Ep. 345 The Fear of Vulnerability with Jason Reynolds

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep. 345 "The Fear of Vulnerability" with Jason Reynolds

Introduction to the Guest and His Work

In Episode 345 of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes back the acclaimed author and MacArthur Genius, Jason Reynolds. They delve into Reynolds' latest work, 24 Seconds from Now, a heartfelt exploration of young love and the intricacies of teenage relationships. The book employs a unique reverse timeline to capture the subtle dynamics of intimacy, family, and personal growth.

Themes in "24 Seconds from Now": Masculinity and Vulnerability

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the portrayal of masculinity and the fear of vulnerability among young boys. Reynolds articulates, “[06:34] I think boyhood is such a cabinet of secrets... the fear of vulnerability, the fear of one's own emotions” (Reynolds). He challenges traditional stereotypes of boys as inherently aggressive or emotionally detached, emphasizing the importance of recognizing their humanity beyond societal expectations.

Challenges of Writing About Young Love and Sex

Reynolds discusses the delicate balance required when writing about sensitive topics like young love and sex. “[08:59] I don't write a sex scene because I just couldn't do it... there's a level of responsibility that one has” (Reynolds). He explains his decision to avoid explicit scenes, opting instead to focus on the emotional and psychological aspects of the characters' experiences. This approach underscores his commitment to portraying relationships authentically without compromising the integrity of his young audience.

Representation in YA Literature: Healthy Black Relationships

The conversation shifts to the landscape of Young Adult (YA) literature, where Reynolds points out a noticeable scarcity of healthy heterosexual relationships among Black protagonists. “[11:46] People believe that a healthy black heterosexual YA romance is like painting white paint on a white wall... there's nothing interesting about it” (Reynolds). He critiques the industry's assumption that drama and conflict are prerequisites for compelling stories, advocating for more nuanced and positive representations of Black relationships.

The Role of Storytelling in Shaping Perceptions

Reynolds emphasizes the power of storytelling in challenging and reshaping societal narratives. “[20:32] There is a danger in catering. There is no danger in connecting... I'm trying to connect with boys so that I can bring them into conversations about being whole human beings” (Reynolds). He believes that by presenting relatable and diverse characters, authors can foster empathy and broaden young readers' understanding of different experiences.

The Literary Canon and Jason Reynolds' Place in It

Reynolds reflects on his role within the literary canon, particularly in comparison to classic texts like The Great Gatsby or Catcher in the Rye. “[40:21] My knee-jerk reaction is, no, I don't think about those books... I'm trying to stand next to Zora Neale Hurston” (Reynolds). He underscores the importance of contemporary Black authors gaining recognition alongside established canonical works, ensuring that diverse voices are included in educational settings and literary discussions.

Impact of Reynolds' Work on Readers and Legacy

Reynolds shares heartfelt anecdotes illustrating the profound impact his books have had on readers. “[51:45] I was in the UPS store, and a lady said, 'He's changed the way thousands of Black boys see themselves in the world now...'” (Reynolds). These stories highlight how his portrayal of Black youth provides validation and inspiration, fostering a sense of self-worth and possibility among his audience.

Future Directions and Closing Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Reynolds underscores the ongoing responsibility of authors to contribute to meaningful narratives that reflect diverse experiences. “[63:25] Why can't she be across the table from some Black man who... and it's just a beautiful love story about their thing” (Reynolds). He advocates for the creation of more inclusive stories that celebrate authentic relationships without relying on harmful tropes or stereotypes.

Notable Quotes:

• Jason Reynolds [06:34]: “Boyhood is such a cabinet of secrets... the fear of vulnerability, the fear of one's own emotions.”

• Jason Reynolds [08:59]: “I don't write a sex scene because I just couldn't do it... there's a level of responsibility that one has.”

• Jason Reynolds [11:46]: “People believe that a healthy black heterosexual YA romance is like painting white paint on a white wall... there's nothing interesting about it.”

• Jason Reynolds [20:32]: “There is a danger in catering. There is no danger in connecting... I'm trying to connect with boys so that I can bring them into conversations about being whole human beings.”

• Jason Reynolds [40:21]: “My knee-jerk reaction is, no, I don't think about those books... I'm trying to stand next to Zora Neale Hurston.”

• Jason Reynolds [51:45]: “I was in the UPS store, and a lady said, 'He's changed the way thousands of Black boys see themselves in the world now...'”

• Jason Reynolds [63:25]: “Why can't she be across the table from some Black man who... and it's just a beautiful love story about their thing.”

Conclusion

Episode 345 of The Stacks offers an insightful and engaging conversation with Jason Reynolds, exploring critical themes of masculinity, vulnerability, and representation in young adult literature. Reynolds' thoughtful reflections and commitment to authentic storytelling provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the challenges and responsibilities faced by contemporary authors in shaping young minds and fostering a more inclusive literary landscape.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

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[Jason Reynolds]

All right, everybody, I am of course so excited to bring to you, friend of the pod, one of my favorite people in the book world, but maybe, period, just the greatest. Jason Reynolds. He's here today for his newest book. It's called 24 seconds from now. I'm going to let him tell you about it, but Jason, welcome back to the Stacks.

Thanks, Tracy. Always good to see you.

Always good to see you. I feel like I was like, ah, there's Jason. Okay, tell the people in about 24 seconds or less what the book is about.

Nice. 24 seconds from now is a love story from the perspective of a kid named Neon Benton, who's in love with his girlfriend Aria. And they've been together for two years and have decided that their ready to have sex. And so this is the story of his interior workings as he navigates and connects to that part of himself. And trying to figure out how to manage that part of his relationship with his other half.

Okay, so what's great for me is that I remember talking about this book with you on tour. This is. I think. I think at the time you said it was the first time you were really talking about the book publicly, and you sort of told us about it, and everyone in the audience was like, ooh, it's gonna be, like, so intense. Like, whatever. People are gonna freak out. Have the people freaked out? Are you getting pushback at all about writing this book about young kids and sex?

No, strangely enough, so far, I haven't really gotten. Not that I. Here's the thing. I don't really look for it, so maybe it might be sort of going through the gauntlet of censorship, but I haven't heard anything yet. Yeah, it's weird. Usually there's always such a fuss, but. No, not yet. But this also means that, like, there are probably libraries that never got it. There are probably schools that never got it. Right. It just never entered in, let alone be taken out.

Right, right, right. I want to. Okay. I want to know why you wanted to write this book. I've heard you talk about, like, sort of how you wrote it that you, like, you know, thought of. You talked to your brother, you talked to your friends. But I just want to know, like, where this idea even came from for you and why it was one that stuck. Like, why it was one that was worth actually writing a book about for you.

