Ep. 360 Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov — The Stacks Book Club (Ira Madison III)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks Episode 360 – Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov with Ira Madison III

Release Date: February 26, 2025

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1. Introduction

In Episode 360 of The Stacks, host Tracy Thomas engages in a deep and provocative discussion with returning guest Ira Madison III about Vladimir Nabokov's controversial 1955 novel, Lolita. The episode delves into the novel's intricate themes, its place in the literary canon, and the broader cultural and societal implications it presents.

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2. Plot Overview

Tracy begins by providing a succinct plot summary for listeners unfamiliar with the novel:

“Lolita is a book about a man named Humbert Humbert who is, for all intents and purposes, a pedophile sexual abuser. He is institutionalized at the start, and the narrative unfolds through his confession to a crowd. Humbert becomes obsessed with a 12-year-old girl named Dolores Hayes, whom he nicknames Lolita. The story follows his journey as he kidnaps her, drives across the country, and sexually abuses her over several years.”
— Tracy Thomas, [02:55]

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3. Literary Analysis: Unreliable Narrator

A central theme discussed is Nabokov's use of Humbert Humbert as an unreliable narrator. Ira appreciates the complexity this adds to the novel:

“I think the ability to use an unreliable narrator is so interesting. It challenges the reader in the way the author intended.”
— Ira Madison III, [04:26]

Tracy echoes this sentiment, highlighting how Humbert manipulates the reader:

“Humbert is so forward with some of the most disgusting details that you're persuaded by him initially, making his deceit unsettling and impactful.”
— Tracy Thomas, [06:18]

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4. Authorial Intent and Moral Responsibility

The conversation turns to what Nabokov aimed to achieve with Lolita. Ira references Nabokov’s essay on the book, emphasizing the author's focus on aesthetic beauty over moralizing:

“Nabokov argues for something called ‘aesthetic bliss,’ focusing on good writing and storytelling without imposing a moral point of view.”
— Ira Madison III, [15:57]

Tracy reflects on this, questioning whether he agrees with Nabokov's stance:

“I don't think the author owes me any point of view. If the writing is good, the message will resonate, regardless of agreement.”
— Tracy Thomas, [42:10]

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5. Cultural and Societal Context

The hosts explore the societal taboos addressed in Lolita. Ira notes that the book tackles sex, race, and religion—subjects that were particularly taboo in 1950s America:

“In the 1950s, polite society pretended sex didn’t exist, and terms for sexual abuse were not as developed as they are today.”
— Ira Madison III, [11:30]

Tracy connects this to contemporary issues, noting the resurgence of book bans and cultural debates:

“At the beginning of the second Trump administration, book bans are rampant, making Lolita a litmus test for progressive cultural talking points.”
— Tracy Thomas, [19:43]

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6. Character Analysis: Dolores vs. Lolita

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting the duality of Dolores Hayes and her alter ego, Lolita. Tracy references Jamie Loftus's podcast to articulate this distinction:

“Dolores is the actual child, while Lolita represents the fantasy created by Humbert. Lolita as a title underscores this separation.”
— Tracy Thomas, [43:21]

Ira adds depth to this analysis by suggesting that Nabokov uses these two personas to compartmentalize his own traumas and Humbert’s actions:

“Nabokov might be using Dolores and Lolita as separate characters to reflect his own psychological compartments.”
— Ira Madison III, [43:53]

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7. Publication and Reception

The discussion touches on the novel's publication history and its reception over the decades. Ira highlights Nabokov's challenge against censorship and societal norms:

“Nabokov wrote Lolita to push against American censorship and provoke thought about where society enacts its own bans.”
— Ira Madison III, [13:05]

Tracy connects this to modern-day censorship debates, emphasizing the book's enduring controversial status:

“Lolita remains a pivotal work that continues to evoke strong reactions, underscoring its place in literary discussions.”
— Tracy Thomas, [19:43]

