What to Build After You Hit "The Retirement Number" (SB1817)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show
Episode: What to Build After You Hit "The Retirement Number" (SB1817)
Date: March 18, 2026
Host(s): Joe Saul-Sehy, OG
Special Guest: Amy Minkley (Founder, FI Freedom Retreat, Bali)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on what comes after achieving financial independence: the journey beyond hitting "the retirement number." The conversation with Amy Minkley, who founded the FI Freedom Retreat in Bali, explores themes of life design, community engagement, and the evolving nature of financial independence (FI). The hosts and guest highlight how the FI movement is shifting from a numbers-driven, early-retirement race toward a balanced focus on happiness, purpose, and contribution.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovering and Participating in the FI Community (08:24–11:46)

• Amy’s Introduction to FI Events: Amy describes finding FI (Financial Independence) while living in Bangkok during the pandemic, feeling isolated and nervous about quitting her job. After her first in-person event post-quitting, she was so inspired that she attended five more in the same year.
• Seeking Community: Amy shares the transformative impact of being around people on the same journey—gaining not only knowledge but hope, inspiration, and the reassurance to make bold life changes.

“Meeting the community confirmed just how I felt about this movement and it really spurred me on in my journey. I was so inspired that I attended five more events that year.” (Amy, 09:39–10:16)

2. Retiring Without a Giant Cushion — Risk, Time, and Meaning (11:18–13:21)

• Amy retired just under her “number,” betting she could earn a little on the side. At her first event, she found a new job coaching online and gained confidence that even modest supplemental income (e.g., $10K/year) made a big difference.
• Personal circumstances (her father’s stroke) clarified her priorities—she traded one more year of work for invaluable time with family.

“I'm never going to regret that time. I would have worked one more year.” (Amy, 13:00–13:21)

3. Purpose Beyond the Numbers: Creating the FI Freedom Retreat (14:05–15:24)

• Inspired by her own experience, Amy wanted to build a retreat that offered others what she valued—community, purpose, adventure, and a sense of belonging abroad.
• The retreat fuses financial themes with local culture, adventure, and giving back to Bali.

“It's a combination of adventure, financial independence... really about purpose and community and giving back.” (Amy, 15:00)

4. Deep Integration into Local and Expat Community (17:03–19:26)

• Amy discusses her organic immersion in Balinese culture, emphasizing how genuine relationships (often starting with landlords and friends-of-friends) led to meaningful cross-cultural connection and philanthropic partnerships.
• She highlights local initiatives, such as supporting women escaping domestic violence in Bali.

5. The FI Movement’s Shift: From Optimization to Fulfillment (20:55–23:01; 27:54–28:55)

• The retreat intentionally does not emphasize technical optimization (e.g., taxes, travel hacking) on the main stage, instead centering discussions on optimizing for happiness, post-FI life, and community.
• The FI conversation, both in her experience and in the broader community, is evolving:
  • Earlier: Focus on strict savings and “escaping” work at the minimum viable number.
  • Now: A more holistic pursuit—enjoying the journey, blending purpose and flexibility, and reducing existential crisis risks after early retirement.

“We’re solving for enjoying the journey, finding happiness along the way… we know that's not true because we've seen so many people speak openly about the real existential crisis that can happen… It's a more balanced approach.” (Amy, 27:54–28:37)

6. Sustaining Motivation and Community After FI (22:54–25:52)

• Amy has attended 23 FI events—less for new technical learning, more for meaningful friendships and yearly “battery recharges.” Extended time with like-minded people helps combat loneliness and broadens one’s network across generations and backgrounds.
• The podcast underscores that shared values can bridge political and cultural differences when explored in depth and over time.

7. The Role and Importance of Purpose After FI (28:55–31:42)

• Amy continues leading retreats (despite being financially independent) because it excites her, provides community, and gives a sense of meaning—especially when witnessing the charitable impact attendees make.
• The hosts reflect that “little-p” purpose (small acts of giving or connection) can be as valuable as grand pursuits, and that discovery comes by taking action rather than waiting for clarity.
• For a happy retirement, three things are essential: community, avoiding loneliness, and having purpose.

“If you're not sure what your purpose is, just start moving. And the more you move, the more you find it.” (Joe, 30:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the real benefit of FI:

  “I'm not going for... I always do learn something new. But mostly I’m going to deepen friendships... some of my best friends in my life I’ve just met since I started going to these events.” (Amy, 23:38)

• On the evolution of FI goals:

  “When we first started out, it was like, how quickly can we check out? It doesn’t seem like that’s what we’re solving for anymore as much.” (Joe, 27:54)

• On building purpose post-retirement:

  “This community is so generous. They volunteer not only in their neighborhood, but also to give to a charity like this halfway across the world.” (Amy, 30:05)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [08:24–13:21] Amy’s journey into FI, retiring below the “number,” the value of FI community
• [14:05–15:24] The creation and values of the FI Freedom Retreat in Bali: purpose, community, and giving back
• [17:03–19:26] Deep cultural connection in Bali, philanthropy, and the long-term impact of giving back
• [20:55–23:01] Why the retreat sidesteps technical optimization for life purpose and community
• [22:54–25:52] The importance of community—annual recharge at FI events, diversity, and relationship-building
• [27:54–28:55] Macro trends in the FI movement: journey-enjoyment, existential risk after “number,” balancing work and play
• [28:55–31:42] Joy and purpose after FI—why Amy keeps creating, impact of community fundraising, defining “purpose”
• [31:42–32:13] Summary: The three buckets of a happy retirement—community, avoiding loneliness, and purpose

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Emergency Funds & Financial Planning Discussion (OG and Joe)

[42:47–55:56]

• Determining Your Emergency Fund (“the right number”):
  • Consider obligations vs. total income, stability of income, fallback resources, industry/job security, and personal comfort.
  • 6–12 months’ worth of essential expenses is suggested; more for those closer to retirement or in unstable industries.
• Common Mistakes:
  • Relying on lines of credit as emergency funds is risky—banks can yank that access in a crisis.
  • Define “true” essential expenses, not just gross income or all spending.
• Building an Emergency Fund:
  • Save concurrently with other priorities (e.g., 401k, HSA, IRA), don’t let the size of the goal paralyze you.
  • Having adequate cash reserve allows you to invest long-term money more aggressively and can reduce insurance costs by raising deductibles.
  • The peace of mind and practical flexibility outweigh the seemingly “low” returns compared to other investments.