Yeah. I think, to be honest with you, I think there are lots of things that are never quite spoken about as it pertains to boyhood. Right. As it pertains to childhood in general. But I think boyhood is such a cabinet of secrets for all sorts of reasons. Right. The fear of vulnerability, the fear of one's own emotions. Right. I think boys have been raised to be afraid of themselves. I think there's all sorts of implications of what it might mean to have a healthy sexual relationship with yourself and your partner. Because the boy is supposed to be a walking penis, Right. He's supposed to sort of be some strange, rabid animal who is on the hunt and on the prowl and all, you know, all the ways that we talk about what it is to be a teenage boy. And I just. I just don't know if that's the full story. Right. Are hormones raging? Absolutely. Hormones are raging. Testosterone is at a high, and. And curiosity is even higher. Right. Those things are true, but it does not suddenly dehumanize the boy. Those things don't override the boy's sort of personality and his humanity. Now, social pressures might do that sometimes, but who we. But who we really are or who I was and who most of my friends were, were, like sweethearts, right? Right. We were gentlemen and we were knuckleheads both. Right. Like, I missed the days of the gentleman gangster when they used to talk about the gentleman gangster, right? Where they were these guys who were like, you knew, they were kind of bad guys, but they. But they were sweet and they were kind and they were gentle. Right. And I. And I. And though I'm no gangster, I think there is something about the balance of, like, yes, this boy is the sort of stereotypical rambunctious boy and also. And also a cupcake, because that's closer to the truth.

Right. Do you feel like in writing about this stuff, like, is it a challenge for you because you're an adult? And like, this is such. When I think about, like, writing about kids and sex, I'm sort of like, isn't that weird for an adult to do that? But then I'm also like, well, your job is to write about things for kids, so. But do you feel like you struggle to, like, find that balance of, like, I don't want to be creepy or, like, pervy or whatever? Like, I don't want people to think that. Like, do you hear what I'm getting at?

Yeah, of course. Of course. I mean, it's the reason why there's no actual sex scene in the book. Sure, Right. Like, I don't. I don't write a sex scene because I just couldn't do it. Right. I was like, ah, that's too much for me. Right. Like, and I know people are like, no, you gotta be an artist. Just make your art. I'm like, yeah, there's some level of responsibility that one has to move with, especially when you're writing for this population. So there's no actual sex scene. And as you know, the book moves backwards. So we have this sort of interesting scene in the beginning of the book where it. Where it's sort of, you know, it's as hot and bothered as it gets. And then it moves in the opposite direction so that we actually don't see the sex scene. The sex scene would be in the future, but we're going into the past. Right. So. So, of course. But the other thing is, is that I understand what it is to be a man, to be a heterosexual, cisgendered male.

Right.

And the. And the energy that comes with that.

Right.

And so it was so. So there was no way for me to remove or to pretend like whatever that energy is would show itself in the language and in the work. Even if I got it right, right, My arg. Like Judy Blume could have written the sex scene ten times over, right? Some of my contemporaries could have written the sex scene 10 times over. Some of them have written many, many sex scenes and write books. But because they are women or because they are queer, it doesn't necessarily read with the same tone that it perhaps would had it been me writing about two teenagers having sex. It's a weird sort of thing that I really had to think about and make some tough decisions. And it's that very thing, by the way, Tr Also in the subtext trying to address in the book, right? Like, do young boys understand what it is to be in that body? Do they understand the energy that they bring into a room? Do they understand how temperature can change if they aren't aware or intentional about who they are and how they are around their counterparts?

Okay, so, but do you have, like. I guess my question is how come there are so many YA books that involve sex that are written by women and like, queer people like romance? Like, there's so many. I feel like there's so many queer YA romances in a way that, like, I just don't even. It doesn't feel. I mean, obviously I'm not a huge YA reader, so this is what I see. But I just like, there's so many stories about like, queer children in romantic relationships and not as many that I feel like are especially like, with black kids or brown kids that are heterosexual relationships or healthy heterosexual relationships. Like, you have some where it's like, like it's like abusive or like the, like the girl. But I feel like these, like, healthy heterosexual relationships in YA books I just do not see. And I'm wondering, like, if you have a sense for as to why.

Oh, because I don't think. I think that people believe that a healthy black heterosexual YA fantas. I mean, YA romance, I think the assumption is they wouldn't sell, I think on one side of it, from a business model. I think people feel like a healthy black couple is painting white paint on a white wall. Right. And that there's nothing sort of interesting about it. Now we know this isn't true, right? Of course. But I think the assumption is there has to be drama, there has to be conflict. You know, there's no real conflict in this story. No, there's no, there's. Somebody said this is a departure for most of your stories, but it's really not. Right. Most of my stories are about sort of how do we explore the interior lives of young people. Yes, that's it. Right. Sometimes there are moments that are, that are really complicated. Yes, that happens. But if you look at a lot of my stories, if you look at sort of look both ways. If you look at the rest of the track series, not Ghosts, but even in Ghosts, the first three pages are traumatic, but the rest of the book has nothing to do with it.

Right, right.

And most of my stories are really about like, what would it be like if we were to. Able to, if we were able to cut a slice out of the black pie and say, here is just a moment, what would it be like if we were Steve McQueen making small acts. Right. Making those, making those movies. Right. And this was, and this was Lovers Rock where we're going to have two hours of a dance party where black people are just going to enjoy themselves and there's not going to be any big blow up. Nothing's going to happen.

Right. Well, that's sort of the central question of erasure. Right. Have you read that Personal Everett?

It's like, of course, of course.

Yeah, like that. I mean, I think, like that's actually a central question. I think for a lot of black artists just in their work is like, how can I tell a story about blackness that isn't the kind of story about blackness or not even about blackness, but that is centering black people. That isn't the kind of story that white people want or like things that we're about.

Which is, which is, which is a complicated thing because so much of what white people want we have ingested and have learned or at least believe that it is what we want. Right, right. And so, and so now the white gaze becomes something that is a lot more. It's a lot more ethereal than I think we give credit to.

Right.

And because of that, and because of that becomes a lot more insidious. So a prime example would be people saying like, yo, so like he really is sweet and like he's not like super sexy. He's not all over her. He's not this, that and the third. And it's like, yeah, because black boys get to be late bloomers.

Right.

Why does that seem so strange to so many people that a 17 year old might be inexperienced?

Right? Right.

But only in the black world. Nobody cares if a white boy is inexperienced at 17.

Right? Right, right, right.

He's sweet.

How much were you thinking about that as you're crafting the characters. Like, are you. Does this character come to you and you're like, oh, this is just like this sweet boy? Or are you thinking, like, I want to push back against this stuff as I'm writing this character or writing the story?

