Bonus Episode: Toni Morrison, Goodness, and What Comes Next with Saeed Jones

Summary

The Stacks Podcast: Bonus Episode Summary
Episode: "Bonus Episode: Toni Morrison, Goodness, and What Comes Next with Saeed Jones"
Release Date: January 20, 2025
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Saeed Jones

---

Introduction: Addressing Tragedy and Setting the Stage

[00:00] Tracy Thomas:
Traci Thomas opens the episode with a heartfelt acknowledgment of the devastating wildfires affecting Los Angeles. She reassures listeners of her and her family's safety while expressing deep sorrow for those who have lost their homes. Tracy emphasizes gratitude for the firefighters' heroic efforts and highlights the need for financial support through organizations like Inclusive Action, which is aiding outdoor workers impacted by the fires. She directs listeners to her newsletter for additional resources, setting a compassionate and community-focused tone for the episode.

The Genesis of the Conversation: A Collaboration Born from Frustration

[03:02] Tracy Thomas:
Traci recounts the origins of the episode, describing how conversations with Saeed Jones about personal grievances led to the idea of discussing Toni Morrison's lecture on goodness and the literary imagination as a form of counter-programming against the political climate surrounding inauguration day. This backstory underscores the organic and genuine nature of their discussion.

[05:09] Saeed Jones:
Saeed affirms the intent to "talk ourselves through it," highlighting the collaborative and introspective approach they intend to take in exploring the themes of goodness and evil.

Exploring Toni Morrison's "Goodness and the Literary Imagination"

[06:34] Tracy Thomas:
Traci introduces the primary focus of the episode: Toni Morrison's essay and the book titled Toni Morrison, Goodness and the Literary Imagination, edited by Daveed Carrasco, Stephanie Paul Sell, and Mara Willard. She outlines the book's structure, including essays from various academics and an interview between Carrasco and Morrison, setting the foundation for their in-depth discussion.

[07:44] Saeed Jones:
Saeed shares his deep personal connection to Toni Morrison, referring to her as the "well" he turns to when his "soul is dehydrated" (01:15). He emphasizes the importance of Morrison's work in navigating contemporary issues like climate catastrophe and political upheaval.

Goodness and Evil in Literature: A Historical Perspective

[07:44 - 14:48] Saeed Jones & Tracy Thomas:
The conversation delves into Morrison's analysis of how literature has historically treated goodness and evil. Saeed recalls Morrison's observation that before World War I, literature often focused on goodness prevailing, whereas post-war literature shifted to a more complex portrayal of good and evil. This shift mirrored the global disillusionment brought about by the wars, leading to a literary landscape where "everyone's a bad guy" (19:18).

Traci connects this historical shift to the current sociopolitical climate, questioning whether contemporary literature will return to a focus on goodness or continue to explore the pervasive nature of evil amidst events like the 2016 election and ongoing global crises.

The Quiet Nature of Goodness vs. the Pervasiveness of Evil

[07:44] Saeed Jones:
Saeed elaborates on the idea that goodness is often "quiet" and "intimate," acting within small circles without seeking publicity. In contrast, evil is described as "everywhere," adept at cloaking itself in language that can seduce even the most discerning individuals.

[10:05] Tracy Thomas:
Traci resonates with Saeed's observation, sharing her fascination with how literature post-World War I shifted from clear-cut good vs. evil narratives to more nuanced explorations of evil, often embodied in characters who are morally ambiguous or outright antagonistic.

The Complexity of Altruism and Its Role in Goodness

[32:46] Saeed Jones:
Saeed discusses Morrison's three pillars of goodness, starting with altruism. He challenges the notion of altruism as a purely selfless act, suggesting it can sometimes stem from narcissism or ego enhancement. He references Morrison's idea that if goodness were defined solely as altruism, it might not be sustainable, as people could become disillusioned or self-serving.

[35:57] Saeed Jones:
Continuing on altruism, Saeed touches on the debate around whether altruistic behavior is genetically embedded, akin to Darwin's "survival of the fittest." This discussion highlights the complexity of defining and understanding the roots of goodness in human behavior.

Goodness in Response to Tragedy: The Amish Community Example

[32:29] Tracy Thomas:
Traci presents Morrison's example of the Amish community's response to a tragic school shooting. Instead of condemning the shooter, the community embraces his widow and focuses on healing collectively. This act of forgiveness sparks Morrison's exploration of goodness in the face of evil.

[34:24] Saeed Jones:
Saeed reflects on the moral dilemma presented by the Amish response, acknowledging the difficulty in interpreting such actions. He emphasizes Morrison's concept of the "shock of forgiveness," where unexpected acts of goodness challenge our understanding of deservingness and moral behavior.

Literary Representation of Good and Evil: Simplification vs. Realism

[14:48] Tracy Thomas:
Traci contrasts literary portrayals of good and evil with real-life complexities. She observes that literature often simplifies moral distinctions for clarity, whereas in reality, individuals can embody both good and evil traits simultaneously. This simplification can lead to binary portrayals that don't accurately reflect the nuanced nature of human morality.

[18:38] Saeed Jones:
Saeed agrees, noting that contemporary literature and media tend to present a paradox where "everyone's a little bit evil," which complicates efforts to identify and sustain goodness in society. He cites examples like Alice Munro's focus on themes of regret and loss over outright goodness, reinforcing Morrison's observations.

The Generative Nature of Goodness and Its Sustenance

[25:43] Tracy Thomas:
Traci discusses Morrison's view that goodness is "generative," meaning it creates newness and progress, unlike evil, which is reactive and destructive. She connects this to community efforts in rebuilding and inspiring resilience amidst the wildfires in LA, illustrating how collective goodness fosters positive change.

[22:35] Saeed Jones:
Saeed elaborates on Morrison's assertion that society sustains goodness by "talking about it, depicting it, and communicating it." He underscores the importance of portraying goodness in art and literature to empower self-knowledge and moral growth, rather than allowing evil to dominate narratives.

Aesthetic Representation of Goodness and Evil: Lessons from the Past and Present

[47:45] Tracy Thomas & Saeed Jones:
Traci and Saeed explore Morrison's analysis of how aesthetic choices, such as uniforms, have historically symbolized evil, referencing the Nazis' impactful attire. They draw parallels to contemporary political aesthetics, discussing how appearance and presentation play roles in the perception and perpetuation of good and evil in society.

Saeed reflects on current political figures and movements, noting how sartorial choices are leveraged for image and influence, much like historical symbols of evil. This discussion highlights the enduring power of visual representation in shaping moral narratives.

Community and the Collective Effort of Goodness

[66:04] Tracy Thomas:
Traci emphasizes that goodness thrives within communities. She shares her efforts both publicly and privately to support those affected by the wildfires, balancing visibility with the need for private, community-based support. Tracy advocates for collective action, noting that "goodness relies on community," which fosters hope and healing.

[66:02] Saeed Jones:
Saeed concurs, illustrating that individual acts of goodness are insufficient without community support. He advocates for "quiet, secret underground networks" that operate away from public scrutiny to protect and sustain communal goodness, especially against powerful adversaries.

Goodness as an Ongoing, Generative Process

[64:24] Saeed Jones:
Saeed compares the unpredictable nature of wildfires to the struggle between good and evil, emphasizing that goodness isn't a destination but an ongoing process. He describes goodness as "humble, joyful inadequacy," suggesting that its generative quality lies in its continuous, collective effort rather than any final fulfillment.

