You've Got Enough Money to Quit. Should You? SB1752

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show — "You've Got Enough Money to Quit. Should You?" (SB1752)

Release Date: October 24, 2025
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy, OG, Doug
Panelists: Paula Pant (Afford Anything), Doc G (Jordan Grumet, Earn & Invest)
Main Theme: Rethinking Retirement — Exploring the Concept of "Reverse FIRE"

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Overview

This episode delves into the idea of "Reverse FIRE" (Financial Independence, Retire Whenever), inviting listeners to consider not just retiring early, but the value and joy that can come from working longer, even after reaching financial independence. Leveraging a Wall Street Journal article about Americans who keep working past age 75, the hosts and panel discuss the social, psychological, and financial benefits and drawbacks of extending one's career by choice, not necessity. The conversation is lighthearted yet insightful, seasoned with classic SB humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing "Reverse FIRE" ([02:25])

• The crew opens by referencing the "FIRE" (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement and various offshoots, then flips the script: What if, instead of plotting an early retirement, you choose to work longer—because you want to, not because you have to?
• Notable Quip:
  "Leave it to Stacking Benjamins that we're like, what if we do this whole thing backwards?" —Joe Saul-Sehy [02:25]

2. Why Keep Working After Financial Independence? ([09:56], [11:08])

• Purpose, Autonomy, Mastery:
  Paula Pant points to Daniel Pink's research, noting that if your work provides autonomy, mastery, and purpose, there's often no strong reason to leave. The issue for many isn’t the work itself, but the volume ("Maybe cut from 40 hours down to 20, 10, or even five" [09:56]).
• "If you can find things you love doing, that feel purposeful and happen to pay you money, there’s no hard and fast rule that says you have to retire by a certain age." —Doc G [11:08]

3. Financial and Practical Advantages of Working Longer ([12:48])

• OG breaks down the financial upside: Each added year of earning and not drawing on retirement savings makes reaching FI easier and allows more freedom in the present.
• "Just by having another five years of savings opportunity and five fewer years of drawing from your portfolio means that goal becomes so much easier to attain." —OG [12:48]
• OG humorously claims he’s aiming for age 140, just to see his kids turn 100 [14:03].

4. The Flexible Retirement Date – It’s Not All-or-Nothing ([15:04])

• The idea of "Reverse FIRE" reframes things: It’s less about retiring early and more about keeping your options open. "Remain engaged, do what you love, and work as much—or as little—as you like," summarizes the vibe.
• "Financial independence, whenever the hell you want, but remain engaged." —Joe Saul-Sehy [15:57]

5. Real-Life Examples: Redefining 'Work' in Later Life ([17:23])

• Paula shares a Wall Street Journal case study about an older photographer who "still works, but only two hours a week." The group discusses whether such minimal work still counts and agrees that rules are personal.
• "There are no rules when it comes to purpose. You just gotta enjoy what you're doing. So for some people that could be two hours, for others, forty." —Doc G [19:18]

6. Career Change & Encore Careers in Retirement ([21:00])

• Joe and the panel discuss the appeal of starting a new career at 65 or 70. Paula shares her own imagined "retirement career": founding an animal shelter [21:30].
• Doc G describes his own shift from medicine to personal finance writing and podcasting once he became FI.

7. “Second Stage” Intelligence—Older Workers’ Hidden Strength ([23:25])

• Referencing Arthur Brooks' ideas, the group notes that certain jobs become better with age due to accumulated wisdom (e.g., psychiatrist, teacher).
• "When you're older, you can synthesize between this wide... array. And that synthesis is often thought of as wisdom." —Paula Pant [24:06]

8. Potential Downsides & Unintended Consequences

A. Forgetting to Save Enough ([44:38])

• OG cautions that if you assume you’ll work forever, it’s easy to fall into the trap of under-saving, which is risky if circumstances change: "The biggest downside is the opportunity to be lazy about saving and investing." [44:38]

B. Not Exploring Other Joys or Hobbies ([48:26])

• Paula warns that habitual work can crowd out deeper exploration: "Not adequately exploring interests, hobbies, passions, curiosities outside of what conventionally be thought of as work." [48:26]

C. Loss of Flexibility & Risk of Identity Attachment ([49:19])

• Doc G notes: tying your identity and financial security to perpetual work can backfire if health, the job market, business conditions, or interests change unexpectedly.

D. Taking Up Space or Facing Ageism ([25:16])

• The panel discusses the potential challenge of ageism and whether working into advanced age limits opportunities for younger workers.

9. Work as Identity, Legacy, and Joy ([42:50], [41:21])

• Personal stories (OG’s grandfather, Doc G’s patient Eddie) illustrate how work can be a source of identity and community, but also a trap if approached reflexively.
• "He died that way. He died working, and he wouldn't have had it any other way." —Doc G [41:21]

10. The “Right” Answer Is Personal ([20:35], [19:18])

• Overarching message: There are “no rules”—the optimal path is individualized, shifting with circumstances and personality.
• "We love to have rules about how other people should live their lives. But the truth is, what do you want to do with your life?" —Doc G [19:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If you have autonomy, mastery, and purpose in your work, there’s no particular reason to leave." —Paula Pant [09:56]
• "Financial independence isn't necessarily the goal, it's just a really good tool." —Doc G [11:08]
• "By just eliminating that self-imposed number [retirement age], it's kind of a double win." —OG [14:03]
• "There are no rules when it comes to purpose. You just got to enjoy doing what you're doing." —Doc G [19:18]
• "If you've got all these things you want to do with your life, you should do do." —Doug [64:42]
• "The whole idea is to do all the stuff you want to do. If one of those things is work, then I think that's perfectly fine." —OG [16:46]
• "Whenever we decide to do something different, we have to step into the unknown. It's always emotionally easier to keep doing what you're doing." —Doc G [49:19]
• "If you can work with your boss on moving into different roles that suit you and where you can really help the company, great." —Joe Saul-Sehy [57:14]

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Quote | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:25 | Introduction to "Reverse FIRE" | | 09:56 | Paula: Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose in work | | 11:08 | Doc G: Reframing financial independence as a tool | | 12:48 | OG: Financial benefits of prolonging work | | 14:03 | OG: "My end date is 140..." | | 15:57 | Joe: "FI, whenever the hell you want, but remain engaged." | | 17:23 | Paula: Case study of a photographer working 2 hours/week | | 19:18 | Doc G: "There are no rules when it comes to purpose." | | 21:30 | Paula: Retirement as a second career, animal shelter ambitions | | 23:25 | Reference to Arthur Brooks: jobs suited for older adults | | 24:06 | Paula: Wisdom and crystallized intelligence | | 41:21 | Doc G: Patient story of dying while doing what he loved | | 44:38 | OG: "The biggest downside is the opportunity to be lazy about saving and investing." | | 48:26 | Paula: Caution on missing out on non-work interests | | 49:19 | Doc G: The emotional challenge of leaving work | | 64:42 | Doug recaps the 3 big takeaways |

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Tone & Style

As is trademark on Stacking Benjamins, the tone is witty and affable, balancing functional personal finance insights with humorous banter and pop-culture references. The panelists are generous about making space for self-exploration and counterpoints, fostering a sense of financial "permission" for listeners to design their own path.

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Takeaway Action Items

1. Do what you want; there are no right rules:
   If you love working, keep working—but don’t neglect hobbies or relationships.

2. Don’t let extended career plans excuse poor saving:
   Even if you think you’ll work forever, things change—so save for flexibility.

