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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay y'all, it's the holiday season, which likely means you've got a lot on your plate and I have something that can help you make your life a little easier and it isn't what you're thinking. It is Miracle Made Sheets. How can she help in this crazy time of life, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways. 1. They have thermoregulating technology inspired by NASA that helps you to stay cool and comfortable all night long. That means better sleep. 2. The silver infused fabrics prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresher three times longer. That means you're doing less chores, changing and washing your sheets. 3. Less bacteria. That also means clearer, cleaner skin, less acne. And four these sheets make an incredible gift. You're giving the luxury hotel sheet experience without the luxury price tag. So now Miracle Made has helped you have more sleep, less laundry, cleaner skin and checked off a gift to give to that difficult person on your list. Go to try miracle.com the stacks to try Miracle Made sheets today and whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today you can save over 40% and if you use our promo code the Stacks at checkout you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product it is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee so if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle made, go to Try Miracle.com the Stacks and use the code the Stacks to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's Try Miracle.com the Stacks to treat yourself. Thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am honored to welcome to the show Mosab Abu Toha. Mosab is an internationally acclaimed poet and the founder of the Edward Said Library, Gaza's first English language library. His most recent poetry collection came out earlier this year. It's called Forest of Noise and it offers a lyrical and deeply personal exploration in life in Gaza. Today, Mosab and I talk about his experiences as he left Gaza a year ago. We talk about the ongoing genocide and we talk about his work in documenting the stories of his people. Remember, our book club pick for December is tacky by Rax King. Nora McInerney will be back on Wednesday, December 25th to discuss the book with me. So be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, plus a handful of seasonal perks, now is your time to join the Stacks pack. Go to patreon.com the stacks for just $5 a month, you get access to all of our year long goings on, like our Discord, our virtual book club bonus episodes. But right now, when you join, you can vote in our annual literary awards. We call them the Stackies. If you join before the end of January, you will get access to my amazing reading spreadsheet tracker that I obsessed with. Also, the Mega Challenge is coming out later in December. You get that too. So now is definitely the time to join the Stacks Pack. On top of that, you can actually gift access to the Stacks Pack now. Finally, Patreon got their act together. If you go to patreon.com the stacks gift, you can give access to this community to anyone in your life. It's a win, win, win. You win because you get to give an amazing gift. They win because they get the gift and I win because I get to keep making this podcast. So go to patreon.com the stacks join. Sign up your book bestie. Everybody wins. Another fun perk. If you join the Stacks Pack, you get a shout out on the show. So thank you so much to Megan Bogdan, Chelsea, Ray Abate, Sherry D, Meg and Maggie Bowling. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who are less interested in joining the community, but maybe want some of those perks, maybe don't want all of that stuff. You can go to my newsletter, find out what I'm up to. Get some hot takes from me on books and pop culture. Like all of my thoughts on Wicked. Go to Tracy thomas.substack.com and subscribe to my newsletter unstacked. It'll go directly to your email inbox. And now it is time for my conversation with Mosab Abu To. All right, everybody, I am so excited. Today I am joined by a poet. And it's not even poetry month, so that's how you know this collection is really, really good. I'm joined by Mosab Abu Toha, whose new collection, Forest of Noise is. It's a stunner. Mosab, welcome to the Stacks.
- [04:57]
Mosab Abu Toha
Thank you, Tracy. I'm happy to be with you.
- [05:00]
Tracy Thomas
I'm so happy to talk with you. Okay, let's start where we always start in about 30 seconds or so. Can you just generally give folks a sense of what's in this book?
- [05:09]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. In these books are poems that were written before the start of the genocide and after the start of the genocide. Poems that talk about people who did not survive, people who did survive while I was writing about them, but who are no longer with us. Poems that keep happening. Poems about airstrikes, the massacring of families, the massacring of people who are sheltering in schools. And also poetry about my grandparents who were expelled from their city in 1948 and who died in the refugee camp.
- [05:42]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, as people are listening to explain that this. This collection really does have such a wide variety of poems. It's almost like a memoir in poems. I don't know. Does that resonate with you at all?
- [05:57]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, I believe it could be called.
- [06:00]
Tracy Thomas
So, yeah. Okay. Because some poets, you know, they get really uptight. They're like, these are poems. This isn't a memoir. Like, these are things I've created. But in my sense of reading it and the research that I did on you, I was like, yeah, this feels like things that happened in his life.
- [06:15]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, well, these poems are about things that happened, but the thing is that they keep happening. So you can. You can call them. You can call some of them part of a memoir inverse about some of my life aspect as a child in the refugee camp, or someone who survived different wars, different airstrikes with his wife and kids, but also things that keep happening to his neighbors, his friends, his. So every. Every day, Every day, there is something that happens that I wish I included in the book because. But this is. This is an ongoing genocide.
- [06:53]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, I think for folks who aren't familiar with your story, you are Palestinian. Obviously, we covered that. But in. After the events that started and the bombings and everything From Israel in 2023, you and your family came, you guys left, you guys, you know, went. Tried to go to Egypt. You were detained. It was a whole rigmarole. You come to the United States on, like, a fellowship to, you know, as a. As a writer in danger, all of these things. But through all of this, Mosab, you're writing poems. Like, what was the urge for you when? Like. Because, like, let me be honest, when something bad happens in my life, I'm like, okay, I need a break. Like, I just can't imagine that you're writing all these incredible poems as you're living all of this horrible stuff and. And your neighbors and your family and your countrymen. Like, so what was compelling you to keep writing when you could have easily not written, and no one would have said, ugh, Mosab, what a quitter. You know, like, everyone would have understood. So I'm wondering what it is in you that made you keep going.
