When the Job Crumbles: Preparing for Life's Surprises (SB1646)

Summary

The Stacking Benjamins Show: "When the Job Crumbles: Preparing for Life's Surprises (SB1646)"

Release Date: February 19, 2025

In this insightful episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show, hosts Joe Saul-Sehy and OG delve into the critical topic of financial preparedness for unexpected job loss. Titled "When the Job Crumbles: Preparing for Life's Surprises," episode SB1646 offers listeners practical advice, real-world examples, and expert insights to navigate the uncertainties of the modern job market.

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1. Setting the Stage: The Unpredictability of Employment

The episode kicks off with a candid discussion between Joe and OG about the volatility in today’s employment landscape. OG humorously jests, “[You’re] living in your mother's basement writing a blog on finance” ([01:32]), highlighting the often-surprising nature of job security.

2. Real-World Examples: Meta's Major Layoffs

A significant portion of the conversation centers around recent layoffs at Meta, where CEO Mark Zuckerberg announced the termination of 3,600 low-performing employees ([06:29]). Joe emphasizes the surprise many felt, noting, “A lot of workers took the LinkedIn OG after this saying that they were very confused at being laid off” ([07:15]). This example serves as a poignant reminder of how even high-performing employees can find themselves unexpectedly out of work.

3. The Necessity of an Emergency Fund

The hosts underscore the paramount importance of having a robust emergency fund. Referencing financial expert Shane Cummings, Joe states, “The first thing you should do is take stock of your savings and your sources of liquidity” ([11:45]). They advocate for setting aside three to six months’ worth of living expenses, explaining that “the science behind this three to six month thing” ([12:26]) is designed to provide financial breathing room during crises.

OG adds, “Some people think, I don't know where I'm going to find $1,000. Don't find a thousand, find ten. And just do it slowly” ([21:13]), encouraging listeners to start small and build their savings incrementally.

4. Budgeting and Expense Tracking: Knowing Your Financial Footprint

Joe and OG discuss the critical role of budgeting in financial preparedness. Joe shares personal strategies, such as weekly meetings using the Monarch Money app to monitor upcoming expenses and meal prepping to avoid unnecessary spending ([25:17]). OG reinforces the idea by stating, “If you don't know how much you spend, how are you going to know how much you need to have set aside?” ([26:45]).

5. Handling Layoffs: Strategies for Dealing with HR

The conversation shifts to practical advice on navigating the layoff process. Drawing from a TikTok video by employment lawyer Craig Levy, Joe outlines what employees can expect during an unexpected termination meeting ([15:25]-[17:05]). Key takeaways include:

• Ask Essential Questions: “Why am I being fired? When do my benefits end? Am I being offered severance?” ([17:05])
• Take Your Time: OG advises, “Don't be afraid... take a day” before signing any documents related to termination ([18:38]-[19:00]).
• Maintain Composure: Joe emphasizes the difficulty of staying calm but encourages listeners to “take a deep breath” ([17:05]).

Doug adds a personal touch by sharing his experiences, highlighting the emotional and logistical challenges faced when parting with colleagues and the importance of having a plan in place ([09:15]-[10:06]).

6. Listener Q&A: Estate Planning and Inherited Roth IRAs

The episode features a compelling listener question from Shane Day regarding estate planning and the implications of the new Secure Act 2.0 on inherited Roth IRAs ([37:11]-[45:29]). Shane inquires about best practices for passing down Roth IRAs to children, considering the requirement to fully withdraw inherited Roth IRAs within ten years.

Joe and OG provide a thorough analysis:

• Understanding the Changes: OG explains the ten-year withdrawal rule and its tax implications, especially for large IRA balances ([39:42]-[44:33]).
• Estate Planning Strategies: They discuss the benefits of involving trusts to manage inherited IRAs and emphasize the need for ongoing review as laws and personal circumstances evolve ([43:53]-[45:29]).
• Proactive Planning: Joe urges listeners to “have the protections in place” and to work with estate planning attorneys to navigate complex regulations ([44:54]-[45:28]).

7. Practical Tips for Financial Resilience

Building on Shane's insights, the hosts reiterate key steps for financial resilience:

• Maintain Low Debt Levels: OG explains how reducing debt can lower the financial burden during unemployment ([23:29]-[25:17]).
• Separate Emergency Accounts: Joe suggests keeping emergency funds in separate accounts to avoid the temptation of using them for non-emergencies ([22:55]-[23:29]).
• Regular Financial Check-Ups: Both hosts highlight the importance of regularly reviewing and updating financial plans to adapt to changing circumstances ([44:44]-[45:28]).

8. Engaging with the Community: Trivia and Light-Hearted Moments

Throughout the episode, Joe and OG intersperse their serious discussions with humor and trivia, maintaining the show’s signature light and friendly tone. For instance, Doug presents a trivia question about Smokey Robinson’s birthday ([29:56]-[34:32]), engaging younger listeners in a playful segment while reinforcing the community-driven spirit of the podcast.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Always Be Prepared: Job security is unpredictable; having an emergency fund is essential.
2. Budget Smartly: Regularly track and manage your expenses to maintain financial stability.
3. Understand Your Rights: In the event of a layoff, know the critical questions to ask and how to handle HR interactions.
4. Plan for the Future: Estate planning is vital, especially with changing laws affecting inherited accounts.
5. Stay Informed and Engaged: Regularly update your financial strategies and stay connected with financial communities for support and advice.

Notable Quotes:

• OG on Emergency Funds: “Don't find a thousand, find ten. And just do it slowly.” ([21:13])
• Joe on Handling Layoffs: “Take a deep breath and ask those questions.” ([17:05])
• Doug on Budgeting: “If you don't know how much you spend, how are you going to know how much you need to have set aside?” ([26:45])

Conclusion:

This episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show serves as a comprehensive guide for listeners to fortify their financial foundations against unexpected employment disruptions. By blending expert advice with relatable stories and a touch of humor, Joe and OG ensure that financial literacy remains accessible and engaging for all their audience members.

For more detailed insights and resources discussed in this episode, visit StackingBenjamins.com.

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[OG]

I mean you're living in your mother's basement writing a blog on finance.

[Doug]

Really?

[OG]

You should stay off the computer son.

[Doug]

And get a job.

[OG]

Seriously.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and hey, can I see in my office for an impromptu one on one? And when you come, why don't you clean out your desk ahead of time? Ever had that meeting? Well, even if you haven't, it might be coming for you. What do you need to know so you're prepared if your job goes bye bye. On today's show, tips must do tasks and more. Plus we'll answer a question from stacker Shane who thought I'd better call Saul, Sehi and OG about my estate planning. Shane, great planning but we hope you're around for a good long time friend. Oh yeah. And just like the best part of your dream, I'll share a TikTok minute and some incredible trivia. And now two guys who still believe compound interest is the closest thing we have to actual David Copperfield level magic. It's Joe and. Oh, J.J. ju.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Isn't it magic? It's the magic that keeps on giving as long as it's not your credit card interest that's compounding. Hey, everybody. Happy, happy Wednesday. I am Joe Salsi. High average Joe money on the Twitter thing. Super happy that you're here with us on a Wednesday. We have a great show lined up for you. Doug, it just sounded action packed, my friend. Yes. Yes, it did, Joe.

