← The Stacks
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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay y'all, it's the holiday season, which likely means you've got a lot on your plate. And I have something that can help you make your life a little easier. And it isn't what you're thinking. It is Miracle Made Sheets. How can she help in this crazy time of life, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways. 1. They have thermoregulating technology inspired by NASA that helps you to stay cool and comfortable all night long. That means better sleep. 2. The silver infused fabrics prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresher three times longer. That means you're doing less chores, changing and washing your sheets. 3. Less bacteria. That also means clearer, cleaner skin, less acne. And four these sheets make an incredible gift. You're giving the luxury hotel sheet experience without the luxury price tag. So now Miracle Made has helped you have more sleep, less laundry, cleaner skin and checked off a gift to give to that difficult person on your list. Go to try miracle.com the stacks to try Miracle Made sheets today and whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today you can save over 40% and if you use our promo code the Stacks at checkout you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product it is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee, so if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made, go to try miracle.com the stacks and use the code the stacks to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com the stacks to treat yourself thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am thrilled to welcome to the show Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. Ayanna is a marine biologist, policy expert and writer known for her work on climate solutions that center equity and community. Her latest book, what if We Get It? Visions on Climate Futures is an inspiring look at how we can tackle the climate crisis through hope and actionable change. This book is fantastic and it fundamentally changed what I think could be possible not only in climate work, but across many fields as we build a more equitable world. Today, Ayanna and I talk about the importance of details to her work, the power of possibility, and how folks can get involved in the ways that will be most impactful and Meaningful. Don't forget our book club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27th with Justine K. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the stacks pack. It is just $5 a month and you get to be part of the best bookish community that has ever existed in the history of the written word. The is a fact.
- [03:15]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Google it.
- [03:16]
Tracy Thomas
In addition to the yearly perks we always have, like our Discord, our monthly virtual book club meetups, bonus episodes, we also have some really exciting seasonal perks. We are gearing up for the Stackies, which is the Stacks Pack official best book award voted on by the best people in books. We also have my intense Reading Tracker spreadsheet that is available from the 1st of December to the 31st of January. And we have the Mega Challenge, which will also be rolling out in December. So now is the time to get to the Stacks Pack and get your exclusive Perks. Head to patreon.com thestacks and join now. There's another way you can support the show. Stay plugged into what I'm up to, what I'm into, what I'm reading, what I'm watching, my Hot Takes, my enemies. That's by subscribing to my newsletter, unstacked by going to Tracy Thomas substack.com okay, now it's time for my conversation with Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. All right, everybody. I am just beyond thrilled to welcome today's guest. I read her newest book called what if We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures and was immediately smitten. I just fell in love with this book. I fell in love with the idea. I've been raving about it. So to get to bring Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson on the podcast today is my great honor. Welcome to the Stacks.
- [04:46]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Hello. Thank you for having me. What an intro.
- [04:49]
Tracy Thomas
Well, I just. I'm upset. I've been telling people, I'm like, oh, well, I'm unfortunately obsessed with her. And this is just my new personality. You've, like, I'm. I am such an indoor person. Like, I really do not feel like the nature thing, it's just not.
- [05:03]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
You can read things outside.
- [05:04]
Tracy Thomas
I. I know, but I don't even like to. I like to be inside. But I'm telling you now, I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm a Nature girly. Sorry that my only personality is the outdoors and saving the environment.
- [05:15]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Really busy hugging trees. I cannot have coffee with you.
- [05:18]
Tracy Thomas
It changed my whole chemistry, I feel. But before we even get to that, can you just. In 30 seconds or so, which I know is impossible, can you kind of tell folks what. What if we get it Right is about?
- [05:29]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Sure. The subtitle kind of says it all. Visions of Climate Futures. It's largely conversations, 20 transcribed interviews with people who have helped me see the way forward. It's all about solutions and possibilities and the many answers to that big what if we get it right Question. So I talked to our buddy Franklin Leonard about what it would look like to get it right in Hollywood. I talked to farmers and architects and museum curators and policymakers and community organizers. All these different people who are actually in the process of getting it right right now, who can, like, you know, who are doing that bushwhacking for us, I guess, to show us the way to make the path.
- [06:18]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. And I should tell folks, because I read some of the book off the page, but I mostly listened because the audiobook has all, all of the interviews with the people. And I, I, I was saying it's like sort of like you get 20 mini podcasts.
- [06:32]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Totally. The Penguin Random House audio team was like, I'm sorry, what's your plan? I was like, here's all the audio I have recorded in the last year. Please make this into a book.
- [06:43]
Tracy Thomas
But it's so great because I really did feel like I was inside these conversations with you. And I was like, as I'm listening, I'm thinking, like, okay, how could I be a part of that? Like, how does that, how is that exciting to me? How is that confusing to me? What is Community Solar Google Search? Do do? Like, I was, I really felt, like, interactive with it because I felt like I was in this conversation, which I love. So for audiobook people, this gets my, like, super duper gold star of audiobook approval.
- [07:12]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Thank you. I also, like, obsessively micromanaged. Well, as many things as I was allowed near. I'm the art director for the book, and I also, like, approved all of the interstitial music for the audiobook.
- [07:26]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my gosh. I love. Is this, Is this who you are?
- [07:31]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah.
- [07:31]
Tracy Thomas
Are you always this?
- [07:32]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I have, actually. This is, in a way, this is one manifestation of my desire to, like, do a project that has all these angles and, like, really get to make it. Like, what is the full manifestation of a book about climate solutions that brings the energy of Like a girl who grew up in 80s and 90s 90s Brooklyn. What is the book that only I could create? But it's of course, not just a book. It's an audiobook. There's art in it, there's poetry in it. There's the anti apocalypse mixtape inside the back cover, right? There's a website, there's a reading guide, there's. There's a whole, like, voter engagement piece around getting people to vote in line with what makes sense for our planet. And as you ask me, like, is that just my vibe? I mean, the short answer is yes, but the bigger answer actually reminds me of in this small town in the south of France. Bear with me. Matisse designed a chapel when he was sick. The nurse who took care of him was a nun. And after he got better, he was like, how can I help you? And she's like, well, the sisters are looking for a new place for us to worship. And he was like, I'm on it. And he not only designed the architectural plans for the building, he designed the stained glass, he designed the robes for the priests, which are, like, fully Technicolor dream coat, like collages. It's amazing. He designed the candle holders, he designed the pews, he painted the murals, the stations of the Cross inside the chapel, like. And so I was at a very fragile state in my emotional life when I was there, feeling, like, very delicate. And so I was looking in the museum, attached to it at these little dioramas of these different versions of it that he'd had in his head. And I was looking at the robes and I was looking at the furniture and the light that came in through, like, the stained glass windows that turned the light in the confessional pink. And I'm not Catholic at all. And I was crying looking at these dioramas. Like, I don't. I didn't think that was a thing that could happen.
