Nora McInerney (4:47)

Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you for saying my last name correctly. And I just want to say to all your former best friends, yes, you had your time. Yeah, you've been at your time and you've got riddance Goodbye forever.

Tracy Thomas (4:58)

I'll miss you sometime.

Nora McInerney (5:01)

Sort of.

Tracy Thomas (5:02)

Likely not.

Nora McInerney (5:03)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (5:04)

Okay, Nora, tell the people a little bit about yourself. I know this is the worst part, but just in case they don't just like a little. Do a little bit.

Nora McInerney (5:13)

Yes, Yes. I am the writer of funny books about sad things and the creator of podcasts that kind of do the same. And my entire career as I know it right now for the past decade, was the result of the most successful piece of writing that I will ever do. And it wasn't even my own project. It was a co write. My late husband. I'd never have said late husband. He's not fudgeing late. He's dead. My dead husband. My first husband, Aaron Permort, and I wrote his obituary together in 2014 when he was on hospice for brain cancer. The night he entered hospice, he really wanted to watch Game of Thrones. And I was like, will you help me with this? I was like, just in case, cuz, like, I don't want to do this on my own. And it went viral. Like 2014 viral, Tracy. And it.

Tracy Thomas (6:03)

That's real viral, too.

Nora McInerney (6:05)

Real viral. And you know what? It led people to my Tumblr that's very 2014. And you know what that led to? A book deal. And that is the question that people always want to know about somebody else's career, which is like, how did you get there? The only route that works, fall in love, have them die, and then the whole time that they were dying, have a Tumblr that is mostly password protected because it's kind of like a journal for you and your family. And then. And then just go from there. Okay. Then just be so depressed you can't go to work and sort of quit your job. But also, like, you know, they kind of wanted you to leave. I don't know. So now I am. I'm the host of a podcast called Terrible. Thanks for Asking. And a podcast called It's Going To Be okay. And I've written five books that are about life and grief and kind of everything in between. And I'm so sorry that my elevator pitch is like the Willy Wonka elevator.

Tracy Thomas (7:09)

No, it's great. It's great.

Nora McInerney (7:10)

I don't know.

Tracy Thomas (7:10)

You nailed it. I think you nailed it. You're from the Midwest.

Nora McInerney (7:13)

I'm from Minneapolis. Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Tracy Thomas (7:16)

But now you're in Arizona.

Nora McInerney (7:18)

I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. I am an early, early bird, early snowbird, so. And I moved here when I was 37, and it was the pandemic, and I went to a Store Tracy. I was wearing a mask. And the story.

Tracy Thomas (7:36)

I don't even know why I'm laughing.

Nora McInerney (7:37)

But I'm already laughing because you are now. And I was like, oh, you know, I, you know, just moved here, and this girl goes, oh, did you retire? And I was like, I'm gonna 37 kill myself.

Tracy Thomas (7:46)

Do you need my ID? Do you want to ID me?

Nora McInerney (7:48)

I was like, I. Yeah, I did. I was like, how old do you think I am? But when I was 22, anyone who was over, you know, 25, I was like, are you dead?

Tracy Thomas (7:59)

Yeah.

Nora McInerney (7:59)

Are you.

Tracy Thomas (7:59)

Are you an elder? Do you need help?

Nora McInerney (8:02)

Are you okay?

Tracy Thomas (8:03)

Are you lost? Yeah. Okay, this is my big question for you. It's. I. I really have, like, one question for you, and I'm gonna ask it in, like, seven different ways, but here's the first attempt.

Nora McInerney (8:13)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (8:14)

Do you get tired of being the grief person?

Nora McInerney (8:17)

Yeah, because I don't think I am. And I never tried to be.

Tracy Thomas (8:21)

But you are to so many people. You're the person where it's like, when someone's husband dies or someone this dies or something. It's like, oh, do you know Nora McInerney? Like, you should listen to her podcast. So you don't think you're a grief person?

Nora McInerney (8:34)

I don't. I don't think I'm a grief person necessarily. I've called myself, like, a reluctant, like, you know, grief advocate, but. And yet, Tracy, everything I do always has a sprinkle of sadness to it. I can't help it.

Tracy Thomas (8:49)

Were you always, but you were not always? Because I've read your books, and you talk about how when you were young, you were like, nothing bad ever happens.

Nora McInerney (8:56)

Yeah. And I was also just, like, had this thread of, like, dread running through me, like, and. And anxiety and depression. Like, I was like, a depressed little kid, too.

Tracy Thomas (9:07)

Interesting.

Nora McInerney (9:08)

And nothing had happened. And yet I would. You know, I couldn't go to a sleepover because then my family would die.

Tracy Thomas (9:15)

Okay. This was. This is one of the things we have in common.

Nora McInerney (9:18)

I'm like, I gotta get home. My whole family is gonna die. They are relying on me. If I'm not in that bed, it's curtains for all of them. It's curtains for all of them. And I. I don't. I never get sick of being. It's hard to explain. It's like, I. I. I never get sick. It's. It's always like, I'm always relieved if somebody can find some comfort in those times, in anything I've done. Right.

Tracy Thomas (9:47)

Right.

Nora McInerney (9:47)

And, like, I think anyone would be. I don't ever want to be just one thing. I never intended to be just one thing. I don't perceive myself that way. Like we were saying earlier, it's like, I don't even. I don' like, perceive myself as a mom.

Tracy Thomas (10:02)

Right.

Nora McInerney (10:02)

You know, people are like another thing.

Tracy Thomas (10:04)

We have in common.

Nora McInerney (10:05)

Yeah. You know, like mom culture. I'm like, oh, our. Oh. I mean, yeah, I have kids, you know, but I just.

Tracy Thomas (10:11)

I just.

Nora McInerney (10:12)

Yeah, it's sort of. It's sort of kind of like a strange thing to me. And yet, you know, even when I try to do something that is, like, purely, like footloose and fancy free, I just. I keep going. I. I can always find, like, the little, like, the hard stuff.

Tracy Thomas (10:32)

Yeah. Do you feel like, okay, let me tell you why I would hate to be you.

Nora McInerney (10:38)

Yeah. I mean, I'd love to be you.

