What a Bad Boss Is Actually Costing You (SB1881)

Summary

The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: “What a Bad Boss Is Actually Costing You” (SB1881)
Date: August 7, 2026
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy, Josh “OG” Bannerman, CFP
Panelists: Paula Pant (Afford Anything), Mel Abraham (entrepreneur, author, CPA)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the often-overlooked costs—financial, emotional, and career-related—of staying with a bad boss. The hosts and guests share personal stories of toxic management, discuss how bad leadership can undermine your earning potential and well-being, and offer actionable strategies for preparing an exit plan. The conversation is both practical and humorous, packed with real-life examples and advice for anyone dealing with workplace nightmares or considering their own leadership style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Stories of Bad Bosses

The episode opens with panel members recalling their worst boss experiences, setting the stage for a frank discussion about workplace toxicity.

• Paula’s Story (10:40):

  • As a kayaking guide in Hilton Head, her boss publicly yelled at her for a presumed mistake, embarrassing Paula in front of customers.
  • Quote: "My boss looks over, doesn’t realize what I’m doing, assumes that I have not modulated accordingly, and starts yelling at me in front of this entire group, yelling at me in front of the customers. Epic bad boss." (11:54 – 12:14)

• Mel’s Story (13:11):

  • At a consulting firm, Mel had a boss dubbed "Dragon Lady." After submitting his first valuation report, she threw it at him, told him to buy “Elements of Style,” and said a four-year-old could have done better.
  • Quote: "She literally throws it at me and said, this is a piece of crap... No coaching, no explanation, just humiliation and criticism." (13:53 – 14:18)

• OG’s Parody (15:12):

  • OG humorously riffs on the film “Training Day” as a metaphor for bad bosses, before linking back to the real lesson: you learn from both bad and good management styles.

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2. The Real Costs of Working for a Bad Boss

The conversation shifts from stories to consequences, detailing the financial and personal tolls.

• Earning Potential:

  • Bad bosses often block raises/promotions or take credit for your work, limiting your compensation now and compounding losses over time through missed raises.
  • OG: “If you have a crappy boss, you’re probably being taken advantage of from a comp standpoint in some way, shape or form... the compound effect of compensation.” (27:56 – 29:06)

• Emotional Drain & Life Impact:

  • Toxic leadership erodes confidence, sparks stress that spills over into home life, and can dull skills if you stop striving to improve.
  • OG: “You only have so much energy... if you’re fighting this battle... you’re not going to have time or energy to do the other things that provide joy in your life." (27:57 – 29:41)

• Burned Time, Not Just Money:

  • Mel: “Now, you’ve burned that unrenewable resource: time. We can always get more money; we can’t get more time.” (31:47)

• Networking & Confidence Costs:

  • Toxic environments can shrink your network, reduce future career opportunities, and dampen your ambition.

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3. Should You Stay, Try to Fix, or Go?

Joe proposes scenarios and asks panelists if they’d stay, try to fix things, or leave—a practical lens for listeners.

Scenarios & Panel Advice

• Boss Takes Credit for Your Work

  • OG: Injects humor (“malicious compliance”), but the consensus is to use the job as a stepping stone and plot your exit.
  • Paula: “My default answer to pretty much any question you ask is going to be go.” (21:59)
  • Mel: Stay only long enough to acquire new skills or until you find something better.

• Micromanager Boss

  • Mel: “I can’t deal with that... I’d probably go.” (23:02)
  • Paula: “Zero minutes.” (23:08)

• Great Boss, Dying Company

  • Panel consensus: Most would stay, valuing the day-to-day relationships and camaraderie—until it becomes unsustainable.

• Horrible Boss, Highest Salary

  • Mel: “You probably stay for a little longer than you should.” (25:41)
  • Paula: “Pick a goal, pick an end date...and when you hit that number, time to go.” (26:51)

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4. Preparing Your Exit: Building a Financial & Career “Go Bag”

Practical advice for anyone planning to escape a bad work situation—or just building “career insurance.”

Steps to Take Before Quitting

• Pay off High-Interest Debt:
  • “Start reducing expenses and focus on any debt that has a double digit interest rate.” – (44:41)
• Build Cash Reserves:
  • Save at least six months’ worth of living expenses.
• Lower Fixed Costs:
  • Move to cheaper housing, downgrade your car, minimize recurring commitments. (44:41)
• Upgrade Your Skills:
  • Use employer-provided training/course reimbursement while still employed.
  • Mel: “What skills do you need to be more valuable in the marketplace? What can you get done while you’re still employed—on their dime?” (45:19)
• Develop Your Personal Brand:
  • Focus on reputation and relationships for future opportunities.
  • Mel: “Start to think of yourself as a personal brand and what kind of reputation you can build that precedes you.” (45:19)
• Network Routinely:
  • Don’t wait until you need help; consistently nurture your connections.
  • Mel: “...not going through a Rolodex for transactions, but for a relationship. Because when something happens, they’re going to be more apt to help.” (49:55 – 51:50)
• Apply Elsewhere:
  • Don’t just plan—actively brush up your resume and start job hunting before you need to.
  • OG: “You can prepare till the cows come home, you still have to actually do something...” (46:32)

If You’re Laid Off Suddenly

• Take a breath, don’t panic—some cost reductions can wait.
• Rebuild your budget from zero, starting with true necessities.
• Re-examine all spending; treat nothing as a sacred cow. (52:27 – 54:26)
• If you lack needed skills, find out if you can learn them for free or on the job before spending on education. (55:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bad Managers:
  “She proved why her nickname at the office was Dragon Lady...it was humiliation and criticism.”
  — Mel Abraham (14:06)

• On Cost of Toxic Work:
  “You only have so much energy on a daily basis...you’re not going to have time or energy to do other things that provide excitement or joy in your life.”
  — OG (29:06)

• On Planning Your Exit:
  “Pick a goal, pick an end date—maybe it’s a net worth, maybe it’s a level of savings. And when you hit that number, time to go.”
  — Paula Pant (26:51)

• On Building Relationships:
  “Go through your contact list for a relationship. Not for a transaction...it’s about enriching my life with other people and hopefully enriching theirs.”
  — Mel Abraham (49:55 – 51:50)

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Trivia Segment [33:54–44:21]

Question: How many times did Philippe Petit cross between the Twin Towers in 1974?

• Panel guesses: 4 (Mel), 5 (OG), 6 (Paula).
• Correct answer: 8 times.
• Paula wins the trivia contest!
• Memorable quote as Paula wins: “She’s finally figured, hey, this, this whole thing is actually I can do this.” (44:14)

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Actionable Takeaways

If You Have a Bad Boss:

• Quantify and reflect on both the earning and life satisfaction costs of staying.
• Plot your exit: pay down debt, save cash, upskill, nurture your professional network, and apply elsewhere.
• Don’t wait for a crisis to start your career “go bag”—proactive preparation gives real leverage.

If You Suddenly Lose Your Job:

• Pause before taking drastic actions—inventory your spending and needs from scratch.
• Challenge your assumptions about “must-haves.”
• Seek low-cost/free methods to build marketable skills if needed.