[66:59] Tracy Thomas:
Traci reinforces this by discussing how goodness often feels inadequate, driving individuals to continue striving without seeking external validation. She highlights the importance of community support, stating, "You cannot do it alone. You can only do be good in community," embodying the essence of generative goodness.

Conclusion: Embracing Generative Goodness in Community

[68:01] Saeed Jones & Traci Thomas:
In their closing remarks, Saeed and Traci reaffirm the importance of ongoing, community-based efforts to sustain goodness. Saeed encapsulates Morrison's philosophy by stating, "out of the good comes the good," emphasizing that each act of goodness fosters further positive actions. Traci echoes this sentiment, encouraging listeners to balance public and private acts of goodness to support and uplift their communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Traci Thomas [01:15]:
  "She's become the well that I go to when my soul is dehydrated."

• Saeed Jones [19:18]:
  "Everyone's a little bit evil."

• Traci Thomas [25:43]:
  "Goodness is generative... it creates newness and progress."

• Saeed Jones [66:45]:
  "Humble, joyful inadequacy. That is, to me, perhaps why goodness is generative."

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Goodness in Literature vs. Real Life:
   Toni Morrison's exploration highlights the shift in literature from clear-cut depictions of goodness triumphing to more nuanced portrayals of morality, reflecting societal disillusionment post-conflict periods.

2. Quiet Nature of Goodness:
   Goodness often operates silently within communities, contrasting with the pervasive and seductive nature of evil.

3. Complexity of Altruism:
   Altruism may stem from self-serving motives, challenging the notion of pure selflessness and complicating the understanding of goodness.

4. Aesthetic Symbolism:
   Visual representations, such as uniforms, play a significant role in symbolizing and perpetuating perceptions of good and evil.

5. Community as the Foundation of Goodness:
   Sustaining goodness requires collective effort and community support, emphasizing that individual acts, while important, are more effective when embedded within a communal framework.

6. Generative Process of Goodness:
   Goodness continuously fosters new positive actions, driven by a shared commitment to community and mutual support.

7. Balancing Public and Private Goodness:
   Successfully contributing to goodness involves both visible acts that inspire others and private efforts that protect and support community members effectively.

---

This episode of The Stacks offers a profound exploration of goodness and evil through the lens of Toni Morrison's work, enriched by the insightful dialogue between Traci Thomas and Saeed Jones. Their discussion not only delves into literary analysis but also connects these themes to pressing real-world issues, encouraging listeners to reflect on and engage with goodness in their own lives and communities.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hi, everyone. I just wanted to pop on and say hello and touch base. I did not feel comfortable dropping a new episode of the Stacks this week without acknowledging the terrible wildfires that are taking place in Los Angeles right now. The city in which I live, my family and I, we are okay. Thank you so much for reaching out to us. Unfortunately, so many people that I know and love lost their homes, including a few people who work here with me at the Stacks. I have to say, of course, I'm beyond grateful to the amazing work of the firefighters and first responders, and I hope that they can continue to protect the citizens of Los Angeles. I wanted to quickly highlight an organization that is in need of your financial contributions. I know there are so many places you could donate your money. And I wanted to highlight Inclusive Action for the city. They have a fund going on right now for outdoor workers that have been impacted by the fires. Many gardeners, street vendors, recyclers, and other outdoor workers who are an integral part of the LA communities touched by the fire have lost their livelihoods. Inclusive Action is giving out $500 grants directly to these workers. Also this week in my newsletter, I shared a list of places and people in need of your support. And I have included links to both Inclusive Action and my newsletter in the show notes. So please check those things out and thank you so much for helping us rebuild Los Angeles.

[Saeed Jones]

She's become the well that I go to when. When my soul is dehydrated, I guess. And, you know, certainly whether we're thinking of climate catastrophe and of course, this. This inauguration and all that it augurs. Yeah, you have to go back to the well.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks podcast about books and the people who read them. Today we're doing something a little different. On an extra special bonus episode of the Stacks. I'm joined by poet and author Saeed Jones, who's been a guest on the show before. And he's back today to talk to me about a lecture given by Toni Morrison in 2012 about goodness and the literary imagination. Today we talk about goodness, evil, and what we hope to do and be in the face of so much devastation that is going on in California, the United States, and around the world. We're calling this episode a little bit of counter programming to put up against the inauguration. So wherever you are, wherever you're listening to this, thank you for tuning in, and I hope that you have a great rest of your day. All right, it's time for my conversation with Saeed Jones. All right, everybody, welcome to the Stacks. It's Monday. It's a bonus episode that I am so excited to bring to you. I'm joined today by my friend, friend of the podcast, Poet authority all around. Just like outstanding human, Saeed Jones. Saeed, welcome back to the stacks.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, my love, it's so good to be back. Hi.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm so happy to see you. Okay, so let me tell folks what we're doing today. A few months, maybe like in December, Saeed text me bitching about some person who has done something because we do that and say it was mad about some person. And we started texting back and forth, like, off of this original wrongdoing. And we sort of, like, we're just talking. And I was saying this and he was saying that, and then I was like, you know, you should do this for me. And he's like, you don't ask me to do stuff enough for you. And I was like, what should I be asking for? And we go on and on, and eventually Saeed's like, you know, we should have a conversation on inauguration day as a form of counter programming. And I was like, this is a great idea. Why didn't I think of this? Are we in a fight? Because I'm not as smart as you. And Saeed was like, there's this great essay that Toni Morrison, it was a. It was a lecture that she gave that's now an essay and a book about goodness and the literary imagination. And we should talk about that because that would be great counter programming. And I said, this is a brilliant idea. And then I said, see, shit talking actually is generative for people like us. So I want all of you to know that the shit talking and the hating, it can lead to really good ideas. And we're here today to talk about goodness in the literary. In the literary landscape, but also in the world. We're recording this on January 14th, I am in LA. As many of you know, it is days after the start of both the Palisades and Eaton fires. Here I am living in a world that feels both terrible and also somewhat good, based on what I've seen. And so I think we're going to talk about all of these things and provide a space for all of us to think about goodness in the face of whatever is happening in Washington, D.C. today at the inauguration. So that is sort of our plan. We're staying loose. You know, we've got notes, but we also just sort of want to talk and gab as friends about all of these things.