“If you don’t have cash... you run a substantial risk of having to take money out of your long-term bucket at the exact wrong time.” (OG, 50:53)

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Thematic Takeaways

• FI is a Journey, Not Just a Destination: Hitting your “number” is just a checkpoint; finding happiness, purpose, and contributing to community are ongoing projects.
• Community Matters: Being part of a supportive group is invaluable both before and after reaching FI—loneliness is common, and regular in-person connections recharge motivation.
• Purpose is Vital (Big or Small): Whether leading a retreat, volunteering, or just being an engaged neighbor, purpose drives well-being after the money is handled.
• Life Planning > Financial Optimization: Money is a tool to live your values and priorities, not the ultimate scoreboard.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In:

This episode will inspire anyone:

• Approaching FI and wondering, “What’s next?”
• Seeking to balance the race for early retirement with a fulfilling life right now
• Interested in how FI community events can spark new friendships and opportunities
• Curious about purpose, volunteering, and integrating into local or global communities after “retirement”
• Wanting practical advice and a mindset shift for managing emergency funds

The episode is candid, warm, and lightly humorous—true to Stacking Benjamins’ style.

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For more on Amy’s work:

• FI Freedom Retreats

For the full episode and related resources:

• Stacking Benjamins Episode Show Notes

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

On December 12, Disney invites you to go behind the scenes with Taylor Swift in an exclusive six episode docu series.

[Amy Minkley]

I wanted to give something to the fans that they didn't expect. The only thing left is to close

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

the book the end of an era and don't miss Taylor Swift. The Eras Tour the final show featuring for the first time the tortured poets department. Streaming December 12th only on Disney. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Doug]

I don't know if you knew this,

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Amy Minkley]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate, first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms at Mintmobile do I look out my window

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

and I see my neighbor Doug? Poor, lazy, deplorable Doug.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And how's the financial independence journey? Changing. Amy Minkley hosts the financial Independence Freedom retreat in Bali and today she's visiting mom's basement for a wide ranging discussion on the state of fi. In our headline segment, how's that emergency fund? Today we'll nerd out with you about spiking the interest rate. Keeping enough in there, but not too much and more. And of course along with all that gold, I'll share some of my gold plated trivia. And speaking of gold, here come two guys who are turning more silver than gold, if you know what I mean. JOE and oh, J.J. ju.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hey there stackers. Welcome to Wednesday. Super happy that you're here because man, do we have an action packed show for you. But in this crew, I think I was because I've been friends with both of you guys for a long time. I was, I think I was the first one to really get more silver. Doug, you, you've had little silver things in the side of your head for a long time. But now it's like where you're going with this. Well, you did. I mean, just what are you doing? Silver highlights, like little. Did you have those done by your hairdresser or was it.

[Doug]

But now you just naturally very much. Is that where you were going? Like now it's all, it's a Lot of silver.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Look at og. Remember what a little, you know, boyish face he had back when we started?

[Doug]

Actually had right in the front. That doesn't exist anymore, but right in the front. Even in high school. I had a gray patch in high school. Right in the. In the front.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Welcome to Male Pattern Baldness for the Win podcast. I think this was the only profession, personal finance, financial advising, where I was like, how soon can I get gray hair? Like, how? How soon? And I was so happy to see it.

[Doug]

And you don't think doctors think the same thing?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Maybe, yes. But I'm just saying this is that type of field where I'm like, oh, thank goodness I'm getting glasses. This will be great.

[Doug]

If I can't earn respect the real way, I'll get it through visuals.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm gonna at least look the part. Well, a woman who doesn't need to focus on looking the part because she certainly is the part of financial independence. She retired at an early age. But Amy Minkley, too busy to sit around. And we've always talked about that's not what retirement's about anyway. She now runs the 5 Freedom Retreat. Free financial Independence Freedom Retreat. I was lucky enough to keynote the first one. It's in Bali where she lives, and she was visiting the United States just recently. So I sat down with her here in mom's basement and chatted with her about the state of financial planning and the state of the world of financial independence and how she looks at it differently now that she's really been in the community. What's the community focused on versus what was she focused on? We talk a lot about that. So wide ranging, fun conversation for anybody who looks at reaching financial independence is more of a community journey. So we got our interview with Amy waiting in the wings. But before that, we got a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. And then the amazing, incredible creator of the Five Freedom Retreat, Amy Minkley, joins us right after this. I had a breakfast mentoring meeting yesterday with a young woman who was just amazing. She is graduating from college with a degree in wealth management and she reached out hoping for some pointers. And listen, if somebody's in Texarkana and wants to go into this beautiful field of personal finance and helping people get their money together, that is incredible. But even more incredible is how she reached out, how she was trying to network. And I was having a discussion that finding the right person and avoiding the wrong person for a role, that's what can make or break an organization. And we just don't see that many qualified people. So how do you find them? Well, Indeed Sponsored Jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. You can stop struggling to get your job post even seen on other sites you'll match with quality candidates with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get matched with and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Reach candidates who meet your specific criteria like skill, certifications or location. Drives me crazy when I'm matched with all kinds of people who aren't a fit. I don't have that kind of time. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now in the minute I've been talking to you. Companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed. According to Indeed data worldwide, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non Sponsored Jobs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all the boxes. Less stress, less time, more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed. Sponsored Job and here's what's cool. Stackers. You're going to get $75 in sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support Stacking Benjamin by saying you heard about Indeed right here at stacking Benjamin. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way With Indeed in business, there is no room for guesswork. Every shipment matters, every deadline counts, and when you're trying to keep operations running smoothly, the last thing you need is uncertainty. That's why reliability is at the core of USPS Ground Advantage. From the moment your package is first scanned in, it moves through a secure nationwide network, aiding in a timely and accurate delivery. You get near real time tracking so you can keep up with your shipments. And with affordable upfront pricing, there are no hidden fees or surprise surcharges to throw off your cost sheets. It all adds up to predictable deliveries you can depend on, because knowing your logistics are handled lets you focus on everything else. Your customers, your team, and the future you're building. Visit USPS.com ground advantage to start shipping with confidence. USPS ground advantage we mean business. We're super happy that she's here and not in Mom's basement. We're actually in the front room today. Amy Minkley joins us.

[Amy Minkley]

So excited to be here. Thank you Jo.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I am super excited you came halfway around the world just to see us,

[Amy Minkley]

just for this interview right here.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's a Lie that I will believe any day, sister. I know it's a lie, but I don't care. I like it anyway. You are someone that I met at your first campfire. It was also my first campfire. So even though you had been following financial Independence people, financial independence community, this was as new to you as it was to me. But we got there in different ways. I was dragged kicking and screaming. When Stephen Boyer, that created these wonderful events told me, he's like, we're going to go to a retreat center where you're going to have a roommate. I'm like, okay, full stop. No. And then second, not only will you have a roommate, you're going to be sleeping on a bed where some teenager sleeps at some, you know, church camp retreat. And it's going to be like a quarter inch thick mattress. I'm like, I am way too old and bougie for this stuff, but I had a wonderful time. How did you get to your first community event?