3. Redefine what “work” looks like:
   Part-time, encore career, consulting, or shifting to roles that ignite your passion—make it your own.

4. Recognize the value of age and wisdom:
   Certain jobs and perspectives ripen with age; embrace career transitions that leverage your experience.

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Closing Thoughts

The episode affirms that the “optimal” financial path is deeply personal. For some, early retirement is the dream. For others, extending work—on your own terms—can bring meaning, structure, and community. The key is designing a flexible life and financial plan that lets you pivot as your circumstances, abilities, and desires evolve.

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For detailed show notes, resources, or to connect with any of the featured panelists, visit StackingBenjamins.com.

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Trivia Winner:

• Paula Pant, for correctly guessing the year the U.S. Navy debuted the T-shirt: 1913. [38:17]

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Transcript

[Joe Saul Sehi]

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[Paula Pant]

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[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Can you fly this plane and land it?

[OG]

Surely you can't be serious. I am serious.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

And don't call me Shirley. Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And you've heard of financial independence? Retire early, AKA the fire movement, right? Well then there was Coast Fire, where you save enough to get on track. Barista fire, where you take on small jobs. And even my personal favorite Dumpster fire where you have absolutely no clue what you're doing. Today we're expanding that on envelope and asking our panel of financial enthusiasts about reverse fire.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

What is it?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Well, stick around to find out. And you know what else you'll find out? Who's gonna win today's installment of our year long trivia competition. That's what. And now a guy who learned reverse with his money before finding first gear. It's Joe Saul Se High.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Hey there stackers and happy happy Friday. So happy that you're here. Welcome to another edition of the Stacky Benjamin show. I am Joe Saul Sehi and I can't wait to talk about this because of course Doug, everybody else talks about how important the fire movement is. Leave it to Stacky Benjamins that we're like, what if we do this whole thing backwards?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Wait a minute, we've got a different thought.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

What if we look behind us and go the other way? It's going to be fun. So strap in everybody. Get ready for a wild ride because we're going to introduce the team that helps us on Fridays with these discussions. Starting with the gentleman across the card table from me. Oh, geez.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Here.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

How are you, man?

[OG]

Back away from the camera.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, heyo.

[OG]

Hey. I'm right here. Take a step back.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Super happy that you're here with us. And he's getting it all together. And the woman in Manhattan, high above Manhattan, Paula Pant is here from Afford anything. How are you?

[Paula Pant]

I am so happy to be here. I can't wait for today's discussion. We got a good one.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You just like Friday in reverse. Actually, it's Friday. We want to go forward to Saturday, don't we?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. You know, but if you love your work Friday, you just want to be in the present forever.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We're going to talk about how great that is to extend the Friday and even because these are older people that we're going to be talking about too. Is that extending Friday like extending the autumn of your life?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I mean, autumn, I think is. It's my favorite season. It's. It's, in my opinion, the best season of the year. You know, sweater weather.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It is sweater weather. You know what? And we had a great autumn the year we found out that we were having twins, which is why my daughter's named Autumn. True story. And then, because they're twins, then my son goes, oh, that's a great story, dad. How did I get my name? And we go, yeah, we like the name Nick.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

I miss my finger on the corner of the cabinet.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And there was this beautiful, like, every day, it was beautiful. Things were going well for Cheryl and I. And then we found out we were having twins. We're like, this is so cool. Let's remember this forever. Autumn. Oh, that's great. That's fantastic. And me, you know, Nick's along for the ride, and a guy who's never along for the ride, he brings it every time he's on the show. From our brother, show and invest. Doc G. Jordan Grumitz here. How are you, man?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

I'm doing well. Man, all this talk about going in reverse. I'm remembering my days of driving stick shift. Like, I used to have a stick car, and I really enjoyed it. And it's been years, been years, but would you like.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I had to drive a stick shift in Europe for the first time in a long time. And on this particular car, this Renault that we were renting, I could not find reverse to save my life. Like, I kept putting it in first gear and it was. It was bad.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

And maybe that is apropos. Of our conversation today about reverse fire, maybe that is.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We are live on YouTube. If you want to hang out with us like all the cool people hanging out with us right now, come join the conversation. We generally record on Monday afternoons. If you get the 201, we send you an email that tells you when we are going to be recording. And we've got a few people hanging out here with us. B. Wayne is here. Rylan Felner is here. K. Sands is here. Annette is here with us. And Annette says her friend just found out she's having twins. That's what happened to my hair, Annette. It's long gone because of the twins, but I'm very happy. Jordan, you didn't have twins, but you.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

I didn't have twins, but my daughter for sure. My second kid. That's when all the hair disappeared.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, here's what we're going to talk about is making sure your money doesn't disappear, but also your life. You know, some people retire on time from jobs that they think that they love and then they miss it later, right? People say this is research, according to retirement researcher Ken Dykewald, that the Average person spends 18 months in total bliss when they first retire. And then after 18 months, many people have the deepest, deepest depression of their entire life after that. Do you avoid that by just continuing to work? Is reverse fire a thing? Is that there's a lot of reasons why you might continue? Well, the New York Times talked about this, so we're going to dive in with them and with Paula, og, Doc G and Doug. But before that, we've got a couple of sponsors who make sure we can keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them. And then let's talk about retirement in reverse. Is it better to just keep on working? This episode is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. Buying a car could be like a long road trip. There's negotiating prices, lots of fees and a difficult process. But with the auto loan from Navy Federal, you're on the highway to higher savings. We want our members to save more on their next auto purchase. That's why we offer great rates, military discounts and pre approvals that are good for 90 days. Plus, we offer most decisions in seconds. You could even get $200 when you refinance your auto loans from another lender with us. So if you want to save more on your next auto purchase, learn more and apply for an auto loan@navy federal.org Autoloans Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval. Terms and conditions apply for military discounts. Refinance loan must be at least $5,000 to be eligible for the $200. Terms and conditions apply. Visit Navy federal.org autoloans for details.

[Paula Pant]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meeting or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, thanks to OG during that break sharing with me that I got the publication wrong. This is from the Wall Street Journal. OG I tried to tell you that over and over.

[OG]

My bad apologies.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And I should have known because it's written by two fantastic authors and Tergeson and Veronica Dagger, who we quote here a lot on the show. And the piece that we're riffing on was called what it's like to Retire in America after age 75. Which frankly is what led me to believe about this idea of reverse fire. Ann and Veronica Wright Lifespans are getting longer. So are many workers careers. Almost 9% of Americans 75 and older, 9% working or looking for work last year, up from 6% two decades earlier, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And the share between 65 and 74, well, that rose to 27% of people in 2024 versus 22% back in 2004. The government estimates these percentages will rise more along with the aging population. So this, this got me thinking. In your financial plan, what if we decided just in our plan that we wanted to work longer? I mean, Paula, people talk about the benefits of retire early, right? What are the positive reasons to just say, forget it, I'm not retiring.

