The Stacks Podcast: Bonus Episode Summary
Episode: "Bonus Episode: Toni Morrison, Goodness, and What Comes Next with Saeed Jones"
Release Date: January 20, 2025
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Saeed Jones

Introduction: Addressing Tragedy and Setting the Stage

[00:00] Tracy Thomas:
Traci Thomas opens the episode with a heartfelt acknowledgment of the devastating wildfires affecting Los Angeles. She reassures listeners of her and her family's safety while expressing deep sorrow for those who have lost their homes. Tracy emphasizes gratitude for the firefighters' heroic efforts and highlights the need for financial support through organizations like Inclusive Action, which is aiding outdoor workers impacted by the fires. She directs listeners to her newsletter for additional resources, setting a compassionate and community-focused tone for the episode.

The Genesis of the Conversation: A Collaboration Born from Frustration

[03:02] Tracy Thomas:
Traci recounts the origins of the episode, describing how conversations with Saeed Jones about personal grievances led to the idea of discussing Toni Morrison's lecture on goodness and the literary imagination as a form of counter-programming against the political climate surrounding inauguration day. This backstory underscores the organic and genuine nature of their discussion.

[05:09] Saeed Jones:
Saeed affirms the intent to "talk ourselves through it," highlighting the collaborative and introspective approach they intend to take in exploring the themes of goodness and evil.

Exploring Toni Morrison's "Goodness and the Literary Imagination"

[06:34] Tracy Thomas:
Traci introduces the primary focus of the episode: Toni Morrison's essay and the book titled Toni Morrison, Goodness and the Literary Imagination, edited by Daveed Carrasco, Stephanie Paul Sell, and Mara Willard. She outlines the book's structure, including essays from various academics and an interview between Carrasco and Morrison, setting the foundation for their in-depth discussion.

[07:44] Saeed Jones:
Saeed shares his deep personal connection to Toni Morrison, referring to her as the "well" he turns to when his "soul is dehydrated" (01:15). He emphasizes the importance of Morrison's work in navigating contemporary issues like climate catastrophe and political upheaval.

Goodness and Evil in Literature: A Historical Perspective

[07:44 - 14:48] Saeed Jones & Tracy Thomas:
The conversation delves into Morrison's analysis of how literature has historically treated goodness and evil. Saeed recalls Morrison's observation that before World War I, literature often focused on goodness prevailing, whereas post-war literature shifted to a more complex portrayal of good and evil. This shift mirrored the global disillusionment brought about by the wars, leading to a literary landscape where "everyone's a bad guy" (19:18).

Traci connects this historical shift to the current sociopolitical climate, questioning whether contemporary literature will return to a focus on goodness or continue to explore the pervasive nature of evil amidst events like the 2016 election and ongoing global crises.

The Quiet Nature of Goodness vs. the Pervasiveness of Evil

[07:44] Saeed Jones:
Saeed elaborates on the idea that goodness is often "quiet" and "intimate," acting within small circles without seeking publicity. In contrast, evil is described as "everywhere," adept at cloaking itself in language that can seduce even the most discerning individuals.

[10:05] Tracy Thomas:
Traci resonates with Saeed's observation, sharing her fascination with how literature post-World War I shifted from clear-cut good vs. evil narratives to more nuanced explorations of evil, often embodied in characters who are morally ambiguous or outright antagonistic.

The Complexity of Altruism and Its Role in Goodness

[32:46] Saeed Jones:
Saeed discusses Morrison's three pillars of goodness, starting with altruism. He challenges the notion of altruism as a purely selfless act, suggesting it can sometimes stem from narcissism or ego enhancement. He references Morrison's idea that if goodness were defined solely as altruism, it might not be sustainable, as people could become disillusioned or self-serving.

[35:57] Saeed Jones:
Continuing on altruism, Saeed touches on the debate around whether altruistic behavior is genetically embedded, akin to Darwin's "survival of the fittest." This discussion highlights the complexity of defining and understanding the roots of goodness in human behavior.

Goodness in Response to Tragedy: The Amish Community Example

[32:29] Tracy Thomas:
Traci presents Morrison's example of the Amish community's response to a tragic school shooting. Instead of condemning the shooter, the community embraces his widow and focuses on healing collectively. This act of forgiveness sparks Morrison's exploration of goodness in the face of evil.

[34:24] Saeed Jones:
Saeed reflects on the moral dilemma presented by the Amish response, acknowledging the difficulty in interpreting such actions. He emphasizes Morrison's concept of the "shock of forgiveness," where unexpected acts of goodness challenge our understanding of deservingness and moral behavior.

Literary Representation of Good and Evil: Simplification vs. Realism

[14:48] Tracy Thomas:
Traci contrasts literary portrayals of good and evil with real-life complexities. She observes that literature often simplifies moral distinctions for clarity, whereas in reality, individuals can embody both good and evil traits simultaneously. This simplification can lead to binary portrayals that don't accurately reflect the nuanced nature of human morality.