- [09:51]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:52]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
The idea that you could have the luxury and in modern life. Right. It would be such a luxury to have seven years of your life to spend on nothing but making the perfect version of this thing for people that you really care about. And this book has been the closest I've been able to come to. Not I. Micromanaging is like, the negative way to put it, but, like, really sort of like curating and directing all these different aspects of the project, which are all important to making sure it lands with the reader or listener in as close to the way as I hope it would as it can.
- [10:30]
Tracy Thomas
How were you thinking about audience? How Were you thinking about who you are making this for? Because part of curation is not just what you want to put out, but making sure that it's the right thing for the people you envision to be receiving it.
- [10:42]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah, I know that piece of advice. Like, right for one specific person, and then, of course, anyone can read it. And as I was thinking about, like, who was the reader I had in mind, it was a specific person. It's that person doesn't make sense now, so I won't name them. They're like, public Persona has shifted dramatically in the four years since I started this project. But, like, what would it look like for, like, an. Someone who's deeply in love with culture, especially black culture? A young black woman who lives in a city who cares about justice, who cares about the environment, but, like, it's not her thing, but, like, wants to do right by the planet, cares about the future of life on earth. Like, would love to have thriving ecosystems and biodiversity, but, like, she just, like, I don't know.
- [11:35]
Tracy Thomas
Are you talking about me? Are you saying this. The book was written for me? Well, apparently it was. Like, I. Literally, all of these things you're saying are me. Yeah, I must have been that figure. But I.
- [11:45]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
There you go. We hadn't met yet. Now it would be you. And I was writing for someone. I don't know how old you are. I'm 44. So I was writing for someone in there, like, like a decade or so younger than me.
- [11:56]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, I'm 38. So close.
- [11:58]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Okay, close. So, like, who's coming up professionally and trying to find, like, figure out how the dots connect, how they want to use their power and influence as it's growing? Because there aren't books for us on the environment in this way. There are, like, memoirs of environmental and climate justice leaders who are people of color who paved the way in these beautiful ways. But there's not, like, a welcome, we need you. Like, here's the landscape, and here's some hints at where we could go from here.
- [12:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay. You're definitely talking to me. This. This makes sense why this book resonated so much with me, because I feel like, literally, I mean, the blackest climate book. Yeah. Like, this is just like, hey, Tracy, I wrote this for you. And thank you, Ayanna, so much. I actually came to your work a few years ago. It. Because of your piece in Black Futures.
- [12:56]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
That was.
- [12:56]
Tracy Thomas
I. I read that book. I'm such a fan of Jay Wortham and Kimberly, and I flagged a few different.
- [13:05]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
That was an inspiration for me, for sure.
- [13:07]
Tracy Thomas
That book is. Yeah. I mean, another book that just like, blew my socks off. But I flagged a few people who had written in that book as, like, people I would love to have on the show one day. And it was you and Donovan X. Ramsey, who's also been on the show because his piece in there, I was like, I don't know what this person's writing next, but this is it. So it's sort of fun to think about, like, how these things, like, come into our lives. Right. Like, it wasn't like I was like, oh, I'm gonna go out and find a climate book. It was like, oh, this person wrote this other book and I really like that thing they wrote. And like, I wanna check it out, but I wanna talk for a second about, I think, like, the sort of call to action in the book, which is this Venn diagram of, like, what.
- [13:50]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Can I say something about that piece?
- [13:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, of course.
- [13:54]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
So that was the kind of invitation that I got to contribute to Black Futures. I mean, that was a book created in the heart of COVID All the writing deadlines were during then. I had, you know, a million other things going on. Right. I was launching a podcast of my own. I was working on my first anthology. I was a surrogate for Elizabeth Warren's campaign. I was doing, like, all of it at once from my bedroom at my mom's farm, being, like, interrupted by roosters in the background. Very hard to get clean audio on a farm. And writing that piece called what I Know about the Ocean. I mean, the point was about ocean justice. And that was actually the first book I wanted to write. I wanted to write a book. I pitched this to my editor, who was my editor then, Chris Jackson from One World. And I was like, I want to connect the dots between ocean conservation and social justice. I've worked in the Caribbean for almost a decade. I have all these stories to tell. I want to, like, bring people along on this journey of what it would look like to get it right on oceans for coastal communities. And he was like, great. But like, I. I don't think anyone wants to read Ocean justice, the book. And I was like, I. I see that this is not like a mass market appeal kind of thing. This is like a university press, maybe. Yeah, it was sort of academic the way I was approaching it. It was a little bit textbooky. So I didn't write that book. And that book became that book concept, became that article in Black Futures.
- [15:40]
Tracy Thomas
Got it.
- [15:41]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And my, my position, unpopular though it may be, is that most books could actually be articles.
- [15:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, that is a very popular opinion around this podcast.
- [15:52]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
All right. Um, and so that was my chance to. Yeah. To sort of tell that there weren't a lot of anecdotes in there, but it was sort of a lot of my lessons learned there.
- [16:05]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. I want to talk. We're going to come. Come back to the ocean. Cause I want to talk a little bit. I know that's. I know that's your. Your place, and I have some questions about the ocean, but I want to start sort of with this Venn diagram and, you know, sort of like this invitation to folks, and it's got three pieces. One is when people are looking to sort of get involved in. In their place in fighting climate change. Find something that you love, find something you're good at, and find something that is needed and insert yourself in. In that Venn diagram, whatever that looks like for you. And I thought a lot about that, obviously, as I was reading the book and thinking about the different spheres of influence that I have. Like, you know, my kids and I, we started growing our own food in our backyard, just, like, five things, because we live in L. A. And, you know, I was like, oh, I didn't really think of that as, like, being climate justice, but, like, it's also not something I'm good at, but I'm really into it. But I'm like, that's really small. Right? Like, my hope is to have enough lettuce to make a salad for Thanksgiving. Right? Like, it's, like, a very small picture, but. But I was also thinking about, like, what can I do that's bigger? And I started to feel sort of, like, stuck a little bit of, like, well, I don't know what fits. I don't know what fits for me. And I think my guess is that other people who read this book probably feel like they don't know what is even possible. So I'm wondering if you can share some things that you've heard that people are doing. Regular people who aren't necessarily climate people who aren't necessarily people who feel like they can really change the world or know enough about what's going on, like, some of those ideas that you've heard or that you think of.