Both. A little bit of both. You know, I mean, I think just inherently, I'm always trying to push back. I'm always trying to. I'm always trying to sort of, you know, be subversive in subtle ways, right? Where it's like, look, the truth is, is that a black boy gets to be a late bloomer. A black. This particular black boy. It's the same thing I did in, like, you look at all American boys making the choice to make sure that he's not the basketball player. He's not. Right? He's just a regular kid in ROTC who wants to be an artist. Right? Because those kids exist, right? And so it's really about sort of scanning the black landscape or the landscape of all young people and saying, like, what do I get to pluck out and say, like, let's explore what this kid might be like? The kid who loves manga. The kid loves the anime. The kid who wants to put on a costume and go to a con, but also loves listening to, like, super hardcore 90s hip hop. The kid who. Right. Like. Because those kids are all over the place.

Right, right, right, right.

So. So. So. So it's really about, like, what makes sense to me and feels right for me for the story I want to tell. What. What would sort of. What would sort of invigorate me in the telling of a story while also being subversive about the images in which we see. The limited images in which we see black children, let alone black boys, to be.

I've always wanted to ask you about this, and it's just never come up, but I think now's a good time. I know we have talked about audience, you and I, many times about that. You write for children. You write for young black children, right? And you put these stories into the world. But I also know that you're an extremely smart, thoughtful human who is very aware of your work and how it enters the world. So I know that you know that plenty of white women, adults and teachers and administrators and parents are reading your work. How much are you thinking about them in your writing, knowing that oftentimes they are the gatekeepers for the books, getting to your target audience, right? That, like, not every kid can go to the store and just buy a book? Like that they have to get it through their school library. So how much is that sort of secondary, but very, you know, large part of your audience in your mind as you're writing stories?

None.

None.

I don't think about it. No, no, no, no. I don't think about that. You know, I have a theory. I have. I have. I have this theory that the biggest misconception about being a black artist is that you have to sway toward the white. The white audience.

Yeah.

And the reason why. And the reason why is because white people have never had a problem with engaging with whatever they want to engage with specifically as it pertains to things outside of themselves. White people have always loved black art. There's no reason for you to go and chase them. They've been chasing you forever, Right. All you have to do is do your thing and do it well and they'll show up. It's no different than if I was years ago. Me and my buddy was like, we'll open a coffee shop in the neighborhood and we'll make sure people know it's black owned. And my buddy was like, but if it's black owned, like, what. How would. Like, what if. Like, it limits our. It limits our demographic of people who go and buy coffee. No, it won't.

Right.

Because white folk go where they want to go, Right. It's black folk who feel a little more trepidation with walking into an establishment that they feel like they're unwanted in. But white folk go wherever they want to go, right? And so that's the way. So, like, when it comes to me writing the books, I'm not thinking about them. Not because I'm not grateful that they are buying and reading and passing these books to their kids. It's not that at all. It's that they're not my target. And I know they're going to come, Right. I know that they're already baked in because they don't have the fear and trepidation because they are teaching our kids and looking after these young folk because they are librarians, because they are trying to. Some of them are trying to connect. Right? So, like, I. Nah, it's not a concern.

Right. I didn't mean it as a concern, but just more of like, is it in your head at all as you create? But no.

Nah.

Okay. I think this is a good segue because this. So you and I are recording for people who are listening. We're recording two days after the election, which is like a crazy time to record anything, I feel like. And I Maybe only would ever do this with you. So thank you for agreeing. But I also knew this episode was gonna go up after the election, and I sort of didn't want the first episode after the election to act like we had no idea what happened. And, like, we recorded this six months ago. Because that's a crazy feeling when you're listening to a thing. But one of the things I've been thinking a lot about before in the lead up to, and now certainly afterwards, is men and boys. I think a friend of the show, Sarah Hildreth, she's got an Instagram called Fiction Matters and a substack, and she wrote this great piece, she was a former English teacher about boy books and girl books and how in school there is this push to teach certain books to all kids. But when other books that maybe center a female protagonist or are about, like, women things, for example, she uses Jane Austen and she uses, like, Beloved as an example. There's this pushback, like, oh, well, boys won't be able to relate to these books. And it's a little bit of what you were just talking about about, like, white folks go wherever they want. They'll take whatever. They'll engage with whatever art they want, go to whatever coffee shop they want. And I'm wondering if. If this, like, catering to boys is part of our problem right now, that, like, young boys and adult boys who are also known as men, cannot empathize and relate and read into the experiences of other people because we've never asked them to do that work.

That's a very, very good point, and I would agree. And also I would say that there is a danger in catering. There is no danger in connecting. So to cater. Right. Argues that we're placating boys.

Yeah.

And what I'm trying to do, what I've been trying to do for so long, is to connect with them so that I can bring them along into the conversations about all the other things that we need them to know, to be whole human beings in the world and to engage with the stories of women and girls and queer folk and everyone else in this world. But I think that by the time they get to the age in which we start having these conversations, they've already been socialized a particular way. We act as though they just become right. But the truth of the matter is this begins very, very, very, very young. Right. When it comes to what a boy can play with, when it comes to sort of how a boy can. Can feel or not feel, right. Boys are told to get up and not to cry. Boys are told to brush it off and walk it off. Boys are told to be tough. Boys are told to do right. We learn. Even. Even those of us who were raised. I'm from a, you know, got Southern parents, right? We were raised to be. To be chivalrous at, like, five. Right, Right. I like five. And some might argue that, like, oh, yeah, it's gentlemanly. But others might argue that, like, immediately you infantilize women. Right. You've been taught to infantilize women. Right. And from a subconscious level. And so I think by the time they get to me, I'm trying to connect for some undoing. I'm trying to connect so that I can soften the palate and say, hey, there's actually a big world out here that you actually will not survive in, not in a healthy way. If you can't understand how to be more whole and broaden your sort of view about what is important in this world and who. Who else is important in this world? But I agree that the boy book, girl book thing, the. The who can play what sport, it's everywhere, right?

How do you make sure you're connecting and not catering? How do you approach it in that way?

Well, I think that for me, the key to connection is. I always say this is humility, intimacy, and gratitude. And what that means in the context of a book is stepping into the space, knowing that I don't know everything and therefore sort of doing the extra work to write a kid who's put in spaces to be made humble or to be humble or to exercise a level of humility. And I mean humble in a very particular context here. I know we have all these sort of. These days, people are like, humility is not a thing. It's not a good thing. And what I mean is I think that they're. When I'm saying humility, I mean openness, right? I mean openness. And I think once. Once we. They can see themselves, because that's the other thing, right. All I'm trying to do is tell their secrets back to them. And once you. And once they know that you know, then there's no reason to keep up the mask, right? That's the other thing that we forget is that you got all these boys living in, like, in high school or in middle school who are pretending it's all posturing, right? And so what happens if somebody says, you know, I know, you got on a mask. Right? Right. It's like. It's like Tyler. It's like Tyler, the creator's New rollout, right. Where he's wearing a mask of himself, a mask of his own face. Right, Right. That's. That's literally what it is for so many of these young men. It's not that they're tough guys. It's not that they're. Look, they're like this. It's like. It's like chauvinistic seedlings.

