You Don't Need a Huge Income to Build Real Wealth SB1825

Summary

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The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: You Don't Need a Huge Income to Build Real Wealth (SB1825)
Date: April 6, 2026
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy, OG (Other Guy), Len Penzo, Doug
Special Segment Co-Host: Anna (CFP)

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Episode Overview

This lively episode explores the myth that building real wealth requires a massive income, spotlighting the practical habits of so-called "Midwest millionaires"—ordinary people achieving extraordinary financial results through discipline, frugality, and intentional spending. Based on a Kiplinger article and the hosts' personal experiences, Joe, OG, and Len share simple, repeatable habits and life lessons for listeners seeking sustainable wealth, regardless of where they live or how much they earn. The show keeps things relatable and fun, with classic Stacking Benjamins banter, and includes a financial basics Q&A with Anna and OG, as well as advice for finding the right financial advisor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Midwest Millionaire Mentality

Timestamps: 09:25–10:47

• Inspired by: Kiplinger article: “We Have Food at Home”
• Focuses on how typical millionaires in the Midwest build wealth through:
  • Saving diligently
  • Spending wisely
  • Creating disciplined systems rather than chasing investment fads or relying on huge salaries
• Quote (Joe, 03:35):
  “How would you like to be a Midwest billionaire? Work hard, save diligently, spend wisely, create a life built on discipline instead of extravagance…”

2. Traits of Everyday Millionaires

Timestamps: 10:02–19:26

a. Best Savers = Worst Spenders

• Millionaires get rich not by spending big, but by mostly saying "no."
• Frugality is less about deprivation and more about intentional trade-offs.
• Quote (Len, 10:47):
  “The discipline made me a terrible spender. It was like I was afraid to spend...for me at least, it was a learned behavior.”

b. It’s Not Too Late to Learn

• OG emphasizes past spending mistakes don’t define the future.
• Quote (OG, 11:40):
  “What you’ve done up till this point does not define what the next 10 or 50 years will look like...Just because that’s how you were doesn’t mean that’s how you’re gonna be.”

c. Longevity in Purchases

• Driving cars until they hit 200,000+ miles, not upgrading frequently.
• Maintenance and longevity beat chasing the “latest and greatest.”
• Pro tip (Len, 17:26):
  Avoid buying the first year of a new car generation; get proven models.

d. Daily Saving Decisions

• Drinking coffee at home vs. daily $5 lattes: Small habits compound.
• Splitting restaurant meals/taking leftovers to stretch money.
• Skipping drinks at restaurants to save.
• Being intentional—the “latte factor” only matters if it's a mindless habit, not a real joy.

e. Pay Off High-Interest Debt Early

• Foundational to long-term wealth, regardless of income.

3. Frugality Is Taught & Modeled

Timestamps: 20:10–22:41

• Frugal habits can be learned, not just inherited.
• Joe’s Story (20:22):
  Turning utility bill reduction into a family game; habits passed on through fun, not scolding.
• Doug’s Analogy (21:54):
  Wasting electricity vs. water—both “flow,” both cost you real money.

4. "Little" Everyday Wins Add Up

Timestamps: 22:40–30:10

• Small savings routines, like bringing snacks when traveling, using coupons, or parking farther away, multiply over years.
• Quote (OG, 24:32):
  “Be intentional on the things you’re just okay with. You can afford a thing—just don’t let it bleed into every area.”

5. The Generosity Factor

Timestamps: 30:10–31:07

• Midwest millionaires are frugal for themselves but generous to others—willing to tip generously, donate to causes, or help neighbors.

6. Becoming a Better Saver: Building New Habits

Timestamps: 47:57–56:25

• Track your spending: Often, reality is far from what we imagine.
  • Len’s 30-year spending spreadsheet—insight into long-term trends.
  • Use software or even ChatGPT to analyze expenses (“create me a spending plan”).
• "Face the pain": Most people avoid tracking because they fear the truth, not the math.
• Make it regular: Weekly or monthly money meetings make being mindful a habit and relieve money stress.
• Set bigger goals: Focusing on bigger, motivating goals (like a debt-free vacation) makes “no” easier at the store.
• Quote (Joe, 57:30):
  “When we started thinking about our money goals...the budget began to take care of itself.”

7. Traps & Mindset Shifts

Timestamps: 59:03–61:06

• Avoid sales unless you already need the item.
  • Buying because it’s “on sale” isn’t saving.
• Food delivery apps: A new leak in 2020s-era budgets—costly, often disappointing, easily replaced by a short drive or home cooking.

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Q&A: Financial Basics with Anna & OG

Timestamps: 36:35–47:55

• Clarifying emergency fund calculations: Use gross pay to ensure you’re not double-counting savings.
• Personal risk-adjusted cash needs: It's not “one size fits all”–be realistic about dual income, job stability, and expense flexibility.
  • Entrepreneurs often need a much larger cash cushion.
  • Separate business and personal finances!

Quote (OG, 44:30):
“If the numbers are the numbers, then those are the numbers… There’s a reason for this, it’s what really happens in people’s lives.”

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Listener Mail: How to Find the Right Advisor

Timestamps: 62:06–68:05

• Debbie’s question: How do you find an advisor who wants to look at your whole financial picture, not just invest your lump sum?
• Direct approach:
  • Be crystal clear about what you want (“annual checkup, holistic planning”).
  • If the advisor just wants to sell products or investments, move on.
  • There are specialties in financial planning, like anywhere else—don’t be afraid to keep searching for a match.
• Use referrals thoughtfully: When asking friends, specify the kind of advice/support you’re looking for.

Quote (OG, 64:03):
“There’s a bajillion ways financial professionals work with clients...being straightforward and saying, ‘this is what I’m looking for’ will help a bunch.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Frugality:
  “Midwestern millionaires are the last people to spend money on themselves, but first to spend on others. They'll reuse a Ziploc bag 20 times but generously tip the neighborhood kid for shoveling snow.” (Joe, 30:10)
• On Learning New Habits:
  “What you’ve done up till this point does not define what the next 10 years…will look like…Just because that’s how you were doesn’t mean that’s how you’re gonna be.” (OG, 11:40)
• On Facing Spending Truths:
  “The reason people don’t [track expenses] is why? Because they don’t want to know the truth.” (Doug, 54:15)

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Practical Steps for Building Real Wealth (From Episode Takeaways)

1. Track—don’t just guess—where your money is going.
   • Spend time setting up a spreadsheet or use a budgeting/vault app.
   • Review and discuss with your partner, even if it’s only 20 minutes a week/month.
2. Set clear goals that excite you.
   • A big trip or financial freedom makes passing up smaller splurges easier.
3. Automate saving and limit access to spending cash.
   • “Systems” beat willpower every time.
4. Question every expense—does it bring joy or is it just habit?
   • Replace “I deserve it” with “Does this get me closer to my goal?”
5. Be willing to be frugal on yourself, generous to others.
   • Tip the pizza kid, give to your causes, but don’t let FOMO drive your personal spending.
6. When seeking financial help, ask directly if an advisor provides planning or just investment advice. Don’t settle for less.

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Midwest Millionaire Setup: 01:04–09:25
• Main Discussion—Millionaire Habits: 09:25–31:07
• Small Savings & Frugal Habits: 22:23–30:10
• Financial Basics Q&A (with Anna & OG): 36:35–47:55
• How to Become a Better Saver (habits/disciplines): 47:57–61:06
• Listener Question—Finding the Right Advisor: 62:06–68:05

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The Stacking Benjamins Spirit

Throughout the episode, “fun and functional” rules the day: plenty of Midwest humor, dad jokes, and the recurring theme that good wealth habits are for real people—imperfect, busy, and sometimes hungry for takeout. It’s about doing the basics, a little at a time, and finding a process that works for your life.

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For More Info

• Stacking Benjamins Show Notes + Links
• Len Penzo’s Blog
• OG’s Firm Scorecard
• Submit a question

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Share this episode with someone who wants to build wealth by doing the little things right—wherever they live, and whatever they earn!

Transcript

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[Joe]

You know I would be ready for our Monday salute, guys, but I don't have a drink with me. And I felt so awful all day behind the scenes that if I did have a drink with me, it might not end well.

[Doug]

Be Pepto Bismol. You should be hoisting your pink Pepto Bismol drink.

[Joe]

I 100% should, but we're going to make it through the podcast because we've got. Because we got Len here. Len, you ready? You got your drink?

[Len Penzo]

I've got my. I've got my drink right here.

[Joe]

You're drinking for two today.

[Len Penzo]

I'm drinking for two. Yes, I'll drink for you. Here's to you, sir. I'll try not to say anything that'll make you queasy either.

[Doug]

Here's to you. Upset stomach, man.