[Paula Pant]

But the studies, research shows that autonomy, mastery and purpose, if you have those three qualities in your work, you are likely to enjoy your work. You have a sense of purpose by definition because that's one of the three. You have autonomy and you have the ability to develop mastery in the thing that you're doing. If you have that in the work that you're doing, there's no particular reason to leave. And I certainly understand that for many people it isn't the type of work they're doing, but rather the volume of work they're doing. You know, it's working 60 hours a week or, or even 40 hours a week as opposed to maybe 20 or 10, or heck, even five. But perhaps there comes a time when you cut down on that volume so you can make space for other things in your life, but you hang on to the work itself because it provides you with mastery, autonomy and purpose.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

One of those things, Doc, I know this guy who wrote a book a little bit about purpose. I mean, you see for some of these people, in fact, Veronica and Ann write this at the beginning, that maybe your work feels like it's your purpose, like it's your reason you're here. Why quit?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

I think a lot of us who got caught up in the fire movement, especially early on financial independence, retire early. It was the solution to a problem. And the problem was we didn't like our jobs and we felt a lack of some of that autonomy, mastery and purpose. And the answer was to accrue enough money so that it could be invested wisely and it could support you. What we're realizing is that maybe financial independence isn't necessarily the goal, it's just a really good tool. And so if you can find things you love doing, find things that feel purposeful and they happen to pay you money, there's no hard and fast rule that says you have to retire by a certain age or that you even have to get financially independent by a certain age. So it might be very reasonable for you to make the decision, make the trade off that I'm going to work a little bit less or I'm going to move to a job that feels purposeful and slow down my path to financial independence. But then maybe I'll continue working until I'm 75 or 80, especially if I can afford to do it less hours because I'm going to extend my work longevity. And so I think we're really changing how we think about these things. The goal is to live a great life. That may have to do with doing jobs in which you make money, or it may have to do with doing jobs in which you don't make money. But that's the goal, not necessarily hitting some financial independence number.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And it's interesting that the financial independence number might be the, the piece that you're not worried about. It's much more about what you do with your life. And yet, oh gee, I think if you can put together a plan where there's an income stream coming in for a longer period of time, the financial benefits and your ability to maybe build intergenerational wealth becomes so much easier.

[OG]

Well, when you think about this self imposed retirement date, whether it's 55 60, 65, whatever. And I understand completely that there's plenty of places that are. It's not self imposed, it's contractual. You know, if you work for the government or you work in law enforcement, they have certain retirement dates, but they come with different benefits too, generally speaking. Or if you're, you know, an airline pilot, you have a certain, you know, I'll say expiration date, that's not the right phrase, but you have a certain date that you can no longer fly commercial jets. But for the rest of us, assuming that you have some flexibility in that, just by having another five years of savings opportunity and five fewer years of drawing from your investment portfolio means that goal becomes so much easier to attain. You know, Jordan talked about it for just a second ago, he said the whole idea is to have a good life. And having a bunch of money when you're 50 could be a good life or it could mean that from 30 to 50 you didn't do anything and life sucks really bad. So it's a balance between those things. I've very much, it's somewhat, a little tongue in cheek, but I still think there's a chance I could pull it off. I have said that my end date is 140, and the reason that I pick 140 is because I want to see my kids turn 100. I just think that would be super cool and then also have another year with them after that. But it also, honestly, when you think about it in those timeframes, you go, well, it's okay that I'm just saving 10% in my 401k. I mean, my God, I'm only going to be 48. I've got 90 years to go. You know, I have all this time to get there. And we all know people that have worked well into their 70s and 80s. And my grandfather worked until he was in his 90s. I mean, he wasn't laying brick in the hot sun. Work, you know, that's different too. So I think if you look at it purely from a number standpoint, if you eliminate that self imposed, well, I got to retire when I'm 60 or I want to retire when I'm 65. If you just change that number to 70 now, you have that much less that you have to save every year, which frees up life today. And you have that fewer dollars going out for those five years from 65 to 70. So now you don't need as much in your bucket when you get to 70 to begin with. So it's kind of a double edged Good sword. I don't know. I don't know how to say that. You know, a double win. There we go.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Double.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

A double win. Yeah.

[OG]

A double edged win. I don't know.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

A double. And I also think, you know, I kind of tongue in cheek thought about this idea of reverse fire, right? I'm just not gonna, I'm not gonna leave at all. And, But I think even fire advocates.

[OG]

Really, we do want you to leave someday. Please, please do not get the wrong idea here.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Really, it's okay.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Joe, at the end of this episode, we'd like to have a talk with you and an HR person's gonna come, but financial. You know, over the past decade, fire movement advocates, I've kind of felt the movement change where instead of financial independence, retire early. Really, most of the heat is on financial independence, right? Get the financial independence earlier. And if we talk about reverse fire og, I feel like it's the other side where instead of the re, it's like financial independence whenever the hell you want, but remain engaged. You know, maybe change those two letters up.

[OG]

Well, I don't know. I have no desire to work when I'm 85. Although I don't know, to Paula's point, maybe I just need to find something that I find really super inspiring. But by the same token, as long as you have the flexibility or designing your life as best as you can to do the stuff that you want to do and eliminate the things you don't want to do, it's really about just kind of that whole system, you know what I mean? It's like if I'm not missing out on kids games, right? Some people say, well, I want to be done with this nonsense so I can go to my kids softball games. Okay, well, that's, you know, that's aspirational. You should work toward that. But if you already do all those things and you go on the trips that you want to go on and you support the people and places and things that you care about and you are doing things for other people and you're, you know, stretching your brain and you're being able to, you know, and all these things are great. Like what, what else do you want to do? Like, like you want to take away those things and now we'll just, what, sit on the couch for the next 20 years. The whole idea is to do all the stuff that you want to do. So if you're doing all the stuff that you want to do, and one of those things is, and I'm also going to work, you know, Then I think that's perfectly fine.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

The key there, I think, is. Is do. Right. There's always things I want to do well. Do, don't, don't just sit. Paula, there's a bunch of case studies in this piece, and obviously our stackers don't have it in front of them, but are there any of these stories that really light you up?

[Paula Pant]

But there was one that made me laugh, and it was a story of a photographer who technically is still working, but he works two hours a week.

[OG]

Oh, hey.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, easy there.

[Paula Pant]

When I read that, I was like, can. Can he even be included in this article? Like, can you really say that you're still working when you work two hours a week? But I don't know, maybe you can, you know, so that was sort of what I was alluding to earlier when I talked about how if you enjoy your work, maybe you're reducing from 40 hours down to 20 or 10 or five. Or in this guy's case, two. Two, right.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That's interesting though, Paula, because. So he's a photographer. He has the ability to still see beauty and snap those shots, like two hours a week. Is that enough for remain engaged?

[Paula Pant]

The first thought that entered my mind is if you're trying to get clients who will pay you, I mean, even if you were just doing the most passive inbound. I've got a website up and I'm only going to respond to inquiries I'm not going to actively solicit. It still seems like it would come in waves. Like, I would imagine that there would probably be a few weeks of zero followed by a few weeks of four. Yeah. Yeah.

[OG]

Well, it's wedding season or it's not. Right? That's kind of what you're saying, Paul. It's like, you know, it's senior picture time or it's Mother's Day. It's those sorts of things. If you're a photographer. Right. There's gonna. It's holiday cards nobody sends out. Really. Halloween cards.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Shane laying down some smack OG in the. In the mom's basement. Says two hours a week. He must be a podcaster in his mom's basement.

[OG]

That's what I said earlier when we were off camera.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I work it two hours.