[Doug]

It sure did.

[OG]

Joe Power back on.

[Doug]

That is.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's the way.

[OG]

Yes, it does.

[Doug]

How action packed was it?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's the way the pros do it right here, right at the top of the show.

[OG]

You guys ever seen a David Capperfield show?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I have. I have. Fantastic.

[OG]

Yeah, it's pretty wild.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He took members of the audience on stage and he put them behind members.

[OG]

Of the audience, randomly selected.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And then. And then within 10 seconds, they were in the back of the theater. And I have no idea how he did it. It was pretty amazing they were there. Just. Just getting them off stage in the amount of time that that curtain was up would have been a task on its own. And yet they went from front of the Fox theater in downtown Detroit to the back, and it was incredible.

[OG]

I saw him in Vegas, and I remember going, yeah, I'll just go to this thing. And we sat there and I'm like, okay, it's kind of cute. And then all of a sudden, he started doing stuff like levitating motorcycles and spinning or like hovering himself. And I'm going, okay, this is pretty legit. I don't know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This guy's a pretty secret or two that he knows. It's amazing. Jetpack, obviously, we're going to help you today control the controllable, and we try to do that on every show. But, man, the controllable thing is what to do if you're laid off. The bad news is this often broadside people after that or maybe before that, I don't know. But to have yourself ready to go when the bad stuff happens, something we can control, we're going to help you do that today. Before we do anything, though, we have some sponsors who make sure that we can keep keeping on, keeping on, and you don't have to pay for any of this. Goodness. We're going to say hello to a couple of them, and then we're diving into a big headline from last week that made me sit up in my chair. Let's see if it does the same for you small business owners. State Farms there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options. Offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focused on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. State Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there how high is the interest rate.

[Doug]

For the new Laurel Road High Yield Savings account?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This high.

[Doug]

The air is really, really thin up here. The Laurel Road Very High Yield Savings.

[OG]

Account Variable Annual Percentage Yield APY is subject to change at any time. No minimum balance required. Fees may reduce earnings on the account. For full terms and conditions, see LaurelRoad.com savings. LaurelRoad is a brand of KeyBank member FDIC hello Darlings.

[Doug]

And now it's time for your favorite.

[OG]

Part of the show. Our Stacking Benjamin' Headlines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Our headline today comes to us from Fortune was written by BE Nolan be. Last Monday, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg officially kicked off the company's quote intense year by culling 3600 of the company's quote lowest performers. The CEO has been warning see you. CEOs been warning the cut since mid January, telling staffers via memo that the company raised the bar on performance management, was planning to do more extensive performance based cuts.

[OG]

Isn't that great? Like four whole weeks. You've got to clean up your act. Fix it. By the way, in a couple of weeks from now we're gonna really take a look at performance. Like oh well shoot. Can I get a warning? No, you're gone.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

My bad. You know what though? A lot of workers took the LinkedIn OG after this saying that they were very confused at being laid off. One former employee said she was cut despite reading and exceeds expectations rating on her mid year review. She wrote, I frequently asked for feedback and was always told I was doing a good job. This is Kayla Curry, an ex content manager at Meta. Well X as of a week ago, right I was never placed on a performance improvement plan, never given corrective feedback and never properly mentored or provided clear expectations. I simply put in the work and I'm not a low performer. Also, other news by the way, just pivoting off of this Microsoft. Microsoft has lately been doing stuff that is similar and no severance. I mean no severance, no nothing. Just hey, you're gone. See ya. And you're out. Oh gee I think this is just an important reminder that you might think, like, Kayla, you're doing a good job, walk into your role at Meta and the boss says, hey, let's have a one on one, as Doug said earlier. And then we're off and running in a way that you don't want to go.

[OG]

Well, and even if you do everything right, sometimes those things. And Doug's got much more experience in this than I think you or I do, Joe. But about being let go. Yeah, about being let go. Being let go.

[Doug]

Thanks for teeing that one up.

[OG]

OG Letting go. More like the fact that even if you are a top performer, you're a good performer. Probably not the top performer if you're getting let go. But even if you're a good performer, sometimes those things are out of your supervisor's hands.

[Doug]

Yep.

[OG]

Sometimes it's above them and they get blindsided. Sometimes just as much as you're about to get it too, because they're in a meeting and they go, oh, by the way, we're cutting 17 of your people. And you're like, wait, what? Not Jack. He's one of my guys. Like, sorry, he's got to go. He's got kids, he's got a family. Like, what do I do? It's like, not our problem. He needs to be out of here by Friday. Good luck. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that doesn't happen. Doug.

[Doug]

Oh, no, you're. You described a situation I had almost exactly where I was told, were you.

[OG]

Jack or were you the other guy?

[Doug]

I was. I don't remember who was Jack in your story, but I could tell you I didn't know Jack about it. I was told we're cutting these people. Not like, you need to find X amount of money.

[OG]

Go find people.

[Doug]

Go find people that can add up to this much. No, it was, these are the people. And that was really distressing because some of them felt more like friends than people who work for me. That was really tough. And I've been on the other side of it too, where I've been let go and I've had the really good performance ratings.

[OG]

So, unrelated, we do need to chat for a little bit, but go ahead.

[Doug]

I know, I know. I figured that's where this whole episode was leading. But it is distressing for sure. But it's probably going to happen to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You at some point during your career.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If the average person now lasted a job for only 4.2 years, then the chance that you're going to have one of those jobs end in an impromptu one on one involving an HR rep, the stats are probably pretty good that that's going to happen.

[OG]

You know, and I think that people, while they're generally impromptu, sometimes there's writing on the wall too. You know, whether it's the tacit announcement that happens in January, by the way, we're going to pay more attention to this. And I believe that of those 3,600 people that you're referencing this article, Joe, you know, some of them probably were like, yeah, this is, they're coming from me probably, you know, some of them were surprised, like the woman that you mentioned. But there's some telltale signs. I, I happen to follow some consulting pages on Reddit because that was a field that we were involved in before. And, and so you'll see the people talk about like, you know, they'll say, hey, I just got a, an important meeting scheduled for Friday at 11am with an MD I've never seen before on my calendar that says I can't miss it. What do I do? You know, and it's like, you miss it. Go on sick leave. Go on sick leave on Thursday. That's what you do. And so maybe there's some signs that are coming ahead of time, but sometimes it is out of the blue, right? And I think that's just part of financial planning, is recognizing that life is not going to be a straight line. You know, your investment performance doesn't go up at 8.5% every year. You get 16s and minus 10s and plus 22s and minus fours, it averages eight. And the same thing is going to happen in your work career. You're going to have some banger years where you're like, I can't believe those idiots are keeping me. And then you're going to have some years where you're like, I'm the number one person. I have no idea how the heck they're letting me go, you know, out of left field.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There was a piece recently that aligned with this, I'm sure on [e-mail] I'll link to this also in the show Notes. This is written by CFP Shane Cummings, who talks about the things that you should do. And I thought we'd walk through these OG and expound upon what Shane talks about. Because while Shane, I like your work here, I think on the podcast we can go even a little deeper. But he starts off with the first thing you should do is take stock of your savings and your sources of liquidity. He says you should have some Cash set aside as an emergency fund. But this is clearly the time whether you think you're getting let go or not. Like right now, make sure you've got enough money in liquid places or you know, what you go to first.

