← The Stacking Benjamins Show
The Stacking Benjamins Show
You Don't Need a Big Break to Become a Millionaire -- You Need a Better System (SB1823)
01:05:35
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- [00:00]
Joe
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- [00:39]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [01:11]
Caller/Listener
Hello, Honey, I'm at the mall now and I found this beautiful leather coat. It's only 1,000. Can I get it?
- [01:20]
Bola Sokunbi
Well, sure, if you like it that much.
- [01:23]
Caller/Listener
Okay. I also stopped by the Mercedes dealership and saw the new model. You know, the one I really.
- [01:28]
Doug
How much?
- [01:29]
Caller/Listener
120.
- [01:31]
Joe
Well, at that price, I want it
- [01:33]
Bola Sokunbi
with all the options. Great. Oh, and. And one more thing.
- [01:37]
Caller/Listener
The house we wanted last year is back on the market.
- [01:39]
Joe
They're.
- [01:39]
Caller/Listener
They're asking 1.5.
- [01:42]
OG
We'll make them an offer, but come in at 1.1.4.
- [01:48]
Bola Sokunbi
Okay. I love you, baby.
- [01:50]
Joe
I love you, too.
- [01:51]
Bola Sokunbi
Okay, bye.
- [01:54]
Joe
Does anybody know whose phone this is?
- [02:05]
Doug
Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show.
- [02:16]
Bola Sokunbi
Foreign.
- [02:20]
Doug
I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And how would you like to become a millionaire? Let's welcome our Wednesday mentor who teaches clever girls how to become millionaires. And today, she said she'll let the guys join, too. The founder of Clever Girl Finance, Bola Sokhunbi. In our headline segment, we have a headline that's a shocker. Debt is is up. That means if you don't have debt, you're getting behind. What does that mean for your wallet? We'll help you chart a path toward better living on someone else's dime. And of course, you've asked for it. And I'll deliver. Halfway through today's show, buckle up for my incredible trivia. And now, two guys who are ready to help you kick off the month of April. It's Joe and O. Jj. Jj.
- [03:10]
Joe
Hey there, Stackers. And does April make it officially spring? Doug, that in March.
- [03:15]
Doug
That happened. That already happened. Yeah, like 10:46am on like the 21st
- [03:20]
Joe
or something of March now. Baseball weather. I remember growing up in Michigan and there's still a foot of snow and you're out there with your glove and some shorts.
- [03:30]
Doug
It's not opening day at Comerica if there aren't snowflakes in the air. It's.
- [03:35]
Joe
It's, it's got to be a day to bundle up and celebrate spring in the northern climates. Or OG for you and me down here in Texas, celebrate the fact that it's not 100 yet.
- [03:45]
OG
I mean, it was 100 last week, so. You know, I always find it funny when I talk to Doug about my kids baseball. Yeah, it's like, yep, we got two weeks to go. He's like, till the season starts. Like, no, tilt's over. Yeah, we're done. It's like the kids in Michigan haven't even got their stuff out of the closet yet. And we're.
- [04:02]
Joe
I remember that with my kids track season just ending at the same time. It's in week two.
- [04:07]
OG
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:08]
Joe
It's crazy.
- [04:08]
OG
Tracks almost over.
- [04:09]
Joe
Well, speaking of crazy, it was crazy that we were able to get this woman back on the show. Bulla Secumbi is joining us today. She is the phenomenal mind behind Clever Girl Finance. Bola and I, it's so funny. I've got boy, girl twins. She has boy, girl twins. Our spouses are in very similar jobs for somebody that on the surface, we have very little in common.
- [04:32]
Doug
She.
- [04:32]
Joe
She grew up in Austria by way of Africa. I grew up in the Midwest. We have so much in common. The other thing we don't have in common is she has helped millions of women with her brand Clever Girl Finance. And it's a very powerful brand. It's helped so many people. And today even our clever guys get to glean the wisdom of the amazing Bolus Accumbie. She teaches us how to be millionaires. So that's up next, but we've got a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them. And then the Amazing Bola teaching us the four pillars to begin building our platform toward millions. In business, there is no room for guesswork. Every shipment matters, every deadline counts. And when you're trying to keep operations running smoothly, the last thing you need is uncertainty. That's why reliability is at the core of USPS ground advantage. From the moment your package is first scanned in, it moves through a secure nationwide network, aiding in a timely and accurate delivery. You get near real time tracking so you can keep up with your shipments. And with affordable upfront pricing. There are no hidden fees or surprise surcharges to throw off your cost sheets. It all adds up to predictable deliveries you can depend on because knowing your logistics are handled lets you focus on everything else. Your customers, your team and the future you're building. Visit usps.com/ground advantage to start shipping with confidence. USPS Ground Advantage we mean Business del PCs with Intel Insider built for the moments you plan and the ones you don't. There for those all night study sessions. The moment you're working from a cafe and realize every outlet's taken the times you're deep in your flow and can't be interrupted by an auto update. That's why Dell builds tech that adapts to you built with long lasting batteries so you're not scrambling for an outlet and built in intelligence that makes updates around your schedule, not in the middle of it. Find technology built for the way you work@dell.com DellPCS built for you. And I'm so happy this woman's back with us in mom's basement. Melissa, Cumby's here.
- [07:08]
OG
How are you?
- [07:09]
Bola Sokunbi
I'm good, Joe. So happy to be here. How are you?
- [07:12]
Joe
I am better now that I'm hanging out with you, of course. I've been excited about this all week and I'm really excited that you have another book. This is book number six. Bola.
- [07:22]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes, it is.
- [07:23]
Joe
You might have a problem. You might be on this book writing kick.
- [07:28]
Bola Sokunbi
It's actually book number seven, title number six.
- [07:32]
Joe
Oh, because the workbook.
- [07:34]
Bola Sokunbi
No, because I updated and expanded my very first book.
- [07:38]
Joe
That's right. Oh, you did well. And every time it's such an adventure and I don't want to. That's for a different podcast talking about the journey because I think it's fun. I think obviously you think it's fun. You've done it so often. You've got this concept in your book though, about this idea of financial pillars, right? If we're going to become a millionaire, there are four pillars that you're working from. First of all, let's talk about the pillars. Where did the idea for the four pillars come from? Or is this. Is this Ebola truism that comes from a long line of thinking about this.
- [08:11]
Bola Sokunbi
So I wouldn't call it Ebola truism, but basically when I was thinking about outlining this book Clever Girl millionaire and my journey to building wealth and achieving this financial position. What are the things that I did that helped me get to this place? I started thinking and brainstorming what led me here. I was like, okay, I had these four strategic pillars that I leveraged at different times in different ways, making mistakes, adjusting. But these were the four foundational things that have allowed me to get to this place. And so that's why I structured them that way into the book. Basically, pillars that helped me stand on this financial status today. Not anything unique to me, but basically what really helped me, you know, as
- [08:50]
Joe
you're even talking about this and you said the word foundational, it makes me ask the question, is the basic premise here, are we over complicating our money?
- [09:00]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes. Listen, we do overcomplicate money, Joe. You know, money is simple. And there's not a lot of innovation when it comes to personal finance, especially when it comes to the specific things we need to do. We need to avoid debts, pay down debt, save, invest, et cetera. We know these are the things. The wheel is the wheel, right? It doesn't change too much. Maybe products and services and the way we do it, technology changes. But the fundamental wheel of personal finance is what it is. But as human beings, our emotions come into play, our feelings, life happens. And that's where the complexity comes into play. And money starts feeling hard when it's really simple. And what makes it difficult is ourselves and life happening to us.
