Why High Earners Still Feel Broke (And What to Do About It) SB1851

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: Why High Earners Still Feel Broke (And What to Do About It) – SB1851

Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy, Josh “OG” Bannerman, CFP
Guests: Paula Pant (Afford Anything), Jesse Kramer (Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors)
Date: June 5, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives into a timely and perplexing question: Why do so many high earners still feel broke? Despite rising incomes and a booming stock market, many people earning six figures (and beyond) report ongoing stress, anxiety, and a feeling of being financially strapped. The hosts and guests unpack the psychological and practical reasons behind this paradox and offer guidance for regaining a sense of financial security and satisfaction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Doesn’t High Income Guarantee Financial Security?

[11:00]

• Jesse Kramer: There are more things than ever to spend money on today: fast delivery, services, experiences, kids’ activities, etc. For high earners, it often isn’t “enough” because every increase in income tends to drive “lifestyle inflation”—higher spending rather than more saving.
• Quote: “There are probably more things today that we can spend money on than ever before in history.” – Jesse Kramer [11:05]

[12:31]

• Paula Pant: Disagrees that higher income naturally brings more anxiety. More income means more options and "optionality." If you worry about losing your income, the solution is to save and invest more.

[13:22]

• Joe Saul-Sehy: Sometimes, financial success doesn't “feel” any better, which may be a psychological adjustment. Success doesn't always match expectations.

[13:47] – [15:26]

• OG: Obligations grow as your income and life expand. The drive to “keep up with the Joneses” is ever-present. There's always “another thing” to want or upgrade to, creating perpetual dissatisfaction.
• Quote: “There’s always something above it... some of those things are a good thing to do... but at some point, you just gotta go: okay, enough is enough.” – OG [14:52]

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The Role of Lifestyle Inflation and Utility

[17:17]

• Jesse Kramer: Lifestyle creep is the main culprit for high earners feeling squeezed. Big purchases (vacation homes, boats, activities) often don’t deliver the expected happiness, especially when they're underutilized.

[19:44]

• Joe: Increased spending leads not just to financial clutter but also time clutter—maintenance of things (houses, boats, even board games) adds stress.

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Confusing Income with Wealth

[20:04]

• Paula Pant: Many conflate high income with being wealthy, especially early in their careers. The shock of “suddenly making real money” tempts overspending. But inflation and rising core costs (housing, food, transport) impact everyone, not just the “average earners.”

[21:19]

• OG: Taxes are a “hidden component” that eat into apparent high income. A $200k bonus may turn into $97k after taxes, leading to feeling cash-poor despite high earnings.

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Emotional Spending & Outsourcing Time

[24:14]

• Joe: Spending is often “emotional compensation” for exhaustion (e.g., DoorDash after a long week). Outsourcing chores becomes more attractive as income rises, but only makes sense if that time is truly re-invested in something meaningful.

[26:03]

• OG: The value of outsourcing only exists if you use that freed time for something worthwhile—earning more or meaningful rest.

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The “Invisible Hand” of Fixed Costs

[28:08]

• Paula Pant: Many high earners are “stuck” due to fixed costs like housing. “Golden handcuffs” of low mortgage rates combine with high prices and rates for new mortgages, reducing mobility and increasing frustration.
• Quote: “Generally speaking, when people feel a lack of mobility, regardless of their income, that necessarily feels very frustrating.” – Paula Pant [28:57]

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The Psychology of Financial Insecurity

[50:47]

• Paula Pant: “Paper assets” (investments) may be doing well, but free cash flow is what buys life. Disconnect exists between rising investment accounts and the reality of day-to-day spending power.

[52:12]

• OG: Financial complexity is stressful—not necessarily just from having many accounts, but from not having clarity about what you want, where your money is going, and what truly brings you satisfaction.
• Quote: “It’s not the financial accounts that is the complexity, it’s everything else that’s around it... not having clarity around what they actually want to do.” – OG [53:40]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Lifestyle inflation is insidious because it doesn’t feel like inflation; it feels like progress.” – OG quoting Financial Samurai [52:27]
• “Comparison is the thief of joy.” – Jesse Kramer [65:05]
• “If you feel like you’re stressed out, those might be flipped. You’re too worried about feeling instead of building that margin.” – Joe Saul-Sehy [65:41]
• “If you can articulate what your goal is, it becomes so much easier to accomplish it... If you just say something ambiguous like ‘I want to retire’ or ‘I want financial independence’ but don’t actually quantify what that looks like, you’re sailing into the unknown.” – OG [54:16]

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Actionable Takeaways

What Should High Earners Actually Do About It?

1. Track & Audit Your Spending

[56:11]

• Use a tracking tool or even credit card statements to classify and assess where your money is going.
• A “money audit” (like a calorie-counting diet) is helpful for short-term diagnosis.

2. Set Goals, Not Just Budgets

[54:51], [58:19]

• Begin with goals. Figure out what really matters to you, then align your spending.
• If you’re on track for your goals, your budget is “good enough”—any excess can be guilt-free spending.

3. Beware of Emotional & Status Spending

[29:59]

• Watch out for purchases made to “feel” richer or fit in socially (e.g. luxury cars, vacation homes, boats).
• Quote: “Sometimes purchases can tell you that somebody feels richer than they truly are.” – Joe Saul-Sehy [29:59]

4. Focus on Fixed Costs Over Small Luxuries

[62:44]

• Paula Pant: Identify and adjust major fixed costs (housing, vehicles) for real relief, instead of endless tiny cutbacks.

5. Understand the “Comparison Trap”

[65:05]

• Social media and status chasing can erode happiness and financial satisfaction, regardless of actual wealth.

6. Regular “Joy Audit”

[57:07]

• Like Marie Kondo, periodically ask if your expenses bring real satisfaction. Cut what doesn’t “spark joy.”

7. Tame Financial Complexity

[55:02], [52:12]

• Consolidate or clarify your accounts where possible. More important: clarify your goals and the purpose of your money.

8. Check the Story, Not Just the Math

[64:10]

• Many “felt broke” situations are emotional, not mathematical. Math can reveal you’re actually doing well.

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Timestamps of Key Moments

• [11:00] Why higher income doesn’t always solve feelings of brokenness
• [13:47] The role of keeping up with the Joneses and lifestyle escalation
• [19:44] Financial & time clutter from purchases
• [20:04] Income vs. wealth; impact of inflation on all income levels
• [24:14] Emotional compensation through spending & outsourcing
• [28:08] Effects of fixed costs and the “golden handcuffs” of homeownership
• [53:40] The real source of financial complexity and stress
• [56:11] Where to start if you make a lot but haven’t saved much
• [62:44] Top tip: Focus on fixed costs to relieve the squeeze
• [65:05] “Comparison is the thief of joy”—the trap of status competition

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Final Lightning Round: How Can Listeners Feel Less Squeezed?

[62:44] Paula Pant:

“Take a look at your fixed costs... Ask yourself if there's one major fixed cost that—even though it’s going to take months or maybe a year to move—you can reduce such that everything else becomes easier. That way you don’t have to frequently make tiny Doordash decisions.”

[63:09] OG:

“If you’re feeling squeezed, just decide not to feel that way anymore. This is an emotion more than anything... Do the math, and you might find you’re actually doing great.”

[65:05] Jesse Kramer:

“Comparison is the thief of joy... Find just one line-item you wish you hadn’t spent money on last month—cut it, and keep moving in that direction.”

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, playful, and peppered with good-natured ribbing, while remaining highly practical. The hosts and guests share personal anecdotes and encourage listeners with humor and a “don’t overcomplicate it” vibe. The advice is rooted in real-world financial experience, behavioral economics, and a recognition that emotions drive much of our money choices.

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In Closing

High income alone will never cure feeling broke. Meaningful goals, careful attention to lifestyle creep, and clarity about what really matters—not comparison—are the antidotes.

