You Don't Need to Be a Money Genius to Win SB1809

Summary

The Stacking Benjamins Show:

"You Don't Need to Be a Money Genius to Win" (SB1809)
February 27, 2026 | Guests: Whitney Hansen (The Money Nerds), Jesse Kramer (Personal Finance for Long Term Investors), OG (co-host), Hosted by Joe Saul-Sehy

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Episode Overview

This fun and informative episode centers on a simple but powerful concept: You don’t have to be a financial genius to make great money decisions. Inspired by a recent Morgan Housel post about how most people think they're above average with money, the hosts and guests discuss practical, approachable strategies for people who consider themselves financially "average" or even in the "bottom 50%". Throughout, the tone remains light, accessible, and witty—proving that learning about money can (and should!) be low-stress.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recognizing Knowledge Gaps and Starting Points

• Whitney Hansen’s Teaching Framework ([08:46], [09:00])

  • As a finance educator, Whitney sees most people start adulthood with big knowledge gaps—many not even aware of what they lack.
  • Actionable Tip: Use quizzes (e.g., investor.gov) to assess your gaps. Then, set monthly themes to go deep into one area of personal finance at a time.
    • "If you do that every other month for a solid year, you're going to be a little bit better than average on six different money topics." – Whitney ([09:37])

• Overconfidence and the Dunning-Kruger Effect ([10:59])

  • Jesse underscores that a little knowledge can be dangerous; people who just started learning about money can quickly become overconfident and miss how much they still don’t know.
    • “The scary part about ignorance is you're often ignorant to just how ignorant you actually are... you learn 5% of the knowledge base and you think you're like the smartest person out there.” – Jesse ([11:21])

2. Building Simple, Reliable Systems

• Start Where You Are & Focus on Cash Flow ([17:01], [18:49])

  • Jesse: Focus on what you can control—savings rate, career capital, spending. Ignore distractions like stock picking or “dressing the part.”
  • Whitney: Cash flow is the foundation. Try a tactile approach—print statements, categorize transactions by hand for one month for accountability and awareness.
    • "When you are going line by line, your brain goes, oh, damn, I have to take accountability for this." – Whitney ([19:42])

• Automatic Investing Through Payroll and 401(k)s ([24:01])

  • Joe: You don’t have to be brilliant—just set up auto contributions once with HR and your wealth builds automatically.

3. Making Investing Tangible and Non-Intimidating

• OG’s Approach ([20:49])

  • Frame investing as buying tiny parts of companies you already use—Target, Starbucks, Apple, etc.—rather than gambling.
    • “You're just owning little bits of companies.” – OG ([23:38])

• Start Small, Learn by Doing ([24:45])

  • Whitney: Reduce intimidation by starting to invest with small amounts—$20 here, $50 there. Over time, confidence and understanding grow with your money.
    • “You start with such a small amount that it doesn't feel so heavy when it goes up and down…baby steps where you just get your feet wet.” – Whitney ([24:49])

4. Risk Management for Non-Experts

• Insurance Basics Without Overwhelm ([37:42])

  • Whitney:

    • Most people begin with basic policies (auto, home).

    • Shop around and talk to at least three agents for big decisions (especially life insurance): patterns in their pitches reveal what’s real and what’s sales talk.

    • For most, simple term life insurance is sufficient.

    • “Talk to at least three different people so you can understand personality types, sales pitches, and just get a good context of what you're signing up for.” – Whitney ([38:15])

  • Jesse shares a hot tub buying story as a lesson—everyone is susceptible to persuasive sales tactics; comparing notes after several pitches is key. ([39:54])

• Unlocking the Fine Print with AI ([45:41])

  • OG: Use tools like ChatGPT to upload insurance documents and have them explained in plain English.
    • “You can use ChatGPT… and say, 'Here's this PDF. Explain this to me like I'm a bottom 50 percent-er.'” – OG ([45:44])

5. Demystifying Estate Planning

• Practical, Not Scary ([50:08])
  • Jesse: Invert the problem. Instead of "How do I create a perfect estate plan?", ask "How could my family be left in a mess if I die?"—then plan to avoid those nightmares.
    • “Identify those behaviors that make it terrible and then do the opposite of those behaviors… you try to then enact some behaviors to prevent those outcomes.” – Jesse ([50:53])
  • OG: Remind clients that everyone already has an estate plan (the state’s default!). A basic will and updated beneficiaries are good enough for most; don’t drown in complexity or jargon.

6. Bridging the Confidence Gap

• Confidence Comes From Competence—And Competence From Reps ([59:03]-[60:07])

  • Whitney: True financial confidence is built gradually, by taking small actions and accumulating experience—not from reading or theory alone.
    • “Confidence comes from competence, and competence comes from experience... focus on the experience piece and just doing the reps and getting comfortable with it.” – Whitney ([59:31])

• For Teachers and Family “Money Nerds”: Beware the Curse of Knowledge ([61:02])

  • Jesse: Experienced people often forget what it’s like to be new to finance. Slow down, avoid jargon, and meet learners where they are.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "By definition, 50% of us are in the bottom half. Of course we are. And yet we all think we're in the upper two thirds." – Joe Saul-Sehy, introducing the Housel article ([06:00])

• “If you’re in a position that you need to have an estate plan and you don’t have one and you don’t want to do it, it’s OK. That’s on you. You're just an idiot. I can't help you.” – OG, in his famously blunt style ([53:32])

• Whitney’s humor:
  “I am great. I'm better now that I know I never smell. Thank you for that.” ([04:10])

• Group riffing about personal finance trivia games, hot tubs, and whether to trust friends about saunas—all keep the episode playful and light.

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Important Timestamps

• 08:46: Whitney Hansen’s advice for identifying knowledge gaps
• 10:59: Jesse on the Dunning-Kruger effect and overconfidence
• 17:01: Focusing on controllables in finance
• 18:49: Tactile cash flow management vs. apps
• 20:49: OG’s approach to explaining investments simply
• 24:45: Building confidence with tiny investment steps
• 37:42: Whitney’s insurance shopping tips
• 45:41: Using ChatGPT/AI to demystify insurance policies
• 50:08: The role of estate plans (and how to think about them)
• 59:03: Confidence = competence = experience

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Recap/Takeaways

• You don't need rare financial expertise or complex strategies to win with money.
• Start by identifying gaps and focusing your learning, one topic at a time.
• Automate what you can – especially savings and investing – so you can “win” consistently.
• Be wary of financial sales pitches—shop around, compare advice, and use plain-language tools (like AI) to clarify what you're buying.
• Estate planning, insurance, and investing need not be intimidating or overly technical—keep things simple.
• Both new learners and experienced mentors/parents must communicate in clear, confidence-building language and remember everyone's been a newbie at some point.

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Resources & Guest Plugs

• Whitney Hansen: The Money Nerds Podcast (themoneynerds.com) – fun, accessible advice on all things money
• Jesse Kramer: Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors Podcast – deep dives into investing logic and personal finance ([find on major podcast platforms])
• OG: Financial planning/advisor services: stackingbenjamins.com/og

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This summary captured the essential lessons, actionable tips, and fun energy this episode is known for. If you enjoyed the vibe, find the full episode and more at stackingbenjamins.com.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

Oh, hey, everyone. Just a reminder to tell Joe's mom she looks like she lost weight because I accidentally parked on the grass again.

[B]

Hey, guys, mics are hot.

[D]

Quiet on the set.

[C]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and on today's show, what money tips would you need if people thought you were seriously stupid with your cash? On today's show, we'll explore what you need to know so you're not just relying on last minute hail Mary miracle events to be the savior of your financial plan. But that's not all. Of course, I'm gonna regale you with my super amazing trivia question. And now, a guy who's super amazing at making a bottle of wine disappear and talking about good money habits, It's Joe Sal.

[A]

Hey there, Stackers. I like how part of that was added in. I expected part of that. I did all of that.

[C]

I zigged. You thought I was going to zag.

[A]

How's it going, Doug?

[C]

I'm doing great. I'm. I'm. I'm feeling fresh as a daisy right now.

[A]

Is that a euphemism? Is that a. I mean. Or.

[C]

Yeah, as I haven't been six or seven days. That too.

[A]

Oh, thank goodness you're on the other side of the basement, way far away from me. And by the way, because I was celebrating my birthday recently, I did help make a bottle of wine disappear.