Tracy Thomas (10:42)

For a lot of reasons. But the thing that I think about when I, like, project myself on you is that I feel like people expect a certain thing from you and, like, certain feelings and behaviors from you. Because many of us have followed you for such a long time and have, like, been part of or feel like we're part of your story, because we were there when you were, like, deep in the throes of grief, and then like, when you met your new husband and like, you know, so it's like I. I could. I would feel stuck sometimes if I were you, because I would feel there's, like an expectation.

Nora McInerney (11:18)

Yeah, I.

Tracy Thomas (11:19)

How does that feel?

Nora McInerney (11:20)

Yeah, I was not planning on talking about all this stuff. I think it's actually a great day to talk about it. And I. That is one reason I put the podcast on hiatus in March. And by that I just was like, I cannot keep up with this grind. And a part of it is, you know, I've. A lot of people have burned out working on my show. We. I don't know how, like, inside Podcast. You want to get inside. You know, let's go. You know, but it's like, as you. As you may or may not know as a listener, a bunch of VC money, a bunch of fake investment money poured into the podcasting space around, let's say, 20, I don't know, 19, 20, whatever, who cares? And a lot of that was through advertising, like direct to consumer brands, right. Where they're just pumping money and it's all awareness campaigns, campaigns. All of a sudden people are getting million dollar deals, $2 million deals, $10 million deals, hundred million dollar deals to try to recoup some of that or try to fill all the available ad space. Shows should always be on. These deals happen. There aren't enough pillows in the world that you can sell to recoup $100 million. I was in public radio at the time making this show and even if you were not making that kind of money, you were sort of pressured into becoming a show that was weekly. We ended up making a show that was, you know, an hbo. An HBO level show. Right. Like highly produced. We do the interview, we listen to it for hours. We, we pull tape, we write a script, we craft a story. It's, it's sound designed and da, da, da, da. We went from a seasonal model, like really in depth to always on with no change in.

Tracy Thomas (13:15)

Right.

Nora McInerney (13:15)

In staff. Right. And when in audiences. And this isn't everybody either. It's like, I'm not. This is such a small percentage of the population. But when you start to get reviews or emails that are like, this just isn't sad anymore, like, what happened? It's like, what do you think happened? Capitalism happened. And also I am just a person and when I open up my inbox and it's people who are just trauma dumping on me in a way that I didn't, didn't always consent to. This stuff comes at me in like, you know, DMs on a Tuesday and it'll be a horrifying photo that somebody sends me and oh, I don't know where to put this, but you know, like my, you know, baby was just killed by my ex husband and here's the photo of her and the nicu true story. Something that happened to me and you know, I'm like sitting there on the couch with my kids. Like, um, or when the expectation like you mentioned is like, oh, it better be sad or it better be more traumatic. It better be. It better be. It better be. And if you really listen to the first season of my show, the first episodes really aren't about like death and grief. It's like about all kinds of things, you know, like, it's about all kinds of, you know, difficult or challenging life experiences. And as my life has, as I've continued to live my life, you know, I can't stay in that space forever. Yeah, you know, yeah, I can't stay in that space forever. So I kind of hit the pause button, hoping to have time to think about what I really, really want to do, which is scary because that's how I make money. And you know, and now there, there's less of it. But yeah, I, I, that's, that's kind of how we got to where we are now, where I'm kind of in that liminal space.

Tracy Thomas (15:05)

Yeah.

Nora McInerney (15:05)

Between things.

Tracy Thomas (15:06)

Right. I mean, something that I really like, Respect about you and a thing that we have in common is that, I mean, not all of this part. What I respect about you is I feel like you're good at boundaries in a lot of ways. Like, I feel like you're really clear about, you know, who you're supposed to be for other people. The thing that we have in common is that we don't put our kids on the Internet. You used to, but you don't anymore, and I never did. When you're setting these boundaries, when you're taking a step back from the work, when you're, when you're changing the path, what's going on for you? Is it, Is it hard? Does it feel right? Do you know it's the right thing to do? Because that's where I struggle sometimes. I'm like, I feel like I should do this. And then I'm like, what about the money? Like, what about the.

Nora McInerney (15:45)

Yeah, yeah. I would say that's such a good compliment. And I'm so excited to go to therapy and tell my therapist that somebody said that about me, because she's going to be so proud of it. She was obviously a huge part of that. And, you know, probably last winter, I was crying in her office, and I was like, I don't think I can do this. You know, like, I don't think I can do this. And she said, you got here. I've been waiting for you.

Tracy Thomas (16:10)

Yeah.

Nora McInerney (16:10)

I was like, damn, okay. I was like, oh, okay, okay. And I think that there is a natural terror to that. For a long time, I have been burned out. You know, in 2022, when I went on the Bad Vibes Only tour, it was a combination book and podcast tour. And, you know, the planning of that was largely me and my team. And it was 21 cities in 24 days, 11 live shows. And then the rest were like, book events. And that is because, like many people who have ADHD and perfectionism, I just had post its on a calendar. And when I saw blank days, I was like, I could do more.

Tracy Thomas (16:54)

I could fill that in.

Nora McInerney (16:56)

I could fill that. Look at. There's two spaces. Like, what am I gonna do on those two days? I don't know. Live your life. And, you know, even before I went on that tour, I was having a full mental breakdown in a hotel room in Las Vegas. Head under the Pillow screaming while my poor friend Caroline Moss, like, had her headphones on and was working on her Black Friday content and was like. She's like, what? Stop. Keep it down. You know, like, hoping I would get hit by a car. Put into, like, a light coma. Four to six weeks, nothing happens to my face or my spine. Maybe some appendages are injured. No internal. Just put into a twilight sleep. I wake up, no one's mad at me because I got hit by that car. So you can't be mad that the tour was canceled, right? You know, like, just don't be mad at me. Like, that kind of fear is still there, right, if I change, you know? And right now, we're only making the podcast for paid subscribers. And, you know, we're. We're coming back in the new year. I don't have a date for it, but we're coming back in a different way, you know, and in a way that I think is more reflective of where and how I am right now and the kinds of work that I want to do. Because, you know, I got a text from one of my beloved aunts yesterday, and she said, hey, you know, one of my husband's friends emailed you, and this horrible thing happened to him. And I'm wondering if you saw the email. And I was like, I did not see the email and let him know. I appreciate him reaching out, but I am not a trauma receptacle at this point in time.