Right?

Right. It's like. But. But there's still time. There's still time to. To, like, prune. There's still time to change the course of a particular pollination. Right. We have time, but that would require us to sort of let them know that we know that, like, I can see you. I know you a cupcake. It's the same thing, Tracy. I always talk about this. It's like every. Everybody in a heterosexual relationship knows that their man loves to be the little spoon.

Right?

But nobody outside of that relationship would know that.

Right? Right.

And the reason why is because they all wear masks. We all sort of walk around grabbing ourselves and sort of, like, posturing and all this nonsense, dick swinging. That does not help us, at least. As a matter of fact, I'd even go as far as to say. And I don't know if we've had this conversation yet. I know me and Darnell have talked about this. I'd even go as far as to say that I want in my books and in my life to dismantle masculinity on the whole, even if only for me. Right. To completely take it apart. And people are always like, but you don't feel like you need any of it. No one can tell me what part of it has actually served my life.

Right.

They're like, what about the protective aspect? Protection is inherent in human beings. It's a part of our sympathetic nervous systems. You protect them, boys, just as fast as Mr. Stacks would.

Right, of course. Of course.

Of course.

And it's so interesting because I feel like protectiveness is a thing that's associated with women because of maternal. Whatever, instincts. As you were talking, I was like, hmm, what part of masculinity? And I thought of protection. And then, of course, as soon as you said that, I'm like, right, but I'm the most protective person I know. Like, of course I'm right. But also that masculinity and femininity are not isolated to male or female bodies. Right. Like, the idea of masculinity is just like a categorization. But like, that I, as a. As a CIS woman, have a lot of masculine features and if we consider protection to be one like that, I could have that. Even though I would argue, like, you're saying that it's maternal. I mean, I think none of it really serves any of us.

I don't think any of it actually exists, right? And so I think, I think these are things that we sort of subscribe to, right? Because even the traits of you that you claim to be masculine are probably things that are probably good things that are strong, and it's that. But there's nothing to do with masculinity. I can't, Like, Like, I can do nothing about my maleness, right? My maleness, right? My body is a real thing in the world. It's a tangible, concrete thing. My, My mass and matter. I can't do anything about my physical strength that is, Is. You see what I'm saying? All of those things. Yeah, but that's male. But that's maleness. Masculinity is nonsense that no one can, can, can convince me is helpful. And if femininity, if we, if, if we were to argue sort of a bifurcated sort of like, well, if this, then that, right? And somebody says, well, what about somebody? People say to me all the time, what about femininity? Is that real? And my answer is always the same, I don't know. But if it is. But if it is, it hasn't harmed me, right?

But it also can't be real if masculinity is not real, femininity can't be real. Masculinity exists because femininity exists, right? It's the same as race, right? Like, I mean, I think what's really interesting, like, now my brain's really churning, Jason. I think what I'm thinking about right now is like, as you're saying this, like, masculinity doesn't exist. I'm thinking a course about race, a thing that we know doesn't exist in the world. We know that race exists as a construct, so it is impactful, but we know that it doesn't actually exist, like, genetically or whatever the fuck. But I'm thinking about Trump and I'm thinking about all the ways that he successfully has ignited people or terrorized people around these things that don't exist, right? Like, his whole thing is he's like the boogeyman of identity politics, but the parts that don't really exist, right? Like, he's not, like, he's like, his whole shit is like racism, but, like, that's not even real. Like, we've allowed this part person to haunt and incite or excite people around things that. That aren't even real. And that's really scary to me.

I mean, he's a. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, he's a. He's a master imagineer.

Yes, Right.

But. But that's. And that's frightening. But that's what the best storytellers are.

Right? Of course.

Right. He's a. Right. He's a master imagineer. He understands that the key is narrative and imagination. Right. The key is to tap into. Is to create narrative and to tap into the imagination of fearful people, people who are struggling, people so much so that they can't see that he's actually nothing like them, that he has a completely different story. You know who, you know, I was. I always laugh, and this is the polar opposite of Donald Trump, obviously, but I think about Bruce Springsteen all the time when I think about this, because. And I grew up, my dad was. Was a Bruce fan. My little brother is like, he wants to be the Boss so bad. Right? So, like. So I, you know, I came up on all this Bruce stuff, and then when Bruce was on Broadway, he was telling his story. It was brilliant. And he was. He was telling his story. And there's a part in it where he says, you know, I was writing about all of my father's friends in the bar and working in the factories, but I've never had a job. He's never had a job. This is a person who has. He's worn plaid and denim and boots and bandanas. He's put on the costume, he's talked the talk. His skin even looks weathered, as if he's been. As if he's been under a car, right? As if he's been in an auto body shop for 200 years. And he's never. He's literally been in an ivory castle since he was like 23, 24, bowing. The run came out, he was like 25. He's never had a job.

Right.

But he's got an entire population talking about millions of people who believe that he knows what the working man's plight is and has been able to put it in a song because he's lived it. But he hasn't.

But he hasn't.

But he hasn't. Now, on the other side of that, you get a guy like Donald Trump. He hasn't lived it either, but he understands the same melody, the same rhythm, the same. He understands that song.

Right, Right.

And that's scary. So my question to you, right, as we talk about somebody like Trump or somebody like Bruce is what happens if not just me, but a bunch of us figure out ways to talk to tell a new story about what it might mean for a boy to be human first, Right. Before we attach all of the, the masculinity and this and that. And what if he could, if he could just be himself first.

Right, right. I mean, I think, like, to the storytelling part of it. I think Bruce Trump, you, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, all great storytellers. And I think that is the most important part. You have to be able to tell a story. You have to be able to create a narrative. Because as you know, here on this show, we talk a lot about abolition, because that's a journey that I'm currently on. And I think about how sometimes it's really unsatisfying because the answer back to you is like, well, we don't know. You have to imagine a better future. You have to come up with this possibility. And while I think I have learned to be excited by that answer, it is not a story. There is no narrative there. It is not inherently exciting or motivating because it requires you to do the work. And what's great about a story is that someone else does the work for you and you just get to enjoy it. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

You just get to show up, be.

[Jason Reynolds]

Entertained, be, you know, excited, be inspired to believe it.

You get to believe.

You get to believe in something. And so I guess to, to answer your question is like, yes, if you are telling me this story, I am excited about it because you are a good storyteller. But how do we get, how do we get more good storytellers? And how do we get more good stories? Like, how it can't just be Jason Reynolds has to write all these books to save. To save boys. Like, it'll kill you. And I don't want that to happen.

It will. But, but. So, one, Let me say this as I, as I, as I search for my modesty, one, Let me say this. There are and will be others.

Yes, of course, of course. I don't want to. I've talked to many people, you know, there are many other people who are good storytellers. I shouldn't say that.