[C]

I know I did.

[A]

Very much. And a guy who also great making a bottle of wine disappear across the card table from me. Mr. OG's here. How are you, man?

[B]

Not anymore. All the party time is over. Yep, party time's over.

[A]

Oh, parties. But because you're back at work.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You're working, you're focused, things are good.

[B]

Laser.

[A]

Yes. What? How long does this streak go for where you actually wok? Is it like two days, three days?

[B]

I think. I mean, it's going to be a solid four days this week.

[A]

Oh, man, that is good.

[B]

Two and a half. I Mean roughly.

[A]

That's not a bad place to start. And a guy who works eight days a week. Hey, Rochester, New York, Jesse Kramer is here.

[E]

Is that a Beatles song?

[A]

It might be. Oh, I just made it up. I had no idea.

[E]

Great minds think alike, Joe.

[A]

Me and me and Paul and John, we all think the same. How are you, Jesse?

[E]

I'm doing well, thanks. I'm doing well. Apparently I look great. I mean, that's what Doug was telling me. Doug was telling me I look a little worse for wear.

[C]

You don't.

[D]

I'm.

[C]

Look, I'm here. Keeping it real. You've looked better, my man.

[E]

But I feel fine. I feel fine.

[A]

You're backstage ahead of time. And Doug offered Jesse some money and said, I'm not sure if. If you need a little help. Not sure what that was all about.

[C]

Well, he was holding that. That metal soup can, Joe, jingling some change. I thought maybe he could use a help.

[A]

They could just. Just friends help him. Friends. Well, at least you don't have to admit, Jesse, that you smell bad, which is great.

[E]

Correct. Everyone smells great over audio and a. Oh, man.

[A]

And a woman who never smells bad. Is that. Is that like the worst introduction ever? Thank goodness she's a good friend from the money nerds. Whitney Hansen's back. How are you?

[D]

I am great. I'm better now that I know I never smell. Thank you for that.

[A]

Never smell?

[B]

No.

[A]

What? Moms never smell?

[D]

Yeah, I was going to say with a 13 month old, that's even better news for me. So I'm really great to hear that.

[A]

I remember when my twins, Whitney were that age and you, I mean, let's be real, you smell all the time like a baby that puked on you or whatever mud or whatever it might be. Yes, yes. How is the family, by the way?

[D]

So good. She's just growing up so fast and learning how to walk and keeping me on my toes even more than I expected. But it's going great.

[A]

That's what we say about Doug. It's pretty incredible how close that is. Our lives, Whitney. By the way, I want to ask you in a second about the money nerds and what you got going on lately. Because I've been been following you from afar and seeing some really cool stuff. But first, what a lot of people don't know about Whitney Hansen is you did a joint project. We actually featured it on our old show. Stacking deeds with Airbnb. Right?

[D]

Yeah, I did a giant flower pot build. It's a 24 foot tall, life size flower pot. That you can sleep in. And I built that with my mom, which. So it was kind of a fun situation. And it's still going well.

[A]

Isn't that cool? That's so cool. And on the money, nerds. What's been going on lately, man?

[D]

We are doing all kinds of fun things. We've been getting into video podcasts, so that's been a whole new thing for me. But enjoying that. We just had a guest that's going to be coming on. It's Christy and Bryce from the new book Parent Like a Millionaire. So any parents listening in that want to learn how to make their kids a little bit wealthier and take permanent vacations? That's the episode to listen to. So it's been a ton of fun over there.

[A]

You had OG at permanent vacations. That's what he's. It's like, forget the kids. Let's just talk vacations.

[D]

Sure.

[A]

It's awesome. Well, we've got a great show today, everybody, because I was reading this piece by the amazing Morgan Houselike Morgan is talking about, as always, some brilliant stuff. And then he just says, he drops this one line that by definition, 50% of us are in the bottom half. Of course we are. And yet we all think we're in the upper two thirds. And then I think we think we're in the upper two thirds. We think we're.

[E]

Some of us are good at math.

[B]

I think we've figured out who's who so far. We got Joe taken care of and which half he's in.

[A]

We think I'm at least in the 60th.6th percentile, but we think we're in the top third. Right. What was that? Doug Garrison Ker, who was, you know, all the kids are above average and Lake Wobegon.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, Lake Wobegon, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. So we all think that we're above average. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. What if we are the person who's in the bottom half? And then I thought about some of the best money advice I ever got. It wasn't this brilliance. I mean, I think part of the brilliance of Morgan Housel is when he says that stuff that's right in front of you and you go, oh, my. Well, that's, you know, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what. What that's all about, what I wanted to do. This is the thought exercise, everybody. I gave our team, let's say that we have a friend that we know is in the bottom half, right? And we want to help them be great financially so it can't be. It can't be something that is this, you know, huge optimization strategy, Mega, backdoor, Roth, ira. Can't be some really technical thing. What are some of the keys to being great with money for those people that aren't money savvy? All right, we're going to cover that today. Before we do that though, we got a couple of sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them. And then Whitney, og, Jesse, Doug and I, we're going to talk about making great financial decisions that are pretty straightforward.

[C]

Mic drop.

[E]

You ready?

[A]

Let's do it. Hosted by former Navy SEAL Mike Ridland. It's unfiltered. You know, you go to the sound of the gun, bam, you're gone.

[C]

It's weird.

[B]

I mean, I've had so many near death experiences.

[A]

It's raw.

[B]

I love this country. I offered my life to serve this

[C]

nation and protect its people.

[A]

The question, you know, what's the meaning of life?

[B]

And.

[A]

And to me it just boils down to one single word versus purpose.

[C]

Mic drop.

[B]

Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[A]

All right, I love this topic. Whitney, you're the guest of honor, so let's have you carry the show.

[D]

Come on, guys, let's go.

[A]

What is a great strategy for your friend that's maybe in the lower 50% just when it comes to financial skills?

[D]

Okay, I love this question because I have been an adjunct professor for 10 years at Boise State, so I really get to see the starting point for so many students and so many people as they go into adulthood. And one of the things that I notice first is we don't even know if we have a knowledge gap. And so what I would say first and foremost is figure out where you may be falling behind due to lack of knowledge. So for most 18 year olds, they're not going to know about 529s. They probably don't even care yet. But they should probably know about credit scores and budgeting. So one of the things that I like to do for most of us is I go to investor.gov and I check out their quizzes. They are like, so nerdy, so academic. I know, but if you take a quiz, it's going to start to show you some of your maybe internal gaps and then you can start to have fun with this. And I like to theme my months. If I notice that I'm maybe a little bit behind on investing or I don't feel like I know enough, then I would say, okay, all of March is going to be investing only. That's the only topic I'm learning. I'm listening to podcasts, I'm reading books, and I'm starting to apply one specific topic. And I mean, think about that. If you do that every other month for a solid year, you're going to be a little bit better than average on six different money topics. So I think that's where I would probably tell my friend to start.

[A]

Okay, show's over, everybody. There it is. Thank you, Whitney. We'll see, everybody next week. As you're talking, I'm thinking about the fact I love this idea that we all start with different deficiencies. And I started thinking about, like, what was something that a lot of people know that I had no idea about? And I could tell you exactly what one was. I didn't understand the difference between an investment and an ira. I remember when I was in college, that was really tripping me up. I'm like, wait a minute, I can get a stock or I can get an ira. I know what a stock is, but what's an ira? And it was so confusing for me. And now I'm like, duh, of course. But what are one of those areas for you, Jesse? You remember back in high school, college,

[E]

I. I still see it to this day. Job, I mean, that's one of the most common ones, is. Here's a question for you, Joe. I mean, what's smarter? Investing in an index fund or using my Roth? Like, we see these questions all the time. And. And, you know, for those who know the difference between the two, you realize it's kind of like saying, like, trying to think of another example that's a little more mundane. It's like, you know, do you walk to school or do you bring your lunch? We're kind of talking on two slightly different axes. But I still remember when I was starting to learn these ropes a little bit, just in the smallest way. It was my first job out of college. I was earning an income. This thing called a 401k was there, and it was growing. For some reason, I was contributing money to it. I just didn't really understand any of the underlying mechanisms. And, yeah, there was so much I didn't know. And that's. I guess one of the hard parts about ignorance is you're often ignorant to just how ignorant you actually are. It's that. Is it Dunning Kruger? Am I thinking of the right thing? That Dunning Kruger curve?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

What.