- [09:43]
Joe
It's so funny because I used to feel like there were these hard and fast rules. And then I realized if I think in terms of the pillars that we're going to talk about, like, then when life hits me, I'm able to be a little bit more resilient about what I do next. And I'm wondering, because to get into the idea of four pillars, is this pick a lane, like pick one of the four pillars, or is this multiple streams when we're thinking around pillars?
- [10:11]
Bola Sokunbi
So the four pillars are earned income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. At the very minimum, you need the earned income pillar. This is you initially exchanging your time for money to bring income in. And then after that, you can pick a pillar or layer pillars.
- [10:26]
Joe
So if somebody is sitting in mom's basement, let's say hypothetically, and they're thinking, I got a 401k, I think I'm fine. What are they missing?
- [10:36]
Bola Sokunbi
So you can definitely do more within each pillar. Right? And we can talk more about that. So, for example, let's start with earned income, right? This is you Going to work to exchange your time for money. This is the foundational aspect of all these pillars. Because when you get the money in, then you can put it towards investing towards your financial goals. Real estate, starting a business, travel, all these things. But within that earned income pillar, there are opportunities for you to maximize this pillar. So have you thought about negotiating your salary? Are you using your earning potential strategically in terms of how you're putting that money to work for you? Right. It's really important that we're maximizing each one of these pillars. You know, it's beyond just having that 401k, but what else are you doing in terms of investing? Have you opened an IRA in addition to that 401k? Have you opened a regular brokerage account in addition to that 401k? How are you investing within each of those vehicles? Right. Are you just buying individual stocks? Are you leveraging index funds and ETFs? Are you buying bonds? So each pillar is not a one thing you do within it and be done is basically thinking about how can I maximize the effect of each pillar for myself?
- [11:41]
Joe
I'm taking this improv class. You'll appreciate this Bola. I'm taking this class through Second City to actually get away from dad jokes and say some things that are funny once in a while. But. But what they teach you is kind of the same thing. It isn't no, but it's yes and right. It's I make more money by advocating for myself and then it's what I do with it is what you're saying. It's where I go next. So it's not one thing, it's yes, and I do this and then I do something else. And by the way, yes, and the reason I bring it up, that's a foundation for people that don't know of improv is that you say something, I go, yes. And where our natural reaction for most of us is, we say, well, no, but I was think we go this way instead. Instead you say, yes, I accept that premise and let's see if we can go to the next level.
- [12:28]
Bola Sokunbi
I like that.
- [12:30]
Joe
Let's dig into some of these for just a moment though. Advocating yourself raises and promotions, that sounds easy, but I am a guy that's employed people for a long time and there's a way to do it and a way not to do it. How do you suggest people begin getting on the road to advocating better?
- [12:45]
Bola Sokunbi
So I'll use myself as an example. When I got my first job, first job I'd ever had in The US I got a job as a consultant. My salary was $54,000 before taxes. I don't know what benefits I got because I was just excited to get this job. And I remember a few months later at a lunch meeting with my co workers, they started talking about salary. And that's a conversation HR hates for you to have. And a lot of my peers, maybe There was like 10 of us at this table, exact same qualifications as me, exact same job. We sat at the same desk together every day. I was making 54,000, one of them was making 70,000, 68,000, 75,000. And the difference between them and me was that they asked. I did not ask. I was just so excited. I accepted it. And that for me was an eye opening moment. I was embarrassed and I was annoyed. I'm like, well, you should have asked for more. And so that lit a fire under me and I started thinking to myself, how can I ask for more? Because basically what that has done is even if I get a promotion, I'm going to get a raise based on that salary that I never negotiated right. And, and so I went up to my career counselor, which we had assigned to us, or you have a mentor at work or a leader at work, or some, a friend at work that you trust that's at a higher position. And I said, listen, what can I do to start advocating for myself at work? And the advice she gave me, she was like, do your best work, which is what you're doing, but make sure that your manager knows that you're doing your best work and position yourself to get the best possible raises and other benefits so that when you leave this job, you have a better place to negotiate from. And that basically meant telling my boss, oh, you know that project that we worked on, I completed it, I'd love to get your feedback. And then she said, keep a checklist of all the things you've done really well at this company, no matter how small. Save every congratulatory or well done email from your boss. That way when you go into your promotion meeting or your assessment meeting, you know, you can say, by the way, boss, it's been a great year for me. Look at all these amazing things that I have done. And she's like, practice having that conversation. And it's not a fight, it's not an argument, it's you going to your boss, having this conversation and saying, boss, I've done all this amazing things. And she said, also, reach out to your boss once a month, every six weeks, and just say, hey, Boss, can I have a quick check in? So you say top of mind. And that worked for me so effectively, and I was able to negotiate each promotion. And by the time I left that job and I got into my last corporate job, before I got the idea to start my business, I was a super negotiator. I remember I went for my last interview and the boss was introducing me around. They hadn't given me the offer letter yet, but he said, me, Bola, she's going to be in the position that we've been trying to fill for the last two years. And when I heard two years, I was like, ding, ding, ding. That means they need me. So not only did I negotiate my salary, I was able to get a work from home plan once a week at the time when nobody was working from home. I negotiated getting a Mac computer when everybody had Windows. I negotiated my vacation time from two weeks to three weeks. I negotiated an economic chair that cost $2,000. I negotiated everything possible. And I just asked. I'm like, oh, hey, what kind of chair am I going to sit on? Oh, you know, I use a Mac on my last computer. Can I get a Mac now? I just asked and it was yes, no, yes, yes, no, no. And so when I started that job, you know, there was a manager there who was upset about my chair and my computer. And I'm like, the boss's office is right there. Go and ask. So you have to ask, knowing that the worst response you're going to get is no. And you know what you do when you get that note? You shelf it. And then in three months, you revisit it. You ask again.
- [16:08]
Joe
I spoke with a woman a couple of years ago, Bola, who said you have to think like an auctioneer, you know?
- [16:15]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes, I love that.
- [16:17]
Joe
Just keep going until you get no. And then you get no. And you're like, okay, well, then the one below that is. Is where we're at.
- [16:22]
Bola Sokunbi
But.
- [16:23]
Joe
But you're always at no until you ask. I love that idea and advocating for yourself. I think it's so important for people because in so many cultures, you don't want to brag. You don't want to be, you know, the person who really stands out with the peacock feathers going, look at me all the time. Like, to me and the way that I grew up, that just seems to be, whoa, just horrible. But I've learned over time, and I think, like, you have, that it isn't that people are busy and you have to tell them what you've done.
- [16:54]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes. And there's a tact to it. There's a difference between arrogant and just really showcasing what you've done and the value you bring to your workplace. And sometimes they don't see that value and it's time for you to move on. But it's not about arrogance. I think they're showing off. Nobody wants to look arrogant. It's not a good character to have. But there's a way you talk and you speak and you email and you present yourself in the workplace that you make yourself memorable and your value is recognized.