[OG]

Well, this is true for any sort of emergency fund, right? It's like that's the whole purpose of having your cash reserve or emergency fund, whatever you want to call it. It's for emergencies that happen, which we think of emergencies like the water heater going out, I need a roof replacement, the car took a crap, and I need a major car repair. But it can also be, I had a medical event and I'm going to be out of work for a period of time and my group disability doesn't cover all of it. Or I had an extended family issue that I had to take some leave time and they're going to pay me for a little bit, but not all of it or something like this where out of the blue I'm out of work for the next little bit. And so there's some science behind this three to six month thing. It's so that you don't have to like rush to make a radical change to your life or try to make decisions while you're stressed. Again, back to Doug. I imagine that in those meetings when you're talking to those people and when you were one of those people, you have so many things going on in your brain, you can't even articulate the question that you want to ask or like what you need to know or how you're going to handle it. And then you get back and maybe that was Friday, but then on Monday you go, okay, I've got my list of questions now. Like, I've taken a half a step back. You know, when does my insurance end? Am I going to get severance? Does my bonus still pay? What happens to my stock options? Like, but in that moment when you're like, hey bud, you're gone, all this stuff is going on and you can't process it. So the idea of having a cash reserve is to give yourself that space where you can pay the bills, put food on the table, everything's okay for a period of time. To give you the time to kind of recalibrate a little bit.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doug, were you to say something?

[Doug]

No, I was just thinking of times when I had been let go. And you think you're listening clearly to all of the, and the HR persons going through very methodically all of the things that, about your insurance and COBRA availability and all of that stuff. And you think, okay, be cool, maintain your calm. I got my emergency fund, I'm set. Maybe your head isn't racing in that moment, because the time I'm thinking of, I did kind of see the writing on the wall. But after that, as you're walking back to your desk to get your box and clear out all your stuff.

[OG]

The walk of shame.

[Doug]

Yeah, the walk of shame. And your head is spinning, then it's like, oh, I've got this trip planned. How am I going to pay for that? Or I got to do these. Well, now I guess I get to do those things with the kids during the day that I didn't. All of that stuff comes just rushing into your head. And all the stuff you thought you were listening to clearly about gets overwhelmed with the new stuff that you start thinking about. And even the focus of this discussion is really emergency planning and what do you do with your personal finances. But do not be afraid to call back and ask HR and ask for clarification and ask them to repeat, they know you're going to do it. Don't be embarrassed. They get it every time. That's what they're there for, so call them back.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

On that note, I found a Believe it or Not, a Great video on TikTok Doug about this very thing from a gentleman who calls himself the employment lawyer.

[Craig Levy]

The HR ambush continues to be the preferred way for companies to fire employees. Here's what you can expect if it happens to you. My name is Craig Levy and I'm an employment law attorney. In the common situation, an employee receives an email from their supervisor asking them to meet with them for a one on one meeting. On short notice. The email won't provide much detail. It will just ask them to meet with them either in person or via Zoom in an hour or 20 minutes or something like that. The employee shows up to the meeting, they see their supervisor, and then they also see an HR representative. This is the moment the employee is often in shock because they realize what is happening. And this meeting often lasts only a few minutes. The supervisor will notify the employee that they're being terminated, then hand it over to HR who will discuss benefits, final paycheck, etc. The employee is often so shocked that they don't ask many questions and they just leave the meeting after being terminated. And this is precisely what the company wants. They don't want the employee to ask a lot of questions because that would put HR and the supervisor in an awkward position. Also, by scheduling the meeting on short notice, the employee can't Prepare by, say, taking confidential information, etc. I typically suggest that employees ask three questions when they're confronted with the HR ambush. Why am I being fired? When do my benefits end? And am I being offered severance? Although the employer may not answer those questions, the more information you can get, the better as it may help the employee for purposes of unemployment benefits and if you have legal claims. So if you are an employee and you are confronted with the HR ambush like this, take a deep breath and ask those questions.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And I think that's great advice. I though Doug to your point. He says take a deep breath. That's. That's really difficult in that second. And I love your advice to don't be afraid to circle back.

[Doug]

Yeah, do it. And I don't know if I completely agree with what he's saying. Where, you know, they don't want you to ask questions. They overwhelm you on purpose so that you don't. I don't know if I believe that because there's not much in it for them. I mean, you can call back and they're going to get. They have to give you answers to those things. So I don't know if I buy that. But I will say in at will employment states, which are a lot, there are a lot of at will employment states here in the United States. You can be as challenging as you want, you can be as confrontational as you want, and they don't have to answer your questions. They can just say, we don't feel like this is the right relationship anymore and we're terminating your employment. They don't have to give you anything. See ya. And so it's kind of like you're almost never going to get any satisfaction or gratification out of. Out of that. Because if the manager or the HR person has any experience doing this, they're just going to like literally clam up, shut their mouths and not say a word because they know they're just going to get in trouble, possibly or get the company in trouble by answering any of your questions. They don't have to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't want to play their side of the game, though. I think it's still your job to ask. I think you should still ask those three questions.

[OG]

I think the other piece of it too is don't be afraid not to not sign anything.

[Doug]

Oh, sure.

[OG]

I think so many times, you know, it's like, okay, cool, if you're good with this here, sign here. Be like, yeah, I'm going to take a day to. They can't Force you to sign anything, Right?

[Doug]

Correct. You absolutely should take a day for all those reasons we said before. You may think you're thinking clearly and you've been to this rodeo before, or you've been on the other side of the table and it's not my first.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Time being let go.

[Doug]

Right.

[OG]

Or, you know, oh, thank God this is happening again. Let me get out my notepad.

[Doug]

Just save your breath. Give me the pen, I'll sign. No, exactly. No. Take it home.

[OG]

Or, you know, if you're experienced, you can be like Coach Oon from lsu. Here's his story of when he got fired.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I gotta tell you, we had a meeting. Say, coach, things are not going well. No, Rachel can see that, brother.

[Doug]

So what's next?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well. Well, I got. I gotta tell you this, though. Say, Coach, you got $17.1 million on your contract. We're gonna give it to you. I said, what time you want me to leave, what door you want me out of, brother? That's a severance.

[OG]

Yeah, you'd be like Coach Ozrad. We gonna give it all to you. What time you want me to leave and what door you want me to go out.

[Doug]

So good.

