Ep. 347 Luster by Raven Leilani — The Stacks Book Club (Justine Kay) - The Stacks

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: The Stacks Episode 347 – Luster by Raven Leilani

Release Date: November 27, 2024
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Justine K

Introduction

In Episode 347 of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes co-host and friend Justine K, known for her work on the Two Black Girls One Rose podcast, to discuss the monthly book club pick: Luster by Raven Leilani. This episode delves deep into the novel's intricate narrative, exploring themes of race, power dynamics, and personal turmoil through the lens of its complex characters.

Book Overview

Luster is Raven Leilani's striking debut novel that portrays the tumultuous life of Edie, a young Black woman navigating her existence in New York City. Edie becomes entangled in an unconventional relationship with Eric, a much older white man who is married and in an open relationship with his wife, Rebecca. The novel unpacks a series of divisive and provocative situations, examining bad decisions, racial implications, and the shifting power dynamics between the characters.

Character Analysis

Edie

Edie is portrayed as a self-absorbed yet empathetic protagonist whose actions often border on reckless. Her decision to enter into a relationship with Eric sets the stage for the novel's exploration of power and dependency. Justine K commends Edie's complexity, stating, "There’s so much to dissect about this character and so much to forgive about this character. But if you think about it long enough, you could forgive her for every mistake she made in this book."

Eric

Eric is depicted as a controlling figure who maintains dominance in his relationship with Edie. His superficial charm masks deeper insecurities, particularly regarding his sterility and his role as a father to a Black daughter. Traci notes Eric's flawed humanity, mentioning, "He thinks he’s so cool because he likes disco" and highlighting his struggle with addiction and personal failures.

Rebecca

Rebecca, Eric's wife, emerges as one of the most intriguing characters. Described as both generous and manipulative, Rebecca oscillates between acts of kindness and blatant cruelty. Justine K expresses her fascination with Rebecca, saying, "Unfortunately, Rebecca is my favorite character in the book." The dynamic between Rebecca and Edie forms a central tension in the narrative, culminating in dramatic confrontations that amplify the novel's themes.

Aquila

Aquila, Eric and Rebecca's adopted daughter, serves as a symbol of innocence and the collateral impact of Edie's and Rebecca's tumultuous relationship. Her presence adds depth to the power struggles and emotional complexities within the household.

Themes Discussed

Power Dynamics and Race

A significant portion of the discussion centers on how Luster navigates power dynamics within interracial relationships. Traci remarks, "The book brought up questions about race and power and the performance of those things about pettiness." The interplay between Edie, Eric, and Rebecca illustrates the nuanced ways race influences their interactions and societal perceptions.

Unreliable Narration

The hosts debate Edie's reliability as a narrator. While Traci felt largely she was reliable, Justine points out subtle inconsistencies that hint at Edie's paranoia and potential unreliability: "She is so paranoid. Is she an unreliable narrator?" This aspect adds a layer of psychological depth to the narrative, inviting readers to question the authenticity of Edie's perspective.

Mental Health and Self-Destruction

Edie's journey is marked by self-destructive behaviors and a quest for validation. Justine observes, "She really is like a figment of an imagination or an idea that she thinks she's living." This introspection into Edie's psyche underscores the novel's exploration of mental health and personal identity.

Plot Discussion

The conversation navigates through key plot points, including Edie's entanglement with Eric, her eventual confrontation with Rebecca, and the escalating tension that leads to violence and personal revelations. Notable moments include:

Edie's Entry into the Relationship: Edie's initial involvement with Eric is marked by a series of "bad decisions" and power struggles, setting the foundation for the novel's conflict.
The Turning Point: A pivotal scene where Eric physically assaults Edie ("[44:52] Tracy Thomas: He hits her twice, hard as fuck.") marks a significant shift in their relationship dynamics.
Confrontation with Rebecca: The dramatic encounter between Edie and Rebecca outside Eric's house symbolizes the culmination of their power struggles.
Eric's Decline: The narrative arc sees Eric spiraling into substance abuse, culminating in his disappearance and the dissolution of his relationship with both Edie and Rebecca.

Favorite Moments and Quotes

Both hosts share their favorite parts of the book, highlighting the novel's sharp writing and character depth. Justine praises the author's respect for the reader's intelligence, stating, "[16:02] Justine K: Yes. Another reason why I'm sure that we both love this book. It's only 227 pages."

Traci fondly recalls the metaphorical use of objects, such as the dog symbolizing underlying tensions: "[62:09] Justine K: I love how she did the relaxer by accident. And Edie then goes immediately into her. I did a relaxer by accident story."

Title Meaning: "Luster"

The hosts engage in a thoughtful discussion on the book's title, "Luster." Initially mistaking it for "lust," they eventually appreciate its true meaning: "a glow of reflected light" and "a superficial attractiveness or appearance of excellence." Traci reflects, "[71:34] Justine K: Yeah. I don't know. It could be a lot of different people's hair. And it also seems to be not as manipulated. The curls look very, very natural."

Conclusion

Traci and Justine conclude by expressing their appreciation for Luster and its multifaceted exploration of complex themes. While acknowledging some plot elements felt contrived, they agree that the novel's depth and character development make it a compelling read. Traci summarizes, "I think it’s a satire. It is sort of a domestic thriller. It is, you know, sort of like a psychological thriller... It leaves you sort of feeling a little bit, like, disheveled in a way."

They also announce the December book club pick, Tacky by Rax King, an essay collection celebrating pop culture and guilty pleasures.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

Justine K on Edie’s Complexity: “[07:09] Justine K: I thought it was very well written... but there's so much to dissect about this character and so much to forgive about this character.”
Traci on Unreliable Narration: “[12:22] Justine K: Oh, that's a tough question... like, I did think, I did think.”
Discussion on Power Dynamics: “[13:33] Justine K: It fits into such a type of human being that I'm so familiar with...”
Traci Reflecting on Title Meaning: “[71:21] Justine K: Oh. Yeah. I had no idea... It definitely has that sort of shiny.”

Final Thoughts

Luster by Raven Leilani emerges as a thought-provoking novel that challenges readers to navigate the intricate web of interpersonal relationships, race, and self-identity. Through Traci and Justine's engaging discussion, listeners gain valuable insights into the book's narrative structure, character motivations, and underlying themes, making this episode a must-listen for book enthusiasts eager to explore contemporary literary works.