- [17:42]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah, I mean, I think actually the. Of those three circles, the what are you good at? One seems to be the hardest for people. We're. We're very harsh critics of ourselves often. And so, I mean, the prompt there is, like, your skills, your resources, your networks, like, really thinking Broadly about what you can bring to the table. Because when people think about climate stuff, they're usually thinking about solar panels and electric cars and like policy, right? So they're like, I'm not an engineer, I don't have a bunch of money and I don't write the laws, so how could I possibly help, right? When in reality, as you just said, like, we do all have these spheres of influence. So some of my favorite anecdotes that I've heard are parents who like, join the pta, set up a garden at their kids school, do a green roof or solar panels on the roof, advocate for electric school buses in their district, which is a transition that's slowly happening, which also is of course great for your kids health if they're not breathing in exhaust from school buses. So that's one that I really like. There's also, I mean, I tend to hear the more dramatic stories about how people have implemented this. And so I feel compelled to say, like, this does absolutely does not mean quit your job. It does not mean go start a nonprofit.
- [19:04]
Tracy Thomas
Right?
- [19:05]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Often, like, where we're most influential is within our current roles, right? So can you ask a climate question to every guest? Does that intersect with their work? Are they connecting those dots in their professional or personal lives? Because I feel like I was actually a little bit concerned that the book might have this effect on people. That's like, great. All these interviews with amazing people who are doing big stuff are interesting, but like, I'm not like them. I don't have those particular skills. Right. I'm not the head of Earth Justice.
- [19:39]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [19:40]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Or a Hollywood executive or a climate reporter or a farmer. And so I was worried it would be a little bit too grand in some way unapproachable. But I've heard on this book tour lots of amazing stories. One was this young person who used to listen to my old podcast, how to Save a Planet, where I first talked about this Venn diagram. And they said they were listening to it and they're like, oh, why I can do more, I want to do more. What would that look like? And ended up working at the Environmental Protection Agency. They're a great, like, project manager. We need project managers to make this clean energy transition, let me tell you.
- [20:24]
Tracy Thomas
But.
- [20:24]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And what they did was figure out how to help disadvantaged communities access federal funds for clean energy and climate adaptation. Super practical, absolutely critical. Navigating the federal funding and grant process and matching funds and like, what is available to who, on what grounds and with what paperwork is a pain in the Butt. But we need it. And now they're doing that same thing for indigenous tribes in the Midwest, helping tribes access federal funds for climate adaptation. And so I think we need to, like, when we. When I say, like, what skills can you bring to the table? It can truly be like, I'm a great project manager, I'm a designer, I build good websites, I'm a great event planner. Like, all of that stuff, we actually need to. It's not just technical and political by a long shot.
- [21:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And I think one of the things you get to towards the end of the book is like, join up, join in. You don't have to start a thing. You can just go. You probably shouldn't, probably shouldn't. And I think people, like, I think, you know, when I think back to like summer 2020 and the black Lives Matter movement and people wanting to get involved and there was this push like, well, I'm gonna start like white moms doing. And it was like, well, actually there's all these other moms already doing, like, maybe just call those moms and see what's up. And I think people are starting to finally understand that, like, there are people in place already who could use your help and your resources and your skills. And I just love that you said that like, so explicitly in the book because I do find that people are like, okay, great, I'm gonna like start a non profit about gardening. And it's like, guess what? It exists. Like, people probably down the street from you are doing it already.
- [22:11]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah, I feel like this. So this book isn't in one way like an example of collective wisdom that we need for this moment, but the theme that came through this book, which I wasn't expecting because I interviewed so many different types of people, was community. That we really are all in this together. And it really is. When we think about your neighbors down the street, like you just said, like, those are the first responders in an emergency.
- [22:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [22:36]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Right. When we're dealing with these floods and fires, et cetera, we actually need each other in these, like, very fundamental ways. And so figuring out, like, what your neighborhood association is going to do, are you going to advocate for municipal composting together, for better bike lanes, for more money for public transit, for those electric school buses, for the kids, et cetera? I. There's a way to think about it that's like, what are you doing in your personal life, right at home with your own decisions, how your family spends your money and time, etc. How you can be influential on pushing climate solutions forward in your professional life and then also in your civic life. Like, we think it's. It's so much more than voting, y'all. Like, it's a big array of ways that we can be involved in improving our communities and interacting with our elected representatives to get them doing the right stuff fast. Yeah.
- [23:35]
Tracy Thomas
One of the things that comes up in the book is that it's pretty early, and I can't remember exactly who said it, but people are less willing to take risks in climate change spaces. Like, there's sort of this, like, maybe this fear of, like, maybe the stakes are too high to take the wrong risk or something.
- [23:54]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Do you.
- [23:55]
Tracy Thomas
Do you understand why that is? Does it make sense to you? Do you feel like, like, that approach that is. Is wrong? Do you think being more conservative with climate is the right. The right move, or do you think it's not?
- [24:10]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I mean, it depends what we're talking about when it comes to, like, geoengineering. Like, should we block the sun to cool the planet? Like, we should be careful with that nonsense. Yes. But there's other stuff where we should just try it, and the. The stakes aren't really that high. Like, if you, you know, join the PTA and try to do some stuff in your kid's school and doesn't work, you just try again next year.
- [24:36]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [24:37]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Um, but I. I mean, I think there's this very human fear of failure and, like, hesitancy to try new things. Um, and that's why the join something piece of this is so important. Because, I mean, the cliche of power and numbers. Yes, but, like, it's also that complementary areas of expertise, approaches, personalities. You need your strategist, you need your, like, hype person, you need all of these different. You need your spreadsheet guru.