[Saeed Jones]

Absolutely. Dare I say, talk ourselves through it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because, yes, that's right.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. I mean, this is, you know, one. I'm here in Bennington, Vermont, teaching creative writing at the Bennington Writing Seminars. And I brought several books up here with me, one of which is, you know, this collection of essays and the lecture around Morrison and Goodness in the Literary Imagination. And I just. I said to my friend Eula Bibbs this morning, I was like, you know, I think Morrison is my pastor at this point. I. I collect all of her books, all the books she edited. You know, now I'm into, like, collecting, you know, essays, anthologies, letters. I'm collecting books by people who were friends with her because she's just become. And I have many of these, but she's become the well that I go to when my soul is dehydrated, I guess. And, you know, certainly whether we're thinking of climate catastrophe and, of course, this. This inauguration and all that. It augurs. Yeah, you have to go back to the well. And. Yeah, so you're right. I would be. I frankly would be reading this book today anyway. But of course, I'm glad to talk about it with you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So for folks who are at home and like, well, I want to read this book. I just want to tell you what the book we're referring to is. And there is a online, I think the New York Times published the actual essay of Goodness and the Literary Imagination, which I will link to in the show Notes. But the book is called Toni Morrison, Goodness and the Literary Imagination, with Essays on Morrison's Moral and Religious Vision. And it's edited by Daveed Carrasco, Stephanie Paul Sell and Mara Willard. And it's from Virginia University Press. So for folks who are looking to read the full book, it starts with an introduction. It has this essay that we're going to discuss, and then it has multiple essays from different academics about goodness and Toni Morrison's work. And then it ends with an interview between David Carrasco and Toni Morrison about goodness. So that's sort of a rundown of the book. We're not doing the whole book. We're just kind of talking. Yeah, we're not. We're not doing the whole book, people. But if you want to do the whole book, it is available for you to do. Okay. I just want to start in, like, the most basic place. What is your relationship currently to good and evil?

[Saeed Jones]

My relationship to. I'll say my relationship to good is something that I've really been trying to deepen. I think good, as I'm really trying to tap into it, is often quiet. That's Something that she kind of acknowledges. Like, does good brag about itself? Does it announce itself? I think it is quiet, often intimate. It's either a private decision or like a small circle. You know, it's an act from person to person that. That may not be communicated between those two people. Right. Or. Or like a small group of people taking care of each other. I am increasingly interested in the good that is known, that has an integrity. It's not vague, but it's not broadcast. And because I think social media and technology have really kind of hijacked a lot of our values. But. And I guess the other thing I would just say is in the last few years in particular, and just reaching this point in my life, I'm 39 now. A lot of terms that I used to find sheep or saccharine. I'm really reestablishing an appreciation for, like, good, like hope, like love. You know, I think I kind of used to roll my eyes and now I'm. I'm one interrogating why I felt that way, what happened. And faith, you know, that's another word. Devotion. Why did I have such a response? And then now I'm trying to establish a relationship and then evil is. I just. I just think it is far more common. I think it's just everywhere. It's just evil is everywhere. It wears many faces, and it is quite adept, ironically, in wrapping itself in language that I think many of us, especially those of us who think of ourselves as smart people, are easily seduced by.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, for me, I think what's. I think like saying seduced by. So, right, Because I. I love a performance, I love a show. And I think that evil, to your point, is. Is that, like, I love reading books about bad people, people who do horrible things. Like, to me, that is my bread and butter as far as, like, my literary imagination. Right. And I too, roll my eyes. The word. The word that really just makes me want to like, crawl under something is nice. Nice is the one I can get down with. Good. I love hope. I am at sometimes an optimist, though I am extremely pessimistic as well. But nice is the one that I. It's going to take a lot of therapy to get to a place where I feel good about the word nice. But I think that's also because there's so many connotations of nice that really are like, nice, nasty. And that whole performance.

[Saeed Jones]

Nice actually isn't good or polite actually isn't good when you get down.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's right.

[Saeed Jones]

So I think that's right.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I mean, in this essay, Toni Morrison talks about how goodness is treated in literature and, and how it's changed over time and how before, before World War I, a lot of books were concerned with this, not necessarily a happy ending, but like a good ending where goodness prevails.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that after World War I, when there was sort of a collective realization that good, even if quote, unquote, good wins. Right. The Allies win. So much evil was done on all sides that that became the thing that was interesting to unpack. And I found that really fascinating for two reasons. One, because I really don't like a lot of books that are pre, Pre World War I. I realized, like, that's just not stuff that I like to read. But two, because it made me think about this moment in our current society and I'm just like wondering if we will have events that will shift us back to an interest in goodness and away from evil. Like, or, or do these literary trends change? And I don't, I mean, I don't know.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah, I think I remember as a student of literature even in high school, but certainly in college when you start doing the survey courses where you're really beginning to get a sense of trends and artistic movements. Modern literature, which begins with World War I, I mean, because it just. The word that I always think of is shadow. I mean, it absolutely shattered people's worldview and there really was no going back from that. And then it's really striking because of course you have artists who were coming into their artistic practice, World War I happens, and then they were only, like, many of them were only middle aged when World War II comes along. So. Yeah, so to me it's, it's both this sense of what does a hero even look like in this new shattered, not even landscape, but world. And I think that's a huge part of it. It was like the whole world, you know, this, this now that we're talking about, like, you know, climate catastrophe is a global sense. It's not about a country or a community that feels significant, the scale. And then that it happens again with World War II. And yeah, I, as I was thinking about that, I was like, oh, yeah, those were the books. I remember my posture as a student changed because it felt. And you know, 911 happened when I was a sophomore in high school, so that felt analogous. Now though, I'm like, what would. We can't pinpoint. And I actually think it would be really simplistic to say, oh, it's the 2016 election. I don't actually don't feel like the election was the turning point. I felt like it was act two of something. But I don't know where it is. Where it's. I don't know if it's 9 11. I don't know if it was the war on terror. I don't know if it was the war in Iraq. You know, it's instead, like, instead of this being able to point to this one event that changed everything, it's like an era of constant shatter. Like, instead of like the big glass panes, everything's like little bitty shards in comparison. And where does good live in that worldview, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. And I think, like, for us, 911 becomes this, like, huge global event because of the way that America looms in. In the world. Not necessarily because it was felt directly like World War I or World War II by so many places. It was more like in the shadow of America having this event. Everyone else must suffer and change because, like, we. We say so because this happened to us. And so you will all. If we are going to suffer, so are you. And I think that's really different than sort of how World War I and World War II were felt by so many people across the world, and also different than how global warming is felt across the world. Like that, like, we sort of inserted our pain onto others and said, like, well, if we're gonna have this, like, you're all gonna check the water at the airport.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. And maybe. Okay, this is actually helpful because, you know, I grew up in Texas, so, you know, George W. Bush was my governor before he was my president. Then he becomes president, and then 911 happens. And yeah, you're right, because the isolation and it's like, you know, American isolationism and also American exceptionalism have everything to do with this perception of good and the war and terror. So it's right. We. We've been attacked, but we are the good guys. Like, I do feel, you know, and this is a very millennial reading, I have to say. But. But it's true for both of us. Like, that was a cultural moment where it was like, we are the good guys. Which is why, you know, for example, the Dixie Chicks at the time, or the Chicks speaking out against the war on terror was like, violently pushed back on because it was like, how dare you? Because I think the response to 911 was, what is the image of good? It's like the TV show 24 where you have the guy torturing people. It is the cow. It's like the. The America Was like, we're going to be one big cowboy and we're going to shoot him up. You know, our backstory is 9, 11. This, this. We didn't ask for it. We didn't deserve it. That's the rhetoric. How dare you. And now you. You're right, you're all going to suffer. And that became the American conception of good for at least a decade. Just wreaking havoc. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And I think, like, what's interesting to me about this book is before when you suggested this, I sort of didn't realize that it was going to be about. Or this essay was going to be about goodness and the literary imagination. I thought it was going to be about goodness more broadly in the world. And I don't know if, for you, if you feel this way, but, like, I think of goodness and evil differently on the page versus I. Versus how I think about it in life. Like, I think about goodness and evil on the page as, like, representative of other things as well. Whereas in life, I think that I understand the complexities more of, like, you can be both good and evil. You can behave in both good and evil ways. And that someone who is good in one moment could be evil in another or could be seen as evil to some groups and not to others in a way that, like in a book, in a story, it's often simplified to make it more clear to the audience who is who and what is what. Like, I'm thinking about, like, you're saying 24. Like, this is the good guy, you know, quote unquote. And. And these other people are the bad people. These brown terrorists are the bad guys. And that to me feels like very literary in the sense of, like, this is. This is good versus evil. Whereas in real life, you know, we. I mean, some of us understand that, like, he's a bad guy too. That, like, everybody's a bad guy. And I don't know if you think about these things differently.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah, I mean, one, I have a line in the lecture that I want to point to that feels relevant. But one. The last thing you said is I do feel like A very post 9 11, really, up until just a few years ago, posture that I felt dominated contemporary literature and a lot of film and entertainment elsewhere was everybody's a bad guy. Like, that became that. That really. That became the. The, like a mature outlook on the world was. And it was like, weird that that was the. I was like, that's the conclusion. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