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8. Book Cover Discussion

A lighter yet insightful segment involves analyzing various editions of Lolita's book covers. Tracy expresses frustration over depictions that misrepresent the novel's essence:

“Most covers feature a girl, which distorts the book's focus on the predator and victim dynamic.”
— Tracy Thomas, [60:19]

Ira concurs, noting the provocative nature of the covers and their failure to capture the novel's true intent:

“The covers are often provocative but miss the deeper psychological and societal themes Nabokov explores.”
— Ira Madison III, [60:53]

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9. Modern Relevance and Censorship

The hosts draw parallels between Lolita and contemporary works addressing similar themes of abuse and power dynamics. Tracy mentions current books like Night Crawling and discusses their reception compared to Lolita:

“Modern books about sexual abuse, especially those involving marginalized groups, receive more empathetic attention, whereas Lolita continues to polarize.”
— Tracy Thomas, [55:33]

Ira adds that the landscape of publishing has shifted, making outright bans on such books less likely, though cultural resistance remains:

“Books like Lolita would still face controversy today, but the dynamics of censorship have evolved with technology and societal changes.”
— Ira Madison III, [54:11]

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10. Conclusion and Future Picks

As the episode wraps up, Tracy announces the March book club pick, White Women as Slave Owners in the American South by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers, aligning with Women's History Month themes. The hosts emphasize the importance of confronting uncomfortable and complex historical narratives through literature.

Tracy concludes by inviting listeners to support the podcast through Patreon and Substack, ensuring continued in-depth literary discussions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tracy Thomas [02:55]: “Lolita is a book about a man named Humbert Humbert who is, for all intents and purposes, a pedophile sexual abuser.”

• Ira Madison III [04:26]: “I think the ability to use an unreliable narrator is so interesting. It challenges the reader in the way the author intended.”

• Tracy Thomas [06:18]: “Humbert is so forward with some of the most disgusting details that you're persuaded by him initially, making his deceit unsettling and impactful.”

• Ira Madison III [15:57]: “Nabokov argues for something called ‘aesthetic bliss,’ focusing on good writing and storytelling without imposing a moral point of view.”

• Tracy Thomas [19:43]: “At the beginning of the second Trump administration, book bans are rampant, making Lolita a litmus test for progressive cultural talking points.”

• Tracy Thomas [43:21]: “Dolores is the actual child, while Lolita represents the fantasy created by Humbert. Lolita as a title underscores this separation.”

• Ira Madison III [43:53]: “Nabokov might be using Dolores and Lolita as separate characters to reflect his own psychological compartments.”

• Tracy Thomas [60:19]: “Most covers feature a girl, which distorts the book's focus on the predator and victim dynamic.”

• Ira Madison III [54:11]: “Books like Lolita would still face controversy today, but the dynamics of censorship have evolved with technology and societal changes.”

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Final Thoughts

Episode 360 of The Stacks offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of Lolita, challenging listeners to reconsider their perceptions of the novel and its enduring impact. Through insightful dialogue, Tracy and Ira navigate the complex interplay of narrative technique, authorial intent, and cultural reflection, making this episode a must-listen for literature enthusiasts and cultural critics alike.

Transcript

[Ira Madison III]

You can mention so many books that aren't controversial like this, you know, that people misinterpret, you know. Yes, people misinterpret Tom Sawyer, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Ira Madison III]