[Joe]

On behalf of the men and women making podcasts in mom's basement and the men and women all over the world stacking Benjamins with us today, big salute out to our troops who are working double, triple, quadruple overtime right now. Thanks for all you do. Let's go stack some Benjamin together now, shall we?

[Doug]

Thanks, everybody.

[OG]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a big show, a real big shoe.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and how would you like to invest like a Midwest millionaire? One publication dives into some everyday millionaire traits that you can use no matter where you live. We'll help you mine more stacks of gold on today's show. Plus, we'll answer a question from Debbie, who thought, you know, I'd better call Saul, see? Hi. And Og, she's struggling to hire the right financial advisor and wants to know how to find one who can help with a specific problem. How do you narrow the field? We'll help you with that, too, Debbie. Of course. OG and Anna are back talking financial basic training. And we can't let you go home without a bag full of some of my amazing trivia. And best yet, it's all free. Totally free. And now three guys who were all free this morning to help you climb the hill of the better money habits. It's Joe, OG and Len.

[Joe]

And how would you like to be a Midwest billionaire? You know, work hard, save diligently, spend wisely, create a life built on discipline instead of extravagance. Those Midwest values. And a guy who we think of every time we see Talk Midwest values is here. Mr. OG how are you, man?

[OG]

That's me, Mr. Midwest.

[Joe]

A life built on discipline rather than spending. Mr. Mr. OG and actually, we're going to talk about how you created some systems to make sure that you were able to keep on keeping on like I had to, but a guy who we actually do think of when we think about work hard, save diligently, spend wisely. Mr. Len Penzo is here today. How are you, brother?

[Len Penzo]

I'm fantastic. It's springtime. I mean, I'm super excited. You know what? I'm so excited, I actually wet my plants.

[Joe]

Do we. Do we got it. Where's the. Oh, wait a minute. Hold on.

[Len Penzo]

Thank you.

[Joe]

There it is. God, we missed you.

[Len Penzo]

Faster on the. You got to have that thing ready, man, when the opening starts. You know, something corny is coming out of my.

[Joe]

When Len is here, I got to have that on speed dial. It's going to be Len, Doug, OG and I today. Today. Helping you become a millionaire. It's going to be fantastic. Today's show, by the way, guys, brought to you by the letter M. M for millionaire. M for money. M for Monday. M probably by the time you're done with this. M for margaritas. It's also sponsored by the cool upgrade we announced last week. If you missed last week, our retirement plan movie event. Man, that was fun. Not as fun as we're gonna have today with Len, but pretty fun. We're working with the team at array and now a budget. Simple. Who help millions of people like you. Put your money in the vault. Stackybenjamins.com vault. They call it the vault. Not only does it lock down your identity, put a wall between you and those lists where they sell your info, dump out unwanted subscription to protect your Credit the vault very soon because a budget simple is going to be and this was the big, this was the big news that you missed. But you got it now is a net worth tracker and a budget tracker. How about that? You can keep your budget.

[Doug]

And Joe, why do people know that they can trust it?

[Joe]

Because it's not built by Doug.

[Doug]

Because it was not built by me.

[Joe]

Because we actually rather than going out in the back yard like some friends of ours have and build their own app, we're like, nope. We want to work with people that work with banks, with credit unions. We're so happy to call attention to the product. The vault super sleek. It's a one stop Swiss army knife built by pros stacking benjamin.com vault all right, we've got a great show today. We're talking about how to become what one piece called a Midwest millionaire. But guess what? You can be anywhere in the world and use these tips and you'll get it. But Len, OG and I, we're going to dive into it after we hear a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on and then let's become a millionaire. In business, there is no room for guesswork. Every shipment matters. Every deadline counts. And when you're trying to keep operations running smoothly, the last thing you need is uncertainty. That's why reliability is at the core of USPS Ground Advantage. From the moment your package is first scanned in, it moves through a secure nationwide network, aiding in a timely and accurate delivery. You get near real time tracking so you can keep up with your shipments. And with affordable upfront pricing, there are no hidden fees or surprise surcharges to throw off your cost sheets. It all adds up to predictable deliveries you can depend on because knowing your logistics are handled lets you focus on everything else. Your customers, your team and the future you're building. Visit USPS.com ground advantage to start shipping with confidence. USPS ground advantage. We mean business. Well, it's the middle of the week. You know how this goes. You're tired, you're hungry and you think, man, I should go out to dinner. But it isn't because of anything healthy. You're not thinking about having a healthy meal yet. Tomorrow we'll thank you if you do have a home cooked healthy meal, which even as I say it sounds so, so, so much better. With HelloFresh. Savoring new flavors from around the world isn't just delicious. It's simple and it's wholesome and it's super easy. It makes cooking effortless. You can always look forward to a homemade meal. No two meals are the same. You can choose from 80 plus global recipes every month, including Vietnamese, Moroccan, Caribbean and more. I shouldn't be doing this while I'm hungry. This is not the thing for me to be recording right now. Try unique ingredients like lemongrass, gocha jang. It says here. I don't even know what gochujang is, but I'm starving. Sounds good. And curry paste. Oh, that's good. All pre portioned for you. Cravings shouldn't wait for takeout. Get international ingredients sent straight to you. So dinner is always the destination. I've been using hellofresh. I think you're gonna absolutely love it. Go to hellofresh right now stackers and listen to this. If you go to hellofresh.com sb10fm, that is get 10 free meals. Hellofresh.com sb10FM. You'll get 10 free meals plus free NutriBullet Ultra plus plus a two in one compact kitchen system. That's 189.99 value on your third box. Free meal supplied is a discount on the first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. Disclaimer must order the third box by May 31, 2026. Hello fresh. Nothing hits like home cooking.

[OG]

Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show. Our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

[Joe]

Our headline today is inspired by a piece from Kiplinger which is called we have food at home. We're not going out to eat. We have food at home.

[OG]

Did you guys see that? There's a reel about that. And the mom is pulling up at Starbucks and the kid from the backseat goes, can I have a cookie? She goes, no, we have cookies at home. And the daughter, without missing a beat at three years old, goes, we have coffee at home. She just leans back in and she goes, and a cookie on her order. The mouths of babes, man, they can see right through your bs.

[Joe]

Touche. Absolutely. The Midwest millionaire mentality that's built a fortune. And Joe Schmidt, a CFP ChFC. Joe writes, if you're a lifelong saver, a coupon killer, or a diy, or someone who still hears your parents voices saying, we're not stopping for dinner, we food at home. You might be part of a very special club. The group that they call Midwestern millionaires. They have some traits. And after studying more than a thousand of these people, they found four that bubbled to the top. Guys. And I thought we'd talk about these. Number one is the best savers are the worst. Spenders, most Midwest or millionaires didn't get there by chasing the latest and greatest investment or making millions of dollars a year. They got there through discipline, which is interesting. Len, would you say that that was how you got there?

[Len Penzo]

Yes, through discipline. And the spending part is true too, because I'll tell you what, man, it is. Especially when I was younger, I guess the discipline made me a terrible spender. It was like I was afraid to spend. So, I mean, I totally agree with this. It really takes training to learn how to spend. Once you've. Once you've gotten over the hard part of saving the money and you have the money, it's a learned for. For me at least it was a learned. A learned. What's the word?

[Joe]

A learned habit behavior.

[Len Penzo]

A learned behavior, yes, learned behavior. It really was.

[Joe]

We're going to dive into that piece specifically, like what tactics you can use to become a better saver or somebody who maybe fear spending a little bit. And I want to examine that phrase as well, and in a second. But, oh, gee, I think the cool thing here is you can learn it. It is learnable. Even if you're like, no, man, I'm the worst spender. You're not necessarily out of the game.

[OG]

Well, I mean, I'm the world's worst spender. So I figured it out. But when it comes to trying to reset all this, and I think that's really the biggest thing here, what you've done up till this point does not define what the next 10 years or 15 years or 50 years is going to look like. All of that is just a lesson. It's all learning. It's all stuff that you can draw from in the past. Some of it's going to be things that you look at and go, yeah, that was pretty good. I should do more of that. And some of it's going to be like, yeah, I probably should never do that again. It's kind of like parenting. I've always thought that parenting, your sole job when you're a parent is to think back and be honest and look back at all the things your parents did really well and go, yeah, I should do that. And then the stuff that your parents did that in retrospect is really bad. Be like, eh, probably not gonna do any of that. And if every generation we just did like just a smidge, you know, kept the good stuff and tried to improve a little bit, we'll have superstars a couple generations away. Use your prior history as a lesson and keep the good stuff and dump the old stuff. But just because that's how you were doesn't mean that's how you're gonna be.

[Joe]

Yeah. The past does not equal the future.

[OG]

That's right.