[E]

I don't know exactly. And the scary part about it is Usually that that first bit of knowledge that you start to get really increases your confidence a ton. So, like, you've learned 5% of the knowledge base and you think you're like the smartest person out there. And then only as you keep learning do you start to realize how much you don't know. And then eventually, maybe, maybe you learn enough to actually become an expert again. But maybe I'm still in my dunning Kruger phase. I don't know. That's a little scary to think about, but some of the conversations that I have, hopefully I'm past that bottom part of that dunning Kruger curve. But I think maybe one of the scary things that I think about regarding today's topic is that there are plenty of people out there who just, you know, they know that first couple percent of the knowledge base that can be important to you in personal finance. But, man, do they think they've got it all figured out. And that's a recipe for potentially personal disaster. If you think you know everything, but you barely know anything.

[A]

That's what scares me, is the overconfidence. I do get excited, though, when I see somebody who's like 5% into the curve and they're bragging to me about how they just found out about the thing. And I'm like, you are on this terrific journey, but it all is in the journey. The person that's beyond bragging, who's like, well, you don't need to worry about that because blah, blah, blah, oh, gee. But you see this all the time too. I gotta imagine when you have first meetings with people, I thought about this

[B]

in a different way. I took the question that you had, which was, what would we tell people in terms of knowledge or where would we have people start? So I think there's a lot of things like Jesse was talking about, what should I invest in this or that that are not related. We see a lot of stuff on credit. I know that there's one person in the chat that just said something about credit. I just had a conversation with my son this week. He's a freshman in business school at A and M, and that one of their classes that they have, they have people come in that are graduates and, like, talk about their job and trying to get the kids some exposure to what else is out there. And clearly he had somebody there who is a real estate person and very much had the. You know, if you're in debt a million dollars, that's your problem. But if you're in debt to the bank a billion dollars, that's theirs. So get into debt as much as you can because that's how you leverage everything and stuff like that. And it's like, that's a great example. That sounds like a great idea. Like, why would opm right. Other people's money? Like, I would. Why would I want to use my own money? I'll use other people's money. And then you start kind of unwinding it. And my coaching with him was, well, let's walk through this, but let's find out how you die first. You know, like, where does this end badly? And it's like, oh, well, if I don't account for all these bad things that can happen, it can get really, really messy in a hurry and really blow up a lot of stuff. So I like that example of the Dunning Kruger effect. A lot of people know that I fly airplanes and there's an example of an accident that happened this past weekend. And I think I'm on the other side of that curve at the very bottom where I'm petrified now, again, I've flown a lot, I know a lot about flying. And then I see an accident that happens like this. And one of the comments in our chat group was, there's probably people out there that said, oh my gosh, this type of accident could have happened to me. And I was one of those people where I'm like, I don't know that I'm smart enough to have seen this little intricacy of the detail of this flying situation that caused this dude to fly into a mountain with his family. I don't know that I'm smart enough to have figured that out. And that's just part of learning and growing, is recognizing there's gotta be a little bit more knowledge somewhere there too, and you can do the same thing with your money. You know, leverage is a great example, right? Leverage is really cool and it works really well, but you can blow up the whole family pretty quickly if you do it badly.

[A]

People are leaving some fantastic stories on our chat on YouTube. We record these Monday afternoon. So come join us on a Monday afternoon and be a part of the show. Curtis is the one I think. Oh, gee, you're talking about. He says, I was told by a mortgage broker for our first home that we needed more credit lines and should go open multiple quote store branded credit cards. Pretty. Pretty ridiculous. I don't know. Why would I is the mortgage broker than somebody who's 5% up on the scale? Like they're. They think that's the answer, you know, What I mean that this is. This is somebody that isn't aware that they're sending.

[B]

Well, you got to demonstrate your ability to handle credit. Right. Makes sense to have to have a lot of it to be able to demonstrate your ability to handle it.

[A]

So go apply for it all at once. You take your credit very quickly.

[B]

There's the other side of that.

[A]

Yeah, not good. Kelly says through my 20s and 30s, I didn't know I had to roll my employer's 401k to save for retirement. Was more focused on paying my monthly bills. And then there's other people that know, by the way, Kelly, and thank you for the note. There's people that know. Yeah, but that's way like, you know what I mean? We don't understand compounding interest. So, Whitney, I love that is a kickoff. Let's go take some quizzes like investor.gov let's dive into where our weaknesses are. Design ourself a curriculum. But let's step up some of these systems for people because I feel like some of the systems are where we really win. Jesse, what's a system? We could help somebody who might not be that money savvy, not have to be that money savvy and still win.

[E]

Let me see if this answers your question, Joe. A system. So I think this is maybe a mental system, but it's really to focus on what you can control. Okay. So there's this broad system that someone who's maybe in the bottom half of the personal finance sphere and maybe they're even aware of all these different things, like, oh, I got to pick a stock that's going to win. Like that. That's something that good finance people do. Right. And I got to look the part. I got to dress up in nice clothes. Like that's something that finance people do. Like. My point is that there are a lot of things in the world and in the world of personal finance that are somewhat out of your control. You can focus on the things you can control. You can focus on your savings rate. You can focus on lifestyle inflation. You can focus on career. Your career capital. And I think so much of the foundation of good personal finance is just focusing on those things that are within your circle of competence and within your realm of control and accepting the fact that sometimes the things that are out of your control are actually going to go against you, which it sucks. Like, nobody enjoys doing that. Nobody wants to feel like they're losing in some way, especially when it's something that's outside of your control. You know, it's kind of wasted energy to get too anxious about those things outside of your control. So focus on what you can control. That'll be the. The system that I use to answer that question.

[A]

But I'm wondering, Whitney, how we do that, because I'm thinking it was always what back when I was an advisor, it was always the. The new investor, right. That would see the stock market, as an example, as voodoo, and also to judge the results as if the fund had been bad that they chose instead of the fact that they invested when the market was down.

[D]

Right.

[A]

So they think, oh, I should have never invested right then. That was crazy, because you can do the right thing as you know, and have it initially not go great. So how do you. How do you teach somebody who's brand new at this to not pay attention to the stuff they can't control?

[D]

I think the kind of, like what Jesse was talking about is really honing in on what you can control, which for so many people, it's cash flow. Can you monitor your cash flow? Yes. At the end of the day, it all comes down to how much do you earn and how much goes out every single month. And for so many people, we don't track that, we don't pay attention. It's a lot of money leaks, and that does impact your ability to have extra money to pay off debt, to invest, to take a sweet vacation, to set up that estate that you know you need to your wills. There's so many things that come down to cash flow. So an exercise that I personally have to go through occasionally if I feel like I've been a little bit lazy with my own budgeting. I will print off 30 days of my transactions. I'll do my bank account, and I'll do my credit card statements just for 30 days. And I will assign three categories that are ones that I maybe slack off on or don't really know how much I spend. So this would be, for me, coffee. I love my coffee. It would be eating out and sometimes groceries. I get a little bit lazy there, too. And then line by line, I highlight every single transaction. And a lot of people are like, yeah, but Whitney, we know there's apps that do that for you. Did you know that? I'm very aware of. But the reason why I like this so much is when you are going line by line, your brain goes, oh, damn, I have to take accountability for this. Like, this was me swiping my car.

[A]

Like, the fact that it was tactile is what's working for you.

[D]

It does. And it does so much more differently. Like, I've done this in a lot of groups, and what I find is when we see the number at the end of that, we have to take accountability. But then we also have that awareness, so we can start to say, what changes might I make? But I think that's a great first step for just like cash flow management is understanding where your leaks are.

[A]

That's fabulous. I want to go back to the stock market, though, because I feel like OG people that are new will invest in the stock market. The stock market will go a different way than they thought. And they're like, I never should have bought that total stock market index. That was a horrible move.