[OG]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So back to the emergency fund then. We want the emergency fund in place before any of this. Even if we think that my job is safe. Because as I think we made a good case for this can happen anytime. Because there's so much money there. Oh, gee, I think a high yield savings account, probably what's in order. And I wouldn't go with just any old high yield savings account.

[OG]

Well, from a savings and cash standpoint, absolutely. Just savings at your bank. If you want to fiddle around with trying to find a good interest rate, so be it. I mean, we're talking about six months worth of expenses. So what number is that? The 20 grand? 30 grand? 40 grand? 50 grand? You know, $100,000. It's some number, right? And you say, well, if. If I get a high yield account, I'm getting 4%. If I put it at my bank, I'm getting one, you know. Yeah, that's some money, you know, you're talking about if you have $100,000, that's $3,000. But most people don't have 100,000 in their savings account. They have 20. You're talking about 600 bucks. Make it simple. Go get your $600 if you want it. But don't stress about trying to find the absolute best one every single time. You know it's going to change. But there's plenty of places that you can go to search for. But yeah, definitely we're not investing this money. This isn't long term money. This is safe and secure, guaranteed by the government to be there any day you need it.

[Doug]

I want to challenge that only a little bit, but leading to a point. So according to forbes, more than one in four Americans have savings below $1,000. And I'm just thinking of the statement you just made og about, you know, most people have less than you know or about what would you say? 20?

[OG]

No, I didn't say most.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't think he says most people.

[OG]

Don'T have 100,000, but at most they would have 20.

[Doug]

All right, okay, well, but this is saying 28% have savings below a thousand. 32% are Gen Zers followed by millennials or 31% have below a thousand. Gen Xers 27%. And where I'm leading with all of this as it pertains to, you know, really got to work on that emergency fund is you can find $10 a week, 10 bucks a week for a year. Right. Do that for a couple of years while you're working. There's your thousand bucks. And if you already have a thousand, now you're at 2,000. So I know there's a lot of people listening who think, I don't know where I'm going to find $1,000. Don't find a thousand, find ten. And just do it slowly. We all can find ten bucks.

[OG]

Yeah. The reality is, is that if you have a thousand in your money, you know, your money market account, your thousand in your savings account, you are playing with fire every minute of every day. So the faster that you solve that problem, the more comfortable you're going to feel. For sure.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You've got to. Some people have a tax return possibly coming. That's a way to jumpstart it. If you have a tax refund.

[OG]

Yeah. If you talk to anybody who's had a thousand bucks and then they have 10,000, they're like, oh my gosh, it's not any difference. Talk to people have 10 and all of a sudden they have 25. They're like the level of stress is exponentially declining as your savings account balance increases.

[Doug]

Maybe the challenge for a lot of people isn't as much finding the 10 bucks a week. It's in not spending the thousand dollar tax return that they just got.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, yeah, I think that's a big thing. This is why I like that emergency fund to be at a different bank or in a separate account is because of the fact that there's a little bit of friction there.

[Doug]

Right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I've got to go to the separate account to grab that money, and my brain doesn't have that commingled with everything else. And so I can lay a little bit of guilt on myself for doing that. This is guilt in a good way beyond having that emergency fund. Second thing is, OG before, while you're game, fully employed, this is another reason to keep that debt level low. Right? You want to make sure that when you get let go that you don't have a mountain of debt payments that you have to make every month that are all going to come out of that emergency fund quicker.

[OG]

Yeah. I mean, this is the case for. Why do you want your house paid off? You have a great 2% mortgage. Why would you want to pay this off so aggressively? Like, the money is better to be invested and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, yeah, I know, but there's another side of that stick. There's the other end of that, which is to be considered, which is if I don't have a mortgage payment, I don't need to have that much as much of an emergency fund. Right? Like, that's one less thing to worry about. If I don't have a car payment, that's that many less payments I need to have set aside in my savings account. If I don't have credit card bills or student loans, that's. Those are less payments that I need set aside. It's profound, and I've written this roller coaster over the years of my life of, like, having debt, not having debt, having lots of it, having a little bit of it. And it is really profound, the volatility of your cash flow when you know, this card has a $500 payment, that card has a $500 payment. Oh, you got a car loan. That's a thousand. You know, it's like all these things, and all of a sudden you look down, you're like, dude, I got to make 10 grand just to be even money for the month. That doesn't include the fact that I need to make ten grand to pay for my lifestyle. You know, put food on the table and put gas in the car and all that sort of stuff. It's like, it's so insidious that you don't feel it in the moment. It's only when you look backward and you go, wait a second, you know, why. Why are we, like, treading water here? Our lips are barely above it, and you go, well, you know, I got a. I got this $5,000 a month bill that I need to cover on the 1st of every month no matter what happens. You know, that's $30,000 if you're having six months, right? If you have five grand a month of credit card bills or car loans or student loans or mortgages, it's 30 grand you need to have in your emergency fund for six months, not including the 30 grand you need, like, you know, for $10,000 a month or 5,000amonth to live, putting food on the table.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And that gets to the next piece that Shane writes about, which is beginning to track your expenses toward working on a budget to know what your budget is and to keep that budget in line. It's funny, you may be living high in the hog, as mom says right now, but if the worst hits out of the blue tomorrow, it's going to be difficult then to pivot right to make that change. Two things that I like in this area. OG Number one is I love the weekly meeting. For this reason, we take out our Monarch Money app. Cheryl and I, we talk about what our expenses are going to be the next week. That helps us hold each other accountable to what those expenses are. And then second, I also love meal prep. When Cheryl and I don't do the weekly meal prep, you know what happens? We end up eating at restaurants far more often. We do the weekly meeting enough that I know if I, if I do the. The meeting, that's fine. And we look at each other and Cheryl and I go, oh, yeah, we're just gonna eat out on, on Thursday. Let's say we're gonna go out to eat on Thursday after work. That'll be our one night. If we haven't done any meal prep, we're going out to eat four nights because the refrigerator's empty. We're not really sure what. What's. What's what. It's. It's, you know, you get busy. So those two things for me.

[OG]

And you don't have to use, you know, in the Monarch app or any money app. You don't have to, like, spend all the time and energy to categorize everything accurately. And you could just have an idea of what you spend and then maybe you decide to categorize.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It could be your banking app.

[OG]

Well, the nice thing about all these apps is once you categorize something, the one time it has, you know, has a memory, it's going to go, oh, the build a principle is your life insurance. I know that. That's life insurance. You know, you don't have to do that ever again. So it's really just kind of a like anything else, any other system. It's the time and energy you spend to set it up and then the back end of it doesn't have any sort of setup time. It's just maintenance from that point forward. But yeah, if you don't know how much you spend, how are you going to know how much you need to have set aside? Or you know, like it's, I mean, how do you even know how much you need to retire with? It's you need that number. You need your spending number.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Last on Shane's list. I think we're taking a call from Shane later. Is it just Shane Day? It's Shane Day. It's all things Shane on the Stacking Benjamin show today. Last is review and understand your employer benefits. And the big thing OG people got to understand is cobra. And COBRA in a few cases isn't incredibly expensive. But man, most of the time I.