[Joe]

Every day you wake up and you can chart a new path for yourself. He's got a few things that people do, and a couple of these are pretty big. Driving cars until they cross 200, 000 miles. We've got two cars. One is really new. OG flunks that one. But it's interesting because between the three of us, I feel like we hit some of these and we don't hit other ones. Driving cars until they cross 200, 000 miles. Something. I've got one that's over 200, 000 miles. I've got another one that's new. Len, where do you stand on that one?

[Len Penzo]

Well, you know what? As maybe as the old guy, the really old guy here, I'll say my driving has actually gone down since I've retired, so I. I don't get to that. That's. They take the 200,000. But when I was younger, yes, my first car, I put 350, 000 miles on my first car.

[Joe]

Nice job.

[Len Penzo]

And it. Yeah, it was a pretty impressive. I had it 12 years from 16 to 28, 350, 000 miles on that thing. And it was awesome. I had no want for a new car at all. And that's great. Now my current car is 13 years old and it has 78,000 miles. I think last year only put 2,000 miles on it. But I intend on keeping that car probably another eight or 10 years.

[OG]

Well, the big difference, you know, not to play the age card a little bit, but the big difference years ago. And, you know, same thing when I was a kid too, a lot of stuff was diy, right. Like if something was broken, you could shop the part. You had the skill set or the tools or whatever to do it. Now with so much technology in there, I don't like the mileage as being some sort of threshold. I think time is a great one. Or you just have to evaluate at some point in time, the annual repair bill on your vehicle is going to exceed the value of the car. You know, that's a tough judgment call at that point in time to say, do I want to put 5,000 bucks in maintenance into this $4,000 vehicle that's 15 years old? Maybe I do and it runs for the next five years. Or maybe I do and it runs for the next five months and now I've got another $5,000 bill or something like that versus redeploying that elsewhere. So I don't like the mileage thing. That's why I was thumbs downing it. Not the time. Not driving cars for a while. We beat the heck out of cars at our house. And I'm like you, Len, my car is five years old, has 30,000 miles on it.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, well, I just want to pile on to what OG just said is basically that was my decision point too. When it comes time for new cars, it was always is, are we. Am I at the point where the maintenance is costing me more than if I just buy a new car up front and get rid of that? So yes, that was always my decision point as well. That that's the trigger.

[Joe]

When we finally changed that game to be old car family. I remember we paid off the initial loan and then it became a game. How long can we pay ourselves the loan amount every month into our next car fund until the car died and we needed the new one. We pile on a lot of mileage on our cars because of the fact on one car. Because we have family all over the United States, we like to road trip when we go on some vacations. So our cars do heavy duty mileage. Like it's not beyond us having 40,000 miles in one year on our car will do 35, 40,000 miles. So that's why we generally. To your point, OG, we have one new car that's going to make the road trips and then we have the other car that's sitting at 265,000 miles. It's a 2000.

[OG]

Just needs to be able to go get pizza.

[Joe]

That's it.

[OG]

That's it.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[OG]

Literally, the grocery getter.

[Joe]

That car will never go outside Texarkana because it will be on the edge of the freeway. Like, there's no way that thing is

[OG]

going to literally put it out to

[Joe]

pass a long way. But whenever we're tooling around town, we take that car. Uh, so we, we kind of do half and half. And I also like this idea of maintenance or time. And it's also, guys, another thing that, you know, you see all the pros say a lot of the key of your car process to either get the mileage, keep the maintenance low. That's done by doing the research up front by buying the right car. Like, I feel like a lot of time we're looking at just the sticker price today, but we're not looking at the history of this type of car and what type of, what type of problems that car's had in the past. It might make more sense to go with a car that cost a little more up front, but you're going to be able to drive OG for a long time so that you don't have that, that problem, you know, where all of a sudden you've got so much maintenance going on that it's time for a new car. I'm thinking about friends of mine, by the way, back in the older days of older Jaguars where they used to joke about people would say my Jaguars got 100,000 miles, but that's the, that's the vertical miles, not the horizontal miles because it's gone up and down on lifts so many times.

[Doug]

Oh yeah, I thought you say miles to the repair shop and back.

[Joe]

Yeah, no miles, horizontal miles, up and down.

[Len Penzo]

Here's a quick tip on if you're going to buy a new car, don't buy a car with a new in a new generation. You know, when they, you know, cars will have new generations every six, seven years.

[Joe]

Oh yeah, because you don't know the track record.

[Len Penzo]

Exactly. So you always want to get the older generation that has the track record and proven they fixed any bugs that came out of that. And I just want to real quickly share because I have a buddy right now who just bought a new, new Audi. I think it's an Audi 5, a brand new generation this year. He just bought the car and he is having a problem with, he's having lots of problems with it actually. But the, one of the most annoying ones is, you know, on your side mirror you have a little light there that tells you when there's a car kind of in your blind spot, that thing's going on and off totally unpredictably and he can't rely on it. And they are having a bear of a time trying to solve that problem and fix it. He has 800 miles on that car since he's bought it And I swear 600 of it has gone. Is just going back and forth to the dealer trying to get that problem fixed. So that's. Don't ever buy a new generation vehicle. Let, let them work the bugs out and get, you know, a year later or two years after that.

[Joe]

Two more on here. Just briefly brewing coffee at home. We, we chat about that earlier because $5 lattes don't compound well. However, that said, I have a latte out once in a while and it's pretty fun when I do it.

[OG]

This is the thing I hate the absolute most about this. This type of content is such horse patootie. Like it's the same thing as David Box like latte factor. I understand math and I get how if you said well $5 coffee it turns into like $500,000 in 50 years. It's like yes or your life sucks and you never have a friggin Starbucks ever.

[Joe]

I think the difference here is what this guy's talking about though with these values OG is it's value space spending. If I'm really going to enjoy the latte, it's great. But if my ritual daily that I really don't care about is I stop at Starbucks on the way to work and I grab my coffee versus the coffee they have at work which I'm not opposed to. Like why? If I don't care about it, it's

[OG]

just lazy writing midwest values to like I don't think so brew your coffee at home.

[Joe]

I think I'm skipping around and you're so your co host is lazy. That's what's going on. The third piece on here, pay off high interest loans early. Refuse to.

[OG]

That I totally disagree with also.

[Joe]

I'm just kidding. You gotta build up his.

[OG]

How are you supposed to pay off your debt if you don't have any?

[Joe]

That's right Len. On the April Fool's Day episode we did a piece about how Americans are amassing more debt than ever. So if you're not amassing debt quickly, you're falling behind.

[Len Penzo]

Wait a minute, wait, wait. I, I heard that, that, that was April Fool's episode. That wasn't the real and I was already following.

[Joe]

I went out and opened up a bunch of new credit cards.

[Len Penzo]

Now, now you've told me. Thanks a lot Joe.

[Joe]

The second piece he says is their frugality is a skill learned young. And as we talked about earlier, you're not always going to be frugal. I wasn't born into frugal family. Oh gee, I know you weren't born into a particularly frugal family. I don't know about your family, Len.

[OG]

Are you kidding? Of course I was.

[Joe]

But what makes this fun for me was doing some of these frugal activities as a parent with my kids to help my, my kids have more values based spending. I remember coming home from work one day, all the lights are on in my house. We have three TVs in our house, they're all on and nobody is inside my house. Everybody's in the backyard and I'm like what is going on? So we actually took out some like just old fashioned graph paper and made this graph about the utility Bill. And then I. I made some fun. I gamified it because I could either yell about it, which, you know, then nobody would do anything or turn into a game. So I turned into this game where if we. I don't remember the numbers anymore because it was so long ago, but if we kept the utility bill under X, then we'd have a pizza night, you know, and it was so funny. I'm watching a Detroit Lions game one night, and I walk out of the room, and I walk back out with a glass of water. I went to get a glass of water. My daughter has turned off the TV and the light, and she's like, dad, you left the room. What are you doing? To have my daughter bitch at me about. About turning off the TV and turning off the light versus the other way around. Pretty damn fun.

[Doug]

I never used to turn lights off going in and out of rooms, but it dawned on me recently. This is part of, you know, becoming one of the, like old man yells at clouds. And then you saw the light get off.

[Joe]

And then you saw the light about this.

[Doug]

Well, yeah, I did. Okay, I'll let you have that, Joe. Fine. If there was a faucet that was just slowly trickling, you would absolutely step in the bathroom or in the kitchen and turn it off. Right. It was like, oh, that shouldn't be doing that. Electricity is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't somehow feel the same or look the same, but it's. It flows. Electricity flows. And that's still. It's the same from a money standpoint. And I don't know why it took me so long. Like, that should make sense to everybody, no matter what your age.

[Joe]

It's fun.