And like, that it's like, sort of defeatist, right? It's like well, no point in trying to be good because everybody's bad or like, there's no use in. In leaning into, like, wanting to be better because it's, It's. There's no point. Everyone makes me at the end.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah, it makes me think. And again, it's very, you know, very different tone, but it's very much a part of this, oh, dare I say it, Milieu. But Avenue Q, everybody's a little bit racist. Because the thing is, the posture from both of that everyone's a little bit racist or everyone fucks up. Well, everyone fucks up sometime or everyone's bad is not. And thus me. Thus we really have to work to reach for goodness that we really have to work to be anti racist. The posture was, well, everyone's kind of like this, so chill out, don't be so about it. But, but the other thing that I would say, a point that is very helpful to your distinction between how evil kind of manifests in our daily lives and then how it tends to show up in art is. This is from page 16. She says grief, melancholy, missed chances for personal happiness often seem to be contemporary literature's concept of evil. And that feels true to me. You know, we see. And I will say, quite frankly, let's take Alice Munro. She was evil, I feel, knowing what we know now, but also so much of her work. The themes, for example, were about these, like, like regret. You know, regret takes up much more intellectual, artistic, real estate in the conception of her canon than goodness, than satisfaction. And yeah, like. And then when I was like, oh, wow, yeah, that's true. You know, it's in everyday life, you know, we don't really, I mean, usually have villains in our personal life.

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe politically right, But I have some personal villains. Let me be honest. I don't want to be a liar. Okay, I might.

[Saeed Jones]

Us are not so lucky, you know, but like, but generally speaking, I was like, oh, that's really interesting. It's, you know, these themes, these, These dark feelings that. That tend to get more real estate and. And I will say to push back a little bit, you know, grief, melancholy, you know, and. And even with evil, you know, something else we see in a lot of films with all of these reboots is like, reconsideration of villains. I'm thinking of Wicked. I'm thinking of Cruella, you know, wasn't like there was a new Lion King joker or something. The Joker. I'm thinking the Lion King movie where, like, Scar is recentered. You know, I think the impulse has been, if we focus on evil and make evil the main character, Ursula. We can understand evil better and interrogated in ourselves. I think that's the logic, but I don't think that really pans out. I think we kind of end up with everyone's a little bit evil or we become evil eventually, which is kind of like the Batman thing. Like you're either live long enough and you become a villain anyway.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Well, what do you think sustains goodness in the face of the popularity of evil? Like, if everyone's a little bit bad and evil and like, we're all going to be bad guys one day, what. What is the. Not the point of goodness, but, like, how does goodness stay goodness? Like, goodness is still going toe to toe with evil every day. Like we're seeing it. How? Why, absolutely.

[Saeed Jones]

I mean, I'll go back to Morrison here. And this is at the conclusion, what society sustains goodness is us talking about it, us depicting it and, and communicating. And again, this is very. And part of this is like artistic because, you know, I think if you do a good deed, I'm not telling you to like, go brag to your neighbor about it. Go post, go, go post on social media that you donated to a. A wildfire relief fund. No, just. Just do it. Just do it and show other people the resources. You know what I mean? It's not about you, but in terms of. As artists. She talks about how she feels. It's really important. What did she say on page 18? I have become more and more invested in making sure acts of goodness, however casual or deliberate or misapplied. And then we can talk about the Amish community that she mentions. Blessed produce language. So she's like, when goodness happens in our art, she says, like, for novels, I want it to impact the plot so that it's not just like a one off, that we. That it's centered. And then later she says, allowing goodness its own speech, right? Like letting goodness talk in the way that we always let evil. Kind of old monologue. Allowing goodness its own speech does not annihilate evil, but it does allow me to signify my own understanding of goodness. The acquisition of self knowledge. Which in the end is, I think, where Morrison lands in terms of, like, what's the function of a novel within a system of power? This is what I, you know, I was just teaching a course this past semester on like, how the memoir functions within systems of power. I think for her, the function of the novel is to show how a character learned something that they did not understand at the beginning and that. That learning is a movement toward good, and it may not be a happy ending. She points to the Bluest Eye as an example. It's tragic for Piccolo, but Claudia, the book's narrator, learned something vital and that there's still value in that. So, yeah, I think it's. As an artist, as a teacher, it's writing about goodness, understanding that goodness is as interesting as grief or brutality, and then trying to find ways to describe or even bestow language upon those acts of goodness in the work so that the reader has something to take away.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And I also think goodness. And I'm thinking about life right now. Right. I obviously cannot think about goodness without thinking about what's going on here in LA with the fires. And. And I'm thinking of goodness as like, something that is generative. Right. That the reason that goodness is sustains, lasts, continues, is sought after, is because there is something generative about it in a way that evil just can never be. Evil can grow, evil can excite, it can incite, it can do. It can move, it can be, you know, infectious, but it does not create new. It does not create newness. It does not. It does not bring new life, new ideas. It does not inspire in the same ways, and it is almost always responsive. I feel like evil only exists because of goodness. And I guess maybe goodness only exists because of evil. But there's something that, like, goodness is progress, almost like it moves the story forward. In the interview, I believe at the end, she talks about. About slavery and what black people were able to create out of having been enslaved and all of that evilness, how. How the music and the ways they interpreted faith and the sounds and the art and the communities that sustained each other and. And all of that goodness that created something, that generated something. And I do think that that's also so important to your point of, like, making new language, finding new ways for characters to learn that goodness, when you feel it, it is so much more overwhelming.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Than evil. Even if you. You know, even when you feel evil, there's something like goodness is bigger than. Right. Like in those moments.