[B]

Well, I think that when it comes to investing, this is probably one of those pieces where back to education and back to the beginning of what the heck are we even doing? 401s, IRAs, investing index funds, stocks, all of that seems very basic to probably the five of us that are here. But I also recognize that a lot of people just don't even understand this whole concept of what we're doing. I would break it down into, frankly, the most basic way that I can think of it is you get to go out there and this is what we taught our kids. And we used a cool tool for this. So we're not going to pitch it anymore because they charge too much money. But the way that we pitched it to our kids was you're going out there and you're buying little teeny tiny pieces of the companies that you get to do business with every day. And so when you take away the idea of investing as this big giant, nebulous thing of like, I just throw my money into this black box and, you know, the Internet says I should use this, this fund. But then I also read that maybe I should use this fund. And I don't even know what any of this means. Just break it down into the idea that you're owning companies that are places that you already do business with. And if you look around your house and you look at the stuff that you interact with and you look at the stuff of where you already spend your money. Whitney, you spend money on coffee. Maybe you buy your coffee at Starbucks. And so if you're going to buy your coffee at Starbucks, you could say, I'm going to own a little teeny tiny piece of this company so that when I buy Starbucks coffee, and when everybody else buys Starbucks coffee and they make some money, I make a little bit of income on that. I drive a Chevrolet so I can Buy General Motors. I watch TV on a Sony television. My kids play Xbox. I go to Costco. I shop at Target. All of these are companies that you do business with and all the things that you buy while you're at Target. Right. Gillette, razor blades and, you know, whatever. So it's like all these things that you already do business with. Think about it from the perspective of, do I want to own a piece of this organization moving forward? And then it makes it a little bit easier, I think, to recognize that not every single day is Target going to make a bunch of money. You know, it's. There was an ice storm in Dallas. Guess what? All the restaurants in Dallas were kind of closed. I own some McDonald's, so I can justify the fact in my brain that McDonald's didn't make any money this week because everything was closed. You know, so it's not so much like it went down or. The worst thing is you think about it from a gambling standpoint. Somebody posted that in the chat, too. It's like, well, investing is gambling. It's like, no, it's not. You're just owning little bits of companies.

[A]

So I like this idea of breaking.

[B]

Andrea, I can name lots of companies in one minute. Don't at me, bro.

[A]

Adrian just asked OG in the comments, how many companies names can one person drop in a minute?

[B]

I'm working on my MacBook, which is an Apple, and I'm looking at my phone.

[A]

Thank you. You already proved the point.

[B]

Keep going.

[A]

It was pretty amazing.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Pretty wild. I was like, wow, all these are public companies and he's going. Going crazy. It is interesting. Whitney. I do like the idea. Oh, Gee said, you know, break it down to the smallest component, which is you own these companies. I like that. You know what, on a daily basis, it might not do well, but I also like something that. That. That Jen, I believe, said in the chat, which was this idea of putting money into the 401k, which means here's one that I really like. Just the idea of automatically investing a little bit. Like, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to do this. You don't need to be brilliant to do this. You got to go to your HR one time and all of a sudden you're winning week after week, paycheck after paycheck. Like there's a system that works.

[D]

Oh, I agree. I think the part about investing that feels so scary is when we think of investing, we think of the big dollar amounts at the end, a lot of stakes on the line. It Feels really scary and heavy. So we're thinking about the million dol portfolio we have to build, not the $20 that we have today that we could invest into an ETF or an index fund. So it is a little bit scary. But I do think if you start with such a small amount that it doesn't feel so heavy when it goes up and down. When you start to boost your confidence and you continue doing that, you do have those ups and downs and you feel okay about it because you, you practice with your $20 and now you have $200,000 and it's still a little scary, but it's not the same degree. And so I think it is just kind of those little baby steps where you just get your feet. We try it with a little, little bit here and there.

[A]

You know what I really like too is you can also then break that down to the smallest step after, after six months I would show my client the different, the different prices we were buying in at so they could see og what you were talking about. You know, a little bit up, a little bit down. See it's just, it's, it's going to go like this on. But guess what we're doing. We're just continually buying. And look at what happened to you. Now your dividend check's bigger. Now you're, you know, you've got much more money invested and it didn't break anything in your budget because Whitney, we'd done some of the stuff that you were talking about. I want to keep this rolling the second half. I want to talk about risk management, which is a hard thing for people to understand, right? Buying insurances. You see so many people especially that aren't financially savvy get ripped off on insurances. We'll talk. But Whitney, you mentioned you're doing your estate plan. Like why do I need an estate plan? I'm 30 years old. Like, does it matter? So we'll talk about those and more. But at the halfway point of every episode of Stacky Benjamin's on Fridays we have this amazing year long competition between our three frequent. Oh, that is, that is Jesse Og and Paula Pant. Whitney, you are on team Paula Pant. Which is good news and bad news? Do you want the good news or the bad news?

[D]

Give me the bad. Let's just get it over with.

[A]

Well, well the bad news might be the good news in this case, which is Paula as usual is incredibly brilliant but is in last place.

[B]

No, she's not. She's tied for second, isn't she?

[C]

She Is indeed tied for second.

[B]

See?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Last.

[A]

Which also means she's tied for what place? Doug.

[C]

Dead freaking last.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

So the bad news here, Whitney, is Doug's gonna give you the score and, well, it isn't looking great for team Paula or team Jesse Kramer.

[D]

Hey, you know, we'll do what we can. And the stakes seem pretty low, so I'm. I'm up for it.

[C]

The great news, Whitney, is you can't do any worse. We had a giant shift last week. OG Used a margin call, and that just changed. It was a tectonic shift in the let. No, it wasn't really. Nothing changed. OG stayed in the lead. He's got five. Jesse had one, but he lost it. He went back to zero. And Paula always had zero. So we're right whack where we've been for like 15 years on this show. OG in the lead, and he is the evil empire. Please embarrass him today.

[A]

That's right. And here is the deal stackers. And Whitney, this is for you too. OG Used his margin call already for the first quarter. His won't come back until April 1st. But Jesse has the opportunity on this episode if he wants to stay margin call to you or to OG and that means can't to Paula.

[C]

Doesn't have a can't to Paula.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's right. He can only do it to OG.

[B]

Don't you have to have a point to be able to margin call though? Because you have to lose a point. Can you go negative?

[A]

You can go negative because you get one margin call per quarter, no matter what.

[B]

Golly, that could really widen the gap. Jesse.

[E]

OG just tell me what you would do if you were in my shoes. Just make my decisions for me. Actually, OG You. Can you margin call for me, OG and then can you also answer for me before you answer for yourself?

[C]

Sweep the knee.

[B]

If you're ahead, you keep winning by all manner possible.

[A]

So, Whitney, if Jesse says margin call, what that means? What that means is that. Oh, gee, will have to answer the question correctly. I have to be the closest. And if he's not, he'll lose a point and Jesse will. Will gain a point, right?

[B]

No, he gets a point if he wins.

[A]

He gets a point if he wins.

[D]

Can we explain this again?

[B]

Trying to give Jesse points. And basically, if either of you guys win today, you get five points because it's tied. It'll be tied. Five. Five then.

[A]

Thank you for explaining my game that apparently I don't even know the reels to. I have no idea what the rules are to this game. I swear to God, Doug, I am in the 66% today.

[B]

I don't know if you're 50% of the time. It work time.

[A]

That's right. All right, get me out of here. What's today's question?

[C]

Here you go, Joe and everybody else. Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and it's a party here in the basement. Now that Whitney's joined us, I mean, you know how crazy it gets when money nerds get together. We whip out some 1099 div forms, we crank out a couple of Schwab backdoor Roth contribution forms, and from there, I mean, it is off the chain, yo. But of course, we reel it back in just in time, because, you know, over the years, we've learned our lesson by watching others not know when to say when. One unfortunate lesson came from longtime late night talk show host Johnny Carson way back in 1982, when he was arrested for driving under the influence. Here's the money question. How much money was Johnny's? Fine. I'll be back right after I go print out a couple of more schedule Cs for OG. If that's not a sign you've been overserved, I don't know what is.

[A]

It's about to get even more crazy here. But before you get those Schedule Cs, let's dive into this one. So 1982, Johnny Carson gets arrested for a DUI driving under the influence. Oh, gee, you get to go first. How much was Johnny's? Fine.

[B]

So 19 and 82, huh? Jesse wasn't alive yet.

[E]

Correct.

[B]

I know that. Correct. And he probably wasn't alive either. She's young. She's like, no, not even close.

[E]

Doug. Joe.

[B]

You guys, Doug was at the bar with Jesse or with Johnny?

[C]

Joe was the bartender.

[B]

Joe was the bartender. Joe was DJing the party, I'm going to say. So there's two ideas here. One is, did they make an example of him because he's a public figure, so that's a risk, right? Like. Like they're like, oh, we're gonna throw the book at him times 10 just to like, you know, maybe he does a PSA, like, don't, don't drink.