For Leaders and Aspiring Bosses:

• Remember the long-term cost to organizations (and yourself) of bad management—people remember how you make them feel.
• Seek honest feedback, invest in your team’s growth, and focus on positive reinforcement.

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Final Thoughts

Bad bosses cost more than your paycheck—they can drain your energy, confidence, and limit your potential for years to come. Being proactive about your career, finances, and relationships is key whether you’re plotting an escape or simply preparing for the unexpected. As the panel jokes and jabs their way through serious advice, the underlying message is clear: You’re in control. Don’t let a toxic boss decide your future value—start building your next chapter today.

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Panel Info & Further Content

• Mel Abraham: Find his book Building Your Money Machine, podcast, and content at [his site].
• Paula Pant: Listen to her debate with Joe on quitting your job at the Afford Anything podcast.
• OG: Connect for financial planning through stackingbenjamins.com/og.

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Transcript

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[D]

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[C]

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[B]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And just exactly how much money is that bad boss costing you today? We'll quantify that and share strategies to take control of the financial half of your career. But that's not all. Halfway through today's job freedom extravaganza, we'll take a break from my always topical and thrilling trivia question. Will Paula continue to tighten this race? Will OG get back to his winning ways or will team Jesse make the definitive move move to defend his title? And now a guy whose title around here is Mr. Friday show host. Trust me, Joe, that's not what we call you. It's Joe Saul Se High.

[A]

Hey there stackers. And happy Friday to you. I am Joe Sal Sehi and man, are we super happy to do this. I love this topic. As a guy who became an entrepreneur partly because I had some pretty crappy bosses, we're going to be talking about just how much money is that bad boss costing you? And we're going to start with a guy who may or may not have had one or two bad bosses during his long esteemed career. Neighbor Doug, how are you, man?

[B]

I'm fine. Just trying to keep it in the fairway today, Joe. Just. Just trying to stay out of trouble.

[A]

Is that what you used to tell your bosses when you'd still find a way to get into trouble back in the day?

[B]

Because I can't keep my mouth shut. So you.

[A]

Wait a minute. What? I can't believe it.

[B]

This unfiltered mouth and corporate America didn't mesh Nicely.

[A]

That is strange. Do you believe that OG that, that Doug of all people would have had some problems fitting in in corporate America?

[C]

Doug has problems fitting in everywhere, so

[B]

it's not surprising he took it to another level.

[A]

There's the hot take and we were just going to start with a kinder, gentler show, but we're going there.

[C]

How are you today, OG Pretty busy. Yep. Life is good. It's good to be busy. Good to have busyness thrust upon you.

[A]

Now, let's be clear. You haven't had many bosses really though, during your career, right? Did you have a, you have a boss when you're delivering papers? Was that your grandpa?

[C]

Nope.

[E]

Nope.

[C]

I don't believe in bosses. I think they, they all suck, including when I'm the boss. So I suck at being a boss. I suck at having bosses. So this ought to be a pretty good chat. Looking forward to it.

[E]

It should.

[A]

It should be a great chat.

[C]

Basically, it's just OG Sucks. That's going to be the moral of the story as a boss and employee.

[A]

And the show's over. Thanks for showing up, everybody. Glad that you could be here. Actually, you and I did have some pretty wild management teams that we worked with when we were at American Express together. You got to admit, there were some, there were some wild ones.

[C]

OG I don't know, I. I got along with everybody. Maybe, Maybe I was just nicer than you probably.

[A]

Well, everybody thinks that already. But the nicest person on earth is here with us. Paula Pant joins us from Afford Anything. How are you?

[E]

I am fantastic. How are you, Joe?

[A]

Good. Did you get into entrepreneurship because of bad bosses?

[E]

That is not the reason I got into entrepreneurship. Actually. I loved the boss that I had at the time that I worked at the newspaper. But I'm kind of like OG I've had a limited experience with bosses. I basically had one full time job in between. Not basically. I did have one full time job in between when I graduated from college. One job. And then I went into entrepreneurship from there. But when I was in high school and college, those summer jobs, I had some bad bosses there. The summer jobs. Yeah.

[A]

You were training to be in the workforce and your bosses were training how not to do their job.

[E]

Exactly.

[A]

Yes. Well, I thought about this topic, by the way, because it was a piece in Fast Company about what? Bad bosses turnover because of bad bosses. Right. This was written about, listen, you got to be a better boss to keep good employees. But ultimately companies are trying to build a money machine and we're all trying to build money Machines. And this guy who I thought of immediately when I thought of this topic, he goes around the country and helping audiences of entrepreneurs, people working for, quote, the man build their money machine. I thought, you know what? This is the perfect topic for my good friend Mel Abraham. How are you, Mel Joe?

[D]

I am awesome. Just trying to stay cool. I'm out here in Vegas. It's 115 degrees.

[A]

Is it cool by the slot machine? You know, I got to say, Paula usually does this like in the bay in the. Not basement in the first floor, right, Paula, of your building?

[E]

Not usually, but I certainly have a handful of times.

[A]

I got to say I'm a little disappointed, Mel, that you didn't do this from like the casino floor.

[D]

You know what? We had Internet problems here. And they actually said if you come down to the first floor, you got the best Internet in the place. I said, yeah, but then I got the casino in the background, which might have been okay.

[A]

Do you think it's a ploy? Maybe they're just looking to increase their monthly number by getting everybody to go to the floor of the casino. Maybe gamble a little.

[D]

Well, just so everyone knows, maybe tmi. But this morning a pipe broke evidently in this hotel and there were no showers or toilets. And they told us all to go down to the spa and use the spa, so.

[C]

Oh, hey, probably wasn't much of a spa after everybody got done using it though, huh?

[B]

No, like a bathtub in the old west. Right?

[C]

More of a little hole in the ground and some murky water that everybody's showering in. That's. That's awesome.

[A]

Well, we're going to definitely try to make some clarity. We're going to shower this topic. How do I, where do I go with this, Doug? I have no idea. We're going to, we're going to clean this up. We're going to clean up. Your problem with bad bosses. What is it costing you to stay with the boss? It's toxic. We're going to start off with stories of bad bosses from each of our contributors. But before all that, we have a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them. And then Mel og, Paula, Doug and I, we're going to dive into what are bad bosses costing you. How many meetings a day do you take notes in or how many different just events where you have to jot something down? Here's a hill I will die on Granola AI is the best, the best note taking software that is available. I've used a ton and it is by far the best. It's an AI powered notepad and built for the way real people actually meet. Here's how it works. You take rough notes like you normally would and in the background, Granola is securely transcribing the entire meeting. It turns it all into a clean, structured, actually useful group of notes when the meeting ends. The best part? It works through your audio's device, which means you don't have to have any setup. There's no awkward bots, it integrates seamlessly into the stuff that you already use. It's just your normal meeting with superpowers. I absolutely love the output of my meetings and if you want to know how it looks, just either try it for free or write me [e-mail] because if meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no brainer. You can try it totally free by heading to Granola AI slash sb. That's Granola D and get your time back. Here it is again. Try it for free. Granola AI SB Back in my early days of financial planning, buying life insurance was so difficult. And frankly, for a lot of people it still is difficult. But the funny thing is, and not funny haha, but just, I guess, ironic, we all know that we need life insurance and we don't want to overpay for it. We want to get on with our life. We want to, we want it to protect us and then we want to do other things.