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Transcript653 lines

[00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay y'all, it's the holiday season, which likely means you've got a lot on your plate. And I have something that can help you make your life a little easier. And it isn't what you're thinking. It is Miracle Made Sheets. How can she help in this crazy time of life, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways. 1. They have thermoregulating technology inspired by NASA that helps you to stay cool and comfortable all night long. That means better sleep. 2. The silver infused fabrics prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresher three times longer. That means you're doing less chores, changing and washing your sheets. 3. Less bacteria. That also means clearer, cleaner skin, less acne. And four these sheets make an incredible gift you're giving the luxury hotel sheet experience without the luxury price tag. So now Miracle Made has helped you have more sleep, less laundry, cleaner skin and checked off a gift to give to that difficult person on your list. Go to try miracle.com the stacks to try Miracle Made sheets today and whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today you can save over 40% and if you use our promo code the stacks at checkout you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product it is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee so if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made, go to try miracle.com the stacks and use the code the stacks to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com the stacks to treat yourself. Thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I am your host Tracy Thomas and today is the Stacks Book Club Day. We are joined once again by co host of the two Black Girls One Rose podcast and friend of this pod, Justine K, to discuss our pick Luster by Raven Leilani Luster is a striking debut novel that dives into the messy and complicated life of Edie, a young black woman trying to figure things out in New York City who decides it's a good idea for her to enter into a relationship with a married man who is in an open relationship with his wife. The book brings us all sorts of juicy and divisive situations, bad decisions, power dynamics, racial implications and more. We talk about it all today with Justine and there are spoilers on this episode. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our December book club pick will be. And a quick reminder. Everything we talk about on today's episode, like books, pop culture, everything. You can find that in the links in the show notes. If you love the show and you want more of it inside access, you can head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack, which is our bookish community and slash. Or you can sign up for my newsletter, which is at Tracy Thomas substack.com Both of these places support the work that I do. Both of these places give you exciting inside access to the show perks, like voting on our Stacky Awards, our monthly virtual book club, things like bonus episodes. Also, each platform offers different perks, so you can check that out by going to patreon.com the stacks and going to Tracy Thomas substack.com and I should say now you are able to gift a subscription to either Substack or Patreon to anyone in your life who loves books, who doesn't know they need this community. Give them a gift. Let them try it out. And if you're not able to right now, I get it. You can do one thing that is super impactful and helps the show. That is completely free. Leave the show a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. And be sure to tell a friend about it. I know that seems so basic, but when you tell a friend, I listen to this podcast and I love it, they're more likely to listen to it than anything else. That's the number one way people listen to shows. How did you find the show? Someone probably told you so. Yes, please leave a review, tell a friend, show the show some love. I love you guys. Thank you. Okay, enough. That was too romantic. Now it's time for my conversation with Justine K About Luster by Raven Leilani. All right, everybody, it's a Stacks Book Club day. I'm so excited. Front of the Pod podcast host herself, Justine K. Is back. Justine, welcome back.
[04:41]
Justine K
Oh, my gosh. Thanks for having me. I hope I sound okay. I'm worried you're really smart. I'm worried I'm gonna sound dumb.
[04:48]
Tracy Thomas
You're gonna sound great. You're not dumb. You're very smart. Thanks, Justine. I didn't say this, but I said it in the real intro. But just in case you skipped through that because you're a smart podcast listener who doesn't listen to intros. Justine is the co host of the two Black Girls One Rose podcast where they talk about reality tv. And if you haven't heard her talk about that, you go back to her first episode from the beginning of the month and list. Today we are talking about Luster by Raven Leilani. There will be spoilers, people. Just so you know, this book is the story of edie, a black 20 something living in New York City, who enters into a relationship with a man, a much older man named Eric, who is white and married and has a child and is an O in an open relationship relationship. Edie and Eric have a thing. That's going fine. It's going good.
[05:50]
Justine K
It's fun times. Yeah.
[05:52]
Tracy Thomas
But then Edie does some stupid things.
[05:54]
Justine K
Yeah.
[05:54]
Tracy Thomas
She pushes and. And the wife gets involved. Her name is Rebecca. Rebecca gets involved.
[05:59]
Justine K
Becky. Becky gets involved.
[06:01]
Tracy Thomas
Becky with the good hair. Becky is there. And the book, you know, the book takes off from there. So that's sort of the premise of Luster. We always start here for a book club. What did you think generally of this book?
[06:16]
Justine K
Yeah. I would like to thank you for bringing me on for this episode. I have been reading cheesy romance novels for so long, Tracy, that I am not used to this sort of writing anymore. I was, so it was such a treat to read this kind of writing. Yeah. And overall, I thought it was a really, really good book. I would give an 8 1/2 out of 10. I thought it was very well written. And the story, while a lot. There was a lot of detail. Right. Which felt like it was almost like a lot of responsibility for the reader. There was a lot to remember, I thought. Overall, there's so much to dissect about this character and so much to forgive about this character. But if you think about it long enough, you could forgive her for every mistake she made in this book. And not a whole lot of unlikable characters are written that way.
[07:10]
Tracy Thomas
I love this. You're so forgiving. Wow. You are, though sometimes on the show they'll be like a person who behaves so badly. And you're like, I could see myself in her. And I'm like, she's literally a murderer and like a child molester. But I'm glad that you feel great about it. Okay. I like that. I like that. So I. I like this book. A lot of people going into the book were like, this is so. Like, this is such a. Like, I hated this book. It's so divisive. Like, someone told me this was an even more wild choice for me to pick than Colleen Hoover. And I was like, no, that's unhinged. To say this is, like, feels right in my wheelhouse.
[07:49]
Justine K
Yeah.
[07:50]
Tracy Thomas
I love a novel with an unlikable, quote, unquote, unhinged female main character. If a woman is making bad choices, I want to read about it. This book is totally in my wheelhouse. I had a great time with it. I really, really liked it. I love the questions it brought up about race and power and sort of the performance of those things about pettiness.
[08:20]
Justine K
Oof.
[08:22]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, I don't think it's a great book.
[08:24]
Justine K
Yeah.
[08:25]
Tracy Thomas
Right. But it was a very good book. It is a debut. I will read whatever Raven Leilani writes next. For sure.
[08:31]
Justine K
Yeah.
[08:32]
Tracy Thomas
And I really like the storytelling. Like, there's parts in the book where she's, like, going off about random, and then all of a sudden, she's like. And then I looked over and Aquila's face down underneath the police officer, and I was like, did I miss? Like, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, she keeps that energy of Edie, which is, like, in first person. So we're in Edie's mind. She keeps Edie's correct energy the entire time. And so overall, this was, like, a big yes for me.
[09:00]
Justine K
Yeah. I agree.
[09:02]
Tracy Thomas
I don't. I. I get. I sort of agree with you that, like, everything bad Edie does, you could sort of forgive, but I actually don't feel like. I feel like she made stupid and reckless choices, but she doesn't do anything that even needs forgiving or is harmful in my opinion. Or am I missing something? Am I forgetting something?
[09:20]
Justine K
No. I mean, stuff. Sneaking into your boyfriend who's married's house. Not great.
[09:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. That's not great. The door was unlocked, so she didn't break in.
[09:31]
Justine K
Is that. Yeah, technically. Yeah. Right.
[09:33]
Tracy Thomas
Technically. I mean, I guess my point being is, like, she didn't do anything, like, legally wrong.
[09:40]
Justine K
That's what I told my fiance. He was like, when does this happen? I was like, this happens all the time. This is the whole premise of Fatal Attraction. This, like, the girlfriend sneaking into the house, going through the wife's clothes happens.
[09:52]
Tracy Thomas
Bunny boiler.
[09:53]
Justine K
Yeah, it's.
[09:54]
Tracy Thomas
It is a. It's a type of woman. A bunny boiler. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think that is probably her most egregious.
[10:06]
Justine K
Action. Right?
[10:07]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
[10:07]
Justine K
She has really specific feelings about women that I would love to chat about and really specific feelings about men, and I think those are forgivable and maybe even, like, fucking the whole office. Okay. Can I curse on you?
[10:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[10:22]
Justine K
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Fudgeing the whole Office was a little unhinged and wild.
[10:25]
Tracy Thomas
Sure.
[10:26]
Justine K
You know, again.
[10:27]
Tracy Thomas
Again. I guess. Yeah. I mean, bad decisions, huh? But ultimately, she's just hurting herself in all of these positions, like, she's not hurting others. You know what I mean? I'm like, yes, I forgive you, but, Edie, you have to forgive yourself.
[10:43]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah, maybe.
[10:45]
Tracy Thomas
I love to learn to love your are enough as you are. Okay, well, yeah, let's start with her opinions about women.
[10:54]
Justine K
Okay. By the end of chapter six, I realized that she has this really great amount of empathy for men. Men's excuses are always extremely emotional. Eric is feeling like this. That's why he's an alcoholic. Eric has a black daughter, so that's why he is so far removed from Akilah in their relationship. But he looks at her lovingly, like a dad, so it's okay. But with Rebecca, Rebecca's like. Or Rebecca specifically. But also any other woman in her life, which is definitely due to her relationship with her mother, are always plotting against her.
[11:31]
Tracy Thomas
The other girl, black girl at work, Aria.
[11:34]
Justine K
