The Stacks Podcast: Episode 343 – The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead with Franklin Leonard

Release Date: October 30, 2024

Introduction

In Episode 343 of The Stacks, host Tracy Thomas welcomes Hollywood producer and creator of The Blacklist, Franklin Leonard, to delve deep into Colson Whitehead's acclaimed novel, The Nickel Boys. This Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award-winning work is not only a poignant exploration of racial injustice in the Jim Crow South but also spearheads discussions on how literature reflects and shapes our understanding of culture, race, and politics.

Overview of The Nickel Boys

The Nickel Boys is set in the 1960s Florida and follows Elwood Curtis, a young Black boy unjustly sent to the brutal Nickel Academy, a reform school that harbors systemic abuses. The narrative intertwines Elwood's unwavering moral compass with his friendship with Turner, another inmate whose strategies for survival starkly contrast Elwood's idealism.

First Impressions and Emotional Impact

Franklin Leonard shares his profound emotional response to the novel:

"I was flattened by this book. And absolutely heartbroken by it... It just obliterated me in so many ways." [07:49]

Tracy Thomas echoes a similar sentiment, highlighting the gut-wrenching twist that redefines the narrative:

"The ending was so important, I think, for my love of the book... a twist and that that was so much of the emotional resonance." [08:18]

Leonard recounts his dual role in moderating Q&As for the upcoming film adaptation, which intensified his engagement with the story:

"I was reading it in sort of double capacity... It was like, this is a win. I have to read a book that I've wanted to read for a while." [07:03]

Character Analysis: Elwood Curtis vs. Turner

Elwood Curtis embodies the archetype of the "goody two-shoes," driven by a steadfast belief in righteousness and the American Dream. His actions are fueled by his admiration for Martin Luther King Jr., symbolizing hope and moral integrity.

Turner, on the other hand, represents survival through strategic detachment and emotional distance. Their contrasting philosophies form the crux of the novel’s exploration of resilience and adaptability in the face of oppression.

Franklin Leonard provides a nuanced interpretation of Elwood’s pure-heartedness:

"He represents this belief that there is right and there's wrong and you do the right thing... that is what gives us reverence." [24:16]

However, Tracy Thomas challenges the admiration of Elwood's naivety, suggesting a more cynical view:

"His lack of understanding about the world is not admirable... It’s too pathetic. It’s too naive." [26:12]

Themes: Moral Choices and Survival

The conversation delves into the central themes of moral integrity versus survival tactics. Leonard emphasizes the existential dilemma faced by Elwood and Turner:

"If we don't want things like the Dozier School for Boys to happen... How do we speak up?" [27:40]

Thomas reflects on the broader implications for society and personal identity:

"We're just not taking care of the kids. And it's really devastating." [49:33]

The discussion highlights how The Nickel Boys serves as a metaphor for systemic racism and the enduring impact of historical injustices on individual lives and societal structures.

The Twist Ending

One of the most compelling aspects discussed is the novel’s twist: the revelation that the adult Elwood Curtis is, in fact, Turner, who assumes Elwood’s identity after his death. This narrative device compels readers to reassess their understanding of the characters and the story's moral complexities.

Franklin Leonard appreciates the subtle clues leading to the twist:

"I think that’s one of the clues that Coulson gives us throughout the book... the second reading, or imagined second reading." [32:55]

Comparison with the Film Adaptation

The upcoming film adaptation, directed by Romel Ross, attempts to capture the novel's depth through its unique cinematography, presenting the story through the protagonists' perspectives. Leonard praises the film's emotional weight and faithful representation:

"It's a movie where you are... like I said, I was flattened by the book. I was flattened by the movie in the same way." [65:23]

However, challenges arise in translating the book’s internal narratives to a visual medium, particularly in portraying the twist effectively. Tracy Thomas questions the casting choices regarding the characters’ appearances, noting the difficulty in visually differentiating Elwood and Turner while maintaining narrative coherence.

Reflection on Systemic Injustice

The discussion extends to contemporary parallels, with both Leonard and Thomas drawing connections between the novel's depiction of institutionalized racism and modern-day injustices within juvenile systems and societal structures.

Franklin Leonard underscores the persistent nature of these issues:

"The school to prison pipeline alone. Right. The way in which your average kid in school, black kids are punished more than white kids. That is true in 2024." [48:37]

Tracy Thomas expresses frustration over the lack of progress:

"We are just not taking care of the kids. And it's really devastating." [49:33]

They highlight the importance of recognizing and addressing these systemic flaws to prevent the perpetuation of such injustices.

Notable Quotes

1. Franklin Leonard on Elwood’s Moral Compass

   "He represents this belief that there is right and there's wrong and you do the right thing." [24:16]

2. Tracy Thomas on the Book’s Emotional Resonance

   "The ending was so important... a twist and that that was so much of the emotional resonance." [08:18]

3. Franklin Leonard on Surviving Systems

   "How do we fight back? And I think that's really the thing that is in a moment like the one that we're in now." [28:03]

4. Tracy Thomas on Modern Parallels

   "We will still love you, but be assured that we will wear you down by our capacity to suffer." [52:21]

Conclusion

Episode 343 of The Stacks offers a profound exploration of The Nickel Boys, shedding light on the intricate dynamics between its characters and the broader societal issues it mirrors. Through insightful dialogue, Tracy Thomas and Franklin Leonard unravel the layers of Whitehead's narrative, emphasizing the enduring relevance of its themes. The episode not only deepens listeners' understanding of the novel but also fosters a critical examination of systemic injustices that continue to shape our world.

As they wrap up, the hosts tease the next book club selection, Luster by Raven Leilani, promising another engaging discussion on complex, thought-provoking literature.

Join The Stacks Community

For those eager to dive deeper, The Stacks invites listeners to become part of the Stacks Pack on Patreon, offering exclusive access to bonus content, virtual book club meetups, and a vibrant literary community. Stay updated and engage with fellow book enthusiasts by following The Stacks on social media and subscribing to their newsletter at substack.com/tracythomas.

This summary captures the essence of Episode 343, focusing on the substantive discussion between Tracy Thomas and Franklin Leonard regarding The Nickel Boys, while omitting promotional segments and non-content sections.