[OG]

The amount of time Joe works every week.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Crazy. You need to get me up from my nap just for this doc. You've studied purpose a good amount. Two hours a week. Enough time to chase his purpose if it's photography's attached.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah. I mean, there are no rules when it comes to purpose. Right. You just Got to enjoy doing what you're doing. So for some people that could be doing photography for two hours, where for someone else that might be doing it 40 hours a week, I think we make way too many rules. And maybe this goes for the whole concept of reverse fire too. I think we love to have rules about how other people should live their lives and what should be work or not work for them. But the truth of the matter is what do you want to do with your life? And we have a limited amount of time on this earth and we also have a financial framework which we have to build and support. And so we get to juggle those things like how much money do I need versus how much time freedom do I want. And there are some people who are lucky enough that find something that they both like doing even when they don't have to do it anymore, that also makes them some money. And so I think if you're one of these people who's either found that perfect solution a go for it, or you're someone who says, well, I don't mind work that much and it helps me economically to still make money, I can take that extra first class flight or I could have, I stopped 10 years ago working full time and I only worked part time. But I can do that because I'm going to continue working for the next five years. Whatever the trade off is, I think the hard and fast rules, whether it comes to purpose or whether it comes to work, they just don't, we don't need them.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I totally agree, which is why I was thinking, Doc, while you're talking about this question, is there value in than you know, because I'm thinking of somebody who's walking the dog listening to us right now and they're going, there's no way in hell I would do what I'm doing right now forever. Like, forget this, this, this does not resonate with me. Is a horrible idea.

[OG]

You've been reading my diary again.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And a lot of the people you know, and there's a lot of people out there who like their job. But, but certainly there's an end date where they're like, cool. But is this an idea that resonates enough where talk about breaking the rules, you go, you know what? I'm gonna stop doing the thing that I'm doing now and I'm going to start doing something else at age 65. I mean, I got 25 years to get good. If I go from 65 to 90, I got 25 years for a whole another career. If I Want. Paula, you're nodding your head.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

I actually have in my head a backup plan for, you know, if I decide that I'm done with all of this. I do have in my head what my retirement career would be, and it's running an animal shelter. I've always thought that it would be in a different life. I probably would have been a veterinarian. And so since I'm not, I always thought, you know what? Maybe I'll do this until I'm 70. And then when I'm 70, I'll start a second career, and I'll use my money to create an endowment that funds a small animal shelter, and I'll open that animal shelter.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah, I don't think this is an academic conversation. I mean, in a sense, in 2018, I started my encore career, right? So podcasting, writing, public speaking are all things I started doing once I didn't need to make money anymore once I was financially independent. So, I mean, if I did that in my late 40s, I can't imagine why you wouldn't also do that in your 50s, 60s, or 70s. Especially when you get to the point financially where you're secure enough, you're like, well, maybe I want to make some income to support me economically, but I don't need to make nearly what I was making in the midst of that career that I built all those years, you know, becoming proficient at and building up my salary. You know, maybe now you can make a quarter of that, but try something new and do something you love.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I think about this idea. OG have you read Strength to Strength, Arthur Brooks? No.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah, maybe that's a no.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Haven't gotten that one yet, Doc. Have you read it?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

I haven't read it. I'm familiar with a lot of the concepts, but I haven't read it.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

No, I read Arthur Brooks's book on happiness, and I interviewed him about fluid intelligence versus crystallized intelligence. I don't know if that was what he wrote about in Strengths Scoreboard.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I. I interviewed him over there, and.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Then I went to on vacation with him.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Arthur, in this book, Strength to Strength talks about how there are some jobs which are better when you're young and then you hang on because of the way that your brain works. And then as you get older, there are jobs where age is. Is the win. In fact, the first piece that Anne and Veronica talk about is this guy, Merl Manley, and he's a psychologist, psychiatrist. Excuse me. And he. He retired at age 76, but he still thinks he's Going to continue to work because he sees in this job, age is a strength. Being 76 years old, age being. He could tell people based on life experience, Paula, what he's thinking.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. And that kind of pairs perfectly with what Arthur Brooks has talked about with fluid intelligence versus crystallized intelligence. His thesis is essentially that when you're young, mental activities that require, like, just sheer computational horsepower, doing really, really difficult mathematical problem sets. Those are the types of things that you're really good at when you're 28. Whereas when you're older, you can synthesize between this wide interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary array. And that synthesis is often thought of as wisdom. And so anything that requires wisdom, which includes teaching, is something that really naturally fits with the older brain.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You got to think, though, if you're going out looking. I want to. I want to. We're going to talk about the negatives of this idea of reverse fire in a second. But I also have to think that going to try to find a new job at 65 or 70. There's enough ages emoji in the. In the workplace that people might look at you strangely and go, I think you probably have to be prepared for that. People going, yeah, you're. You're how old? 82.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

I think it's. Yeah, I think it's. I'm going to interject here, Joe. I'm a little concerned that you asked the guy who repeatedly makes fun of how old you and I are about ageism.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, that's because the lawsuits.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

The biggest perpetrator of the lawsuits. Let's ask him.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

The lawsuit is pending, Doug. So I'm trying to get him on tape so we can.

[OG]

When I was talking to Gertrude today about something, she asked me for my birthday because we needed it for some paperwork. And I told her, and she goes, oh, you're such a baby. I said, I know. That's what I keep telling these guys. What was that movie with, Golly, Anne Hathaway and Robert De Niro?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, that's a great film where he. Fantastic film.

[OG]

He's a new assistant, the senior citizen, like going back to be an assistant. Good flick, you know, kind of a feel good story there. But I think, you know, like what Paula was talking about or Joe, what you were saying there around. You know, there's different periods of your life where, you know, you need like the brute force strength, right. You got to be able to power through stuff. And then there's the period of time where your collective or total experience is really the valuable thing. The Life story. It's like the physician or the surgeon who's had 10,000 surgeries of the same thing versus the person that had one or two. Like the new doc has got tons of energy and can stand on his feet for 20 hours and do the surgery, but he's only seen one thing, you know, and then some curveball gets thrown at him or her. It's like this is a different. I don't know what to do with it. The doc that's done 10,000 of them goes, all right, I remember this back in aught seven, you know, I had to do this with a pair of scissors. You know, we don't have no robots back then, you know, or whatever. So with a pair of scissors, like there I was minding my own business at the airport.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I did this with a spatula.

[Paula Pant]

And they were rusty too.

[OG]

Yeah, they were rusty.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Pair of scissors.

[OG]

They all died of dysentery. But you know, you're probably not going to be the bricklayer at 82, but you might be able to be the designer of the landscape plan in 82 because you have all the experience. I certainly can't speak to the ageism thing. I know it happens and I don't have a solution around it either because human nature is human nature. Right?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah. I just think you got to be ready for that if you decide to take this on. Carrie got us the name of the movie. It's a 2015 film called the Intern.

[OG]

Oh, the Intern, of course.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Very, very good movie. Paula, you look like you're trying to say something.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, no, no, I was still thinking about that rusty pair of scissors and just how far we could take that. Well, covered in fecal matter.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Time to put Doug away from that.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Wow.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Too soon. Maybe always too soon at the halfway point of every show. And by the way, before we get to that, the second half of this, as I mentioned, we're going to talk about unintended consequences, the downsides of planning on reverse fire. If you think that this sounds great for you, we will jump into all of that. But at the halfway point of every Friday show, we have this year long trivia competition between our usual suspects, which are Paula Og and Jesse Kramer, our resident fill in Doc Chi here. Today you're playing on Team Jesse, which I know you've been way, way, way far away in Bali, so you haven't listened to any of the show for a while. Guess what happened? Jesse Kramer is in the lead doc.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah, yeah, I must be hallucinating still from some parasite I got while I was involved.