- [17:17]
Joe
This is another reason I think that you and I are friends is because of this next thing that you wrote in your book, which I think is so important. When you're young, you want to invest because of compounding interest. But you make a big point of saying one of the biggest investments you can make is investing in you. And this is the thing I think that we forget about. I feel like bola. We think about our investment Strategy As Roth IRA 401k, a few things in a brokerage account. We don't think of our investing strategy as what's the next class I'm taking? What's the next thing that I'm doing? What's a great way to begin this curriculum, I guess of investing in your skills?
- [17:57]
Bola Sokunbi
Yeah. So the one thing keep in mind is that you are the asset in this world. You are building. You are the major asset. And so you always want to think about how can I grow? Right. And so when you get a job, if you're working in, you know, for a company, for an organization, or even in your own business, you always want to think about what does future me look like? What do I want future me to look like in terms of what I want to achieve with my goals, with my career, with my business? So are there skills you can get that can help you get a better position, help you get more income in? Are there skills you can do that, help you provide your services and your products to your clients better? You always want to be thinking that way. How can I elevate myself? Skills, certifications, books and also the power of networking. Right? You can't build in isolation. And I had to learn that, especially as an introvert. There are people out there who want to know people like you and who are going to put people like you in certain rooms just by mere introductions. And so networking is also a part of that growth and that self development because people open doors for other people and eventually you then become that person that opens doors for other people too.
- [19:00]
Joe
I had to get around. And maybe you had to get around the same thing, that networking does not equal small talk. Because as an introvert, I generally can't freaking stance to small talk.
- [19:13]
Bola Sokunbi
And listen, I've had some nonsensical networking experiences that I'm like, I hate people. Get away from me.
- [19:21]
Joe
Paul, I just bought this coaster. You would love this coaster. Maybe I need to send it to you. It says, it says, I want you to invite me. I'm just not gonna come.
- [19:32]
Bola Sokunbi
That is me. I'm not coming.
- [19:34]
Joe
But I do want to be invited. Please invite me. But I think we have to get around that when we think about networking. Like, how do you about networking?
- [19:42]
Bola Sokunbi
For me, it's deep relationships. I do not like small talk. Right? For me, I'm not going to go to a conference and have my phone and collect phone numbers because none of those relationships are memorable. If you contact them, it's like, oh, who was that? Did I meet you? I gave you my business card. Collecting business cards and random small talk is not networking. I see it happen time and time again. Hi, my name is so and so, Can I get your business card? Hi, my name is so and so, can I get your business card? And you get random emails in your inbox. You're like, who is this annoying person? It is developing relationships. So for me, some of my biggest networks working opportunities have come from meeting people like you, connecting organically, having conversations, getting to know each other, from bosses that I did a great job working for. And I said, listen, I'm starting a business. You know, this is what I'm doing. Can you mentor me? So a lot of times the network you need to build already exists in your life. It is connecting better with those people, like your bosses, people at your job that maybe you admire, that have accomplished something big. People in your broader friends network that know other people, that maybe you've met them a few times or you've never really connected with them deeply. Those could be people that you could potentially build deep relationships with. Not randomly collecting business cards from people.
- [20:49]
Joe
It is so much more fulfilling. It is funny because you and I have lived as we've known each other a few years, different lives, but so fricking parallel.
- [20:59]
Bola Sokunbi
Like, I mean, our twin connection alone, just that alone.
- [21:04]
Joe
Telling Cheryl, I'm like, there's this woman who on the surface is so different than me and we've got so many things that are parallel, parallel to each other. But you only get that when you have a little deeper relationship. And that's what makes life for me. A lot more fun and makes networking, frankly, a lot more fun, is there? So now we've increased our income and we've got this engine running that's going to make us have more money. Now we put that money to work, which is your second pillar, investing. Now, we don't want to blow it. So you emphasize starting early, but a lot of people feel late. What do you say to people that tell you, I think I'm too late,
- [21:41]
Bola Sokunbi
I think it's important to dance your own financial beat. And I really stress on that in the book. You are on your own timeline, right? There are people who build incredible wealth and life happens and they lose all of it and they have to start over. So you're starting at your own time. That's what I like to say. I started early and I made ridiculous mistakes and I had to recover, which I talk about in the book. But the key is to starting now. There is this idea that perpetuated that, you know, 65 is the line in the sand. We all want to get to 65 and retire. But the thing is that when we get to age 65, which is our standard traditional retirement age, you can choose to retire early. You can work your plan that way is that at 65, you don't get there and drop dead. There is life beyond 65. Your money is working for you 20, 30 years. In the U.S. on average, retirement is about 25 to 30 years. That's more time. Your money has to grow and work for you. And when you get to age 65, you're not calling your bank and saying, sell everything, cash it all out, send it to me, I'm retiring today. You're taking out a certain percentage and the rest of your money keeps growing. Many retirees, as long as they have their health, they're not sitting down on their couch watching TV all day, they're pursuing second careers, passion, products, etc. So starting late is just this idea that has been perpetuated in us by what society expects us to be at a certain age. If you are starting at 30, 40, 50, 60, the key is to start right and start putting money to work for you and let the time and compounding work to your favor. Because guess what? Even if you think you're starting late and you don't start at all, the time is going to go by anyway. And then in another five years, you look back and be like, oh, I'm starting late, but just start.
- [23:18]
Joe
I mean, think as you're talking. Of course we want the compounding. But even without the compounding just the fact that I put some money away, that bought me flexibility.
- [23:25]
Bola Sokunbi
And it's growing. Yes.
- [23:26]
Joe
Even if it does very little, if it just keeps up with inflation, that's good. Not what we're looking for, but it's a step in the right direction. Let's talk about mistakes because you brought it up. Nothing I like talking about more than mistakes. What are some mistakes that not just Bola made, Joe probably made them too, but you see beginners make over and over and over.
- [23:44]
Bola Sokunbi
So I think the mistakes when it comes to money is just really a lack of knowledge and a lack of intention around our goals. For me, a lot of my mistakes were a lack of knowledge and a lack of intention around my goals. Right. So I did the right things. I went to the HR meeting. When I got my first job, I Contributed to my 401k. I got the match. I was putting money every paycheck and it was growing and growing. And I got a new job and I did the right thing. I didn't leave my money at my former employer. I didn't roll it into my new employers 401k. I opened up a rollover IRA so I could be exposed to the entire market.
- [24:16]
Joe
And guess what Bola did you bought individual stocks?
- [24:19]
Bola Sokunbi
No, I was like send me the check, I'm just going to put it in my bank account and I'll roll it over to my IRA later. And then I forgot and I didn't realize it was a 60 day window in which you had to make that rollover. I also didn't realize that I didn't need to get that check. I could just had my employer's brokerage just send it over to the new brokerage directly. But. But I kept the money in her bank account. And then at the end of the year was time to file taxes. Not only did I get hit with income tax of whatever percentage, I got hit with the penalty and I lost almost 40% of that savings. And I'm like, what do wrong? What I did wrong was not having the knowledge and a little bit of irresponsibility sprinkled in there. So that was one mistake. You know, that was a job I worked at for about four and a half, five years. And that was time and money lost just by that simple mistake. So when it comes to mistakes, we cannot beat ourself up. We have to assess what went wrong, take the lessons and just move forward. You know, I also talk in the book about my crazy wedding that was incredibly expensive inviting people. I didn't know, I didn't like to eat crazy per head plates. And then after we got married, we were eating rice and beans because we had no money
- [25:27]
Joe
because you spent it on one big party.