Yep, Yep. The two people who fired her, Rebecca. Even the daughter at some Aquila Keela. At some moments, she's very sensitive around her because she doesn't want her to, like, detonate.
[11:49]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, interesting.
[11:50]
Justine K
You know.
[11:51]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I hadn't. I hadn't picked up on that exactly. Like, as articulate as you said it. Like, I didn't. But yes, of course, you're right. Also, we don't. Yeah. I'm trying to think about how she talks about Mark, the guy from the office. Because. Because he was plot. Remember? She thought he was plotting against her.
[12:09]
Justine K
Yes, he did. Yes, she did. She did.
[12:11]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, she's pretty paranoid.
[12:13]
Justine K
Yeah, she is.
[12:15]
Tracy Thomas
She is pretty paranoid. She's. Did you feel like she was an unreliable narrator? Oh.
[12:23]
Justine K
Oh, that's a tough question. Because of how this author wrote. As you said earlier, she wrote her. So true to voice.
[12:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[12:29]
Justine K
Like, I kind of always expected this. I was like, oh, she's taking a pregnancy test. That tracks.
[12:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I. I thought she was pretty reliable, even though I didn't think she was very likable. But, like, there were not many times where I was. Wait, what'd she say? Like, I don't believe that. There was a few moments. There's one moment where she talks about. This is like, such a nitpick. But she talks about, like, she's hooking up with Eric and she's like, oh, he slid his hand under my shirt. But she had already told us she was wearing a dress. And I Was like, wait a second. And I know that's like, not a big deal, but I was like, a shirt. It's not a dress.
[13:03]
Justine K
Yeah, yeah, I think it is.
[13:06]
Tracy Thomas
But that was like one of the few times it was very early that I was like, oh, is this an unreliable person? I do think this idea that she's like paranoid around women, though, is pretty accurate, though. To her credit, all the women in the book are out to get her.
[13:25]
Justine K
They are. They are.
[13:27]
Tracy Thomas
Arya does take her job and calls her mediocre.
[13:30]
Justine K
I know.
[13:32]
Tracy Thomas
I love that scene.
[13:34]
Justine K
I love it too.
[13:35]
Tracy Thomas
That was so good.
[13:36]
Justine K
It's such a function of white supremacy. Right. It's such a crabs in the barrel moment that she has. Or she's like, I can't be associated with you, even though I fully took you, even though we're fully interchangeable to these white people.
[13:49]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
[13:49]
Justine K
Which.
[13:49]
Tracy Thomas
And before that. Before that, what I thought was so interesting is that Edie does pick up on that, but she picks up on it differently. She thinks that Aria is out to get her job and that she doesn't like her because she was too angry too quickly in front of her. That was her understanding of what happen. And Ari is like, would have loved to be friends with you, but you suck at your job. And I can't be associated with your mediocrity because I'm trying to work my way up and you're in my way.
[14:21]
Justine K
Yep.
[14:21]
Tracy Thomas
And I just loved that. Like, Edie's right, but she's not right about the why behind the situation. And I just found that, like, really fascinating as, like a inter intra blackness conversation.
[14:38]
Justine K
Yeah, yeah. And the. The two black girls who are allowed on the floor.
[14:44]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
[14:45]
Justine K
Which I've had that same experience at a publishing company which is very reminiscent and nostalgic for me to read about. There was just me and one other black girl on my floor at a publishing company. Was my first job out of College. I was 23. Yeah.
[14:59]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, is this. Is this your memoir?
[15:02]
Justine K
No, my life is thankfully not this interesting. Thank God.
[15:07]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, wait, here's the conversation between the two of them. I just want to read it. So this is Edie. Edie says, please, I was a liability to you. I say, holding the smoke in the back of my throat. Well, yes. She lights another cigarette, smiles. But not like you think. And then Edie says, you're going to tell me again what I think. And Aria says, you think because you slack and express no impulse control that you're like black power sticking it to the white man or whatever. But you're just exactly what they expect. Like, I understand wanting to resist their demands, but they can be mediocre. We can't. Mediocre? I can't be associated with it. Like, there is actually a brief window where they don't know to what extent you're black. And you have to go. You have to get in there. You have to get in the room. And if I have to, I will shuck and jive until the room I'm in is at the top.
[16:00]
Justine K
Ooh, that shucking jive.
[16:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[16:02]
Justine K
Chill spine.
[16:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, it is a spirit. Very specific type of black person. And I'm assuming Aria is also young.
[16:11]
Justine K
Yeah.
[16:12]
Tracy Thomas
And I think that's also like, an extremely young mindset perspective of black people who maybe have, like, been in predominantly white spaces.
[16:22]
Justine K
Yeah.
[16:23]
Tracy Thomas
Like publishing. But I just found that, and I feel like what's so great about the book is, like, Raven Leilani does all of that in, what, half a page? A quarter of a page?
[16:34]
Justine K
Yes. Another reason why I'm sure that we both love this book. It's only 227 pages.
[16:41]
Tracy Thomas
227. And it's perfect.
[16:43]
Justine K
Oh, thank you, Raven. Oh, my God. I'm starting to venture into the, like, Kennedy Ryan sphere. I'm trying.
[16:49]
Tracy Thomas
Those are longer.
[16:50]
Justine K
Oh, my God. 400 pages. Why?
[16:53]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, so this is.
[16:55]
Justine K
This was.
[16:56]
Tracy Thomas
I like it. I like a tight. Any. Anything under 250. Because, honestly, I was like, I would have done more of this book.
[17:03]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[17:03]
Tracy Thomas
Like, there are scenes I could have. I would have loved to have. I. You know, I. Anyone who's listening to this, who listens to the show a lot, will know that I love a murder.
[17:17]
Justine K
Oh.
[17:18]
Tracy Thomas
And when that gun first showed up on page 125, I thought.
[17:22]
Justine K
Yeah, I thought I said, Oop, this.
[17:24]
Tracy Thomas
Is Chekhov's guess gun. You know, there's, like, this thing where it's, like. With the gun appears. That's, like, how you. And I was like, we're getting a murder. We did get a dog killing. Yeah, but I thought we were getting a murder. And then it comes up again when she's like, can you put this gun in my purse? And I was like, reminder, we're getting a murder.
[17:42]
Justine K
Yep.
[17:43]
Tracy Thomas
And so I was sort of hoping we were getting a murder. And then when the dog was killed, I was like, oh, juicy. And then she. She was practicing to see if she could get away with it, and now she's gonna kill Edie.
[17:52]
Justine K
Yeah, but. Yeah, I thought the same thing.
[17:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. But I loved. I loved the gun. Reveal. I just loved the way she, like, revealed little things to us in, like, a sentence here or a moment there. And I was like, this is so, like, she really. I felt like Raven Leilani thought that her readers were intelligent.
[18:10]
Justine K
Oh, yeah. Definitely a lot of respect for the reader here.
[18:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about. So the first half of the book is really, like, Edie at her job. Fucking Eric. Hooking up.
[18:26]
Justine K
Weird roommate.
[18:27]
Tracy Thomas
Weird, weird roommate Eric. Weird sex stuff.
[18:31]
Justine K
Weird, weird. Calling back to childhood. Every last one of these kinks.
[18:37]
Tracy Thomas
Very weird.
[18:38]
Justine K
Yeah.
[18:38]
Tracy Thomas
Won't have sex with her for a.
[18:40]
Justine K
Really long, long time.
[18:42]
Tracy Thomas
I'm assuming that's because he feels weird about it because he's been married for a long time and like. Yeah, he still feels guilty about the whole thing and maybe, like, doesn't want to go when she brings him to her filthy.
[18:54]
Justine K
Oh, my God, her nasty ass apartment. You know why? I thought he was holding out, too. They had their black adopted daughter for two years. Right. This is probably the first black woman he's been around in a sexual manner ever in his life. And he's, like, 50, so he's, like, kind of treading lightly. Doesn't really know what to do. There's a lot of emphasis on Rebecca's body versus Edie's body.
[19:19]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
[19:20]
Justine K
And him exploring those two bodies. I think he was very nervous.
[19:24]
Tracy Thomas
But we don't get. We actually don't get a great sense of Edie's body.
[19:29]
Justine K
No, Just the bra scene with her. Nikila shopping for bras. She said that she has big boobs. She said. She talked about her boobs, I think twice during that scene. And there was one more. Yeah, but that was.
[19:40]
Tracy Thomas
We know. We know that she's bigger than Rebecca, but not that much bigger because she does fit in the dress. But the dress is tight, so they're like the same size. Maybe. Maybe one size bigger. But. But that is there this idea of, like, these different bodies. I mean, and the way that. The way that Edie describes Rebecca's body lets us know that it is different than hers because she's, like, so fascinated by the shape of the thing.
[20:09]
Justine K
Yeah, yeah. And her narrowness and her angular body. All that stuff.
[20:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. And her very small boobs. Boobs.
[20:16]
Justine K
Yeah.
[20:16]
Tracy Thomas
She talks about her small boobs a lot.
[20:18]
Justine K
Yep.
[20:19]
Tracy Thomas
Something I noticed because I, too, have small boobs, and I was like, you know what, Edie? Leave us alone, Cheskas, Was that, you know, you have big boobs.
[20:29]
Justine K
You wouldn't have.
[20:30]
Tracy Thomas
But that was the thing people used to say they used to call us Flat Cheskas. Flat Cheskas instead of Francesca. Flat Cheska.
[20:38]
Justine K
Oh, my God. Come on, guys.
[20:41]
Tracy Thomas
Elementary school. Nailing it. What? I guess middle school, because I don't.
[20:46]
Justine K
Yeah.
[20:46]
Tracy Thomas
I think most kids are flat chest in elementary school.
[20:50]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Oh, my God.
[20:53]
Tracy Thomas
We love it. We love this. For me, not complaining. Very happy with.
[20:57]
Justine K
Yeah.
[20:57]
Tracy Thomas
Flat chess, because. Sorry, what We. Oh, we're talking about Eric. Yes.
[21:02]
Justine K
Okay, so.
[21:03]
Tracy Thomas
So it takes a while for them to, like, have sex.
[21:06]
Justine K
Yeah.
[21:07]
Tracy Thomas
Can't do it till he takes her back to his literal home. Which is rule number five.
[21:13]
Justine K
Yes. That Rebecca wrote down in pen.
[21:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[21:17]
Justine K
Paper. Which I thought was so shame.
[21:19]
Tracy Thomas
She's nuts.
[21:20]
Justine K
She's nuts. It's gonna be an iPhone. Shared note.
[21:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, but she knew. She probably wrote it down because she knew this dude is not. And he was gonna break them.