Who are good storytellers. But what I will say is it, it also, I hope it is not just me because it is not already. But, but, but, but I don't, I also don't underestimate the value of what a person, what one single person could do, right? So like, so like a prime example is all of us talk about Toni Morrison. All of us. All of us talk about Octavia Butler. All of us quote Lucille Clifton. All of us, right? And the truth is, I could probably pull 10. 10 black women writers that have literally shaped the way many of us move through the world, right? Like, that's it.

Right.

For our generation. So. So I won't be able to perhaps change the next 100 years, but I damn sure might be able to change the next 20. I damn sure might be able to shift the generation in the same way we were shifted the first time that we read Beloved or Song of Solomon or whatever it was, or the first time that we read Audre Lorde and now had new rules about how we should attack or protest or think about political systems, or the first time somebody quoted to us or we read Lucille Clifton, Right? You know, won't you celebrate with me? Right? We all know it, right? It, like, lives in our bodies, right? And it's a thing. I mean, look, after the election, you saw the Internet was full of Toni Morrison. Toni Morrison, Toni Morrison everywhere, right? So I think. So for me, in the same way that we're watching Donald Trump incite an entire generation of madness, they very well could be a book or two of my catalog, a book or two of this person's catalog, and this person's catalog, and. And a Kiese Lehman and a Darnell Moore. I mean, we have. But it very well might be that section of people in this particular time that changes perhaps the way men feel about themselves, specifically black men in this particular generation. And if that were to be the case, what a gift. What a responsibility. But what a gift.

Yeah.

And if we do it right, and if we do it right, then there will be a trail of others coming behind us in the same way that we are coming behind a bunch of folks who laid that foundation for us to begin with.

Okay, I'm gonna take a quick break, and then I want to come back to this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters. Selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the stacks, Merch. And it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly. And I. I basically never think about. What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go, and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all, I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon this is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long bonus episodes, access to the Discord community which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com thestacks Find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community.

[Jason Reynolds]

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Okay, we're back. And as you're talking about, you know, sort of, I guess, the legacy, right, of Toni Morrison and Lucille Clifton and Octavia Butler and, you know, whoever it is for you, dear listener, I'm thinking about. I'm going back to this idea of like, what's being taught in the classroom, right? And what books are, you know, quote unquote, canon, whatever. We can have. That conversation is boring to me. But yes. And I'm thinking about. Do you, Jason? Because the other thing about you that I know and we've talked about is that you think about your legacy and your place in, in the literary world. And we've talked about, you know, your chip on your shoulder about being a person who writes for young people and feeling like you kind of don't get the same. I mean, you. Not kind of. That you don't. That people don't treat young adult books or in children's books the same way, though. Congratulations on being a genius.

Whatever. Thank you.

I mean, I already knew it, but I'm glad my cards are caught up. But do you think about your work in relationship to something like the Great Gatsby or in relationship to something like Catcher in the Rye? Because you are taught in classrooms and you have made it to the place where, like, it's not just like the book is in the library, but like your books are taught alongside these canonical texts.

Sometimes some. That's a good question, because I'm trying to be honest. As honest as possible.

I appreciate.

Because my knee jerk reaction is, no, I don't be thinking about them white folk, right? I don't think about those books even though I've read all those books and some of them I love Funny Enough or not Funny Enough. Some of them are good.

Which ones do you love?

I really, really love Duh. Of Mice and Men. And it's weird, right? It's like one of these books. I mean, there are even remnants of that story of the relationship in that story and some of my books. My man Lenny, you know, I don't know if it's because I grew up around somebody like Lenny, who was also named Lenny, that did it for me or what, but that book, it resonated. I also really did love To Kill a Mockingbird, even though I know it's an unpopular opinion now. But the thing is, is that. But the thing is that. And I totally get the critique and also share in that critique. But I try. But I try to. I try to keep it in context and in the time in which it was written. Me personally, I take my hat off the Harper Lee in the same way that I take my hat off to Judy Blume when she wrote iggy's house in 1968, 1969, just after Dr. King was killed. Her first novel is called Iggy's House, and no one has read it, even though I think it's the best thing she ever wrote. And it's all about white flight and about a white family and about a white family who has a. There's a daughter in a white household who goes and introduces herself to the new black family on the block who moves into Iggy's house because Iggy's moved to China and they moved in from Detroit after the King riots. I think it's a masterwork of a book. But Judy. But Judy hates it because she feels like she got it wrong. But for me. But for me, keeping it in the context of which it was written, which was 1968, 1969. It was published, I think, in 70.

Right, right.

I have a certain kind of respect and appreciation for those books. I do. I do. And there are others. I mean, look, I didn't. Look, I read the Great Gatsby probably 10 times, and there are parts of that book that I find intriguing. You know, I read. What's the other one, the short one? Was it this out of Paradise?

I don't know.

It's another F. Scott Fitzgerald book that I also loved when I read it years and years and years ago. I mean, look, there's a lot of. I mean, I think Flannery O'Connor was the most racist Person ever. A Good man is Hard to Find. Was a good collection.

Listen, you know, my problematic favorite book has Gone with the Win.

Exactly.

But this is also the point about storytelling, good storytelling. Listen, you could convince me that anything about antebellum slavery if you are giving me Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler. Okay, I will go with you.

I hate. I hate the Catcher in the Rye, which, by the way, the Catcher in the Rye is another book that, like, spawned a generation of. Of behavioral characteristics. Right. Which is a fascinating thing to think about. That book literally created clones. Right.

It created a whole type of man.

A type of man who. Just look at that book, like the Bible. Right. But what I will say is, though I didn't necessarily like the story, I can't pretend, like, when I was in my 20s to early 20s, and I opened that book up. That I wasn't intrigued by the language, by the way. By the looseness of the language. Right. The way that I was like, huh, that's an interesting thing to do. That's an interesting way. I hadn't read a book specifically by a white person that felt like that. Right. I read books about black people that felt kind of colloquial and loose in that way. But there was something about the language. I was like, that's interesting. This story sucks. This kid is a. I hate this kid. But also. Yeah, but I. But I. Do you know who else I feel that way about? I feel about Sally Rooney.

I've never read it, like, as.

You know, like Intermezzo. I was like, I bought Intermezzo. I've never read any of her work because I know that. Because everybody's like. She's like the person everybody loves to hate for some strange reason. And I don't know what she's done or who she is, you know, I don't.

You think people love to hate her? I think people love to love her. People love her. She's like, such a.

And that's why people love to hate. You see your face for the audience. You can't see Tracy's face. She rolled her eyes.

But the thing about me is also. I know. I know if I'm gonna like something.

Sure, sure, sure.

And I don't like to read things that I think I'm gonna dislike because then I have to talk about it, and then everybody thinks I'm mean. And I don't like people to think I'm mean. So I try to avoid reading books I don't think I'm gonna like because I don't want everyone to think I'm a book bully because everyone's up my ass about it.