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For more, subscribe to The 201 newsletter for deeper dives: stackingbenjamins.com/201
Find Paula Pant at the Afford Anything podcast and Jesse Kramer at Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors.

Transcript

[A]

I came into this topic thinking that probably wasn't anything there, there.

[B]

I can now definitively say that there's something there. This is Stephen Diener, host of the Unidentified Alien Podcast. And that clip you just heard of Congressman Eric Burleson is one example of the work being done on this show. It's not too late to join in on the conversation. Dig into the investigation as we continue to unravel the biggest secret of our time. The Alien Secret. Download and subscribe to the Unidentified Alien Podcast. Just search UAP on your favorite podcasting platform.

[C]

I've got a four bedroom house in

[A]

a great community like my car.

[B]

It's new.

[A]

I even belong to the local golf club.

[B]

How do I do it?

[A]

I'm in debt up to my eyeballs.

[D]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and you know the drill. You'll feel rich once you get just a little bit more money. And yet, more than ever, high earners are reporting that they still feel broke. So how do you break free from feeling strapped all the time? We'll answer that on today's show. But that's not all. We have the regulars here, which means we might just see a margin call during my trivia question. And now, a guy who's always into leveraging a good time. It's Joe Sal Sei.

[B]

And what better time can you have than spending your Friday with us? Hey, everybody. Welcome back. We're super happy you found your way to the greatest money show on Earth. This is our Friday episode where we take something that I saw in the news and we decide to discuss it and hopefully send you on your weekend with some better, better financial livelihood than you had before you got to us. How come I can't make a sentence, Doug? Why can't I make a sentence?

[D]

Because we just said you're. You're willing to leverage fun. That means you're sucking the fun out of this to take it someplace else. And your brain is too focused on sucking the fun out of this.

[B]

Yes. And this is going to be fun, isn't it? We're gonna have a good time.

[D]

So much fun.

[B]

Yes. Talking about this because the fun meisters are here. Speaking of fun, the guy who for 14 years been looking at portfolios and with helping people hear the voice of doom.

[A]

14 years. Like 29 years, but, well, the past

[B]

14 years of podcasting, I mean.

[A]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Mr. OG's here. How are you, man?

[A]

Excited to be here. Thanks. For having me.

[D]

Joe, the Bill Belichick of personal finance. Happy to be here.

[B]

That's what we should have said.

[A]

I kind of have that vibe right now. I'll be honest. You caught me at that time. It's that time of the day.

[B]

Well, we're about to spice it up. Oh, gee. Because we're going to have a lot of fun. You know why? Because a woman who's outside of her the swimming pool in her building. We just saw somebody walk by in a towel and a bikini. Paula Pant is here.

[E]

Well, okay. My gym is also a co working space which is also the entrance to the outdoor pool. When you live in New York, everything becomes very multifunctional and multipurpose. So I'm in my gym, slash co working slash pool entrance, slash yoga studio,

[D]

otherwise known as a hallway.

[A]

And pool table. I see in the background.

[E]

Oh, yes. And pool table. Yes. So we've got double pools.

[B]

Yes. And by the way, the guy who's the pool shark on this podcast from the personal finance for Long term Investors show, Jesse Kramer's here. Are you pool shark Jesse?

[C]

I'm pretty bad at pool, but I kind of want to combine. So if OG is the Bill Belichick and where Paula is right now in the swimsuits. I think Bill Belichick is currently dating like a 25 year old. So I just want to ask like, oh, gee, kind of who's. I think her name's Jordan Hudson. So like who's, who's the Jordan Hudson to OG's Bill Belichick in this, in this weird convoluted situation that we find ourselves? Is it Doug? Is it Doug in the bikini?

[D]

I want to be in charge of all of his media.

[B]

I didn't know where we're going with any of that, so I'm gonna just quickly change the topic. So you ever meet somebody making great money who still acts like every trip to Costco requires a payment plan? Well, that's what we're gonna, that's what we're going to talk about today because the Wall Street Journal just featured a piece that I read over the weekend and here's the headline, guys, the stock market's never been so good when people have felt so bad. And just this general difference between the way people feel about their money and the, you know, the great success that we've had in the stock market. So people with a six figure salary still stress eating. You've got the Amazon boxes that sound familiar? Og? No idea. No idea where the money went. Retirement contra people making Retirement contributions on time. Right. But you still feel this little sense of panic. So things are going okay. Just doesn't really feel okay. We're going to help you with that on today's show. So can't wait to get this discussion started and dive into all that. But first, guess what, guys, we have a brand new sponsor for today's show. So we're going to surf and into today's discussion. Like what I did there.

[D]

Doug's getting paid.

[B]

Yes. Sponsored by Surf Shark. If you're like us, you're spending, of course, Decker. Some of our favorite stories on the show, those are about side hustles bringing in a little extra money. And I know you've seen the buzz, but let me give you the inside scoop on, I think what could be your next side hustle. Live shopping on whatnot that's exploding right now. You've seen so many people talking about it online. I've watched the shows firsthand. I've seen whatnot climb to the top of the app store and I've looked at what sellers are earning. Small, medium and multimillion dollar businesses are seeing some real growth. So if you're selling online or out of a storefront full time or as a side hustle, you already know the challenge. You're hoping for people to find your listing or you're waiting for them to walk in. Whatnot flips that on whatnot, you go live and sell directly to people in real time. They see what you've got, they ask questions and they buy. And better than that, they keep coming back. Whatnot's the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies, sellers are building real thriving businesses. Anyone can sell. Whether your business is big, small, or yet to exist, people selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. That's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. Download the whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search wh t n o t whatnot in the app store and start listing and selling your products and bring in bigger piles of Benjamin's. A lot of time online right now watching the financial markets bubble, you want to turn that stuff off. You also want to stop watching all those talking heads on CNBC and Fox Business. Turn that stuff up. But maybe even doing a bunch of that, maybe talking yourself into our Detroit Lions winning 11 games this fall, much better to focus on that. But while you're doing all that, your data is Basically out there for anyone to grab. And that's where surfshark comes in. Surfsharks, a VPN that encrypts everything you do online. So whether you're working on stacking your Benjamins at home at a coffee shop or scrolling your brokerage accounts on airport WI fi, your info stays private. Think of it like having an insurance policy before you step onto the Internet. You're protected. Here's one thing I really like. One account covers unlimited devices. So your phone, your laptop, your smart tv, everything's locked down. They also have a strict no logs policy. So even the surfshark people, they can't track what you're doing either. Plus features like clean web block ads, malware before they even hit your screen. So if you want to browse smarter, maybe even find better deals on travel or online marketplaces by switching up your virtual location, check it out. Go to surfshark.com stackingb and guess what you get when you do that.

[E]

Paula, what do you get?

[B]

Oh, I'll tell you. If you use code Stacking B at checkout, you'll get an extra four months of Surfshark VPN. That's surfshark.com stacking B. Code stackingbee. All right, we've got a couple more sponsors who help us keep on keeping on because Stacking Benjamin is always free and worth every penny. So we're going to hear from those sponsors who make it free. And then Jesse, Paula, og, Doug and I, we're going to talk about maybe helping you feel a bit better about where your money's at in this particular economy. Of course, Stacker, Some of our favorite stories on the show, those are about side hustles bringing in a little extra money. And I know you've seen the buzz, but let me give you the inside scoop on, I think what could be your next side hustle. Live shopping on whatnot that's exploding right now. You've seen so many people talking about online. I've watched the shows firsthand. I've seen whatnot climb to the top of the App store and I've looked at what sellers are earning. Small, medium and multimillion dollar. Businesses are seeing some real growth. So if you're selling online or out of a storefront full time or as a side hustle, you already know the challenge. You're hoping for people to find your listing or you're waiting for them to walk in. Whatnot flips that on whatnot, you go live and sell directly to people in real time. They see what you've got. They ask questions and they buy. And better than that, they keep coming back. Whatnot's the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies, sellers are building real thriving businesses anyone can sell. Whether your business is big, small, or yet to exist, people selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. That's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. Download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search wh a t n o t whatnot in the app store and start listing and selling your products. And bring in bigger piles of Benjamin's foreign. Guys. Let's surf into this issue. Why doesn't higher income feel safe? Shouldn't more money solve this problem? JESSE KRAMER it should.