[21:30]
Justine K
He.
[21:31]
Tracy Thomas
They promptly broke every rule. The rules were no unprotected sex, even though he's quote, unquote sterile. 2. If she. If. If Rebecca calls, he has to go past it.
[21:43]
Justine K
Yep.
[21:44]
Tracy Thomas
3. Rebecca can change the rules at any time.
[21:47]
Justine K
Yep. Love that rule. I love how it's three also and not number one.
[21:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Yes. She's like, oh, this other thing. Rule number four is. This is a new rule. It was a late edition. He can only see her on the.
[22:00]
Justine K
Week, the weekend and the week. Yeah, I have.
[22:03]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Only on the weekends.
[22:05]
Justine K
Yeah.
[22:05]
Tracy Thomas
And then rule five is she's not allowed in the house.
[22:08]
Justine K
In the house. Yeah.
[22:11]
Tracy Thomas
They break all those rules.
[22:12]
Justine K
Every last one of them.
[22:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I love it. I love it. I mean, you knew they were gonna. I mean, I think she sets it up by saying, like, here's how we broke all the rules.
[22:20]
Justine K
Yeah. Yes.
[22:21]
Tracy Thomas
Which was great, too, but. Okay. So the power dynamic in this book between these characters, I mean, I think that's something we'll probably spend a lot of time on because there's so much in here between the power dynamic. But from the beginning, Eric is in control of this situation between himself and Edie.
[22:41]
Justine K
Yep.
[22:42]
Tracy Thomas
He doesn't share very much information about her. About Rebecca.
[22:46]
Justine K
Yeah.
[22:47]
Tracy Thomas
He picks where they go. He orders the food, the drinks, everything. He decides when they're going to have sex or not.
[22:54]
Justine K
Yep.
[22:55]
Tracy Thomas
He. He. After he goes to her room, he recognizes how poor she is.
[23:00]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[23:01]
Tracy Thomas
And he basically is just, like, feeding her.
[23:03]
Justine K
Yeah. Right.
[23:05]
Tracy Thomas
Like taking, like. It's basically, he's exchanging food for sex, even if they're not necessarily having sex right away.
[23:12]
Justine K
Yeah.
[23:14]
Tracy Thomas
I just don't know any I mean, it sounds so up to me now as like a 38 year old, but I'm just thinking, like, are there 23 year old young women in New York City who are saying no to this?
[23:29]
Justine K
Oh, my God. I wouldn't.
[23:32]
Tracy Thomas
I don't think I would. Married.
[23:34]
Justine K
Married. I would.
[23:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, but open relationship.
[23:37]
Justine K
Open, but you've got rules from the wife.
[23:39]
Tracy Thomas
So, you know, the wife at least is like consenting to the thing.
[23:42]
Justine K
Yeah.
[23:42]
Tracy Thomas
And it means that you don't have to be tied down with this old man.
[23:46]
Justine K
That's true. That's true. The only rule that would give me pause is that, number three, that she can change the rules at any time. That tells me she's not comfortable with this at all.
[23:56]
Tracy Thomas
Sure. But you're 23.
[23:57]
Justine K
Yeah, right, right. So I actually don't know that. Yeah, yeah.
[24:02]
Tracy Thomas
So like, at 23, that rule just says, like, to me, like, she just like, wants to be in. She wants to have control over the situation. And like. But again, I'm 23 and I'm getting to go out to nice restaurants and have like nice drinks and nice food. And I know this guy's married, so it's not like I'm like getting my hopes up. And like, there's even a part where he's like, I'll leave my wife for you. And she's sort of like, God.
[24:26]
Justine K
And she's like. She's like, please don't do that.
[24:28]
Tracy Thomas
Don't do like. So I do feel like she has a good. I feel like she has a good grasp of the relationship with Eric.
[24:37]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[24:39]
Tracy Thomas
I don't think the Rebecca part, she's fully got a good grasp.
[24:45]
Justine K
No. Like the marriage part of this, you know, not at all. But she is. She can't wield her power until he said, I love you by accident. And then she was like, oh, okay, I can. I gotta pull this car over.
[24:59]
Tracy Thomas
She does say earlier that him having been off the market for so long makes him vulnerable and wonders if it's unethical for her to exploit that. And I think that's really interesting because to me, she has so little power in this situation. Even before Rebecca is part of it.
[25:19]
Justine K
Isn't she always part of it?
[25:20]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, even before she knows Rebecca, Rebecca enters the relationship.
[25:25]
Justine K
Yeah.
[25:25]
Tracy Thomas
You know what I mean? Like, but just between the two of them. That's true.
[25:28]
Justine K
True.
[25:28]
Tracy Thomas
Interesting that she thinks like, oh, I'm gonna exploit him, because I just didn't. I mean, maybe I. I guess maybe she is exploiting him for these nice dinners.
[25:38]
Justine K
Yeah. For Nice dinners, for companionship, for validation that he's attractive. I think that's why a lot of men go out with, like, younger women, to make sure they, like, still got it. Especially ones that aren't, like, four mole sugar daddies. They want a lot of validation in their manhood and their masculinity when they're dealing with younger women. I think, too, even the way that Raven portrays Rebecca's name and how regular it is and how she cannot find this woman, she can't find her online, and the frustration of her not being able to find her online.
[26:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, really?
[26:17]
Justine K
That's when Edie realizes that her power is diminishing. She's like, wait, I don't have a handle on the situation at all.
[26:22]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Interesting, interesting. I. I don't think that Edie ever realizes her power. I don't really. She never acknowledges that to us.
[26:33]
Justine K
She never acknowledges, like, she never says.
[26:36]
Tracy Thomas
Like, this thing is out of control.
[26:38]
Justine K
Oh, yeah.
[26:39]
Tracy Thomas
No, like, she never really has a moment of, like, reflection on, like, she's just living her life.
[26:48]
Justine K
Yep. Day by day.
[26:50]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And I think, like, I think what's really, really smart about this book is that. And I. And I. I've heard from some people, this is one of the complaints with the book, is that the book starts in one place and sort of ends up in a totally different place. And, like, the relationship with Eric sort of just, like, fizzles out and disappears. But I thought that was, like, really true to life, because I can think of. I mean, just like, when I think of friends, like, there's people that I meet for one reason, and then I go to a party with them, and then I meet someone else there, and I'm like, oh, you're actually my friend. And I don't ever text to that other person anymore.
[27:19]
Justine K
Or, like.
[27:20]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I. I sort of didn't. I didn't mind that because it felt. It felt like Rebecca sort of took control of the situation and, like, rule three, the wife can change the rules. Yeah, she very much does.
[27:33]
Justine K
And she does. Yeah. All the time. And informally changes the rules pretty.
[27:37]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
[27:38]
Justine K
Frequently.
[27:38]
Tracy Thomas
Right. And, like, pretty drastically. I mean, the first time. So let's get to the scene where Rebecca and Edie first interact, because that is the best scene in the book.
[27:52]
Justine K
You think?
[27:53]
Tracy Thomas
I think. I mean that. In the party.
[27:56]
Justine K
Yeah, the party.
[27:57]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I think of that whole thing as one scene because she never leaves the house. So in my head, that's all one scene. But after Edie goes to the house with Eric and they have sex, Finally. And Eric says he loves her after she calls him daddy.
[28:13]
Justine K
Oh, yikes.
[28:18]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my God, it's such good writing. It's so smart. Oh, my God, it's so good. Edie. Unhinged, Edie decides to go back to the house. Like, just. Cause. Is she going for a reason? No, she's just going to me.
[28:34]
Justine K
She just filled in the woman who goes to go through the clothes of the wife.
[28:39]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. But there's no. She's not going like, oh, I left my shoe, or something.
[28:43]
Justine K
Like, she's just going, no, she left her dignity, girl. She looks. She's looking for it.
[28:51]
Tracy Thomas
So she goes to the house. The door is conveniently open. No one's home, she thinks. She goes inside, straight to the bedroom, straight to the closet. Paws all over Rebecca's clothes. Just a little sifting through.
[29:06]
Justine K
Yep.
[29:07]
Tracy Thomas
Dun, dun, dun. She turns around. Guess who's there. Rebecca. They stare at each other for a second.
[29:15]
Justine K
Yep.
[29:16]
Tracy Thomas
Then Edie runs out of the house.
[29:19]
Justine K
Yeah.
[29:20]
Tracy Thomas
Rebecca chases her out of the house.
[29:24]
Justine K
Yeah.
[29:24]
Tracy Thomas
And falls down outside in public in front of her neighbors on the cul de sac.
[29:31]
Justine K
Oh, my God, the drama.
[29:34]
Tracy Thomas
Mortifying.
[29:35]
Justine K
Yeah, that's. That's crazy.
[29:39]
Tracy Thomas
I would argue that outside of this one moment in the entire book, Rebecca is in control of the power. But this first initial interaction, just embarrassing as.
[29:56]
Justine K
It's so embarrassing. Even Rebecca thinking about Rebecca's obsession with fitness and obsession with her body, to think that she could not get her when she got outside that house. Oh, so metaphorical, too, of her marriage, too. Her marriage is run wild, girl.
[30:11]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Get a divorce, sweetheart. Get a divorce. Get a divorce. Edie turns back around because now she feels bad. Now she engages.
[30:24]
Justine K
Yeah.
[30:25]
Tracy Thomas
Biggest mistake of the book.
[30:26]
Justine K
I know.
[30:28]
Tracy Thomas
Keep running. Get your ass to New Jersey transit, girl.
[30:31]
Justine K
Yep.
[30:31]
Tracy Thomas
Get on a train.
[30:33]
Justine K
Yep.
[30:33]
Tracy Thomas
Get yourself to the pen station.
[30:35]
Justine K
Yep.
[30:38]
Tracy Thomas
Rebecca's like, I just. I just. I'm not gonna hurt you. I just wanted to get a better.
[30:42]
Justine K
Look at you and why he would choose you.
[30:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. There's some subtext, huh?
[30:51]
Justine K
She's like, oh, this is what he really wants. Okay. Yep.
[30:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. If you are Rebecca, but you're you, but you're Rebecca and you're in an open relationship, Right. And your partner chooses someone who physically looks totally different from you.
[31:08]
Justine K
Yeah.
[31:09]
Tracy Thomas
Different race, different body type. Younger or much older. What are you thinking?
[31:16]
Justine K
That I have to leave the marriage. I gotta go. I don't even think this about, like, celebrity crushes. I get, like, annoyed if it's.
[31:26]
Tracy Thomas
What do you mean?
[31:27]
Justine K
The opposite. Like, I can List all of my sister wives of my fiance. You know what I mean? His, like, hall passes and everything.
[31:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[31:35]
Justine K
They're all black girls of big asses, like, and that is also me, so it's fine, huh? Yeah.