[Len Penzo]

It should, but it doesn't. I know my daughter still leaves her bedroom lights on constantly. Just constantly. I'm always going in there, turning that light off. It's just drives me up the wall.

[Doug]

It's not the big money. It's not where you're going to get the big chunks of money, but it still just makes sense. Like, do stuff that makes sense.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And that's where number three comes in. The art of just little savings every day. Like, restaurant meals are so big now. Number one on here is split a meal and take the leftovers home. Or get separate meals and make it two meals, which I have trouble with, by the way.

[Len Penzo]

Me too.

[Joe]

I will intend to take half of it home and I will walk out. What's that bit? I don't stop eating when I'm full. I stop eating when I'm Ashamed of myself. Like, that's. That's the. That's the thing. But when you go out to eat,

[OG]

we're unpacking a lot of. A lot of interesting things here today. Joe, peeling the curtain back.

[Joe]

Yeah, OG's gonna love all these. These are like 50 cent things. OG.

[OG]

Well, so on the food stuff, it's interesting because I had this observation the other day. I was listening to a dad talk to another dad at a baseball game. I think it was actually like a grandpa talking to a dad. You know, grandpa was there watching the baseball game, too, and he was talking about how he took his kids or grandkids to McDonald's. And it was $90 for McDonald's. And I was thinking about that. It just kind of hit me. I was like, that's like really close to a hundred bucks for McDonald's. That seems pretty foolish. And then I was like, but we would spend 80 bucks on takeout Mexican food or something like that. I think being intentional, and maybe this is what you're getting to, Joe, is being intentional on the things that you're gonna just be okay with. And if you're just okay with the coffee thing, then just be okay with that. But don't be flippant with everything. Just go, yeah, our thing is we go out for Tex Mex on Friday nights and it is what it is, and we get a couple Margies, and that's just what we do. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that, you know, being fine. But don't let that bleed over into every other layer of your life. Just be. Just be a little aware.

[Joe]

Yeah, there's some of these that he's listed that I roll my eyes at because I wouldn't do them. And there are others that I do, but that's a judgment call on my part that maybe I need to think more about these, because listen to these different ones. And some of these you guys are going to roll your eyes at, and other ones you're going to go, oh, yeah, that makes sense to me. Drinking water while eating out because paying $3 for soda just feels wrong. My whole family gets water. I never get water. I never ever get water.

[OG]

Yeah, nobody in my family drinks soda ever. So.

[Joe]

So you guys are.

[OG]

So everyone drinks water all the time. So I have plenty of money left over for beers.

[Joe]

Said, that's perfect.

[Len Penzo]

You.

[Joe]

You recoup it.

[OG]

It's at least two tall boys, Buffalo wild wings for me.

[Joe]

Eating only with coupons and gift cards are during happy hour. We'll go during happy hour, we will look online like, I'll join every club and I send it to a spam email. I'll go into the spam email and look and see if there's some. And there usually is for the place we want to go. I don't choose places, though, based on a coupon. I kind of meet that halfway. Taking snacks to the airport when traveling to avoid paying airport prices. I just eat before I go to the airport. Yes, don't eat at the airport. And then when you travel as much as we do now, I do the bougie thing, which I probably shouldn't even bring up. But now you go to the lounge, right?

[OG]

Well, you don't pay to go to the lounge. The lounge is included with your status or credit card or something like that. The only thing I will buy at the airport is I always buy a bottle of water. I'll drink. It's weird. I'll drink coffee on an airplane, which I know people are like, what is wrong with you? Yeah, they're like, can I get you something? I'm like, I have a glass of coffee. And they're like, yeah, you. Okay, hold on, we got one.

[Joe]

You know, somebody clear the nuclear waste out of the bottom of the.

[OG]

But I won't drink water on an airplane because for some reason, like, cooking it at 190 degrees feels safer to me.

[Joe]

It's science, it's math. It's 100% science. Any of these speaking to you, Len?

[Len Penzo]

Well, the one I don't understand is going to a restaurant and then not paying the $3 for a soda, assuming you want a soda just because it feels wrong. I mean, if you're gonna go out, go out, you know, commit and enjoy the decision to go out and eat. Don't try and cut corners once you're there. Just either go and enjoy yourself or. And not worry about it. Or don't go.

[Joe]

Yeah, we cut corners by eating at restaurants less.

[Len Penzo]

Exactly.

[Joe]

And I feel better when I eat at restaurants less.

[Len Penzo]

But dive in. If money's a problem, don't go in the first place or go to someplace cheaper. That's the one that really gets me.

[OG]

We know the guy that gets the 22 ounce diet Pepsi every time he goes out, huh?

[Len Penzo]

Well, you know what? That's how they make their money a lot of times is on the sodas. They'll say, yeah, you know, you got a. We got 99 cent tacos, but you got to buy a. At least a soda. Or, you know, just $6. You know, they make it up that way. But still, that being said, I. If I'm at a restaurant, I don't look at the cost of the items is crazy.

[Joe]

There was for a while a great comic strip called Bloom County. Doug, you remember Bloom County?

[Doug]

Absolutely.

[Joe]

Opus the Penguin goes to one of the discount movie theaters. He pays, like, $2.50 for his ticket into the theater, and he's like, what a value. And then he walks into the concession stand and gets a Coke, some M&Ms, and a thing of popcorn, and it's 37.50. And he looks out at the viewer of the comic strip, and he's like, I love discount movie theaters. It's so fr.

[Len Penzo]

Hey, my daughter just went to the opening day. She told me her and her friend got two sodas and two garlic fries. You want to guess what that cost

[OG]

them at the Dodgers? Two sodas, two garlic fries.

[Joe]

45 bucks.

[OG]

I'd say that is at least $57.

[Len Penzo]

More.

[Joe]

More.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe]

$57.

[Len Penzo]

$52. $52.

[OG]

Remember that time, Joe, that we won those. I won those tickets. And we went to the Rangers.

[Joe]

Yes. We sat, like, it, like, right up front because of the charity auction. That was awesome.

[OG]

We were in RO10 or something, right behind the catcher. The first inning, it was like, 14 to 1. Rangers. So, you know, they shut the alcohol sales down after inning seven. We never made it to inning seven because. Because we were like, oh, two beers. Two beers. Two beers. And then the corporate bill came, and I was like, dude, what did you spend $7.50 on every 22 minutes last Saturday? Like, for, like, three hours? Like, what is going on? All right, we got hacked. And then we're like, oh, that was the baseball game.

[Joe]

They say don't go to the grocery store when you're hungry. Don't get the first stadium beer without having the hot dog first. Yeah, because we had that first one, and our brain was hacked. We're like, oh, this is great.

[OG]

This is. Boy, this went down easy.

[Joe]

A hot day at the old stadium. Ballpark at Arlington, where you're roasting in the sun. The last one on here, walking rather than paying for parking even in freezing temperatures. I do that every time. And I know og, I think it's where you and I are different. I think you'll go the premium parking. I always park far away. I'm like, I need the steps anyway. That's the way I always look at it. I need the steps, so I'm gonna walk.

[OG]

I really despise going places that require me to interact with people. Generally, so. So if I do go to the mall or something, you know, crazy like that, I will actually park far away. Mostly because I don't like playing the game of, like, waiting in line. You know, you're waiting, there's like, one person walking, and then there's a car in front of you, and that person's sitting there and you're like, what are you doing? And they're hoping that that person's walking to, like, position A. And then they pat. And then, you know, I just park and go.

[Joe]

You're in the mall already. You're half done shopping by the time they park.

[OG]

Costco's a great example. It's Chaos Factory over there. I will park in the first spot I see. Done.

[Len Penzo]

Me too. That's. I'm the same way.

[OG]

Yep. Then you don't get door dings.

[Joe]

Last one here is they're frugal, but they're also generous when it counts. And I found that too.

[Len Penzo]

Yes.

[Joe]

Is that they are generous when accounts the heartwarming contrast. Midwestern millionaires are the last people to spend money on themselves, but the first ones to spend money on others. They'll reuse a Ziploc bag 20 times, but generously tip the neighborhood kid for shoveling snow. They'll stretch leftovers for three days, but donate to their church, community group, and causes they believe in. It's pretty neat. I found this to be an interesting piece if you're somebody that's not built frugally. During the second half of today's show, not only are we going to have the goodness that is Og and Anna, but Len and Og and I'll be back to chat about what are some ways to train yourself to be a better saver. So we're going to do that next. But right now, Doug, you're going to help people impress all their friends around the water cooler. Or they can brag on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever the thing is to all their friends. Let's see if they can get today's

[Doug]

trivia right with my totally accurate 100 true trivia. That's right. Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and on today's date, way back in 648 BC, a guy looked up and saw the sun disappearing, and because he was near Athens, coined the phrase, well, this is all Greek to me. While that is a 100% true story. So is this. That old Jimmy the Greek guy had just recorded a solar eclipse on his iPhone 2 the first time anyone had ever done so at least the recording writing it down part. If you're not familiar with an eclipse, the same safety rules apply when Len removes his hat. Never look directly at it.