[Amy Minkley]

Well, I found the 5 movement when I was living in Bangkok and I was hearing about all the five events and I think it was in the midst of the pandemic, so I was already feeling a little isolated. Working online.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Amy Minkley]

Really nervous wanting to quit my job and really nervous about my numbers and hearing about Campfire and economy on all these podcasts and thinking, I want to go, but we're in the middle of a lockdown and I bought a ticket to campfire and then I had to cancel it. And then finally when I got there after quitting my job In October of 2021, I was so excited. And then meeting the community confirmed just how I felt about this movement and it really spurred me on in my journey. I was so inspired that I attended five more events that year. So it was, you know, six in your first year. Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Might be a problem.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. Maybe just saying a little bit of an addiction.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Slightly addicted.

[Amy Minkley]

There's worse things to do, be addicted to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But no, 100%. And I want to talk about that a little bit because I do think that being around like minded people, especially when it comes to this money community, which is so misunderstood by so many people, I think is wonderful. But you go to this first thing, what are you expecting? What are you solving for? Like in your head, what is Amy thinking that she needs that she doesn't get, that she's going to plug in? By being around this group of people,

[Amy Minkley]

I had deep dived on all the podcasts, audiobooks, books, everything, blogs. I felt like getting around people who had, who were on The Fire Journey, or rdfi, would give me just some personal, anecdotal hope for my own journey and then also someone to actually look at my numbers. And, you know, I know I can hire someone to look at my numbers, but I felt like having conversations there with people and hearing what they're talking about would inspire me on my own journey, and it certainly did.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What was your gut feeling? Was your gut feeling that your numbers were good, your numbers were bad, or didn't you have one?

[Amy Minkley]

I felt like I was. I was a little bit. Like, I was kind of on the edge. I retired with a little bit less than my number, anticipating that I could find some way to earn some money. And I ended up meeting someone at that 5 event where I was. I started teaching online, doing executive function, coaching for kids with adhd. So I got a job at that first event.

[OG]

Wow.

[Amy Minkley]

And then I was also inspired to, like, well, I want to do something like this and create this on the side of the world that I live on and give people an opportunity to travel to Bali and maybe, you know, people who live on that side of the world to come to an event without having to fly to the U.S. a lot came out of that event. I quit, you know, because I was burned out and also because my dad had had a stroke. And I really realized, like, I don't want to be tied to the school schedule anymore. I was an international school teacher, you know, living on the opposite side of the world. My numbers were a little on the lean side, but sitting down with. There was one woman at the event who sat down with me on the Sunday night and made me feel a lot more sure about my numbers, you know, if I could find a way to even bring in $10,000 a year, you know, what that looked like over time, compounded. If I'm drawing down 10,000 less from my portfolio every year, what a difference that can make. And that really reassured me. It's not that hard to earn $10,000 a year. So, yeah, I didn't have a huge cushion when I quit.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What you're solving for, then, it sounds like to me, is not so much the money you want to verify the money you're solving for. Time, maybe then to be around your dad. Is that what you're solving for?

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. And I'm so grateful because if I wouldn't have quit, you know, he passed in 2024, but if I wouldn't have quit that year, you know, I got like, nine months that year with my dad. I got to move him and spend A lot of time with him, move him close to the rest of my family. I'm never going to regret that time. I would have worked one more year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But that's interesting because I often feel like a lot of people are solving to get away from something. You know, to get away from. In fact, I was fielding calls on Paula Pants show Afford Anything earlier today, and one of the questions was, I want to get out of teaching. Paul and I both answered, it's not about getting out of teaching. It's about what is the next adventure, Right? What is the thing? Because until we know what that is, it's very difficult to solve the money. If the money follows the thing, it's great if we try to just have enough money so that I can get the hell out of here. Well, then why? Why are you getting out of here? But it sounds like you had a pretty strong why. So you get to spend that time with your dad. You still then have this time freedom. What were you solving for after that?

[Amy Minkley]

I mean, I was lit up by the idea of creating an event. Like, how could I create the feeling that I left that first campfire with for other people who maybe hadn't had the opportunity to do that? And then also, how could I share? You know, I'd lived in Bali for several years before I took the job in Bangkok. Like, how could I share my love of Bali and this place that I wanted to live as well?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Where does this come from? Is this your teaching background? Is it that teaching people light you up?

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah, you know, lesson planning and creating learning experiences is my background and organizing events. And I used to lead kids on trips to the Himalayas and do fun things like that. So, yeah, it definitely comes from, I think, my natural skill set, my natural love of being around people, and then my love of the Balinese culture. Like, how can I show people a side of Bali that they wouldn't get to see if they were just a tourist there?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's like you're creating a. You know, Austin, Texas, is known for Fusion. I feel like Amy Minkley is creating her own financial independence. Fusion.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah, it is, because it's a combination of adventure, financial independence. A lot of the talk is really about purpose and community and giving back. That's one thing I'm really passionate about, is like, how can I give back to Bali? You know, I really hope that people walk away from my event with a more clear idea of, like, their life and their purpose. And how can they give back and have adventure and live their best life with community?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

One thing I Learned from you very clearly at the retreat. That first year was since you and I first met. I've been on this quest to find out what makes a better retirement. Right. And I've been doing all of this research and a lot of my talks now, and this idea of your community and your backyard and this idea of giving back, but it truly helps you. And the thing that I really took home from that, even though you want me to be in love with Balinese culture, what I got from that was how important it was to you and how important it should be for me to be in love with my local culture here in my backyard in Texarkana. And I am so much more involved in Texarkana than I was before I went to the Five Freedom Retreat. And I gotta tell you, Amy, it was transformative. It was just. I feel so much happier, even though on paper, you know, if I were solving for Roth Strategies, okay, that would be great, but solving for more happiness. I have incredibly more happiness now because I'm looking at what's going on in my backyard. But you being a transplant in Bali, how do you. You know, plenty of expats that never leave their backyard and just hang out with European people in Bali. How did you get involved? I mean, it's one thing for me to go to a Rotary meeting in Texarkana. Right, right. With a bunch of people who look kind of like me, and that's kind of like me. But to go to this culture, which is so foreign from the way that you were brought up, how did you begin to make those connections?

[Amy Minkley]

I feel like the Balinese people in general are so warm and welcoming. Bali does have quite a good number of expats, but because they've got such a rich culture, because they still live in tribal societies, they have a chief. They. They do ceremony 220 days a year, morning prayers and evening prayers and offerings. Like, they are very well connected to. To each other. And they have a very strong sense of their culture and pride in their culture. And yet, because. Because they're so connected to their culture, I believe it brings a generosity of spirit and a warmness to them.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But how did you get connected to that?