[31:41]
Tracy Thomas
So you're let. You'd be more upset if they were different from you than if they were the same.
[31:46]
Justine K
For sure. Yeah.
[31:48]
Tracy Thomas
Why?
[31:51]
Justine K
Because I'm really insecure. I have a lot of body insecurity. So I would be like, damn, he really does like this better.
[31:58]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I see. I see. Yeah, I see.
[32:00]
Justine K
Yeah.
[32:00]
Tracy Thomas
I think I'm. I think I would be okay with it.
[32:02]
Justine K
Yeah.
[32:03]
Tracy Thomas
Because I'm like, oh, well, I can never be that.
[32:05]
Justine K
Yeah. He's trying out a different flavor.
[32:07]
Tracy Thomas
Like, if someone, like, would look like me, I would be like, oh, she's the hotter version of me. So it's like a different kind of. I would be like, oh, it's. It's. It's like a fetish or something. And, like, just into, like, girls that look like me, but, like, I'm not as pretty as Tessa Thompson or whatever, you know? Like, I don't know why she popped into my head. I think because she's adapt this. And she sort of was my type. Yes.
[32:32]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[32:33]
Tracy Thomas
So I feel like I would. So I feel like if I'm Rebecca, while I might be, like, surprised.
[32:41]
Justine K
Yeah.
[32:43]
Tracy Thomas
I would probably be like, well, that's fine. I'm never gonna be that.
[32:48]
Justine K
Yeah.
[32:49]
Tracy Thomas
But I think it's also different if you're a white woman and he's picked a younger black woman. But, you know, I can't relate to that.
[32:54]
Justine K
And you just adopted a black daughter who you don't know how to do her hair.
[32:58]
Tracy Thomas
That would be. See, that would be weird, because when the daughter comes up, I think the note that I took is, eric's a creep.
[33:04]
Justine K
Yeah. There's a freaking weirdo.
[33:07]
Tracy Thomas
He's a freak.
[33:08]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah, It's.
[33:09]
Tracy Thomas
It's. It's creepy.
[33:11]
Justine K
Yep.
[33:12]
Tracy Thomas
And there's clearly some weird daddy thing because a, he comes after she says, daddy, this daughter. He's picked this woman who's like, the daughter. But there's also a scene where Rebecca in an Edie are doing the cadaver thing the first time when she drops the food off and has lobster bisque in her shoe.
[33:28]
Justine K
Oh, my gosh.
[33:29]
Tracy Thomas
She says something about her dad being dead. And Rebecca's like, does Eric know about that?
[33:33]
Justine K
Yeah.
[33:33]
Tracy Thomas
And she's like, no. And she's like, oh, okay, that's good. He doesn't need to know.
[33:37]
Justine K
Yeah, he doesn't need to know. Yeah. Keep it for yourself. Himself, she said. Yeah.
[33:41]
Tracy Thomas
So he clearly has daddy things.
[33:44]
Justine K
Yes. Savior things, perhaps.
[33:48]
Tracy Thomas
Maybe.
[33:50]
Justine K
I don't know exactly. They don't go into Eric's past, which I'm very thankful for. I don't need to know any more about Eric than I already do.
[33:56]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I feel like I know what I know. Yeah. Do we know. Do we know about Rebecca's dad?
[34:02]
Justine K
No.
[34:03]
Tracy Thomas
No.
[34:04]
Justine K
No.
[34:04]
Tracy Thomas
We don't know a lot about the white backstories.
[34:07]
Justine K
No, we don't. We don't. She fits into such a type of human being that I'm so familiar with, so I'd never bother to even be curious about her.
[34:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Wait. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to talk about this type of human being. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters, selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the Stacks merch and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, run smoothly and I basically never think about. What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all, I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon this is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you. You get all year long bonus episodes, access to the Discord community which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January. So you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks. Find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community.
[36:52]
Justine K
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Tracy Thomas
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Justine K
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Justine K
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Tracy Thomas
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[37:17]
Justine K
Continue bill credits or credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due.
[37:22]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we're back. We're here to talk about the specific kind of white ladies. Like Rebecca, middle name Moon Moon.
[37:33]
Justine K
Becky Moon.
[37:36]
Tracy Thomas
It's unfathomable.
[37:37]
Justine K
It is.
[37:38]
Tracy Thomas
But it is a specific kind of white lady.
[37:40]
Justine K
So it is. Yeah, Yeah. I know this white lady. I went to private school for a very long time. I'm from 5th grade to 12th grade. I know that this lady uses the tennis courts to like keep an eye on her kids. She has eyes in the back of her head. She has eyes everywhere. But she also does whatever the f she wants to do whenever she wants to do it. She has a staff of people who feel so guilty for dropping any ball on her dime, that she is so controlling of every situation that she's in, but appears as if she is like welcoming a hostess. A team mother will make the pulled pork sandwiches for the night before the game. Like that type of woman. I noticed woman.
[38:29]
Tracy Thomas
Not a pulled pork sandwich. I thought it was like an orange slice. I've been mommying wrong. Fuck. I've been bringing orange. Oh no, girl.
[38:37]
Justine K
You got to make the whole pasta dinner before the game for a night.
[38:40]
Tracy Thomas
For a 9:00am soccer match.
[38:43]
Justine K
Yeah, they need the.
[38:44]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, the night carbs or the night before? Oh, I was thinking, like, snack at the game. I was like, I've been bringing pirates booty and orange places. I'm okay now. Thank you. She is also so petty. Petty, Spaghetti. So cruel. Yeah, she's deeply cruel, Rebecca. I mean, obviously the first bit of cruelty is her inviting her to stay for dinner.
[39:18]
Justine K
I know. And giving her the dress.
[39:21]
Tracy Thomas
And then giving her the dress.
[39:22]
Justine K
Yeah.
[39:23]
Tracy Thomas
Dress that's too tight restricts her body.
[39:25]
Justine K
Yep.
[39:26]
Tracy Thomas
But she invited her to stay for dinner. That is extremely different than inviting her to stay for your anniversary party with your friends.
[39:35]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[39:36]
Tracy Thomas
Where you're gonna sing an acapella version of in the Air at night by Phil Collins.
[39:41]
Justine K
Oh, why, Becky? No.
[39:44]
Tracy Thomas
You've seen how to lose a guy in 10 days.
[39:46]
Justine K
I have, yeah.
[39:47]
Tracy Thomas
It reminds me of the scene where, like, Andy starts singing you're so vain.
[39:52]
Justine K
Yes. Oh, my God, yes. And then she does all those ad libs.
[39:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[39:59]
Justine K
Oh, yeah.
[39:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. It is like it would be a scene in something where people are wasted and it happens. But as far as I can tell, she's stone cold sober because they're not serving alcohol at the party, which he notices.
[40:14]
Justine K
Yeah. Because Eric.
[40:15]
Tracy Thomas
Because Eric does. Because Eric doesn't drink. Eric's sober. Big air quotes. That's that dinner party, that anniversary party.
[40:26]
Justine K
I also love how petty Edie can be in her descriptions. I will say.
[40:32]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[40:32]
Justine K
My favorite is she is, I suppose, sexy in the way a triangle can be sexy.
[40:46]
Tracy Thomas
I guess a triangle. I mean, I. I guess I think a triangle with three different sides. Like one really long one and one sort of short one.
[40:56]
Justine K
Yeah.
[40:56]
Tracy Thomas
She says isosceles.
[40:58]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah. There's different types of triangles. Maybe.
[41:01]
Tracy Thomas
Maybe I only know two. I know there's a third, but I can't think of the name. There's equilateral isosceles. Oh, scaling.
[41:08]
Justine K
Whoa.
[41:09]
Tracy Thomas
Did I pull that out? I didn't even Google that. People. Now I gotta double check, though. Scaling.
[41:13]
Justine K
You see why I was scared on this podcast, girl? Scaling pocket.
[41:17]
Tracy Thomas
Okay? Scaling is the kind I like. Scaling's got three different. Isosceles has two.
[41:23]
Justine K
Yeah.
[41:24]
Tracy Thomas
Two different legs. Yeah. Okay, I did have to Google that. Google that part. But I did come up with scaling. Yeah, I know people at home are probably in their car or whatever, like, listening, being, like, scaling, you dumb bitch. Scaling. And then I said it, and they were like. Because sometimes I get DMS when People are listening to the show. Answer. Something I eventually get to, but I can't figure. Like, I got a message. Someone was like, it's a little princess from our last conversation.
[41:47]
Justine K
Yeah.
[41:48]
Tracy Thomas
And then they were like, oh, you figured it out. Like I did. Yeah, but scaling guys, I got that without googling you. Yes. No. Saying someone is sexy in the way that a triangle can be sexy.
[41:59]
Justine K
That is shade. I love it.
[42:02]
Tracy Thomas
But is a tr. Is triangle the sexiest shape?
[42:06]
Justine K
Definitely not. No. What is the sexiest shape in my head? A circle.
[42:10]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, no, no. Why?
[42:15]
Justine K
What do you say?
[42:17]
Tracy Thomas
Circle is a happy shape. Circle just. I'm a circle. I am round. I'm perfect. Look at me, I'm a circle.
[42:25]
Justine K
Yeah. It can mold, it can move. What do you think? Think, though.
[42:29]
Tracy Thomas
No, a circle cannot. A circle is a circle. It cannot mold and move. It has to be equal, distant from the center, all the way around. It can bounce, it can roll, but it cannot change. Then it becomes like an oval or something.
[42:41]
Justine K
Oh, okay, okay, okay.
[42:44]
Tracy Thomas
I, I, maybe triangle is the sexiest. Maybe. Maybe a trapezoid.
[42:50]
Justine K
Yeah, a trapezoid is a good one.
[42:52]
Tracy Thomas
A trapezoid. Definitely not a square. Definitely not a rectangle.
[42:56]
Justine K
No, no.
[42:57]
Tracy Thomas
I think when you start getting into like hexagons, pentagons, there's too many sides.
[43:00]
Justine K
For me, I think.
[43:01]
Tracy Thomas
Too much shape.
[43:02]
Justine K
I was gonna say rhombus. Too much.
[43:05]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Well, rhombus is a trapezoid, technically. Rhombus is any four sided shape. And then there's different rules. So, like a square is a rhombus.
[43:15]
Justine K
Right.
[43:16]
Tracy Thomas
A rectangle is a rhombus. Okay. Trapezoid is a rhombus. A diamond is a, like a four sided. That's, you know. Anyways, I think I'm gonna go with triangle. Specifically scaling. Really? One long side on top, a short height, and then a medium width. I don't know. I'm sort of into it.
[43:34]
Justine K
Nice.
[43:37]
Tracy Thomas