[Saeed Jones]

That is it. I'm so glad you pointed to. And obviously Morrison thought so much about the legacy of enslavement, because I think sometimes I see people with the wrong takeaway. I mean, I was telling with a friend the other day in 2015, 2016, I did a book event. I interviewed Colson Whitehead about the Underground Railroad at the Boston Book Festival. And Tracy, literally the first question at the Q and A after we've been talking about this for 45 minutes. The first question came from an older white man and he said, yeah, but weren't there some good things about slavery? And I just remember the whole room just like, turned on that man, you know, because it's the wrong takeaway. The point is not to go. See, there's a silver lining to even something as awful as 400 years of enslavement. The point is, look at goodness. Strength. Though we try to act like goodness is weak, frail, naive, childlike, it is actually the most mature, the most wise and the most enduring. And even a system and a history as violent and pervasive as. As slavery is not as strong as goodness. That's the lesson. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Let's take a quick break and we're going to talk about the three sort of pillars of goodness that Morrison brings to us. It's the start of the new year, and there's just something about January that feels like a blank page for me. And you know how much I love a blank page. It's full of possibility, it's exciting, it's fresh. And maybe you've been sitting on a business idea for a while, something you've dreamed about turning into reality but haven't taken the leap. I get it. I know how hard it can be to start something new. It's frankly quite overwhelming. But there's no better time than right now to start anything. And Shopify is a tool that makes things possible. They make it all possible. Shopify makes it easy to bring your idea to life. With easy to use templates, you can have your store up and running in no time. No coding or tech expertise needed. Plus, Shopify helps you reach your customers wherever they are, whether it's social media or through your website, while taking care of the logistics like payments and shipping. There's no better time to start your business than right now with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, don't you think? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com thestacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com thestacks hey y'all. Happy New Year. Same bookish you I hope. I wanted to quickly tell you about what's going on and how you can support the work of this show. As you may know, I have a Patreon. It's called the stacks [e-mail] the stacks and it's A bookish community complete with a very active discord where you get monthly bonus episodes of virtual book club meetings up. And right now we have some special offers going on all month through the end of January. When you join the Stacks Pack, you get our reading tracker, you get to vote in the Stacky Awards, and you get a shout out on this show. That perk is going to be no longer starting February 1st, so now's the time. You get all of that for just $5 a month at patreon.com the stacks. If that doesn't sound like you, I also have a newsletter called Unstacked over at Tracy Thomas substack.com where I tell you about all the books I'm reading. I give you personal hot takes about pop culture. I even rank every book I read each month. And In December of 2024, I actually ranked every single book I read from least to most favorites. You can find that and so much more over at Tracy Thomas substack. Com. If you love this show and you want to make sure that you hear it every single week, those are two incredible ways to support my work and I really appreciate it.

[C]

There's one thing that will forever change the way you sleep, and it's the softest 100% organic cotton sheets from Boll and Branch. You'll fall asleep faster wrapped in the most luxurious comfort. You'll never sleep hot again with sheets that feel breathable to sleep in. You'll experience the purest softness on night one and feel your sheets get even softer with every wash. Discover the difference with 15% off your first set of sheets at bolenbranch.com with code WONDERY15EXCLUSIONS apply. See site for details.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, we're back from our break and I want to just talk about how she in that. So in that essay, she sort of lays out these three pillars of goodness for her that she's exploring. She also says, like, I don't know anything about goodness. Like, I'm trying to figure this out for myself.

[Saeed Jones]

Like, and the only thing more confusing to her, and I love it because I was like, if Morrison's confused, then I'm much more comfortable because I'm confused all the time. She was like, altruism. She was like, what does that I love?

[Tracy Thomas]

Because do you have a negative connotation to altruism in your mind? Because I don't love it.

[Saeed Jones]

I don't love it, but I don't.

[Tracy Thomas]

Know why I feel that way. I feel like it's used as an.

[Saeed Jones]

Insult, I think, because. Okay, so I don't. So you and I both have a response to nice, because how the word nice usually functions in our culture is euphemistic for, like, docile, I think, even obedient in deference to power structures. Altruism, I think, is, I find difficult because it doesn't. It's not even a virtue. It's like something above a virtue in that I'm like, I don't even know if it's literally possible for a human being to be altruistic. And I don't mean that in a cynical way. It just says it's, like, godly. It's not a. It doesn't strike me as an especially human characteristic because it's somewhere like, five notches above good. Like in Is it Home? Like, the women who take care of Cece, like, that character, like. Like, they're. They're. They're taking care of her, and they're helping this woman heal who has been really disrespectful about them, you know, for most of her life. But they're doing it because, as Morrison points out, they don't want to die. And God asks them, what have you done? You know what I mean? They want to have something to show for themselves.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Saeed Jones]

And I just think, you know what? And hopefully you don't. They don't go around bragging, like, we did this good. You know, they know they're doing it for a spiritual reason. And I think that is great and very noble. It is not altruistic, however. You know, I just. I feel like if. If good were defined as altruism, we would all give up.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure. Sure.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. So here's what she says. Here are her three arguments, sort of that. That are different interpretations. Goodness. Yeah. Her three pillars. So one is, altruism is not an instinctive act of selflessness, but a taught and learned one. Altruist. That's number one. Number two is altruism might actually be narcissism, ego enhancement, even a mental disorder made manifest in a desperate desire to think well of oneself, to erase or diminish self loathing. And then. So number three, she's talking about some scholarship around DNA. And it says, seeking evidence of an embedded gene automatically firing to enable the sacrifice of oneself for the benefit of others. A kind of brother or sister to Darwin's survival of the fittest. And here she uses examples of, like, an animal that might sacrifice themselves so that the other animals in the colony can survive or get away or whatever that looks like. So that's sort of how the Third one manifests. Is this something that is inherent in us? You either have a good gene or you do not, or that we all have a good gene that sort of triggers goodness when needed, or altruism unneeded.

[Saeed Jones]

I also like that earlier on, she. And. And I think this is true, you know, with. Often with names, but she does some, like, word work with altruism because she sees and it alter. Like, alter the other, like, as in to do good does. Involves like, someone else. But also you hear alter. There's a holiness in it. And then also, of course, I can't, you know, all truism. I can't hear altruism without hearing truth. That there's some sense of authenticity, truthfulness to it as well, has always struck me. But, yeah, it's a. It's a difficult word and a difficult concept when you really think about it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, she starts this whole lecture with this school shooting, a schoolhouse shooting in Amish country, where a man goes to an Amish schoolhouse, tells all the adults and the boys to leave, leaving the young girls, and he shoots them. He murders them. And after this event, he's also killed the shooter. After this event, the Amish community, they embrace his widow and their family. They raise money for them. And they also circle the wagons and say, we're not going to do interviews. We're not going to talk about this. We are going to care for our own and for the family of. Of the quote, unquote, you know, evil person in this situation. And that sort of sparks Toni Morrison's interest or that's how she sets up her interest in goodness and evil in this book. And I'm wondering what you. What you make of that story, because I. I gotta be honest, I don't know that I feel like what they did is. Is any more good, like, by. By not. I don't know. I don't know that it's inherently good to not talk about. To not talk about it or to, like, not let this be a thing. I think. I don't. I don't know. I struggle. I struggled sort of with her framing of this because she talks about, like, you know, these people didn't judge the Amish killer. And I just don't know that I think that judging someone is necessarily evil. Like, I don't know that I follow her logic on some of this, obviously. Like, I do think it's very nice and good that the people took care of the widow of. Of the shooter, because I don't necessarily think it's her fault. Or the family's fault. Right. Like, I'm not suggesting that, but I do. I do think of sort of reading this response as good. I don't know, maybe that, like, the goodness is not harm free in some ways like, that it doesn't come at a cost to the Amish people. And I'm thinking also of like, after the shooting at the AME Church in Charleston, right. When the black people who. Who were victims, in the family of the victims came out and said, like, we forgive him and we embrace, you know.