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[E]

When I was. It was a summer in between my sophomore and junior year of college. I was, for that summer, living out on Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.

[A]

That's tough.

[E]

It was, yeah, exactly. A tough place to live, but someone's got to do it. I had this job that was supposed to be a really fun summer job job as a kayaking guide. So you would do these two hour, little, like, local kayaking tours where I would take groups of tourists, and we'd point out the wildlife. Like, look, there's an egret. There's a blue heron. That kind of a thing. We had the procedures that we would go through where we would line everybody up, we would give them the safety talk, tell them how to buckle a safety vest, show them how to turn a paddle, that sort of a thing. So this boss. I remember this one particular time, one of the guys in my group, one of the tourists, was in the porta potty. I'm fully aware of this, and I mentally. I am planning around this. So I. I've got the group organized, and I'm starting to make remarks to the group, but I'm in my head thinking, all right, I'm going to make sure that I just make introductory remarks, and I don't say anything. That is, you know, I wait until the guy comes back from the porta potty before I say all of the. The important stuff.

[A]

Just keep everybody engaged.

[E]

Exactly. So I'm in the process of just kind of keeping them engaged. Well, my boss looks over, doesn't realize that that's what I'm doing, assumes that I have not modulated accordingly, and starts yelling at me in front of this entire group, yelling at me in front of the customers. Epic bad boss.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[E]

And the customers felt awkward. You could see it in their faces. Like, they. They looked uncomfortable.

[A]

Did you get big tips that day?

[E]

I think I got average tips that day.

[A]

I was gonna say those are the days when, you know, you see some conflict between boss and employee, you give some. I. I tip the employee a little bit heavier that day. That is absolutely horrible. Like, why does. Why do they think fear is the thing that will help you win? Mel, you've. You've never had a bad boss, I'm sure.

[D]

Never. I'm probably the worst boss of. For myself.

[A]

Well, we got to put you and OG in a match together, apparently, as two guys being bad bosses.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I have not had a lot of jobs other than on my own for A couple of decades. But when I was starting out, I was working at one of the big consulting firms in downtown Los Angeles. I was in the valuation department. And I had a great boss at first, but they transferred them out and left me behind and then put this, this new boss in. And I'm. I'm new. I'm new probably at the company for three years and in that department for a year. And I'm doing valuations. I don't know much about valuations. She asked me to write a report. So I do my very first valuation report, and I thought it was a work of art. And I handed in on a Friday. I come back in on Monday expecting to have some, you know, comments and everything, but I said, so do you get a chance to read the report? And she says yes. She takes my report and she literally throws it at me and said, this is a piece of crap. She says, go buy Strunk and White's book, Elements of Style. Learn how to write. Because this could have been done by a four year old.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah, there's so many ways to tell an employee that too, Mel. You know what I mean? Like this. The Strunk and White thing's not bad advice. It's a good book. It is, but to throw it at you and just put you down.

[D]

She proved why her nickname at the office was Dragon lady just yelled at people. Oh, she did, she did. No coaching, no explanation. Is pretty much humiliation and criticism is it was her method.

[A]

Oh, gee. Humiliation and criticism. You said you're a bad boss. Is those two tactics. You use those in your tool belt?

[C]

Well, I was going to say dragon lady. That was Doug's nickname in college, so

[A]

that's what we call him. He said that they don't call me Friday show host. They call me something else. Yeah.

[C]

You know my worst boss story? Like you said, not too many of them. I don't know if you guys know this or not, but there was a time where I was training to be a detective on the police force, you know, so it's kind of like a recruiting situation. I've got this new boss I'm trying to impress. It's just kind of one of those weird vibes, right, where you're like, something's just not right with this dude. And I realized very quickly he was not interested in training me. He was just testing me, you know, testing whether or not I could do the job or whether or not I would just do whatever he said I would do. And, you know, every time I questioned something it was like, it was my problem, you know, But I was inexperienced. I didn't know how this world worked, of being kind of an undercover police officer. And, you know, at one point in time, he pressures me into taking drugs. Then I'm like, well, this isn't right. He's like, well, what are you going to do? You're a druggie now. I'll just turn you in. And then we go to, like, a friend's house. Like, I thought it was his friend. And turns out it was, like, a big setup situation. There's money everywhere. People are getting shot. It's. This is a crazy scenario. I'm like, what is happening with this whole situation? What, Doug? You don't like my story?

[B]

Well, I just. I didn't know that you worked for Denzel Washington.

[C]

At one point, they made a story about my. My story. They. They made a movie about it. You guys might have seen it.

[B]

Did Ethan Hawke play you?

[C]

Yes, he did. Oh, wow.

[B]

I hope you got some residuals from

[C]

that in Training Day. No, I mean, look, wait a minute.

[A]

Before you go into your. Your actual story, I love that. Just the look on Paula's face the entire time. Wait, I think you had her until the drugs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

I believed you. Right up there.

[C]

Shot this dude in the chest with a shotgun. It was a whole day, let me tell you. It was a training day. Anyways, I had to turn my boss in. And, yeah, it was a whole thing. But no, I mean, look, at the end of the day, if you're a boss or you're aspiring to be a boss or, you know, and because you're all. Even if you don't have the title of being a boss, like, if you're not manager or vice president, as soon as you're not, like, the newest person around, you're setting an example for people. I was having this discussion with somebody about parenting, and because we had the pleasure of being at, you know, at the family cottage for a couple of weeks in Michigan, like we are able to do sometimes in the summertime, and you see all these different dynamics of family members who have kids or your mom and dad, and, you know, you just kind of see this all laid out in front of you. And I think parenting, the job of a. Of a parent or as. As you grow to be a parent, is to think about all of the things that worked with you.

[E]

Right?

[C]

Like, oh, you know, what, that. That example that dad gave or that lesson that I learned and how he taught it. That was. That landed pretty Good. I'm gonna do that. And then there's probably a few lessons that you're like, that was a really bad way to teach that lesson. I'm definitely not gonna do that to my kids. This is true. I think when you're, you know, working in your career, you're just kind of moving up in your career. You see good things and you see not so good things. You see how to interact with customers and clients and how to interact with team members. And your job, as you kind of move up the ranks, so to speak, is to say, you know what? That was a good lesson. That was an interesting way to deliver that lesson. I'm going to use that. I'm going to put that in the repertoire. Or, you know, crumpling up the paper and telling me I'm a worthless POS and go get, you know, that was maybe didn't land. You know, I'm probably not going to do that one.

[A]

Well, and that is interesting because for the people that are bosses out there, I mean, this is what this Fast Company piece is all about. Not the focus for us today, but I'll link to it in the show notes. Mel, how much longer did you stay with that person as a boss? Were you already mentally checked out and ready to leave?

[D]

Yeah, I was ready. I was ready to leave. The bottom line is what I ended up doing is planning my escape is I looked at and said, what do I need to acquire here from a skill set to prepare me to find something better? Because I, I, there was no way that we were going to get along because I lost respect for her as a boss. And so I was there just about a year before I ended up leaving.