[OG]

Feel like, oh, it's insanely expensive cobra.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And your benefits just get ready to pay through the nose for the same stuff that you took for granted while you were employed. The good news is, Shane writes, since the passage of the Affordable Care act, some states have introduced their own state specific health insurance marketplaces. Happen to be in a state with a competitive marketplace, you may find options that are more cost competitive than COBRA with different coverage features. You may be willing to trade a lower monthly premium for a plan with higher deductibles or co pays. If you happen to reside somewhere with few state options, your best option may differ. So I think that you're going to have a bunch of work to do on your employer benefits side. By the way, we have a guide for that stacky Benjamins.com benefits that can help you as well when it comes to understanding what your benefit options are. And there's a section on COBRA there as well.

[Doug]

But great news, you've got time now to do that work to dig into it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, hopefully you're doing most of this Doug, while you're employed so you can easily, easily get there later. Yeah. And then last, it's always funny because I've been spending more time on LinkedIn lately, but I noticed that when people lose their job, you'll see some of your friends just all of a sudden show up on LinkedIn and they're there for about six weeks because they lost their job, they found a new job. And I think just cultivating your LinkedIn profile a little bit and also keeping that resume up to date is a great idea. We dive into topics like these on Our newsletter, the201stackingbenchments.com 201 it's a free newsletter. You get it every week from us. And the good news is when we head out like we did this week, YouTube yahoos while we are here are probably hanging out with some of our Stacker friends in real life. A few and I was in Seattle recently. But we can send you the notice if you're in the area. If you subscribe to the201Stacky Benjamins.com201 all right, coming up in the second half of this show, the Shane Fest continues as we get a call from Stacker Shane. And I've got a TikTok minute that also has to do with with some of your estate planning as well. We're we're talking estate planning in the second half. But before we get there, Doug, you've got today's trivia question.

[Doug]

Sure do, Joe. Hey there Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and imagine creating the first phonograph for you gen zers out there. Phonograph is that thing your grandparents used to play records on. Oh, records? Are those flat round? Never mind. Thomas Edison patented the first one on today's date way back in 1878. One fella who made tons of Benjamins singing songs on that magical spinning round music machine was a guy named what? You know what? Let's just make that today's trivia question. This one's going to be tough for our Gen Z Stackers, but here we go. Which singer who celebrates a birthday today made tons of money from songs like Tears of a Clown? I'll be back right after I get the El Camino ready to go cruising on a Wednesday afternoon?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[OG]

The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. This episode is brought to you by Atlassian. Atlassian makes the team collaboration software that powers enterprise businesses around the world, including over 80% of the Fortune 500. With Atlassian's AI powered software like Jira, Confluence and Loom, you'll have more time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

To do the work that matters.

[OG]

In fact, Atlassian customers experience a 25% reduction in project duration per year. Unleash the potential of your team at Atlassian Atlassian.

[Doug]

Hey there stackers. I'm S.B. cruise, Director and guy who moves like the hula dancer Dashboard Ornament Joe's mom's neighbor Doug Thomas Edison filed the patent for the phonograph on today's date, way back in 1878. Had he not done that, there wouldn't have ever been eight tracks. And had those not happened, there wouldn't have been cassette tapes. And if those hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been able to make mixtapes to try to get laid in college. I'm kidding. And had those not happened, no CDs. And had those not happened, no MP3s. Which means had those not happened, I wouldn't be in your ears right now. So from the bottom of my heart, Tommy, a big thanks from all of us here at Stacking Benjamin's. One guy who also thanked Ol Tommy E by singing some of the greatest hits of radio had a birthday today. He sang songs like Cruisin and Tears of a Clown. Today's trivia question what's the birthday boy's name? Of course, it's none other than Smokey Robinson. Did you get it right? Are you under 30? And you got it right? If so, be the first one to write to Gertrude. That's [e-mail] and you'll be taking home some sweet SB swag. And be sure to include a copy of Your an original copy with the embossment of your birth certificate as well as your Social Security number. And we'll give you a sweet T shirt for that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And the name of your first pet, the first house you lived in, the elementary school you attended, mother's maiden name.

[Doug]

Just a couple of small details. Ah, we're kidding. It's the honor system. People don't cheat by having your Gen X friend help you out either. And now two guys who always need all the help they can get. Here's Joe and Og.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, I see what you did there, man. Happy birthday to Smokey Robinson. Og, you big Smokey Robinson fan.

[OG]

I don't know who that is, so I'm not really a big fan.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No cruising on a Wednesday afternoon for you. Hey, time for our tick tock minute. This is the part of the show where we shine a light on a either some tick tock brilliance. I think we had some. I like that, that lawyer's piece earlier, but either some brilliance or some air quotes Brilliance. This one has to do with your estate plan. Oh, gee, you think we've got some brilliant estate planning or some air quotes. Brilliant estate planning.

[OG]

Oh, it's on the talk. It's going to be brilliant. Obviously.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Duh. Well, and I think this might be. This is how you know when it's probably time to disconnect you from life support. If two days pass during which I have not asked for a Manhattan, a glass of Chardonnay or chocolate, go ahead.

[Doug]

And pull the plug.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't think, I don't think yours would be the same og, but I think you probably have a list. If two days have gone by and I haven't asked for Woodford, I haven't told one of my children.

[OG]

I don't do that anymore. I'm just water, sparkling water.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If I haven't asked for sparkling water or bean sprouts.

[OG]

Bean sprouts. Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think we do pull the plug if he's asking for bean sprouts. We're like, what the hell happened to og? Clearly his brain is gone.

[OG]

It was way more fun when he was hammered most of the time.

[Doug]

I think Mrs. OG would be like, he has spent $5,000 in the last two days. He's clearly brain dead.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Something, something is definitely up today with all that.

[OG]

Something's wrong.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I gotta say a big thanks to Stacker Jaylen for sending that to me. If you've got some goodness from Tik Tok or Instagram Facebook reels that you want me to take a look at, stacky benjamin.com joe@stacky ben.com all right that is a nice lead in to a stacker who said hey better call saul see hi and OG if you've got a question for OG and I head to stacking benjamins.com voicemail and you can be as cool as stacker Shane Hey Shane, how's it going man?

[Shane]

Good morning Joe and OG neighbor Doug. I love listening to you guys a show. You guys freaking kill it. My wife and I are in her late 30s and she works and I run her small business. We've been maxing out our Roth IRAs for years and more recently started maxing out our solo Roth 401k for the business. We're very forward thinking and so my question is this. With the new Secure Act 2.0 they've changed the rules in regards to inherited Roth IRAs. I've read through IRS Publication 590B but I'm curious about your opinions. They now require even inherited Roth IRAs to be fully withdrawn within 10 years of them being inherited. If you're not a spouse, other exceptions. What would you consider to be a good practice for our kids? Do you think that having it in a trust or having a trust would make any difference? We definitely won't use the money in our lifetimes or would be able to legally gift it to them without surpassing the gift tax. We do plan on passing it to our kids should they just withdraw it and feed it into the Rome Rother IRAs. What are your thoughts? Finally, hopefully you guys will come to Kansas City again soon. Thanks again guys. Later.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Love Kansas City Shane. Absolutely love our time in Kansas City.