I think that's fair. And I think for me, I avoided Sally Rooney because of all the hype. And then I picked up Intermezzo and I read the first couple of pages and I really liked the writing. And I haven't finished the book, but I just really like the writing. Right. And I think for me as a writer, my reading process and the reasons I read are very. Can sometimes be a little different from a casual reader. Just because I'm looking for craft, I'm looking for style. I'm looking for sort of like, what. What is. Like, if I had to sort of. If I had to. To sort of turn this flat. If I had to flatten it all out and look at it as a diagram, what does the storytelling. Like, what's the sequencing of this story? You know, like, I'm thinking about all of those things. So, like, the story might be. That's the reason why I love Ali Smith. I don't know what Ali Smith be talking about, but I just like. I just like the language. I just like to live in the language. And so, yeah, to your point. Yes. Some of them white books. I be. The big point is, do I think of my books up against those? Sorry, that's a long digression. I'm so sorry.

No, it's okay. That was fine.

But it was like a nerd out. But I wanted to say no, but I think sometimes is the honest answer. I think sometimes I think All American Boys has been used in classrooms as either comparative lit with To Kill a Mockingbird or as a replacement to To Kill a Mockingbird. And all over the country. And that has been interesting. And you know, and I think there are, you know, I love the way people talk about long way down, up against Dickens.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. So I. So, so, so, so I never think about it, but when people do it and, and tell me about it, then I sort of think about it.

What do you think about it?

That it just has a place there. And, and there isn't like, like there's not a there there, by the way. Like, there isn't like a. Right, right. But that there's a place for it in the minds of the people who felt like the canon was unshakable. So it's not. So it isn't that I think, like, oh, I get to sort of finally be with F. Scott Fitzgerald. I could care less about standing next to F. Scott Fitzgerald. I'm trying to stand next to Zora Neale Hurston anyway. Right. But it does matter to me that I can sort of rest in the mind of the person who thinks that F. Scott Fitzgerald is a monument and that somebody might erect my monument there sometimes in his. In his stead.

Right.

Because those same people are teaching my children.

Right. Well, because I think that's the thing that I'm so interested in is like, the canon is not interesting to me as far as, like, adults go. It is interesting to me that the canon is really built for people in their English classes as children.

Yeah.

So, like, to me, Dickens is not in my canon because I never was taught Dickens. I was taught F. Scott Fitzgerald. So that is, I was taught Harper Lee. So, like, in my mind, those are the books. Because those are the books that I was told were books before I knew That I could decide what a book was, right? Like, before I started doing this. And I got to say, like, this is my canon, right? Or like that these other books are part of the canon that I didn't even know about. I was never assigned Toni Morrison in high school. I did know about Toni Morrison, but I wasn't enabled be English. Spoiler alert, English teachers now look at me. But like, that. That what is meaning, what is important and interesting and worthy of discussion when it comes to, like, canonical text is that most of that is defined for people at an age before they can define it for themselves. And so that's why I'm so interested in you becoming part of these canons, these classroom canons, because that means that you become part of. Of adult versions of these kids canons, right? That, like, they say, like, I wasn't taught anything contemporary that I can remember in English. We did read, like, Joy Luck Club in a lit and film class I took. And that was sort of contemporary ish, Right? That would have been in, like, 2004. And that was 1990.

Yeah. 20 years old.

It was still old. But like. Like, I can't think of reading any books in the 2000s that came out in the 2000s, but I got sidetracked. But like, that you will be carried forth with these people, these students, these young people now into their future book podcasts, like, into their future bookstagrams, and into their future whatever it is, the books that they will like. I'm reading Charlotte's Web chapter by chapter right now to the minute, because that was a book I read as a kid. They're a little young for it, but they're liking being read aloud. Chapter books. It's like we listen to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory on audio, and they're paying attention. And I'm like, you are? I'm like, what happened? And they're like, oh, he didn't get the ticket. They bought another bar, and there's no ticket. And I'm like, whoa, good job. So, yeah, so that's why I'm interested to know what it's like for you knowing that your books are being taught in these rooms where also these other things are being taught.

It's amazing. I mean, I'm also in that part of my career where I've been around long enough for the kids who started reading my books in fifth and sixth grade to be out of college. And so. And so what happens all the time, like, daily is I'm in the post office and I turn around and there's some lovely woman with a camera out who says, can I show you a picture? And she'll show me a picture of her very small children reading Ghost and As brave as you and so forth and so on. And then she'll swipe to the right, and it'll be her grown son holding the same books and being like, they all have made it to college. They're all readers. They're all this, they are that. And they still come home every summer and get their friends together for a book club. And they still all just read your books. Right. Like that happens. Yeah. And what does that mean? And recently I was in the ups. This happened three weeks ago. I was in the UPS store, and the lady came and said, hey, can I take a picture with you to show my kids? And the lady behind the register said, jason, you come in here all the time. Why is lady taking a picture of you? Right? And she was like. And she said, because he's changed the way thousands and thousands of black boys see themselves in the world now. My children are grown, but they move differently because they had those books when they were young. Now, is this something that I think about when I'm making something? Yes, it is. 100%. 100%.

How. How are you thinking about it? How's it informing the work that you do?

It only informs the work. It doesn't pull from my entertainment elements. It doesn't pull from any of the storytelling at all. It's just about my intention. It's just about knowing that, like. And I'm not trying to teach them anything. It's not that. It's just making sure that these books are made with a particular kind of intention and a particular kind of love and respect for their humanity so that they know somebody in the world knows they're here and knows that they are just people. Right. Just. It's amazing how many. How many black boys don't feel like people. Right, Right. They feel like this other thing. They feel like. They feel like, you know, I met a bunch of black kids who went to this wealthy private school, and they all knew that they were just there for sports. They were aware that they were the sideshow. They were. They were to be carted around when it was time to show prospective parents that they were the diversity, that it was a diverse school. They were fully aware of those things. At 14, 15 years old. My job is to say, you are more than a basketball. You're more than a rodeo.

Right?

That's it.

Right, Right. Okay. This is, like, such a hard shift. There's a few Things in the book that I want to talk about specifically. One is that Neon's mother has an extremely intense bath and shower routine. And that's your bath and shower routine.

I forgot, you know, that. First of all.

I was reading the book in the bathroom. Literally, like, Jason, she doesn't have this. She doesn't have a sweeper.

Yeah. She doesn't have the mini broom.

Yeah. But she showers. Baths. Showers. Which is like, how long, approximately, does that take you?

The whole thing.

Yeah. Shower, bath, shower, sweep. Well, sweep comes later, kids. Let it dry.

Let it dry. Yeah. So for people who don't know what we're talking about, the sweeping. People, like, what does he mean by sweep? So I'm a person who has a really intense, intense bath regimen. I really enjoy the bathtub. I take a bath every day, sometimes twice a day. And I use all of the bath salts and flowers and all kinds. Like, I really spoil myself. I gotta love on me. You know what I mean?