[Amy Minkley]

I got connected to them. Well, just. I mean, I think it's just natural, honestly. Like, I don't know. I mean, Balinese people. When my friends talk about Balinese people as well, I would say that they have good Balinese friends as well. Not everybody does that. You know, maybe some people just hang out with expats, but I think, you know, of course, it would be a huge missing for me if I wasn't deeply connected to the culture. So I feel like just by meeting, you know, landlords and then their friends and getting invited to the daughter's fifth birthday, you know, or the five months when their feet first touched the ground for, you know, they're carried around until five months old, you know, all the special, they have a teeth filing ceremony, they have all these interesting ceremonies as you get to know them, you get invited to these cultural celebrations.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But were you, did you just go out and meet your neighbors? Were you at community events?

[Amy Minkley]

Mostly through landlords, like, you know, getting to know the families and they become my family and they are my family. Like, I definitely have a Balinese.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Your landlord being a Balinese person.

[Amy Minkley]

Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And then you get to know them.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. And they are my family.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. And I know all the extended family.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And that's so wild because I mean, that idea of renting to somebody and being their family is way different. I mean, like, you know, the rule of thumb back when we were doing a real estate podcast was do not get close to your tenant.

[Amy Minkley]

Right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Because if you get close to your tenant, then you're going to believe every sob story and you're never going to make any money.

[Amy Minkley]

Right. Most of my friends who I think of, it's people that I've rented from in the past or my current landlords, I mean, we signed a 25 year lease, so we're, we're there for good. But then Eri particularly that I was telling you about was who's helped a thousand women escape domestic violence and poverty. She is a friend of a friend, so an American friend who introduced me to her just because of the incredible work she's doing. I was looking to get involved in Bali and how could I give back? And my friend introduced me to her.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I get excited about that. I get so excited about helping. Well, when I was there and heard about her mission and just how important it is. But I was equally as excited about the fact that plugging into your backyard and doing this quote, giving back thing and what strength it gives you as an individual, and that sounds kind of takey, but you can't go into it like what's in it for me? But what's amazing is a byproduct of it was. There was way more in it for me than I thought that there ever would be. There was way, way, way more in it for me. Do you feel like enough people are solving for that? That they're solving for that brand of happiness? This giver mentality of happiness.

[Amy Minkley]

I think the 5 movement's talking about it more like Ryan Brennan, who was at that first retreat in 2023 in Bali, and he, you know, he started the FI Service Corps. We had a breakout session, which was the most popular breakout session, which was generosity and giving back. And, you know, we had a whole session on that. Ebisari spoke with us about what she was doing in Bali and then he took that and ran with that. He's coming back to Bali this year and leading a 5A Service Corps volunteer opportunity in Bali. They're building houses, they're doing things all over the US and you know, I have seen people like, I'm thinking about Tanya, who was there our first year. You interviewed her Stacking Benjamin.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Amy Minkley]

You know, she's really gotten involved in the food banks. I do see it anecdotally. When I think about my friends who've come to the event, like giving back and getting involved in their. Their local community.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You don't talk about something that is. I feel like we're a little bit obsessive compulsive about in the financial independence community, which is optimization. Right. I'm going to optimize my travel points. I'm going to optimize my tax strategy. I'm going to optimize my. You don't really emphasize any of that at the Five Freedom retreat. How come?

[Amy Minkley]

Well, partly because we've got people from all over the world, or I should like the last event, about eight countries. And so we wouldn't go into tax savings optimization or Roth conversion.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Roth what?

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah, exactly. You know, people can do that in the breakout topics at lunches and dinners. You can choose whatever topic you want to and put a placard on a table and have those conversations. And you can do it also in the official breakout sessions. And because the retreat's longer, there's plenty of ample time hanging out by the pool or, you know, on the bus, going to the water temple, blessing or any of those things to have those conversations. Because we have a lot of calls beforehand too. So you really start to think about if you wanted to talk about tax optimization, who do you want to have that conversation with? So people can have those individual conversations at the retreat and. But that's never going to be the main stage speakers topics because it wouldn't be relevant to the whole audience. We are talking about like optimizing our life and optimizing for happiness and how do we live our best postfi life, those kind of things. But not the heavy Nuts and bolts strategies for money.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's talk even before people are financially independent, trying to find people that are motivated to have these big savings rates of 30% that maybe will forego an expensive dinner out. For more dinners at home that they value but are much less expensive, they start making these value based decisions. We don't see that a lot around us. There's this little bit of loneliness on this path. I also feel like when you're going to these events, it's like you're almost recharging the battery, you know, how many financial independence events have you been to?

[Amy Minkley]

I think 23.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's like a drug.

[Amy Minkley]

Not, not like I'm not like I'm counting or anything, but there's got to

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

be a little bit of recharge the battery because I do feel like there is this also this theme. Well, there's a broader theme in life, Amy, I think for all of us is there's a little bit of loneliness with life. And finding that group of people that are headed the same way is super important.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. For me, it was scary to walk away from my job, lose my social network, lose my identity, and then to be able to connect back in with a community of people who have time, freedom and financial freedom. Like, like, oh, let's go travel, let's meet in Australia or let's go to Europe together, you know, after the retreat. Like, I see that a lot. People ask me, my mom asked me particularly, like, why do you keep going back to these events? You've been to 23. What else can you learn?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think you probably got it down now, Amy.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah, exactly. But I'm not going for. I always do learn something new that I didn't know. And I always do walk away inspired. But mostly I'm going to deepen friendships with people that I already have long friendships with and some of my best friends in my life that I've just met since I started going to these events. And also to meet new and inspiring people. So I get a lot out of the events.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But is there a lesson here also about the way that you spend time with people? Because I think also part of the magic isn't just the shared values. I think there's a lot more people out there that have our shared values, but we don't know it. Because social media pulls us apart, the press pulls us apart. Everybody's pulling us apart because of a financial agenda. Right. It's better for the algorithm if we yell at each other. It's part of the magic. Just spending extended periods of time with these people who in real life, in a million years, you might not be friends with this person, but because you spent four days with them, 24, seven, like, you give yourself a chance to know somebody who might not be like you.

[Amy Minkley]

What I've learned, and you know, just from traveling and living abroad for over two decades now, people are really wonderful, you know, like, it's easy to be confused when you. Or disgruntled when I watch the news. But most people are incredibly wonderful. And if I just listen to them, big listen to them, like, what can they teach me? Like, I am amazed by people who sit on the other side of the political aisle for me and people who feel differently about me, differently about the world than me. Like, everybody has something to teach me, I feel. And so I do find that people who come on the retreat, like, they are people that I would be friends with, even though they're. You know, I think about Emma, you know, she's so much younger than me, but she's super wise and. And she's been on a lot.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Emma from Kansas City?

[Amy Minkley]

Yes. Hey, Emma Van Wisey. You know, But I met her when I. She was in her early 20s, you know, and I've got friends who are several decades older than me. Right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

She's an old wise soul, though.