[C]

You know, like they always do to celebrities. They never get off anything easy.

[B]

Well, and that's the other side. It's just like, well, we've got this thing and like, Johnny Carson got so much money, he's like, I can pay you in nickels. I don't really care. What y' all want? You know, I'm gonna keep doing this stuff, and then you got the whole inflation and time value, money and all that sort of jazz. So, Doug, how much was your fine recently? What did you pay?

[C]

Boundaries.

[E]

OG that wasn't dui. Indecent exposure. It's a different crime.

[B]

Oh, that's a way different thing, all right. Yeah, fines are way different for that. Okay. Anyways, I'm going to say that the fine in 1982, Old Johnny paid a grand total of $750.

[A]

$750, Jesse, what are you going to do with that?

[E]

I know it's expensive, but my gut was that all the expenses are like legal fees. And my initial gut instinct was lower than what OG said. I'm going to say 300.

[A]

$300. $300. Well, Whitney, we've got 750 and we've got 300. What do you think?

[D]

Well, Jesse, I was kind of with you on your logic there. So my first question was, was this a first offense? I think it probably was. I don't know, man. I'm going 250. I'm just gonna, like, slightly undercut you, friend.

[E]

Sorry. Go 299 if you want. I mean, if Paula was here and she had your logic, she would probably go 299 and the answer is going to be like, 310. So you can go 299 and I'm still going to win.

[A]

That's right.

[E]

Sorry, Paula.

[D]

Sticking firm. 250. We're. We're going for it.

[A]

If you're channeling Paula, you're playing the game wrong. OG with 750, Jesse with 300, Whitney with 250. Who's right? We're about to find out. Andrea in the chat is wondering if Jesse's gut is more reliable than Paula's. Actually, it should be his. Whitney's got more reliable than Paula's. Whitney, you feeling good?

[D]

I'm feeling all right.

[A]

I don't know, Jesse. I'm surprised that nobody thought it was more than a thousand bucks.

[E]

Like I said, like, the legal fines themselves, I thought, tend to be, like, kind of on the small side, like the judge fines you even today. Like, judge fines aren't that big. It's the.

[B]

It's like five or ten grand, and

[E]

I genuinely don't know.

[B]

Don't ask me how I know.

[E]

Is that the.

[B]

No experience?

[E]

Yeah. Is that what the legal fine is? I thought because I'd heard that it can be that expensive when you get a DUI, just like you said OG 5 or 10 grand, but my thought was, like, yeah, 95% of that is the attorney's fees for trying to prevent you from getting right.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

I'm.

[E]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

I don't know, G. Feeling confident?

[B]

I. I believe it's one of two things. It's either going to be an astronomical number because it's Johnny, or it's going to be a really small number because that's just what the book said back in 1982.

[A]

Or is it a tiny number because it's Johnny? Right.

[B]

No, no, no. They wouldn't give him a lower number because he was a celebrity. They either threw the book at him or did whatever the schedule said in the, you know, San Diego manual or wherever the hell he was.

[A]

Well, here are the scariest words in modern sports. Doug's about to let us know.

[C]

That's right, everybody. Hey there, Stackers. I'm finance Dungeon party master, and the guy whose safe word is liquidity, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. We're celebrating. But safely, Stackers. I've taken away OG's keys and his password manager so he can't drive or take a premature distribution from his 401k. I mean, nobody wins in either one of those cases. Nobody won when Johnny Carson was pulled over for drug driving in his DeLorean back in 82. When I first read this, I assumed he was trying to hit 88 miles an hour so he could go back in time, do that Doris Day interview he did back in 1974 all over again. Go look it up. Turns out he was originally stopped for an expired registration. The iconic talk show host had a blood alcohol level of 0.16, well over the 0.10 limit. Here was the question. Besides three years probation, how much was he fined? Well, I'll tell you this. It was $353 more than what Whitney guessed, $303 more than what Jesse guessed, and just $147 less than what OG guessed. The correct answer is $603, making the guy that causes cold breezes to come out the of. Of nowhere, the guy who makes babies cry when he gives them candy, the guy who hates puppies, the guy who must have the password to our scripts, because OG Always wins.

[A]

He's on a tear, Jesse.

[E]

He's on something. He has more points than there are weeks in the year, and two of us are trying to beat him.

[A]

The good news is, Stackers, if OG wraps us up by April, we got the rest of the year to do something else, start a different game like

[B]

Dormy and like June.

[E]

So I just wanted to check this out. Assuming that this is not a skill based game, that this is all just pure luck, what are the odds that someone would win six times in a row? It's 0.14%, 0.14. It's 14 and 10,000. That's how lucky.

[B]

That's how this isn't like golf handicaps. 20 years on you in terms of like it just life experience.

[E]

It's fair.

[B]

Sorry bud.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

You were alive in 1982 and I wasn't. I think that's.

[C]

Or Jesse, it's not quite as bad because he didn't win six in a row. He actually only won five.

[B]

But when somebody, somebody won for me

[C]

when Sarah Catherine was here, not only did she win for him, but she won the game show that we had that day. So she got an extra point for it.

[A]

It was that two for Sarah Catherine Gutierrez.

[C]

The odds are only like 1%, not point one.

[E]

That makes, that makes a lot more sense. Yeah.

[B]

Somebody goes like when Augusta Tiger proofed its course and just made it easier for him.

[A]

Charles in the comments with a golf analogy. Let's dive back in guys because we got some people that you know might not be financially savvy. Whitney, we'll go back to you. Let's talk about risk management because you know all you hear, especially when you're starting out. I remember thinking this, like insurances are evil. People that sell insurance are evil. How do you make a good. Like, what's a good way for a non financially savvy person to dive into the world of insurances?

[D]

Well, I think it's. Most of us are probably already doing that, so hopefully that gives you some peace of mind. You have car insurance. If you own a home, you have to have a mortgage insurance. There's different pieces of insurance that will help cover you, but the other portions is going to be a lot of situational dependencies. So I have properties. I have fire insurance on one of my properties in the mountains. That's not something I need on a different property. I have a child now. So life insurance is very important to me. When I was 20, it didn't really make any difference to me whatsoever. So I think it's getting to the point where whatever your stage of life is, you're going to probably have an idea of what types of insurance you need. If you're married and you combine money of some type and you depend on that income, you probably will need some type of life insurance. That's where it gets a little scary though, because there are so many bad characters in the financial world when it comes to that stuff. I would not use the strategy of just going with the person your friend recommended because they recommended them and immediately going and having a sit down conversation with insurance brokers. I would do your own research first and then start to reach out to at least three different people so you can understand personality types, sales pitches, and just get a good context of like what you're signing up for. And when you have three different people you're chatting with, you're going to start to pick up on some patterns and so then you can make the best decision for you. I think that's true for all insurance, but specifically life insurance. I'm a good old fan of term life insurance. That's just me personally. I really enjoy that and I think it's inexpensive for most people if you are to that stage where you have kids and families and you need to protect that income.

[A]

It's so funny, Jesse, when Whitney's talking about you talk to three different people. first I'm like, oh, that just seems cumbersome. But then I think, you know, I just bought a car, I bought it from a car dealership. I've done that several times. And because I've done it several times, you start to see loops in the sales strategies. Right. And you get used to the sales strategy and you can easily go, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, we're not going to talk payment. But that's because I've done it several times. So is it seems to me there's probably some truth in what Whitney's talking about. Go talk to three, four people. And yeah, it's monotonous, but it might be well worth the time.

[E]

Well, I think what both you and Whitney are pointing out to some extent is that when someone is in that bottom 50% of maybe financial know how or maybe they're just in a little bit of the bottom half of life know how. And I've got a great story on this front. There are times when you don't know you're being sold. There are times when you are just susceptible to a sales pitch and you're just totally unaware of it. I got sold a hot tub. That's my story. I wanted a hot tub. It's not like I didn't want a hot tub. I invited a hot tub salesman to my house. Clearly I was interested in a hot tub. Let's be clear. But I still remember this guy, once I read the book. There's a book called Influence by Robert Cialdini, famous psychologist. It's a great book about basically how sales tactics work. And this hot tub salesman, I only learned after the fact, used, like, every psychological trigger.

[B]

He gave you the copy, a signed copy of the book.