Tracy Thomas (18:39)

Yes. I feel like so many authors who write memoirs have talked to me about this.

Nora McInerney (18:44)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (18:44)

About this. Like, when they go on their book tour and, like, the things that they talk about in their memoir, then people come to the signing and are like, by the way, my da, da, da, da, da.

Nora McInerney (18:52)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (18:52)

And I'm like, that seems just really awkward. Okay. I want to pivot off you being sad.

Nora McInerney (18:58)

Yes.

Tracy Thomas (18:58)

You're welcome. This is called a favor. Yeah. And I want to talk about all of us being sad, General, because. Okay, this is the thing that I'm. I. I love grief. I'm a grief enthusiast. I like to read about it. I like to think about it. You know, my dad died when I was, like, 25, and so I feel like it really informed how I think about, you know, when other people have lost or whatever. But the thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently, not just because the election was last week, but even before that, is like, collective grief or, like, communal grief. And you talk about. I can't. I think it's in bad vibes only. You talk about everything is good and bad.

Nora McInerney (19:38)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (19:40)

And I feel like that's a hard one sometimes when we're in these moments of collective grief, because it's hard to admit that there's, like, good and bad. So I wonder how you think, again, as like, a person that people look to in these moments where they feel bad about, like, the broader collective grief stuff.

Nora McInerney (20:03)

Yeah. I also. If I can just go back to the first thing, too. It's like, I. I will always. Because I never want to sound like. And I hate my. You know, I just don't want this. But it's like, I. Like you said, I will always be a grief enthusiast.

Tracy Thomas (20:15)

Right.

Nora McInerney (20:16)

Like, there will. That will always be a part of me. One thing that I know, I said it in my TED Talk before I even truly lived it is like, wait, did I say it? I don't remember. But it's like, that will always be a part of me. Right. But something I've told my kids about, you know, all of their different life experiences, too, is like, sometimes that will be the headline, and sometimes it will be a bullet, and sometimes it'll be a footnote. It's not my headline anymore, is what I want to say. That is not my headline. It's always going to be a part of me. It's always going to be a thread through my work, but it is not my primary identity anymore.

Tracy Thomas (20:52)

Being a grief person.

Nora McInerney (20:54)

Being a grief person, you know?

Tracy Thomas (20:56)

Yeah.

Nora McInerney (20:56)

Like, I. I think that there is. There's more to. For me to experience, and there's more for me to talk about, and I built, like, this little box for myself that really reflected what I needed at the time, and now it feels like it's time to kind of open that up and, like, widen the aperture. Okay, so everything being good and bad. What was that question? Sorry.

Tracy Thomas (21:23)

I don't know. I actually want to talk about what you just said because I feel like the other thing about grief is that, like, in the sense that everything is good and bad is that it is in everything.

Nora McInerney (21:34)

Yeah. Yeah, Right.

Tracy Thomas (21:35)

Like, it's like this idea. It's like, oh, this person is grieving currently for. For the next six weeks. But it's like, no, it's just sort of, like, sprinkled on everything.

Nora McInerney (21:44)

It's sprinkled in everything. Like, grieving people have to. Okay, this is crazy, Tracy. But, like, Saturday morning, I woke up, I got a text, and it was like, oh, this woman I went to college with, her husband died in the middle of the night, and they were about to go to a big college Football game. It was like a big family thing, right? Like, she wakes up, he's dead. He's got to go off to the Morgan. She's like. Calls me. She's like, I mean, I still want to go to the game. Like, what else am I going to do today? I was like, girl, go to the game. Go to the game. Who cares? I was like, you've never done this before. Your family's never done it before. He's never died before. Like, go to the game. Also, there might be another. What you. In a. In a stadium of 30,000 people. You have no idea how many people's husbands dropped dead last night, you know?

Tracy Thomas (22:26)

Right? Like, find your new best friend.

Nora McInerney (22:27)

What else are you going to do, though? You know what I mean? Like, even when your world has fallen apart, the rest of the world is still spinning, and you still have to go to Nordstrom and say, I'm looking for a dress. And the person says, is it a special occasion? And you're like, I don't know. It's my husband's funeral. You know, and you just get to watch them. Right? You know, it is, like you said, it's a part of everything, so.

Tracy Thomas (22:47)

But my question before was just about, like, collective grief or, like, broader grief. Do you think about that stuff a lot? Do you feel like. Do you. I don't know. I. I think I do think about it a lot recently, but I'm just curious about. Because you're.

Nora McInerney (22:59)

Because you're.

Tracy Thomas (23:00)

Yeah. I mean, a reluctant one.

Nora McInerney (23:02)

I mean, I think I think about that all the time. I thought about that when the pandemic started, too, that there were people who were so. So disoriented by, you know, the solitude or by, you know, the suddenness or by the loss of all of these experiences and people and states of being. And it felt very, very familiar to me as a widow. It really did. I was like, oh, yeah. So that life has disappeared, and now we're here, and now there's no floor and there's no ceiling, and somehow there's, like, one wall dangling from nowhere. It just felt. It felt really familiar. And I. A lot of widows said the same thing. Like, oh, yeah, we've We've somehow, like, been here before. And we are. So it's not just that we're like a grief intolerant, grief, illiterate culture. Like, we are a struggle, illiterate, struggle, intolerant culture. Like, we just. America loves a winner. Like, that's what we like. We just. We love a winner. And if you are having a hard time with anything. It is always boing fwhip back to you. Right? It's your head. Think different thoughts. Like, you know, right thought, right action. All of this sort of cultish language that we use to take responsibility off of institutions and put it right back on an individual, which is not where it belongs. And that's why I try really, really, really hard to save my anger for aim it a little bit higher than the person who is in front of me because I have more in common with that person. Our struggles are intertwined in a way that they are not. If you just like look up, look up 10 or 20 floors, like, that's our common enemy. Okay.

Tracy Thomas (25:03)

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back. Hey, y'all. I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon. This is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long. Bonus episodes, access to the Discord community, which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus, there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now, we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge. That is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life. And that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks. Find all the information there, and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters. Selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the Stacks merch and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly and I basically never think about. What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks now at T mobile.