- [08:05]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, first of all, it is a human urge to share the trauma, the pain that I see that I witness every day. I mean, as I said, Tracy, it's not something I'm not writing about, something that happened and that I'm still traumatized as a result of, but it's something that keeps happening. I'm watching even after I left Gaza in December last year. So Today is the December 3rd, and it's the day when I entered Egypt after I left Gaza on December 2nd. So these poems were not written about things that came to an end. I hope that was the case, but they continue to happen, and unfortunately, there is no sign that they will end soon. And whether I was still in Gaza or while I am outside of Gaza, whether in Egypt or now in the United States, there is not a single day which passed without me witnessing the massacring of my people. So I can tell you that three days ago, my aunt's husband was found killed in Gaza. He was 82 years old. He went missing early November. And three days ago, his son, my cousin, posted that he found his father who was killed. And then I talked to my cousin. I wanted to just talk to him about how he found his father, because it's even dangerous to look for people who go missing. And he told me that I hung his photos in the street and I left my phone number. If anyone saw this guy, please call me. And then someone called him and he told him, I think I saw someone who looks like your father, and he had a similar beard. So he said, okay. He said, you are risking your life if you go to that area. And my cousin went to that area, and you know what he found? He found his father's head. That was the only thing he found. And he put it in a plastic bag and he went back and he buried his father, which was ahead. So every day there is something like this. And I can't just sit like this and think about this only. But I have to share how I feel as I see and I witness these things even from 5,000 miles away.
- [10:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Do you ever feel, in doing that, witnessing and sharing these stories with us, like through your art, through. Do you ever feel like it's too much for you?
- [10:29]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, I mean, it could be too much for an artist to write about these things. But it's not. It's nothing compared to what real people are facing every day. Sure, it's even. I mean, the feelings that I have are not more devastating than the feelings that a father in Gaza right now is struggling. How is how a father or a mother are struggling to find bread for their kids, to find water, to find clothes for their children. Now it's winter. I'm now in upstate, in New York, and I have everything I need. I have blankets, I have clothes, I have gloves. But, I mean, in Gaza, it's very cold right now, and people left their houses. Not only did they leave their houses, but their houses were bombed. And we see videos every day coming from Jabalia camp. I posted today a photo of how the Jabali refugee camp looked like before Israel invaded it three months ago and how it looked like today. And the people who post these things are soldiers. They want to show us, you know, you see, what we can do. And not only did these people, like my family, not only did they leave their house, but their houses were bombed. And even when they left the houses, they couldn't carry many things with them. So they are left to live in a tent, just like my two sisters with their children or my wife's family who are living in tents right now, and they spent a day, you know, looking for someone to lend them a mattress or a blanket.
- [11:50]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [11:50]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I can't compare the kind of things that I'm doing. I'm doing my part as an artist to witness and invite other people to witness the life that not only I lived, but my people are still living and God knows until when.
- [12:06]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, this might be a kind of a hard question, because I don't understand how poets make poems, but how do you take all of this that has happened, that is happening, that, you know, is going on within your own family, things that you've witnessed of. Of, you know, the. Your people. And how do you distill it down to these poems? Like, some of these poems are so short and so good and so resonant. And so when you're looking and taking in all of this, right, like you said, it's happening right now, but also, like you said, your grandparents from 1948, and it goes way before that. And you found ways to write these poems that work and feel accessible to readers. So what are you. What are you thinking about? How are you thinking about writing poems? And I think that's a hard question maybe, because I think if you're a poet, it just happens in some ways. But I I also know that you're super smart, so I know you are. Think about it, too.
- [13:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
Okay? People maybe describe me as a smart person, but you call me a super smart person.
- [13:17]
Tracy Thomas
Super smart, yes. Get that. Super.