- [25:29]
Bola Sokunbi
I mean, did we need to have it? Do we need to do that? No. In retrospect, listen, I would have told my husband, let us elope. Do not tell anybody. We'll just show up tomorrow and say we're married. But we live and we learn. Mistakes are part of life, right? And so it's just assessing what went wrong. And the most important thing about mistakes is not allowing yourself to stay stuck and reversing your thinking about what you consider a mistake. A mistake is going to happen. It's inevitable. It's part of life, it's part of growth. So think about it as a stepping stone to where you're trying to get to next. Because now you know better. You can do things better, you can readjust things better, you know, not to let certain situations happen and etc.
- [26:08]
Joe
Let's say I've just become part of Clever Girl Nation. I got my first 401k. I'm looking at all these choices bola. I'm looking at all of this stuff, like where do I begin to parse? Like, what should I do when I'm just getting started investing in my first 401k?
- [26:28]
Bola Sokunbi
I think if you're just getting started, just make it simple. And when it comes to investing, you know, especially the stock market, you don't need to be Jim Cramer, you don't need to be super expert. You just need to know the foundations. You've just got that 401k, you just heard your employer has gotten a match. Like I did. Just pick an index fund, total market index fund. Sometimes employers only give you one option. My first employer just gave me one option. It was a mutual fund and I just put my money in there. It was expensive, but I was investing. And then start learning about how investing works. Pick up an investing book, check out Clever Girl Millionaire. And then you can start to adjust your plan accordingly. But definitely take the match. Definitely start putting money away for your future self. And then you can readjust the plan as you learn more. But don't let analysis paralysis keep you stuck where you know, you don't put any money in the 401k because you don't know where to put it.
- [27:15]
Joe
I think that's the big key, is that so many people feel like they're stuck, like the analysis paralysis thing is real. And they're like, oh my goodness, I got 87 choices. I'm not sure which one to do. So I'm not going to do anything. Which is, by far to your point, the worst thing to do.
- [27:28]
Bola Sokunbi
Yeah, Pick one. Pick one and then readjust.
- [27:30]
Joe
Just go. Next up is real estate and entrepreneurship. The third pillar you stress cash flow over appreciation. If you're going to get into properties, why does that matter?
- [27:41]
Bola Sokunbi
So when you're thinking about real estate as a pillar, I'm not talking about your home, right? The home that you live in. I'm talking about leveraging real estate as a way to bring money in. Appreciation is great in real estate, but it's not guaranteed. Right. We all know how real estate markets can work over time. When you're living in a house or you buy a house for your own personal use, you're buying this house to live in it for an extended period of time. Hopefully, as long as life is not changing for you, you're paying off your mortgage, you have this asset, maybe you're transitioning as part of your generational wealth plan. That's great. But when you're thinking about leveraging real estate to make money, appreciation is not guaranteed. Especially if you're trying to sell the property at a specific time to make money. We can't guarantee that. What you want to be able to guarantee is that every month after I've paid the mortgage, I've paid all the bills associated to this property. When I get that rental income in, the gap between my mortgage and the rental income is giving me a profit. That is what you want to focus on every single month and have appreciation as a perk. So that's important to think about real estate and becoming a landlord. Now, real estate is not for everybody. Listen, I tried it and I got a dose of a tenant from hell.
- [28:47]
Joe
This is, by the way, and I mentioned earlier, we have so much in common. I know you and I talked about this when we were together before. We have this in common too, just not for me.
- [28:57]
Bola Sokunbi
Again, I tried this pillar. I did eventually come back to this pillar, but in a different way. Right? So these pillars are not set in stone. It's all about customizing them in a way that's going to work for you. Customize the jobs you apply to, you customize what you invest in the stock market, and you customize how you invest in real estate and if you choose to invest in real estate. So for me, I had two rental properties. One was going great, the other one was going great until my tenant decided not to pay rent. And in my mind, I had built A buffer for my house, for repairs, for things like that. But I didn't really factor in not getting eight months of my mortgage, my rent, to pay my mortgage. Yes. I also did not factor in what it really meant to be a property manager when you have a bad tenant. Because my tenant, I don't know what life situation she went through, and I have empathy for her, but she changed drastically. She was fighting with the neighbors. Police were coming around. They were calling me all the time, not paying rent, not paying utilities, not doing all these things, and people were calling me. I'm getting emails from her all the time. I'm like, having to ask for my money, and that's not something I'm very comfortable with doing. And where is my money? Where is my money? Then we have to go to court. So it was kind of like, what is this? This is taking out time out of my life that I don't want to be spending on this. And we get to court, and the judge asks her, why have you not paid your rent? She said, well, my dad didn't teach me the value of a dollar.
- [30:20]
Joe
What?
- [30:20]
Bola Sokunbi
And I was like, okay, I have empathy for you, but at some point, as an adult, we have to take ownership, we have to take responsibility, and we have to stop blaming our parents. If I choose to blame my parents for all the things they did not teach me at my big age today, listen, just throw me away and I'm done. Because there's a lot of things my parents didn't teach me. But at some point, I have to stop blaming them.
- [30:46]
Joe
I know my parents didn't teach me the value of a dollar. That's surprising. I don't know. A little offensive. Like, what does that have to do with you and making.
- [30:54]
Bola Sokunbi
That's what the judge asked her. He was, like, evicted.
- [30:56]
Joe
Yeah. And you're gone.
- [30:58]
Bola Sokunbi
Yeah. So real estate is one of those things where you have to know what you're getting into. So me, I did not enjoy the property management in customer service. I have a friend who has done incredibly well in real estate. He has 17 properties he manages with a property manager. So I stepped out of real estate because I didn't enjoy it, and I stepped back in with REITs. And also my husband and I, we invest in physical properties, but not as individuals with groups. So we never have to go there, we never have to send an email. We never have to pursue rent. None of that. That is. So that's a different angle to which we invest in real estate. And you may decide that, you know what real estate is not for me at all. I don't even want to put my money in a REIT in an investment trust fund. And that's fine. You can look at other avenues like stock market investing, which we just talked about pillar two, or entrepreneurship, which is pillar four.
- [31:43]
Joe
Well, and it's interesting that you say that because when we talk about buying a re, I mean, it's so easy for stackers that don't know. You had mentioned, you know, buying just an index fund, you could buy a real estate index, you could buy just that, and then you could still have it in your portfolio. But what I really like about what you said, you know, we did an interview a few weeks ago with these two researchers about stock market maestros and what the best stock market investors do, and a ton of it polo was they know themselves, they know their biases. And for me, if I was going to get back into real estate, and I do have real estate investment trust, but if I was going to go with individual properties, I would know myself a bunch better and plan for those biases that I have.
- [32:27]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes.
- [32:28]
Joe
Meaning I don't want to go be Joe the money collector.
- [32:34]
Bola Sokunbi
The debt collector.
- [32:35]
Joe
That's right. I could see Bola showing up at the house with a baseball bat like, you know, no, we don't want anything to do with that. Let's talk entrepreneurship. Because I think there's an important thing that people always wonder, which is, you know, entrepreneurship at the beginning is hard. There's a book that I've been reading just recently from a guy who created a chain of coffee shops in the Midwest. In fact, I have it right here. It's called called Grind Coffee Shop Grind.