[Saeed Jones]

Justified. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. And I'm like, well, okay, that is. Maybe that is goodness, but to me, it doesn't come without that. That doesn't mean that it is free of harm for other people. And I don't. And I don't know what to make of any of that.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. I'm so glad you said this. It is a true moral dilemma, which I feel like is why she uses it to open it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Saeed Jones]

It's incredible. Like, Morrison doesn't get enough credit as a philosopher, but this is what you and I are talking about. And I was always so intimidated by philosophy classes because I just felt like it was like white men talking about white men. And so I love that we're getting this from Morrison. One, in terms of where I can go with her is it sets up this phrase she uses when describing it, which is the shock of forgiveness.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Saeed Jones]

Which is incredible. And I think certainly if you have ever. I mean, certainly not on the scale of this murderous person, but, you know, if you've ever messed up and had a moment where someone just like, immediately warmly forgives you, it can be shocking. And I just hadn't seen that established in language, which is, again, like, she's translating good into language. And I was like, oh, I know exactly what she means when you're like, I don't even know if I deserve to be forgiven. Do you know what I mean? Or forgiven yet. So that was valuable. That said. Okay, so many thoughts. One, it's significant to me that this killer killed girls.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Saeed Jones]

Intentionally had, I guess, the adult women as well, but certainly the adult men, and notably the boys. The boys, the space. He killed girls. This was an act of femicide, a specific misogynist hate crime. I don't know a lot about Amish.

[Tracy Thomas]

Culture, and this shooter was not Amish, so he was from outside of the community.

[Saeed Jones]

Okay. Yeah. So I don't know a lot about Amish culture one way or another, I have to be honest. So I'm not going to make assumptions about Their gender politics. But I will say more broadly, we live in a world that takes disrespect and violence against women, femmes, queer people less seriously. So I will say that because it does feel significant. I don't know if a group of boys had been killed, it had been the same reaction. But I'm going to say, as a reader in 2020. Well, now, five, I can't ignore that. But secondly, I guess I would say, and certainly as someone who has worked in media for a long time and has come to a very complicated feeling about how media covers, for example, acts of violence, we don't know about the conversations they had within their community. All we know is that they said, we're not talking to y'all. We're going to take care of this widow. And that's it. That's all. That's all y'all are going to get for us, you know, so for all we know, I mean, I would like to. I hope. I hope. I mean, because there are mothers and fathers who lost their daughters. You know what I mean? Like, who lost their children. So I would very much hope that what they were saying is the way we are going to handle this tragedy, and it also is a tragedy that was brought upon us by an. That's the other thing. Maybe the point three, it's so complicated, is this tragedy was brought upon us by an outsider. So why would we litigate it with outsiders? We don't trust any of y'all.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Right.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. But it is. It's a really. I mean, I see. I absolutely understand why it's. And of course, it also makes me think of. And I don't know if you've gone to this in your Morrison series yet for the Stacks, but it makes me think of the plot of paradise in which. Yeah. In which women and girls who are in a religious space are all murdered. So, you know, and. And. And it's. It's interesting because I don't think paradise comes up in this lecture, but she would have written it all over it.

[Tracy Thomas]

It does. No, it does. It has the pastor or something. There's a lot of pastoring. Oh. Maybe it's not an essay. Maybe it's in the interview. Maybe it's in the interview.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. It's not. Yeah. It's not centered in the lecture as much as maybe you and I would prefer. And I think that is a reasonable pushback. Absolutely.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So. So speaking of your point about gendered ideas around goodness, one of the things that. In the interview, it's on page 234 that is said is that she's talking about writing about the male characters in Song of Solomon. And she's talking about like some of their nicknames and how like, her dad had a friend and they all called him Jim the Devil. And not just Jim, but like Jim the Devil, full name the Devil. All one word, Jim the Devil. And how that there was maybe like a warning by naming him that for others like to know. Like, that's Jim the Devil. Like, you know, that that guy might fuck you over, right?

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then he says Carrasco, when he's talking to her, he. He says, you know, this is. These. These names are a kind of socialization, a way of teaching and knowing the villains in one's slave history and its aftermath. Like, who made Jim into the devil. And by calling him that, it took some of the danger out of him and put some humor in his name. And she said, you know, men are very good to each other. Women are good to both women and men. The men will take a bullet for each other, but not for a woman like me. And I found that really interesting. She goes on to talk about the ways that soldiers and soldier narratives are all about the men on the battlefield who loved each other so much and would take a bullet for each other and how they have nightmares over the loss of their. Of their loved, their beloved soldier friends and, and. And that it's like this intimate, intimate male on male relationship. Obviously now women can serve in the military, but I think she's really talking about sort of the canonical texts and stories of men.

[Saeed Jones]

We're talking about inauguration. But also, listen, Pete Heath is today going through a confirmation to run the military, and he believes women should be taken out of the military. So it's, it's. So it's striking that, you know, even in 2025. Yeah. We're in flux. That there is a desire to. Among many, certainly not all. It would be devastating for them. Like, are you crazy? Like, the military recruitment is struggling as is. So, you know, even as someone who is against the military state, I just think practically speaking, they need all the recruits they can get. But it is striking that there is a desire to a fully homo social. That's what it's called though. They get really uncomfortable with it. A fully homosocial vision of the military. Yeah. I mean, and it also feels connected more broadly what you're saying, like men being good to men, women being good to everyone. I say this is also like, I, you know, and I. I always wanted Morrison to go further in terms of her understanding of queerness?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes.

[Saeed Jones]

Because I think queer people, you know, there, there's that sense of, of community and goodness as well. We, I, it's not everybody, as I tell people, I'm like, there are queer people and there are gay people. You know, Peter Till is gay. He is not, he is not enacting a queer politic. But, but that being said, yeah. And even for example, evil is lonely. Good, I don't feel, is usually lonely because even in like, let's say literature, like you have a good character who is on their own. They are not lonely because they're like, I'm aligned with my faith, I'm aligned with my morals, with my ancestors, with the person I'm sacrificing myself for. You know what I mean? It's not like, oh, poor me, they're like, no, I don't need you. I would rather, I would rather be good than have this facile crowd around me. You know what I mean? And I think that's significant how?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, as we wrap this up, I wanna, I wanna read this one thing she talks about, about evil because it feels, this is also in the interview, it feels so spot on for what will the images we'll probably see today on Inauguration Day. She, this is like the first page of the interview and she says, I always thought the Nazis gained followers because of their uniforms. And he says, uniforms? She says, yes, the high boots, those pants. During the period in Germany, many people were very poor. It was a lower middle class country and people were wearing the clothes from World War I. But the Nazis had this design and those uniforms were fabulous. People are still playing off the fashion of those caps and those high shiny leather boots that people felt they had to respect, almost worship the Nazis because of that. That's the nature of evil. It's theatrical. And people admire theatrical violence and try to get on the best side, the winning side, in part because it has a handsome costume, it has panache. And that to me, both times that I read this interview, stuck out in thinking about it in relationship to the incoming administration and the esthetic and significantly.

[Saeed Jones]

You know, esthetic and television understanding of the screen. Right? Because, you know, as I mentioned, Pete Headset, and it blows my mind. But you know, he comes from Fox News. He was a Fox. He was like a C list, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't even know his name.