[Len Penzo]

Guilty.

[Doug]

While the sun may be hidden from us by that old crafty planet we're standing on, today, we'll ask you a question based on one Debbie is about to ask about financial advisors. If a financial advisor is hiding information from you that could help you make the right decision, that means they aren't a what? What's the term for someone who will tell you all the info they feel you need to make a great decision? I'll be back right after I go make the right decision about Joe's mom's apple pie. I think it's time to say yes.

[Joe]

Okay, this is the system I've been telling everybody about because I had never heard of what I'm about to tell you about until they asked if they could sponsor Stacking Benjamins. And so I tried them out and not only do I love it and I use it all the time, but I talk about it non stop. Because whenever I send anybody meeting notes, I'm like, how badass are these? Check these out. It's called granola. And if you're in back to back meetings all day, you already know what the struggle is. You're not along, you're trying to stay present, but in the back of your mind, you're secretly stress scrolling your memory for what they just said because you were so plugged into what was coming next or what's the follow up or what. Meetings are a massive. Granola fixes all of that. Granola is an a powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. You just take rough notes like you normally would. You can even see it expanding on your notes and taking its own notes as you go. Because in the background, granola is securely transcribing the meeting. Then at the end, it turns everything into clean, structured, and actually useful notes when the meeting ends. And the best part, it works through your device's audio so it integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools you're already using. There's no setup, no awkward bots. You don't have to make it connect. It's just normal meetings with superpowers. Now you can actually listen instead of frantically typing every word. Still walk away knowing exactly what was decided, who's doing what, what comes next. I'm telling you, it'll help you focus on what's important. It leaves the rest out. It's Fantastic. So if meetings are eating up your day or you're not having these productive meetings that you think you should be having and people don't know what the to do list is at the end and what the big points are, Granola is a no brainer. You can try it totally free by heading to Granola AI sb. Go to Granola AI SB and get your time back. Once again, try it for free. Granola AI SB

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[Joe]

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[Doug]

Hey there stackers. I'm apple pie and cheddar lover. Try it. You won't be sorry. And guy not too proud to ask for seconds. Joe's mom's neighbor Doug it was on today's date in history that the first Greek recording of a solar eclipse happened. Which means not only did the sun disappear momentarily, but someone had the level headedness to say, hey, let's write this down. Well, if there are written down facts that your advisor quote, forgets to tell you because they're hiding material information, that means they ain't a fiduciary. That's the word you're looking for when hiring a good advisor, but it's not as easy as you'd hope. Well, we'll let Joe, Og and Len cover that next, right after we hear from OG and cfp Anna Alum hey guys, what's up?

[OG]

Welcome back Anna A squared hey Josh, what's up? You and I were getting ready for this week's episode. We were jotting some ideas down and thinking through kind of our framework of building out financial plans and working through what was next on the agenda. And we Ended up with some questions from people about the previous two weeks. So we talked about emergency funds, we talked about calculating your expenses, and we were going to kind of dive into investing, But I think we're going to punt on the investing thing till next week and tackle some of these questions that we got, because I think they're pretty good questions. As a matter of fact, I have a couple. You have a couple, and we're just going to kind of rapid fire them at one another. Do you want me to go first or do you want to go first?

[Anna A Squared]

Hit me with it.

[OG]

All right, so here's the first one this came from. And by the way, these are questions that came to us. We reached back out and said, is it cool that we share this? And everybody said this was okay. So the first one here is from Marcus, and he is here in Texas, as a matter of fact, and he says, okay, I tried the five column thing. So that is talking about what we talked about in episode two, building out your expenses and putting them in five different categories to make it super simple of income taxes, debt, savings, lifestyle expenses. Those are the five columns. So he says, I tried out the five column thing and I'm stuck on where to put my 401 contribution. Is that savings or does it even come out before I even start? When I look at my paycheck, it's already taken out. So I don't know if I'm double counting.

[Anna A Squared]

It's a little bit confusing there. I understand that we want to put the 401 into the savings category, and at the same time, we want to make sure that the number you're using for income is your gross number. So it should list out what your gross income is for that pay period.

[OG]

Okay.

[Anna A Squared]

And the 401k contributions will be just like your taxes, just like your medical premiums, just like anything else, it's going to be into these other different categories on your pay stub. Separately.

[OG]

Got it. So this is just net paycheck versus gross paycheck. I mean, to be fair, a lot of times we think about how much money we take home, right? You think about your paycheck. You don't think, I make 100,000, but I live on 80. You just go, My paycheck's 7,000amonth. That's the number that's in your brain because that's what you're spending. And so what we're saying is start with the hundred to get a real calculation here, start with 100. Back out the 20 that you're saving in your 401 or whatever as a savings number. A, that's really what's happening, and B, it accurately is showing, you know, then those five, those four buckets will add up to the fifth one, basically.

[Anna A Squared]

Yep, exactly.

[OG]

I like it. Your turn. Pick one.

[Anna A Squared]

Okay, we got Tom H. From Chicago. He's talking about the risk based approach.

[OG]

Okay.

[Anna A Squared]

When we do the calculation for our emergency fund, and he's saying, isn't this just telling anxious people to keep more in cash and telling relaxed people to keep less in cash, and it's just kind of validating their own opinions about what they wanted in cash previous to even taking the quiz?

[OG]

I mean, ultimately. So his question is, you know, is this just all behavioral anyway? I think some of it really is. I think especially the last section around your expense flexibility, like, how rigid is your expenses? You could look at it and say, I mean, yeah, I could totally cut half my lifestyle if I needed to, you think? And I think that that's a little too optimistic in reality. Unless your budget is really full of a bunch of discretionary stuff, which it could be, but for most people that we talk to, yeah, there's some discretionary things, but there's just not a lot. And so using that expense number that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, plus your debt is a fair representation of really what it is to run your life. And if you want to adjust it a little bit, like, okay, there's a little fudge factor, but there's probably not as much as you would hope. I would say that like you talked about a couple of weeks ago, also the behavioral side of this, on the other side of it is it's already a stressful time. If you're dipping into your emergency fund, if you're using this because you're laid off or because you change jobs or whatever the case may be, it's already gonna be a little chaotic in your life. Do you also wanna be stressed about, you know, sitting down and trying to remember all those subscriptions that you need to cancel now because you don't have your job? And really, are you gonna cancel enough subscriptions to, like, have that be a meaningful impact anyway? Like, what are we talking about? You extended your emergency fund by four days.

[Anna A Squared]

Yeah. And it also takes work to figure that out today.

[OG]

Spend your energy on trying to get a new job. So I think there's a little bit of fudge factor on the fourth column. So the three columns were. Or the four categories, I should say were. Is your income dual or single? So you're Going to add some.

[Anna A Squared]

You can't really lie on that one.

[OG]

Yeah, that one is what it is. How flexible is your comp? Like do you have total base comp or is it variable? Again, not much fudging going on there. Like if your salary is your salary or if you get like 160k salary and $300,000 bonus every year and you're spending, you know that that's a, that's a big number. You know, it's highly variable. The re employment risk. I think maybe you could fudge factor that a little bit, I suppose. But you know, again it's 0, 1 or 2, so it's not going to affect it a bunch. And then the last one is expense flexibility. So I think, I think there's a little bit. But honestly, this is why we do it this way because financial planning is meant to be personal. And so if his neighbor is nervous Nelly, it goes, yeah, I think I should have 11 months or 11 next my expenses then. Okay, that makes sense.

[Anna A Squared]

Maybe he sleeps at night a little bit better just having that and that's okay.

[OG]

Kind of my point. Okay, let's go with Priya in Seattle. Love Seattle.

[Len Penzo]

Hey, Priya.

[OG]

Beautiful part of the country. Same thing about the framework here. So I actually ran the numbers using your framework. We're dual income, both W2 jobs, both stable and so we scored a 3 on your scale base plus 1 point for employment risk. My husband is a pretty specialized engineering role. We have been keeping six months. Turns out we need four, so it was a three plus one. So they came to a four. They were zero on everything else. I just moved the 14K into our brokerage account. Is that exactly what I should do? Did I do it right?

[Anna A Squared]

Well, I wouldn't say specifically the brokerage account. Like we don't need to hone in on that. Absolutely. We can save that extra 14k. Where that goes depends on the entire picture of where are you guys saving right now. Can you guys do Roth? Can you do backdoor Roth? Can you guys do additional Savings into your 401ks and you can kind of cash flow some loss of paycheck going into the 401k with that extra cash for a little bit. So there's like a couple of different.