- [13:22]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, the thing, Tracy, is that when you started talking to me about this, you mentioned that, you know, Israel started bombing people in October 2023. But the fact is that we have been bombed for years and years. I myself remember exactly what happened in January 2009 when I was wounded in an airstrike. I was 16 years old. I got two pieces of shrapnel in my body, and they remained in my body for eight months. And even though these two pieces of shrapnel that the doctors extracted from my body, I kept them in my house until it was bombed. Until our house was bombed in October last year. And then in 2012, then 2014, for 51 days, it killed three of my friends, you know, along with about 1,400 people, etc. So this is. This is a continuous nightmare for us. You know, it was a traumatizing experience. Our house was partially damaged. My alma mater was bombed just about the time when I was going to graduate. And then there was the May 2021 attacks. And that was the first time in my life that I went through an Israeli war as a father. So the accumulation of these experiences. You know, the poem came to me. I didn't go to the poem. I did not sit and said, okay, I want to write a poem about this. No, I just had this amount of grief, this amount of pain, this amount of trauma that I found myself trying to understand what's happening with me as a human being. Sometimes I write something because I found out that I misunderstood something. I misunderstood a photo that I saw or a video of a child. I thought so. For example, one time I was sitting and watching with my wife a video, and I saw a small boy, maybe 8 years old, and his shoulder was severed and one armrest was cut very, very horrifically. And I thought, you. You look, Maram. My wife's name is Maram. So I said, look, Maram, the boy is brave. I mean, he's not crying, even though he doesn't have any family member with him. And I thought. And then later I found that the boy was. Was dead. So I was. I was deceived, you know, and I tried to. So I found out that I did not really understand what was happening. So I was shocked to realize that this was not the case. So I wrote a poem about that. The moment of realization there is another one, the photo, the video of a young man carrying the dead body of a girl. And I wrote about this in my book Forest of Noise, that a young boy was carrying the dead body of a younger girl and he was running in the hospital. But I mean, why would someone run with the body of a dead girl? What is the point here? And then I thought that because people started to run after him, I thought that these people, because these are living people, they were giving some kind of life to this girl because these living people could. Yeah, you know, so you are, you are, you are alive for a moment when living people run after you. Yeah, so I, So I was trying to understand these things. These are very traumatizing experiences and I was trying, you know, to write about these, to try and understand the trauma that I have to even to also share some of the things that people don't have access to. Not only did Israel, as I said this a million times, not only did Israel cut off electricity, water, fuel, medicine, not only did they block the entry of international journalists, but they also cut off the Internet and also phone signal. So people outside don't have access, not only to news because there are just lots, lots of pieces of news that we cannot even report on, but also people haven't been able to experience these things firsthand. And because, you know, Gaza has been under war, Palestine has been under occupation for 76 years. People don't have any knowledge of what it means to live under military occupation, what it means to be killed with your wife and kids, what it means to be, even to. To. To. To remain under the rubble. This happened for, To. To at least three of my friends to have their bodies under the rubble for about a year. So people don't, Don't. Can't imagine, you know, can't imagine. It's impossible for anyone who hasn't been in Gaza to imagine what, how it feels to be under the rubble for about a year.
- [18:06]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [18:07]
Mosab Abu Toha
So through poetry, I hope to, To. To bring people to experience some of why, what I experienced, what my people are still experiencing.
- [18:18]
Tracy Thomas
How are you, how were you thinking about audience for this book? How are you thinking about who your readers were and what were you trying to do to them? And I guess a sort of additional question is, does. Do you think about the audience for the entire book or do you think about audience per poem?
- [18:38]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, I mean, my audiences are anyone who want to have a real lens, you know, a real view of what's happening, not of what's happening, but what, what has been happening in Palestine. What has been happening in Gaza for the past four now 15, I would be. I would say 15 months. And also the book intends to make people feel before they start to try and understand what's happening. Because some people would say, you know, you know, it's complex, it's complicated. I don't know, I don't understand. Well, you know what? It's not important that you understand what is happening or why it is happening. At least have some kind of feeling, a human feeling, just to try and understand how I feel, how I have been feeling, how a mother or a father is feeling when they see their children, you know, waiting for a crumb of bread or maybe 1 millimeter of water to drink. So this book is intended to anyone who wants to try and let their humanity work to test their humanity, just read the book and see the kind of life that we have been leading, the kind of experiences that we are re experiencing on a daily basis.
- [20:06]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [20:07]
Mosab Abu Toha
And then after you feel and you see that this is horrible, this is terroristic, even then you try to understand why it's happening, how long it has been going on for.
- [20:18]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. So. So there's part of you that hopes that this is maybe like some people's entry point into sort of getting a sense of what if, what it is like to live in Gaza or Palestine now in the last 15 months, in the last six years.
- [20:33]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think this is true of any artist, any writer, you know, I mean, part of me writes the poems because it is a personal experience, which is also a collective experience. I, I write, I document because I want everyone, not only who are people who are living right now in this decade or next decade, but also for history. You know, when we read works by Jewish writers about what happened during the Holocaust, we learn and we are shocked by what the Nazis have been doing. And we read this after about 80 years after it happened, you know, and we are shocked. But now we are reading something that is happening right now, which is more shocking to me.
- [21:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:16]
Mosab Abu Toha
Which is more shocking because we are reporting on it on the spot. People are filming what's happening. You know, journalists who are just opening their cameras and run in the street to show the world what's happening. Whenever an American president say that Israel has the right to defend itself. Give me one time. This is a question to anyone. Give me one time. When any official from this country, the United States, or even from Europe. Give me one time. When they said that the Palestinian people have the right to something. Yeah, one time. One example when they said the Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves. I want to hear from anyone an answer to this question. Do the Palestinian people now who are living in the Gaza Strip, whose houses are being destroyed or whose parents or whose children are being massacred, do they have any kind of right to defend themselves against the Israeli soldiers who have been attacking Gaza for 15 months? And the Palestinians in the west bank whose land, whose houses are being bombed every day and stolen? Do they have any right even to resist, to fight, to push back against the Israeli forces or the settlers? You know, this is a basic question. I mean, do we have any right even to defend ourselves when we are attacked? You know, I mean, defending yourself is a human right. I mean, if a dog attacks me, I would defend myself. If a stone attacks me, I would fight the stone. If a tree jumps, you know, onto my bed to kill me, I would resist.
- [22:48]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [22:48]
Mosab Abu Toha
If my brother, if my brother attacks me, I would resist.