[Saeed Jones]

I was like, he was not from the A team. But nonetheless, he understands the screen. And, and that's obviously, you know, something for Trump himself and many people, you know, in that world. And so even if they are not stylish or cool, you know, and I would, I would group Elon Musk. It's not that it's like panache, but it is an understanding of, I guess we would say showmanship that we're seeing now. And that makes sense. Like if we're, you know, like. Yeah, and I like that she contextualizes, like think about how threadbare the average German would be after World War I. And then you know, that the sartorial style functioned in a different way. We're not in that era anymore. So it's not about sartorial style. It is about the screen. It is about the optics of the screen. Whether it's your phone, your TV and hate to see it. You know what I mean? But we have to acknowledge that it has power. We do.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that the aesthetic, the like MAGA aesthetic is, is about sartorial choices. They're just different ones. It's not about showing that we have our together and we're tidy and we're tight and we're organized and we have new clothes and shiny black boots because that is not the, the country to which they're talking to. But I think it's, I think it's about showing like we're, we're everyday people like you. We dress slumpy, our clothes don't fit, we wear a trucker hat. Like we are just, just every day regular degular. You can be part of this and we can change the world with just this hat. Right? I mean, I saw the movie the Apprentice, which I really liked.

[Saeed Jones]

And in it I've been wanting to see that.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's so good. Sebastian Stan is so good. But in it, there's a scene where Trump gets a suit with Roy Cohn and it's really expensive and it's really nice suit and it fits him so well. And Roy Cohn is like, you look so good. And as I was watching it, I turned to my husband and I said, how come his suits don't fit him good now? Right? Like he used to dress better. But the slumpy suits and the loose fitting and the tie and the whole, the too long tie, it's a choice. And it is a choice that was made after learning the right way to dress. Like the way that rich people dress. So there, I think there's a performance, performance of class like Elon Musk could be put together. He's got enough Money to have 9, 000 stylists each making a million dollars a day. And yet he doesn't. Right. And so I do think that's really about trying to use your clothes.

[Saeed Jones]

It's.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm not saying this person is maga, but it's similar to what, like, Taylor Swift does. She doesn't have a stylist. She's the everyday girl, and she dresses weird. Like, it's not put together. It's not tight, it's not clean.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, wow. Tracy, I'm going. I know we're wrapping up, but I'm going to be thinking about this for some time now, because I really hadn't understood it. But to your point, if it is an intention, it's kind of savvy because there are a lot of traps that I think people who are, like, liberals, leftist, progressive or whatever, you know, just people who are against maga. Folks, there are a lot of traps. And making fun of the way people dress because they're not as dressed up or sleek is a class trap. That's really interesting.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, just think about. Think about the ways they always criticize Nancy Pelosi or. Or Kamala Harris is. Her suit is so expensive. Her outfit was so expensive. When they are put together in a certain way, I do think there's something about the clothes and the performance of the clothes that is similar to what Tony Morrison's talking about with the Nazis, but it is specific for our time and our place. And, you know, this, like, quote unquote, economic anxiety, which, you know, is. Is a way to talk about racism and classes and all these other things. But that's sort of the catchphrase if you dress like you're economically anxious. Right. Like, then you two are part of this.

[Saeed Jones]

And, you know, I've really come around on economic anxiety because people are anxious, they are worried. And so to mock economic anxiety or to mock the way they're dressed, a lot of people are like, well, I am struggling to pay my bills, and that person's dressed just like me. So, yeah, what's going on here? You know, and you're like, oh, yeah, wow. Well, that's what I mean. I mean, evil is not to be under. And I think it's. And I love that she says, like, just, you know, to. To give goodness. Language does not annihilate evil. She says. And I think it's. I always talk about, you know, especially, like, after the election, like on. On my podcast with Sam Sanders and. And Zach Stafford Vibecheck, I was like, you know, we have to do risk assessment. It is really important that people understand when they are in danger. And how you know what to look for. And, like, what you just said about, like, this, I'm like, whoa, that is really helpful information because, you know, that's the balance, and that's why good and evil live in balance. It is really important to think deeply and vulnerably about both. The problem, as Morrison notes, is that, at least in literature, we just spend so much time developing and investing in the character development. As I'm here, you know, doing workshops, the character development of evil as a theme or as characters or an antagonist rather than good. And so that's the misbalance. But you really have to do both. You really have to do both.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, we're gonna wrap up. I want to ask you. This is like a big question. And who knows? We're.

[Saeed Jones]

Saeed, are you a good person? No, no, no.

[Tracy Thomas]

This isn't therapy. I said it was a big question. It's not therapy. The question is, I guess, how are you thinking about goodness as we enter this new administration, as we look at these wildfires, as we think about climate change, as we think about Gaza, as we think about, you know, all of the harms being done? What. What is. What about goodness? Are you thinking about or working to toward or how are you approaching it? And I know that's a really big one and that's a hard one, but I do want to leave people with just some ways that they. That they could be thinking about goodness in their own life and how they can be doing good deeds or being good people.

[Saeed Jones]

Absolutely.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love as we know.

[Saeed Jones]

I. I have been thinking about this a lot, actually. Listen, I am a teacher. I have a large following and platform. It does. It doesn't do me any service to be naive about that, frankly. And so to a certain extent, I am always kind of communicating resources. I realize that I have a platform and I can use it or as I come. That's why I'm like, let me go talk to Tracy. Because you and I can have a conversation about goodness, and it can reach a lot of people. Right? So I'm always. I don't know. I think that's important. Like, if you. If you have that gift, I. I'm not. I'm not gonna step away from it. Toni. Cade Bambera wrote once on a back of a postcard, do not leave the arena to the fools. So I'm not gonna leave the arena to the fools. That being said, how am I thinking about goodness now? You know, outside of my kind of public Persona, my public self is. My goodness is offline. I I don't think it, this will always be the case, but I feel that evil has won for now, the battle of online spaces. And so that's why I say like, even as like social media influencer, I'm, I'm not leaving these arenas to the fulls because I have this platform and I don't think my, my absence is going to make things better, at least right now. But in my personal life, yeah, I think we need to do, I want to do more good offline, in part to protect the good. I want to have quiet, secret underground networks and communication that cannot be co opted and studied or surveilled by evil actors that are clearly doing that. And when I say that, I'm talking about people like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and Donald Trump. I think we need to be wary of showing our work in public because they're a part of the public too and we see that they are obsessed with them. We live in their head. Written free as we. Yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just I want to ask you kind of a follow up in your work as a writer. Does this essay, does thinking about goodness as we move forward in time, does that change how you are thinking about how you're telling stories on the page? Are you more invested in goodness? And it may be also as a teacher, like encouraging your students to lean into goodness in their work, to not be so seduced by the evil.