Nora McInerney (27:38)

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Tracy Thomas (27:51)

Using debit or bank account, $5 more.

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Tracy Thomas (28:00)

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Balance on a required finance agreement, due bill credits and if you pay off devices early ct mobile.com.

Tracy Thomas (28:08)

Okay, this is the part of the show where we actually talk about books.

Nora McInerney (28:11)

Okay, you're.

Tracy Thomas (28:12)

You're off the grief hot seat. You are now in. Oh, you've got your. I've got my worksheet questions ready. But I do have one surprise thing for you before we do it. So every month we take a question from a listener. They're asking for a book recommendation. I'm going to read to you what they said.

Nora McInerney (28:25)

Okay.

Tracy Thomas (28:25)

You're going to come up with at least one book.

Nora McInerney (28:27)

Okay.

Tracy Thomas (28:28)

Up to three. I'm going to do three because I'm prepared. But you're being surprised. So here we go. This one is. Oh, and it's called. We call this Ask the Stacks. If people at home want to have their book recommendations read on the air, you can email Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com okay, this comes from Aaliyah. Leah said I loved your. Oh well, this was not actually my last podcast, but she said I loved your podcast with Andrew Leland about his book the country of the Blind. I am reading the book right now and I love It. I have heard you mention the idea of memoir plus as a genre, where there is a strong narrative arc of a memoir with strategic exploration of historical or informational context to deepen the narrative. I feel like Invisible Child, which I also loved, is another book that does this. Though it isn't a memoir, it does follow a person's story. What other books do you love in the memoir plus genre? I can go first. Okay, take some.

Nora McInerney (29:23)

Thank you. Thank you.

Tracy Thomas (29:24)

So the first one that comes to mind, which is more in line with Invisible Child, is the book His Name Was George Floyd by Robert Samuels and Toluse Olnuripa. It is about George Floyd. That's his name, and it's really great. I. I love the book. I knew it was going to win the Pulitzer Prize when I read it because it reminded me so much of Invisible Child, where they give George Floyd sort of the presidential treatment. So they tell you his life story, but they go back and find out, like, his ancestors who were enslaved, and they find out about the family who owned him, and they give you all this context on his life. I just think it's a really well done sort of biography. Plus, if you will. The next one I have is actually an essay collection and it does relate to disability, similarly to country of the Blind. It's called how to Tell When We Will Die by Johanna Hedva. It's a collection of essays all about disability, pain, work or care. Work, pain. Kind of like the icky stuff like shit and piss. And also some of the, like, fun, creative thinking of wrestling as being, like the most. One of the most safe spaces, like, for bodies and the way that, like, mosh pits take care of each other and stuff. And it's just really interesting thinking around disability. And I'm just a real big fan of Johanna Hedva's work because they're really badass. And then the last one is My Own country by Abraham Vergaze, who probably people know as the Covenant of Water guy. He used to be a doctor. He might still be. And when he. He immigrated to America in the 80s and he was a doctor and he was doing his residency in rural Tennessee, and he's an infectious disease specialist. And if you're following the dots, around the late 80s and early 90s, that's AIDS time. And so he was this brown person from India in rural Tennessee treating people for this mysterious disease which turns out to be HIV aids. And it's his story about being there and, like, how he's treated and dealing with, you know, heterosexual Couples who are coming down with a gay plague from New York and like, trying to negotiate all of these stereotypes. And it's just really, really beautifully written. So those are, those would be my three. Did you come up with one?

Nora McInerney (31:40)

Okay, so my suggestion is, have you read Bright Sided by Barbara Ehrenreich, one of my favorite writers? She wrote Nickel and Dimed, which was, you know, that experimental memoir where she like, basically tried to live a minimum wage in like the 90s in three different C. And discovered, duh, it's impossible. Impossible. And I remember reading that when I was probably in college and realizing she had done one of the experiments in Minneapolis where I grew up, and just thinking like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay. So this is Bright Sided. How positive thinking is undermining America. She has this way of writing that feels like you are reading a magazine and having a conversation. This is about toxic positivity. I think before that phrase was even coined or at least popularized. And starts with the story of her cancer diagnosis and what is wrapped up in more toxic positivity and positive thinking than cancer.

Tracy Thomas (32:48)

Right, Cancer.

Nora McInerney (32:49)

And that chapter is called Smile or Die. And I, I loved this book when I first read it when it first came out. This is probably like the second or third copy that I've had. It is. She's such a good researcher. She pulls from so many sources, interviews, life experience. It's just a fantastic book.

Tracy Thomas (33:11)

That sounds amazing. Okay, Leah, if you read any of these books, you have to let us know what you think. And now onward, two books you love, Nora, and one book you hate.

Nora McInerney (33:20)

Oh, boy. Okay, I just want to start with a hate. But I, I, I don't want to. Okay, so first I'm going to start out by saying that I, when I love a book, I love it so much. And the book that I am absolutely in love with this year is I Cheerfully Refuse by Leif Anger. I don't know Anger. I will not rest until everybody has read his books. But specifically, I cheerfully refuse.

Tracy Thomas (33:49)

Okay.

Nora McInerney (33:50)

It is an Odyssean journey in a near future where billionaires have raped and plundered our world and now live on in space or on the water. Specifically, his books tend to take place on Lake Superior in northern Minnesota. And the main character is pulled into this journey, the hero's journey he does not want to take. It feels so immediate and feels so current and also feels like the past at the same time, the world has lost all hope. And yet this man and the little girl on his that he finds on this, on his little boat on an inland sea called Lake Superior. They persist. It is such a beautiful, beautiful book. He belongs. It's timeless and it's timely. His use of language is so beautiful. I have bought that book so many times because I give it to people and I say, give this back to me and I forget who has it. And then I can't stand to not have the book in my home. That is how much I love that book.

Tracy Thomas (35:07)

Okay, okay.

Nora McInerney (35:09)

The second is the Heart is a Lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers. And I read it when I was so young. I was reading books that maybe were not like completely age appropriate for me, but as a sort of like weirdly depressive little child who again, had not experienced anything particularly difficult, but sort of like was ready with that kind of like existential dread. I just loved her. She is, I want to say like southern gothic, but sometimes I'm dumb. And I don't know if that's like quite the right way to like describe.