[E]

Yeah. Basically he said, thanks for the.

[B]

Thanks for the commission. I bought you a book.

[E]

Here, Here's a gift for you. And basically, my point is going back to the whole insurance sales. The idea of talking to three different people is maybe you can start to compare and contrast the different things they said. Maybe you can start to notice a pattern like, huh. All three of them said, you know, boy, sure would be bad if you left behind your entire family in destitution because you didn't have insurance and it made you feel a certain way and it probably compelled you to want to buy something. Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[A]

Halfway through that story, it's like, what does destitution have to do with a hot tub? Like, that's a hell of a sales pitch. You would watch your family to not have a hot tub.

[E]

So I'm Quentin Tarantinoing now and going back in timelines if you want me to talk about the hot tub. The one thing I do remember was this gentleman's daughter was in, like, dire financial straits. She couldn't make a college payment. He had promised her that he would help her make the next payment and that this sale of this particular hot tub would really help him. Not only would it answer my dreams, apparently, for owning a hot tub, but it would really help him out. So he was guilt tripping me a little bit. Anyway, we are all susceptible to sales. That's my point. That's the big point here. And so whether you're shopping for insurance or some other product, I mean, part of the reason for shopping around in general and not getting, like, overly committed to the one thing you want is that sometimes you're not really aware of how a sales pitch is subconsciously kind of influencing you. And it's helpful to be aware of that.

[A]

I had a similar thing, Jesse, when I was 16. I had this car that was so bad that the, you know, the. The ceiling fabric hung down. It wasn't even glued to the top anymore. Like, it was that bad. And I took the car in to get a new muffler, and the muffler salesman takes me to the back room where he's restoring a car and he's got this hot new engine. He's like, you Know that car you're working on could be like this. I went home with sports struts, with new shocks, new sport struts, and, like, the sport muffler on this piece of crap car. And what was funny was, was that the. The receptionist even. You know, Doug, back in the old days, these. These kids won't remember these days, but there was that big old phone book, and in the back, they had all of the coupons in the back of the phone book. The receptionist goes to the back of their phone book, receptionist at the muffler place while I'm waiting for them to work on my car. And she's like, here, honey, this is for you. And she's telling me that I'm getting ripped off by the dude without telling me I'm getting ripped off by the dude by trying to find me as much stuff. I remember going home to my dad and he's like, you were just going to get a muffler? Like, how'd you spend that much money? It was. It was.

[C]

Yeah. I've heard about those big, thick phone books, Joe. My grandparents told me about them.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, there it is.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

It only took us 46 minutes to get to that point. So I love the idea of. Of talking to three people. Oh, gee. Is there a way you talked with stocks about going back to the basics? Do you do this when you're teaching people about insurance? Like, a little bit about how insurance works to kind of bring them up to speed?

[B]

I can't get over the fact that Jesse is surprised that he got sold a hot tub when he invited a

[E]

hot tub salesman, telling you I was pretty green.

[B]

Like, did you invite him for, like, Thanksgiving and then you ended up with a hot tub? Or were you like, I need to learn more about that. But I will also tell you that your mind will only see what your ass is looking for. So just so you know, it was preordained you were getting a hot tub one way or the other, but that's okay. Hopefully you got a nice one. You still use it.

[E]

Sold the house and left the hot tub behind.

[B]

Yeah, you did.

[E]

Didn't use it enough. Didn't use it enough.

[B]

Yeah, but you've looking outside, I bet you wish you had one right now.

[E]

What do they say about, like, boats? Like, you want a friend with a boat, you don't want to own the boat yourself. Same thing with a hot tub. Everybody out there listening, Friend with a hot tub.

[B]

I don't know anybody that says that. Like, I want to go to My friend's hot tub.

[D]

Depends on the friend, right?

[E]

Maybe they're a good friend.

[B]

They better be a clean good friend. When was the last time you put this thing through? Chlorine? The other thing that wasn't mentioned here that I was thinking about, and not about life insurance or anything, but I was thinking about. But we just had our house renewal come through. Just whatever they send you, the big packet of stuff, first of all, nobody ever reads that. It's like, here's your policy. And you're like, cool, I guess. And you never know what's in there. What does this mean? How am I covered? What am I qualified for? What do all these numbers mean? Especially you think about house insurance. It's got dwelling and secondary coverages and secondary buildings and, and replacement costs and reimbursement costs and deductibles and like all these words that mean different things. Again, we look at them money nerds and we go, okay, yeah, got it. But you can use ChatGPT or Claude or Grok or something like that and say, here's this PDF. Explain this to me like I'm a bottom 50 percenter.

[A]

Oh, this I think, would be a great use of AI.

[B]

Absolutely it is. You know, what am I covered for? What am I not covered for? Using this information. If my house burns to the ground in a wildfire, do I get a new house? How much house do I get? One thing that I found out and not ashamed to admit this, we were shopping for insurances one time and I was talking to an insurance person and she said, well, I see, you know, I got your policy here and we're trying to, you know, beat the price, right? And she's straight up, she's like, I can't beat this price. And I was like, okay, well, I thought we had a pretty good deal. She goes, well, hold on before you go any further. How much do you think your house would cost to rebuild right now? And this was kind of COVID ish time. I was like, well, geez, with the supply chain and lack of workers and, you know, whatever, I suspect that's probably gonna be a little, you know, it's gonna be X dollars. She's like, well, you're covered for this. I said, no, no. It says here that this is what. She goes, no, no, that's not what that means. That means that they're gonna cover you up to this number. And how much do you own your house and how much do you think it's worth? And how much do you think it would cost to Rebuild, because those are all different numbers. And our house was insured for plenty to cover the mortgage and about a half of what it would cost to rebuild because we just accepted whatever the insurance company said and just had slowly increased. Well, the rebuild cost was way more. So it was interesting. Maybe this was a sales job, Jesse. What was interesting was we actually ended up with more insurance. But I felt better about it because I was like, okay, I now understand these numbers, and I know if something happens, we're more likely to be, you know, we're going to be covered at whole as opposed to. As opposed to others. So I would, you know, shop a couple places.

[A]

You felt educated.

[B]

Yeah, shop a couple places. That's great. But then, you know, ask for a sample policy. Ask for a sample declaration and say, like, I need to understand what these numbers mean and what these words mean. Just dump it in chat. Or just ask the person, hey, let's have a meeting and let me go through this with you. And they're going to be more cagey than ChatGPT would. But at least you can get a sense of what you're covered for and whatnot. Like jewelry, right? Whitney?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got any jewelry? Ladies like to have jewelry sometimes.

[D]

Did you see my sapphire over here?

[B]

I didn't, but you seem like somebody that has some nice stuff. Like, what's the coverage of jewelry on your house, on your regular homeowner's insurance, like a thousand bucks. It's not uncommon to have a engagement ring that's 5,000 or 10,000, you know, so know what all that stuff means and what you're. What you're really getting when you have it.

[A]

It's interesting, the question that OG poses about ChatGPT or using ChatGPT. Whitney. On the surface, I like that. But you work with people all the time when you're teaching classes. Do people even know the right questions to ask to use ChatGPT in a way that would make it helpful here?

[D]

I think it depends if we're talking about the. The lower 50%. Probably not. It's going to be a little bit harder to know what questions to ask. But you could even just put that into CHAT GPT and say, hey, I don't know what. I don't know what are some of the questions I should be asking? Yeah, but I think that's a good place to start. It certainly doesn't hurt to help with using, like, AI and just getting a better grasp of what things you should be looking for. But it is scary. You give a policy, a car insurance policy to an 18 year old and they're going to be like, what's the cheapest possible. That's what I can afford, you know, so it really does depend on your situation. But I would say, like, we, A lot of people do this often with health insurance too. We're kind of inherently weighing out the pros and cons between, do I do a higher deductible plan and get an HSA that I can then invest possibly, or do I just go for a low plan?

[A]

I'm sorry, what you just said right there.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Do I get a high deductible plan with an HSA where I can deduct, like, if I'm bottom 50%, I'm like, I have no idea what the hell you did. You swear?

[D]

And it would be right. That's. I think that's the exact. If you are finding yourself in the bottom 50% or if your kids are starting there and you're trying to teach them, try to use that really simple, simple language, use, chat, use technology that they're familiar with, for sure. But yeah, try not to complicate it too much. I think it can get really scary and overwhelming and then the inherent factors, we don't do anything and we just ignore it. Yeah.