[A]

Just about a year longer, but definitely longer than six more months.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Right, Paula, Sorry.

[E]

That took took me a moment to figure out what Joe was referencing, where he's going on the Afford Anything podcast. You will hear, you will hear what Joe is referencing. And it was out.

[A]

You'll hear us disagree. Paul is like, take the jump now. I was like, no, take six months and plan it. But yeah, but seriously, Paula, how, how much longer did you have that job? Did you have that boss before you were doing something different?

[E]

I, I, I stayed with that kayaking company through the summer, but it was one of those deals where every morning you would call him to see if he had enough work for you. Because whether or not he had enough work for all of the guides depended on how many people booked tours. And so I kind of gradually started tapering off. Cause I was cobbling together Other summer work as well. So I kind of gradually started tapering off, doing fewer and fewer shifts per week there and more and more shifts per week at some of my other jobs.

[A]

You got to work at the Salty Dog, right?

[E]

I did. I was the Salty Dog.

[A]

She was the Salty Dog.

[E]

I put on a dog mascot costume and danced around $25 an hour. I was the mascot.

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[B]

Paula was a dancer. Do you tell people that sometimes? Like, yes, I've been a dancer in my. But hot, you could say, oh, I was a hot dancer. It was because I was in a

[E]

super hot costume in South Carolina in the summer.

[A]

It was so hot. So hot. You know, there's some situations that you have with your boss. And the first thing we can do, although we all admit that this part of the discussion, not our expertise, but we've also been around lots of bosses. We've interviewed some of the smartest people on earth about these same things. So it's not like we haven't studied this a ton. Give me your opinion of these scenarios in which you're going to do one of three things. You're either going to stay or you're going to fix it or you're going to go. All right, so I'm going to give you a scenario. You tell me whether you're staying, fix it or go. Oh, gee, Boss takes credit for everything. You stay, fix it or go. They're taking credit for all your work product.

[C]

Can I have a fourth option? Malicious compliance.

[A]

Oh, what does that mean?

[C]

Oh, they're going to take credit for everything. You make sure that maybe the credit they take isn't so great.

[D]

Wow, sabotage, you mean?

[B]

That's right.

[C]

You know, a little. Just a little repartee, as they say,

[A]

who needs to quit when you can get fired?

[B]

Or it's the kid who got grounded and they took the car key keys away. So they just make sure that they have a lot of things that require being driven. So it just hoses the parents because they have to drive the kid everywhere. There is that, like, all right, fine.

[C]

You know, there's the report that the boss takes and says, this is my work. And then the bigger boss is asking questions about the report, and you can tell they're, you know, he's kind of deflecting to you, and you just go, you know, I'm not really sure about that one. Doug. What. What did you think about that when you analyzed the inventory? What did you. What did you come up with?

[A]

You could tell by that answer just how little Time OG Spent in corporate America.

[C]

You should analyze inventory, Doug.

[B]

You only get to do that once. OG yes.

[A]

Do it once and make it really, really good. Paula, Stay, fix it or go. When the boss is taking credit for all the work product, I mean, my.

[E]

My default answer to pretty much any question you ask is going to be go. I'm trying to think of how you could fix it. If otherwise it's. The situation is great and that's the only thing, then it's probably fixable. Yeah, but if there are other, you know, if. If that is like one of many symptoms, then it's not.

[A]

Mel.

[E]

I.

[D]

Here's my thinking is that I'm probably not the only person they're taking credit for. And that means that it's known that they do that. And I'm going to get comfortable with it and the job becomes a stepping stone to getting out. But I want to learn what I can from it. So I'm not going to try and fix it because it's probably part of their behavior on an ongoing basis. I might try to make them aware of it and see what it does, but I'll probably live with it until I know that I've got something better or I've got a plan in place.

[A]

Much like you said earlier. Plot your escape. You start plotting your escape. Yeah, let's stick with you. Boss is a huge micromanager.

[D]

Oh, man, I can't deal with that. Give me some space to operate. So I probably would go.

[E]

In that case, Paula, I would definitely go. I would last for zero minutes.

[A]

Oh, gee.

[C]

Oh, just to be contrarian. Fix it. I mean, if you've got an opportunity to. You can manage up too, right? Can't you?

[A]

Well, let me ask you about this one because this is an interesting one. Let's say that you love your boss, but it's a dying company.

[C]

Love.

[A]

Or you could. No, no.

[C]

Like more than a friend.

[B]

It's okay to love your boss, not just love your boss.

[C]

Like more than a friend.

[A]

Not the relationship you got to report to.

[D]

What you mean.

[C]

Okay, like the Nicole Kidman movie? Like that kind of love or not exactly.

[A]

No, not that kind of love. Just. You've got a fantastic boss, but you can see the writing on the wall. The company is dying. Stay. Because of the great boss.

[C]

I mean, again, malicious compliance. I don't know. Like. Yeah, I mean, I'd probably hang out and see what's. Because I think the thing with work is that a lot of it is about relationship. You know, it's about trying to make sure. That the people you hang out with, because you're there eight hours, nine hours, 10 hours a day. Right. You know, four, five, six, seven days a week, you kind of want to like the people you hang out with. So if you've got somebody that you like hanging out with and everybody gets along, you know, you gotta keep your network going, right. So it's like if it's doing that little number, you know, you don't want to bail and then get blacklisted. So you just kind of hang out and maybe the boss will drag you along to the next deal.

[A]

Is that what you do, Paula? Great boss dying company.

[E]

I'd stay. Yeah. There's research that shows that your. The probability of which you like or dislike your work is very, like, highly correlated with your opinion of your boss. So even if the company's dying, if you. If you love the boss, you're probably really enjoying that work.

[A]

It's like your boss and the five people, the five people around you. Your little team is corporate culture. Mel.

[D]

I think. I think I fight side by side with the boss to try and turn it around, see what I could do. I'm loyal to a fault, so I probably stick around and do what I can.

[A]

How about this one? Let's swap that completely. Melissa, you have a rotten boss. The dragon lady is your boss. But you've got the highest salary of anybody in your department. You're the highest paid employee, and you're at the top. You go to Glassdoor. You go to Glassdoor, right, To compare salaries, and you're at the top of your area.

[D]

So you're asking if I can be bought.

[A]

I didn't think about it that way, but yes, probably is.

[D]

You know, I probably stay for a little longer than I should. There comes a time where you start to say the quality of my life, the quality of my experience is as OG was saying, that you're spending so much time there matters. But I know for a fact that I've kept clients longer than I should have. I've stayed in places long and relationships longer than I should have because there was some benefit that I was getting. But at some point, that train runs its course.

[A]

What if your boss is horrible, but your co workers are awesome? Like, you love the other people that you work with, Take them with you. Oh, there we go.

[D]

You can separate the relationship with the colleagues. Separate and apart from the. The business part, the career part. And I think that. That I would try to keep those relationships separate, that they're not conditioned on the fact that we work in the same place.

[A]

I like that. It's what Tom Peters calls brand you. Right. And you're surrounding yourself with great people. Paula, back to the first one. You've got the highest salary that you can imagine having, but your boss just sucks.