Tracy Thomas (35:47)

It about books actually. So.

Nora McInerney (35:49)

Okay, good, good, good, good. Same, same. I've like, I'm like, oh, I don't know. Was that a past participle? Couldn't tell you. Couldn't tell you. Sorry.

Tracy Thomas (35:55)

I still don't know the three voices. I'm like, first per.

Nora McInerney (35:57)

I'm like, first, it could be omniscient. Same. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (36:00)

Second, who knows?

Nora McInerney (36:01)

I'm attempting to write fiction right now and I'll Google like, wait, what tense for book? What do I like? I'm like, I can't. Is it now or is it. Did it already happen? I can't tell. I'll change my tenses all the time. But those are two books that I like have to have in my shelves at all times. A book I hate Just one. I mean, I hate. Dude, I love a hate hate men's self help, but I have a special hatred for Tim Ferriss and the four hour work week. The way that book wrapped its grubby little fingers around a generation of men celebrated scamming essentially. Right. Like, no one works a four hour work week. Okay, that's, that's not a thing. He essentially was like, just sell vitamins on the Internet and drop ship them. Okay. Wow. What a. What a genius.

Tracy Thomas (36:58)

What an mlm.

Nora McInerney (36:59)

What an mlm. What in the MLM are you talking about? Right? And just sort of elevated him into this echelon of like thinkers when. I've never read a more thoughtless book. Yeah, I just, I just think anytime I see that somewhere, I think, what are you talking about? In that same vein like, you are a badass all.

Tracy Thomas (37:21)

Oh, yes.

Nora McInerney (37:22)

Hate any book. Actually, there's one more that I just like. It's like I just, I hate. It's all, it all just feels like one giant grift. One giant grift. And all these people know each other, and they all promote each other, and they're all saying the same thing, which is like, you can do it. Honestly, you probably can't. You probably can't. You probably can't. If this, this is a person writing a book who is in the right place at the right time, you probably, you could make a podcast that is just as good as mine, if not better. Without a giant machine behind you in the year 2024, you could not match the success I have had. You couldn't. And I couldn't either. I can't do it again. It's not happening again. I did it once, and that's it. And that's what people will never tell you about their success, is that they cannot replicate it. They can just sell the dream to you.

Tracy Thomas (38:17)

Right. Right. That's so good. Okay, you, what kind of reader are you? We didn't even talk about your book podcast that you had. Yeah, you had one called Terrible Reading.

Nora McInerney (38:28)

Yes, yes. I, Because I love to talk about books, but also just love to start things. Then I also just, you know, I, I, I like the 24 cities in 21 days or 21 cities in 24 days. I'm just like, who's going to do this? Like, when am I going to do this?

Tracy Thomas (38:41)

This is how I feel about my substack. I'm like, oh, I had this great idea. Now I'm like, who writes?

Nora McInerney (38:46)

Who's going to do this? Me. I do this. Okay? I do this. I read. I, I won't say I read everything, but I am a eclectic reader. I don't pick. I don't read what books are about before I pick them up. I'm literally judging a book on a vibe, on a cover, on if, if I have heard, if I've seen, like a, If I've scrolled through and someone's like, here's what I liked about this book. I don't need to know the plot going in for a novel. I, I just go. I just go right in. I just go right in.

Tracy Thomas (39:18)

I'm a little bit like that. I mean, I sort of have to know because of my stupid job, but a lot of times someone will, like, pitch a book to me, and I'm like, if the first sentence sounds like something I could do, Great. If it' paragraph. I just want to know, like, Michelle is friends with Romy, and they're going to the reunion. I'm like, great. Done.

Nora McInerney (39:35)

Great. That's all I need.

Tracy Thomas (39:36)

Don't tell me more.

Nora McInerney (39:37)

Don't tell me more. I don't want to know more. So I do read.

Tracy Thomas (39:41)

I read.

Nora McInerney (39:42)

I wouldn't say, like, a ton of nonfiction. I don't love instructive nonfiction. Yeah, I do. Like a blend of sort of, like, history or. This is a book that I paid, like, $30 for this book. There was an event at. For this. This book from Harvard Press. Look how tiny this is. Oh, okay.

Tracy Thomas (40:01)

Private.

Nora McInerney (40:02)

This book, Privateers. How Billionaires Created a Culture War and Sold School Vulture. Same thing. School vouchers. There was an event with him at our local bookstore, and I couldn't make it, so I had to buy this book, like, online from Harvard Press for $30. And so these are the kinds of, like, nonfiction books I like. Like, tell me a story. Give. Tell me a story. While also giving me an education on a topic that I did not know I was about to be interested in.

Tracy Thomas (40:30)

Yes, I love. I mean, I love nonfiction, so. But I do. I love an academic book. Sometimes it can be really dry, but if they're well written.

Nora McInerney (40:38)

Yes.

Tracy Thomas (40:38)

I'm like, yes. Teach me the ways of the world. How did we get here? Please answer.

Nora McInerney (40:44)

Yes.

Tracy Thomas (40:46)

What's the last just, like, really great book you've read?

Nora McInerney (40:50)

Okay, the last really, really great one. One where I was talking out loud to myself as I read it and, like, being like, ugh. I was by a pool, which is one of my favorite places to read. Heat of Summer here in Phoenix, Arizona, at a resort, which are the best time to go is in the dead of summer. And I read Slow Dance by Rainbow Rowell.

Tracy Thomas (41:13)

I don't know this. We have very different book tastes. I'm loving this. I feel like you're gonna add to my list every.

Nora McInerney (41:19)

Every book she has written. Like, Landline, Eleanor and Park. I think a lot of her books are somehow, like, cast into ya, even though they're just really beautiful fiction. This is the. It's a maybe, but it's like, I don't want to classify it as a romance because it's not a tropey.

Tracy Thomas (41:39)

Got it.

Nora McInerney (41:39)

Cartoon character cover. I'm not slamming those. That's just not that. That specifically is just not my vibe, you know? Like, I don't really need to, like, read people bangin. I don' something about it. I was like, okay, lol. All right.

Tracy Thomas (41:54)

You're a prude. I read that in your book.

Nora McInerney (41:56)

I really?