[Amy Minkley]

She is.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Emma, you're an old wise soul.

[Amy Minkley]

She is in that sense. It's like I've got friends in all age brackets from different parts of the world because of the Phi community. And so I wouldn't have necessarily met them, but I really genuinely like them. And there are a lot of common values.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, it is. Well, we can find those two or three things that are our common values. Then those places where we're different get us to stop yelling at each other and start. It's funny, somebody on the show once said it changes everything where instead of going, amy, why the hell do you believe that? Turn that into a question. Go, why do you believe that? And all of a sudden, then you give them an opportunity to explain, and then you realize that this person isn't nearly as from the moon as you, as you thought that they were, because you gave them an opportunity. I want to touch on. On teaching because I feel like when you first started the Five for your freedom retreat, like, a lot of the big voices were saying some things in the Zeitgeist, and those have kind of moved over time. And one thing I've seen lately a lot has been this idea of downplaying one of the things that used to be kind of a tenant. A tenant used to be get out and get time freedom as fast as you can. Now it feels like it's much more. If you are just running away from a job and you're looking at that minimum, that safe withdrawal rate very closely, and the second that you hit it, you decide, I'm done, I'm checking out. And now I'm financially independent. Now I'm seeing that that might be a mistake. And that's because the stock market might change. That's because health insurance cost we just saw go up. We also have had a big lesson on inflation the last few years. Right. So many things can change that. If you check out and you barely are making it, like you could be in trouble. And I feel like on the scientific end, believe it or not, everybody, I'm getting to the question on the scientific end. Well, that makes sense. Okay. We've got all this new data that we didn't have, but I also kind of feel like we're solving for something a little different now. It feels to me, Amy, like when we first started out, it was like, how quickly can we check out? It doesn't seem like that's what we're solving for anymore as much. Would you agree?

[Amy Minkley]

I agree. Yeah. I feel like we're solving for like enjoying the journey, finding happiness along the way, enjoying the moment much less than like, I'll be happy when I'll be happy. If, you know, once I hit my Phi number, then it's all going to be unicorns and rainbows.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Amy Minkley]

And we know that's not true because we've seen so many people speak openly about what is, you know, like the real existential crisis that can happen sometimes. And if we've taken time to like maybe downgrade and go to part time work and you know, find ways to de stress our lives and enjoy the journey too. Fi. And then when we quit our jobs, we can also continue to work somewhat, you know, some hours if we like, you know, it's a much more balanced approach and I think leads to ultimate happy, like more long term happiness.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, and that is a question. Right. People that don't understand like a creator journey or a creator mindset are asking right now. Okay, you already said you're financially independent. You already said that you got out of your your job. Why the hell put as much time into creating this thing since you're already financially independent?

[Amy Minkley]

Because it brings me so much joy. I love having people come to Bali. I love showing off the culture. I love taking people on adventures. I love showing Them a side that they wouldn't be able to see otherwise if they just came as a tourist.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You like watching me cry at the end.

[Amy Minkley]

Exactly. That was the best. That was the best. Like if Joe cry. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Mission accomplished.

[Amy Minkley]

Yes.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. So, I mean, I would be bored, honestly, you know, And I have a really great life. I mean, I exercise every day and I've got incredible friends of expats and Balinese people around me that have a lot of free time, too. Not so much Balinese because they have a lot of ceremonies, but my expat friends have.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

They're busy with their ceremonies.

[Amy Minkley]

They're busy with their ceremonies and their. And their kids and their family and their village and. Yeah, but. Yeah, I've got an incredible community around me. But still, you know, if I'm just exercising every day and, you know, doing all the classes and things that I love to do in Bali, I still, I. I need something that excites me. I need to create something. I need to feel like I'm giving back. And the. The feedback I've gotten has been phenomenal. And then, you know, giving back to Ebusari, you know, this wonderful woman in the charity that the fi community has. I don't know if, you know, like, how much money we've raised in the last two years.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's exciting.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah. $57,000.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Amy Minkley]

That's phenomenal. For her to. Instead of paying rent for all those safe houses she had before, she's able to buy land and build. What a gift, you know, that's going to affect generations upon generations of Balinese kids and women. So, like, you know, it moves me like this. This community is so generous. They volunteer only not only in their neighborhood, but also to give to, like, a charity like this halfway across the world.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This can change somebody's life that you will never meet.

[Amy Minkley]

Yes. And then it's cool that people will come. Like, sometimes we've had repeat people come back and they see, you know, they're going to get to see what this. This incredible place that was built for all these women and children. So it's good to be able to. I feel a sense of purpose more

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

than you did when you first started.

[Amy Minkley]

Definitely. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. That's interesting how getting your feet moving, I feel. And all the studies show this. If you're not sure what your purpose is, just start moving. And the more you move, the more you find it. You know, I have people that push back to me, and I think it's because purpose freaks them out when they hear our Mutual friend, Doc G. Talk about purpose. Or when I echo that or you echo that, and people write me so angry, Amy, like, you don't need purpose to retire. You do not need it. All the evidence suggests that you do. But it shouldn't freak you out, right?

[Amy Minkley]

It doesn't have to be big. Right. It can just be, you know, how do you make people feel? How do you give back in small ways?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What's it Jordan Duckjee says? A little P. Purpose.

[Amy Minkley]

Little p. Purpose.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right.

[Amy Minkley]

And that. That makes such a difference, too. Right. And you don't have to know it. Right. You just try things like throw spaghetti at the wall. I think Doc G talks about that as one of the methods. It's like, think about what you loved as a child. Try some different things. See what. What sticks.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You know, I just think about the three factors that go into an unhappy retirement, which is lack of community, loneliness, and lack of purpose. How much just attending an event like yours can hit all three of those.

[Amy Minkley]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Can change all three of those buckets and can truly be transformative. So here's to you, Amy Minkley.

[Amy Minkley]

Thank you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you so much for coming out here specifically just to see me all

[Amy Minkley]

the way from Bali.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And I know it's a lie, but I'll believe it anyway. Cheers.

[Amy Minkley]

Cheers. I'm Andy Dwire, and when I'm not pulling suckers off my tomato plants in my garden, I'm Stackin Benjamins.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And what a precious conversation that was with Amy. We're such fans of Amy's work. It sparkles. You could say that interview was gold. But here's a question. With Gold doing well in 2025, what you might not know is most precious metal were a little more precious than they've been in recent memory. So here's today's question. Which precious metal was most precious and had the top return? I'll be back right after I go ask Joe's mom if cubic zirconium has now gone up in value. My collection could make me a bajillionaire. Like overnight.