[E]

I feel like you're describing a lot of people in the fire movement right now. A lot of them are high income but dissatisfied at work.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

And so I think the approach there is pick a goal, pick an end date. Maybe it's a literally a date, maybe it's a net worth, maybe it's a level of savings. But pick a number, make that your number, and then when you hit that number, time to go, then get the heck out.

[A]

Would you say that's probably longer than 6? But no, I'm kidding. People gotta go.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, you gotta listen to this debate between Joe and myself.

[A]

People gotta go. Listen to that episode on the Afford Anything podcast. Oh, gee. You know, it strikes me there's so many things like, you know, like Mel said, I may stay longer than I should because of the salary or because I have the great boss, whatever the thing might be. But having a bad boss, we don't think enough about what that costs you. What are some of the costs that you think of as a money guy that play into it when you have a bad boss for too long?

[C]

It doesn't seem to me that you would have a bad boss that pays you appropriately. That doesn't seem like a normal scenario unless.

[A]

Well, then raises too then.

[D]

Right?

[A]

I mean, that's what I'm saying.

[C]

Like you're asking about total cost. I'm saying like, if you have a crappy boss, you're probably being taken advantage of from a comp standpoint in some way, shape or form. So certainly the compound effect of compensation, and I wouldn't even think about that as being the biggest thing. You know, you only have so much energy on a daily basis. Right. And if you're fighting this battle of trying to get your you know what to work because it sucks the life out of you, you're not going to have time or energy to, to do the other things that do provide excitement or joy in your life, like work out or eat healthy or have a great relationship at home or all the other stuff that has to go on to make your life fulfilling. I think it's a bigger issue than just monetary cost. I think it would just kind of leech into all the other areas of your life and make it just kind of crappy overall. You know, it's like if you don't fuel correctly when you work out, right. And Joe, you know this like if you're on a training run, right? Let's say you're training for another marathon, you get all of your fixed in your body and you can do another marathon, right? Bionic everything. You're ready to rock and roll.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so you're out on a training run, you just do a 13 mile run, right. You know, you gotta fuel your body appropriately or else what happens? You make it through, you don't perform very well and then you get home and you eat everything in sight. You have 17 bananas, 47 Oreos, two peanut butter sandwiches, and then you go, I don't understand why I'm not losing any weight. I'm working my ass off. It's because, you know, you didn't fuel yourself correctly. So if you're at work and you're not getting fueled correctly with great work or great relationships or whatever, you're going to, you know, on the other side of that, be destructive in the other areas of your life, whether it's just relationships or health or whatever the case may be.

[A]

That's interesting.

[C]

Yeah, I mean that's my take anyway. I don't know that it's, that's not based on any.

[A]

Well, no.

[C]

Oh gee. Science, that's just. Well, I guess it is OG science. It doesn't make it real science. It's just OG science.

[A]

But I don't think we think about that. You know, we think about separation of work and home. And yet I'm rereading this classic management book, the Goal that I've read several times. And during this book it spills over. The bad things that happen at work all spill over at home. It all spills over. I got a magic Paula that's also networking, right? It spills over in your networking, spills over in your confidence. What does all that cost?

[E]

Yeah, there are high costs. It's a two way street. Problems at home spill over into work. Problems at work spill over into home. It's hard having a 360 degree life.

[A]

I'm thinking your skills might even atrophy a little bit because you're not, you're not thinking about it like you know, the only reason, Mel, that you're picking up the, the, the Strunk and Weight book is, is because your boss told you to. It's not because you're trying to get better at your job. So your skills might not be what they should be.

[D]

Yeah, it affects everything and things that we don't see. And I Think OG was the one that was saying some of this too, is that, yeah, your skills start to atrophy, your confidence starts to wane because all of a sudden you don't think you're worth that, you don't own your value. So you're not negotiating your raises, you're not taking a strong position because you're coming from a place of I'm not worthy, so this is all I can get. So you stay in a job longer than you should and you take less than you should and you take more abuse than you should. And now all of a sudden you've spent years. And I know someone in particular who literally spent 30 years unappreciated in a job and unvalued in a job thinking that they could never go to another place until they finally did in the last six years and saw, wow, what a difference. It's like that splinter you have that's festering and you don't realize how much it's paining you. And I think that it will can really cost you if it is eroding the quality of your life and confidence from a salary and career standpoint.

[A]

And I love that point because now, Mel, you've burned that unrenewable resource time. We could always get more money. We can't get more time. Well, you know what, in the first half of this I wanted to go over bad bosses and really what it's costing you and the thoughts around how to get away from bad bosses to begin stackers. If you're in this position or if someday you may be in this position to be able to begin to navigate, we're going to ramp this up in the second half. What our money geeks are phenomenal at is helping you on the financial side build your plan. We're going to talk about all the things you need to think about before you hit the escape hatch. But we have at the halfway point of every Friday stacking Benjamin show this amazing and amazing has a lot of different, different definitions. Amazing trivia competition between Paula, OG and Jesse Kramer and Mel, today you're playing on team Jesse Kramer and that means there's some good news and some bad news, my friends. You want the good news or the bad news?

[D]

I'm probably going first actually.

[A]

Even though Jesse's the defending champ, he is going second because OG got out in front of and it's been a game of catch up for both Jesse and Paula. So for you today, we need to know the score to find out where you're going. So what's the score so far, Doug?

[B]

Well, Mel, today you are in the pursuit vehicle in OG's Training Day movie that we're all in right now. Because OG has 10 points, you're in second place with eight points. And Paula's not giving up. She's got six points. So it is still anybody's game this year.

[A]

And imagine what it could be after. Well, no matter what. What it's going to be after today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So many storylines with just what now we're coming up on four months to go. Four and a half months to go. All right. Oh, geez. Going to go first. Mel's going to go second. Paula gets to go third. I would call that a huge advantage, but it hasn't been so far, so who knows? But we need a question, Doug. What are we talking about this week?

[B]

Well, hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. August 7th marks probably the second craziest stunt in modern history. The first is doing a podcast live on YouTube, something I wouldn't recommend trying at home. After all, I'm a trained professional. But in a close second place was this. In 1974, French high wire artist Philippe Pettit illegally stretched a steel cable between the twin towers of New York's World Trade center and then walked across it. He walked across it. Now, look, I'm not gonna lie. Even though I'm a pro at podcasting live, something that is very, very dangerous, I assure you, just getting halfway between those twin towers would have been enough for me. Then I'd probably turn around, walk right back to where I came from. I mean, walking all the way across, that's just a bridge too far. I'll admit it. I get nervous climbing the ladder to clean Joe's mom's gutter. Last year, I'm. I made it to the third rung and decided to update my will. In case you're wondering, no, you can't have the El Camino. I bequeath that to the valet at the Sizzler. Pettit made a pretty big show of his antics up there. He spent nearly 45 minutes on that wire performing for the crowd below and the police officers waiting to arrest him when he finally came down. So here's today's trivia question. How many times did Philippe Pettit cross between the twin towers that morning? I'll be back right after I see if my life insurance covers extremely avoidable decisions.

[A]

I can't wait to see what he comes back with.

[D]

All right.