- [33:03]
Bola Sokunbi
Oh, that's cool.
- [33:04]
Joe
Yes, Grinding coffee. But he does talk about Bola. What you and I already know as entrepreneurs, the first few years are really, really hard. And you have to think a lot about marketing and there is a risk there. So how do you get into entrepreneurship and balance that risk without blowing up your entire financial life?
- [33:23]
Bola Sokunbi
So I have a lot to say about entrepreneurship. I don't often get to talk about it because I always have my financial expertise expert hat on. But entrepreneurship changed my life. And it's not just this business. For context, both of my parents are first generation everything. Grade school, high school, college. And they came out of that with the responsibility of their broader extended family. Even till this day, taking care of siblings and cousins, paying rent and tuition, housing, meals. People were always in our house because my parents were the first in their family to achieve something. And so I grew up thinking about, you know, watching my parents sacrifice a lot and watching them just take a lot away from themselves in order to support all of us. So when I got my first job, I wanted to find ways to make more money. I watched my mom become a side hustle queen in Nigeria. She went to college after she had her four kids, in her 30s, became an investment banker, was running side hustles and then she migrated here, just wanting to again continue to provide a better life for herself, her kids, her extended family. My mom started working as a nanny because her education did not transfer. And then a certified nurses aid and then she eventually pursued her dream of becoming a nurse. So for me, I wanted to be able to make my parents proud and just bring money in so that I could also support in the way that I could. So when I think about entrepreneurship, it doesn't have to be a big, excessive, over the top business. My first little side hustle was an Avon lady. I was an Avon lady harassing my aunties and my mom's friends to buy my Avon products so I could have a little pocket money. You know, I was trying to figure out living through college. I started a photography side hustle. I also worked as a nanny to bring money in. And those are things that I did to help me further my goals. Now when it comes to quitting your job to run a business, that's where it can get really difficult, right? Because you're trying to scale this thing, get it on its feet, have it become profitable so that you can live your life based on this business you have gotten. And I always tell people, pace yourself. So when I started this business, Clever Girl Finance, what I did, I was like, okay, I do not want my dream and my pursuit of this business to impact my family's finances. I'm not a big risk taker. So what I'm going to do is put aside 12 months of my core essential finances that I need to support my household, what I was doing right, and then I'll test out this business. If it doesn't work out, I'm going to dust off my resume. In fact, I kept it current and I'm going to go back and find a job. So it's okay to work. I worked full time until I could no longer sustain my full time job, my photography business and Clever Girl finance. And then I thought about getting a part time job. But I was like, okay, I still have this Runway, let me make that work. It's okay to work part time while you pursue your full time business. Pace yourself, give yourself Grace, knowing that we see a lot of sensationalism on social media. I started a business. Today I'm a billionaire. Tomorrow, my business taken off, a billion dollars in sale. Don't get carried away by that kind of stuff. Most times it's not like that. There's tears, there's grinding, there's pivoting, there's readjusting.
- [36:11]
Joe
Someone even told me once, Paula, they said, what you're seeing on social media is the top 1% bragging about their top 1% of their moments.
- [36:20]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes. Yes. It's a highlight reel.
- [36:21]
Joe
It's not just the top 1%. Is the top 1% bragging about their top 1%?
- [36:25]
Bola Sokunbi
Yep.
- [36:26]
Joe
There's no reality there.
- [36:27]
Bola Sokunbi
Exactly. So pace yourself. Entrepreneurship can be great, but you also need to understand what you're getting into. It's not a one and done thing. You're going to have to adjust. Pivot market, come back, readjust. Pivot market, step out of your comfort zone. There may be times, I mean, the first year of clever finance, I made $200. $200. I was like, what are you doing?
- [36:50]
Joe
What'd you do with both of those? Benjamin's Bola?
- [36:53]
Bola Sokunbi
I don't know. I paid taxes.
- [36:58]
Joe
That's pretty, pretty Amazing. Tax on 200 bucks. Did you set that aside? We should have done the whole interview based on that. Did you set all that money aside? What did you do, set up a separate savings account? Right.
- [37:12]
Bola Sokunbi
I probably had to pay my website bill, which was like 250amonth. Something I don't remember.
- [37:17]
Joe
There's a few things I want to highlight that you said for our stackers, though. Number one was you gave yourself a Runway, but that Runway included an end of the Runway going, you know what, I'm going to do it for X amount of time. I'm going to see how it goes. I'm going to grind, I'm going to pivot, I'm going to do the things I need to do. And if it's not successful, I'm going to be okay with the fact of going and doing something else. I'm going to pivot again. And I think that's important. But I also think that it's important the fact that you looked at, at where your income streams would come during that time. Either having part time income coming in from other places, setting money aside ahead of time, like giving yourself that thought process. It blows me away when I see somebody start a restaurant and they sell everything. You know, they do the old Greek mythology, burn the ships when we're attacking.
- [38:02]
Bola Sokunbi
They cash out their 401ks everything, put it all into this business because they've read some celebrity, wealthy person did that. I'm like, that is one person in a sea of millions of business owners around the world. That's a risk I cannot afford to take. I did not touch my 401k. I left it alone. In fact, it gave me so much anxiety having to pause those contributions when I quit my job because I felt like, oh, my God, yeah, my free money.
- [38:28]
Joe
Yeah. I mean, because you really are. You think about the amount of money if you would have stayed on that path, but then you think about the value of your time and what you really want to do. And to your point, exactly. It's so valuable and it can be, be so, so, so fun.
- [38:40]
Bola Sokunbi
You have to create a balance that makes sense. And also I find that when you're starting a business, it's a high anxiety time, high stress, high pressure. It's like a newborn baby that you're trying to put all of your efforts into. The last thing you want to have is a financial burden in the back of your head that's not allowing you to fully focus on this business, on this baby, because you haven't created a strategy or a plan to help your business, to give your business the grace to get on top of your. It's on its feet.
- [39:06]
Joe
We have one more thing to talk about. And for me, this is the coolest thing in this particular chapter that you and I have been diving into, chapter three of your book. And it is this idea that, yes, these are pillars and while they stand alone, they also raise a shared roof. And so you've got this combination aspect of the pillars where now the way we do this, the secret sauce is not go, no, no, I'm just going to earn more money or I'm just going to. Or I'm just going to do real estate or I'm going to. Just going to do. Nope. I take these pillars now and I work them together now. I fuse them like a chef. Right. And so you do that at the end. Is there a best combo of these pillars or is it personality driven? Is there a way you think about the pillars in conjunction with each other?
- [39:55]
Bola Sokunbi
The best combo is what fits into your life and works for you and allows you to have peace of mind around your finances. So for me, my foundation was earned income. I used my earned income to start my investing and continue my investing pillar. I leveraged my earned income to build into my real estate pillar. Didn't work out. I pulled out of that pillar use my earned income to build into my entrepreneurship pillar, leverage my entrepreneurship pillar to put more money into my investing pillar and also my real estate pillar, because I invest in those two pillars through my entrepreneurship. So it's all about combining these pillars in a way that works for you, stacking them, pulling out if you need to, coming back into one. But it has to fit your lifestyle because it's a long term play.