[Amy Minkley]

Refreshing wild cherry cola meets smooth cream. The treat you deserve. Pepsi Wild cherry and cream Treat yourself.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Tired of partisan noise? America's more divided than ever. But independent Americans is adding light to contrast all that heat. Independent Americans Daily News with Army veteran Paul Rykoff. Pressing issues of the day with leaders who are shaping what America will be in the future. We're going to bring the righteous media five eyes. Independence, integrity, information, inspiration and impact. Join the movement, independent Americans from Believe. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm your most precious podcast announcer guy and a man who can easily be described as podcast gold. Right here, Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Today, with such a precious interview with Amy Minkley, we thought we'd shine a light on precious metals, which had a moment last year. But here was the question, which precious metal? Cha Ching the cash register the most. If you said gold, well, that'd be fool's gold, because the winning answer is silver. Silver, often called the devil's medal because of its volatility, was up over 150% by December of 2025. And now back to two guys who are the platinum veneer of this podcast, Joe and OG.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It was an amazing interview with Amy. Thank you so much to Amy Minkley for dropping by while she was in the United States. It was so nice to see her again and to get her take. What's funny, OG that strikes me is talking to Amy just over the years, not just of us doing the podcast, but your time spent with clients, the amount of change that occurs in your life because of, I guess, the thoughtful interactions about what financial independence means and what it doesn't mean. And I don't know about you, but clearly for me there's this melding of saving for tomorrow, which I think people think that's what financial planning is and doing it more efficiently, which we talk about a lot on the show. But also doing the stuff today, like tomorrow is just not assured. So, man, I gotta, I gotta do this stuff now. That's what's really changed for me during this journey. What would you say is different for you from the time between the time you became a financial planner and today?

[OG]

I would say something very similar in the sense that over the last 25 years, planning has really been pushed to the forefront.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right?

[OG]

Some commoditization of products and costs and, you know, that sort of stuff has made that part of the business. That's the easy stuff. And now most of the focus is on planning. But I think, I think it's even more than just the old school retirement planning and more just lifetime planning. The number of people that we work with now that are, you know, taking sabbaticals or an early retirement, knowing full well, hey, I'm, I'm just retiring from this job and I'm going to go back to work in a period of time and are doing so openly, knowing I have to still stay on top of my skill set. I can't sail away for five years and come back and go, I used to be in computers so I can be in computers again, right? And it's like, well, five years is a long time in tech, right? Or whatever. So I think the number of people that are consciously doing that has expanded quite a bit. You know, I say this very famously. Like I'm planning on living to be 140 so that my I can see my kids turn 100. And the benefit of that is I don't have to save any money right now because I can start retirement savings like in a really long time because I still have like 100 years.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Procrastination becomes a real thing, like a benefit.

[OG]

Yeah, it's, you know, there's a little bit, it's a little tongue in cheek because I am doing some retirement savings. But when you look at your life as, let's say from adulthood to ending, as a continuum and a non stop evolution of stuff that you're doing, there's periods of time where you're making money and saving money and there's periods of time where you're spending money and consuming it. But it's not like a break where it's like, okay, I am now done earning money and now I'm just doing this. I would say the number of people that are in the community that we have interacted with over these 1800 some odd hours of time that we've been doing this, it's like the people who have said, okay, I'm done earning money from this and now I earn some money from this and I do something like this and this occasionally, you know, I earn some money from this. I don't earn any money from. This is a consumption area of my life. You know, it's just, it's more of a lifetime plan as opposed to a retirement plan of I'm going to accumulate, done, move on. The second section of my life, that's probably the biggest change over the last quarter century or so.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's been the change you've seen professionally. But what about for you personally this changed? I think financial planning led me more to lifestyle planning in general. Not taking it for granted that my day was going to work the way that I wanted to. Like thinking more about what my priorities were with my time and the melding the money around that prioritization of what I valued. Like that's way different than when I was in my 20s and I was just thinking about those as two totally different things that didn't, would never touch.

[OG]

I think personally in the financial planning space. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about retirement. I don't spend a lot of time focusing on that. I really solve around our personal life, around personal benefit, personal outcome. You know what I mean?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Personal life satisfaction.

[OG]

Yeah, maybe that's a good way of putting it. Like, what can I do that I just want to. Like, I would do anyway, but I can do in a better way or something that provides a better experience for the people around me, or how can I make this experience better for me? Overall, time is probably a big focus, like how much time I spend doing different things. There's some stuff that I can't control. Like, for example, right now I'm doing this bicycle training for this event that I'm doing in July. And there's no way to speed that up. There is no substitute for just sitting there and pedaling your bike for hours on end. I've tried to AI this and figure out, like, what's the hack? How can I hack my way to this? It's like the hack is you just do more of it. That's the hack. So that's forcing me to reprioritize other stuff, you know what I mean? Because there's like now this big block in my calendar that is a huge amount of time that I have to spend. It's immovable. It's a big rock. And so, like, what are the other things around it that I can fill in? So I think a lot more in seasons around that stuff. Like, that's this busy season for that. But when that race is over in July, like, I'm sure I'll still cycle, but I'll probably not do 15 hours a week of it anymore. And, like, it'll just. Then it will be my other season of activity that I do. I think the priority for me is really around life optimization and less a focus on are we maxing out whatever? You know, to me, it's about maxing out life, I think, is probably a

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

better way to say, yeah, which leads you to max out the Roth or max out the whatever. You don't do it to max it out because that's what you heard, or that's the good money move. You do it as a result of the lifestyle design. It's so funny because I remember early in my career as a financial planner, just when people would talk lifestyle design, I'd be like, yeah, let's get the fun stuff, managing the money. And now I'm like, the lifestyle design truly is the fun stuff. And I think when Benjamin Brandt was on earlier and I've shown this clip, you know, when I go speaking around the country, it just is so true what you're saying that why wait for the future to do these things? You know, why am I waiting for this unicorns and rainbows to happen in the far distance when I should be working on this now? So interesting discussion by the way. We're going to be talking about speaking of retirement planning next Wednesday night. There's actually a movie that's up for an Academy Award about retirement planning. It's called Retirement Plan. I believe that it's been put out by the people behind the New Yorker. It's a seven minute film. We're going to do a screening on YouTube of the full seven minutes with our friends Tom and Don from retirement. They put on the retirement conference. They are the two guys around a show we love called Talking Real Money. These guys are going to join us as our special guest for a special YouTube screening. How often does a show about retirement planning actually make it to the Academy Awards? So we got to celebrate that moment, but we're going to dive into your retirement plan is March 25, 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific. That way we can get everybody across the nation, across the United States in on this. As many people as possible. Details@Stacky benjamin.com movie so join us for that. All right, let's, let's do our headline. Hello darlings.