- [25:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, yes, that's.
- [25:11]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I'm the one on the spreadsheet.
- [25:12]
Tracy Thomas
I love a spreadsheet. How did you decide? Okay, wait. This is a very human question from me.
- [25:19]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I'm ready.
- [25:20]
Tracy Thomas
Do you understand all of the stuff, like, when you're talking to the banking person and they're explaining the banking as you're interviewing them? Are you. Do you feel like you understand what they're talking about? Because so much of this felt, like, over my head in a way. Like, I'm like, I don't even know what a bond is. Like, I mean, I do, but there were so many. Because you're interviewing so many different kinds of people. Like, how were you sort of synthesizing? Does this make sense for me? Is this new information to Me, like, was I already thinking that? Like. Because I know what it's like to interview and there's so much information and you're trying to make sense of it for your audience and yourself and to like, connect the dots so that you can then turn this book into a thing. So how much of the information is new to. Was new to you as you were making this?
- [26:10]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Certainly some. I mean, it's important to say, perhaps for context, that I knew all these people.
- [26:15]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Of course.
- [26:16]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
You knew everybody a bunch of years.
- [26:19]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [26:19]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Before interviewing for the book, a lot, in a lot of situations. I'd collaborated with them before, so I had some familiarity with their work apart from just reading about it.
- [26:28]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [26:29]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
That said. Yeah, there's a lot of technical stuff that actually got cut from the book because I was like, okay, this is like the deep cut on the types of hydrogen for clean energy. Like, I just. No one needs to know about all this. And the interviews were also, you know, an hour or two, up to two hours long. And then they got cut down to like 15 pages. Right. So we're talking about like at least a 50 cut. So a lot, A lot of the jargon and details got cut. I also asked that a lot of clarifying questions in the interviews. These are highly edited on the page. Of course. The audio is the audio. So it's edit. It doesn't match one to one.
- [27:10]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [27:11]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
The written book, I wanted. I didn't want to cut out the complexity of each expert's field. I wanted to make them explain themselves as well as possible and then also know that every single conversation is not for every single reader.
- [27:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [27:32]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And that's okay. Like, if you do not want to talk about, like, investing in clean energy.
- [27:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Startups, like, you could skim that chapter and like, that is totally fine with me. But for some people, they'd be like, oh, I'd never thought about it this way.
- [27:48]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:49]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And so my hope is that you can. Everyone can get something out of every chapter. But also not every chapter is going to be equally as enticing and applicable to everyone. And that's sort of okay. Just to give us all like a little bit of a smorgasbord of.
- [28:07]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [28:07]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
What's out there.
- [28:08]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And how did you decide? I mean, I'm sure you know a lot more people doing this work than the 20 people. Or I guess 20 plus, because some of them are two people in the interview. Yeah. Doing, like, how did you decide which people you wanted to include or which. I guess more also, like, which Fields which. Which banking. Or like, the Seeds was one of my favorite. Oh, my God, the seeds.
- [28:32]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Leah Penniman, I mean, she's a dream, speaks like a poet. It's phenomenal. Yeah. I mean, how food sovereignty can be part of all of this is super interesting. And the, you know, her work in the Black diaspora. How did I decide there was a spreadsheet?
- [28:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we love this.
- [28:57]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Of like, different topics. I wanted to cover different people who could fit the bill for different topics. Part of it was like, are they good at explaining this stuff? Can they welcome people into this in a way? Do they want to explain themselves or are they just not that kind of person? Which is fine. They're just like, I'm doing the work, someone else can explain it. I wanted it to be people who were approaching this in a. A more interesting, maybe even a little surprising way. And I also didn't want to cover stuff that's been really covered a lot. So I didn't actually interview anyone who works on transportation. I feel like we talk about that a lot. I didn't interview someone who works specifically on the clean energy itself. Like, I didn't talk to a solar or wind power engineer or installer. So I kind of cut some stuff that way. But there is other conversations I wish I could have added to the book.
- [30:00]
Tracy Thomas
What would you have added?
- [30:01]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I would. And I started a podcast, a newsletter. What if we get it right? Same title. To keep having these conversations because of this one was on politics. There's a lot on policy here, but there's not really a lot of politics in the book. In particular, like voting and the importance of, like, the role of citizens in pushing for climate solutions. So, yeah, that was the first conversation that I recorded on my book tour was with the founders of Environmental Voter Project and lead locally that supports down ballot climate candidates. I also really wanted to include a conversation on fashion, which has a significant carbon footprint. Fast. Fashion is totally bonkers for many reasons, but one of which is it has a terrible environmental impact on water quality, on greenhouse gas emissions, not to mention workers rights and consumer culture. But there's also, of course, ways to do fashion better. So I wanted to talk to some people who are showing us what that looks like to get it right. Those are the two big ones that I wished I had been able to sneak in before my editor was like, you're done. And it's also very long. Stop.
- [31:23]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters, selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the Stacks merch, and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly, and I basically never think about what I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all, I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon this is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long bonus episodes, access to the Discord community, which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community.
- [33:59]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
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Tracy Thomas
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- [34:18]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
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Tracy Thomas
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- [34:22]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and.
- [34:25]
Tracy Thomas
Balance and required finance agreement is due. Okay, we are back and I want to talk a little bit about money. Ching cha ching. One of the things that comes up throughout the book, many times it comes up in the Hollywood section with Franklin Leonard. It comes up in the sort of like new technologies stuff. It comes up in the investor section is that a lot of this climate justice work, activism work can and would be profitable. That there is money in it to be made by people. And you know, we live in a capitalistic society. And what I found really interesting is that Mike or the question that comes to me is like, then why aren't we doing it if it's good for the environment and somebody could become a billionaire off of it. What's the hold up?