[C]

It really should. There are probably different reasons. The most common reason I see simply comes down to, you know, there are so many, many things in this world we can spend money on. And there are probably more things today. I mean, I'm almost positive in the statement there are more things today that we can spend money on than ever before in history. We can get anything delivered to our house, like overnight. There are all these cool services out there in the world or fun things to do, places to see, places to travel, activities to participate in, things to get our kids involved in. And like, some of the stories that I've seen firsthand and like, talked to the people firsthand, it's simply lifestyle inflation. Now we're earning $100,000 more and that gets spent on a nicer golf course to be a member of a better summer camp, to send our kids to dining out at fancier restaurants more often. And from just zooming out to the furthest out we can zoom, it just comes down to making that active decision to spend less. I think there's probably someone on this panel right now who has an amazing motto of about exactly this topic and I'm interested to hear what she has to say.

[B]

Doug is it?

[C]

DOUG it is. It's spend more money on tartan wallpaper, neighbor.

[B]

DOUG Paula, I think Jesse's talking about you, but I want to take just one side of that equation and let's get rid of the quote, this economy. Because as you know, there's always something for us to worry about. Right?

[E]

Right.

[B]

But I also feel like just as you earn more money, people think more money solves the problem. I feel like more money often comes with more anxiety. True or false?

[E]

False. More money creates more optionality I do not see how earning more money could be a bad thing. When you have not a lot of money at your disposal, at a certain point you can't shrink down any further. Like rent can only go so low, the cheapest rice and beans from Costco.

[B]

But you don't think income and anxiety rise together like more income? Just makes me worried that, hey, now I'm away from this minimal lifestyle and it's all going to go away. That balloon's going to pop at any second and I got to go back.

[E]

I think that anxiety, if that worry translates to a higher savings rate, then that is a positive worry. And that's not the same as anxiety. If a person has income and they're worried about losing it, the obvious solution is save more, save more and invest more. Because that's the antidote to losing it.

[B]

Well, oh, gee, let's bring you into this discussion. I think there might be something else going on too, which is, you know, there's this phrase, wherever you go, there you are. And I think some people feel like, hey, if I make more money, all of a sudden I'm going to be happier. But you show up and you're like, maybe success, success should feel better than it does. Financial success should feel better than it does.

[A]

Well, I mean, I think, you know, both Jesse and Paul have already talked about this in terms of kind of increasing obligations as your life also expands. You have to be really cognizant of this because at the end of the day, it's very easy to, you know, have that, have that desire or, you know, and it's cliche to say, like keeping up the Joneses, but it's very easy to kind of fall into that trap a little bit. And it's the rich dad, poor dad type of concept or something where every time you get something else, you're like, okay, now that means I can finally do this other thing. And at some point in time you have to decide whether or not the next thing is worth all of the energy to do. Jesse, I think you said the fancier country club. It's like, is it worth it? What is the difference? It's already a private golf club. Is it worth the extra thousand bucks a month or is it worth the extra $100,000 sign up fee? The same thing with a car. If you're buying a $75,000 Yukon, that's cool. Is it worth the extra 50 to upgrade to the Mercedes? I'm not sure, but like, there's always something above it. You know, there's always Another thing, until you get to, like, I don't know, I guess Elon, probably the number one guy right now, there's always somebody that has more than you. And if your comparison is against other people, it's just a bad comparison because you'll never win that because there's always somebody else that's going to have, you know, just the next. The fancier house, the. The better car, the cooler, watch the kids go to a better school. There's always something. Some of those things are a good thing to do, a good thing to have, but at some point, you just gotta go, okay, enough is enough.

[B]

What do you mean some of those things are good?

[A]

It is like, pay for education. Paying for education. For example, if you're in a community that has a notoriously bad school system and now you have the wherewithal to send your kids to a better school, whether that's, you know, you can move into a better school district or you can send your kids to a private school and there's better attention or harder classes or whatever the case may be. However, you would evaluate that there's a good ROI on that, generally speaking. But once you have a little bit of escape velocity in that spot, like, is it better to go to the next best school? Like, does that curve flatten out in terms of utility? I think it does after a while, you know, like going from Costco rice and beans to name brand rice and beans, big improvement. But it's still rice and beans, you know, like, now you got to go to, like, ribeye. But, like, once you get to ribeye, you're like, okay, I got ribeye. Is it that much better to have wagyu ribeye? I mean, it's better, but is it that much? Is it 10x better? I don't think so.

[B]

It's funny talking to a couple chefs that I know, they're like, most people have no idea the difference. I could sell them whatever I could. I could call it wagyu. And most people be like, yeah, you

[A]

can still cook it. Like, I mean, you could still grill the hell out of it and make it well done, and it's still going to suck. There it is as bad as the Costco version.

[B]

Doug.

[D]

I just wondered if his logic also translates to a set of irons and maybe a Rescue 4 wood.

[A]

Well, nobody has Rescue 4 woods. That would be a complete, utter waste of energy and money. But one might be okay with a seven wood, for example, and maybe a five wood to replace a five iron. Absolutely. A good use of excess capital for sure.

[B]

Asking for not even what they're talking about, Jesse. So we'll move on.

[A]

You wouldn't know. It's very obvious.

[B]

Absolutely. Jesse, you mentioned lifestyle creep. How easy is it? And, and how much of a culprit is lifestyle creep when it comes to feeling this pinch when you're making well over six figures?

[C]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, you could always point the figure at, of course, inflation. And then just some of these, like, yes, the necessities of life are more expensive than they ever have been for, like, no doubt about it. But once we get into some of the numbers that we've been talking about here on this episode, like some of those income numbers, the, the only logical explanation is lifestyle creep. And a little anecdote that I recently went through with someone was, you know, this is a family. So here we are in upstate New York, Rochester, New York. We're near the Finger Lakes. Beautiful countryside, beautiful water, you know, lots of nice houses on the water. And there are plenty of people in upstate New York who say, like, oh, we love to go away to a little cottage on the Finger Lakes. Now there comes a point where some people might say, like, we're going to buy one of those cottages, like, right, that's going to become our place. And one of my thoughts is that might be a really logical thing to do if you plan on spending every extra weekend, every day off, especially during, like the summer season. If that's your go to place, if that's like your number one leisure activity, I bet your ROI on buying that cottage might be really good. But the problem is that some of these people, once they start earning the kind of money that we're earning, they're like, well, we spread ourselves too thin across too many activities. We buy the cottage in the Finger Lakes, we're only there four weekends a year, and it ends up being this huge part of their balance sheet or this huge expense on their cash flow, and they're really not getting that much utility out of it to borrow one of OG's terms. And that's just a lifestyle creep issue. So the problem that I see most often is people think that, oh, people like us, right, we, we own a lake house, we travel all over the world, we do all these, you know, relatively fancy things and they end up doing too many of those different fancy things such that their time is just spread way too thin. And at the end of the day, they look at themselves and they're like, we barely have any money. We're spending it all. And I just I don't see the ROI that they're really getting on that. So it is a lifestyle creep issue.

[B]

Is it wild how buying more things not only clutters your budget, the time that you devote to whatever this thing is that you buy, whether it's a house or a boat or heck, even a board game, like the, just the, the time that comes with it, the time commitment ends up making more stress in your life.