[Amy Minkley]

And now it's time for your favorite

[OG]

part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Going to spend a few minutes on our headline today because it's a continuation of what we talked about on Monday. OG Monday we were talking about more people taking hardship withdrawals, more people borrowing from their 401ks. We talked about the dangers of that on Monday. But we also talked about setting up trip wires and some important, I guess strategies you can use. Tactics you can use to make sure that if life starts going the wrong way, you can get there soon enough that you don't have to raid the 401k. But let's talk about the emergency fund. Now they say, they, they the big, they say that you need between three and six months.

[OG]

It's the royal day.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

By the way, some people, which Doug would say is him.

[Doug]

I was going to say let's just cut. I mean it's me and some people

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

even say longer than six months. But there's a big difference between a three month emergency fund, six month emergency fund. How do we determine the right amount to have for us when you're sitting down with a client. What are the things people need to think about to get the right amount in that emergency fund for them?

[OG]

Well, I think the first thing that you want to do is figure out exactly what your obligations are on a monthly basis. The biggest thing is to be judicious around what are the things that are non negotiable. Like for example, you have to pay your mortgage payment, you have to pay your car payment, you have to have food on the table and your electric bill and so on, so forth. So once you know what that number is, then you can start saying, okay, now where would I take that money from if I needed it in the next month? Most of us would say, oh well, I'll just earn it. I get paid $10,000 a month and my monthly expenses are 8. So therefore I'm good. Like as long as that 10's coming in, the 8 can go out. As you're trying to evaluate, should I have three months or six months or 12 months or two years worth? As you get closer, probably toward retirement, I think you have to be honest with yourself around what's the worst that can happen? If you're an entrepreneur and your job is your life and everything's fairly stable, I think there's a reasonable case for having a smaller cash reserve. If you don't owe anybody a lot of money and your monthly expenses are food and property taxes because your house is all paid off and you don't have any debt, there's a case for a smaller emergency fund there. And depending on the asset level that you have in other areas too, I mean there's. I've seen people that say, well, I don't need to have three months of cash reserve or six months, I can have three. Because every quarter I get enough dividends from my brokerage account that I could just flip that onto cash and that would be three months worth of emergency funds right there. Like I have enough brokerage account assets that produce enough cash flow to fund that without making withdrawals. So it largely depends on how stable your income is, what the worst case scenario is about your income, like how

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

easy it would be to get another

[OG]

job, you're saying, yeah, that or the state of the economy, all that sort of stuff I think is fair to judge. And then really your relationship with all the other resources in your life. If you say, well, I'm good, I've got a half a million dollar line of credit on the house and 2 million in my 401, it's like, well, okay, that's not really an emergency fund. I mean, that's a, that's an okay fallback plan if it all goes really haywire in a hurry. But I wouldn't want to use any of those things as emergency money for your very risky jobless security. You know, job security list. Maybe that's where I put the less is after the security that would cause me to have a little bit more. Equally detrimental, by the way, is having too much cash reserve. There's plenty of people out there who have the sky is falling all the time type of mentality and say, well, no, you don't understand. In 27 years we might take the kids to Disney. So I should probably have that money set aside. It's like, okay, that's just lining up the goal with the wrong bucket. You should definitely account for that if that's in your plan. But you need to make sure that the goal and the timeframe is lined up correctly with the right bucket of money. So I would generally say for the vast majority of people, six months is probably on the very long low, low, low, low end. I think most people would benefit by having a year. If you're ticking down towards 6, 5, 4, 3 months. Three months is not a long time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It is not a long time.

[OG]

It is, especially in the, the way the economy is and job search and stuff like that.

[Doug]

I think that, I mean, that's general. It's the job search part. It's how and which is so variable for so many different professors.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Look at how much more variable it is now than two years ago.

[Doug]

Right? It's how long do you think, on the conservative side, do you think it's going to take you to find new employment or whether it's in your field or not to, to replace that income? And there's all kinds of levels of that, right? I mean, you might have to end up going to get a, a part time job or something out of your field, but that is more readily had from an income which reduces your burn rate on your, however much your, your emergency fund is. I just, I'm a little bit apprehensive. Maybe this is my own personal fears coming out. OG but when you say a year is right, I mean that makes a lot of people choke because how the heck am I going to come up with a year's worth of expenses that's going to take me 10 years, 15 years to get a year's worth of expenses into an account and then never touch it? Yeah, well, okay, how do we make people feel better about getting started on that? Because that Seems like unobtainium.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, before we get to that, there's a mistake people make that I've found in the past. They look at the amount of money they make, top line and they think about expenses they don't get into. What are the drop dead expenses that I have? Not what am I making, what am I having fun with, like the whole barrel. It's actually a much smaller amount of money I think than a lot of people think that it is when they first think about like oh my God, there's no way. Well, number one, it's easy. It's still ain't easy. But back to Doug's question. Og, how do you think about that in relation to saving toward your other goals? Do you do that first or do you do it it concurrently with all of your other saving that you're doing?

[OG]

I mean I would have it be concurrent with all the other saving. You have to take advantage of the free Money in your 401k and the tax deferral benefits of HSAs and Roths and that sort of thing. But you can't do that at the expense of not having money available to you today. You know, so yeah, if you're 20 years old, 25 years old, and you're just getting started, this is going to take you 10 years to do probably like you said, Doug, that's okay. There's no. It's going to take you 40 years to save for retirement. Like this is a bargain in the grand scheme of things. The problem is, is that some of the stuff that you said, Doug, I think. Propagates. Is that the word I want to use?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It propagates.

[OG]

Propagate.

[Doug]

I don't know. You got to finish the rest of the sentence before. I know if that's.

[OG]

No, you should tell me if it's the word I want to use.

[Doug]

I don't know yet. I think it's not. I think there's a high likelihood it's not the word you want.

[OG]

It continues to tell the story, the incorrect story. How's that? Of like this isn't possible so therefore I shouldn't do it, you know. And the problem is, is that if you look at emergency funds as a waste of time or I'm losing out, you know, I mean you just said it with a ton of emotion like I've got all this money sitting in there. It's not doing anything. It is doing stuff. It's doing the thing that makes it so that you can do the rest of your investment plan. If you don't have cash. If you don't have stuff set aside in short term buckets and all you have is long term money, you run a substantial risk of having to take money out of your long term bucket at the exact wrong time. Nobody gets laid off during the greatest bull market in American history that doesn't exist. It happens when the economy is in a giant sinkhole and everything that can go wrong is going wrong economically in your job, in your life, in your family. And then also you get laid off and Your account's down 35% and you go, well, I didn't have any cash because cash was stupid. Because, you know, Doug said it was on the podcast.

[Doug]

Once again, OG is a bucket of sunshine.

[OG]

Well, no, it's having cash is the thing that allows you to invest money into your stock portfolio. If you don't have that, you can't do the other thing. Because the risk associated with, with investing, why everybody thinks investing is risky is because you don't align the time frames with your goals correctly. And the people who get burned in investing get burned because they take money out of their portfolio when the market's down. And the reason they took it out when the market was down was because they didn't have the right buckets aligned with the right time frame.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Meaning they thought it was today money when it really was 10 years from now money.