- [35:21]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Well, I mean, people don't like trying new things. Okay, is one. The other is like, I think a lot of these markets are, are new. They're not investable in the same way. A lot of the companies doing interesting stuff and growing clean energy solutions, for example, are. They're not on the stock market. They're startups. Right. So you have to, it's for a different kind of investor. In some ways there's more risk involved. Right. And you need just a different level of technical understanding for those smaller companies. Of course, just like in any sector. It does honestly shock me for some reason that the big banks are still investing so, so much in fossil fuel companies and not just like doing their banking. Like everyone needs a bank account, like actually helping them expand infrastructure to increase extraction and drilling of fossil fuels. One of the things that really surprised me in researching this book was the stat that since 2015, which is when the UN climate agreement, the Paris agreement was signed, that we should all, you know, reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Since then, the four big banks in America, JPMorgan Chase, Citibank, Wells Fargo, bank of America, have provided one and a half trillion dollars to fossil fuel companies. And they're, you know, not as Profitable as they used to be, they got a lot of competition. There are other ways for these banks to make money. They represent a small part of their overall portfolio. And so it actually wouldn't be that big a deal for the banks to divest from fossil fuels. If I were the head of JP Morgan Chase or if I were Jamie Dimon, I would be like this is actually a no brainer. It's great PR and I'm not really losing any money. I could just move that part of my portfolio investments to something else. So that's been really troubling that we don't have that kind of leadership. But of course that requires public pressure. So the conversation in this book with Bill McKibben about the fossil fuel divestment movement, which has, you know, they're now like 1600 institutions have divested over $40 trillion, which sounds like a lot, but there's so much money in the world there's a lot more to be done. But I think just to bring this down to like what we can do as individuals, one of the things that I find really promising is that when it comes to our household decisions it can feel like they're really small. Like the lettuce you are growing for your Thanksgiving dinner is not going to save the planet. It could be very delicious.
- [38:24]
Tracy Thomas
I hope it's at least delicious.
- [38:25]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Sweetest family activity with your kiddos.
- [38:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [38:29]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
But the thing that we can do as households that makes the biggest difference actually is making sure we are not investing in fossil fuel corporations, that we are not supporting the further build out in the wrong direction away from the clean energy future that we need There there's this analysis that's like if you have $50,000 saved for your retirement and that money is not in a clean fund, a fossil free fund, then your money is doing more harm than any amount of good that you could be doing. Riding your bike, composting my lettuce, planting your lettuce, etc. Because that money is being lent back out right in some portion of it to fossil fuel companies. And that was actually a real eye opener for me because as much as people are like, I don't know where to start, I'm like this will take you one day of research and paperwork and then you're done. And I remember feeling so relieved when I did that to literally not be investing in the problem anymore. That's two websites that I would recommend people check out. One is bank for good.org and the other is greenportfolio.com so you can they have, like, a list of all sorts of different options that. For. Yeah. For better places to keep your money.
- [39:53]
Tracy Thomas
And we'll link to that and everything else in the show notes so folks can find it super easily. Okay. You know, we talk about hope at the end of the book. You talk about hope as, like, this thing that's, like, it's great. If you have it, that's great. But, like, you don't need it. You don't have to be hopeful. You don't have to. Optional hope and joy. Separate them in your mind. You can experience joy without being hopeful. You can experience hope without being joyful. I guess I have one sort of downer question. I mean, I have more than one, but this is the one I'm most interested in. Am I. Am I wrong to be worried that the thing that needs to be changed about the approach to the climate or the things that need to be changed feels so fundamental to American identity, like white supremacy, individualism, capitalism, obsession with ownership, that even though we have all the tools, which so many of your people.
- [40:56]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Even say, barbecues and big trucks.
- [40:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Just like all of these things, it just feels like I'm reading it and I'm like, yes, I. I can do that. I would. I would be a part of this. Like, I'm down with this. We have the tools. I don't even know what the tools are, but we have them. Like, but also, it's gonna take divesting from this idea that being individual is the greatest thing in the world. And, like, that's what freaks me out.
- [41:23]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah, well, I mean, I think. Is being individual the greatest thing in the world?
- [41:29]
Tracy Thomas
No, no, I don't think so. But I'm saying, like, that's American culture.
- [41:32]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I know. I mean, I think I say it that way because I feel like once we start to name these barriers, we're like, right, okay, maybe that is a little bit ridiculous, you know, and that. That's my hope. Anyway, I was actually surprised how many people mentioned private property as a problem. Just the way that we have ownership in America. Certainly our consumer culture is problematic. And I worry, actually, I think you may be getting at this as well. This psychology of it. Our identities are wrapped up in a certain way of doing things. One of the things that really blew my mind was a study a bunch of years ago now that men didn't want to carry reusable bags because it was too feminine. And I was like, oh, we are screwed.
- [42:32]
Tracy Thomas
Men are not okay.
- [42:35]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Like, if a reusable bag is threatening your man manhood, a That's on you. And B, how are we ever going to get anywhere? Right.
- [42:43]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [42:44]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And it's the same thing with the cars we choose. It's the same thing with our diets. So there really has to be, underlying all of this, a cultural shift. And so for people who are listening, who have any sort of cultural influence, who are helping to shape what is the status quo, what is aspirational, we need to change what that looks like. It is not, you know, an enormous closet with more outfits than any one person could ever wear. It is not a truck that gets nine miles to the gallon.
- [43:19]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [43:19]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Right. There are other ways to live that are just as delightful and fulfilling, if not more. And I feel like my concern is that we are so fragile and many of us unhealthy emotionally, psychologically, that we're attempting to fill those gaps of being needed or wanted or feeling safe and secure with these lifestyle choices that make no sense. Like the videos that I see on TikTok of people with their disposable everything.
- [43:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And the refilling videos and the, like, 50 Stanley Cups in different colors. I'm like, do you guys remember that we invented reusable cups so we could just have one and keep reusable?
- [44:09]
Tracy Thomas
Have one reusable cup. Yeah. Yeah.
- [44:13]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
So I do very much worry that the cultural barrier is the big one. And that's why I've designed the book, to try to reach people in a cultural context. Why I've designed the book tour to be a series of cultural moments, you know, with some. Some celebrities with different people in every city, really trying to, like, meet the moment and the vibe that we need and say, like, yes, this is serious. Like, we can take climate change seriously, but we should not be taking ourselves seriously. Like, let that shit go.
- [44:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. I. What's so fun. Funny to me is, like, I think what is easy for me to think of for myself is, like, these little small things that I do in the household, because I feel like that's what we've been told matters. Right. It's like you have to recycle. And. And when I read the book, you know, I turned to my husband and I was like, why have I never thought of reduce and reuse.
- [45:16]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
There you go.
- [45:17]
Tracy Thomas
And. And I. And I have in some ways, Right. Like, I carry my. My one reusable water bottle. Not made of plastic, though. It has a little plastic on the. The top. But, you know, it needs a top, it needs a lid.