[A]

Oh, I accidentally put Mel in the hot Seat. We got to put OG in the hot seat. So how many times did Mr. Petit daredevil man go back and forth between

[C]

the twin towers, and for clarity purposes, this was the singular event that he did. This was not spanning multiple events. You're. You're talking about the one day, one time, one day.

[B]

He happened August 7, 1970.

[C]

There is one coming back is two.

[A]

Is two.

[C]

There is three there four, et cetera, et cetera.

[A]

Okay, that's right.

[C]

Well, I mean, you guys, I know everybody's gonna laugh about this, but interestingly enough, this guy's from my hometown, so. And I do think it's a little unfair because also, Paul is in New York, so there's a little bit of. She probably knows this also, but PETA, we called him Andy. I don't know what his first name really was, but we called him. We called him Andy. And he made a big deal of this. It was quite a show. And then when he got older, he talked about it, you know, did little. He would, like, do it, like, in the park. Anyways, everybody knows he went five times because he went and then he came back, and then he went again, and then he came back, and then he went again. Was like, okay, I'm good. That's five.

[A]

Is that what five times mean? They're back, they're back.

[C]

They're back. They're back there.

[A]

I'm glad you defined.

[C]

Well, like, as you said, he was performing, and then he was like, okay, the cops are over there. The funny story was he was actually. He was actually like. Tried to get the cops to move. Like, he'd be like, I'm over here. And then he'd run back to the other side, like, oh, psych him over here. And then finally, the New York cops were like, wait a second. We'll just put people on both sides. And then after that, he was like, okay, cool.

[A]

So I'm sure Doug will verify that that's a true story. It was five times Mel. Og says five. What do you think about that number?

[D]

I'm guessing now? I'm saying 250, 300ft between the towers. 45 minutes up there. I'm doing math. You know, there's probably a wind.

[A]

I.

[D]

You know, it was probably four times.

[A]

Four times. All right, Paula, we got four, we got five.

[C]

Wow.

[E]

There are two ways I could take this. So on one hand, are you gonna

[A]

know mansplain above and below to us,

[C]

there's a four and a five guys. So I can either pick six or three.

[A]

It would have been different. Trivia. If it was four and a half.

[C]

I don't know if you guys know this or not, but six is greater than five and three is less than four.

[B]

Yeah, Joe, she's not mansplaining. She's shelaborating.

[A]

She laborating.

[C]

She laborating.

[E]

Well, Doug, when you first asked your question, I imagined that he walked out to the middle and then just performed a show from the middle, which would mean he would cross only one time, possibly. Right? So when you first asked the question, I was like, well, this has gotta be a trick question because that's still on the table.

[B]

That's not. That is a possibility of how things unfolded. Unless you believe og.

[E]

So that is one possibility. On the other hand, if I took the over, I would capture so much

[C]

more upside, including 1700 trips where he had to just run nonstop for 45 minutes.

[E]

Man, I'm going to take the over. I'm going to take the over. So six, six times.

[A]

That's the way it works. Four, five, and six. Who's got this? We're gonna find out. Just a minute. We spend a lot of time making smart financial decisions, but here's one that doesn't get nearly enough attention. Your water. Think about it. We obsess about the ingredients in our food. We compare investment fees down to the tiniest fraction of a percent. And then a lot of us just assume whatever comes out of the tap, well, I'm just gonna drink it. Here's a surprising statistic. Three out of four U.S. homes of potentially harmful contaminants in their tap water. And even when water looks perfectly clear, it can contain things like chlorine, lead forever, chemicals, and even microplastics. When I was in college, I worked for a group that would go out and do water testing. And the different things we'd find even in city waters just blew me away back then. And the sad news is, in many cities, we haven't had any change to our infrastructure. It's safe enough to pass quality standards, but is it what you really want to drink? This is why I was interested when I learned about Aqua True. Aqua True is a countertop water purifier that's been tested and certified to remove 84 contaminants. It's patented four stage reverse osmosis system goes way beyond standard pitcher and refrigeration filters. The best part, no plumbing, no installation. Just cleaner water from a system sits right on your counter. Aqua True has been featured in Business Insider and Popular Science. Good Housekeeping named it the best countertop water filter plus, 98% of customers say their drinking water is cleaner, safer and healthier. Go to aquatrue.com now for 20% off your purifier using promo code stacking. Aquatrue even comes with a 30 day best tasting water guarantee. That's aquatrue.com spelled A Q U A T R U.com promo code stacking. There's nothing like the American Express platinum card. Find out your welcome offer after you apply, which could be as high as175,000 points. Learn more and find out your offer at americanexpress.comexplorer-platinum Terms apply.

[E]

All right.

[A]

Oh, gee. You opened up with five, and I don't think they actually meant to sandwich you, but that' end product of what happened.

[C]

You feel life goal for a lot of people, actually. But

[B]

you cannot tee it up for him like that.

[C]

Joe, you would be surprised at how many solicitations I get in a weekly basis. Out of curiosity, Paula, because I was toying with the idea of six just to play the game. Would you have taken seven if I picked six?

[E]

Honestly, I was hoping that Mel would go higher than you because I was angling. I. There is a part of me that really thinks the answer is one and that this is a trick question. So if Mel had gone over, then I would have taken the under. But then with him taking four, and then I was like, well, if I did take the under, I'm really boxing myself into a tiny number.

[D]

Which is exactly why I took the under.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Was to try to get one too

[D]

small of a gap. But I could capture one if it was just one.

[E]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[C]

I thought about one also, just to put everybody on tilt. But then it's either one or none, Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

He fell to his death. The answer is zero times

[B]

too soon.

[C]

Nah.

[A]

Well, we're not playing Price is Right rules, so depending on how close they got to you. But yeah, if you anchored them at one, then it was going to be difficult. Let's see who's right. Is it Mel taking the downside? Four below OG with five on the nose, or Paula, anything above six, who's got it? Doug.

[B]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm world famous podcasting daredevil and guy who has his insurance agent on speed dial, Joe's mom's neighbor. Doug, before the break, I asked you how many times Philippe, sorry, Andy Pettit crossed between the twin towers. Now, here's the crazy part. He didn't just walk across. He laid down. He danced. He knelt to admire the view. Even Saluted the police who were waiting to arrest him. See, that's where he lost me. The first crossing, yeah, amazing. The second, still pretty incredible. But eventually you're not doing it for personal growth, self actualization and enlightenment anymore. Dude, you're an attention hound. You're like, hey, look at me. I can walk like 9,000ft in the air. Like, come on, man, just go to the community pool and show off your back hair like the rest of us. I mean, after a while, even the pigeons had to be saying, buddy, we get it. Let's move this along. So how many times did old Philippe walk back and forth between the twin towers? Well, the correct answer was 4 more times than what Mel guessed. 3 more times than what OG guessed, just 2 more times than what Paula guessed, making Paul as today's winner because the correct answer is eight crossings. Unbelievable.

[A]

What is going on here? Doug, what is going on with this mid season surge from Paula Pant Nuts?

[D]

She's on a run.

[A]

No idea. And we can't blame it. Like we were early on. Like we had Sarah Catherine Gutierrez and she got you two points at the start of the year. So we did blame it for a while and you had some great people who filled in. But you've been doing this all on your own, right?