[C]

Definitely.

[B]

Obviously, a lot of this anxiety starts and people don't know where it comes from. Part of it might have been that you had lifestyle creep in your life. But how many of us, especially early on, do you think confuse income with wealth? I get this higher income, so I'm making well over six figures. That must mean that I'm rich, right?

[E]

I think there are, there are a couple of things going on, and I actually disagree that it's all lifestyle creep. Partially, yes. There is the conflation of income with wealth, particularly when you're early in your career. Let's say you've. You've just come out of college or grad school, you're making real money for the first time in your life because you have gone from making nothing as a student to making a lot straight out of school. You know, for many people that, that can feel. You suddenly feel rich because the, you haven't normalized to it yet. So, I mean, sure, that's part of it. But I also do want to raise the point that over the last five years, costs have, have doubled. I mean, you look at the cost of gas, you look at the cost of groceries, you look at just the cost of housing, mortgage interest rates, like, you look at just basic, like housing, food, transportation. Those are the three biggest spending categories. And a lot of those costs have gone up significantly in the last five years with, you know, a level of inflation that we're not used to seeing. And I think that, that no matter how much you earn, it affects you.

[B]

It is interesting. Oh, gee. I mean, on one side we got fixed costs, but. But when we look at where the money disappears, how much of this is. Is convenience spending? That is a culprit.

[A]

I mean, not only is there probably some. Jesse's advocation here is it's all discretionary lifestyle creep. There's the fixed cost component of it. I'd say there's another hidden component of this, which is taxes. When you think of like this big giant income or I got a bonus, you know, such and such a thing happened, and I've got this big $200,000 bonus or whatever I should finally be making, it's like, well, yeah, dude, but you're going to owe 40% of that back, at least in taxes. And God forbid you live in a state that actually charges it too, or a city that charges on top of the state. And it very easily could be well over half. You know, in your mind you're like, I got 200 grand, let's say to spend, but after it hits my bank account, I've got 97. And maybe if your income is low and you live on your bonus because you know that's how you're paid now, you're really not even getting anything extra in your life. It's just like you're filling your savings account back up to drain it back down to zero over the next 12 months. And so I can see how this can feel as like a very, like I'm spinning my wheels a lot. I would offer the other side of this too, which is it doesn't take a lot over a long period of time to stay ahead. You know, you don't have to like be saving 70% of your income to fund your retirement. If you start relatively at a good age, you know, a little bit of money goes a long way. I know you like to save all the what fors on the back end, Joe, but it's like, probably a lot of this is self inflicted. I can use myself as an example. I don't feel any materially different than I did 10 years ago when our income was 10% of what it is today or 20% of what it is today. I just have different things to deal with now. You know what I mean? Like, we're able to give stuff away, which is cool. And we're able to spend more on people that we care about, which is cool. And yeah, we save a little bit more money. And yeah, we spend money like drunken sailors on occasion. See upcoming Disney trip planned like 10 days in advance. You know, that's cheap when you go, hey, screw it, let's go to Disney in 10 days. Ten days, you know, with five people. So that's a blessing. But it's also, you know, you got to be able to rein it in and recognize that like Jesse said, there's. There's a fair, fairly decent amount of excess BS that I think we all justify to ourselves is, is in, you know, I gotta have this, I gotta keep it.

[B]

Well, and this is actually a question that I have because Jesse, when you were talking about people that only spend four weeks a year out at the Finger Lakes now that they're making more money. They feel like, okay, I can afford this thing. And yet time wise, the company expects more of them, their career demands more of them. They spend more time doing it. Paula, you and I have joked before that entrepreneurs are people that will work 80 hours for themselves to avoid working 40 hours for somebody else, right?

[E]

Yep, absolutely.

[B]

How much of this spending, Jesse, do you think is emotional compensation? I'm exhausted. So because I'm exhausted, I'm getting doordash or I'm going out to dinner because you know what, I just don't feel like making dinner or a little bit of, you know what, I've been working my ass off. Damn it, I deserve this.

[C]

Right? You, you, you just said there, Joe, like emotional compensation, which I could certainly see that. And I also think on the topic of time, like, some of it definitely is time compensation. Don't get me wrong, like, I still mow my own lawn. I'm not sure I should actually. Right. Like, if it takes me 75 minutes to mow my own lawn, especially this time of year where I'm doing it more than once a week, it's like, could I take that 75 minutes a week and actually use it in a better way, whether it's spending time with family or working to earn the money. And like, I think at some point as people's incomes increase, they start doing a lot more of that calculus where they outsource their lawn care. Maybe they have someone to come in and help cleaning with their house or their living space or something like that. And there are all these like little incidentals where at one point in my life I never would have outsourced any of that stuff. And now all of a sudden I'm looking at my quote unquote income per hour, if I want to think about it that way. And it's like, why am I still folding my own clothes? Right. I know some people who don't do their own laundry, they outsource it all. That, of course, leads to a more expensive lifestyle. So some of it is that. But I would just wager the average person in this predicament might not be thinking of it that way the way a financial planner or an accountant or almost an engineer would, which is like, what is my hourly income? What does it cost me to do my laundry? Therefore I will outsource. But I would wager, yeah, the doordash example is another really good one, Joe, which is like, yeah, you know, I'm busy. I just put in an 80 hour week. I'm going to spend 30 bucks on a burrito. I bet you that happens more often.

[A]

Jesse, the only way that that calculus works is if you actually use the time to go do the other thing. If you say, like, you know, and I think that's what you were saying before, but if you say, well, well, you know, my. My hourly wage is $200 an hour. If it takes me three hours a week to mow my grass and I pay somebody $100 to do it, I saved five. You're like, that's making 500 bucks. Yeah. If you go make $600. If you don't, you just spent $100 to, like, sit on the couch. Which, by the way, also could be a good investment, you know, in your R and R. Like, that's. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that, but there's two sides.

[B]

Say that OG Because I was thinking, you know, mowing the lawn for me is just a great time. Strap on some. Some headphones, either listen to some music

[A]

or

[B]

thought that different way.

[A]

Paul. Paul picked it up.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the same thought.

[A]

All I can think about is that Allstate commercial. I see Joe mowing the grass, like, with his headphones on, like, mowing the grass, and, like, rocks are shooting everywhere. And he's like, sorry, Robert, $5 doesn't buy my undivided attention. You know, he's like, shooting rocks against his house and out into the street as cars blow up.

[B]

You call me mayhem? Is that what you're calling me is Mayhem?

[A]

That's just a really good part. I just want to learn more about what you're strapping on to mow the grass in Texarkana.

[E]

I enjoyed the earlier conversation between OG And Doug about their wood.

[B]

Just.

[E]

Oh, man, the seven wood and the five wood.

[B]

And we are officially off the rails now.

[A]

For the record, mine is the seven. His is the five.

[B]

I want.

[E]

How would you know that?

[A]

Sword fighting, obviously.

[B]

Okay. I just want to get back. Get this back. You know what's funny, Paula, is that you were talking about the cost of groceries, the cost of living, and. And, you know, we spent a fair amount of time so far today talking about discretionary expenses. Right. And controlling those and lifestyle. Creep. But you were talking about fixed expenses. Like, how much of this just says maybe we bought too much house.

[E]

Right? Yeah. And you see a lot of people with that predicament right now because they've got the golden handcuff situation of, you know, they've locked in a mortgage interest rate that's 3% their house is no longer adequate for their needs. But in order to move to a different house, or, or maybe they have a better job opportunity elsewhere, or they need to handle elderly care responsibilities elsewhere. But to move to a different home, even if they downsized, it would be just as expensive because of the home price, the increase in home prices, as well as the new mortgage interest rates. And, and so you. You kind of see that level of stuckness. And I think part of the frustration that people feel right now is lack of mobility. And generally speaking, when people feel a lack of mobility, then regardless of what their income is, that necessarily feels very frustrating. I think that's why there's one of the reasons why there's such a delta between how the stock market is doing and how people are feeling.