[OG]

Yeah, I guess maybe. I mean she said brokerage, but let's just say that she meant I moved it from emergency fund money to long

[Anna A Squared]

term investment to savings. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The best place to do it.

[OG]

That's the way to do it, right?

[Anna A Squared]

Invest it.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[OG]

Have it grow, get it out of there.

[Anna A Squared]

Done, Priya, done.

[OG]

All right, hit me with the last one. We got time for one more.

[Anna A Squared]

Okay. Derek and Camille in Denver, Colorado. They say they're both self employed.

[OG]

Okay.

[Anna A Squared]

They run a small construction company, wife is a freelancer. They scored an 8 on the calculator, which means 11 months of expenses. So they're saying they took that 3 base that we requested, plus the additional 8 that they scored in the quiz. So 11 months. They feel like that's a lot of cash sitting around and doing nothing. Do we really need that much? And what even counts as essential expenses for us? Our business expenses blur into personal ones all the time.

[OG]

Ruh roh Roarge.

[Anna A Squared]

Ruh roh. Derek, get it together.

[OG]

No, no, no. Bad Derek. Don't do that. And this is a common thing when it comes to entrepreneurs, especially small business owners who, you know, have a lifestyle business. Right? Something that is them plus whatever they're doing. The reality is, is that, you know, you need to be separate. You need to run these two things as separate entities. Your business, the construction business, is separate than the freelance business. That's separate from your person. And I get that there's a lot of like, money that's moving between all of three of these institutions. Business, business, personal. But the goal is to, to have them all be separate entities. And so we want to work toward that. So let's just assume that that's the case and we can kind of separate that for a second. And the answer is, yeah, if you're supposed to have 11x, then you need to have 11x. There's a reason for this. It's not based in like, you know, just some arbitrary thing that we created one day. This is based on like, what really happens in people's lives. And because your income is highly variable and because it's highly concentrated in a specific thing, you know, that's why you scored the way you did. And if your business dries up, you still need to put food on the table. You still have to pay for your property taxes, and you're going to be using some money, frankly, to get your business going again. So having that extra cash is totally worthwhile. The other piece I'd add here is some people think, hey, I gotta have this cash sitting there and it's just sitting in my checking account. It's not doing anything. You should have two months. We didn't talk about this, but you should have two months of your money in your checking account at the bank. Like where your expenses come from. That's your day to day driver always have two months there. Just makes it so that there's some stability in terms of payments and, and like it's there. The rest of your money, whether it's 1x, 2x 11x, whatever the number ends up being, that needs to be in a high yield savings account, treasuries, something that's liquid and accessible but is still paying you some interest. And I get that. Hey, 4% is not a bunch of money. Especially if you're saying, you know, this might be $200,000, right? I'm spending $20,000 a month, you're telling me I need 200k sitting in an account that's like, that's an insane amount of money. Yeah, it is. And you're gonna be paid for that stability, that 4. You know that you can get 4% dividends or 4% interest on that, but that allows you the flexibility. And we'll talk more about this on the investing side next week. Good lead in Anna. Perfect tee up to next week. But this is part of the reason why we have this emergency fund first is so it allows you to be aggressive with your investing later. And for people that have listened to the show for a long time, they know OG is all equities all the time. That's the way it works. And there's a reason that we can say that confidently. It's because we've taken care of all your short term needs up front. So yeah, you gotta separate the businesses out. And if the numbers are the numbers, then those are the numbers.

[Anna A Squared]

If the numbers are the numbers, then those are the numbers.

[OG]

Yes, A TM OG don't copy my trademark. Looking at you Spotify. Anywho, some people know, some people don't. It's a sucky situation, but we're fixing it. Anywho, Joe, back to you in the studio.

[Anna A Squared]

Toodles.

[Joe]

Hey, I'm Bob Wheeler and when I'm not talking to people about money, I'm stacking Benjamins. Thank you for another basics segment. Oh gee, good stuff from you and Anna again. I want to get back to this idea of becoming a good saver because really I think it begins with how to train yourself to just not spend money. I feel like our brains on default, at least mine does on default, is throwing money at the problem. I'll just throw money at it. You know what I found when I was having trouble with money was that if I started setting up systems where I was a little bit away from my money, then my brain had to come up with better ideas. And often it was really right in front of me, but my brain was so lazy. It was like, oh, there's money in the checking account. Just go, just go handle it. There's a piece written by our friend Rachel Cruz. Been on the show a few times. Rachel writes how to stop spending money. 17 tips to stay in control. I'll link to all 17 in the show notes, but I think a couple of these are really important. You know, og, when you hire somebody to kind of help you get more organized, the first thing they do is this pain in the ass task. You guys probably did this at work, Glenn. They have you actually write down your time and what you're doing with your time. And I think it's the same thing with money. At least Rachel does, which is begin tracking your spending. Begin seeing, okay, where does my money go? Because I don't know about you, og, but when I would ask people back when I was a financial planner how much money they thought they spent per month, the number they told me was often vastly different from what was really escaping the checking account.

[OG]

Well, I think there's two different ways to look at this. The first way is to consider like, is the spending plan broken or, and, or are you on track for your goals? If you are, then, then there's really not a lot of energy. I don't think you should put into, you know, nickel and diming your spending if you're on track for your on track for your goals. Only if you're not on track do you need to go back and say, okay, like where are some opportunities? And there's two different ways to do that. One is to tighten the spending, obviously. Another way is to earn more money or pay less taxes or whatever kind of affect that net somehow that direction. I don't want people to unnaturally have to do stuff that they are going to rage against the machine on, you know what I mean? It's very easy for us to look at your W2 income. And I think we talked about this two weeks ago, Anna and I did. It's like you can look at your income or your top line. You can take your tax bill out of the equation. It's very simple to find that it's on your tax return. You can take a look at all your debt very easy. Most people have some sort of record of that. And then your savings plan that you do automatically out of your 401k or brokerage savings or whatever. Again, pretty easy to know what those numbers are. And then everything else is your spending and that spending number is the number. If you go into debt every year, then you're spending more than you, than you make. If your cash balance increases, then you're spending a little less. Only if you need to, like, find more money to save. Do I think it's worthwhile to like, literally go and track every single solitary line item.

[Joe]

Yeah, and I'm glad you clarified that because what we don't want to do to your point is to have less life. So we are speaking specifically to those stackers that they're like, I, I need to become somebody that can actually get this savings gene that apparently I wasn't born with. And I think that if you're going to do that, tracking where the money actually goes is going to be that important first step. Because, like, for me, I had no idea how much money we spent at restaurants.

[OG]

I would also add to this, this doesn't have to be a challenging project. You could very easily, let's say that you use a Visa card, Amex card, and your debit card. You could very easily take the last three months of those statements, dump that into ChatGPT, and go create me a spending plan, like, what's going where? Or take the last year, I know American Express, we've used it for 35 years. Amex sends an annual statement every year and goes, this is what you spent your money on. Take that annual statement, say, evaluate this in conjunction with my, you know, tax return and my pay stub. And you know what I mean, like, you can get pretty granular by using other tools versus you having to like, literally sit down with a scratch pad and a calculator.

[Joe]

The frustrating part for me of what you said, though is what Claire said a few weeks ago, talking about stock market maestros and people with their investments is that it's one thing to have an investment policy, statements, another thing to use it. I feel like during my entire career, what I've seen is people that would do the equivalent, whatever the time frame is and go to chat GPT, create me a spending plan and then set over there, goes, oh, yeah, I got that. Yeah. Hey, do you, do you have a spending plan? Yeah, it's sitting right over there.

[OG]

Have. Well, I'm talking about, like getting the info, like if you're, if you're trying to figure out where all the money's going.

[Joe]

But I think this comes down to building then the habit, right? Like for me, I had to have restaurants in my face before I slowed that truck down. I had to go, whoa. And to your point, you can go, where are the Opportunities. Yours was the.

[OG]

What?

[Len Penzo]

The.

[Joe]

The. You got a subscription that's broken.

[OG]

Oh, and I. When I did mine. Yeah. Yeah.