Okay, okay. But.

But in order to clean the bathtub, you gotta let all those flowers and pieces of sandalwood, they all have to dry. And then you have to. Then I sweep them up with a broom. But, yes, all of this takes the bath. The shower, bath, shower, take. I don't know, 45 an hour. That's all. Oh, yeah. Because I'm taking a quick shower.

I'm doing bath for, like, 90 minutes when I bath, it's like a full occasion because I turn the water so hot when I start that I can barely even get in. And I kind of, like, squat and I'm, like, reading my book, squatting. And then I'll, like, get up and, like, stand up and then, like, take my legs out because I want it to stay hot enough for me to read. Because usually when I have to. I mean, I love taking a bath, but usually if I'm reading in the bath, it's because I am on a deadline and I cannot focus anywhere else. So I'm like, phones away, book in the bath. And I'm like, I will stay here for as long as possible. But I'm also such a slow reader that that usually gets me, like, maybe 60 pages, maybe. And so I. I need. I need an extended bath period. But I do not. Shower, bath, shower.

Yeah. Yeah, I got a shower back. First of all, I read in the bath, too. That's where I read as well. Just so you know, that's like my jam. It's the only place I can really focus and concentrate. I have to shower, bath, shower. Just because Because I just feel gross. So, like, I had to like, shower first, then get in the bath clean and then. But. But I've still been sitting in myself and I've got flowers all over me and so I have to shower again.

I hate the flowers. I can't get. I don't like all the shit. I like an Epsom salt. I like a. I like a. I'm okay with a bubble. And I like the like, bath bombs that just. But I don't like when there's like animal, like, there's like produce in it.

Everything has to go in roses.

I'm in the bath. I'm not in the wilderness.

Okay.

I don't need vegetation.

Sometimes you. Sometimes you need to feel exotic. It feels like you're in like some amazing island. Hey, man. To each their own.

I love. I love this for you. I love that we share the bath, but of course, differently. And then the other thing that comes up in the book is this conversation. It's very short, but of course I got my imagination going about Denzel Washington needing to do romance movies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or rom coms.

Yeah. I mean, he really. He really. He has Mississippi Masala.

Okay.

And he has one other. Yeah. And he has one other, like, just true love. I can't remember what it is at the moment, but one other, like, true love story. But Denzel Washington, I'm like, everybody love Denzel Washington. Denzel Washington don't love nobody.

That's true. Do you think that doing a lot, like, do you think that you cannot be like one of the greats without doing it? Like, do you think that that's part of. Yeah, it's got to be part of an actors canon if you want to be top tier.

No. Because first of all, Denzel is. Come on. I can't be like, Denzel's Denzel Washington. I'm never going to disrespect Denzel Washington. That being said. That being said, there is something in a really good love story, specifically in a movie. There's something about the subtlety of acting.

Yeah.

That requires such a. Such a deft hand that I know he's capable of probably better than most that I would love. I just would have loved to have seen him in that space. Like, what does Denzel Washington look like courting a woman?

Right.

But like, in a way that feels true and like, feels honest, but also feels. What does he look like in a quiet film period?

Right. Well, I think, you know, this is sort of to our bigger conversation about like, masculinity. And black boys. But also masculinity. Masculinity, broadly, is. He came up as an actor in a time where you were either like a serious actor or you were like a love story actor. Right. Like Al Pacino, you know, Scent of a Woman is as close as we get. Like Robert De Niro. Like, they're not doing those kinds of movies because, like, that's not what serious men do. And Denzel sort of comes up after that, before there's this transition to, like, the Matthew McConaughey where you can be, like, a serious actor, but also you can do how to Lose a guy in 10 days. Right. Like that. We've had a cultural transition in what is possible for men to do. And Denzel's sort of the end of that. That era because Will Smith comes up, you know, in that next generation, and he does love stories and, like, he does Hitch, and he's more of a comedic actor, and he's sort of pushing up back against that, trying to become a serious actor. But there is a. A shift culturally and, like, what a real actor does versus what, like, casual actors do.

I don't disagree. What about Tom Hanks? He's done everything. What about Tom? He's done everything.

But he is the anomaly, right? Don't you think?

Maybe, but I. I bet if I thought there's probably a few more of them, though. Like, I.

Maybe like Richard Gere, maybe. Richard Gere.

Richard Gere.

I don't think of him as being.

He was never. He was never a movie. Yeah. He was never like, that kind of movie star. Did Brad ever Did Brad and Tom. I mean, Clooney's done it. Clooney's done it.

Clooney.

Clooney's done it. He. He's done Ocean's Eleven and all of those films. Then he's done the one where he's.

Those aren't love stories.

No, but then he's done, like, the one where he's the attendant.

Oh, the. He's not the flight attendant. He's the frequent flyer.

Yeah, the frequent flyer. Yeah. Up in the Air, which is a love story.

But I feel like Denzel's done. Hasn't Denzel done movies like that?

No, he's not.

I'm trying to think of him in, like, any smaller. I guess he never does really small.

He doesn't do quiet films. Neither does Sam. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I would love to see Sam Jackson try his best to basically be in a quiet film where he is trying to love someone. That's it.

Yes. Like, what was that movie with Alec Baldwin and Meryl Streep? Something's Got to Give. Or whatever. We need. We need black. Something's gotta give. But this is my argument.

This is my argument that we never get those movies. We don't get the Notebook. We don't get. I mean, and I could argue. We could argue. The photograph was sort of in that space, Right? That's Issa's joint. That's Issa's joint. Yeah. So, like. But. But, like, we don't really get. And everybody. I know people are gonna. And be like, what about love and basketball and Love Jones? I feel like those movies, though, they were very important to us. And I'm never gonna. I would never. Like, they were very important to us. They, they. They still required the trope of, like, something real bad has to happen. There has to be this moment of, like, travesty, and then we'll. Then we'll find our way back to each other. Right? But there's never just a story where it's like, yeah, this is an exploration of love. That's it.

What about, like, the best man?

He cheated.

I know. I don't remember these movies well because I just remembered, like, the happy ending kind of thing, and that I loved them.

He slept with his man's girl.

Like, that's true.

Not the best. Like, you see, it's always like, yes.

He wasn't the best man. Maybe he was an okay guy.

Like, the best man.

Right, right. That's what I'm saying.

But we never get, like, a film that feels like. I mean, like, where is our. Even. Even. Just you can even think about titles like, where's our When Harry Met Sally.

Sure, sure.

Like, where.

I hate that movie Fair. You know that. I hate that movie Fair.