[E]

It only took a few years, but I'm starting to catch on.

[A]

She's finally figured, hey, this, this whole thing is actually I can do this.

[E]

Little bit of a late bloomer, but

[A]

I get there gaining confidence. And you know why you have confidence is because you don't. Don't have a bad boss. Because you don't have a bad boss. So that segue, Paula, let's help people build their escape plan. Your boss isn't changing. Your company ain't changing. What should a stacker begin doing today to get that exit plan Mel was talking about?

[E]

Pay off any high interest debt that means anything with a double digit interest rate. Save. I know this is cliche advice, but save cash reserves like six months worth of your spending at minimum. Keep your fixed costs as low as possible. So for example, if you're a renter, when you go to renew your lease, if you're living in a place that's kind of expensive, downsize. Get a much cheaper place. If you've got a car payment, get rid of it and buy a clunker that has no payment associated with it that you can just buy in cash. All of that's going to give you the bandwidth to be able to leap.

[A]

Mel, what do you add to that?

[D]

I Totally agree with everything she said, having the margin and all that. I think there's a couple things to prepare if you can, and that is first off, what skills do you need to be more valuable in the marketplace to start creating something to build skills and value? The second thing I think this is something that every employee or everyone should be thinking about is, is that start to think of yourself as a personal brand and what kind of reputation can you build that precedes you, the things you do and how you do things, and all of that allows you to be more marketable for the next opportunity and entitled to a larger compensation. So I think beyond the financial elements that Paula just said, start to look at your skill sets, the value in the marketplace, the things that people are paying for, what things can you get done while you're still employed? On their dime, if you will, so you're more qualified and more valuable to get in the marketplace. You'll get your job faster and you get paid more.

[A]

That's interesting. So if HR allows you to, let's say courses at a local college or university and they will subsidize that training, you're saying go for that first?

[D]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

OG what else are you adding to that?

[C]

My biggest one is not necessarily preparation, but just actually doing something, taking action. If you're working at a company, unless it's some very specialized work that you do and your environment sucks, friggin like put your application somewhere else. Like what are you doing? Like why are we wasting any time? I'm not saying you need to quit your job tomorrow, but probably unless you're like super high up. Although I don't know the, I don't know this to be true, I just think it is. You're probably not getting a bunch of like recruiting phone calls along the way. You have to go actively do something to facilitate the change. And I think preparation is a really good idea. But you can prepare till the cows come home. You still have to like brush up your resume and post that thing on a job site, you know, I mean, you still need to hire a recruiter and get out there and start shopping jobs. Now if you transition to being an entrepreneur, that's maybe a little different. I, I mean, obviously different circumstances, I get all that, but my goodness, just do something different. Put a stake in the ground and friggin go.

[A]

And this is interesting because as Mel was talking about, you know what, look at what skills in the marketplace are. I feel like even if you have a good boss right now, shouldn't we be doing Those things today.

[D]

Yeah, Yeah, I think we should.

[A]

It just, to me makes a. Makes a bunch of sense that my boss changes tomorrow. I need to. It's almost like, Paula, we talk about having a go bag, right?

[D]

Ye.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

What is your go bag? Well, maybe, you know, let's call it career insurance. Let's say that your job's fine now, but you might get a new boss tomorrow. What are some of the things you should be doing today as career insurance to make sure that you're more ready to go when the bell rings?

[E]

I think it's everything that we've just discussed. It's high savings, low debt, and keep building your skill set.

[A]

How much do you think mentors play into this?

[E]

Mentors are important, but often mentorship isn't something real. Mentorship isn't something that's formalized. It isn't some program that a company or a professional organization starts. For a true mentorship to form, it has to be an organic bond. And it often happens almost unconsciously. Like, I think there's a very innate human drive to teach and to learn. And so if you're connected to a handful of people and they. They see you kind of as a younger version of themselves, and, you know, you recognize that they've got something to teach and they recognize that you are a worthy protege, I think that sort of happens naturally.

[A]

It is interesting, though, because I feel like we start thinking about that stuff when we start thinking about changing careers and doing it sooner is probably a great idea. Mel, I want to shine a light on something that you do, which I have always admired about you, my friend, which is that you obviously already work for yourself. You're always looking, though, for business opportunities. And I think that when we talk about brand you, to me, you espouse a lot of that. I get a text from Mel maybe once every three months. Let's put it this way. I get a text from Mel often enough to know it isn't luck and it's not happenstance. You know, salespeople call it the Rolodex. They might call it now the CRM. Right, the. The customer relationship management. Mel, can you give us a little bit of that secret sauce? Because you're not looking for a new boss, but you're certainly always looking for a new opportunity.

[D]

I'm always looking for an opportunity to serve because that's kind of like my love language, if you want to call it that. It's just to matter. And so one practice I have, every single morning, I take my dogs for a four mile walk. And on that four mile walk, my time is spent thinking about the things I'm grateful for, but also the people that are in my life or around that I want to connect more with. And I literally will send a text or a video or an audio to them from that walk. And I do that as a practice probably three to four times a week to different people that I want to keep good contact because it's so easy to allow the text or the distance, the tyranny of distance to get between that relationship and you and I. We had some time to chat before and I go, we can go along our path and continue to have a friendship or a relationship, not with any idea of some transaction down the road, but just by virtue of enriching my life with other people and me hopefully being able to enrich their life and staying in contact and deepening that. And so I made it a practice to do that on a regular basis. And I have that time and space in my day because of the way my day is structured to make that happen. I know some people that will do something similar and they'll just pick one day out of the week and they'll pick one or two people on that day to make sure that they're going to contact. Not going through a Rolodex for transactions, but to go through, if there's such a thing anymore, a phone book or a contact list for a relationship. Because when something happens and you need to make a change or you want to make a change, then you, you might say, hey man, do you know of anyone? And they're going to be more apt to help because it's not that they owe you, it's because they care about you and you've got that relationship.

[A]

It is interesting because if you did do it when you needed something, then it is, then it feels transactional, you know what I mean? It is completely. And it's only at times like these that we're talking about today that a lot of the time people will reach out is because of the fact like, oh, I, I finally need something. So it's better to have that parachute ahead of time. Oh gee, when somebody, let's say a stacker got laid off yesterday, we talked about the things that they needed to do to get ready to leave. What are the things we need to do right after we leave the company?

[C]

Well, if it's a sudden change and you said laid off, I think the initial instinct is to like burn everything to the ground, like, oh my God, I gotta cancel everything, I gotta, you Know, and I think the, the reality is, is probably you can go just a skosh slower than that. Take a breath, slow down on your decision making. It doesn't mean you don't have to make any changes. But I think you've got just a smidge more time than you gotta do everything by nightfall. But I think it does make sense to kind of inventory everything. When we talk about budgeting, you know, it seems like everybody's got like, things that are in the budget that are unmovable. The proverbial sacred cows that were, you know, I can't, you know, I can't do that. Like I gotta have the, you know, whatever. And when you have radical change, you know, everything needs to be on the table. Everything needs to be built up from scratch, from the bottom. And you start with housing and food and, you know, you know, like shelter, really, food and utilities, you know, water and electricity basically. And you start building it around there. And as you're able, you can add those so called luxuries back in. But when you stop looking at things and saying, I have to have my car and instead say, I need transportation to work, that changes the mental image a little bit of, well, that's a little different. That could be, you know, a bus, that could be subway. Right. You know, Paulie, you don't have a car. You live in New York City. It's not unheard of to not have a car. In fact, it's probably more obnoxious to have a car. Right?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

And so.