[Saeed Jones]

Oh, I'm always as a teacher, oh my gosh, I'm obsessed with. Because I just think, you know, I can teach you craft and the craft of writing and developing arguments and bringing stories to life. But I'm always trying to talk about, about the moral, morals and politics and as I tell my students, let's use our powers for good is what I say to all of them. And yeah, I think for me, this conversation and Morrison's lecture and essay, it's just kind of reified some work I've already been doing, particularly with the memoir I'm working on, which is about me as much as it's about some of my literary ancestors like Langston Hughes. He was a good guy. And I'm already this, it's already a theme I've been writing for months and months. But yeah, it's like investing page space, words, you know, word count in trying to understand the integrity of his goodness because, you know, he was up against so much, including family members who were just like really mean and frankly anti black, like self hating. And he really resisted it in a very quiet, joyful, persistent way. And so making sense of how he did that, how he protected his good. Yeah, that's something I'm into.

[Tracy Thomas]

I have been thinking about goodness, obviously this week especially, and feeling torn between being a public person who lives in la, who has a platform, who wants to be an example of like, what we can and should be doing, and also getting resources out, and also feeling torn about, like, not wanting to make myself to anyone, the face of this, of this fire, of this tragedy. Because, you know, I. My family was so lucky. We didn't, we didn't lose our home. We're all safe. You know, I just live here and not super close to either of the places. Right. Like 20 minute drive in either direction, but. But also wanting to feel like the work that I'm doing is, is helping in some way and feeling desperate to like, do something good for some other people who, who are needing it more than I am and, and struggling between wanting to show people, like, this is what you can do, this is what I'm doing. This is like, here's an example because so often I think people, people want to help, they want to do right, but they don't know what to do. And they, and even when you tell them like, this is what we need, we need money, people still feel like, well, like, can I send? Or like, can I, you know, so really trying to like, show people, but also like you're saying, wanting to keep a lot of this private. I shared publicly that someone who works with me on my team, she lost her home. Another woman that I work with, also lost her home. And I've shared that information publicly because those are my people and I want to make sure that people, people are taking care of them. And I've sort of adopted them as like, these are the GoFundMes that I'm really behind. Like, this is because these are my people, but also doing a ton of stuff offline with them and for them that I do not plan to share publicly at all. And that includes some things that the Stacks Pack, which is our Patreon community, has done for one of, one of these women because she is a member of the Stacks Pack that I never posted about, I never talk about. And I think trying to find the balance of. And I think this is for everybody. Even if you don't feel that you have a big platform on the Internet, you do probably have a large community in your life that you're connected to many people and it might not feel large to you, but it probably is. And you're probably very important to a Lot of people would be, my guess is like finding a way to, to be both public and private with your goodness. Finding ways, like you're saying, to share resources but also to be sort of underground networking, doing things. And I think that's hard sometimes because sometimes it's really easy just to publicly be like click here, do this and to feel like you've done enough. But in this last week I've really realized that, that it is not, it is not enough to share resources unless that is all you can do. Right. Like some people, you know, maybe you're not able to go outside in LA because the air quality is, is not safe for you and all and you don't have funds to donate or whatever that looks like. And what you can do is that, and that's what you should do. But I think if you can do more, whatever the situation is, whether it's, you know, protesting some of these anti trans bills and, and, and legislation, whether it's, you know, taking people in Gaza.

[Saeed Jones]

People who are like overwhelming.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, exactly. Like we have to be good, we have to do what we can, when we can because you never know if one day you're going to be a person who needs the support. And so my approach is like to act in good faith in the hopes that I'm, it's not altruistic. In the hopes that I earn enough credit that if I need it, people will cash me out. Right. Like that people will support me because I've done, you know, done the work in some sort of like fake karma which, you know, I don't know. That's what motivates me.

[Saeed Jones]

It's a striking image out of these wildfires that I've actually been thinking about is it feels like a perfect metaphor. The wind can change direction in an instant.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's right.

[Saeed Jones]

Someone else's strategy can become your peril like that. And that feels significant. But also I think, you know, I'm glad you're we're talking about this because I don't think good goodness usually feels good in the moment. I think it feels like a reckoning. I really liked like all of the nuances you're thinking through. You know, I, I, I'm suspicious and this is like, like we keep going back to nice. Nice feels like an easy pat on the back. Goodness good is like, it's work, it's a reckoning, it's thoughtful, it's being thoughtful and, and you're on to the next, next good act. And I think you, yeah, and I just think that is worthy And. And, you know, I don't think there's going to be an applause round. You know what I mean? I just think it's just gonna be like, we made it to the next sunset. And that. Yeah, that is good. You know?

[Tracy Thomas]

And 1. I just want to say this one more thing. I also think, to your point, goodness also feels inadequate. I think. I think if you ever feel like you've done it and you are getting that pat on the back, you probably. There's probably still work to do, right? And, like, I can again speak just from this week. So many people messaging me and being like, thank you so much for everything you're doing. You're doing so great. You must be so tired. And I'm like, yeah, sure. But, like, there's so much we need to be doing. And, like, that feeling of, like, it's not enough. It's never going to be enough. There's nothing that I could do alone that would. That would fix any of this. And that goodness not only almost feels inadequate, but also that it feels that it is something that happens in community.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Saeed Jones]

No one. No, none of us can do it all alone.

[Tracy Thomas]

You cannot do it alone. You can only do be good in community. And I think that's to the point of, like, the. The Amish people that start the essay like they did, they made a choice as a community. They circled the wagons together. They said, we are going to do this. This is who we are going to be. What they did in private, we'll never know. But what we do know is they said, together we are. This is who we are. And I think knowing that goodness relies on community is. Is hopeful and it is healing because we know that if we stick with each other, you know, as the saying goes, we're all we got. And I think that that feels sort of nice in some ways. It feels a little sad in some.

[Saeed Jones]

Ways that we've made it to nice. Well, yeah, I think that is that. This. It's funny. It's like humble, joyful inadequacy. That is, to me, perhaps why goodness is generative.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because we know seeking.

[Saeed Jones]

Yeah. I think of Rachel Katsiganza. She said at one point, in some piece of writing, out of the work comes the work. And that's kind of right. And I think about that all the time. All the time. And I think that is it, like, out of the good comes the good. Like. Like understanding that something that people. You know, there are a lot of immigration activists or like you write LGBTQ +IA activists in California, right? Now who are literally all of their energy is having to go into piecing together their home, finding shelter tonight. So, no, they can't be calling their congress people or doing other things that you know so that it's helpful. Out of the work comes the work. And it's just, it is. As long as I'm not satisfied with my goodness, I'm still alive because it means I have more good to do. You know, it's not a defeatist inadequacy. It is actually an optimistic inadequacy. And so I love that you. You brought that together. Oh, Tracy, I just.

[Tracy Thomas]

This was great.

[Saeed Jones]

I adore you.

[Tracy Thomas]

I adore you. Everyone at home, we hope so much that this is helpful or was at least a little bit of an escape or a break from whatever you're feeling and going through today, wherever you are. And I think, you know, we should continue thinking and talking about these things publicly, privately, and in any ways. And Saeed, I love you so much and thank you so much for talking shit to me so we could do this. Out of the evil comes the goodness.

[Saeed Jones]

What did Nikki Giovanni say? I'm so hip, even my errors are correct. Look at it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and a huge heartfelt thank you to Saeed Jones for being my guest on this extra special bonus episode. Don't forget, the Stacks Book Club pick for January is the Ministry of Time by Cully Ann Bradley, and we will be joined by Jay wortham on Wednesday, January 29 to discuss the novel. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my substack@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media Media at the Stacks Pod, at Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and check out our [e-mail] Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRate, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.