Tracy Thomas (41:56)

So am I. Yeah. I'm like, oh, but when I read romance, I only want the sex.

Nora McInerney (42:01)

Oh.

Tracy Thomas (42:01)

I'm like. Like, if I'm gonna read a romance, and it's like, oh. And then they go in the bedroom and close the door. I'm like, no. How was her. How was her heat feeling between her legs?

Nora McInerney (42:14)

She felt him grow hard against his jeans. So I was like, yes. Lol. It's okay. So this is the story of friends from high school. Like, that really kind of intense friendship you can have with a person of either sex, by the way, where it's like. It's so bordering on love that you cannot tell if it is or not. And then they're essentially their reunion. They go back to their high school reunion. It switches points of view, and it also switches time, but she sets it in a time before iPhones, which I really, really like. So they graduated in, like, the 90s. Their reunion is 2006. So it's. There's so much longing, and it. It honestly made me long for the days of longing.

Tracy Thomas (43:16)

I love that. I love that. Yes. Because, like, technology makes it so that it's a lot harder to.

Nora McInerney (43:21)

Yeah. Long.

Tracy Thomas (43:22)

In the same way, like, you don't have to wait as much.

Nora McInerney (43:25)

No, you don't have to wait for an email, which was, you know, even that. It was like, I remember waiting for letters. I remember waiting for emails. I remember, you know, like, anticipation in a way that you just don't have in the same way now, because you really can have so much more access to a person and, like, peek into their lives, even if you've lost touch. So it's just. It was truly such a beautiful, beautiful read. Every time I finish one of her books, I'm like, she better be working on another one. Like, she better be at work right now. I've got no patience for Rainbow Rowell. She better be. I don't want to see her having fun. I don't want her engaging with friends and family. I want her at the computer tapping away, building me a new world.

Tracy Thomas (44:16)

Now get to work, lady.

Nora McInerney (44:18)

Get to work.

Tracy Thomas (44:20)

What are you reading right now?

Nora McInerney (44:22)

Okay. I just finished a book last night called A Better Ending, which is nonfiction. A memoir about this man whose sister died in night in the 1970s. His younger sister. It was reported as a suicide. Her husband was a cop.

Tracy Thomas (44:46)

I know where this is going.

Nora McInerney (44:47)

Yeah. And he picks the story. He basically starts pursuing the story in the early 2000s and just published this book. Will publish, I think, in March. And I really, really did love this book. He's very fair. He's very. He's just like. He's obviously from a different generation. I think he's gotta be like, almost 80 years old now.

Tracy Thomas (45:10)

Oh, sure.

Nora McInerney (45:10)

And so it's almost like a family memoir, too. But it's also just the story of really, really searching for the truth about a sibling when, you know, again, he's like, digging into not only just like the past, but a past that is very easy to hide and to disappear because it's all on paper.

Tracy Thomas (45:33)

Yeah.

Nora McInerney (45:33)

So. And now I just started All Fours last night, which is. I'm the last person on earth to read that one.

Tracy Thomas (45:41)

I haven't read it and I.

Nora McInerney (45:42)

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Yeah. Honestly, I saw Miranda July live when my husband was dying. It was at, you know, at like the Walker Arts center in. In Minneapolis. And she stood on stage for the first 10 minutes and just stared at the audience and no, thank you. I was so angry. I was. I was shaking with rage. I was shaking with rage. I was like, I'll give you something real. I left early and I remember this man, like, grumbling. And I leaned over him and I go, well, my husband's dying. And I hope he remembers that because he was just being such an art snob about it. Like, oh, I just can't learn. Just leave. I was like, I'll. I'll fucking leave right now, dude.

Tracy Thomas (46:22)

I'll leave.

Nora McInerney (46:23)

You think I'm gonna watch this doe eyed deer of a lady just stare at us? I paid 60 bucks for this or whatever. Who knows what I paid? But I was just like, you gotta be joking. This is why people hate art. This is why. Okay, this is. Guess what? When 2016 happens, it's your fault. Everyone in this theater is at fault. Okay? I was. I was not. I was not in my best space. So. So. But I really. She wrote this nonfiction book, Nobody Belongs Here More than you, that I had loved. I loved that book because I am odd in that same way. And then I was. It's like I just realized I've been holding a grudge against Miranda July for getting on stage and staring at us. And then another part of the show is, like, inviting people on stage and like, to pretend like they were in a marketplace. I don't know. I just was like, I don't like art. I don't like this. I'm leaving.

Tracy Thomas (47:16)

No.

Nora McInerney (47:16)

So, yeah, so that's. I'm starting that. And then I am also. I'm really I'm gonna give this book. I'm gonna give that book, like, 20 pages, and if I'm not into it, I'm out. Because I have the new Elizabeth Strout book, and I would read anything by Elizabeth Strout. I want to live in her L.L. bean catalog world. Her. I really do. There's something about her. There is something about her.

Tracy Thomas (47:45)

I love this. Okay. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Nora McInerney (47:49)

I. My favorite bookstore is whatever bookstore I'm in, but in the Twin Cities, it's sub. Subtext. A bookstore. It's this itty Bitty Bookstore in St. Paul. I love them. I love the people there. It's cozy. It's not a place, you know, they might have, like, one little couch or like a couple chairs or something, but it's really just like this little nook. It's like a little book nook. And if I'm on. If I'm in Minneapolis, it's Majors and Quinn. They have a great, like, also selection of, like, rare old books. So my dad loved it there also. And in Phoenix, it's changing hands bookstore. But if I'm going to a new city, I will find a small bookstore and I will. I will purchase books. Because nothing fits in your suitcase more than several books.

Tracy Thomas (48:44)

That's exactly right. Well, I use them to push down all of my clothes that I didn't need to pack. I'm like, oh, this is actually a useful tool, these books that I didn't need to buy.

Nora McInerney (48:55)

Compression packing. That's so smart. So smart.

Tracy Thomas (48:58)

Exactly. Yeah. Well, I am very smart. Yeah, obviously. What's the last book that made you cry?

Nora McInerney (49:04)

Oh, okay. It's. It is Ask not the True Story of the Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed.

Tracy Thomas (49:13)

Oh, my God. I just added that book to my list yesterday. Oh.