[E]

Especially in Manhattan. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Scoreboard. So if you're like, okay, if you, I don't have the money for the subway, well, then you're walking or you're going to bicycle. You know, like, there's a lot of ways to get around. You know, it would be different in the suburbs of Dallas, obviously, than in New York City. So I think the biggest thing is recognizing that, A, you've got a few minutes to, to take a breath and then B, as you're building life back up, you can have to start everything from scratch and evaluate everything piece by piece.

[A]

There is a tendency, though, having been through this with a lot of clients back in the day, Paula, for people to kind of panic. And I love what OG said, take your time, don't do rash things. But to Mel's point, you also might not have the skill set that you hope that you have. Now is a great time for training. Let's say you have that emergency fund in place, that great six months emergency fund. But you realize, man, if I had These skills, if I had XYZ skills, I would be more marketable. Is it more important to preserve your ability to eat another day or to gain those skills? So do you take the class and pay the fee or do you not take the class, hope that you can get hired someplace to begin bringing money in and instead preserve your liquidity?

[E]

Well, I would start with the question, is the class necessary to gain the skill? There are certain skills that you can gain by either YouTube university by teaching yourself, by doing, by working as an assistant or an intern for somebody else. Like there are a whole bunch of skills that you can learn either for free or learn by doing. And depending on what skill it is. I would start by asking the question, is this something that I can learn on my own in one of those other ways?

[A]

It's interesting, Mel, because I think this is what you do with your CPA background too is what OG and Paula both talked about was a little bit of challenging assumptions. It sounds like challenging assumptions should be a big part of what you're, what you're doing now that you're laid off.

[D]

Absolutely. I heard someone talk, it was a really interesting idea of this realization of what we've done because of the Internet. Because the Internet puts the most popular things at the top of the list when you do a search doesn't mean that they're right. But what it's doing is the Internet. If it's going to list out all the most popular search results based on a question you ask and you don't ask a, a challenging question, you're going to get the most popular answers, which basically means that it's confirmation bias to begin with. And if we're not going to challenge assumptions or start critically thinking saying what's a better way? And I love what OG said. He said if we were going to rebuild this from the ground up zero based I need transportation. That doesn't mean that it's the car, it could be the bus, it could be walking. That we start to look at the things that are in our life, that we are taken for granted and believing that that's the only way. And when we start to challenge it, we might see that there's a better way to do things and it's actually better for us and it's going to move us even further. So I think that critical thinking and assumption challenges are huge. Especially when you have these life changing events that get you to start thinking differently about well, where do I want to go and why.

[A]

That's an interesting answer, Mel. Especially with your CPA background. You know, CPAs challenge the math, but challenging the assumptions gives you much, much better. Like, do we need to do the math in the first place? What math should we truly be doing? I'd love that. And I think that's a great place to end. Let's find out what's going on, where all of you are. Not only is Mel on stages, like I said at the start of the show, and has a book called Building your money machine, but he also has a podcast where he talks about building your money machine. So what's coming up on the building your money machine podcast?

[D]

Well, you've got a couple of episodes coming up. Challenging assumptions about.

[A]

Excellent.

[D]

The fact that retirement isn't an asset game, it's a cash flow game. And if we don't understand how that dynamic plays out, then we're not ready to retire.

[A]

Free cash flow is everything, right?

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. OG what do you got going on this weekend, my friend?

[C]

It is the final weekend before everybody goes back to school.

[A]

Party weekend at the OG house.

[C]

Then it is a little bit of chaos and then a week from now is Alex goes back to A and M. So we go back to a two kid household instead of a three in a week.

[A]

It goes too fast though, doesn't it?

[C]

We'll see.

[A]

Spoken like a dad. Paula Pant, besides you and I arguing over whether it's one month or six months, what's coming up on the afford anything show?

[E]

Well, that actually I would direct everyone to that episode. So the title of that episode is should we retire in our 40s with 4 million. But the question where Joe and I really like go to blows is not that question. It's the middle question of the episode. A caller named Olivia has a side hustle. She's got proof of concept. She's been growing side hustle for a while. She's got a six month emergency fund. Should she quit her job? Joe and I like. So this is the first like rough and tangle that we've done in a while.

[C]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

We've had a few, but this is the first one in a long time and it's one of those rare episodes where you can hear Paula Pant be wrong. It's really cool. And that's at the afford anything podcast.

[D]

What if you were both wrong?

[A]

Oh, come on, Mel.

[D]

I'm just saying, I mean, you know, challenge assumptions. Right?

[A]

That is, that is. That is a good point. Well, go listen to it, Mel, and tell me. Write me. That's your next time. Walking your dog. That's your mission. All right. Hey, thanks to you Stackers for hanging out with us. All of you who hung out with us today and made the show on YouTube. We're generally here Mondays at 3:30 Eastern Time. Do the math on when you are in wherever, whatever part of the country, the world that you're in, we'd love to have you. We love seeing some of the comments and we love helping people live as they watch the show. But if you know somebody who is either has a bad boss or man they are looking for the exit, give them this episode as well. All right, that's going to do it for today. Except this. Doug, you're bringing a home man. What should we have learned on today's episode?

[B]

Well Joe, first, take some advice from our special panelist Mel Abraham. You should always be looking for ways to create your own personal brand. What's different about both your skill set and how you do your work that makes you more marketable? Second, if you're in an untenable position with your boss or job, don't forget Paula's advice on what to do to prepare yourself for quitting. Start reducing expenses and focus on any debt that has a double digit interest rate. But the big lesson, don't let Joe's mom hear that you only made it to the third rung of the ladder while cleaning gutters last year. Now she knows the gutters never got cleaned and she'll double dog dare you to get to rung number four. It's a double dog dare. I mean what am I gonna do? I gotta take her up on it. Thanks to Mel Abraham for joining us today. You'll find Mel's book building your money machine wherever books are sold. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her San Fran Tabulous podcast afford anything wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks also to OG for joining us. Looking for good financial planning help? Head to stackingbenjamins.com OG for his calendar. This show is the property of Esme Podcast LLC, copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Salsihai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for any entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[E]

From Geico Subconscious News, I'm Tammy Racing thoughts broadcasting from your brain. Tonight's top worry. If something happens to your apartment and you need to, like, stay in a hotel and pay for it. That would be crazy, right? Art Palpitations has more.

[A]

That would be crazy, Tammy. But you got surprisingly affordable renters insurance through Geico, so it could be covered, giving you peace of mind.

[E]

Aw, I love a story that ends well.

[A]

Next up, love stories. Are they all they're cracked up to be?

[E]

It feels good to worry less. It feels good to Geico Granger knows. When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24.

[C]

7 support.

[E]

Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it.