[Len Penzo]

I. I think tracking your spending is one of the most valuable things. I've been doing it for 30. I have a spreadsheet. 30 years of all of our detailed spending. I mean, from the pets to birthdays to where we spent our retail, everything's all laid out. You know what, though? Yeah, but you know what, OG it isn't a lot of time. It really isn't. Like, like Joe said, if you get into a habit, you make it. A habit takes an hour, hour and a half, once a month. You put it in that spreadsheet. And then, you know, the other benefit of that is not only will, you know your income and outcomes going, but it's really cool to. Over time, you can look back. You can look back five years in the past. Hey, how much was I spending on my electricity bill five years ago? How much was I spending on anything? You can look and track trends, and you can see if certain things are getting out of whack. Like, for example, your entertainment bill. Hey, my entertainment bill's kind of been on a steady rise for, you know, several years, and I'm kind of getting. It's kind of outpacing my income, and maybe that's why I'm getting into trouble. You might not notice it in a short term, but if you look back on the long term, you can see problems that you don't normally see. All that information really helps you as you get older and you can look at trends, which is really cool.

[OG]

Great idea, Len. I agree completely. Far be it for me to disagree with anything.

[Doug]

The reason that people don't do that is. Why? Because they don't want to know the truth. Yeah, could be they're not excited about getting a clear picture because they know it's probably bad, and so we avoid all those things. It's a reason you don't want to do taxes because A, it's just math, and B, it puts a lot of sunlight on stuff.

[Joe]

Yeah, it is painful. I remember a time, you know, and I've talked about this publicly before, when. When I owed a huge tax bill. I did exactly the super smart thing way back in the early 1990s. I just didn't file any taxes because that's going to make it go away.

[OG]

You're the gingerbread man. Come at me, bro.

[Joe]

That's right. And then I was like, if I just don't look at it, Doug, to your point, if I don't look at it, maybe something miraculous will happen. Guess what never happens there. It just, it just doesn't happen. I like the fact, Len, you know, if this is really what you need and oh, gee, brought this up earlier, if you don't need it, don't cheapen your life. But if you do need this, I think contemplating this thing because it's really important. That's what I like about the spreadsheet, is that you're actually putting the numbers in and I think there's something tactile and the fact that it's taking you a little bit of time that you're contemplating it. You're. Your unconscious mind kind of gets working on it. If you don't do that and use like, you know, the vault now is going to have a tracker. You're going to have the ability to set up your budget and track your money using the vault. This is why, because I'm not a spreadsheet guy. This is why Cheryl and I have the 20 minute meeting every week so that we can take 20 minutes and think about this so we can spend a little bit of time just sitting with it together. And I'll tell you, not much magic happens in that 20 minutes because we keep it short so that we'll keep doing it. But the magic happens, then our subconscious brain, because we spend 20 minutes on it, deliberately goes crazy.

[Len Penzo]

You know what, Joe the honeybee and I, we do our. We have our meeting monthly, the first of every month. It's about a 20 minute meeting, but I don't do it weekly. But it's the same thing. We, we sit back and we look at our expenses and talk it over and see where we're, you know, on track or, you know, plans and stuff. So, yeah, that's very helpful. That's something everybody should do, really should. And once you get in the habit of it, you really hate to miss those meetings. Yeah, it's addicting, actually. It becomes addicting.

[Joe]

Ours become really, really fun. And when we miss it, we, we know we missed it.

[OG]

Y.

[Joe]

The reason we do it weekly is if we did it monthly, we wouldn't do it. We just. I would make it. No, we're gonna, we can skip this week, but if it's every week, we don't do that. I like this next one that she brings up because this doesn't have to be a budget. Set money goals. This is a big one. I think OG if you're having money troubles. Part of my problem was I couldn't. I would walk into a store and I'D see a good looking sweater and I would think, I deserve this, right? The three things that Buffy Purcell said on our show that is the bane of a poor person's existence. The three words, I deserve it. Like, oh, I deserve it. I've been working hard and then I go buy this ridiculously expensive sweater. But when we started thinking about our money goals, like taking the kids to Disney without the credit card, right? Taking the kids to Disney or doing a big trip out west that we did, once I started setting bigger money goals, the budget began to take care of itself. Because you know what? I was motivated to not buy the sweater because of the fact that I had a bigger fish that I was looking at.

[OG]

Who's the start with? Why, Guy?

[Joe]

Oh, Simon Sinek.

[OG]

Simon Sinek. Yeah. I'm observing this a little bit as it relates to this bike ride that I'm training for. I am very well known for making sure that I have a glass of wine quite frequently and don't mind having a bourbon, don't mind having a couple of beers during the game or whatever kind of the thing. But I also look at that training schedule every week and go, I can't feel like crap tomorrow. I can't have one iota of crap feeling. I have to go to sleep at 10 o' clock because I have to get up at 7 because I have to get this done, otherwise I will die on this frigging mountain somewhere. So having a bigger purpose for training, in this case and exercise and dieting and so on and so forth, I think is the same thing with money. As soon as you have a bigger reason why, to your point, it takes all the stress off that other stuff because it becomes non important. You're looking for the dopamine hit of I just did something. And the sweater example is that's your dopamine hit, right? It's like, I'm trying to go do something and, you know, whatever, get that little bit of extra love. And when you have a bigger purpose of what your money's for, you get a bigger dopamine hit or bigger. Why for a bigger hit? For donating money or for making sure that you're on track for your goals, you get that little chart out of, like, here's where I need to be every single month to take the kids to Disney in a year. That becomes the, like, attaboy turns it

[Joe]

into a Great game.

[OG]

Not $10 margaritas on Tex Mex night.

[Joe]

Two more that I like on here and then we'll let people read the rest. If they want on our show notes page at Stacky Benjamin's. Planning out your meals, ma'. Am. When Cyril and I got serious about meal planning, that became fun. Planning out the meals became a great time. And of course, you're eating at home. Less expensive as well. And then the last one on here that I really liked, which was the reason I don't coupon. You know, in that first piece we read, the guy's like, oh, they're identified because they coupon clip and because they get coupon, by the way, coupon. If you're not good at this, Rachel says, and I 100 agree, resist sales because sales, Len, are a way for them to get more. But you must have written about [e-mail] you must have. About how sales are just. That's where they get you, right? Yeah, they're just gonna off do a sale and you'll buy something that you totally didn't need.

[Len Penzo]

Exactly. And she has a great line here. She says if you buy a new coffee maker, you're never going to buy just because it's 25 up, you're actually paying 100 than you would have. I mean, that's a great line.

[Joe]

Yeah, great stuff. Was there one more on here, Len, that resonated with you?

[Len Penzo]

Well, the avoid restaurants and the but. And then she puts in parentheses and food delivery apps. It's not the restaurants. So I don't quite agree with the restaurant so much, but the food delivery apps is absolutely. I don't understand today's generation, especially that just they don't think twice about using a food delivery app. One day Honeybee was gone and had the kids here. My daughter said, let's get something delivered via. And I think we got KF's, Kentucky Fried Chicken. I love it. Okay, I'm not gonna, you know, sue me, but you know, we got it through food delivery app. I think the bucket of chicken and you know, the couple sides, it was like almost a hundred dollars with the food delivery. It was like, what the heck?

[OG]

And better news, Len, it was cold by the time it got to you.

[Len Penzo]

Exactly, exactly. I was like, you guys do this all the time. It's like, why don't you just drive down there and pick it up? You know, crazy.

[Doug]

Probably didn't get half the fries you ordered either.

[Joe]

We'll link to these on the show notes@stacking benjamin's.com and go crazy stackers. Let us know by the way, either your questions about getting better at this or your wins call our voicemail. Stacky benjamin.com voicemail and we will have you chat with the whole community about it on a future episode. All right, we're going to wander out on the back porch. Doug, what do we got going on?

[Doug]

Joe, I would be remiss not to point out a couple of our bad groups getting together later this week. Wednesday night in Boston. It's not really Boston, it's just fun to say. It's actually in Melrose, Mass. At Hannah's Brewing. April 8, 6pm Hannah's Brewing, Melrose, Mass. Be there, Boston area stackers. And then if you're willing to hop on a plane like the next morning, head out to Seattle on Thursday, April 9 from 5 to 7 at the Berliner Pub in Renton, Washington. Our Seattle BAD group is getting together.

[Joe]

So many fun stackers. I've met many of the stackers that attend these. And if you haven't, man, you're missing out hanging out with our kind of people in both of those locations. Just super people getting together. Benjamin's After Dark StackingBenchmans.com BAD shows you how to join up. We also got a letter. We just got a letter. We just got a letter. We just got a letter. Wonder who it's from. Debbie wrote us. Hey, Debbie. Debbie says, I've met with two financial advisors from two separate firms. All each of them have been interested in is investing the money I received from a pension plan fund that my employer dissolved. That's all they were interested in. What I'm looking for is someone to meet with me annually, go over my entire financial picture and suggest changes that I can make and show me where I could be down the line. How do I seek out this type of advisor? Well, OG you mentioned during.

[OG]

Sorry, what?

[Joe]

You might know one of those. OG Is that what you're saying?

[OG]

Anna's great at that.