- [45:30]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
It's the single use thing. That's the single use.
- [45:32]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Exactly. But like, I feel like I get so stuck in the what can I do as like the head of my household. And I think that, I think that it's easy to forget and maybe it's by design that we're not thinking of these solutions like bigger or some of us. Me, not you, obviously you are. But like as part of a bigger community or like a bigger sphere of influence. This is really helpful to hear you say some of that.
- [46:03]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
It is so American, right?
- [46:06]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [46:07]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
To get caught up in what's happening in your personal life and in your home and that becomes so all consuming that we don't have the time or energy to be a larger part of the societal changes that are needed. If you do a slightly less good job at recycling, but that means you are out in your community advocating for better building codes, for example, something extremely dorky but necessary. Yeah, that's great. I don't care. You know, I feel like there's a limited amount of energy we each have and if we're all obsessing over the small stuff at home, we're not going to get there. I mean, do that stuff. But as you sort of were getting at, I think this is a major failing of the environmental movement that it's pushed us towards this not only individual but generic list of things that we should do. We should vote, we should protest, we should donate, we should spread the word, we should lower our carbon footprint. But it's all. None of that is like, join with your neighbors and like, figure out your role in the broader systems changes that we need to see. I get very worried about that, especially given that California just sued Exxon because recycling is basically a lie.
- [47:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [47:28]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Like those three arrows with the number on the bottom of your plastic containers, those don't actually mean it's recyclable. That is just a number signifying what type of plastic it is. Which is the most infuriating greenwashing example I could think of. And now they're getting sued for like lying to all of us that we could just keep buying all this stuff and just put it in the bin and it would be fine. Like, best case scenario, you can recycle a piece of plastic like twice before it degrades beyond usability. Whereas, like aluminum cans, paper, like, those are the things we should be using and recycling. So I feel like we don't even have a basic knowledge of. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Because fossil fuel companies are the ones making plastics. Like plastic is made from fossil fuels. And as we switch to clean energy and EVs they're just building more plastic factories.
- [48:20]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Right. I mean, this is like, this is why people, myself feel so, like, it's so frustrating. It just feels like, frustrating. It's like I'm like buying these like reusable bags for my kids lunches and Exxon is like, fudge you. We've been lying to you for 20 years. And it's like, but what about my little reusable bag? I know. So like, the scope just feels unimaginable. It's like, it's like when you think about a regular, like working class person who makes like however much money a year and then you think of Elon Musk, you're just like, these two things, how are these on the same spectrum? Right? Like, it's like they have seeds and you have billions of dollars of fudgeing over the planet. Like, and we're supposed to be working together on this. Like, yeah, just. It's so, it's so hard.
- [49:10]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
So things that I, that motivate me to keep going are really the community level stuff.
- [49:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Like, there's so much good that is happening. I mean, it was absolutely horrifying to see the hurricanes come through the south. Right. Just a few weeks ago. And it was so heartwarming to see how neighbors stepped up and helped each other. And I feel like in this moment where climate change is causing these types of extreme weather that are. We're not used to in these places. Right. You're not supposed to have hurricanes that far inland.
- [49:51]
Tracy Thomas
No.
- [49:52]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Like, what does that mean for how we need to show up and take care of each other and plan for the future? And I don't know, I feel like this, there's a very fundamental piece of getting it right on climate change that's just like, what does it mean to be a good human?
- [50:11]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [50:12]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
What does it mean to be a good neighbor? What does it mean to do your part? What does it mean to not take more than your share? What does it mean to share?
- [50:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [50:22]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
One of the things that I like dream about is each community having its own repair shop. I feel like we throw away so many things. We're like, I don't know how to fix this. I don't know. There's like, not an easy place to get replacement parts. Forget it. Like, take your toaster down to the community repair shop, your blender, your roller skates, whatever, and like get a new gasket or washer or like whatever you need. Right. Have someone fix that little motor and the same with one. Another thing I love Is like tool sharing. Like, I wish ever every neighborhood had a spreadsheet that's like, here's all the stuff in my garage. We actually don't all need our own versions of all of these tools.
- [51:05]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [51:05]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
No one's using them 24 7.
- [51:08]
Tracy Thomas
Like, no one's even using them.
- [51:10]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Can I borrow your sledgehammer for an hour instead of buying one?
- [51:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, of course. You know, that's such a great idea. I mean, that's. That's something that someone could do in their totally doable, like, knock on the door and be like, I'm putting together this spreadsheet. Here's the Google link. Like your tools. If you're a spreadsheet or person, I want to ask you a little bit about your process. First and foremost, how do you like to write? How many hours a day, how often? Music or not. Hazard snacks and beverages. Tell me about it.
- [51:43]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Now we're really getting into it.
- [51:45]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [51:47]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I learned about myself probably a decade ago that I have to just. Right when inspiration strikes, which is very frustrating because it's super inconvenient. I'm like. And apparently it's now I got to go by.
- [52:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [52:03]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And drop everything and just write it down. Because I. The thoughts just come and go out of my head. And it's also those not just inspiration strikes, but when motivation strikes, you know? And as a person who doesn't have her own children, who, like, has a lot of flexibility, I don't have a 9 to 5 job. I can take advantage of that. Much more so than other people, which is very lucky and also sort of by design. So always beverages, usually like a tea and a water.
- [52:36]
Tracy Thomas
What kind of tea?
- [52:38]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I have a whole tea drawer. It really depends.
- [52:41]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [52:42]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Dandelion root tea was very high on the list for a while there. Something a little bit like. Like savory and intense music. I need complete silence when I'm editing.
- [52:54]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [52:54]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I can write with a little music, but I can't edit with. I need just absolutely to be like, in zero stimulation. Just. And I edit by hand.
- [53:07]
Tracy Thomas
So you print out pages.
- [53:08]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Print it out. Yeah. I have to see the words on the page in relation to each other. And I. It's sort of insane. Like. So, yes, I did all these interviews, but I also wrote a bunch of essays of my own in the book. I probably edited each chapter five to ten times by hand.
- [53:28]
Tracy Thomas
Wow.
- [53:29]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And then transcribed those edits. And to the listeners who are like, you're wasting trees. Like, I also printed tens of thousands of copies of this book. So.