- [40:37]
Joe
It's so interesting. I mean, looking at earned income for into investing, real estate, into entrepreneurship, multiple streams for resilience. Right? Just having the resilience because you have these and really thinking about that earned income. That first pillar, like it's a booster rocket. You can jettison it once you're making enough money on the other places you know, a dream. I think of a lot of our stackers and a lot of your clever girls is to tell their boss where to go. Or at least, you know, maybe they love their boss, but they know that if they don't love their boss in the future, they have the ability to do that.
- [41:12]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes, yes, Goodbye.
- [41:15]
Joe
So power. Yeah, that's just a taste. Stackers. The book is amazing. Like all Ebola's work is so, so, so good. It's called Clever Girl Millionaire and I believe it everywhere yesterday.
- [41:28]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes.
- [41:30]
Joe
Awesome. And if people want to dive into the clever girl community, how do they do that more?
- [41:35]
Bola Sokunbi
Yes, you can find us@clevergirl finance.com we have 30 plus free courses, 40 plus worksheets, YouTube channel at Clever Girl Finance, Instagram at Clever Girl Finance. In your browser, put in Clever Girl Finance or in your chat AI, your chat GPT, your clothes. Put in Clever Girl Finance and you will find us. And I just wanted to add Joe for your listeners. You know, when people hear the word millionaire, it can be a bit apprehensive. It can feel like it's out of touch. But remember, this is a journey. This is a marathon. It's not a sprint to give yourself grace. I made many mistakes and I have been building for many, many years. And so pace yourself, work your plan, adjust your plan, but don't give up.
- [42:20]
Doug
Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's guest neighbor, Doug, and I'm glad you knew we weren't fooling around today, Even though it's April 1st. How about Bola sukunbi, huh? Now you're all on the road to becoming millionaires. Before you get moving though, I'll share some trivia with you about April 1st. It was on today's date way back in 1856 that London's newspapers began reporting that gullible people were being sent to witness the washing of the the lions at a famous tower in London. When the person arrived, there would be throngs of people there entertained by seeing who believed the prank. So here's the question. What still famous landmark in London reportedly housed these lions? I'll be back right after I go tell Joe's mom it's Dairy Queen Fan Appreciation Day. Maybe she'll fall for it and take us out for Peanut Buster parfaits, huh?
- [43:22]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [43:52]
Caller/Listener
What would you do if your online store converted 36% more shoppers? You could take 36% more vacation.
- [43:58]
Joe
Another pina colada?
- [43:59]
Caller/Listener
Yes, please open a new retail location with 36% more square feet.
- [44:04]
Joe
Fantastic.
- [44:05]
Caller/Listener
How do you 36% more help?
- [44:07]
Doug
You're hired and you're hired.
- [44:08]
Caller/Listener
Shopify has the world's best converting checkout up to 36% better than other e commerce platforms. What you do with those extra sales is up to you. Switch to Shopify today@shopify.com Listen and get a $1 trial. Shopify.com Listen this episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored jobs to find the right right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply.
- [44:51]
Joe
We're looking for the answer and correct spelling.
- [44:53]
OG
Old MacDonald had a what farm?
- [44:56]
Bola Sokunbi
E I E I O.
- [45:03]
Doug
Hey there stackers. I'm basement prankster and guy who's foiled again. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. So I told Joe's mom that it was Dairy Queen Fan Appreciation Day so she'd have us all get in the car and check it out and then hopefully buy us all ice cream once she realized it was a ruse. Well, the good news, she she fell for it. The bad News. She left me here at home to wash the dishes for her while she grabs the ice cream. That one kind of backfired. So let's get you the trivia answer. It was on today's date, back in 1856, that people started gathering for the original April Fool's prank, the washing of the lions. Now, the reason people fell for it is that there had been lions, like real live lions, at this famous tower, for over 600 years, although there hadn't been any recently. So when people were handed a ticket to check out the lions being washed, they showed up to a massive pack of pranksters ready to laugh at whoever presented a ticket. And now back to the mic. Here comes your ticket to better money habits. Joe and Og,
- [46:16]
Joe
thanks to Bola for hanging out with us today. Oh, gee. It's interesting that her very first pillar is earning income. I remember so many times in financial planning where people that listen to a show like ours, they have buttoned every button that they possibly can. Their budget is nailed down and it truly is an income problem. Like, making more money isn't going to solve your problems if you haven't buttoned down your budget. But if you have, maybe earning more money is the key.
- [46:49]
OG
It sounds very easy to say, right? Just, let's go make more money. Go make more money, Joe. Super easy. It's not easy. You can only get to rice and beans so quickly and stay there for so long before you can't cut anymore. If you have good systems and you add income to the good systems, you've got a way better likelihood of capturing that excess and putting it to work where it's supposed to be.
- [47:14]
Joe
And to be clear, earning more money. Because it does sound easy. And I thought that was the key in the early 90s. I'll just earn more money. No, I had really crappy money habits. And until I solved that problem, earning more money was going to take me nowhere. But it also was just so frustrating to see good people floundering. And then it was funny. I would work with them, and I wasn't a negotiation expert, but I work with them. We'd role play on how to ask their boss for more money. And man, the next week they call back and go, oh, my God, I got a raise. I asked my boss for this raise and I got and. And it solves so many problems. Because now they already knew how to automatically put that money away. They had systems in place and they were able to solve a lot of their issues and not being able to get what they wanted, it was it was super powerful. Speaking of powerful, man, I got a powerful headline.
- [48:02]
OG
Hello, darlings.
- [48:03]
Caller/Listener
And now it's time for your favorite
- [48:05]
OG
part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.
- [48:08]
Joe
Today's headline comes to us from Forbes. Well, here's a number that I found startling, guys. As U.S. debt passes $39 trillion, Americans are paying $900 billion in interest annually. Oh, gee, we are up to $900 billion of debt. That's a big number.
- [48:30]
OG
$900 billion. Yeah, sure. Seems like a lot.
- [48:36]
Joe
Well, and it's interesting because, you know, over time on this show, we've said get out of debt. It turns out that we're, we're doing this wrong because clearly some people are crushing it. I mean, I think about Americans paying $900 billion a year in interest. That's a big fat number. That makes me think, if you're not paying any interest, are you really even trying?
- [49:00]
OG
It's just a function of society, right? At the end of the day, how can you get ahead if you don't have some leverage in your life? The reality is you've got to have a nice vehicle because people aren't going to do business with people that have crappy cars. You need to be networking in the right neighborhood, so you got to be in the right house. So if that means you got to spend a little bit extra, etc, and maybe only have 5% down instead of 10% down, that's better because the social value of being around other people that are just like you is way more valuable.
- [49:34]
Joe
Well, and we've talked about conserve your cash for other stuff. Right. I mean, clearly, if cash is king, we want that cash deployable at a later date.
- [49:43]
Doug
Yeah. Now you're in the nicer neighborhood driving the cars. Those neighbors have expectations that you're going to be out, out eating at a fairly decent restaurant like on a Tuesday or a, or a Thursday. And you can't say no to that. I mean, that's like, this is all. You're just building social capital which leads to bigger, better jobs, opportunities, opportunity. Like, that's just, it's, it's another form of investment. And I don't think.
- [50:06]
OG
Country club.