[OG]

Sadly just up the road.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, my daughter doesn't live there anymore but we'd love to come back.

[OG]

So Joe has no interest in being there. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So no, I'm not coming to Kansas City.

[OG]

Oh hell no.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It'd be fun to do a road trip to Kansas City.

[Doug]

We have a few stackers there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We do. We've got great stackers there. And I have a friend who's son plays on the Kansas City Royals and scoreboard. We may be going to see him next year.

[Doug]

Sounds like corporate outing to me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It does, it does. To go see Michael walk up Hitch who's from Texarkana originally.

[Doug]

It's pretty unfortunate name for a pitcher. Walker.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Like a walker. Yeah it is. But man, you look at his stats.

[OG]

But he's playing in the majors.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He's either lighting it up or he's hurt one. One or the other. If he's on the mound he's going to be pretty up. All right, let's talk about this Secure 2.0. What is an inherited IRA for people that don't even know anything about this? OG let's start there. Because he's worried about inherited IRAs and the fact that when he dies, the kid's got to take money out of it over a set time frame. Is inherited IRA, does that have something to do with IRAs you inherit? OG yeah.

[OG]

Weird. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow, this is cryptic.

[OG]

They do a good job of putting those things together.

[Doug]

Why don't they just name things like.

[OG]

They are, give it to the government.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Okay, but let's talk about the part people might not know, because I think a lot of people, at least in my family would not know this, that there actually is a provision where when I inherit an ira, I don't have to take it all out at once.

[OG]

Well, no, but you have to take some out every year and then the rest has to be out by the 10th year. So there's a schedule that you have to follow. This is kind of up in the air. They made a final ruling on this last summer. You have to follow the schedule based on your age and then at the end of the 10th year, all of the money needs to be out. And so you know, from an estate planning standpoint, if you have a large IRA balance and you say, well, I'm going to, you know, this is going to be, I'm 80 and I'm going to die and this money's going to go to my 60, 55 year old kid and you know, they're going to inherit $2 million of an IRA. You could see that all of a sudden you put 2 million on your tax return. That's a big tax bill, you know, so it does warrant some planning. This guy's young. I get that he's wanting to think about it in advance, but he asked a number of questions, right? Like what do I do with my Roth? Well, should the kids take it out in one lump sum? Should they delay it? Like, what do they do? Should we gift it to them early with the gift tax rules the way they are? And the reality is, is that there are so many changes that are going to happen over this family's lifetime, over my lifetime, over your guys lifetime. From an estate planning standpoint, there is no perfect strategy to go, all right, I did it when I was 39, I don't have to think about this again. You're going to have to think about this every four or five or six years, going, what's the new, new thing because they're going to be changing it. A great example of this is the Roth IRA piece that he's talking about or the, you know, the inherited IRA distribution piece. Even with Roths right now, he would have his kids inherit his accounts, preferably through a trust or some sort of estate planning mechanism. When he says kids, I think people under the age of 18. So you don't want to give a minor a bunch of money that ends badly because now the courts are involved. So yeah, you have to have a trust, you have to have a guardianship. All of this needs to go through a proper estate plan because you have business, you have real estate, property, you have investments, you have qualified investments, not qualified investments, you know, and, and then you have your goals of what you want to have happen. Do you want your kids to get a million bucks at age 18? Do you want them to get little drips of it until they're 40? You know, how do you picture all of this? You know, if you do get hit by the bus tomorrow, like what would you want to have happen? And really, you solve that problem as it's written today. So you go, here are the rules today, let's solve it. And then part of your process of revisiting your estate plan is every so often you have to go, did they change any of the rules? And do I want to take advantage of any differences that have happened in our professional careers? Joe, the estate tax limit has been 13 million and zero and every number in between. You know, when I started, when you started this work, the estate tax limit was 600,000. Every dollar above 600k was taxed at 55%. You go, oh my God, that's insane. Well, now it's 13 million per person. So you can get 26 million, give or take in a family if you do it the right way. So you go, I'll never pay state taxes. Well, hold on. Some of that estate tax money went to states as part of their budgetary process. So some states have gone, well, this number's so high, we're not getting any money. We're going to have our own estate tax now because we're not getting anything. And so where you live is going to matter. And you go, well, I used to live in Minnesota and now I moved to Florida because I'm retired. Does that change anything? Absolutely, it changes stuff. It's not a one time thing. And this is true for all sorts of planning, not just your estate plan. But you can't let that be a detriment or a deciding factor in not doing something. Well, it's going to change in the next 20 years. So I'll just wait till I'm a little older before I do it. Because, like we talked about, about the job loss, you know, you get by a bus anytime. You never know. And so you got to have. You got to have the protections in place. Absolutely. Meet with an estate planning attorney. You lay this all out for them. Here's where the money is. Here's where the stuff is. Here's where the property is. Here's the names and ages of my kids. What should I do? And then they put together a plan for you and go, here's how we structure this to have the lowest amount of taxes possible and the most amount of flexibility.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And then we tweak later as the rules change.

[OG]

Well, I mean, rules change, you know, if you live. If you did this when you're 39 and your kids are 5 and 6, and then you go, oh, we have to revisit our estate plan when you're 72, you go, like, well, maybe my kids are good. We've had these conversations with clients where they go, you know, I used to want to take care of my kids. My kid's a surgeon. Like, he's loaded. That family's good. My other kid's a teacher. You know, they're both doing great work. We're proud of both of them. But from a money standpoint, we kind of want to. We don't want it to be 50, 50 anymore. They don't want it to be 50, 50 anymore. The heart surgeon's got all sorts of money. The teacher doesn't. Let's. We want to change it that way. Or our kids are crazy, but our grandkids are awesome. So we want to give the money to the grandkids. You know, I mean, stuff changes as time goes on, and that's just part of your process. No different than you review your retirement plan to make sure your investments are doing well and you're on track. You got to review your estate plan, too.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Shane, you asked if it's a good practice to put these IRAs in a trust. You cannot put IRAs in a trust. They can't be. They have to be in your name. You can.

[OG]

The beneficiary can be a trust.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You can make the beneficiary a trust.

[OG]

But that adds some complexity to it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but you got to do it the right way, because if you don't do it, the Right way. Then all that 10 year stuff goes out the window. You got to do it right away. Yeah, take all the money out. Day one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This is where it's got to dovetail with the rest of your financial plan. We don't want to be a bleak. But based on what your net worth is and how you're going to want to take distributions, you're going to decide whether with your estate attorney, whether you're going to have the trust be the beneficiary or not of that. Great question. So there's no time like now to get your estate plan finished.

[OG]

Do it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And if OG is ever asking for Brussels sprouts over a two day period, time to pull the plug. That's the other thing I learned my. Or were they something?