[Joe]

He. He deep, very well recommends Anna.

[OG]

Little self interest, but that's good.

[Joe]

Well, sure, but not unwarranted. I mean, you just got the. You're not going to brag about this, so I will. Newsweek just out of the blue said you guys are one of the top firms in the United States. So great job there. Congratulate again to Anna.

[OG]

Yes, mostly.

[Joe]

Mostly because of Newsweek didn't even write that in spite of you. You guys found a way parenthetical, I think, guys, to. To kick this off. Oh gee. I think she's got to be really upfront about what she's looking for. I love Debbie, that you wrote here's I'm looking for somebody to meet with annually to look at my entire financial picture and let me know how I'm doing and help me with course correction. Like, if you start there and say, is that what you do? Like, how do you work with your people? Isn't that the place to start? OG Just be very blunt about. Is that what you do? Because I don't want to waste your time, don't want to waste mine.

[OG]

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, there's a bajillion ways that financial professionals, let's just call all of us in one big lump sum, work with clients. And some of us focus on financial planning. That's what we do at our firm. And all the other stuff is still part of it, but it's more ancillary. You know, it gets some attention when it's supposed to insurance and estate planning and your investments and all that sort of stuff. But it really is at the service of the overall plan or the outcome that you're looking for some areas or some companies or some people just focus on one particular area. That doesn't make them bad, and it doesn't make you looking for the wrong thing. It just means that that's what they specialize in. And I think a true professional would have no trouble saying, this is the area that I'm an expert at and we should talk, or, this is not an expert, an area that I'm an expert in. It's weird because in our business, in the financial planning business, for some reason, everyone shies away from this. Yet in every other industry in America, you wouldn't go to a Mercedes dealership and go, what I'm really looking for, it is a Ford. You know, I really, I'm really interested in the expedition. Tell me more about that. The Mercedes guy would be like, dude, we specialize in Mercedes. What are you doing here? We're not good at this. You go to your orthopedic surgeon and you're like, I'm really having some trouble with my chest. Chest pains. It hurts when I breathe. The guy goes, what are you doing here? You need a cardiologist or a pulmonologist. It's not what I do, right? In every other industry, we have specialties. And as a professional, those professionals have no problem going, yeah, sorry, not me. Can't help. I know a guy. I know a gal that can help you. But in the financial planning world, air quotes, the financial services world, probably better to say, somebody will call and be like, I really need an estate plan. They're like, great, but have you looked at your investments lately? Let me tell you about all this great investment, but I want to deal with an estate plan right now. They're findable. You have to just look for them. I think being straightforward and saying, this is what I'm looking for will help a bunch of. To make sure that you're at least interviewing people that are focused on the thing that you think is important. And I will say this also, just because it's what you want doesn't necessarily mean it's what's best for you. And I'm not saying that what you want isn't what's best for you. I'm not saying that at all for this letter in particular. But if you show up and say, I really need a big estate plan and your net worth is $300,000, you know, like what? Tell me more. You know, you don't have any kids, you're single. What do you need a big estate plan for? You know, what you need to focus on is your debt payoff or your savings. You know what I mean? Like, again, a professional will kind of guide you in those. In those ways, I think, or should.

[Joe]

I very much appreciate that having pros that will, quote, unquote, fight with me a little bit. Not really fight, but will challenge my thinking. Right. Will challenge the premise of the question. I think is an important thing. You know, even OG what strikes me is you can even do that, Debbie, when you're, when you're asking for referrals from other people. Because a lot of the time you can ask friends who they work with, but if they just go, oh, I got a guy, or I got a woman. I got a person. You want to be specific there too? Say, here's what I'm looking for. Somebody meets with me annually. Who. Does your person do that? Is this what they do? Then you can weed them out without even having to sit through the sales pitch, which is.

[OG]

I think this is a 10 minute conversation with.

[Joe]

Yes.

[OG]

With a handful of people. This is what I think I'm looking for. This is what I think I need. Is this your specialty?

[Joe]

Yeah.

[OG]

Yes or no? Move on.

[Joe]

Len, have you had any of these meetings before? Did you ever sit down with different people and, and get the sales pitch, the rubber chicken dinner or anything?

[Len Penzo]

When it. With personal finance, the. No, I never did. I've never sat down with a personal finance planner ever. But I think OG said it all. There's not really much I can add other. I mean, he, he. It was perfect what he. What he said.

[OG]

Say that again. Say that again, Len, just one more time.

[Len Penzo]

It was just for the record, Perfect, Og. It was perfect.

[OG]

Chills down my spine. Talk dirty to me, Len.

[Len Penzo]

State what you want. State what you want up front. I think that's the best advice.

[OG]

Absolutely.

[Joe]

Debbie, thanks for the nice letter. If you would like to be on an episode we've got coming up soon where Anna and Og and I are going to tackle all of your questions. Head to stacking benjamins.com voicemail and we're happy to. Happy to answer as many of these as we can get to. All right, that's going to do it for today. Mr. Penzo, thanks for hanging out with us, man.

[Len Penzo]

Always a pleasure, Joe. Always a pleasure.

[Joe]

I was going to ask you, would you mind sharing. Did you share this in our Facebook group? The basement, the picture of it, it looks like. Doug, you saw this. It looks like a.

[Doug]

It looks like heaven is what it looks like, Joe.

[Joe]

It does. It looks like a photograph. It looks like you have a photograph of people working on a railroad.

[Len Penzo]

Right.

[Joe]

There's these railroad tracks and there's these people. And then you find out it's not a photograph, that this is. Len, this is your train set.

[Len Penzo]

Yes, it's my train. I actually put it on your Facebook.

[Joe]

Was it on the Facebook page? I was going to ask you to do that if you hadn't.

[Len Penzo]

I had spent the last month building a white water rapids, a river on my train. I put little canoers in there and one.

[Doug]

And one little wave on the river took you a month.

[Len Penzo]

It's hard. It's really hard. You know what, you have to let things dry and, and you know, like the river is made out of toilet paper, if you could believe. So the river is made out of toilet paper and glue and drink multiple layers of toilet paper. First you have to get the. Lay down the multiple layers of toilet paper, soak it in wet glue, which is like 50% mix of 50% glue and water. Then you got to, you got to let everything dry. Takes a day. You know, you do it gradually. It takes days just to build that thing, then you. To paint it. Then you have to do multiple layers of gloss. It's on there, though. If you go, I forget where it's at. I. It was on somebody.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Len Penzo]

You know, you do the thing. Hey, what did you do this week? Your daily.

[Joe]

Yeah, Mom's on the refrigerator.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah. So I shared a couple pictures there.

[Joe]

You got to go search that down. Stackers, because it's pretty damned amazing.

[Len Penzo]

Thank you, Joe.

[Joe]

But also amazing is Len, your website. What's. What's coming [e-mail] oh, man.

[Len Penzo]

You know what? Every Saturday I do my black coffees. You can come check that out. But that's that. But other I'm working on my train mostly.

[Joe]

There it is. Come check out len's [e-mail]. maybe just blog about your train.

[Len Penzo]

Just the train and my book, of course, which you can get on Amazon.

[Joe]

You can do that, which is fantastic. Yeah. True money stories. Fantastic read. All right, that's gonna do it for all of us. Thank you so much for hanging out with us the last hour. If you know somebody who needs to become a better spender, wants to become that Midwest millionaire by tackling these little things that become big things, pass on the episode to them and they will appreciate it and so will we, and so will you. Because you'll be around people that think the way that you think about money, which is pretty awesome. And if personally you want to get a scorecard on here's how I think I'm doing my money, but am I really doing that well? How am I doing? Oh, gee. And Anna on the team, they have a scorecard that you where you can rate yourself. You can see the rating stacking. Benjamins.com scorecard gets you there and you can walk through it and in just a few minutes see how you rate with your money and how your money is organized in your financial plan. All right, that's going to do it for today. Doug, what are the three things on our to do list? Bring it home.

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from our headline, want to be a Midwest Millionaire? Work on your everyday saving habits and start saying, oh, you betcha a whole bunch. Second, how about advice from Debbie's letter looking for money help? Begin with what you're looking for and ask specifically if they handle the thing you want. If not, time to move along until someone says yes. There's like three jokes about you at a bar in college there, Joe. How do I ignore that?

[Joe]

Easy.

[Doug]

But the big lesson, don't joke about Len's hat. Len, keep doing that, you're going to go blind. Actually, we're all going to go blind. Holy cow. Put it back on. That is. That hat is doing some work. Huge thanks to the Len Penzo for joining us. You'll find Len's blog cleverly [e-mail] and his book True Money Stories on Len's site [e-mail] this show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Sal Sehei. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh, yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from. From people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.