- [22:51]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [22:52]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know, so why do I, do the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves? Especially now when they are doing. We are being genocided on a daily basis. Yeah, just, just, just forget about the Nakba of 1948. Just forget about the occupation. Let's talk about these months, these 14 months, 15 months. We have no, any, we have, we don't have any single right even to do anything, you know, and we don't have any kind of support, any protection from the international community who never stopped fueling this genocide by sending more and more weapons. And we see what these, what these bombs, what these weapons are doing to children, beheaded children, burnt people in tents to which they had to evacuate after they left their houses. And we saw the video of Shaban Al Dalu, you know, so what is one thing that the Palestinian people failed to do to tell the, to show the whole world that this has been going on right, for decades. This is not a new thing that's happening in Gaza, but now it's being documented more and more. Yeah, this is the difference between now and before.
- [23:58]
Tracy Thomas
Gosh, I have so many follow up questions to what you just said. Okay, first, yes, you're, you're correct. Second, because of the work that you're doing to sort of document what's going on in, in about as real time as you can with a book. But you, you do it in your social media. You do it, you know, you, you're doing it in real time also. But when I think about like this book, you know, it just can't come out tomorrow. That's just not how books work. They're a little slow on the uptake. But when you're thinking about sort of being the person who documents these moments in history for people outside of the experience, what sort of responsibility do you feel to make sure that you. That you're getting it right? Is that something that you're even thinking about? Or are you just thinking, this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm going to show? Or do you try to sort of, like, put context on it for your, for your audience? Are you thinking at all about sort of making sure that what you're putting out into the world is as resonant as possible, I guess.
- [25:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, I mean, the things that I share on my social media, that I, that I talk about, when I'm talking to media with a radio or tv, I'm presenting some of the examples of what has been happening in the past few days. So I show what I saw. I translate in words what I saw in a video or in a picture. I give the context that what's happening right now in Gaza is not a genocide against Palestinian people, but it is a genocide against refugees. 70% of the population in Gaza are refugees whose right to return to their houses is guaranteed by international law by the United Nations. You know, There is Resolution 194 that the Palestinian people who were expelled from their houses in 1948 have the right to return to their houses that they were expelled from. This is a right that my grandparents who died in the refugee camp had the right to do, and they couldn't do it. My father should do it. Me, I should do it. My son should do it. So Israel is genociding not only Palestinian people, not only human beings, but also, worse than that, they are killing refugees whose lives whose right to return should be implemented by the world community. So I'm just, you know, sharing these things. I'm. When I list the names of people who were killed in an airstrike, I show that this is not. Again, this is not a massacre against individuals. This is a massacre against a whole family in an airstrike. November last year, my friend Ismail Abu Ghabin was killed in Nusayrat in southern Gaza. He was living in northern Gaza. He had to evacuate based on the Israeli orders, evacuation orders. He left for Al Nusayrat camp in southern Gaza. November last year. He was killed with his father, with his mother, with his two children. His wife survived. He was also killed with his three sisters. Two of them only survived, but another three sisters will kill now. The body of Ismail, his Father and his sister Ikram, 15 years old, are still buried under the rubble since last November. And I wrote a poem about that in my book, which is called Right or Left, about the girl whose body remained under the rubble for days and days. And then when we remove the rubble, we only find one small bone. It is a bone from her arm. But which arm is it? The right or the left arm? We don't know. It doesn't matter because we don't have any fingers even to see, you know. So I'm not only writing about what happened, but also what happened after what happened or even sometimes what was happening before the airstrike. I show the insides of the family houses before the houses were bombed on tops of the people who were living inside. And yeah, the responses that I expected from people is to put themselves in the places of these Palestinian families. What if I was born in New York City or in Chicago, and you or someone else who was living in Chicago or New York City were born in Gaza and we, the people, which is the virtual me, is looking and watching the videos of what's happening to you and your students and your families? What do you expect? What do you want from me to do? If I were in your place and you were in my place, what do you expect me to do? So this is a question that everyone should be thinking about.
- [28:29]
Tracy Thomas
Right? Right. You're a poet, you're a writer, you care about words. I know this to be true. And as you were talking about the right. Who has the right to do what? What rights do Palestinians have? I was thinking a little bit about sort of like rhetoric and political rhetoric and the way that words are so. I mean, so powerful. I mean, they, they can shape how we understand a people, a conflict, a place. I mean, just the way that the word genocide has become so contentious, when that's clearly what's happening, is, you know, it. It's enough to make you think that you're going crazy, right? Like when all of a sudden a word that means something doesn't mean anything because of the way that words and, and. And rhetoric have shifted. So I'm wondering if you are thinking about that as well as when. When you're writing your poems and you're going on media and you're talking about these things, how are you thinking about using words to sort of combat some of the rhetoric that is trying to erase Palestinians or erase the rights of Palestinians or the understanding of what's happening?