- [50:07]
Doug
Yeah, I don't think we give that enough credence here on the show.
- [50:10]
OG
How do you get an invite to the good club in town if you're not in the neighborhood with the people? And the way that you do business with people at the club is by being at the club. You know what I mean? So, like tennis, golf, whatever you need to be around. I mean, it sounds really trite to say, but you got to buy access.
- [50:28]
Doug
That's not trite. That's just the way the world works.
- [50:30]
OG
Yeah, you're buying access. I mean, I mean another perfect example, schools.
- [50:35]
Joe
Right.
- [50:35]
OG
I guess there are people out there who can go to a state school and you know, whatever, that's totally fine. But if you really want to, you know, if you just look at like how your career can progress, private school is clearly the solution. Even if it causes you to have a little bit of student loan debt.
- [50:53]
Joe
And we don't mean to be offensive to people that went to public in state universities or a two year college or that didn't even attend college.
- [51:01]
OG
Yeah, the reality is like you have a different path and it's going to be a lot harder.
- [51:05]
Joe
Yeah, it is going to be the struggle bus. Especially I mean when we're looking at $900 billion of debt that Americans have been able to pile up. And in a lot of cases, you know, when we've surveyed the stacking, Benjamin's audience we haven't done a lot of it. Like I feel like we're a little bit behind this curve. I mean, I Even look at OG the IRS in this piece from Forbes. Listen to this. 39 of every tax dollar that you put away that, that goes toward interest. I mean it, it makes me feel like if it's 39 cents of every dollar going to pay interest on former debt, it's like Uncle Sam's basically running this giant rewards program.
- [51:47]
OG
Well, and there's some synergy there too, right? So if you like look at, when you're applying for a mortgage, what does the bank say you should have? They recommend that you have 36% of your household income for debt payments. And that's really scientifically based on obviously it's using some government data like you're talking about. But it's also, that is the amount that balances out your need for the future, but also consumption today. And then looking at it from the perspective of how do you really optimize all of the dollars that you have and if you get to that, that 35, 36% number like the bank suggests, if you go in for a mortgage and you go, hey, I make $100,000 a year, right. The bank's going to say all of your debt should equal 36,000. That's the goal. I mean some banks, some of the more forward thinking ones go up to 42%. So they'll say, hey, all of your debt, maybe your house is 36k a year, but then you've got a $6,000 car payment, $500 a month, totally reasonable. So now you're at 42. That's, that's really what the banking people have identified as really the most optimal number.
- [52:56]
Joe
We talk a lot about using mathematics on this show and I think this is where the math becomes important to really optimize. Doug?
- [53:03]
Doug
Well, two things. One, when you're going for a mortgage, you're going to hear an acronym used called dti. That's what OG was just talking about, debt to income. So I just want you guys to all be prepared when you apply for a mortgage or ask about your DTI. And like OG said, you want that really between 36 and 42. And a great analogy for that. And I worked in the mortgage industry for a little while and we would use this frequently with people who are applying for loans. Is, you know, on a sports car, on a really high performance sports car, they say the engine is the most efficient. You're getting the most power to weight ratio out of that vehicle. When the tachometer is at redline like you want it. It's like right before, right before it, like probably 8,000 rpm. Stick with the analogy. You just want it max right at the edge. Yeah, that's kind of what they're looking for is, is the optimal financial situation.
- [53:56]
OG
Yeah, that's the gas. That's the right combustion. You know, all this stuff.
- [54:00]
Joe
I'm actually finding it a little humorous and pretty amazing that Doug, who normally plays the part of the everyman on the show, and Wednesday's our day for mentors. Like Doug's really stepping up to the mic on this one.
- [54:11]
Doug
Well, we're in my wheelhouse now.
- [54:13]
Bola Sokunbi
Now.
- [54:13]
Joe
Yeah, we talked on Monday about you don't want to be emotional about your investing plan. You should work through those emotions and instead use systems. We're going to do the same thing here on Wednesday. Not only do we hear on Wednesday from the most brilliant mentors, people like Bola, or last week, our stock market maestros, Claire and Lee, but today we are rolling out your systematic debt building plan. If you feel behind on this, I don't think there's anything to worry about. I think we can get you started in the right way. And the first thing OG that we identified as we were building this, I think it's important to start small but not too small, like carry a balance on your credit card. And Second, ignore the 0% offers because those are for amateurs.
- [55:01]
OG
And that's kind of 101 stuff. As you're looking at more. Is esoteric the right word here, Doug?
- [55:08]
Joe
Yeah, I'm trying.
- [55:08]
Doug
I think it might be.
- [55:09]
Bola Sokunbi
Be.
- [55:09]
OG
Yeah, it might be. Let me finish it. And then you can come back and judge. More advanced. Maybe that's a better way. It's like 201 is what I'm thinking of here. Strategies. You look at your brokerage account. This is a perfect example. So let's say that you got a brokerage account. It's got 100k in it. And we know for a fact that, you know, over long periods of time, that's going to grow at 10% a year.
- [55:27]
Doug
Right.
- [55:28]
OG
That's the number that we put in. Statistically, if you invest $200,000, you're going to have a better return than the guy that has 100. Everybody understands that completely. If I have 200,000 in my account and Joe has 100,000 in his, we run it out for the next 30 years, I'm going to have more money. So the question is, how do you get that other 100? Well, the great news is that Schwab or Fidelity or whoever will give that a hundred thousand to you as a loan. Basically, it's called margin. And you can refinance this different ways, but it's a fantastic way to basically double your market exposure. There's a little interest, which is totally fine, but. But you already know on the back end, hey, 200k is better than 100. So, you know, people ask me a lot. They like, what are the 1% do? This is it. This is one of those things.
- [56:13]
Doug
Yeah.
- [56:14]
OG
Other people's money. Opm.
- [56:16]
Doug
Yeah, I was going to bring that up because that's a phrase that I remember being really confused about as I was just getting acquainted with personal finance. And it used to sound like such a bad thing. Like it doesn't sound nice to be to use other people's money.
- [56:30]
Bola Sokunbi
Money.
- [56:30]
Doug
Now I get it.
- [56:31]
Joe
100. That's the goal.
- [56:32]
Doug
Use as much other people's money.
- [56:34]
OG
Don't use yours. Yeah. Use other people's.
- [56:36]
Joe
Well, and I think you bring up another important point, which is you don't just want credit card debt because again, more rookie stuff there. Oh, gee.
- [56:44]
OG
Well, it's concentrated risk.
- [56:45]
Joe
Absolutely. You need to stay diversified. So not just credit cards, but car loans, personal loans. And then when you're getting emotional, don't get emotional. Use Buy now, pay later so that you can extend the feelings over a longer period of time.
- [57:01]
OG
Well, here's the problem, though, with Buy Now, Pay later is most of that stuff doesn't actually come with interest. It's like layaway. So it's like. It gives you the feeling of having debt but not actually having to pay for it. So it's like. I'll give you a great example. I bought a bike trainer thing for this race we talked about that I'm doing, And it was 600 bucks. And it said, okay, you can do. You can pay $600 right now. Of course, charge that minimum payment. Then you've got interest, which is good. We've talked about. Or you could do the buy now, pay later, and it's $200 a month for three months. Well, that's. That's just layaway. That's not interest at all. That's defeating the purpose. So be careful with buy now, pay later, because it doesn't really function the way that you think it does.