[A]

The lingo just kills. Kills me sometimes that we use. Jesse, let's talk about estate planning. How do you help somebody who's not financially savvy realize they need an estate plan and go get one?

[E]

Yeah. The place where I might start. Might start is similar actually to the insurance conversation too. What goes back to one of Charlie Munger's big philosophies. One of his philosophies was inverted. Always invert. He stole that from a mathematician named Jacoby.

[B]

Top gun.

[E]

But the whole idea is that it's very easy if you're sitting there in the bottom 50 cent to be like, 50%. You want to say, like, how do I make my financial life the best as possible? Okay. Okay. That's a natural question you'd want to ask yourself. But what Munger would say is, turn that question upside down and it'll actually help you find the answer. How do you make your financial life as terrible as possible? Identify those behaviors that make it terrible and then do the opposite of those behaviors. So for insurance, especially if you're right, don't. Don't do them. Exactly.

[B]

Hot tubs.

[E]

Correct. I mean, seriously. But no, you know, Whitney was talking about. You said you have a child. Whitney. Right. You said you have a child now. Right. So it's scary to Think about. I. I've got a young child, too, but one thing that could put my family in financial jeopardy is if one of the two breadwinners somehow dies. Okay, that's something you want to avoid, or you at least want to avoid that risk that comes with that, and that's a reason to buy term life insurance. Similar on estate planning, there probably comes a point. I'm not quite sure I'm at it yet, but there comes this point where you say, you know, how do I avoid leaving my heirs with all this complexity? How do I put directions in place so that if, in the unlucky event that I die, they understand exactly which assets are going where, they understand who the guardians of my children are? Like all those really important things that might either save a headache or save something worse. Well, you. You put a clean estate plan in. Into play. Into place, in play. Maybe both. Point is, like, you. You think about these terrible outcomes you want to avoid, and you try to then enact some behaviors to prevent those outcomes. So that's how I would approach the estate planning. Estate planning question.

[A]

Oh, gee. Do you get any pushback from people when you're like, you know what? You don't have an estate plan. You need one. They're like, I don't. Why do I need that?

[B]

Well, usually when we're sitting in their hot tub and heat's on fire, enjoying a glass, all bets are off. When you're in the hot tub, I

[A]

feel like it's the shark and there was just a little blood in the water.

[E]

It's okay, though, because I just want to point out what Og identified. Whose hot tub was it? OG it was not yours. It was your friend's. You want a friend with a hot tub?

[B]

So to be fair, I kind of want to buy a sauna. Do you know a guy, Jesse?

[E]

I recently actually heard that the Costco sauna offering is terrific.

[B]

Oh, okay. All right. Set it up at your house. I'm gonna come visit.

[E]

I will disclose I am a shareholder. You didn't name Costco earlier. I'm a shareholder, but, please. I own this little fraction of Costco, and I have friends who do business there. So if you go do business and buy that Costco sauna, it will help my little share.

[A]

Margin call. Margin call.

[B]

I will hook you up, Jesse Kramer.

[A]

It is funny. We don't even have a Costco in Texarkana. But, Jesse, I know that. Like, I know I know that. How do I know that the sauna at Costco is a good deal, but you're not joking. It's all over the place.

[B]

I'm have to look this up. Is it a barrel?

[D]

So I think it's $3,999.

[B]

Can I put it on my Costco card and get for sure 5% cash back or go. So it's like a discount. It's like a free. It's like it might as well be free at that point.

[D]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Setting up your estate plan.

[B]

I like saunas better. Honestly. Your question was, you know, what do you do? I mean, look, if you want to be, if you're in a position that you need to have an estate plan and you don't have one and you don't want to do it, it's okay. That's on you. You're just an idiot. I can't help you. I would say that most people over complicate this stuff just like anything else. I like Jesse's way of looking at it from backwards. Like how do I, you know, how do I die basically is this perspective, you know, the same thing is true with estate planning. I specifically went through and put a lot of thought into hours, but I also communicated it with the people that I knew were going to have to facilitate this on the back end. And so like, there's a method to my madness. But the reality is, is that the government, much like everything else, already has an estate plan for you. So Joe, the answer to your question is like somebody needs an estate plan and doesn't have it. I would say, well, you already have one. You have the default plan which is provided by your county or your state. And for some people, and maybe for most people, that's going to be good enough, especially if you do an okay job of making sure the beneficiaries on your accounts are correct. Like who gets my stuff when I die? But I think a lot of people struggle with trying to, whether it's estate planning or anything else, like overcomplicate something that's relatively simple. Like the estate tax limit is what, 13 and a half million? It's more now. What is it?

[E]

I think it's 15 per person. 30. 30 for a couple.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I was in the ballpark. You're acting like I was wolfly short million.

[E]

What an idiot.

[B]

$1 billion. It's, you know, and so if you're in a, if you're in a relationship, if you're married with pretty normal planning, you get 30 million tax free, federal tax free. Okay. I mean, that really doesn't apply to, it doesn't apply to me. I don't know Whitney's net worth, but I can't. Why is that?

[A]

Because you're over there.

[B]

Doug's and Jesse's.

[A]

It doesn't apply to you because you got way more.

[B]

I'm just saying people like to sell complexity because complexity is. It's hard to argue with, right? Especially if you're like, you know, that bottom 75% or 50%, right? It's like, wow, that's really complicated. I think it's complicated to change the oil in my car. My brother is a mechanic. And it's like, are you absolutely crazy? What is wrong with you? Like, this is the easiest job I do at the shop. Like, this is. This takes me two minutes. I can do five things while I'm doing this one thing. How are you so dumb as to not do it? And we have to be careful because we're on that side of the equation. We have to be careful to say, oh, this is super easy. Just do the Roth ira. And then, you know, obviously, you just gotta max out. We were talking about 401ks earlier. I was thinking about one that I hear a lot is, no, I max out my 401k to the match, right? You go, hold on, wait. Max it out or you put in the match? Yeah, I max it out to the match. Okay? Those are two different words that are two different numbers. Probably the max is 24,500. If you're under 50, the match is probably 3%, 5%, 6%. Now, maybe your income is such that the max is also the match, which would be cool, but it's probably not. We look at this and go, oh, this is really easy for us to understand our job. And I think if you're one of the people that are listening or you're in the top 50% and you're trying to explain this to the bottom 50. You know, kids or parents, sometimes you're moving up the food chain, right? You know what's going on. But mom and dad, don't we have to be really careful to not. To not be. I mean, judgy is probably a little strong, but judgy with, like, what? You know, like, come on, come on, this is easy. You just do the estate plan and you have. You just max out your 401k and you just do the back door. Do the mega backdoor if you want. It's totally cool. And, like, pick the high deductible one with the HSA. And of course, you should do the 529, but make sure you use the 529 in your state with the tax deduction, but only up to the tax deduction amount. The rest you want to do in the other state because it's a lower. That's a lower expense ratio. Yeah, that all makes sense to the five of us. Yeah, well, four of us.

[A]

No, I remember this. Doug's like, I'm just sitting here.

[B]

All right. Doug wasn't even paying attention. I did. He's, like, zapping back in. Doug was sitting in Jesse's hot tub in his mind, going, this is nice daydreaming.

[C]

Our knees are tucked.

[A]

But I do remember this. I do remember this. In seventh grade, I was really struggling with math, and it was. My math teacher was really not good. And I remember asking him if he'd just leave this equation on the board up a little while longer. And he looks right at me and goes, no, no, you understand. This is just blah, blah, blah, blah. As he's erasing it. He's like, no, it's just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I just told you I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. And still. Oh, no, no. Super easy.

[B]

Is that when you turned into a janitor and then finally solved it when it was on the blackboard in the hallway?

[A]

I did. You saw my movie? The movie they based on My Life. It was so good. I think it won some major awards. Yeah. I think that brings up the point that I'd like us to cover last, which is this. I think, Whitney, a lot of the time when we're in that bottom 50%, we start experiencing some confidence issues. Right. I love where you said we should start, but I think part of this is also just gaining some confidence. What can you tell somebody who thinks they're not financially savvy that will help them gain confidence that, you know, like us? You can learn this, too.

[D]

I love this question, because it's something we. We all deal with anytime we jump into any new area, whether it's fitness or finance or anything. Parenting, that was something for me. I was drinking out of a fire hose. But what I learned was that confidence comes from.