- [29:49]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know, when I write poetry, I don't use explicit words. For example, you Know, or big terms like genocide or holocaust or. Right, or, you know, a massacre or scolicistide, whatever the word is, bombing schools and universities in Gaza. So I don't, I don't, I don't use terms, you know, I just show the picture to the people and they should decide what kind of war crime this is, you know, So I don't care about the words, even whether you can call it 100 times genocide. But the question is, this is a human question. Do we really have to wait until it is a complete genocide? According to your understanding of the word genocide, you have to wait until it is a complete genocide in order to step in and say, oh, this is now a genocide. After half of the population or a quarter of the population in Gaza are killed. Oh, it is a genocide. Okay, and then what do you do? Right, so it's, I, I, I liken this to a fire that is raging in your house and then your neighbor comes and say, oh, this is not a big fire. You know, you don't have to call the fire truck. It's not yet a big fire. Okay, just let's wait until it is a big fire. And then, oh, call the, the fire trucks. And then on the way, the fire trucks are blocked by maybe traffic or something, and then the whole house is down. Yeah, this is what's happening. I mean, some people say, oh, it's not a genocide. Like the old man who was sitting opposite me on the train when I was in Paris two weeks ago. And when I told him that I'm from Gaza, he asked me, where do you come from? And I told him, I'm from Gaza. I told him I left Gaza two months after the start of the genocide. Oh, it's not a genocide. So I told him, okay, give me one word. This is a question to everyone. Give me one word that describes what Israel is doing in Gaza right now. Give me one word and I will tell you what's happening in Gaza. The destruction of about 70% of the infrastructure in Gaza. The killing of about, according to Lancet Journal, Medical journal in the UK of about 200,000 people. Whether it's by airstrikes, by bullets, by starvation, but also by the lack of medicine, lack of medical care in Gaza. My grandfather, the last grandfather I had passed away in April this year because there was no doctor. He was 71 years old. He was the last grandfather I had. And there was no doctor. There was no phone signal. There were no ambulances in the refugee camp. And he just passed away. And how did he pass away Because Israel is blocking the entry of anything.
- [32:32]
Tracy Thomas
Right?
- [32:33]
Mosab Abu Toha
So the death and killing of about 200,000 people, is this not enough to call it a genocide? The destruction of 70% of Gaza, the killing of about 45,000 people through airstrikes and tank shelling, this is not a genocide. The blocking of all international journalists from entering into Gaza. What is Israel hiding?
- [32:59]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [33:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know, and we talk about starvation. Why. Why on earth does Israel even have the capacity or even the power to look and decide how many trucks enter it? Why do they say Hamas steal it? I mean, let's say Hamas steals the food truck. Why on earth do you. Do you manage or control how many food trucks enter into Gaza?
- [33:20]
Tracy Thomas
That's right.
- [33:21]
Mosab Abu Toha
This is siege. This is genocide.
- [33:23]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [33:25]
Mosab Abu Toha
And even Israel. Even Israel has the right to decide how many food trucks enter into Gaza. How. What kind of chocolate enter into Gaza, what kind of fruit, what kind of vegetable, what kind of meat. On the other hand, nowhere is it checking what kind of things are entering into Israel, what kind of bombs are entering into Israel.
- [33:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:45]
Mosab Abu Toha
This is a human question. I'm just. Let's say I'm not Palestinian. I'm just looking at what's happening. Why does Israel control what enters into Gaza? How many. And no one is on the other side, controls or even police, what kind of weapons that are entering into Gaza? And we know what is entering into Gaza, but no one is there. Okay, this is enough today for you. Let's wait until tomorrow or until next week. So this is a human question. Why is this happening like this? Yeah, but because it is a genocide. Everything the perpetrator, the occupier can do, it is a genocide. They can do anything.
- [34:20]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters, selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the stacks, merch. And it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly, and I basically never think about. What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go, and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com thestack all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all. I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon this is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long bonus episodes, access to the Discord community which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com thestacks Find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community.
- [36:55]
Mosab Abu Toha
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- [36:57]
Tracy Thomas
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- [37:09]
Mosab Abu Toha
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- [37:11]
Tracy Thomas
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- [37:13]
Mosab Abu Toha
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- [37:17]
Tracy Thomas
Next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due. All right, we're back. I want to shift a little Bit and talk a little bit about your process as a writer. A question that I ask all the writers who come on this show is how do you write? How many hours a day? How often do you have snacks and beverages? Do you have rituals around your writing? What are you writing on? Paper, computer, your phone? Can you sort of set the scene for how you write?
- [37:54]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, well, I don't write on a regular basis. I think the last time I wrote a poem, it was maybe two weeks ago. And before two weeks ago, maybe the last time I wrote a poem before that it was a month before that. So I'm not writing on a regular basis, but I sometimes take notes. You know, something that sparks in my mind an image that is really shocking. So, for example, there is something that I'm working on. I don't usually decide, okay, now I'm going to write to. To work on that image that. That came into my mind. I want. Sometimes I just don't write for a week or two weeks or three weeks. So there is. There is this image of someone who was killed in an airstrike. And there was nothing left in his body. So he was in his flat and there was the airstrike. His hand flew into his neighbor's house. His head was crushed under the ceiling and his feet. Because it happened, by the way, in October last year. My brother took a photo and unfortunately we have a photo of a foot of a neighbor of ours which flew from about 200 meters away. We found it on the door to our house. So I have. Because that is a shocking image. I still have it on my phone. And I asked my question, you know, this is a poem that I'm working on that. This person who was killed in that Israelite says that my foot landed on our neighbor's doorsteps. My head was crushed under the ceiling. My fingers maybe hit the walls of our adjacent school. But where is me? I did not fall. So that. That's a. That's a poem that in the making. I didn't even start writing it, but I have this image here.