I guess I'm into Rebecca. Rebecca's sort of my type. I guess. I don't know. I sort of love this triangular woman. This is not where I thought today's episode would go. Okay. On the flips. On the. Okay, wait. We. I have to keep telling the story of this book because I keep getting distracted. Someone talk more about these people. So Rebecca's cruel. She goes to this party, whatever. Eric takes Edie home the night of the anniversary, and Rebecca's like, what? It's our anniversary? And he's like, yeah, you did this. I'm gonna drive her home.
[44:16]
Justine K
I'm gonna drive her home. You Sang Phil Collins in front of anybody.
[44:18]
Tracy Thomas
I gotta go Acapella.
[44:20]
Justine K
Yeah.
[44:21]
Tracy Thomas
That song needs the drums. It's crucial. You can't just do in the air at night. You need the.
[44:30]
Justine K
I feel it coming in the air tonight, and you need the drum down.
[44:36]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
[44:37]
Justine K
And, girl, you haven't sang any other time in this book. I know you're not a singer.
[44:41]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah, we know she's not a singer. So he takes her home. They hook up aggressively in the car because he says, I want to hit you. And she says, do it.
[44:53]
Justine K
Go ahead.
[44:53]
Tracy Thomas
He hits her twice, hard as fuck. This is really the twist of the entire. This is where the book.
[45:01]
Justine K
You thought so.
[45:02]
Tracy Thomas
Not like. I feel like this is the turning point in the book. After this scene, the whole shit shifts.
[45:08]
Justine K
Yeah, yeah.
[45:09]
Tracy Thomas
Up until this scene. The book is one thing.
[45:11]
Justine K
Yeah.
[45:12]
Tracy Thomas
He hits her hard. She goes to work the next day and gets fired. Like, this is the scene in between. Like, that delineates for me the beginning of the book and the rest of the book.
[45:24]
Justine K
Okay.
[45:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I. I don't mean it's a surprise. Like, I didn't see it coming. Obviously, we knew there's a lot of physical violence in this book.
[45:31]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[45:33]
Tracy Thomas
A lot of physical violence. And just like. Not even. Just like, hitting and pushing, but also Rebecca's job. She. She does autopsies on. On veterans. Like, that's a really violent. You have to use a sign. You have to cut. Like, it's like. It's a lot of, like, really intimate, physical. Yeah. Gruesome stuff going on throughout this book.
[45:57]
Justine K
Yeah.
[45:58]
Tracy Thomas
After that, Edie gets fired, she starts to do, like, a delivery app to deliver food. She delivers some lobster bisque and a saw to, you guessed it, Rebecca at work. And then Rebecca's like, takes her back to the house.
[46:15]
Justine K
Yeah.
[46:16]
Tracy Thomas
While Eric's out of town for, like, a week.
[46:19]
Justine K
Yep.
[46:20]
Tracy Thomas
And Edie moves in.
[46:23]
Justine K
Edie moves in. Yeah. Yeah. I think what interested me so much about that, that exact delineation you were talking about is that Edie is constantly looking for physical affirmations that she is on this earth. I feel like she's constantly kind of, like, floating around. And that's why her decisions are so bad, because she doesn't really, like, live here. She really is like, a figment of an imagination or an idea that she thinks she's. She was a bad idea right between her parents. And so she's trying to constantly figure out, am I here or not? And Eric gave her the validation that she is here. So much so that she moves in to his house and raises his daughter.
[47:07]
Tracy Thomas
Well, and Rebecca gives her that validation too. I mean, Rebecca's, like, meanness towards her and curiosity about her, but also the thing that's so interesting about Rebecca and. And I think, like, especially in light of the election and, like, some of the conversations I'm seeing online around white women, in addition to her cruelty, she is generous.
[47:34]
Justine K
Yes. Yeah, it is.
[47:40]
Tracy Thomas
It is generous, even if it is manipulative generosity.
[47:44]
Justine K
Right.
[47:45]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I don't think it's generosity without strings, but she is, we think, giving Edie an allowance money. She does let her live in her house.
[47:55]
Justine K
Yeah. She gives her soap and toothbrushes and clothes.
[47:58]
Tracy Thomas
And I think, like, my read of it is, like, she's trying to assuage some sort of white guilt.
[48:05]
Justine K
Yeah, white guilt came up a lot.
[48:07]
Tracy Thomas
White guilt. I also think she's. To me, she feels like one of those people that when she does something mean, she has to overcorrect and, like, fix it.
[48:16]
Justine K
Yep, yep, yep.
[48:18]
Tracy Thomas
That, like, cruelty is tied to the generosity in a lot of ways, for sure.
[48:23]
Justine K
Yeah. Because she doesn't want karma, real karma, to come back and get her.
[48:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. It's, like, transactional. Like, she gets off on being mean, and she also gets off on, like, being the savior, like, doing the right thing, you know, being a good white person. And. And I. I mean, this will surprise nobody. Unfortunately, Rebecca is my favorite character in the book.
[48:45]
Justine K
What? Are you serious?
[48:46]
Tracy Thomas
I'm not saying I like her. Yeah, I'm the most interested in her every time she is on the page. I was excited. Like, I loved reading this really fucked up lady. Like, I just. Eric was meh to me, and I liked Edie a lot, but I felt like. Like, I think because. Also because the book is in first person, we get to see Rebecca more clearly than we get to see Edie because Edie's not always reflecting on herself. So, like, just, like, in. In the way that the book works, Rebecca is who. Where we're seeing. And I'm only talking about the main three. I'm not talking about Aquila because I don't think it's really fair to make her, like, a favorite character because she's so peripheral. She's in everything, but she's so peripheral to the book.
[49:34]
Justine K
Yeah. Okay.
[49:35]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
[49:35]
Justine K
Because I was gonna say she's my favorite.
[49:37]
Tracy Thomas
That's. It's because you're nice. And I like a crazy. I love a cr. I love a crazy woman. I like. Yeah, I know we're not supposed to call women crazy, but.
[49:49]
Justine K
No, These are crazy. Yeah, These people are crazy for sure.
[49:52]
Tracy Thomas
There's no other words for her.
[49:54]
Justine K
Yeah. I was really interested in Rebecca's mom's story. Like, who was that person raised by? Especially a person who would adopt a child without wanting to be a mother in their heart of hearts.
[50:05]
Tracy Thomas
And like an older child they adopted an older 10 year old or almost 11 year old.
[50:12]
Justine K
And she's doing all the things. Taking her karate class. She's taking her to Comic Con. She's like doing all the things. But she's also low key, abusing her, telling her to go on a run to her to counter calories in this.
[50:23]
Tracy Thomas
Not doing her hair.
[50:25]
Justine K
Not doing her hair. Which is the first cardinal sin, Rebecca.
[50:30]
Tracy Thomas
But no, this is a. This. Listen, I'm a mixed child.
[50:34]
Justine K
Huh.
[50:35]
Tracy Thomas
I have a white mother. Right. I am lucky because my white mother has curly hair.
[50:40]
Justine K
Oh, okay.
[50:43]
Tracy Thomas
And also my hair is not. I would. I have like mixed hair. Yeah. So it is similar to my mother's hair.
[50:51]
Justine K
Right? Yeah.
[50:52]
Tracy Thomas
But I know a lot of kids, Caucasian mothers who. A lot of black kids with Caucasian mothers who. In this hair problem. Well, I mean, in my day. Back in my day, that's different.
[51:07]
Justine K
When I see people, I mean, I. We all right. As black women whose hair grows up. Up. Whose hair grows in different curl patterns, whose hair grows into. We all learned on the Internet, girl, get on the Internet and learn how to do somebody's hair. What's wrong with you?
[51:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[51:21]
Justine K
Oh, God. It makes me.
[51:22]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[51:23]
Justine K
Angry.
[51:24]
Tracy Thomas
It is a very clear indication to me if a white woman has or. Or a white. I guess white men have. Have black children and their hair looks bad. Those white parents don't know black people. They don't have black friends.
[51:48]
Justine K
Nope. They have none.
[51:49]
Tracy Thomas
Because they might know a black person, but that person is not their friend because if that person was their friend, they would protect that child's hair.
[51:55]
Justine K
Yes. Yes. And they don't think that child deserves to look beautiful. They don't know how it's even possible. They don't know the road to beauty for that child's hair.
[52:07]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. But then again, on the flip side, I do see why people whose kids. Hair looks bad just they have white kids and I'm just like, what's your excuse here?
[52:17]
Justine K
Yeah, well, they just don't care, I guess.
[52:19]
Tracy Thomas
I guess they don't care about hair, about looking presentable. I don't know.
[52:24]
Justine K
Yeah.
[52:25]
Tracy Thomas
As my dad used to call children who looked like that. They used to. Used to call them ragamuffins.
[52:30]
Justine K
Yeah. That's Accurate.
[52:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. A little ragamuffin. And they got a kill out here looking like a ragamuffin.
[52:37]
Justine K
God. Like a ragamuffin with falling out. Her hair is falling out. She did a relaxer by accident, which is a lot of. And I love how she did the relaxer by accident. And Edie then goes immediately into her. I did a relaxer by accident story. So many black women have that story.
[52:58]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, I really did love the relationship between Akilah and. And Edie, especially by the end, because I do think that, like, it does it. It gives Edie a sympathetic. Yes, a sympathetic relationship. Because she doesn't have any in the book.
[53:20]
Justine K
Right. Maybe that's why I like Aila so much, because she makes Edie likable. Cool.
[53:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, she does. She helps. She helps Edie in the eyes of the viewer or reader. But also I like it because I feel like. I feel like Edie is. While I like her, she. She is so self absorbed. And it's like the one time she sees outside of herself is like this child.
[53:49]
Justine K
Yes, yes, that's true. That's true. And even in that she has to see herself in the child so many times in order to get to that level of generosity and gratitude for her. Yeah.
[54:02]
Tracy Thomas
How about the first time we see that kid? Oh, my God. I was like. Because I. We don't know that he has kids, but I just assumed he has kids and it was gonna be like these like two little bitchy ass white kids when they're like, there's a black child here. I was like, like, the nanny brought their child to the party. Like, I was like, who's this. Who's this black child?
[54:24]
Justine K
Who is this child? I just knew it was ghost that was in.
[54:28]
Tracy Thomas
It was haunting her.
[54:29]
Justine K
It was haunting her.
[54:30]
Tracy Thomas
It was the ghost of Edie passed. Yeah. Okay. So after Edie moves in, Eric comes home a day early. Oh, and we discover that Rebecca's into like, mosh pits again. More violence. Yeah, more physical violence. Every. There's a violence kink in this book for everybody, for sure.
[54:53]
Justine K
And it also makes her feel present. I think that.