[OG]

My estate planning attorney sends a note card to everybody you list in the estate plan that just says in the event that something happens to og, you have something to do, contact our office. And so my brother got one of these because he's in our estate plan. And he said, hey, I got this thing from entry, like, what's this about? I said, oh, you know, and this is when I was newly married. I said, I just don't think it's right to have to put this on my new bride or mom, but I need you to decide the plug pulling. And he goes, oh, okay, when do we do that? Can I do that now? How long do I have to wait?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Who's getting this misery?

[OG]

I hope now. Yeah, it's going to suck regardless for everybody. So let's just do it right now, please. I said, rip up that card that you got. You have no job anymore. He's like, sir, he's here for an ankle fracture. Pull it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Pull plug.

[OG]

He's in pain. I can tell. Of course he's in pain. He broke his ankle. We gave him some Demerol. He'll be okay. Pull the plug, sir. Get off of him. Do not put a pillow on his face.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sir, I'm the dentist. This is just a tooth cleaning. Pull the plug. Time to go.

[OG]

Please stop smothering.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Benjamin.com voicemail gets you through to us and we'd be happy to answer your question. Thanks a ton for that question, Shane. And hopefully we see you in Kansas City, Casey. Time for us to head out to the back porch, guys. What's going on in Stackerland, Doug?

[Doug]

Well, I'll tell you what this is a topic just exploded. It erupted. It just metamorph, metastasized. It just got so huge. All because a couple of weeks Ago on one of our round tables, the word ruminant came up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think it was a Paula pantword, wasn't it?

[Doug]

It was a Paula Pantword, which, I mean, no shock there. She makes it her job to use as many $12 words as she can in our Friday roundtables, and she chose ruminant. And I can't remember who it was. Maybe it was Paula herself. But we were talking about horses as ruminant animals, and it turns out that's not correct. Alyssa Erlinson showed us a photo of her house, her horse and her house, maybe, I don't know, but her horse in the basement. Facebook group and man, the horse lovers came out of the woodwork.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There was a lot.

[Doug]

There were so many horse stackers. Horse stackers, I think is what we call them. They came out of the woodwork. We got photos from TL Moore, who said, best view in the world from.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The saddle of Teal's horse. That was pretty cool.

[Doug]

Yeah. Carrie Hyde Michaels, who showed her beautiful horse and wrote, I'm going to be making HELOC payments on this guy till we're both dead. You know, and then there was Brittany, Stephanie, and even, of course, Shane.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There's got to be a Shane. How many Shanes are we going to have today?

[Doug]

Unbelievable. And are we going to. Should we say now that if people stick around for the rest of the episode, they'll hear Shane Gillis, our special guest?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He's coming up.

[Doug]

He'll be on later. But thanks for sharing your horse picks, everybody. And now if just all of the El Camino lovers can get together and share your favorite.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Somebody was talking about them bringing the El Camino back.

[Doug]

They are. They're bringing it back, though, sadly, as an electric vehicle. But they are.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Ruins the whole vibe, doesn't it? Ruins the whole vibe, yeah. How can you have Bondo on an electric vehicle like that? Just those two things. I don't know.

[Doug]

They go well together, right? But the great thing is the new Camino, El Camino coming out will come with the. It's pre bondoed.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, good.

[Doug]

Because they know it's going to happen eventually, so they're just going to do it for you right out of the bat, you know. Who was it? It was Carrie Hyde Michaels who said she's going to be making HELOC payments till they're both dead. Which I thought was a hilarious comment. And it reminded me of a time my oldest son Ski raced. And he Ski raced, I'll say, at a. Largely at a national level. The cost of that was staggering. And you know, every sports parent sits around and complains about how much ice time is if your kid's into hockey or, you know, travel for basketball or something. Ski racing. I. We've done the math. Ski racing is way above all of those.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Another level.

[Doug]

It's a whole nother level. And we're sitting around bitching about it, as all parents do, and one guy just stayed quiet the whole time, and he finally said, you all lose. His son was in ski racing, but he had a daughter who was an equestrian. And he went through the finances of what it takes for his daughter to have a horse. And that, like, it was the ultimate trump card. Just. Just shut us all down. We couldn't say a word. It was like a factor of 10 higher. It was unreal how expensive it is to have a kid who's, you know, you're keeping another living thing alive. They have to have a staff to keep the thing alive. You know, you got to pay people to where they're boarded and they're getting shoe. You talked about how expensive just shooing these things are.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And if you want to win the Kentucky Derby, it's a whole different.

[Doug]

Well, she wasn't a racer. She was doing jumping. She actually went to college on a scholarship for jumping, which I didn't even know that was a thing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Stacker. Derek owns a racehorse. I'm 99. Sure he's talked about his racehorse.

[Doug]

That's pretty sweet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

In the past. Yeah. Part of an ownership group. You know, where they put a bunch of people. I mean, that's how expensive it gets. You can't use just your money. You gotta have eight people who flush their money down the toilet.

[Doug]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Doug]

Yeah, that is. That's a whole different thing too. But. But that was. It's a fun conversation about. And by the way, we still haven't said what makes something ruminant or not ruminant.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wasn't multiple stomachs.

[Doug]

Yeah. Four stomachs. So cows and. And. But horses only have one stomach, which is why it's accurate when Joe's mom says, I eat like a horse.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. You're going to pay.

[Doug]

The whole thing. You're going to pay for thing was a lead up to that joke.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That was so. It was so, so bad. Mom's been a pain lately, by the way. She has been horrible. She told me I have to stop acting like a flamingo. So that's where I put my foot down.

[Doug]

Can. Can I do the credits now?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What. What should we have learned today?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from our headline. Sure, your job seems safe, but times are always changing. Better dust off your resume. Say hello to a few friends on LinkedIn. Keep your resume updated. You might need it when you least expect it. Second, your estate plan. You never know when you're gonna need it, but someday you definitely will. So, speaking of will, let's get that done, too. But the big lesson, don't ask Joe's mom about life support and her wishes. Her wishes have something to do with me and washing windows if I don't want to end up on life support myself. God, Ma, why choose violence? Come on. Lady has no soft edges. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stacking benjamin's.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think this is an important time for me to talk about tide pooling.

[Doug]

Tide pooling? What?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I went to Olympic national park, and we're going to talk more about that on the Stacking Adventure show for people that want to dive into my whole trip. But Doug, I've. Oh, gee, by the way. Had to go to a client meeting. So it's just you, me, which is this important topic of tide pooling. I was.

[Doug]

Oh, joy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I was a week younger than I am today when I learned what tide pooling is. Along the coast of Olympic national park, there's these rocky shorelines, and if you go there around low tide, you go about an hour, hour and a half before low tide that these rocky areas are filled with water as the tide recedes. And now you have these just pools that are. It's funny because our friend Libby Gifford from Fincon told Crystal Hammond and I on the podcast about tide pooling. So I told Cheryl, and she's like, yeah, okay. So we march down this place where Libby told us to go called Rialto beach, and we get to the rocky area and we start walking around the rocks. And Cheryl's like, well, this is a whole lot of nothing. Like, this was horrible. Maybe three minutes after she said that, Doug, we hit the jackpot.