Nora McInerney (49:18)

Oh, man. It is. It also. I was. I was talking out loud to myself the whole time. I was like, oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. So it. It filled me with rage. It. It, it. I cried numerous times, but especially because I really did hold up, you know, Jackie Kennedy in my early widowhood. I was like, God, it's too bad Aaron didn't have a Jackie Kennedy there, right? Someone who could just hold it together. Somebody who could, you know, look good, do the part. Keep. Keep her s H I T together. You know what? She didn't. She didn't. Guys. She didn't. She. She really had a hard go of it. And so many women in that orbit did so justice for all of them. And, oh, when you find out when you find out what really happened.

Tracy Thomas (50:13)

Okay. I can't wait. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm gonna read that, like, starting today.

Nora McInerney (50:22)

When you find out how Mary Joe Capechny really died. Oh, yeah. You Ted Kennedy. It's not over. Yeah, it's not over, buddy. It's not over, because guess what? I am about to pull a Kim Kardashian. I'm going to law school.

Tracy Thomas (50:37)

It.

Nora McInerney (50:38)

Or I'm gonna be a lawyer. I'm gonna declare myself a lawyer, and I will figure it out, and I will. I will find justice. Ed with. Oh, there's so many. It's a. It's a rager. That. That book is a rager.

Tracy Thomas (50:51)

Okay. I might have to squeeze this in before the end of the year.

Nora McInerney (50:54)

You have to.

Tracy Thomas (50:54)

I'm like. I'm in this phase right now where I'm, like, trying to squeeze in my last few reads of the year before I, like, move on to 2025.

Nora McInerney (51:01)

Yes.

Tracy Thomas (51:01)

But then I always feel like I hear about a few books at the end of the year when these lists start coming out, and I'm like, fuck, I gotta squeeze it in.

Nora McInerney (51:07)

Yeah, okay.

Tracy Thomas (51:07)

Yeah, that one's happening. Okay. Are there any books that you're embarrassed about? Like, loving?

Nora McInerney (51:13)

Oh, about loving. No. I literally. You cannot shame me for liking a book or liking anything, really. Those days have kind of have passed for me. I like what I like, and I don't really need to justify it. I am embarrassed that I did listen to the Secret on audiobook, and I was like, okay, yeah, this is making some good points. And really, the secret was, you're depressed. Go see a therapist. That's the secret. That's the secret. You need an antidepressant. You need to break up with this boyfriend. You need to. It's. It's. It's not. You don't need to write things down in a journal. You literally are clinically depressed right now. That is what you are experiencing. Okay?

Tracy Thomas (52:00)

It's.

Nora McInerney (52:00)

You didn't ask the universe for depression, you silly little creature. And I would listen to that book, walking to the subway station to go to a job that I hated made me depressed and be like, yeah, you know, I don't know what I'm asking the universe for, but I brought this on myself. I brought this on myself. That is one. But really, I just look back and I'm like, oh, you just didn't know. You just didn't know. You just didn't know. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (52:25)

Are there any books that you're embarrassed about never having read?

Nora McInerney (52:29)

So every When I see a list like the New York Times, like, 100 books you have to read, and I find myself scrolling to check off one that I've read, and it's a long scroll. My mom. My mom printed that list for me, and I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Four. Four. I've got four of these. I've got four of these. Yeah. Or there's books where I'm like, is this good? Or did we all just kind of like. Like, what's. Like, what's going on here? You know? Like, there's.

Tracy Thomas (53:02)

There's a lot of those.

Nora McInerney (53:03)

Yeah, there's a lot of books like that where I'm like, what? That's how I felt for probably the first 400 pages of my Brilliant Friend.

Tracy Thomas (53:13)

I never read it.

Nora McInerney (53:14)

I was like, what? What. What?

Tracy Thomas (53:18)

Did you come around to it?

Nora McInerney (53:19)

Did you end up at the end? I did. What I really did, like, about that book was it somehow captured that. And sometimes I think books in translation, too, were like, wow, this is so genius. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And it's like. I don't know. I think it's just.

Tracy Thomas (53:33)

Just.

Nora McInerney (53:33)

It's just words describing a thing, but that's what taste is, too. It's just so interesting to me, because there are books that I've loved that people find horrible, and they're books that other people have loved that I'm like, what are you talking about? But I. I did come. I did come around to it because there was something about the way that it captures, like, that. That. That truly romantic love between young girls who. When you have a friend like that, when you are so young, it is a depth of love that no life partner is ever going to be able to talk.

Tracy Thomas (54:12)

Right. Right.

Nora McInerney (54:13)

Like, they just know you. See you, get you. And, like, that sort of fascination, too. Like, when you're watching, like, another girl from afar, and you're like, do I. Am I in love with her, or do I want to be her? I don't know.

Tracy Thomas (54:28)

Right.

Nora McInerney (54:29)

Like, that's. That's what that book did, just, like, so beautifully.

Tracy Thomas (54:32)

I feel like that's sort of like our friendship. A depth of love that no one could ever comprehend.

Nora McInerney (54:40)

I hope people understand that.

Tracy Thomas (54:42)

Yeah. If you don't go read My Brilliant Friend, because it was written about Nora and I.

Nora McInerney (54:47)

It's one of the best.

Tracy Thomas (54:48)

The number one most important book ever written, according to the New York Times, was written on our friendship. So you're welcome, Elena Ferrante, whoever you are.

Nora McInerney (54:56)

Whoever you are. And, by the way, no one knows who that is.

Tracy Thomas (54:59)

Is no one knows who that is. And honestly, I never want to find out.

Nora McInerney (55:03)

I don't either.

Tracy Thomas (55:04)

It would be such a horrible, horrible moment in history if some journalists go stick in their nose in Elena Ferrante's business, and we have to find out that it's some man in Chicago who could speak Italian or whatever the writing about young girls.

Nora McInerney (55:23)

If you're a journalist. Shut up, okay?

Tracy Thomas (55:27)

There is other work to be done.

Nora McInerney (55:29)

There's other. Go rip the lid off literally anything else. But if I find out that someone is trying to, you know, solve this mystery, I will disapprove. And you will have to live with.

Tracy Thomas (55:41)

I will find you.

Nora McInerney (55:42)

Yeah. I will find you, and I will say. I will say, stop. Don't do that.