[54:56]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, like, we're talking about that same. I mean, I think that Edie and Rebecca have a lot in.
[55:00]
Justine K
A Lot in common.
[55:01]
Tracy Thomas
There are very similar in their what. What they like, what they need. I think that's why they end up having this, like, weirdly intimate relationship.
[55:11]
Justine K
Very comfortable.
[55:12]
Tracy Thomas
Did. Okay, did I read this wrong? Why did I think that Edie and Rebecca hooked up? Isn't there a scene? Not at the end. With the painting. But no scene where they're, like, in the kitchen and it's like.
[55:23]
Justine K
Yep.
[55:23]
Tracy Thomas
They, like, run her fingers through her hair and then it sort of, like, ends the chapter. The section.
[55:29]
Justine K
Yeah.
[55:29]
Tracy Thomas
And I thought they were.
[55:31]
Justine K
Yeah, yeah.
[55:32]
Tracy Thomas
But maybe not.
[55:33]
Justine K
I thought so, too. I thought, there's no way that the writer would not go into what Rebecca finds pleasure. There's no way she would deny us of that. Raven, you wouldn't do that to us. Right. That's why I would think so. So I think maybe she almost got there. But again, the physical touch, just reminding everybody that they're here on this earth and not in their own head making these decisions for the plot. Thinking that.
[55:59]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
[56:00]
Justine K
The Broadway play of their life.
[56:01]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Right. People are doing.
[56:05]
Justine K
But I thought so, too. I know exactly what you're talking about.
[56:07]
Tracy Thomas
I. You're right. I would have loved to see a scene where Rebecca is like.
[56:12]
Justine K
Oh, my God. With another woman. Kinks. With another woman. I would love it.
[56:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. Or even, like, when she sees into Rebecca and Eric having sex.
[56:21]
Justine K
Oh.
[56:21]
Tracy Thomas
It's like that was actually a pleasurable scene for one of them, specifically Rebecca. Like, that would have been interesting.
[56:29]
Justine K
Yeah.
[56:29]
Tracy Thomas
Edie sneaking around, painting everything.
[56:32]
Justine K
I know. Thinking she's a creep, too. Thanks.
[56:35]
Tracy Thomas
In a different way, she's like. Like creepy. It's giving creepy crawlers. So, yes. Eric comes back. He does a full. Full silent treatment for, like, a lot of pages. For, like, let's see, for, like, 25 pages. Then they start hooking up again.
[56:56]
Justine K
Yeah.
[56:57]
Tracy Thomas
Wait, what? What was. What prompts them to start hooking up again?
[57:01]
Justine K
She walks into the bathroom, and he's in there shaving and listening to the.
[57:04]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, right. Downstairs in his, like, man's lair. That's right. That's right. He's listening to his, like, weird records that he thinks he's saving, but they're all warped anyways, right? Eric, you're such a loser.
[57:14]
Justine K
I know. He's such a loser. He thinks he's so cool because he likes disco.
[57:17]
Tracy Thomas
Do you know who. Do you know who he sort of reminds me of? This is like a very. This is my favorite loser. I hate him.
[57:24]
Justine K
Oh. Who?
[57:25]
Tracy Thomas
He sort of is giving Drake. He's sort of giving Aubrey crayons. That's correct. He does, like. He thinks he's, like, so cool and so hot and, like, can handle his liquor so good. Not the. Not the drink. I don't know anything about drinks. Yeah, but just, like, the whole thing. He thinks he's so. Such hot.
[57:52]
Justine K
Yeah.
[57:53]
Tracy Thomas
And meanwhile, your little Girlfriend and your wife are like, like weirdly besties and like, your records are warped. He can't get it up. Yeah, like, there's just like, so it's just like it's giving. Loser. And when I think loser, I think Drake.
[58:08]
Justine K
Yeah, that's accurate. I love that he's your favorite loser. That's such a good.
[58:11]
Tracy Thomas
He's my maybe not favorite. I mean, he's like my, like when he's like, if I open the dictionary to loser, that's what I see as Drake. And I just want to go on record again because I've been calling a Drake a loser long before Kendrick. I, I, I was on, I was on Sam Sanders show last fall screaming about what a loser Drake is. Like, this guy's such a dork. What a loser. Because I also think calling someone a loser is like such an extremely, like, pointed insult. It is like calling someone an asshole. Like, sure, everyone's an asshole, but a loser. You're a loser. Loser. You're a virgin who can't drive. It's very that coded. It is. Okay, so they start hooking up again. Then, then Rebecca, like, maybe catches them a little bit or like, sort of knows. So then they start going to, like, hotels and stuff.
[59:09]
Justine K
Dangerous.
[59:10]
Tracy Thomas
And then this gets pregnant.
[59:12]
Justine K
She sure does. She's reckless.
[59:15]
Tracy Thomas
He told her he was sterile.
[59:18]
Justine K
Oh, yeah, that's true.
[59:19]
Tracy Thomas
He said I'm sterile. That's why they adopted the kid, because I couldn't get pregnant.
[59:23]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[59:25]
Tracy Thomas
I don't know if that's a lie or it's just, you know, it act like sometimes people think they can't get pregnant and they can. So I don't, I don't know. I didn't read it necessarily as, like, a malicious lie, but also I didn't read it as an actual accident. So maybe somewhere in between.
[59:40]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[59:41]
Tracy Thomas
Then they're. And then it almost dies. He becomes unresponsive at the hotel and that's really the end of things for Eric. He does. He is revived. But Eric, it is over.
[59:58]
Justine K
It's over.
[59:59]
Tracy Thomas
We never really see Eric again. For the last 35 pages of the book, we see him puking at Comic Con because he's done shrooms.
[60:06]
Justine K
Yeah.
[60:07]
Tracy Thomas
But he becomes a nothing after this scene. Oh, I found the Note. On page 190 is where I thought that Rebecca and Eric, Eddie, Edie, have sex. Because I wrote, I've been waiting for this. Edie and Rebecca, finally. My notes are so crazy. Okay, here's what it is. I look at her face and See her irritation, but underneath it, something curious and more fixed. And I wrap my arms around her and regret it until she reciprocates, which she takes her time to do, her body shockingly hard as she pulls me in and runs her fingers through my hair. All of her ingredients, the formalin and ash and under eye cream, clarified at close range. Blackout. The next day is when she goes to the days in with Eric.
[60:59]
Justine K
He passed out at a day's end.
[61:00]
Tracy Thomas
At a day's end. And then I. And then also after this is when Rebecca is like, you need to go.
[61:07]
Justine K
Yes.
[61:08]
Tracy Thomas
Because I guess maybe they don't. Maybe her and Rebecca don't hook up. But clearly Rebecca wants to. And she thinks that she's, like, won the battle. Because clearly there's a battle between Rebecca and Eric for Edie.
[61:18]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah.
[61:19]
Tracy Thomas
And so I think she thinks, oh, I did it. And then they're having sex at days in and he nearly dies, and she realizes that. No, no. And then this is where maybe Edie has the power playing them.
[61:34]
Justine K
Yeah. Yeah. Especially the influence that she has at this point over their daughter.
[61:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[61:39]
Justine K
Because officially now she knows more about their daughter than they do.
[61:43]
Tracy Thomas
Right. And she's connected with her. Okay. Yeah, that's good. So I guess there's, like, one way to read this where it's like, Edie has all the power, and then there's another way to read it where she has none.
[61:55]
Justine K
Yeah.
[61:55]
Tracy Thomas
Like, she doesn't have a home. She doesn't have a job. She's living with these people. She is sort of at the whims of these people. But as we find out later, once Rebecca kicks her out, she is able to find a home and a job. So it's not like she's unemployable or unhome. How's her?
[62:09]
Justine K
And I don't think homelessness bothers her, and I don't think unemployment bothers her that much.
[62:14]
Tracy Thomas
No. Well, she clearly found. She found a job in a house pretty easily. Working for these white people.
[62:19]
Justine K
Yep.
[62:20]
Tracy Thomas
As their babysitter, sex object, and companion.
[62:24]
Justine K
Yeah.
[62:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. She's a sex worker, babysitter, and like, best friend all in one.
[62:29]
Justine K
Yeah.
[62:30]
Tracy Thomas
She gets a. Unspecified allowance.
[62:32]
Justine K
Huh. Artist 2.
[62:34]
Tracy Thomas
Why the. Does Rebecca shoot the dog?
[62:37]
Justine K
Oh, my God. I think the dog, I guess, is a reminder that, like, there's stuff going on around her that's out of her control because she's always saying that damn dog. I can't stand the dog. The dog's always barking. No one else hears a dog barking, but she Hears his dog barking. But the dog also is this old lady who's, like, peeking through the windows, always staring at them. So maybe she hates that old lady.
[63:05]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I have a metaphor.
[63:07]
Justine K
Oh, tell me.
[63:08]
Tracy Thomas
What if Edie is the dog and Rebecca is the old lady?
[63:17]
Justine K
Oh, my God. Probably looking at Eric across the way.
[63:22]
Tracy Thomas
Rebecca's always peeking around, poking her head in, looking around. It's like grown up. Rebecca is this old lady and Edie is the dog. And Rebecca hates Edie.
[63:34]
Justine K
Yeah.
[63:34]
Tracy Thomas
Kills the dog version.
[63:38]
Justine K
Oh, my God. That is so accurate. That is so good.
[63:43]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, that's how I see it. There might be a better answer, but I sort of also like the idea that.
[63:49]
Justine K
No, I love it.
[63:50]
Tracy Thomas
That the neighbor is just another version of Rebecca.
[63:53]
Justine K
Yeah. She fully. That's exactly who Rebecca's gonna turn into.
[63:56]
Tracy Thomas
And then they call the police for.
[63:58]
Justine K
Like, a week on the street over.
[64:00]
Tracy Thomas
A dead dog because what are we doing here?
[64:03]
Justine K
Because the police have nothing to do.
[64:05]
Tracy Thomas
Nothing to do. You live in New Jersey.
[64:08]
Justine K
I sure do.
[64:09]
Tracy Thomas
I know your neighborhood.
[64:10]
Justine K
Exactly what they're talking about, too. It is exactly what it's like. We had a domestic violence situation. I lived in Essex county too. Do. But a domestic violence situation upstairs from our apartment. One apartment ago, me and my family and the police would come in like 30 seconds.
[64:27]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[64:27]
Justine K
Because they had nothing to do.
[64:29]
Tracy Thomas
Not in New York.
[64:30]
Justine K
No. In New York, you gotta call 31 1. They don't come to the next day. Right. You gotta log in online. It's a whole thing.
[64:38]
Tracy Thomas
Gotta get in line. Yeah. Gotta call Eric Adams to go himself.
[64:43]
Justine K
Find him at a local lounge.
[64:45]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay. So the dog is killed. We don't know who did it. But we know who did it.
[64:50]
Justine K
We know who did it was Rebecca.
[64:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. We know it was gun girl. But then the police come and harass the two black girls on the doorstep of the home.
[65:04]
Justine K
Yep.
[65:05]
Tracy Thomas
And I, I. What I think is interesting about this book is it came out in 2020 and so it came into a world that was very interested in this scene. But it was written before.