[Doug]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So many starfish, hermit crabs fighting each other and just moving all over the place.

[Doug]

And then anemones.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anemone. Tons of. Tons and tons of anemones. Just so we. We must have stayed out there for two hours just walking around the rocks. It was fantastic.

[Doug]

Yeah, it's like 20 or 100 little aquariums that you can just go from one tide pool to the next. It's fantastic. I've done that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Cheryl said the same thing. She's like, this is fun at the aquarium, but out here in real life, knowing that this is just part of the ocean living and I get to sit here and watch it was phenomenal. I would recommend this to everybody.

[Doug]

It is so peaceful and fascinating and it's exciting and calming all at the same time. It is a really cool thing to do. It's worth sort of planning out depending on when you're there and when low tide is going to be. Sometimes it doesn't happen at the most convenient hour, but it is worth scheduling some time to do. I agree.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

As you know, Cheryl and I love national parks. We've been to over 40 national parks. This is our second trip to Olympic. And what's weird is, you know, the first time we went, Nick had maybe been there for a year, so maybe we went seven years ago. And what's wild, Doug, is I can't remember hardly anything of that trip. And for the longest time I couldn't figure out why. And then I figured it out when I was out there, which is that this park is actually so far from Seattle. Seattle. And we tried to go in one day all the way down to this area called the Whole Rainforest because of the fact that there's so many woods in the way that they're nestled in these forests, nestled into the mountains. It creates these rainforests which are just. They're really spooky and mystical and just absolutely beautiful. We made it all the way down to the whole rainforest and back in one day. And that's why I don't remember it is because I remember even telling Cheryl we shouldn't do this because this is way too, too much to pack into a day. I think we got back to Seattle around 3:00am oh. Oh, it was horrible. It was. It was just horrible. So this time we went for a whopping two days and we stayed at a lodge out on the beach and it was fabulous. And I finally figured out, I always thought that Olympic national park was about those beautiful mountains in Hurricane Ridge. And that. That was what it was all about. That's great. That's fine.

[Doug]

Truly.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

These beaches.

[Doug]

You think it was the coastline?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, I thought the coastline was great. I thought the coastline was fantastic. And the two monster lakes, one near the north end, one near the south end, Crescent Lake on the north end. And I'm not going to remember the name of the one on the south end. I should have been better prepared for that, but it was seeing the elk.

[Doug]

Wow.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I can. I could never see enough elk. By the way, those things are so damn big.

[Doug]

They're massive. Closer to moose than deer.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. You think to yourself, you're like, oh, this is going to be just like a deer, but bigger. To your point, just that thing will run you over, not even think about it.

[Doug]

Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up first when you said tide pooling, I thought it was something that, like, happens at a swinger club or something. Like, I wasn't sure where you were.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Going because I'm with. I'm big in the swingers clubs.

[Doug]

Well, I've never heard of it as a verb, have you. Have you dug. Have you done tide pooling? I hope so.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do I not seem clean?

[Doug]

But yeah, I mean, this summer, actually it was. Was really right at the week after Labor Day, the fintern and I, maybe we could talk about this on. On Stacking Adventures sometime. But the fintern and I rented an RV and drove from basically the whole, or at least 80% of the coast of Oregon down to Redwoods national park and then back up through the center of Oregon through Crater Lake. And that was where I was just referring to. We did a bunch of tide pooling as well. And yeah, didn't expect it really didn't go there for that purpose. But one of our hikes, we saw this little spur trail that went off that wasn't part of the official trail, but we kind of could see that it might have gone somewhere cool. And that was one of the highlights of the whole trip, as it usually is. Right. It's the thing you're not planning on doing that turns out to be one of the highlights. But we just went down there and like, everything stopped. Just time stopped.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And I felt the same way.

[Doug]

Oh, God. It was just. So Finn went off kind of up the shore, probably another 200 yards. So, you know, I just. I was by myself for that time. And. And it's. When I think of that trip, it's one of the first things that. That shows up Is that time near low tide on the rocky shore.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We almost made it to Crater Lake. We actually went cross country skiing just outside of Crater Lake. And sadly, by the time we made it to Crater Lake, I didn't realize how late in the day it was, number one. And number two, also, the fact that we were running out of gas and it was snowing really hard. So between all those things, I'm like, I do not want to go out there. There's no gas. There is a gas station, but it's already closed.

[Doug]

There was a ways away.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, it said there was a gas station at the ranger station.

[Doug]

Oh, on the other. Yeah, that entrance. Yep, that's right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There is, but it was closed. And Nick, my son, was like, somebody open it for us. You got to go to Crater Lake. You got to go. You got to go. We got to go. We got to go. We got to push through. I'm like, our car rental car is going to run off the road with all the snow, number one. Number two, I'm not going to be banging on doors, hoping I get the dude with the key to the gas.

[Doug]

Pump so I can do it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So we almost made it. So we're going to go this fall. This fall.

[Doug]

Oh, okay. It snowed. It didn't accumulate, but it snowed while we were there on what would have been like, September 12th or something like that. We got up there to the parking lot at the edge of Crater Lake, and it was just raining sideways, and then that eventually turned into kind of a slushy snow. So if you're going in, you know, late summer or September, you're not guaranteed of totally warm weather. We kind of burned a whole day because the weather stunk. We luckily we had a day to burn, but we did not get out and hike. We just kind of spent it in the rv.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, in Libby Gifford, who, again, was our friend who was on Stacking Adventures, who was talking about all these different places, she said that Crater Lake, that hike was one of her favorite hikes.

[Doug]

Yeah. I mean, I could go on for a while. What? Like, when I think of the hikes we did in the Oregon coast, where we were finding places that were just along the side of the road and there were very few other people those I far preferred then. And you've heard this is the same story I've told you about a lot of national parks I've gone to, where I've been disappointed in how many people there are. Crater Lake was packed, and it wasn't even high season. It was after labor day and you're on the trail with 120 of your best friends. There are some other trails that are absolutely off, you know, the less popular ones because you're not going to get the view of the lake or, you know, you're just kind of walking through the woods. If you want to be alone, you can. But that spectacular view of the lake that you want, everybody else is getting the same hike and the great part is, is that they make them accessible from your vehicle so you can do a three mile round trip hike, get these incredible views. That's great for people who don't do a lot of outdoor work time. But if you are somebody who does a lot in the outdoors and likes to be alone, do it for the views, but not for the tranquility.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, this is where, you know, Libby said get there early. I mean, go, go early in the day before people. A ton of people show up. Generally I like to hike early in the morning anyway and then take it easy in the middle of the day when the trails get packed. It's funny, you talk about snow in September. It just reminded me of that old movie from the 80s, Johnny Dangerously. Remember that movie featuring Michael Keaton. And that movie opens with Joe Piscopo. That's right. It opens with a snowy scene in Chicago and the narrator says it was the worst July ever.