Tracy Thomas (55:45)

I will delete your hard drive. Okay.

Nora McInerney (55:46)

Yeah. When I. When I figure out how to do that. Oh, I will.

Tracy Thomas (55:53)

Do you have any, like, favorite books that you were assigned in school?

Nora McInerney (56:00)

Oh, there are so many. I had really, really, really good English teachers.

Tracy Thomas (56:09)

Oh, you did?

Nora McInerney (56:10)

I did. I just. The best English teachers. And I mean, in high school, maybe it was, like, ninth grade English, we read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe. And I just remember, like. And then somebody told me that was, like, controversial, and I was like, what? And. And we read. We read, like, Invisible man in. In, like, ninth grade English, and we read Catcher in the Rye, which, you know, I know some people really, really hate that book. And I hate that. That book was like. I was like, oh. But I still didn't, Like, I didn't pick up on, like. Like, oh, this is like, a depressed person.

Tracy Thomas (56:48)

Yeah.

Nora McInerney (56:49)

Like, and I don't even really. I don't remember even anything about the plot of that book other than just feeling like, oh, like, this is how I feel inside sometimes, you know?

Tracy Thomas (57:02)

Yeah. Okay. If you could assign, like, if you were a high school teacher, English teacher, what's a book you would assign to your students?

Nora McInerney (57:09)

Oh, God. I would assign. That. I would assign them, like, more memoir because. And I. And I wish. And I've read that, like, that was one of the. This was one of the ones that I just wrote question mark on. When you sent me these in advance, I was, like, dreading this one because I'm like, oh, God. Oh, God. But I. I wish that I had read more memoir when I was younger because I. And more, like, small, ordinary memoir, because I didn't know that you could just, like, write a book about your life unless it was something, like, truly, like, remarkable and spectacular. And there are so many, like, my favorite Memoirs are ones where it's just like. Just like a regular person's life, you know? Right.

Tracy Thomas (57:57)

Yeah, no, totally. I love. I mean, yes. Okay. I have two more. One is. What are some of your favorite books about? Grief?

Nora McInerney (58:07)

Oh, okay. I love. I love Pema Children. And there. And. And I. I. When I was in grief, there's not a single grief book that I would have read. There just wasn't. You know, I'm like, sorry, I'm already there. I don't need this right now. But after, like, you know, sort of like the abject, the. The. The acute part of grief, I found a lot of comfort in when. When Things Fall Apart by Pema Children. And it's not even necessarily about. It's not about death. Right. It is about change. And what I like about her writing is it doesn't feel sanctimonious because she is just like, a regular lady who became, like, a Buddhist monk. And the pettiness is on the page. Like, she talks about her husband leaving her and her just, like, throwing rocks at him. Like, just pelting him with rocks, you know? And I'm like, yeah, that's. That's how I want. That's how I want my wisdom. That's who I want my wisdom from. Right. Is a person who, when confronted with the end of her marriage, would pick up a rock and hurl it at a man. That's who I want my wisdom from. And I really love the book. Grief Strike by Jason Roeder. He wrote the Onion headline, no way to prevent this. Says, only country where this happens. He's so funny. And he wrote this, like, satirical grief book after his mom died. And I read it on a plane, and I had church giggles, like, just like. Like trying not to laugh, which just makes it worse.

Tracy Thomas (59:47)

Yes.

Nora McInerney (59:48)

It was so funny. It's so absurd and witty and clever, and I just loved it. And. Okay. Oh, God. Also, there's this book. It's a memoir. This is memoir plus. Oh, my God. It's all coming full circle.

Tracy Thomas (60:05)

Okay, Leah, this is for you. Listen up.

Nora McInerney (60:07)

It's called. Did I Ever Tell You? It's a memoir of this woman whose mom died when she was a kid and who left her letters for her to read throughout her life. Oh, it's like. It's a weeper, but it's really. It's just beautiful. It's so good. It's so good.

Tracy Thomas (60:30)

Okay, wow. Okay, last one. If you could require the current. Current president of the United States, Joseph Robinette Biden, to read one book, what would it be.

Nora McInerney (60:42)

I. I'm not confident that he could. He could do that right now.

Tracy Thomas (60:49)

Okay. Okay. I'm so sad that this question has to go back to Trump. When I started the podcast, it was Trump, and I used to get the most asinine answers, and I was so happy.

Nora McInerney (60:59)

God.

Tracy Thomas (61:01)

And on the night of the election, you know what Turned to my husband and I.

Nora McInerney (61:05)

You're like, I don't want.

Tracy Thomas (61:06)

I can't believe I have to ask this about Trump. And he goes, well, you could just stop asking the question. I said, I will not let that man change my show.

Nora McInerney (61:13)

Don't. Don't. Okay, I will. Okay. Actually, I would have him read Ask. Not because I want. I want to hear because he knows some of these people. He knows some of these.

Tracy Thomas (61:23)

Him and Teddy were. Him and Teddy were great friends.

Nora McInerney (61:26)

Yeah. I want him to read that book, and I want to watch him do it.

Tracy Thomas (61:30)

That's such a good answer. Okay, party people, we're done. We've. We've been droning on. Unfortunately for you, Nora's back at the end of the month.

Nora McInerney (61:41)

Too bad, guys.

Tracy Thomas (61:42)

Yeah. And we are gonna do book club. And what's hilarious about this is we actually haven't picked the book club pick while we're recording. So we're gonn. And you'll know it when you hear this episode, but we don't know it right now, so.

Nora McInerney (61:54)

We don't know it.

Tracy Thomas (61:55)

We don't know it. But I will link to all of Nora's books and where you can find her and her shows and everything in the show notes. Nora, my best friend. Thank you so much for doing this.

Nora McInerney (62:06)

Oh, my God. I'm gonna text you right after this so we can talk some more shit, too.

Tracy Thomas (62:11)

Literally. Can't wait. Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

Nora McInerney (62:16)

Bye.

Tracy Thomas (62:21)

All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Nora McInerney for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Pete Forrester for making this episode possible. Don't forget this Dax Book club pick for December is tacky. Love Letters to the Worst Culture we have to Offer by Rax King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25th with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And subscribe to my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram Threads and Tick Tock, and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.