- [53:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. At Some point, we got it. Paper is recyclable.
- [53:42]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I. I didn't even recycle it. I kept it all for my archive, which is not something that I'm, like, really obsessed with. But I was actually going back to look at previous drafts in hard copy as I was writing. But for the interviews, I physically cut and pasted taped pieces together because I have, like, 40 pages. This has got to become, like, 14. What does that look like? What are the different chunks that I need? How do they, like, physically fit together as I move them around, like, spread them all out on my living room floor and, like, remix?
- [54:16]
Tracy Thomas
Have you ever posted those, Any of those on social media?
- [54:19]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
There's some photos of that.
- [54:21]
Tracy Thomas
I want to see that, so I.
- [54:22]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Will share those with you. But, yeah, I mean, I am an obsessive editor.
- [54:28]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [54:29]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I write slowly and quickly, but the editing is relentless. Like, you really have to rip it out of my hands because I'm always like, is there a more clear way to say this? Is there a more compelling or elegant way to say this? Is there more concise way to say this? And so, yeah, up until the very end, I was just, like, cutting, cutting, cutting. It's a long book because it's transcribed interviews. But, yeah, I really. I don't feel like there's a lot that's extra actually in there.
- [55:04]
Tracy Thomas
No, I mean, I. I was like, I could do more. I could. I could have spent. I could spend, like, days and days and days on this book. I just. I think. I think it's perfect. This is, like, such a weird question, but I love your voice so much. Do you like your voice or do you hate the sound of your voice like every other person on the face of the earth?
- [55:26]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I was raised as a jazz singer, okay. And so I'm very much tuned in to not just the tone of the voice, but sort of the melody of how we speak. And I am a person who watches the game tapes. So when I was hosting a podcast, I was the only person on our team of producers and reporters who would listen to it after it was aired to try to experience it as our listeners were experiencing it and say, oh, that didn't really land because of this intonation. This pause this. That sounds sort of annoying and, like, nasally. Like, I really do critique that stuff because I want people to not be distracted.
- [56:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [56:10]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
By my voice. And also, this is a weird detail to share, but I was so concerned with not having a high pitched, girly, unserious voice. I, like, love a low voice. Love a low voice.
- [56:28]
Tracy Thomas
Me too.
- [56:31]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Across genders. I'm like, give me that.
- [56:33]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [56:34]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
You know, rich, deep tone. And I have a very low singing voice, but when I'm speaking, it's not very low. And I tried to make my voice lower when I was podcasting and I actually damaged my voice.
- [56:49]
Tracy Thomas
Wow.
- [56:50]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And I was in voice therapy for like a year to regain my normal speaking voice. I had like nodes growing on my vocal cords. I had like all this. I store all my tension in my throat. So I was like, trying so hard.
- [57:04]
Tracy Thomas
So you learned your lesson?
- [57:05]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I learned my lesson.
- [57:06]
Tracy Thomas
Perfect. Just the way you are.
- [57:08]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
It is the way it is. But I'm obsessive about editing likes out of audio, so I don't know who edits your audio, but I hope they will delete some of those.
- [57:17]
Tracy Thomas
I. I say like so much. People hate it. I know. It's just, I'm a valley girl, I'm from California. That's just who I am. I'm a liker. And, you know, I think a lot about this because I think like, like, I think about the ways that women are trivialized for our voices and, and are made. Made to be made to seem unimportant because we say like or we have a high pitched voice or whatever it is. And I, I refute this. I refute this idea that I should have to change how I speak because it makes you think that I'm stupid when I'm not stupid. You should just be able to listen to people. I mean, there's this great book called Word Slut. Have you heard of this?
- [58:01]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
No. I want to hear about it.
- [58:03]
Tracy Thomas
It's all about language and the way. And feminism and the ways that women's voices are critiqued. Whether it's vocal fry or high pitched or saying like. And she talks about the linguistics of the word like and what women are actually doing with the word like. And she talks about, like, what you're doing, where you're saying to me how a lot of men hate this. This. They hate this idea. They think that you're interrupting. They think, whatever. But it's actually a way for women to show that they're paying attention. And it's like this whole cultural study of the way that women use language. And she even talks about words, how words about men are always positive, whereas like, like sir is always positive. But madam can also be a sex worker, right? Or a princess and a prince. A princess can be a total. She can be spoiled, she can be that. But a prince is just a princess or a king and a queen. Right. And so she gets into this whole thing about language. And that really changed how I. Because I used to be very insecure about saying. Like, I used to be very insecure about talking like a Valley Girl. And people still sometimes say things to me about it, but I feel more confident in it because I feel like it doesn't make me any less smart. And if that's. If that's your problem with me, maybe that's your problem and not my problem. Yeah. You know, that's my chesty rant about it.
- [59:20]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
But I think there's something about really having been brought up in jazz music that I have a very particular relationship with my voice, which is not to critique other people's, but to say. And I think it's also because of the things that I'm talking about.
- [59:39]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [59:40]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Like, I don't want to annoy people when I'm talking about climate solutions. I'm desperately trying to welcome them in. So there's a little bit of that strategic. Like, if I can sound soothing or melodic or, you know, approachable or cool or whatever, then maybe more people will roll up their sleeves and.
- [60:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so funny because I think about this too, with this show, because books are often so people have such a hard time having an entry point because it feels so stiff. People are so smart. It's so pretentious. And so one of the things that I always try to do is welcome people in by saying, you know, I'm just as stupid as you. Like, you know, this is a safe space to talk about books, whether you have a master's degree in fiction or whether you're me and you just like to read. And so it's similar to sort of what you're talking about.
- [60:30]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Stupid or you stupid?
- [60:32]
Tracy Thomas
No. But I think sometimes people feel like they're not enough. They're not. Like so many people. Like, I'm not a reader, and I'm like, you read 100 books a year. What do you mean? You're not read? Or you read ten books a year? Four books a year. Yeah. So I think I do think about, you know, how I speak sort of similarly to you, but also different because I think I'm inviting people in to a different space in a different way. And I think for you, it's interesting to think about how you think of your voice as a tool to get your message across and to invite people in.
- [61:09]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
It's all of it. It's your voice, it's your. Like, I've thought a lot about what I wear.