[A]

I thought you were just going to end with, I was drinking.

[D]

I was just drinking. Don't we all do that when we're parents?

[E]

I mean, it's just Johnny Carson did.

[A]

Right, right.

[D]

Well, now we know the fee has gone up, too. We gotta be careful.

[E]

That's correct.

[D]

So bad. So I do think, though, that confidence comes from competence, and competence comes from experience. And so if we just focus on the experience piece and just doing the reps and getting comfortable with it. That's where true confidence comes from, in my opinion. But you have to really go through and it has to be from the experience piece first. It can't the other way. You're not going to be a confident investor if you've never done it before. In fact, it'd be weird if you thought you were a great investor and you've never invested before. That would be a little scary. I think that's where we really begin is just with the confidence and working on the experience piece.

[A]

Yeah, I love that the confidence comes. Don't be afraid to make a mistake. Most of what we do. Jesse Kramer isn't going to. Isn't going to kill you unless they say irrevocable on the paperwork. You're. You could probably unwind it, whatever you do.

[E]

Yeah, you got to experiment. You got to have a little skin in the game. I mean, that's something I think about for my own learning curve was having a little bit of skin in the game really inspired me to want to learn more and grow that experience and competence and then eventually confidence, like Whitney was saying. And I also just think it's so funny how something that came up, I think as OG was last speaking, was in that bottom 50%. We all kind of agreed today that it's like you don't know what you don't know. You're ignorant to your own ignorance, and that's really important. But then also in that top 10%, like, oh, gee, you pointed out, there's this thing, it's a recognized phenomena called the curse of knowledge. And it comes up in, like, teaching circles a lot, which is that once you're really experienced, you forget, or at least you can forget what it was like to have not known about something.

[A]

My seventh grade teacher.

[E]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so you end up using this jargon and then next thing you know, you're. You're leaving the people behind who have no idea what you're talking about. So it's almost like, I think when you're in that bottom 50%, you have to be willing to maybe expand your horizons a little bit and try to expose yourself to new ideas and learn these new. But then also, if you're listening right now and you are the experienced one in your friend group, let's say, and you're teaching your friends or you're teaching your kids about this stuff, you have to try to put yourself in their shoes and remember what it was like to be clueless. And put things in terms that they understand.

[A]

That should be a great place to leave it. But, oh, gee, can you learn all this while you're in a sauna?

[B]

I mean, probably. There's a lot of research to suggest that you get a lot out of sauna time. So just play a Stacking Benjamin's episode while you switch to the oldies.

[A]

That's a super place to put a

[C]

towel down first because I could just

[A]

imagine all of our stackers in the sauna sweating it out. Thank you guys for this fantastic conversation. Thanks to everybody who hung out with us on YouTube. You guys had some. You brought it today with some of the comments on YouTube. Let's find out what these brilliant contributor are of contributors, easy for me to say, of ours are doing this weekend. OG Last weekend in February. Can you believe it's the last weekend in February already? What do you got going on?

[B]

Yeah, time's flying. Absolutely nothing going on right now. We're kind of smack dab in the middle of spring sports for the kiddos. And yeah, it's fastly. Fast. Fastly. Very, very much fastly.

[A]

Very much be fastly.

[B]

I think very much be fastly approaching the end of the school year, which will transition us from having a non senior to another senior. So we are, we are on the doorstep of another senior season. That's kind of cool.

[A]

Time flies, man. Speaking of time flying and a fourth

[B]

grader, just to be clear.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Well, speaking of that, Whitney, I just still can't believe your daughter's 13 months old. That's just crazy. Talk about time flying.

[D]

Yeah, it is wild. It's, it's crazy how fast they really go. And everybody tells you that, but when you see them change so much every month, it's just that, like, stark reminder. You're like, oh, my God, I'm getting old and you're getting old. And this is sad. Like, it's just like a very, like, slow breakup. I've heard. And it kind of does feel that way.

[A]

Isn't it amazing though? Especially those first. Well, Jesse, you had this recently at your house as well. Just those first several months. It's not even month by month. It's day by day. Like you're watching them. Them just grow day by day. Just phenomenal. Are you.

[B]

There is a little bit of a lull between maybe age 8 and 18. But, you know, the first eight are pretty stellar.

[A]

I'm talking about the first like six months.

[B]

OG oh, yeah, I can agree. Then after six months, you're like, all right, this is.

[A]

Yes, yes. Jesse. Oh, oh, Whitney. We didn't finish. So what's going on at the Money Nerds? What's happening? What's coming up?

[D]

I'm working on an episode because spring is on my mind too of thinking about what are all the fun projects I want to tackle. So we're starting to put together a list of budget friendly projects that you can do that make a big impact on your house, but don't break the bank. And I'm looking outside and thinking about I need to finish staining my fence because that's a high impact thing that still needs to happen. So that's like an example of that too.

[A]

Jesse gets to do that in Rochester, New York, like during those, what, two weeks of summer in early August. Jesse.

[E]

Yeah, correct. There's about a one month window where you want to stay in your fence

[A]

goes out to stay the feds. And that's at the Money Nerds, Whitney, where the finest podcast are found.

[D]

That's it. It's themoneynerds.com we're on all the, all the podcast places. It's there.

[A]

All the places. Speaking of all the places, that's also where you'll find personal finance for long term investors. Jesse Kramer's awesome podcast. What's Going On, Jess?

[E]

Is it the 20th?

[A]

The 27th. Can you believe it? Already?

[E]

It is the 27th. I can. I literally am losing track of the weeks. So I recently released an episode. I'm kind of proud of it. I'm excited to see what the audience thinks. I titled it the Devil's Advocate Buys an Annuity. Because it's like annuities, right? Very controversial topics. I can't say I've ever really found an opportunity to recommend one, but I wanted to. Almost like steel man, as they call it. It's the opposite of a straw man. It's a steel man. And truly dig into the math behind an annuity and maybe the different types of annuities. And when, if there is a corner case when an annuity is the perfect thing for someone, for someone to own. Why? And like what are, what does that look like? I don't even know how long the episode is going to end up being, you know, 45 minutes to an hour of just nothing but annuities, just so that when some person in the future asks me a question about it, I can be like, yeah, go listen to this episode. So that's what's going on over on Personal finance for long term investors.

[A]

I love that. All the reasons why you should buy an annuity and you could just call it annuities. The hot tub of the personal finance product space.

[E]

Exactly right. Exactly right. You will be sold one and then you might regret it later.

[B]

The best annuity is the one that your friend has.

[E]

Hopefully there's a friend writer on it so when they die you can get the benefits.

[A]

Can you imagine the woman selling you the annuity going, you know, my daughter needs new shoes.

[B]

I'm going to use that next time. And if you look at this, I've got a kid. I can imagine that.

[E]

Jack.

[B]

Tuition's not cheap. It's like 25k a year. I mean if we can close this deal, this goes a long way to helping me pay my kids college tuition.

[A]

The whole personal pulled the heartstrings would be so horrible. All right, that's gonna do it for today. Thanks again for hanging out. We'll see everybody back here on Monday. Let's stack some Benjamins, shall we? Doug, you're gonna take it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's show?

[C]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Whitney. Not sure if you're in the bottom 50%, go to investor.gov to learn all the areas of personal finance where you're a complete idiot. Then dive in, learn a few things and you too can be slightly above average. I think she said that. Second, I love the point OG made when he said the thing about the homeowner's insurance. Make a PDF of your policy policy, upload it to chat. Let AI give you a layman's understanding of your insurance policy. But the big lesson, don't ask Jesse Kramer if he wants to play taxes Twister. Let's just say that guy plays fast and loose with the rules. Thanks to Whitney Hansen of Money Nerds fame for joining us today. You'll find the Money Nerds podcast at that lunch table in the corner where everyone's pants are pulled up along little too high and they're all talking about that time they almost had a date with a financial planner or, you know, wherever you're listening to us now. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Jesse Kramer for hanging out with us today. You'll find his podcasting party Personal Finance for Long term Investors. Wherever you find podcasts whose titles are so long they need punctuation. Thanks also to OG for two joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help. Head to stackingbenjamins.comog for his calendar. I'm not saying anything funny about him because he'll shove me in a locker again. This show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026, and is created by Josal Sehai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube, YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.