[OG]

Or they didn't have any today money and said, I don't need any of this because I got a line of credit on the house and, or I got credit cards so I don't need to have any cash reserve. I can only, I only need 10 year money. And then the bank calls and goes, hey, by the way, we're not renewing that line because the economy is in tank and your house is worth 30% less than it was when we wrote it the first time. Or your credit card company goes, hey, we noticed that your balance has been increasing. You've always paid on time, which is great, we appreciate that. But you used to pay the full balance and now you pay the minimum payment. Something's amiss. So our algos caught that and we reduced your line of credit from 20 to 10. And you go, but 10 is the current balance. I was planning on using the other 10 because I've been out of a job for a month and I need to spend. They go, we don't care, we're not taking. Or we're, we're not your savior. We're here for convenience purposes. We're not taking the L because you didn't Plan correctly. So cash gives you the flexibility to go slowly with all that stuff.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. There are so many points there that I want to highlight the first one.

[OG]

Good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

When you were talking. Right. All right. You did a lot right there, brother. A few things. Number one is this idea of my line of credit on my house and using credit. We saw what happened, or maybe people didn't see what happened with credit in 2007, 2008, where the bank went, yeah, we're not gonna keep that line of credit anymore. If you're relying on a line of credit for your emergency fund, the bank will take that away. You don't own that. You lease that property. They own that property. And the ability to give you money just because you have it open today and it's X amount of money today. We've already seen it proven historically that that's not always the case.

[OG]

I mean, look, I have told this story before, and I will tell it till I'm blue in the face. We were the people that always had the credit card maxed out. Like, we would make the payment and then it would go back up to max. Then we'd make the payment and we'd go back up to max.

[Doug]

Right.

[OG]

We did that repeatedly. And when we went to move, I made a huge payment so that I would have a big open line so that I could charge the movers and, you know, I had to stay in some hotels and all that sort of stuff. And the, like, literally the day we made that payment, we got an email from Discover and they went, hey, we've updated your line of credit. And they updated it down half because I made half. The credit limit was 15. I made a $7,000 payment. Our new. They took it all away immediately. There was no, like 5 sec. Like, I called them and I was like, what? What the heck? I need this money. They're like, yeah, well, you know, tough.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[OG]

Like, there was no. So now I didn't have the 7,000 bucks and I didn't have the $7,000 line of credit. So now I was double hurt.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh. You know, but then when you have that money set aside, using that as your. Your first tripwire to see that expenses have changed and you go after that money versus your long term money. That's fantastic because it tells you, okay, the budget's not working the way I want it to work, something I need to go change something out. In my strategy to be able to do that with money that's sitting on the sideline versus having to go to your long term investments. I think is hugely important. The other thing I wanted to focus on there as well is what the real interest rate is because I think you highlighted this OG the fact that you don't have to touch that 10 year money means you can be more aggressive or as aggressive as you should have been in the first place with that 10 year money. And what do you see with people that say I don't need emergency fund. They hedge their bet on their long term money because they think they might need it and they don't get the return that they could get if they had the buffer in place. So the it's not the crappy return you get at the bank that you return, it's the fact that you can invest the money the way it should be. And then the second thing is look at what you can do with your deductibles on your insurances or your insurance in the first place. The Aflac duck that gives you the short term disability coverage that you should have. If you don't have an emergency fund, you don't need the Aflac duck anymore. You can rely on your emergency fund. That's what the money's for. Or that long term, you know, the money on your homeowners or on your car insurance, you don't need either of those. So you can really jack up those lowers your insurance cost. It isn't the crappy interest rate you're getting just on that savings account. There's another aspect of this that I think we need to get into and we'll tackle this next week as we work our way through emergency funds. Like what? How do we get a higher interest rate? And I think there's some work we can do there as well.

[OG]

OG a little bit, a few extra bucks.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right. I think we already did, Doug. We already did the back porch. We talked about the movie screening. So we've got the movie screening coming up next Wednesday. Stacking Benjamins.com movie come on out and hang out with us and our friends Tom and Don from Talking Real Money who just put on a wonderful conference, the Retired Meat Conference out in Seattle.

[Doug]

The only guy in podcasting with a better voice than me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He's good. I told him on his radio show while I was out there. I was lucky enough not to just be out there, but to also appear on his radio show with him. And I said, if I had your voice, I'd burn mine. I would just burn it. Yeah, it's incredible. All right, that's going to do it for today. Thanks for hanging out with us. If you know, somebody that needs the 411 on emergency funds, you got it between today and Monday show. And also, if you know people that are interested in what's this fire movement all about, the conversation with Amy Minley is also one that I think is a great thing to pass on. Get that person fired up about this idea of financial independence. Good stuff. And maybe they'll end up wanting to go to Bali with you, which would be cool, too, right? And I know we mentioned this last week. I know the reason why a lot of you are here is because you want to be doing better with your money. You're not sure which areas you're doing well in, which areas you're not doing well in. Oh, gee. And his team have created a scorecard. And if you have not completed the scorecard, you can get your grade by going to stacky benjamin.com scorecard grade sounds so ominous. You earned every bit of that C minus, not that type of a score. But especially this is around asset allocation and moving your money correctly. We've talked for a long time on the show about just getting started. This is why we love the simple path to wealth. Get started by shoveling money away. But if you're not really sure about your asset allocation and you're at that $500,000 mark or more, you need to get more scientific. That's who the scorecard is for. Stacky benjamins.com Scorecard and you can answer a few questions and get yours. All right, that's going to do it for today. Doug, you've got it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's episode?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Amy Minkley. Financial independence is as much about lifestyle design as it is about the money. Once you have your money in a alignment, there's still some work to do. Second, what's the right amount for your emergency fund? Base that on your expenses, not your income and your ability to secure new work and think between 6 months and 12 months to begin your journey toward having the right amount. Don't worry if you're hoping for more on this topic. We'll continue this discussion next Monday. But the big lesson, don't assume that just because one precious asset goes up that they all follow in lockstep. Turns out that cubic zirconium is probably more of like a 2027 thing than a 2025 thing. I'm gonna keep buying low, baby. Thanks to Amy Minkley for joining us today. To find out more about her fantastic 5 Freedom Retreats, head to 5 Freedom Retreats with an S. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] this show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Salsihai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And how's the financial independence journey changing? Well, I'm emphasizing all kinds of words in that sentence, but here's the question. Which precious metal cha ching to the cash register the most? If you said gold, well that'd be fool's gold because the winning you're on the answer right into the answer. Stop rushing me like what the hell? You wanted a short episode, we just jump into the end.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Just give him the answer.