[OG]

Rusty scissors.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah, I don't quite believe that. That I. I don't think I heard what I just heard.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, Doug, what's the score right now? Is we only have maybe What, a good 10 weeks to go.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Does this mean I have to go first? I always have to go first.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You have to go first.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Somehow I always have to go first.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

It comes down to you going first because you have hitched your wagon to Jesse's rising star. He is leading the pack with 12 1/2 points. OG did close the gap last week and he is up to 12 points, just a half point shy of you. And Paula, well, she did not close the gap. She is still at 8 1/2 points.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Wait a minute. 9F 10F. 11. Doug, if she wins like almost half of the things coming, she's got this.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Hey, Paula, don't let them make fun of you. Paula, don't let them make fun of you. If I was a regular, I'd be like two.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, wait, I thought these were golf rules where the lowest score win.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Wait, what?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

After all these years, isn't this match play?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, well, that's, that's the story. We need the actual story for this week, which is, Doug, what's happening on today's date in history.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And on today's date in history, the Navy, the United States Navy introduced a white shirt to go under your uniform. These crew neck white shirts were called T shirts. And soon it became common to see soldiers and then later field workers and factory employees sporting them at work and in everyday weekend life. Maybe with a tight fitting pair of jeans and some work boots. Muscles rippling beneath the shirts and the sun. I mean, I digress. But anyway, here's today's question. What year did the US Navy debut the T shirt? I'll be back. Ready for a great go change into mine. I better plant that imagery in your head. This trivia talking, it's real work. And I, I got rippling muscles that need to glisten in the sun with a simple white T shirt.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We go back to feal covered rusty scissor talk.

[OG]

No, no.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right, Jordan, you are first up. Navy debuted the T shirt in what year?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

I'm going to take a leap, which I'm really good at doing and say that it also probably didn't hurt. Maybe it was right during kind of like the stock market crash.

[OG]

It says the 1100s. I'm just going to lose my mind.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

And the depression and the stock market crash. And maybe they didn't have a lot of money and a T shirt was less material. Right. So I'm going to say 1932.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

1932. Yeah. It turns out, OG the real date is year of our Lord 1157. The US Navy, AD AD BCE right.

[OG]

After the Magna Carta.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That's what OG knows. That we might have come up with an alternate answer.

[OG]

Oh. So I'm up. So I'm picturing all those old time, you know, World War II photos of all the service members, you know, in their dress uniforms or. Or in their working uniforms when they're on the ship or whatever. And I'm picturing no T shirts in World War II. So I. I think Doc G is a little early to the ball game here. I'm going to say right around World War II ending and let's go. Yeah. Because it was, you know, before. Okay, so I'm going to say 1947.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

47. So we've got 1932.

[OG]

Happy birthday to the U.S. navy. Their birthday was just a week ago.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Paula, you've got 32 from Doc G. And 47 from OG Ooh.

[Paula Pant]

So I'm thinking about the television show the Gilded Age. There was definitely nobody wearing a T shirt on that.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

That you could see.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And if you're new to stacking Benjamins, so many things that our contestants have said during trivia doesn't help.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Then I'm thinking about watching Star wars, and nobody in the future was wearing a T shirt either, and that doesn't help.

[Paula Pant]

I'm feeling early 1900s, so I'm gonna take the under and go with 1931.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

1931. Oh, poor Doc G got cut off at the knees. But Doc still got halfway between 32 and 47, so not done yet. We'll see. Is it before 1931, between 32 and 47, or after 1947? Find out. Just a moment.

[Paula Pant]

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[OG]

Shopping is hard, right? But I found a better way. Stitch fix online. Personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want, no subscription required. And he sends just for me, pieces plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy. Make style easy. Get started [e-mail] Spotify that's stitchfix.com Spotify.

[Paula Pant]

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[Joe Saul Sehi]

Doc, you start off the guessing by saying 1932. Now that all the guesses are in, what are you thinking?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

I'm thinking I can't be last because Paula was kind enough to write go below me. So I'm feeling pretty about the fact that I won't be last.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You're not even playing for first. You're playing for second. Hey, it's.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

What's what I like to call Reverse trivia. It's called reverse trivia.

[OG]

Well done, sir.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Instead of going for first, I go not to be last.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I'm so proud, Ma. Guess what, Ma? I didn't suck the worst.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

It's the baby steps. The baby steps.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, gee, you've got everything north of 1947.

[OG]

So.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Feeling good?

[OG]

Yeah, I'm picturing. I certainly, you know, you can picture the service members in Vietnam, right? Wearing the drab green T shirts, doing the thing. Korea, to me seems it was too chilly. They were just all wearing like winter clothes. I picture World War II vets with their, you know, they got the shirt on has the big V and they don't have a T shirt underneath that. Unless it's like a, you know, like a sleeveless low cut T shirt. It's not just a regular crew neck. So I feel pretty good.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Seem to think a lot about service members in their T shirts.

[OG]

OG I do, actually. Absolutely. So think about our service members and men and women every day.

[Paula Pant]

Okay.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, Paula.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

And scissors. And scissors.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

And scissors.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Paula, you apparently think those low cut V neck T shirts were before 1931.

[Paula Pant]

Wow. While I'm imagining Gold Rush, I'm imagining I don't know. I'm imagining turn of the century. I'm imagining that big earthquake in San Francisco. I don't know why I associate T shirts with that, but, like, feels like you might have worn a T shirt for the occasion.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

If there were ever a time, duck for people to have a T shirt, it would have been during the San.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Francisco earthquake, but definitely after the Gilded Age. Somewhere between the Gilded Age and the San Francisco earthquake, that's when people started rocking those white T shirts.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Who's bringing this home, Doug?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

I am, Joe. Hey there. Stackers on T shirt lover and guy who loves funny sayings, Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Over the years, the simple white T shirt has become a staple of everyday wear, eventually moving to many different colors and after iron ons, adding whatever ridiculous things you wanted to say. Print it right on your chest. There's an innovation for you. Here's an exception. I remember this one super innovative podcast. They actually put their name of the podcast right on a T shirt.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

How funny is.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Wait, we do? Do we do that? I don't know if we've done that, but how brilliant would that be? There's an innovation for you. Here's today's question. What year did the U.S. navy on today's date, debut the T shirt? Well, here's what I can tell you. It was 34. Four years before OG's Guests of 1947. It was 19 years before Doc G's Guests of 1932, and just 18 years before Paula Guest of 1931, because correct answer is 1913. Making inexplicably Paula, our winner.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Can everybody explain to me what just happened? What just happened?

[OG]

Wow.

[Paula Pant]

I think. Well, you know what? Watching TV pays off. I mentally anchored to the Gilded Age and then said. And then said it would have been sometime after that, which is why you.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Went before everybody else. This is what's going on with her brain when it comes to trivia. Everybody. Congratulations.

[Paula Pant]

Well, thank you. Closing the gap. Closing the gap.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And it's funny, og, because I do remember T shirts, but only in the Pacific Theater. I remember seeing people when it was really hot in the Asian Theater war. Where.

[OG]

When you were there personally?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

No. Please, no. Just watching. Watching the. Not the Gilded Age, but the Pacific.

[OG]

There I was watching Band of Brothers, thinking to myself, these guys are all wearing T shirts.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

They're all wearing. This will come in handy someday.

[OG]

This is an important little piece of info.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Nice bright white T shirts on the front line so they can blend in.