- [57:47]
Joe
Step three on our list is you got to grab those premium interest rates. I mean, we talk. You hear the word upgrade a ton in our economy, and I think this is the place where you need to focus on premium. Because low interest rates, embarrassing store cards. 29%. Bam. Cash advances. Bam. Late fees. Like those are bonus multipliers. Bam.
- [58:12]
OG
Well, you talked about a credit card rewards program, you know, that the government is running, basically. And I know that was a little tongue in cheek. Look at how many points you can get from, let's say a cash advance. It's like you could go charge something, which is fine. If you've got to use cash, don't use cash from your bank account. You don't get any points for that. Go to the bank, give them your MX card. Premium product. See? See what I did? There they go. Oh, front of the line for this guy. But instead of taking money out of your bank. So cash flow. Right, Right. Cash is king. Your cash is king. You use other people's money. There's Doug's favorite new quote. Use Amex. And you go, hey, I need cash for this thing. Don't take it out of my bank account. Use. Use this credit card. You get points, you get to pay interest. You're moving up the ladder in terms of, like, how. Amex. Yeah, I was gonna say it's a. Just like a triple win.
- [59:07]
Doug
Don't underrepresent the value. Again, back to social capital of what other people think when you pull that silver or black card out of your wallet,
- [59:17]
Joe
that. I think that's a great place to wrap this up, guys, because we opened with this. You're not just missing out financially, you're missing out socially. If you're not helping the country build this stack of debt. I mean, you're at a party everybody's talking about. My interest is at $24.99. So is yours. I just rolled my debt into a heloc. How many times have you heard about that? So have you. People always bragging about those great things they did. Now you can say my minimum payment's bigger than my rent. And you're standing there, I mean, like, imagine if you don't do this. You're standing there like, well, I pay my balance in full like a chump.
- [59:53]
Doug
What a doofus.
- [59:54]
Joe
Yeah. I mean, that person gets escorted out of the party. I feel like debt is like concert tickets. Like, if you didn't overpay, we're even there. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'll link to this piece about how the US Is building debt and you can too. On our show notes at stack. It doesn't say in the piece you can too. I think that's what we, we were able to successfully add to it.
- [60:16]
Doug
Just that's the value we're here to add.
- [60:17]
Joe
Yeah, we connect the dots, Doug. That's gonna pretty much do it for today. I know. If you're going to be in the Texarkana area coming up, why run away?
- [60:28]
Doug
Run away
- [60:31]
Joe
next week.
- [60:32]
OG
Keep driving.
- [60:33]
Joe
The Paula Pant will be here for a live Stacking Benjamins recording. That's going to be Tuesday night. What's Our date? Doug?
- [60:40]
Doug
April 7 at Texas a and M Texarkana.
- [60:46]
Joe
It is on the campus there.
- [60:48]
Doug
Tuesday, April 7th.
- [60:49]
Joe
It's going to be a live special joint. Stacky Benjamin's stacking. I was gonna say stacking afford anything. We're taking over Paula joint episode live in front of the students and community here in Texarkana. First time we've ever done a live show in Texarkana. So hope you can come join us. That's Tuesday night. Stacking benjamin's.com meetup.
- [61:13]
Doug
Joe, I want to do a quick rundown of all the other meetups because there's so much happening in April. Don't forget Boston, April 8th at Hannah's Brewing Seattle. That's at 6pm Seattle, April 9th, 5pm at the Berliner Pub. Southern Minnesota. Mankato, April 22nd, 6:30 at the Maverick Innovation Gateway. We've also got meetups we know are happening in the twin cities on April 29th. We're going to get you a time and location before that happens. And and you can periodically check stackingbenjamins.com meetup we'll have details there. And also Tucson, our new group in Tucson. Be sure to join them on our Facebook on their Facebook page. On our Facebook. We own Facebook now apparently. But they're having a meet up on April 15th also. We know the date. We don't have location and time yet but but do the same thing there. Check stacking benjamin's.com meetup for the Tucson and Twin Cities details. But lots, lots going on in April.
- [62:13]
Joe
Super exciting to see stackers getting together across the country. And as I've gone to many of these events, man, it's always just great to hang out with like minded people. Just absolutely great. Stacking benjamin.com bad all right, last but not least, if you are wondering how your money looks versus is some of the concepts that we talked about today and Bola talked about today and other of our amazing mentors that we have on every Wednesday talk about some of the smartest people in the world when it comes to either making more money, having a better spending plan. As Bola talked about today, the pillars to becoming a millionaire, whatever it might be. If you are wondering how am I doing? Well, OG and his team have created a scorecard you can take for free. Their scorecard assessment, it's stacky benjamin.com scorecard gets you there and you can see how you're doing with your money. And it's very interesting. Doug, you took it and it turns out that a reboot I think was what OG said is.
- [63:13]
Doug
Yeah, it was actually helpful I think for og. I was an early beta tester and it just sort of froze up, was weird at the end. It just sort of locked up and said that the calculation didn't.
- [63:25]
Joe
I don't know, I mean machinery.
- [63:26]
Doug
Yeah.
- [63:27]
Joe
It's always good to have testers ahead of time that can possibly need edge cases.
- [63:31]
Doug
And I'm, I'm usually an edge case for everybody's test of something and in this case, turns out I was at the lower end of that edge.
- [63:39]
Joe
And as we've always heard, there's one thing Doug's good at, it's hedging. All right, that's going to do it for today. Doug, you got it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's show?
- [63:49]
Doug
Well Joe, first take some advice from Bola Sukhounbi from Clever Girl Finance. To become a millionaire, you don't need a crazy idea or a lottery ticket. You build a strong foundation and work your plan. You got this Whether you're a clever girl or clever boy. Second leverage. Yeah. April fool stackers. We got you so bad you're burned. Yeah, don't. Don't do any of the stuff we said. But the big lesson, Turns out Joe's mom got the last April Fool's laugh. She just returned with zero. Exactly zero Peanut Buster parfaits. But she was packing a mean whiskey breath and a few of these really cool drink coasters from Fat Jacks. So, you know, I'm. I guess she won this round. Thanks to Bola Sukunbi for joining us. Today you'll find Bola's newborn book, Clever Girl Millionaire, out yesterday. Yesterday just out hot off the presses wherever books are sold. We'll also include links in our show notes@stackingbenjamins.com this show is the property of SB Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026, and is created by Josal Sehai. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and. And how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh, yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.
- [65:45]
OG
Give them your amex card. Premium product. See? See what I did? There they go. Oh, front of the line for this guy.
- [65:52]
Joe
And.
- [65:59]
OG
I'll get it. Rocket this because we all live it.
- [66:03]
Bola Sokunbi
It's so easy.
- [66:06]
Joe
I just rolled my dad into a heloc. How many times have you heard about that? So have you. My minimum payment. Like, I can't do it. My minimum payment's bigger than.
- [66:26]
Bola Sokunbi
Three.
- [66:27]
Joe
Three, two, one.
- [66:28]
OG
Hood.
- [66:34]
Joe
Everybody has these wild stories about the great things. People are always bragging about those great things they did. I think I'm going to end on that. I was going to say something about the fact that it's April Fool's Day and we're not fooling, but we're going to leave that alone. That is awesome.