[B]

Well, and I think that's where real wealth is, right? Is that real wealth is not the amount you make. It's that margin between the two. When you feel like you've got some margin that you can take the family to Disney 10 days before, whatever it might be, then you feel this a little bit more sense of safety. By the way, I remember a discussion on another channel quite a while ago, somebody talking about two people with a Lamborghini and one person has a Lamborghini and it is maybe 1 1000th of their wealth, right? It's just a thing. It's just a little car. Somebody else spending nearly all the money they have to buy the Lamborghini. Sometimes purchases can tell you that somebody feels richer than they truly are. I want to walk through just very quick, rapid fire before we go to our break. Oh, gee. What's a purchase you'll see somebody have where it's clear the person maybe feels richer than they. Than they maybe are?

[A]

Airplane. Oh, too soon. What's a purchase that somebody makes that makes. Makes them feel. What was your question? Say your question again. So I get it right?

[B]

When you see somebody who, you know, this. This might be a little judgy, but somebody who y. Who very well might feel richer than they are.

[A]

Like, I'm thinking over their skis. I mean, certainly any sort of what I would consider ostentatious vehicle purchase probably is up there. I have a hard time arguing with real estate purchases despite being a little over their skis. Maybe because it's just kind of transfer money from one side of the balance sheet to the other. You know, in my opinion, notwithstanding the payment and upkeep and that sort of deal. I mean, honestly, don't we all kind of go through that very. I Mean, maybe not everybody, but aren't there periods of time where you're like a little stretched just a skosh thin and then you're like, oh, man, I don't know. I mean, I distinctly remember having this conversation with my grandfather when he was still alive about his house purchase and that sort of thing. And he has this great story where he said, we built this house, we got the money from the bank to do it, and the house was done. Now we gotta sign the paperwork. And I said, how did you feel? And I don't remember what he said. The payment was $29 a month or something. You know, like whatever the mortgage was, it was some pocket change to everybody here. And I said, how'd you feel about it? He said, well, I was pretty convinced that we were gonna be looking for a new place to rent a month from now.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

He's like, I knew I could make this month's payment. I wasn't sure about making next month's payment.

[B]

Wow, that's tight.

[A]

Well, I mean, but I felt that way when we bought our first house. We were like, you know, you did all the math. And despite it maybe not being exactly perfect, it was like, it's a little snug, but I think we can pull it off. I mean, when we bought this house, it felt the same way, you know, every single time you do something that stretches your confidence, you know, I mean, the bike race that I'm doing, like. Like, I don't think I'm gonna do this. I'm six weeks away. I'm like, I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to pull this off. But then last weekend I sat and did a five and a half hour bike ride. It's like, okay, well that's not nothing. I gotta do that twice. I gotta do 11 hours. But at least I demonstrated I could do five and you know what I mean? So, like, anytime you do something, there's going to be a little fear factor moment, whether it's money or anything. So I don't know that it's inherently bad to have that feeling, I guess. I don't know. For me, it's a motivation piece. Sometimes long since in bounds, right? It was like bought a lake house and I really can't make max payment. Like, that's stupid. But if it's a.

[B]

Well, you and I both know a guy, we first started in financial planning, who bought a Porsche on payments specifically so that he would have to work really hard, which is ridiculous.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, no, it was a different Car. But I was thinking of a different person who also did the same thing, but I was thinking of a different car.

[B]

Just not a.

[A]

But I know you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Not a great reason, but that was a sales.

[A]

That was a sales culture thing. At Ameriprise. I was in that meeting when the regional vice president went, go buy something you can't afford on payments because it will force you to be a better salesperson by the end of the month because you can't have any bad marks on your credit. You get fired. So you want to sell $1,000 of mutual fund commissions, have a thousand dollars car payment due at the end of the month. That'll motivate you.

[B]

That's so crazy, it's dumb. So dumb.

[A]

It's ridiculously nuts. But it's a sales culture.

[B]

So absolutely dumb. Jesse Kramer, my first question for you is, did I say that I wanted these rapid fire out loud or did I say that in my head?

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

And OG just ignored it.

[C]

Well, rapid is a relative term. I mean, you know, in terms of the full time expanse.

[A]

Human time.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

I was pretty quick.

[C]

OG's answer was just a flash in a pan.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with the luxury car, but again, sometimes a luxury car isn't that big a deal. It's a luxury car with bald tires where you can tell the person can barely afford it. Or I actually know somebody who is really responsible with money, has a beautiful luxury car, the check engine lights always on, and hasn't had an oil change in forever because they can't afford it. Like that's over their skis. Jesse got another one.

[C]

Well, I grew up pretty rural. And again in your intro, Joe, you did admit that some of our answers might be a little bit judgy here.

[B]

Okay, is this somebody with a really nice tractor?

[C]

Close. But I just remember sometimes you would see it's. It's almost like this ratio. So you add up someone's cars and their boats and then you compare it to their house. And there's sometimes where you're like, hey, we. I kind of know what's going on in your financial situation loosely. And that's $120,000 boat. Like that's might be the most valuable single asset you own. And the saying with boat ownership is like two, you know this one, the two happiest days in a boat owner's life. The day they buy, the day they sell. So that's one that always stuck out to me, which is like, sure, if you've got, if you've already Got more money. The, the 1 1,000th fraction that you used earlier, Joe. Like if Your boat is 1/1,000th of your balance sheet, good for you. But if your boat is, you know, 25% of your balance sheet, you might,

[B]

if your depreciating assets outweigh your appreciating assets.

[C]

Correct, correct.

[B]

Yeah. It might be too far. Paula, you got one?

[E]

Yeah, I. Well in, in New York you often see people who, they live in apartments that are nicer than what they can really swing. Yeah. It comes down to housing.

[B]

You mean they're like 600 square feet instead of the 400 square feet?

[E]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Or you know, what are you Mr.

[E]

Wealthy place with a doorman, an elevator building instead of a walk up. A place with an in unit washer, dryer rather than, you know, just going to the laundromat, that sort of a thing.

[B]

Right. A place that doesn't have like a pool table in the background with the snack bar and the pool and everything else in one place. All right, when we come back we are going to dive into what do we do about it? What are the things that we do to actually maybe if you're feeling very tight, how do we relieve some of that? We're going to have that in a moment. But on our Friday show we pause halfway through to dive into our year long trivia competition. Doug, Mr. OG is very close to record breaking territory. But after his margin call last week might be a little further away.

[D]

Right, right. Last week was a pretty exciting week and a number levels. But our current champion, our current reigning champion. Is this correct? Jesse? He, he called a margin call and made things just a skosh less comfortable for OG right now as the scores sit.

[A]

I called the margin call.

[C]

I think I, I defended myself from OG's.

[A]

Just defended the margin call.

[C]

Blatant attack.

[D]

Gotcha.

[B]

That is correct.

[D]

That's what it was.

[A]

That's a blatantly telegraphed attack. No thanks to our esteemed announcer. But carry on. Who's remembering the facts? I don't know, just whatever.

[D]

Interesting. I don't remember it quite that clearly.

[A]

You wouldn't anyway.

[D]

Score is eight to five to three. That's eight for og, five to Jesse and three for Paula.