- [39:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [39:47]
Mosab Abu Toha
That I should write about it. I don't usually sit and okay, today morning I will. I don't usually do this. Maybe this can work for essays, could work for short stories or fiction. But for poems, sometimes the poem stays in your mind. It haunts you until you face it. So this is my writing process and I usually write something. I take notes. I love to work on my laptop. I don't usually use pen and paper. Unless, you know, unless I was. I mean, except When I was in Gaza, you know, we didn't have electricity to charge the phones or the laptops, so I was taking notes. I still have notes, you know, that I didn't work on even after October 7th until I was abducted on November 19th last year. I was keeping a journal. And when I was abducted at the checkpoint, the notebook was in my handbag. And when I was abducted, the Israeli soldiers ordered me to drop the bags. So my notebook was in the bag that I dropped at the checkpoint. Three days later when I was released, they dropped me at the same checkpoint and I found my handbag still here.
- [40:55]
Tracy Thomas
Was the notebook still in it?
- [40:57]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes.
- [40:58]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [40:58]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. But it was a little wet because of the weather.
- [41:01]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [41:01]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I still have that notebook.
- [41:03]
Tracy Thomas
Wow.
- [41:03]
Mosab Abu Toha
And I didn't even go back and read what I. What I wrote until today.
- [41:07]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, wow.
- [41:09]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [41:09]
Tracy Thomas
Incredible.
- [41:10]
Mosab Abu Toha
The Last entry was November 18th, one day before I was abducted.
- [41:15]
Tracy Thomas
Have you kept a new journal since then?
- [41:18]
Mosab Abu Toha
No, no, because. Because I didn't have time even to write my own stuff.
- [41:22]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [41:22]
Mosab Abu Toha
Unless. And, and except when I was writing pieces for the New York Times or the New Yorker, but other than that, I wasn't. I don't keep a journal. I don't take a lot of notes every day because I'm non stop translating breaking news from Gaza, posting videos and pictures, Posting. Please. From friends, you know, communicating with my, my, my father and my siblings in the Gaza, my sisters and their children, my friends, my students. So I even don't have time, you know, to sit and. Okay, today I'm going to write something. I don't have that kind of luxury.
- [41:55]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, you skipped over this part and I gotta get everybody on record on this. Do you have any snacks and beverages that you write with? And if not, can you just share some snacks and beverages that you love?
- [42:11]
Mosab Abu Toha
I can't live without tea.
- [42:12]
Tracy Thomas
What kind of tea? It's a black tea, my guy.
- [42:17]
Mosab Abu Toha
I mean, we have our own tea. It's snowing outside in Syracuse. Oh my goodness. Everything is white. I'm so thankful that it does not snow in Gaza, otherwise.
- [42:29]
Tracy Thomas
I live in Los Angeles, so I cannot relate to the snowing.
- [42:34]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, I believe I was in San Francisco a few days ago and the weather there is similar to the weather in Gaza. So in winter it could be too cold, but it doesn't snow. I've never seen snow in Gaza all my life.
- [42:47]
Tracy Thomas
Wow.
- [42:48]
Mosab Abu Toha
So my, my, my. My most beloved beverage is tea. Black tea. I would say it's very close to the English breakfast tea. English breakfast.
- [43:00]
Tracy Thomas
That's what I Drink.
- [43:01]
Mosab Abu Toha
And I add. And I add with this sage. And this is very common in Gaza. Dried sage leaves.
- [43:08]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, dried sage leaves. Okay, wait. I have sage in my refrigerator that I did not use at Thanksgiving time that I'm gonna dry and try. I'm gonna try it. We're.
- [43:19]
Mosab Abu Toha
You missed. You missed a lot.
- [43:21]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I'm gonna try it and see. Okay, wait. Will you talk to us a little bit about the title and the COVID of the book? Were you involved at all in the COVID process? How did you. The title is a line from. From one of the poems. How do you pick it?
- [43:36]
Mosab Abu Toha
Is it is even the, the title of one poem in the title? Yeah, yeah. Forest of Noise. You know about the holes on the ground in the street. If every, every, every. Every hole in the ground, in the asphalt and the tarmac is a forest of noise. Because in Gaza there is not a single moment when there was no drones buzzing sound, roar of an F16. The, you know, the, the helicopters sound in the sky, the gunboats, you know, screams of children, lovely words from a father to a mother, the honks of cars. So it's very noisy in Gaza, especially now. So that's forest of noise. And I think every poem is a forest of noise. You know, the ambulance sirens, the airstrike, the artillery shilling. I have on my phone because I know I'm recording. So I have on my phone I have recordings of sound. I have, I have recordings that run as long as seven hours in Ghana. I have five minutes long recording. I'm not sure if I have it on my iPad of, of artillery shilling on October, on November 17, which was my 31st birthday. I sometimes when I go and read, I present my book, I play some part of this voice memo and I would tell people to pay attention to three different kinds of sound in this segment. The first one is the sound of the artillery shell when it's fired and then the shells whirring sound in the sky over us and then the sound of the explosion itself. So it is, it is a forest of noise not only in. On the ground, but also in the sky over us. It is a forest of noise. Yeah. So. And the. As for the artwork, I was not involved in the creation of this artwork, but I really loved it because it reflects the opening for me. It reflects the opening of the book which says that every, every child in Gaza is me. Every mother and father is me. Every house is my heart, Every tree is my leg, every plant is my arm, every flower is my eye, Every hole in the earth is my wound. And when I published, when it was the publication day of the book, I posted that this hand, which looks like a tree branch, and these are some leaves, I invited people to think that this is a handshake, that they should place the palm of their hand over my book to say hi to me before we meet, maybe.