[OG]

I don't think they Were bright. Oh, you said the navy ones were white, right?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

They were white, yeah. They started off as these white crew neck T shirts going underneath the uniforms. Hey, let's dive into the second half of this discussion because we talked about the positives and certainly there are some negatives, starting with the fact that. And. And I want to scroll up because someone said this in the comments, and I think it's a great place to start. Which is from Rylan Felnar, hanging out with us Said. And Doc will give this to you, Rylan. I'm going to present this one in a maybe more funny way. I saw this as a video one time, an older guy Doc saying, you know, forget about more time with my family. What I regret on my deathbed is that we didn't hit enough KPIs in our marketing department. That's what I regret.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Well, you know, you laugh and I'm going to tell a story and I'm going to use the person's real name. I actually told this story in my first book, Taking Stock, but he died long ago, and I know he would not mind. I had this great patient, Eddie, and Eddie came to see me, started seeing me, I think in his late 70s. He died in his early 80s. And this guy loved trucks. In fact, he loved trucks so much, he started selling them. He bought and sold them. He had this little store literally right on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois. And as he got more and more sick and his business got worse and worse and worse, he kept going to work. He would sit in his chair, his assistant would bring him things, and he would buy and sell and trade used trucks. I changed my practice, actually, to the point where I'd go see people in their homes. And I remember driving up to the border and there he'd be literally close to dying on hospice and still doing what he loved doing. This guy loved these huge trucks. He'd buy him and sell them used. And it was one of his greatest joys. And he died that way.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

So that's a positive. Yeah, yeah.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

He. He died working and that he wouldn't have had it any other way.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

But just generally, do you think that, I mean, if you're working because the marketing department needs you versus this idea of any type of purpose, I think you're doing it wrong.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah. I mean, we tend to remember, especially on our deathbeds, when we talk about the things that excited us and the things we regret, the biggest question tends to be, was I a good version of myself? Which means, did I connect with those people? Who are important in my life? Did I do those things that were deeply important to me? Was I that kind of person I wanted to be? And the truth of the matter is usually that doesn't hinge on how many hours I showed up to work or whether I worked nights and weekends. It's much more about what was important to my sense of identity and purpose and did I have the courage to pursue it.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

There are those of us who are so selfless, and we just like to be needed. That. That gives us joy. I mean, that's why I'm here.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

And, Doug, your gifts to the podcast world are just. Just so. You know.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

I know, right?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

So great.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

But it strikes me og going, I can't stop thinking about Jordan, the story that you told about the guy selling trucks. And it strikes me og that your grandfather had lived for a long, long time. And I think he worked late into his life as well and loved every minute of it, didn't he? Yeah.

[OG]

I mean, Grandpa worked. He owned a printing business, and he had a big sign on the door that's the chairman of the board. You know, don't know that there are many other board members. Maybe grandma was on the board, too, but I remember him working a lot. But I have a lot of memories of going to the shop and walking behind the cubicle where Grandpa's office was. And a lot of times he would just be there sleeping, you know, like, with his feet up, like, taking a nap, or you have a magazine of printing equipment or something like that, you know. But it was a thing that he did. And I know he worked until his early 90s. I mean, he wasn't working 100 hours a week, but he wasn't working two, either. And most of the stuff that he was doing at the time, I can only imagine I wasn't involved in the business. Had very little to do with the actual operation of printing. It was the customer relations stuff. It was the selling. It was the general positioning of the firm in the marketplace because he was pretty well known in the community. So I think it was a lot less to do with the actual work and a lot more to do with legacy, maybe even at that point, to.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Some degree, marketing and relationships, too, keeping those relationships.

[OG]

He wasn't too concerned with the legacy aspect of it, at least to my knowledge. But. But more around, just people would come in and they want to talk to Augie. They didn't care. Like, yeah, yeah, I know you guys are doing the work, but where's. Where's the boss? Let's talk to him.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah. Let's say hi, right?

[OG]

Let's say hi.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You know, oh, gee, sticking with you for a second, people that are fire advocates, not this idea of reverse fire, often say, you know, the part concerned about is the FI and the re we're not worried about. I think that in this case, it almost has to be the same. If your goal is to work forever, you still need to figure out the FI before 87 or 90 or whatever.

[OG]

The contingency plan, right.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

140.

[OG]

Somebody may not want you to be reverse firing. Somebody may want to have you fire, you know, at 65, like you're supposed to, because there's other mouths to feed and so on and so forth. I think the biggest downside of all of this thinking about extending it forever is the opportunity that you have to be lazy about saving and investing. And that's what I said before about my 140 year time horizon. You go, well, hell, I got 90 years to get there. I could save a dollar a month and still be fine. But that kind of sends the wrong message too, right? It's a little bit too much like, I'll wait for tomorrow. You know, what was the, what was the hamburger thing from Popeye? Right. I'd gladly pay you for two cheeseburgers tomorrow, for one cheeseburger today. You know, it's like it rewards that behavior a little too much for my liking. And just like when you're about to go on vacation and you work really hard, right before you get out, go on vacation, you get all that work done, you have that big to do list, the big pile of stuff on your desk, and then you know that two weeks before vacation, you just like, slay everything. And you know, you're the most productive you are in your entire life. Those 10 days, it's incredible. Before you go on vacation, if you give yourself a tight time frame on financial goals, you're more likely to be aggressive with them. And even if you don't exactly hit it, you're going to still be in the ballpark of it. It's one thing to be on one side of the equation and say, hey, when you're 20 years old, if you just save $500 a month in a Roth, look, you're going to be totally fine for the rest of your life. You have millions of dollars, it'll be all tax free. Life is going to be fantastic. But if you're 40, I don't want you to. It's two sides of this. One side is saying like, oh my gosh, I'M behind. I need to, I'm never going to make it. Why try? That's the defeatist side. But the other side is going, hey, I really need to put some pressure on myself here. I need to get after it. I need to really pay attention to what I'm spending my money on so that I have extra. I need to ask my boss for a pay raise or additional responsibility or work really hard to get that bonus because I need to start saving some frigging money. I need to get this stuff to start compounding because I don't have the opportunity or I shouldn't be planning on working until I'm 90 because frankly, not all work is great. I think for a lot of people, work kind of sucks.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, and even if you try to find good work, like we talked about before the break, if you try to find work that you like and you can, you can't find it or it takes you five years or 10 years to figure it out, I don't want.

[OG]

You to use the I'm going to work until I'm 80 because I love what I do as an opportunity to be lazy with savings. I don't have to save. Yeah, do both of those things so that you could have such a big. It's like the 15 year mortgage or 30 year mortgage. People go back and forth on that when it was Covid and interest rates really low. They're like, oh, you should take the 30 year because it's 22% interest. It's like super low. And can borrow money forever. It's like, no, do the 15 year mortgage and the 2% rate so you get that fraking thing paid for as soon as humanly possible. And the bank gets almost nothing out of you. Like, I think our interest payment on our mortgage right now is like $200 or something. It's all principal. The bank doesn't get anything out of us. They send us stuff every week going, hey, you should refinance your mortgage. Look at all that equity you have. You probably want that to build a new barn or something, right? It's like, do both. Use the opportunity to be aggressive for savings and also work a little bit longer if you like what you're doing. And now you've really compounded your family's wealth and your family's ability to move things forward.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Paula, you know, OG's talking about this unintended consequence. You decide to live forever so then you don't save any money. And then surprise, surprise, any other unintended consequences of this reverse fire that you can think of.

[Paula Pant]

I. I think that what Og has described is probably the biggest concern. Inadequately saving because you assume you'll work forever. But I would say if a secondary level concern would be not adequately exploring interests, hobbies, passions, curiosities outside of whatever would conventionally be thought of as work.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, that's a great one.