[B]

And as you just heard, my favorite part of the show, which is new this year, is the margin call. Because what's a competition between longtime friends without a little dagger in your back? Here is the way this works. Each of our good looking contestants gets one margin call per quarter. Much like a real margin call where your broker calls you. And they're like, hey, guess what? You don't have any money. Well, it takes you by surprise. So one contestant is going to yell margin call. But only if they have a little margin of their own to gamble. They have to have at least a point to gamble. Because here is the gamble. The person who gets called must get the point right or they lose a point. And that's the bad news for the margin caller. If they do successfully answer the question, the person who tried to lay the trap, well, they get trapped and lose a point. So can get pretty ugly if you don't call the margin call on the right person at the right time. So a little fun, a little messiness, a little convolution to our show. But that's what makes our Friday trivia fun. You know what makes it the most fun though? Doug has a question for us every week. What's the question, Doug?

[D]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Dug, and way back in 1977, the little computer that could the Apple II was released. And I have it on good authority that just 15 minutes later, the first hacker was furiously working to steal users identities. But today, no pessimism allowed. No way. It's my job to counter this everything is bad, even for the people who make a lot of money stuff. I get that we're here on YouTube helping you through it all, but let's grab you a little sunshine. Co founder Steve Wnak, or as we called him at our weekly pickup hoops game, the was was just in the news after speaking at Grand Valley State University where he told graduating Lakers that they already possessed AI. That's actual intelligence. Wozniak intelligence is not the world's first trillionaire for one reason. He sold much of his Apple stock back in the early days. Does he regret it? Believe it or not, he doesn't. Here's today's question. What percentage of the company did Wniak originally own as a co founder? I'll be back right after I find out just how much of my El Camino I own. I mean, you know, split between me and the bank.

[B]

All right, OG we've got Steve Wozniak as a founder of Apple. What percentage of the company did he own back at the beginning? Wozniak's from your hometown, isn't he?

[A]

It's so funny that you knew that. As a matter of fact, not only is he from our hometown, but he was. You guys were talking about mowing grass. I actually mowed his grass when he was my neighbor. He always bragged all the time about this stupid computer company, and nobody really bought any of their computers anyway. So I think at the time he was probably pretty happy that he sold out of his position. But he didn't sell out without making a fairly decent amount of money. So that's good. Compared to the other guy that was a founder, he was a total dumb. A dollar sign. Dollar sign, as you know, because he sold out, like, you know, kind of right away. So this is not fair to these other guys because I'm dragging this out hoping somebody will margin call me, because this guy lived next door to me. I know the exact number, and it's really unfair. But he is from my hometown. I knew him personally. He bragged about it all the time. He actually had a license plate on his car that said 45. And everybody thought, what does that mean? It's the percentage of Apple that he originally owned. So he owned 45% originally.

[B]

45%. Jesse Kramer, what are you going to do with that number?

[C]

I mean, it is unfair. OG literally strapped on himself to a mower in Steve Wozniak's long, tall shrubbery, bushes, grass, etc. It is an unfair advantage. I have no idea. I have no idea. You're like, is it. Was it jobs in Wozniak? 50.

[B]

50.

[C]

Were there other people involved who you've never heard of? I am going to go with the second one. I'm going to say there was one person involved who we don't know, and I'm going to say they were a third. A third. A third. So I'm going to say on day one, it was 33.3 repeating.

[B]

All right, well, we've got 45 and 33 and a third. Paula, pant.

[E]

Oh. Oh, that's tough. Do I. Do I shoot for the middle or do I take the under? Because I don't think it would be over because I have to assume that they had some outside investors and the outside investors would have had some. Some type of an ownership interest.

[C]

If Paula doesn't think it was 50 50, then I'm toast. Then I'm toast.

[E]

I mean, my. Okay, so my two options really are either to take 44 or to take 33.2 or 46. I don't think it could be. I think. I think 45. You've anchored at the highest. It could be. I'm gonna go with 33.2.

[B]

33.2, which, Jesse means you might be half toast.

[A]

So I think so,

[B]

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[E]

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[B]

All right, OG, you kick this off at 45%. You feeling pretty confident?

[A]

Very much so, yeah. Yeah. This one's. This one's in the bag, unfortunately.

[B]

He sounds pretty confident. Jesse, what do you think?

[A]

He's a neighbor. Had the license plate?

[C]

I have no idea. It's a black box to me. Which probably means I have a 33.33% chance of winning.

[B]

You do. And it could have been thirds. And he's been confident before. Paula Pant. So could be your day.

[E]

You never know. I mean, a broken clock is right twice.

[B]

Yours is broken a fair amount more than that.

[E]

Yeah. I mean if, because if this were truly random, I would be winning about one third of the time. But my, my losing streak is statistically implausible. And yet, and yet here we are.

[B]

Yet it continues, right? Well, maybe not any longer. Maybe in about two minutes you're going to have a point in your favor. But only Doug knows. Doug, who's taking on the point?

[D]

Hey there, stackers. I'm El Camino fan and guy who the bank said is only a short 12 years from owning that car outright. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Today we celebrate the creation of the Apple II computer which was born on today's date back in 1977. The company originally was founded by three people, the Woz, Steve Jobs, and a guy many forget, Ronald Wayne. Wayne was brought in as an older, experienced administrator who knew how to create and read legal documentation and also how to handle the partnership agreement. In a case of clearly underpricing himself, Wayne designed Apple's very first logo and famously sold his equity stake in the company for just $800 12 days after the company was founded. But how much equity did Wozniak own? Well, if jobs owned 45 and Wayne owned 40 10, that means the was owned 11.8% more than what Paula guessed, 11.67 more than what Jesse guessed, and 0% more or less than what OG guessed because finally he was telling the truth. He knew this one. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Might not have happened in Bay City, Michigan. However, OG Take it home. The. You got your point right back after last week. Good work. And how about that Paula? Selling it. There's an oops. Selling. And. And you thought your losing streak was bad. Imagine being the guy that sold his shares.

[E]

10 of the company shares for 800. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Well, OG back on track. And we're still not halfway through the year, so we will see if his march continues or if Jesse or Paula can margin call. I'm surprised neither one of them did today, even right at the beginning.

[E]

So I, I don't want to expose myself to that level of risk.

[B]

Let's move into the second half of our discussion. Paula, we were talking about this just before the break. That part of this, you know, might be a little bit psychological, right? This feeling of being broke. We talked A little bit about comparison culture. I also feel like, oh gee, had something though, in this idea of never feeling caught up. Like it's so easy today to compare ourselves to other people, that maybe it's not the economy as much as it might be. Our addiction to social media, I don't know.

[E]

I think social media is an easy scapegoat, but I think that it's beyond that. You know, right now we have a situation in which expenses associated with daily living have gone up. Housing, transportation, food, those have increased. And for people who own assets, our paper assets, stocks, equity in real estate, those paper assets are also doing well. But paper assets don't impact free cash flow. Right. There's a difference between how good your net worth is performing, how well your portfolio is doing, and your actual day to day free cash flow. And so I think that there's, you know, part of the disconnect is you might be doing really well on paper, but the amount of life that your income can provide is getting tighter and tighter.

[B]

Oh gee, there are some expenses we could control, but you know, the ones Paul is talking about, those are locked in. If we're just going to live, we have to go to the grocery store. So psychologically, how do we make this easier on ourself? I'm thinking that in some ways financial complexity creates stress and this might be a good time for people to get rid of some of that financial complexity in their life. Like I'm thinking, you know, how many people do you know that when they come to you for the first time, they've just got way too many accounts. They've just got accounts all over the place.

[A]

I just read a line. I'll get around to answering your question in a second, Joe, but I just read a line in an article that I was perusing from financial samurai, about 10 million is not enough to retire on.

[B]

Sam would never write a headline like that.