- [46:58]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. Okay. You are writing to do so much, right? Like, you have so much that you are trying to do with your work, because there is so much to show the world and to document and to honor for other people, both living and people who have passed, who are killed. And so I'm wondering, how do you say, okay, I'm done with this book. It's ready. Because like you said, everything is ongoing. This. The book might be done, but these poems are speaking to things that maybe happened but are also happening. So how do you say, here, here, John Freeman, my dear editor, take this. I'm done with it. Like, what is that like for you?
- [47:48]
Mosab Abu Toha
I think. I think the poems that are in that are in the book represent so many diverse experiences of what it means to be someone from Gaza. You know, poems from times when a father left his house to buy some bread for his kids, but news of his death made it home. This is a poem, by the way. So news of his death made it home, but not the bread. Bread. Death sits to eat whoever remains in the. Death sits to eat whoever remains of the kids. No need for a table. No need for bread. There is a. This is part of under the rubble. Long poem. There is a poem about the family gathering in Ramadan in 2024. In the. In the kitchen, the people were missing. In the house, the kitchen was missing. In the house, the house was missing. And the rubble of the house is waiting for a sunset or sunrise. Sorry. So. And there is a poem about my abduction. There is a poem about me watching a helicopter firing a rocket, you know, at a building that was just a few hundred meters away from me when I was 8 years old. You know, so these are. There are poems about before October 7th, before even. I mean, that are 20 years old. When I was. Even more. When I was 8 years old, that was about, I would say, 24 years old, sorry, 24 years ago. So there are poems from different. Different times, from different perspectives. The perspective of my father, sorry, my grandfather and my grandmother, when my father was a young boy in the refugee camp. So there was some kind of reminiscence when my grandfather was remembering the time when he was a groom, when he got married to my grandmother. I didn't see them, of course. I never met my grandfather, by the way. He died even before my father got married. So I write about these members of my family, my students, my neighbors. So I think the book has so many. So many things that represent the Palestinian experience, especially during the ongoing genocide in the Gaza Strip.
- [50:03]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay, I want to talk quickly. We have a little bit of time about the library. It was destroyed, as you mentioned. There's two of them. The Edward Said Library, English language. I mean, like, I don't even know if I have a good question about it. I just. I feel like it's. I would like to have you have the opportunity to speak about what. What you built and also what that loss looks like, especially, again, as a person who makes books and loves books and loves, from what I can tell of you, a person who is committed to documentation and in some ways is sort of like a cultural historian for your people and for Gaza. So I'm just curious, sort of what that has been.
- [50:47]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. Thank you for this question. And I think my contribution to the English, to the book community is a response on my part to the destruction of my library and also to the destruction of the Edward Said Public Libraries, two branches, one in North Gaza, one in Gaza City. And the loss that I had felt was not only the material loss of the books and the shelves and the space itself, but it's also of the time that I could have spent there with my students, with my friends, with my community. And it's also the loss of lives of so many people who used to come to the libraries. And I'm sure that there are so many people that I don't know about who were killed or who were injured. And it's also about the loss of a dear librarian who was killed, Dua Al Masri, who was killed with her parents and her siblings last December. So it is a huge loss for me when I start to talk about the libraries. It is a spiritual loss. It is an emotional loss. It is a. Yeah. A loss of so many people, you know, librarians, books, children who used to come to the libraries. And one reason why I created the libraries was then the immense need that we should have a space where people, especially Diane, could gather in a space that is encircled by books. It is a way to break the siege which Israel has been imposing since 2007. People have never been. Been allowed, mainly usually to leave Gaza, you know, to travel, to study, to just, you know, to. To do some tourism. And on the. On the other hand, people from outside have Never been allowed to visit Gaza unless they were, you know, parts of international delegations or maybe doctors or. So I was bringing the outside world to the people in my. In my cities. And it is heartbreaking that we have been reading books by American authors, many of whom have been silent about what's happening.
- [52:57]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [52:59]
Mosab Abu Toha
And also Western authors. Not only American authors.
- [53:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay, I have three more questions. One of them I hope you answer, but I guess you don't have to, which is, do you have a favorite poem in the collection?
- [53:14]
Mosab Abu Toha
I mean, it could be the long poem under the Rubble because it has so many different parts that speak to so many experiences. But if I. I mean, it is. It is a series of poems under one title, but a very, very favorite poem would be Right or Left.
- [53:31]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I like that one. Can I tell you my favorite?
- [53:34]
Mosab Abu Toha
Please.
- [53:34]
Tracy Thomas
My favorite. I liked a lot of them. I actually had to go back and I took notes on which ones I liked, and then I went back and reread and I decided that I had a favorite, but it was down to kind of a few. But no Art. I loved no Art.
- [53:46]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I loved no Art. That's another favorite.
- [53:49]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, good. Okay, good.