[18:38] Saeed Jones:
Saeed agrees, noting that contemporary literature and media tend to present a paradox where "everyone's a little bit evil," which complicates efforts to identify and sustain goodness in society. He cites examples like Alice Munro's focus on themes of regret and loss over outright goodness, reinforcing Morrison's observations.

The Generative Nature of Goodness and Its Sustenance

[25:43] Tracy Thomas:
Traci discusses Morrison's view that goodness is "generative," meaning it creates newness and progress, unlike evil, which is reactive and destructive. She connects this to community efforts in rebuilding and inspiring resilience amidst the wildfires in LA, illustrating how collective goodness fosters positive change.

[22:35] Saeed Jones:
Saeed elaborates on Morrison's assertion that society sustains goodness by "talking about it, depicting it, and communicating it." He underscores the importance of portraying goodness in art and literature to empower self-knowledge and moral growth, rather than allowing evil to dominate narratives.

Aesthetic Representation of Goodness and Evil: Lessons from the Past and Present

[47:45] Tracy Thomas & Saeed Jones:
Traci and Saeed explore Morrison's analysis of how aesthetic choices, such as uniforms, have historically symbolized evil, referencing the Nazis' impactful attire. They draw parallels to contemporary political aesthetics, discussing how appearance and presentation play roles in the perception and perpetuation of good and evil in society.

Saeed reflects on current political figures and movements, noting how sartorial choices are leveraged for image and influence, much like historical symbols of evil. This discussion highlights the enduring power of visual representation in shaping moral narratives.

Community and the Collective Effort of Goodness

[66:04] Tracy Thomas:
Traci emphasizes that goodness thrives within communities. She shares her efforts both publicly and privately to support those affected by the wildfires, balancing visibility with the need for private, community-based support. Tracy advocates for collective action, noting that "goodness relies on community," which fosters hope and healing.

[66:02] Saeed Jones:
Saeed concurs, illustrating that individual acts of goodness are insufficient without community support. He advocates for "quiet, secret underground networks" that operate away from public scrutiny to protect and sustain communal goodness, especially against powerful adversaries.

Goodness as an Ongoing, Generative Process

[64:24] Saeed Jones:
Saeed compares the unpredictable nature of wildfires to the struggle between good and evil, emphasizing that goodness isn't a destination but an ongoing process. He describes goodness as "humble, joyful inadequacy," suggesting that its generative quality lies in its continuous, collective effort rather than any final fulfillment.

[66:59] Tracy Thomas:
Traci reinforces this by discussing how goodness often feels inadequate, driving individuals to continue striving without seeking external validation. She highlights the importance of community support, stating, "You cannot do it alone. You can only do be good in community," embodying the essence of generative goodness.

Conclusion: Embracing Generative Goodness in Community

[68:01] Saeed Jones & Traci Thomas:
In their closing remarks, Saeed and Traci reaffirm the importance of ongoing, community-based efforts to sustain goodness. Saeed encapsulates Morrison's philosophy by stating, "out of the good comes the good," emphasizing that each act of goodness fosters further positive actions. Traci echoes this sentiment, encouraging listeners to balance public and private acts of goodness to support and uplift their communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Traci Thomas [01:15]:
  "She's become the well that I go to when my soul is dehydrated."

• Saeed Jones [19:18]:
  "Everyone's a little bit evil."

• Traci Thomas [25:43]:
  "Goodness is generative... it creates newness and progress."

• Saeed Jones [66:45]:
  "Humble, joyful inadequacy. That is, to me, perhaps why goodness is generative."

Key Takeaways:

1. Goodness in Literature vs. Real Life:
   Toni Morrison's exploration highlights the shift in literature from clear-cut depictions of goodness triumphing to more nuanced portrayals of morality, reflecting societal disillusionment post-conflict periods.

2. Quiet Nature of Goodness:
   Goodness often operates silently within communities, contrasting with the pervasive and seductive nature of evil.

3. Complexity of Altruism:
   Altruism may stem from self-serving motives, challenging the notion of pure selflessness and complicating the understanding of goodness.

4. Aesthetic Symbolism:
   Visual representations, such as uniforms, play a significant role in symbolizing and perpetuating perceptions of good and evil.

5. Community as the Foundation of Goodness:
   Sustaining goodness requires collective effort and community support, emphasizing that individual acts, while important, are more effective when embedded within a communal framework.

6. Generative Process of Goodness:
   Goodness continuously fosters new positive actions, driven by a shared commitment to community and mutual support.

7. Balancing Public and Private Goodness:
   Successfully contributing to goodness involves both visible acts that inspire others and private efforts that protect and support community members effectively.

This episode of The Stacks offers a profound exploration of goodness and evil through the lens of Toni Morrison's work, enriched by the insightful dialogue between Traci Thomas and Saeed Jones. Their discussion not only delves into literary analysis but also connects these themes to pressing real-world issues, encouraging listeners to reflect on and engage with goodness in their own lives and communities.