[A]

Well, his take was, yeah, it is. It's frigging plenty. Stop being an idiot. Yeah, yeah, that's what he was getting to. But he said, and I'm just going to quote it so I don't screw it up. Lifestyle inflation is insidious because it doesn't feel like inflation, it feels like progress. I thought that was a pretty cool way to think about this, you know, just, just kind of picking back up on the thing that you can control part of it. So circling back to your answer your question, Joe, about complexity, I think complexity shows up in a lot of different ways. I don't think having a bunch of Accounts is complex unless, you know, they're unnecessary. I think it's very reasonable for a two person household to each have Roth IRAs and to each have IRAs and to each have workplace accounts and maybe have a brokerage account or each have a brokerage account depending on their net worth and estate planning stuff. And then you add to that, you know, kids accounts, whether it's 529 or, or education IRAs or kid Roth IRAs. It's you know, and then layering in some bank accounts and high yield savings accounts and credit cards and you know, I think there's an opportunity to clean those things up for sure. Especially if you're approaching financial independence. That makes sense. But if that's your reason for like feeling overwhelm is because you can't, you know, get Google Docs to make a spreadsheet that looks comfortable for you. I think there's more to it than just that. It's not the financial accounts that is the complexity, it's everything else that's around it that's the complexity. It's the fact that you have the lake house that you never go to, or the parents that you're supporting and you can't really put a finger on how much that costs or the 33 year old kid that's still living in your basement. Looking at us, it's hard to quantify what is that doing to our life in terms of financial stress and not stress, literally budget stress, but like just the complexity. Like you said, the biggest thing that I see is just not having clarity around what they actually want to do. If you can articulate what your goal is, it becomes so much easier to accomplish it because now you've put your mind to something that is got a start and an end to it. If you just say something ambiguous like I want to retire or I want financial independence, but don't actually quantify what that looks like. You're sailing into the unknown. You don't have any way to know whether you're getting close or not.

[B]

It's funny, Jesse, I wrote that one down myself. Like too many nebulous goals. I wrote down too many nebulous goals. Too many accounts, too many subscriptions. We don't need five different budgeting apps. We need fewer moving parts.

[C]

It certainly helps. I mean, I know some stories where people feel overwhelmed by complexity in that way. But if we're talking about the concerns of the high earner today, I don't know, in my experience that's a little bit, it's not quite Hitting it on the nose. Because like OG said, I think most of the conversations I've had before, people are reasonably comfortable. People are reasonably comfortable when they have lots of accounts like og what you just listed out, like what a family might have, 15 or 20 accounts between all the different types of investment accounts and bank accounts. And I think as long as someone can see those accounts on one piece of paper, they're like, okay, like, I get it, it's all right there. I think it's a lot more disconcerting when someone's like, hey, our tax return says our top line income was $600,000 last year. And yet I really don't feel like I saved that much money. And I can't put my finger on why. Like, where did it all go? That to me is that kind of uncertainty complexity that really drives the kind of concerns we're talking about today.

[B]

Well, if we're starting to dig into that, Paul, I make $600,000. I don't know why I didn't save more money. Where do I look first?

[E]

The first thing you do, if that's the case, is track all of your spending, you know, so use some type of a program. There's a lot of different software options that do it, but use some sort of a program that tracks and you can do it retroactively as well by looking at old credit card statements. Start classifying things. You know, budgeting is often the calorie counting of personal finance. And I often talk about the anti budget because calorie counting is not sustainable in the long term. But as a short term maneuver, in order to get an assessment of, here's what's currently going on, let's take stock, you know, let's assess. It can be very, very effective for targeted short term assessment. So that's where I would begin.

[B]

We talked a lot about, you know, having stuff and actually enjoying it. OG is having some type of like a Marie Kondo joy audit in order. Like, is this really lighting me up? Does it spark joy as Marie Kondo says it does? I keep it. It doesn't. I let it go.

[A]

I mean, there's so much to that. It depends on the moment, right? I can see there's different seasons for me where spending money in different areas has better personal utility like Joy than other areas, you know, and I think that's true for everybody. I mean, I'll give you an example. Joe, for you is kind of a silly one. You're probably not going to be doing a lot of campfire sitting around, you know, with your solo stove in July in Texarkana, that's just not the season for that. You don't have a line item in your budget for wood delivery because it would be stupid, and that would be a bad use of money. But if it's 38 degrees at night in December, there's probably not enough wood in the universe to. Why Paul is laughing, not me.

[B]

Why does everything happen?

[A]

There's not enough wood in the universe to satisfy you, Joe.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

But you get what I'm saying?

[B]

Well, but if our goal, then og. So let's give you a little pushback then, though. So if I. If my goal here is to build some margin, right? If my goal is to build margin, and I'm like, okay, well, I'm not going to get rid of the solo stove to get rid of margin. What do I get rid of? Where do I begin that journey?

[A]

It's so personal. I don't have a dog in the hunt here. I think you have to have a great understanding of what you're actually doing. Using Jesse's example of, like, I make 600 grand, I don't know if I saved enough, I would flip that around the other way and say, like, are you sure you didn't save enough? You might have, like, if you're on track for your goals, and this is where, like, having the goal thing identified as super important, if you're on track and on track means I'm saving a hundred thousand dollars a year and you save 100 grand, then you saved enough. Good for you. You got to go spend $300,000 on whatever the hell you wanted to spend on it. And it's not my job or any of our jobs to say, well, that's stupid. You should save 150. On the other hand, if your goals are, you need to save 150 and you're only saving 100, then I think it is our job to point, you know, put the mirror up and go, hey, man, you said that you wanted to do this stuff that's going to cost you 150 a year to save, you're only saving 100. Like, what's. What are we doing? Are we changing the goal? Are we going to try to make more money? You know, are we cutting some stuff? And when you look at the stuff of what you spend your money on, I think it's fair to. To analyze every single thing as a potential area for opportunity. Just because you have the 2% mortgage and you go, I'm landlocked. I can't do anything but you've got a million and a half dollars of equity in your house and you could move and have a paid for house somewhere else that counts. That is truly an opportunity that you have. Now, it may be a bad one because you go, well, I'm going to move from the area where the money is to an area where there's not. You got to evaluate that. I think we very quickly jump to lifestyle or our personal opinions of where people spend money and say, well, that's stupid, you should never have a car payment. Or that's stupid, you should never have a country club membership. Or that's stupid, you should never go out to eat. But you know what's dumb for me to look at is normal for somebody else. Like, well, but you get this on your own sense.

[B]

The issue is, is if I feel tight, right? I mean, that's the whole basis.

[A]

Well, then you owe it to yourself to evaluate yourself in the confines of yourself and go, like, do I really care about this stuff? And yeah, maybe you have too many.

[B]

So then it is spark joy. Then it is spark joy.

[A]

I mean, sure, yes.

[B]

I just want to hear you say spark joy. That's all I was looking for.

[A]

I want to go back to talking about wood. Woods can't get there.

[B]

Yeah, spark wood.

[A]

Just like. I just, I just like Paula giggling like a schoolgirl. That sparks joy for me.

[B]

Jesse, it's interesting. So the case that Og is building is start with some goals, make sure they're what you really want, and the budget forms itself. You like that?

[C]

I do. I really like it. And I concur with one thing. Well, I concur with a lot of what OG just said, but one thing in particular is like, you know, I'm curious if you feel the same way, Og. If someone comes to you and they're like, hey, Og, I, we really think we want this boat. What do you think about that? Going back to boats? Sometimes when I get that question, I'm like, it's not my job to tell you whether you are going to enjoy owning a boat or not. Because now all of a sudden I'm layering on my predisposition, which listeners. And you guys already know I'm anti boat. So you guys already know I'm anti boat.

[A]

Do not ask Jesse for a boat. If you're a client of Jesse's, he's gonna shoot your boat idea down. Just do the boat.

[C]

If you want me to motorboat you, you know what my answer's gonna be.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[C]

Nope.

[D]

Sorry.