- [53:49]
Mosab Abu Toha
After Elizabeth. Yeah, I love it. But I mean, because that poem, you know, that poem, by the way, no Art was written before October 7th. About that. Because in the poem, I said. I said I lost the three friends to war, a city to darkness, and a language to fear. That was before October 7th. Because after October 7th, I lost at least 300 friends, whether they are neighbors, whether they are school friends, whether they are people from the neighborhood. So. But. But. But that poem, writer left. Why I chose it, it's because about, you know, a sister of a friend of mine whose body remained unavailable until today.
- [54:25]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. You mentioned earlier that, you know, you were. You were thinking about this book as maybe an entry point for people. So for people who read Forest of Noise and they love it, what other books would you recommend to them that are in conversation with your work?
- [54:42]
Mosab Abu Toha
I don't want to be selfish.
- [54:44]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [54:45]
Mosab Abu Toha
But my first book. My first book, things you may find hidden in My Ear, is a necessary read when it comes to reading Forest of Noise because many of the poems in the first book also happened again and again during the ongoing genocide. For example, Shrapne Looking for Laughter. It is my. I would say my favorite poem in that book. It is about a family who was killed under the rubble of their house. The whole family, the father, the mother, and the four children. The oldest was ten years old, and they were Living just two kilometers away from us. And I was a father, and I was seeing this thing as if it was happening to me. So other books would be Mahmoud Darwish's Memory for Forgetfulness, which is a prose book about the siege on Beirut in 1982. Books by. By Atav Abu Sayef, the Drone Eats With Me. That is from 2014. Israel, 2014, Israeli attacks. Men in the sun by Ghassan Kanathani. So they are not necessarily. I mean, this. Men in the sun or Returning to Haifa are not necessarily in direct conversation with the book, but they are very important to understanding the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948. And even after. After, you know, books by other Palestinian American writers like Naomi Shihab Naib, like Lena Khalaf. To Fah, who won the National Book Award this month. Congratulations. Hala Alian, Lisa Suhair Majaj, Suzanne Abulhawatu, you know, who wrote Mornings in Jenin about the massacre in the Jenin refugee camp. And there are so many other writers, of course, the work of Edward Said is a must read. Rashid Khalidi, the 100 year war on Palestine, which a few days ago, a photo of Biden. That book.
- [56:34]
Tracy Thomas
What a joke.
- [56:35]
Mosab Abu Toha
Well, I wish. I wish. I wish he could just grab a copy of my book. Yes. And read a poem.
- [56:41]
Tracy Thomas
Well, Obama's list hasn't come out yet, so maybe you'll be on it. That would be very Obama, you know.
- [56:46]
Mosab Abu Toha
Because he does book.
- [56:48]
Tracy Thomas
He always does his list. He does two. It's probably coming next week. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to just manifest.
- [56:54]
Mosab Abu Toha
I didn't. I didn't. I don't care. I mean, whether he or Biden, But, I mean, at least they should. They should read some of the poems. This is, to me, is. Is not about me. This book is not about me, by the way. No, it is about. It is about my family, my people, my students. You know, it is about. It is. It is about a genocide that is. That is ongoing.
- [57:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [57:17]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know, just. I mean, I said that more than once. Just imagine you are reading Anne Frank's diary while she was hiding from the Nazis in Amsterdam. Just imagine you are reading something like this.
- [57:28]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [57:29]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know?
- [57:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay, My last question. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [57:39]
Mosab Abu Toha
My grandfather.
- [57:41]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [57:42]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. I never met my grandfather. As I said, he died at the age of 59. Yeah, he was very young. I mean, he died in the refugee camp. And the reason why he died, as my father told me, he contracted diabetes after the Israeli soldiers one day in the late 1970s broke into his house and they terrified him, terrorized him. Not terrified, he terrorized him and his children and wives while they were sleeping. It was 3am My father told me when that happened. And after that day my grandfather's health started to deteriorate until he was tied to a wheelchair and he died in 1984, three years before my father got married. So I dedicated this book to my I wish my grandfather could read this book because I wrote something about him in the book and also in my first book I wrote my grandfather was a terrorist and also my grandfather and home about his wish to My grandfather used to count the days for return with his fingers. Then he started to use the stones, the trees, the plants. Then absence turned out of eat along, you know. Then he started using people to count, you know. And you know he died 36 years after the Nakba and for us now it's over 70 years. So I wish my grandfather could read read some of my poems because I write in his honor too.
- [59:07]
Tracy Thomas
Mossad thank you so much for being here. Thank you for talking with us about the book. It is so fantastic. People listening. You can get this book wherever you get your books. It is out in the world now. It would make a fantastic holiday present for people in your lives. It will make a fantastic book for your own shelves. It would make a fantastic book to make sure that your libraries have in stock. Make sure that you request them, your local libraries. Mosab, thank you so much for being here.
- [59:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
Thank you Tracy. I really love talking to you.
- [59:40]
Tracy Thomas
Same and everyone else, we will see you in the snacks. All right y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to MOSUB for joining the show. I'd also like to thank Micho Clark for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the Stacks Book Club page pick for December is Tacky by Rax King and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25th. Yes, Christmas. Yes, we're that kind of tacky with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack. And you can check out my newsletter over on substack@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and you can check out our website@thestackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRate, and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.