[65:17]
Justine K
Yeah.
[65:18]
Tracy Thomas
And like, I don't know, to me, that part of the book felt the most contrived and, like, the least interesting.
[65:24]
Justine K
Yes, definitely.
[65:25]
Tracy Thomas
I think she'd already said all of that.
[65:28]
Justine K
Yeah.
[65:28]
Tracy Thomas
Without having to actually give us the scene.
[65:31]
Justine K
Yes. I thought so too. There was a moment right after she got fired on page 84 where she says that she thinks of her parents not because she misses them, but because sometimes you see a black person above the age of 50 walking down the street and you just know they've been through some shit. You know, they said thank you as they bled and that despite the roaches and instant oatmeal, you are still luckier than they have ever been. I thought that was.
[66:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[66:00]
Justine K
More than enough for me.
[66:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Well, and that, that section is in contrast to what she says later about Eric when they're, like, out to dinner or whatever, and she's like, she hates him. I gotta find it because it's one of my. It's one of my favorite bits in the whole. One of my favorite little bits in the whole book about, like, older men.
[66:23]
Justine K
Oh. Oh.
[66:25]
Tracy Thomas
It's on 208. She's talking about Eric and she says, so, sure, an older man is a wonder because he has paid 38 years of con Ed bills and suffered food poisoning and seen the climate reports and still not killed himself. But somehow, after being a woman for 23 years, after the ovarian torsion and student loans and newfangled Nazis and button downs, I, too, am still alive. And actually, this is the more remarkable feat. Instead, I let myself be awed by his middling command of the wine list.
[66:57]
Justine K
Yep.
[66:58]
Tracy Thomas
I just loved that read.
[66:59]
Justine K
Yeah. Like, like, I know. Yeah. I love that read too. Yeah. Of him just being so average.
[67:05]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay, so we have to do the, the end of the book because we're, like, so out of time.
[67:08]
Justine K
Okay.
[67:09]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Like, the day before she's supposed to get kicked out of the house. This. The scene with the cops happen. They physically assault both the women or the girl and the woman the next day. Or that night, Rebecca sleeps in her room. She wakes up, she's miscarrying this baby. They go to the hospital. Rebecca pays for everything, knows her birthday. Like, knows everything about her.
[67:36]
Justine K
About her. Yeah.
[67:37]
Tracy Thomas
And it is this real moment of, like, white woman in action.
[67:44]
Justine K
Yeah.
[67:46]
Tracy Thomas
Then Edie wears a diaper for a while because she's bleeding a lot.
[67:51]
Justine K
But she wants to cover this up. This Rebecca lady.
[67:54]
Tracy Thomas
She. She goes up, she gets out.
[67:56]
Justine K
Yep.
[67:57]
Tracy Thomas
She's done. She gets a job, she gets an apartment.
[68:00]
Justine K
Yep.
[68:01]
Tracy Thomas
The end.
[68:02]
Justine K
Yeah.
[68:03]
Tracy Thomas
What do you make of the ending?
[68:05]
Justine K
Oh, my God. I, I. Oh, well. And she also paints Rebecca.
[68:10]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, right, right. Rebecca gets nude and she paints her.
[68:13]
Justine K
Yeah.
[68:13]
Tracy Thomas
In the new apartment that Rebecca helped.
[68:16]
Justine K
Her move into, which is also wild. I loved the ending. I loved that Eric had nothing to do with it, as you said. And I love that it got back to her being an artist because that also gives her the permission to be unhinged. I thought, you know, she was at the very last moment before she got put down for this procedure, she said, no, I'm an artist. And she finally, like, lived in her truth. She was living her truth in Newark or wherever the hell she was living. That was great. What about you?
[68:47]
Tracy Thomas
I. I like the ending. I think, like, because the book built up so much, I was sort of hoping for a more explosive ending and a less sort of, like, fizzle ending. But I also think it feels right because that's how life is. Like, you live this crazy story, and then it's like, I got a new apartment, and I never saw those people again.
[69:05]
Justine K
Yes. Yes.
[69:07]
Tracy Thomas
And, like. And, like, in 10 years, it'll be like, oh. And then Aila, like, like, friended me on Facebook, which was so weird because I'm not even on Facebook anymore.
[69:15]
Justine K
Yeah, right.
[69:15]
Tracy Thomas
Like, it's like.
[69:16]
Justine K
Yep.
[69:17]
Tracy Thomas
So I did sort of like that part because it does end up feeling like a story you would tell, like, at brunch to your friends. Like, did I ever tell you guys about the white people I lived with for a month?
[69:26]
Justine K
Yeah.
[69:28]
Tracy Thomas
So it started with phone sex with the dad, and it ended with me miscarrying his baby in bed with the mom.
[69:36]
Justine K
Yeah.
[69:37]
Tracy Thomas
Like, what a story. Or with the wife. So I did. I did sort of like that. I mean, I think, like, the thing that this book does that's really cool is it is a satire. It is sort of a domestic thriller. It is, you know, sort of like a psychological thriller. Like, there's, like, a lot of genre happening within the book that I think that, like, Raven Leilani's playing with that I really liked. And it leaves you sort of feeling a little bit, like, disheveled in a way, which I would assume is like, you're sort of like, what did I just read? Which is how I assume that all of those characters would feel that night.
[70:12]
Justine K
That first night that.
[70:13]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Edie is gone out of the house or whatever. Like, what the. And, you know, Rebecca's like, are you done with your little open marriage thing? Or what's that? Yeah, right. Like, she comes home, and she's like, okay, I dropped her off. Like, are you done? Done? Are we done? Did we. Do we do your experiment or what?
[70:31]
Justine K
Yep. Yep.
[70:33]
Tracy Thomas
So I guess. I guess I did like the ending. The last thing we have to talk about and what we always talk about is the title and the COVID The book is called Luster. The title is sort of this, like, side close up of a woman's shoulder back, and then a black woman with curly hair, like a frozen kind of shiny. What do you think?
[70:59]
Justine K
I love it. Because there's no specific defined curl pattern either.
[71:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[71:05]
Justine K
This could be a lot of different people's hair. And it also seems to be not as manipulated. The curls look very, very natural.
[71:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[71:18]
Justine K
Which, by the end of the book, I understood why.
[71:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[71:22]
Justine K
Look like this. Yeah.
[71:23]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. So I thought luster was a word that meant, like, sex.
[71:29]
Justine K
Oh, no.
[71:31]
Tracy Thomas
Because I thought of lust. Yeah. I had no idea.
[71:34]
Justine K
Oh. Yeah.
[71:35]
Tracy Thomas
I. So I. A friend of mine who didn't like the book asked me what I thought of the title Soul. And I was like, I don't know. I hadn't thought about it. And she was like, oh, I. She thought the same thing as me. Is that luster, like, had to do with the word lust. Dust.
[71:47]
Justine K
Oh.
[71:48]
Tracy Thomas
But really, it is a glow of reflected light.
[71:52]
Justine K
Yeah.
[71:52]
Tracy Thomas
I'm just reading the definitions. A glow of light from within, a superficial attractiveness or appearance of excellence, a glass pendant used especially to ornament, a candlestick or chandelier, and a fabric with cotton warp and a filling of wool, mohair or alpaca.
[72:11]
Justine K
I don't know.
[72:12]
Tracy Thomas
That's, I guess, a British definition.
[72:13]
Justine K
Okay.
[72:14]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. Yeah, sorry, We. There's tea in the harbor, so we.
[72:17]
Justine K
Don'T need to do that one.
[72:20]
Tracy Thomas
But, I mean, it's. It's a brilliant title given what the word actually means. I thought it was sort of a weird title, given mine being like, oh, it's a book about lust. Like. Okay. Because I remember thinking halfway through, I was like, I was hoping for more lust, but now that I understand, I mean, I think the, like, superficial attractiveness or appearance of excellence is such a good, like, alternate definition. So I ended up really liking it. Also, the COVID is shiny. Lusterious. I don't know what the correct word is for that, but it definitely has that sort of shiny.
[72:56]
Justine K
It's almost iridescent on the COVID as well.
[72:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. It reflects light. It has a sheen. So I. I liked it. I. Overall, I think this was a really fun book. I was hoping you would hate it so that we could fight about it, but. So people at home. You'll have to fight with me and Justine about it in the dms, I guess. Or come to book club.
[73:15]
Justine K
Yeah.
[73:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Join the Patreon and come to book club.
[73:18]
Justine K
Yeah. And if you want to see us fight, we could fight. We fight about the Bachelor.
[73:22]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
[73:22]
Justine K
Yeah.
[73:22]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Because you always take the side of the worst humans shows.
[73:26]
Justine K
Yep.
[73:27]
Tracy Thomas
Like, you liked Hannah.
[73:29]
Justine K
Sure.
[73:29]
Tracy Thomas
From Love is Blind.
[73:30]
Justine K
I'm a Hannah apologist. I'm Not Team Hannah, but I was a Hannah apologist for sure. I'll wear that.
[73:34]
Tracy Thomas
I'm not even. I'm not even. Just want to. Saying her name. Say her name again. That's how much I hate it.
[73:40]
Justine K
Most people. Yeah.
[73:41]
Tracy Thomas
Awful.
[73:41]
Justine K
Yeah.
[73:42]
Tracy Thomas
Anyways, you all can catch Justine wherever you get your reality TV podcast, AKA two black girls, one rose. And I'll link to everything in the show notes and make sure you listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our December book club pick will be. Yeah. Justine, thank you for doing this with me. This was so much fun.
[74:02]
Justine K
Oh, thanks for having me. Me.
[74:03]
Tracy Thomas
Everybody else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Justine K. For joining the show. All right, drum roll, please. Now it's what you've all been waiting for. The announcement of our December book club pick. We are going to be reading Tacky by Rax King. This is an essay collection. It's funny, it's heartfelt. It's a celebration of pop culture and guilty pleasures that shape who we are. It's all about tackiness, nostalgia, things like the Cheesecake Factory. And I can't wait to read it with you. We'll be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25th. Yes, Christmas. Tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be for this episode. If you love this podcast and you want to support the work that I do, if you want inside access and really fun Perks, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and Tick Tock. And you can check out our website at the Stacks Podcast. This episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Das with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirius. The stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.