[Paula Pant]

It might be that if your brain is just so attuned to being productive, you know, maybe it's not the same job that you do, but if your brain is attuned to sitting on committees and being in meetings and sending emails. Right. You might just find different ways of doing that for different organizations maybe, maybe even in different industries. But it's. You're still fundamentally on zoom and, you know, sitting on zoom meetings and sending emails.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

As opposed to painting or taking improv classes or learning how to rollerblade.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

No.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That is interesting because Jordan Og talked about it could be an excuse financially. Well, I don't feel like saving, but it could also be fear of the unknown. If I stop doing the. It isn't so much that I love this that I'm afraid of, what the hell would I replace it with? It's like stepping off into the abyss.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah. I mean, whenever we decide to do something different, we have to step into the unknown. And so it's always easy to keep doing what you're doing. It's always going to be easier, at least emotionally then to shake it up, do something different and then get a different outcome. I think we have to be very careful because one of the things that I think people really miss is they're like, well, I kind of like my job and I don't want to rush it. And maybe it is an excuse not to save as much. But five years down the road, like, all your friends have retired, they're all going out to eat every day and then they're going to play golf. And you're stuck still going to the 9 to 5 because you thought you liked it so you were going to extend it. And so I guess that's the biggest issue is you just don't have as much flexibility. Right. If you really become very dependent on your finances, on continuing that job, even if you think, boy, I'm going to love that job. Things change in five years and you might be a very different person and you might have very different interests.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, yeah. Boss changes, business gets sold, whatever it might be.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Shane says, the devil you know. Chris says, I'll lose my identity if I change. Masley brings up something really, really neat. Doc. Not neat. But I guess another point of this, which is, I don't know if guilt is the right word, but if I'm sitting here filling a desk in my 80s and I enjoy what I do, but I know I'm not as productive as I used to be, how much should I be worried about the fact that maybe I'm not as productive for my employer as everybody else is around me, even if they're letting me stay there? Is there a philosophical issue there?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah. I mean, that's a really hard one to figure out. Right. Because there's so many. So many different details. Are you taking up the space someone else could be growing and learning in, someone who's maybe more appropriate or who has more of a career path or trajectory than you.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That was specifically what Masley said was perhaps not giving a new employee a chance.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

And it's so hard to know that because it's so dependent. But I would guess a lot of these people we're talking about, like the psychiatrist who maybe will go back and do a few years more of seeing patients, I would guess that in most situations, that's not the case. Right. In most situations, the employer will tell you, look, it's not working here anymore, et cetera. In most of the situations, if there's a young buck who should be moving into your place, most workplaces will eventually start their transition. But, yes, I mean, all of that's possible. And I think that's some of that nuance and all the good reason, again, to get back to let's have our finances in order so that we can actually look at that nuance and make decisions.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I don't know, Paul, how interested are you in this idea of career forever?

[Paula Pant]

I love it. I honestly really love it. It appeals to me because, you know, we joked earlier about nobody's on their deathbed regretting that they didn't hit certain KPIs. I'm kidding.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

KPIs.

[Paula Pant]

But I do think I'll speak for myself. I have a deep curiosity about how big I can grow something into, you know? And so when I think about what I'm doing now, what I find highly motivating is seeing how many people I can reach. It's two. Two levels. How many people can I reach and how big of an impact can I make in their life? And over the span of 20 years or 30 years or 40 years, that can kind of grow into a relatively small number or a very, very big number. And I think if it doesn't grow into a very, very Big number with a big impact. There can be that sense of regret, like if I feel like I didn't really try, you know, if I feel like it was lack of effort on my part. And so anyway, where all of this is going is what I like about the working forever or for as long as it holds your interest is that you still have a goal that you are trying to attain and there can be a lot of joy and a lot of purpose in reaching for that goal.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I hear everything you're saying and I wonder if though still being a well rounded person with other things outside of that pursuit is still important.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. I think that's why scaling from 40 hours down to 20, you know, at a certain point in your life. Yeah. I don't know what you can really get done in two hours a week, but you know, I can, I could certainly see a time where you scale to 20 hours a week because that feels very well balanced. You could work 20 hours a week and have a very balanced life outside of that.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I know. Speaking with Clark Howard about this, our mutual friend Clark was talking about how just the older he gets, the more he likes. He wants to do the things that he loves, but he doesn't want to do the things he doesn't love anymore. He just likes giving that away and giving that to somebody who might be able to do it better. But that, that core thing being on the microphone, Clark Howard being Clark Howard, there's probably nobody in his organization who could, who can beat him at. Beat him. That.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, gee. What's interesting is as I'm listening to Paula being friends with you, that's not your path. What are you looking at as you go forward and think about retirement or non retirement.

[OG]

God, like putting me on blast right now. It's like, like I just. When are you going to be done? Yes.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Is this coming soon?

[OG]

Yeah. I mean I, I'm one Powerball winning away from, from changing my phone number. Like do, do, do. We're sorry, the number you've called is no longer in service.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I'm much less worried about you and financial independence. I'm much more worried about you and the, you know, remaining active, remaining doing your thing.

[OG]

Right. I think like Paula was saying, it's more about like eliminating the things that you don't find fascinating and motivating. And really that's the big challenge, I think for a lot of entrepreneurs is to continue to find things that are exciting to do because you know, when you've done something for a long time, we've done the podcast for 15 or 16 years. We have to keep on, like, finding energy to do it. Right. It's not as it's. It's still exciting, but it's not like new exciting. Right. We have to find new things to find us excited to talk about because we've talked about Roth conversions 700 years.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I don't know, though, man. Sometimes the old stuff, by the response we got recently about your reaction to the gold discussion, sometimes the old stuff still slaps.

[OG]

Because gold is stupid. So that's pretty easy to talk about.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Take that, Frank.

[OG]

Yeah, so I think that for me, personally, what the challenge is going to be is to continue to find the things that are fascinating, motivating to do and continue to find other people to support me doing that. And the things that I don't find exciting anymore, finding people that can support still doing that. And that's really the. That's really the biggest thing. What I do say to people who, because, you know, people ask this question, honestly, especially, you know, our clients, they'll say, hey, you know, if you've been drinking your own Kool Aid for a little while, maybe you've got a few bucks saved. So what are you thinking? And the thing that I tell everybody is, well, I have a fourth grader, so it's not like I'm jetting off to Paris, like, hey, discounted tickets to, you know, to the UK right now. It's like I have a fourth grader. So like, we're still doing that for the foreseeable future, but that doesn't mean.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You have to keep doing what you're doing. You could still do. You could do something else.

[OG]

Well, 100%. What does the next 10 years look like? I can't do a good job of pinning it down, but I can tell you what the next 10 years doesn't look like. And I think that's the better way of looking at it. It's like I'm still not doing the dishes or rinsing out my bowl, despite my wife's incessant pleas.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I think this is interesting and I want to head something off at the past. Sun Tzu, the Art of War, the best battles, the one that's never fought. Both you said, as an entrepreneur, Paula, you talked about something is very entrepreneurial. I don't think anything either one of you said is specifically about entrepreneurs.

[OG]

Oh, true.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

So for people going, oh, those don't. Those don't apply to me. Sure they do. Paula's on this infinite game of. In this infinite game, it's how Fast can I run? How far can I get? What can I. Well, how fast can I follow. Sorry, Paula, in a running analogy, that was bad.

[OG]

Not very fast.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yes. How far can I walk? What can I do? But how far can I chase this thing? And you're passionate enough about it, and you could do that if you work for somebody else, if you work for yourself. And finding that thing, I think is fantastic, where you show up every day and you're engaged and, oh, gee, same thing, like eliminating the stuff that you don't like from your life and deciding what it is. If you can work with your boss on that and moving into different roles, you know, so that that suit you and. And where you can really help the.