- [61:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [61:17]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
For. And honestly, speaking to teenagers is the most intimidating. Of course. Right. It's like, how do I get these kids to think I'm cool and want.
- [61:25]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right, right.
- [61:25]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
In climate jobs. Yeah. I mean, I think about all of these things, about how I am a messenger. And I really do see my role in the climate movement as one of welcomers. And so what would it mean to make more people feel welcome, to help more people find their roles? And I don't think it's superficial at all to think about the way we talk, the way we present ourselves, the way we, we write, the way we do a book tour, the way we design our books, the way we create websites and other things around our books as part of signaling to people that they are welcome, that this is for them.
- [62:09]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Okay. I just have two more questions for you.
- [62:12]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
All right.
- [62:12]
Tracy Thomas
One is, what is the least sexy, nerdiest, esoteric thing you have learned on this journey with this book?
- [62:22]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah. So this is a question I ask everyone I interview about their least sexy, nerdiest, most esoteric climate solution. Got some very good answers. The journey of making this book, I mean, I don't know if I guess I relearned it. It's okay to sweat the small stuff. The details really matter and they add up. I don't regret any minute spent on a detail of this project.
- [62:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I love that. Okay. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [62:56]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Ooh, would they? The question is, would they read it and then would it influence them or would they just turn the pages?
- [63:05]
Tracy Thomas
You know what? I'm going to let you pick whichever one of those is more exciting to you.
- [63:10]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I mean, I cringe to say this, but I feel like American politics is such a shit show. Like, if I could get Donald Trump or Elon Musk to not just turn the pages, but actually read and absorb this book about the problems, about the possibilities, about who's getting screwed, about all the solutions we have. That would be the game changer because these are people who have so much power and influence over, like, half this country.
- [63:47]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [63:49]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Who are absolutely not leading us down the path to climate solutions and a safe future. But could. I mean, one of the things that really stands out to me is it's Iowa and Texas that have the most wind energy in the United States. You know, it's not because there's a bunch of hippies that move there. It's because it makes economic sense and they're good jobs. And the battery manufacturing for EVs is in the south and the Midwest. Right. All of these places that desperately need climate solutions that are being underserved by conservative climate science. Denying politicians, like, cut that out. Like, there are honest conversations to be had about which policies would be most effective or cost effective or just, etc. But we're not even having those conversations. We're having a, like, is science real state of the debate still? Which is like, not a debate. It's just like you're rejecting reality.
- [64:50]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [64:50]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And I find that to be so terrifying about our country as we don't actually have agreement on a basic set of facts anymore.
- [65:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
- [65:02]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And so, yeah, I would love. And. And even more deeply frustrating is a lot of the politicians are just pretending to be climate deniers. They know full well that it's real, but it's become politicized and makes it impossible to get reelected in some places if you just acknowledge the truth of what we're all experiencing.
- [65:21]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [65:21]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
So, yeah, that's. That would be great. But you know, I don't. That would know that Trump reads books, so that's a long shot.
- [65:29]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, no, that would be great. That is what we need. Everyone at home, you can get your copy of what if we get it right? Visions of Climate Futures, wherever you get your books. You could also get it from the library if you wanted to reuse. You could request it at your library. You should see it, make sure it's there, make sure it's at your local library. And you can get the audiobook review. Listen to your audiobooks. And Ayanna, thank you so much first for writing this book, but also for coming on the show.
- [65:57]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
This was such a pleasure, an honor and a pleasure. And your review that you posted on Instagram is my favorite review of the book. It is so glorious and generous and welcoming and, like, specific enough that I know you actually read the whole thing.
- [66:13]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I read the whole thing. I did. I read it. I listened to it every single moment. I just. I just love this book. I don't, I don't even. I didn't think I was going to.
- [66:22]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
And so I wrote it for you.
- [66:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it turns out. But like, you know, sometimes you go into a book, you're like, oh, I'm curious about this thing. But, like, it's probably, you know, whatever, I probably won't care. And it was when I got to the, like, the logging farming guy, like, very early, I was in the airport and I was like, oh, this is a. This book is for me. Like, I was like, like, I was liking it, but it was that interview. And then I think that one closely goes into seeds. I think seeds is next. And I was like, oh, okay. I'm actually exactly where I'm supposed to be with this book. Like, this was. This book entered my life for a reason. Like, I'm so glad I'm here. And I just, like, was so obsessed.
- [67:03]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Wait to see what you do next. Next. What is in the heart of your climate.
- [67:08]
Tracy Thomas
I will. I'm gonna keep you. I'm also gonna keep you posted on the lettuce.
- [67:12]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
I need. I need constant lettuce updates. Set up a live cam.
- [67:15]
Tracy Thomas
We also, we grew some carrots from seed. Okay. They are sprouting from seed by myself.
- [67:22]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Harvesting carrots is one of my favorite things in the world. It feels like pure magic to pull a carrot out of the soil. It's just like. I'm sorry, what? There's this delicious bright orange thing. That's okay. That's okay.
- [67:36]
Tracy Thomas
Some of the seeds didn't work. But anyways, I'm so excited about this. I will keep you posted. I. It's you. I think about you in this book, like so far, every day since I finished it. I think about it. I'm like, wow, what would that look like? What is this? Like, you know, and even like small, like talking to my kids about. Just like, you know, I know that's again, really small, really little. But like having new ways of thinking about or like, of how to communicate things to them, what they're doing and how it's connected to other people.
- [68:01]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Especially for young people who are. Who know that we're doing it wrong on climate right now, who are worried about their futures. The question is how can we show them that we have the solutions, that they can be part of them. And actually my next book project, I think is going to be a children's book or series mostly to help parents talk about these issues with their kids and help kids think about ways that they can. Yeah.
- [68:27]
Tracy Thomas
Be a part of twin almost 5 year olds. And so they will be right fast.
- [68:32]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
Yeah.
- [68:32]
Tracy Thomas
Right for them. Your f. Your adult book was for me. Your kid books will be for the mini stuff. Perfect.
- [68:37]
Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson
You got it.
- [68:38]
Tracy Thomas
Well, thank you so much. And everyone get the book and everyone else will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you you so much for listening. And thank you again to Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson for joining the show. And I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Carla Bruce Eddings and Janisa Shrestha for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27th with Justine K. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram Threads and Tik Tok, and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Dwight with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic Designer is Robin McRite and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Sax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.