But. Fair. But where is that film? Like, to think that we don't. First of all, to think that we don't have. I don't know. I have. Same with, like, Annie John. You know, I know we can't talk about old boy anymore. What's his name? Woody. Woody Allen. But.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

But same with, like, Annie John, which I loved the first time I saw because I think Annie Hall. Annie Hall. Annie Hall. I'm thinking Annie John is what? Oh, that's Gwendolyn Brooks. I was like, what is. Andy John. Annie Hall. What's her name? Who wears the suit jackets?

Meg Ryan. Oh, no. Diane Keaton.

Diane Keaton.

Oh, my God, I love her.

That's what I'm saying. And I know we have Diane Keatons. In the black community.

Okay, so do you want to hear a funny story about this? When I was an actor. So one of the things you have to do when you go to acting school is like, you have to learn how to be an actor, which I was terrible at. But you also have to learn how to sell yourself as an actor. And I always. You have to give like comps, like how you do in books, like when you go to an audition or whatever. You know, you are like a casting director. You might tell them, like, I want to have this career. Like, this is where I see myself. And I always use Diane Keaton because I think that I am Diane Keaton esque. But I would always get pushback from my teachers being like, well, you need to have like a black comp too. But I'm like, but I might just be the black Diane King.

What if I just.

I just. That is me. Like, I'm not sexy, but I'm like quirky and I'm funny and I'm like, you know, I'm a little goofy, but also like smart and like, whatever. All of these things that I feel like are so Diane Keaton and my body is weird like her, like all of those things. But we don't have a Diane. Black Diane Keaton.

This is what I'm saying.

Unfortunately, I quit the industry, so you'll never see it.

Like, what is the love. What is like is. Is. When it is IO Debri's turn for a love story, will the other person across from her be a black man?

Right.

And if not, then my question is, why not?

Why not?

Why can't a woman like Iowa debri, who is quirky, she could be our black Diane. Yeah, she's quirky. She's. I actually find her to be hot. You know what I mean? I think she is like, she's got an interesting. She's got. There's like a thing there. And what. And why can't she be across the table from some. Some black man who. And it's just a beautiful love story about their thing.

Right? Write it.

I might. But then the Hollywood's gonna say, okay, but at some point somebody's gotta get shot, right?

Comes in and cheats on her.

Somebody gotta get shot in this movie.

Right, right, right, right. Okay, we're so, of course out of time and you've done this so many times. I don't have to ask you about. About snacks unless you have a new snack that you eat.

No, you know, I know snacks.

I know such. You're the only person who even gets away with that answer. Now if someone's like, I don't eat snacks. I'm like, think harder. Dig a little deeper. Waste of my time. When it comes to snacks, it's just like such a waste. It's so embarrassing for you because you're basically perfect and then there's just this one part of you that is such a failure to me.

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I. I told you my theory. I love snacks. Snacks. That's why I don't have them.

Okay. Just because we need some joy in our life. If you were to go on a just Jason does snacks.

Yeah.

Like you like. Not because I know you're not going to, but if you were gonna give in to your basis snack feelings.

Yeah.

What would you eat? What would be the perfect snack lineup for you?

Barbecue potato chips.

What brand?

Any. Doesn't even matter. It doesn't even matter. I just love whatever that flavor is. I love it. Mesquite. I love it. Regular and mesquite and honey.

Can you tell the difference between regular.

And mesquite and honey? Regular mesquite and honey.

Okay, okay, okay.

I love honey. Sweet Swedish fish. I love Swedish fish.

Oh, I just have my Swedish fish here and then I also have a. A clean bag here.

I love Swedish fish.

I don't own without it. See, we aren't gonna have a bag.

We're actually more alike than you even think.

Well, this is my problem though, is that I don't deprive myself of my greatest joy in life, which is a Swedish fish. Like I could never. Literally, on election night, Mr. Sachs came home with a box of candies. All of my favorites. And I couldn't even eat them. Cause I was so pressed.

I also really like cakes and donuts. Birthday cake is the greatest thing ever invented as far. And wedding cake, like a store bought.

Like a Safeway cake.

Yeah. The absolute best. I love ice cream. Every kind of ice cream. I've had my nights at Jenny's where I have Jenny's deliver all kind of crazy stuff over here. You know, I like, okay, if you.

If you give in and you like have your night at Jenny's the next day. Are you one of those people that like throws it all away or do you just like, can you have it in your.

It doesn't. It doesn't make it through the night. It doesn't make it through. I eat the pint in a single situation. Fitting.

Okay. It's like, this is what I'm saying.

Yeah, like, I can't. I can't regulate very well. So. And those, you know, Trader Joe's makes those peanut butter pretzel bites.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Correct.

I get those from Costco. Correct.

The whole Costco, first of all, shout out to you. Being a Costco mom, that's wild.

Of course. Okay. But I was also a Costco mom before I ever had kids. Costco's one of my favorite places on.

Earth because you need a gallon of mayonnaise. You need a gallon of ketchup.

Because I am like one of those people that loves to organize things. So it's like I need all these things so that I can then open it and then put it in the smaller container. And once we redid the garage, half of the garage is all my books, like my office. Then the other part that you never see on Instagram is the cabinets, which are full of Costco related products and Christmas decorations.

It's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's very intense. But yes, I am a Costco mom. I go, we buy the steaks, I individually wrap them, put them. Because we now have a bonus freezer. Because I'm like one of those people.

You're really one of those people with a deep freezer. That's amazing.

I'm a bonus freezer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That to me is really a sign of, like, becoming a mom. Was like the bonus freezer.

You're ridiculous. But I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy for you.

Living the dream. Okay. At least if I have any. Oh, I guess I just have. I have two more questions. Really?

Okay.

One is for people who like, 24 seconds from now. Are there other things you would recommend to them that are in the same vein?

No.

Great. Okay, that's fair. I'll let you off the hook with that one too. But the last one is, if you could require one person, dead or alive, to read the book, who would you want it to be?

Oh, my father. I think my father would read this book and be so proud because he was. Because he was such an evolved man in so many. In so many ways. He was so thoughtful. He was so affectionate. He was so honest about his. About his fears and shortcomings. He was so confident in the things he was confident in. He made space for people. He loved his wife. He loved my mother. His ex wife as well. I think my father would read this book. I think he would have laughed because he would recognize some of my own antics as a child. I think he would laugh. And I also think think he would feel like he did. All right.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, that's so good. Okay, everybody, you can get 24 seconds from now out in the world, wherever you get your books. Jason, thank you as always for coming here and talking to me. And thank you for writing the books. And also thanks for letting me just trash your snack. Takes any time I want.

It brings me joy anytime, buddy. And I'm glad we got to do this, even though it comes after a tough time. At least. At least we got each other. It was nice to kind of laugh and joke with you about in this moment, at least.

Yeah, I agree. And everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks.

[Tracy Thomas]

All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you again so much to Jason Reynolds for joining the show and a huge thank you to Lisa Moraleta for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27th with Justine K. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stack Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax, Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and check out our website thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.