[OG]

Company, the reality is, is you don't get what you don't ask for. And when you can clearly identify or articulate exactly what it is that you want or don't want to do, especially if you're looking at, like, you know, I'll take it away from the entrepreneur side and looking at it as, let's say, a manager and a new employee, it's like, here's what I like doing. I like training new employees. I will dedicate all my time to training new employees, all 20 hours a week of doing that. So can you create a job both hours a week? Yeah, both hours. Like, I don't want to do these. I don't want to be the worker bee anymore. Like, I've maxed out in my interest level of doing that, but I find a lot of passion in doing this, and I will spend all the time and energy necessary to make sure that these young people that we're recruiting can drink the culture, get really smart, transfer all this knowledge, and I can do that in 20 hours a week. Can you create this role for me? Because I really want to keep doing this. And you'll be surprised. I mean, there's going to be times where they say, no, that just isn't a thing that we have. But if you're a valuable employee, there's plenty of opportunity to do that. And there's so many stories. We all know anecdotally, the stories of people who, like, leave their job and then come back as a consultant because they're like, actually, we screwed up by letting you retire, so can you come back? And then you're like, yeah, but at 20,000amonth for 20 hours a week, sure.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. I'm not doing that.

[OG]

Yeah, I'm going to come in and we're talking about these two projects Monday from 10:00am till 2:00pm and yeah, I don't do 8:00 clock meetings and I don't stay to the past martini hour.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Jordan, you've already started to make this transition.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah, I mean, I pretty much have. You know, the wonderful thing about financial independence, the best argument you can make for not doing Reverse Fire and just doing it right away is I pretty much do what I want every day, all day. My life is full of pursuing things I really, really enjoy and I do very few things I don't want to do. And I hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll have, you know, 30 more years of doing that.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

But, and again, this isn't being an entrepreneur. I mean, you were a physician with a patient load and had to decide to make the change.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Yeah, I mean, I think financial independence levels the board. You could be an entrepreneur, you can be an employee, you can be this, you could be that, you could be a side hustler. It doesn't matter. Financial independence levels the playing field. The difference is this. I probably waited till I was, you know, 45, 50 and worked really, really, really hard doing things I didn't like to do for a long time to get there so that I could be here now. Now, if you're more interested in something like Reverse Fire, you're going to start doing more of what you want now and sacrificing a little bit of the economic headwinds. Yeah, but both of them are fine. You just have to decide what fits you.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I love this idea. As more people work longer, still designing it, staying on top of it, not using it, is an excuse to live less, potentially live more. I think that's a great place to leave it. Everybody, a link to this piece. Again, Ann Tergeson and Veronica Dagger, two people whose work we've appreciated for so long. And again, another stellar piece out of the Wall Street Journal. Let's talk about what's going on where you are. We'll start with you, Doc, just back from Bali. What's going on at Earn and Invest?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

We are talking to Sean Mulaney this week about his book and we're talking about taxes. He wrote a fantastic book. And it takes our tax code, takes everything that's happened over the last bunch of years with legislation and just makes it more clear. So it's a wonderful book. It's a great conversation.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

He's a fun guy to talk to and he was on a roundtable a couple weeks ago. Sean and Cody, by the way. I just saw, just as we Record this. This morning on LinkedIn, Cody reported. This is what's going on in the age of AI. There are now four books that have the same title and are called a workbook. Two. And just all AI written.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

That's been going on for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Back in 22 when my book came out, when a bunch of people skip. It's same thing. It just. It's a pain.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Maybe that's a testament to my work that that didn't happen with.

[Paula Pant]

I don't know.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I can't copy this. There's too, way too much going on.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

It was too original. It was too original.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Too, way too original.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Cute drawings.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

OG what's going on with you this fine October weekend?

[OG]

Oh, great weekend. Mom's in town. Got a little high school football tonight. The penultimate regular season game that we're headed down to Waco for. It's gonna be a tough matchup. And then the wife and I start a little bit of a trip starting tomorrow. Go to Arkansas. We got a little, little after school activity in Arkansas tomorrow and then on to the House of Mouse. So if any of you caught my. Was it viral? Can I say viral?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

188,000 people have watched it.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Viral.

[OG]

Toktik about Disney. I am gonna go to blow a bunch of money at Disney with our, with our team on our annual team retreat street. So we picked Disney. This year we're gonna have some fun. Going to the Mickey's not so Scary Halloween party.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, that's gonna be great. That will be fantastic. I will be. As people hear this, I'm at a theme park myself. We're going to Dollywood and then to West Virginia to get another park. New River Gorge. Nice national park we're gonna be at.

[OG]

Perfect.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Which is all a lead in for what's going on at Afford Anything.

[Paula Pant]

So on the Afford Anything podcast, Doug and Heather Bonaparte. So Doug is hilarious. He works in the financial space in New York, but he's really known for all the jokes he cracks on Twitter. Probably one of the best financial comedians in the written form that I have right here.

[OG]

Other.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Other financial comedians out there.

[Paula Pant]

So he and his wife joined me to talk about money for couples and how they manage money as a family.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That's fantastic. Doug and Heather Bonaparte, great people.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

On the Afford Anything show. We'll have them, by the way, as part of our Halloween week here too. And pull, like everything. You're taking the positive, we'll take the negative. So we're a good one, two punch. We're talking about couple communication Horror stories.

[OG]

Oh, gonna be.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Gonna be good. But that's it. The Afford Anything podcast, where finer podcasts are found and trivia winning podcast.

[Paula Pant]

Right, exactly, exactly. The trivia winning trivia winner hosted.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You should put that at the top of your graphic. I won Stacking Benjamin's trivia once.

[Paula Pant]

That'll be my new Twitter bio. Trivia winner.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right, that's going to do it for today. Big thanks to everybody for hanging out and giving us the gift of your ears. Thanks to everybody who hung out with us and was a part of this podcast on YouTube. You guys were fantastic and we were able to include quite a few of you in the show. So thanks for being a part of the show, making this really fun again. We're here Monday afternoons and if you get our newsletter, the201stacking benjamin.com 201, you'll get a note that says, hey, here's the time we're going live and come join us and hope you can hang out with us on YouTube. All right, at this point of the show, though, we turn it over to Doug and ask him, Doug, what are our three big to do's today?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Well, Joe, first, and this might be the first time I've ever said this in 16 years, take some advice from Joe. You've got all these things, all these things you want to do with your life, you should do do.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumitz)]

Just don't do it on a scissors.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

Or said definitely by Doc G. We seem to want to make rules for how other people should live their lives, but if you're watching one of those people who likes working, then do that. Second, don't forget about what OG Said. If you give yourself a tight time frame on financial goals, you're more likely to hit them. And if you don't, you'll probably come closer than if you cut yourself too much slack. But the big lesson, don't give Joe's mom any ideas about buying T shirts. Listen to this. She just bought a shirt that said I'm with stupid and there's a finger on it that points mistakenly right at me. Huge mistake, Ma. You should have bought the one that pointed at Joe. Thanks to the incredible Paula Pant for joining us.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Today.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor Doug)]

We're getting T shirts that say I'm with Paula, except, you know, about pop culture. We'll also include links to her afford anything podcast in our show [e-mail] thanks to DOC G for hanging out with us today. We're gonna print up some purpose is for everyone shirts that I think you're going to love. You'll find his fabulous podcast Earn and Invest wherever you listen to Finer Podcasts. And finally, thanks to OG for joining us today. Doug checks notes. Looks like we're not printing up any T shirts for OG okay, but if you're looking for good financial planning help, head to stackingbenjamins.com OG for his calendar. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.