[C]

Where was I? No motorboats would I was talking about. My job is to let you know here are the options, like here are the goals you laid out to me. If you choose to buy this boat, here's how it might affect your long term goals. Like I can help you understand the opportunity costs and then you can make a more informed decision. So I think what OG Some of what he's getting at right here is like you know yourself and you know a little bit of this subjective swirl that's going around in your head about the trade offs and the opportunity costs and what do you really enjoy, what do you not enjoy at all? And sure, like we can help you with some of the numbers but, but we can't really help you figure out all the subjective stuff or at least not that easily. It kind of turns into some financial therapy which I'm okay at, but I'm no expert. So the point is that yeah, it, it has to be a bit of a two way street where you know your own brain the best and it might take some work to, to try to figure out what's really going to make you happiest spending money on in, in the long run.

[B]

Let's end this on a high note. Paula. What's one thing stackers can do this week to stop feeling so squeezed?

[E]

Take a look at your fixed costs. Those are the real needle moving costs. And ask yourself if there is one major fixed cost that even though it's going to take months or maybe a year to move, is there one major fixed cost that you can reduce such that everything else becomes easier. That way you don't have to like frequently make doordash decisions. You can make one big decision and be done.

[A]

OG well, I kind of want to say something a little snarky, but I don't think it'll, I don't, I don't, I don't think you'll like it. Joe. I mean, if you're feeling squeezed, just decide not to feel that way anymore. This is an emotion more than anything. And if you literally are spending more money than you make, then that's a problem. But if you're feeling like you're spending more money than you make, we'll define whether or not you really are. And if you're not, then you can just go to work to figure that out. Whether it's fixed expenses or increasing your income or saving, pulling back your savings to keep money in your checking account if that makes you feel more comfortable. But I hate the word feeling because it's, oh gee, have no feeling. OG Just Do

[B]

I do like that though? You know why I like it? I like it because the number of times back when I was an advisor, the people felt a certain way and then we did the actual math and the math was far different than what was going on in their head. It helped change their feelings by doing the math.

[A]

I mean, I was just thinking about the example that Jesse gave about this. I feel like I'm not saving enough. I would be like, feel like it. What are you talking about? Like, you saved $87,219. What is wrong with you? That is an insane amount of money to save. That's awesome. Good job. Feel happy. Like, this is amazing. Well, I feel like I should have saved.

[C]

Feel happy, you idiot.

[A]

Yes, you dumbass.

[B]

Be happy.

[A]

OG mad.

[B]

I think this is seriously can be a problem in the personal finance community because how many times have we been, you know, you get the surround sound of people saving 50% of their income. You're only saving 42% of yours. You're like, oh my God, I got to find something else to do.

[A]

I'm saving 50% of my $20,000 income. Meanwhile, I'm saving 10% of my million dollar income and I'm the one that's the idiot.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah. Like, okay, Jesse. What?

[C]

Well, on that note, I mean, comparison,

[B]

I don't know where you go with

[A]

that Play OG no play game. OG have no feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Two uber quick thoughts. One comparison is the thief of joy. And that's a truism that OG just hit on. And as for a tip or a takeaway would be the average American probably has like 60 or 70 plus line items in their expenditures on a monthly basis. And if you review last month's expenditures in your from your credit card or bank account or whatever, can you find one thing where you're like, wish I didn't spend that money and cut that out. And I think sometimes just taking that step, whether it's a $10 step or a $500 step, gets you motivated to keep moving in that direction if you're feeling squeezed. Yeah.

[B]

A frustration that I always had was when someone was spending a lot of energy on looking rich versus being rich, building wealth. I think the goal is to build this life where your money supports your freedom instead of stressing you out. And if you feel like you're stressed out, those might be. Those might be flipped. You're too worried about feeling instead of building that margin. Great discussion, guys. Thank you so much for having it and helping. Hopefully quite a few stackers who apparently, according to the Wall Street Journal, a lot of people feeling that way right about now. Let's find out how else you're helping them though. Paula Pant, what is going on over at that place? You help tons of afforders at the Afford Anything show.

[E]

Oh well, on the Afford Anything show, Joe, you and I answer questions that come from our community and we cover all kinds of ground ranging from budgeting to mortgage payoff. You know, do I prioritize this versus that asset allocation? I mean we, we do it all.

[B]

Yep. We help lots of afforders strap on better money. It's what we do over at the Afford Anything show.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

Oh man. Oh gee. What do you got going on this find weekend, first weekend in June?

[A]

Well, I have a after school activity meeting Saturday and then a copious amount of bicycle time as I saddle my you know what around the streets of dfw.

[B]

So thank God it's not hot in DFW in June.

[A]

Well, the good news is I do it at like five in the morning because it's so friggin.

[B]

That is the good news.

[A]

That's the great news. Waking up at 3:45 so you can eat and have coffee and all that sort of stuff so you can then go sit on a bicycle for seven hours. Sounds like so happy.

[B]

I'm not training for marathons anymore where I'm getting up at 3:30 to beat the heat. Just pretty wild. Yes. Speaking of heat heat in Rochester, New York, those two things go hand in hand. So I won't ask you about that. Jesse. Let's find out what's going on at the Personal Finance for long term investors podcast.

[C]

I mean we do have beautiful summers here. If you're gonna visit Rochester or the Finger Lakes, come in the summer, it's gorgeous. But what's going on over on what are we calling it? Doug Pfly? Pflity, something like that.

[D]

Lately I've been really warming up to Filty. Filty. It's just filthy baby.

[C]

Filty the Silent Feast.

[B]

What a Filty podcast.

[C]

Yeah, we've got. I just released the second part of a two part series, the 14 Risks in Retirement and what you can do about them. It's using that Charlie Munger, you know, invert, always invert. So you start with the biggest risks and then you figure out what you need to do to combat those risks. So just drop the the second of the two parts of that 14 item list.

[B]

Getting through all the battles. The best battle is the one that's never fought. I think I got to say that once a week, Doug on the show, don't I?

[D]

You do. If you're not talking about e myth, you might as well do Sun Tzu.

[B]

Better do Sun Tzu. Right?

[D]

Better do it.

[B]

That's going to do it for today. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us. Thank you for everybody who hung out with us, especially on YouTube today. If you want to join us on YouTube, head to stack your Benjamin's YouTube channel Friday. Excuse me, Monday afternoons. Monday. We pretend it's Friday here. I almost got that backwards. So join us on Monday afternoons if you don't get the 201 newsletter, our fantastic newsletter. We also send you an email that tells you what the topic is going to be and what particular time it is, but Generally it's at 4pm Eastern time. Do the math on where you are across the United States or across the globe. 40, 49 different countries. Isn't that how many countries OG listening to Stacky Benjamin?

[A]

4900, actually.

[B]

4900 different companies. That's right.

[A]

And it's galaxies, by the way, not countries.

[B]

Well, we have a galaxy of different things that you can take away from this show, but Doug always takes it down to the top three. Doug, what should we have learned on today's episode?

[D]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Jesse right now there are more things to spend money on than at any point in history. And he says don't like, just don't, don't do that.

[A]

Don't, don't do it.

[D]

Second, let's review some words that came out of Paula's mouth. If you can't figure out why there's too much month left at the end of your money, it's time to start tracking your spending at a granular level. Maybe not forever, but at least long enough for you to get a handle on your habits. But the big lesson, don't ask Joe's mom about playing games on the Apple ii. I really don't think she understands computers because she started talking about visiting some castle called Wolfenstein and driving wagons down the Oregon Trail. Seriously, Ma, I wasn't asking you for childhood stories. Are we gaming or not? Thanks to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. You'll find his podcast Personal finance for long term investors. It's filthy. Wherever you listen to finer podcasts, we'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast afford anything wherever you listen to only the Finerist podcasts.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's be finerist.

[D]

Be finerist. Thanks also to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help, head to stackingbadges.comog for his calendar. Sorry, we're running out of time. This show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Sal Sehai. You'll find out about our awesome team@stacking benjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time. Time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.