And I think when you don't teach books, you lose the context in which a book was written, the time period which it was written, and and you're not being challenged in the way that the author was intending to challenge people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Foreign welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and it's the Stacks Book Club Day and this month we are discussing the 1955 novel Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov with our returning guest author and podcaster Ira Madison iii. This novel follows Humbert Humbert, a man consumed by his obsession with a 12 year old girl named Dolores Hayes who he calls Lolita. It's a book that has been widely debated for decades, both for its place in the literary canon and for the way it manipulates the reader. We talk about all that and a lot more on today's Episode. As a reminder, there are spoilers on today's episode, so make sure you've either read the book before you listen or decide that you don't care about spoilers and carry on. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our March Book Club pick will be. And as a reminder, everything Ira and I talk about on today's episode can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, there are two great ways that you can support the work of the Stacks. You can join the stacks pack on Patreon by going to patreon.com the stacks and slash. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter unstacked by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com one of the discontinued perks of Patreon is getting a shout out on this show and I have a few more people I need to shout out who signed up before the deadline. So thank you to Taylor Gramps, Kendall Spooner, Anna Canard, Marie Lachat, Jewels, Sarah unt, Ariadne Rebecca Owen, John Gearing be Cheyenne, Aaron, Shea, Demitri Goodkov, J. Melanie K. Powers and Sarah Sharko. Again, if you want to join the Sax pack, go to patreon.com the stacks and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com okay, now it's time for my spoiler filled conversation about Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita with Ira Madison iii. All right everybody, it's Book club, February book club. And I gotta say, guys, we are here with one of our most controversial book club picks ever, which is sort of a surprise to me. We are reading Lolita by Vladimir Nov. And we are joined again by by author, podcaster, cultural critic, and now friend of the pod, Ira Madison iii. Ira, welcome back.

[Ira Madison III]

Hi. Oh, my God. Causing controversy in this bookery.

[Tracy Thomas]

We are. Yes, there's some hateration in this bookery, let me tell you. So before we even dive in, I'm going to give a quick plot summary. People listening, we are going to spoil Lolita. It came out in 1955. If you have not read it, that's fine, but we're going to talk about what happens in the book. I had not read it until this very month, so don't. No shame in not having read it. But if you don't want to know what happens, leave and come back after you read it. Okay, so Lolita is a book about a man named Humbert Humbert who is for all intents and purposes, a fucking pedophile sexual abuser. He is a we when the book starts, he's been institutionalized and we get a letter from a doctor who's like, what you're about to read is written by Humbert Humbert, who's dead. And then we read all about him meeting a child named Dolores Hayes, who he eventually kidnaps, drives across the country, sexually abuses for years. And that's basically the overall premise of the book. And yeah, we're going to dive into it deeper, but that's all you need to know for now, Ira. We always start here with book, with the book club episodes generally and about, you know, keep it short, keep it sweet. What did you think about Lolita?

[Ira Madison III]

Listen, I read this book in undergrad, you know, and I think what's interesting about this is that it's been a book that people have been talking about lately. I feel like on like tick tock, like younger generations are sort of discovering it. I think there's always a moment where people are like, why are we reading this book?

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, I mean, this is my first of his books. Did you like it this time?

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah. I mean, I love the prose in this book, to be honest. You know, I think that he wrote this in English and then translated it to Russian, you know, and there's this and, you know, there's this other book, Pale Fire, but I don't know, an invitation to a beheading, which is what I read earlier first in high school at some point, just because I Was I was like, enamored with the title. It took me a while to get through it, but no, I don't know. I think it's a weird, interesting book. It's. So if you love literature, if you love the process of writing too, I think that it's sort of an important book to read. I think that the, you know, the ability to use an unreliable narrator is so interesting. I read this book a few months after I had finished the Shards, you know, by Brett Easton Ellis. And that book is also a unreliable narrator, you know, and I think that this is sort of an introduction to that within. In college, for me, at least it was, you know, and just the way to write that and the way to write stories, the way to write tough subjects too, but also present them in a way that doesn't feel like traumatic and, you know, almost like it's a torture porn, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So here are my big takeaways. This is my first time reading it. I was very into the unre unreliable narrator of it all and the manipulation of the audience that he does, like, the way that he makes us sort of implicated in the whole thing. I think that, like, it's so unsettling for a reader to be like, wait, what did he just say? Like, he just licked her eyeball. Like, I had to read the licking of the eyeballs. Like, what the fuck is happening here? And that to me is like, real skill on the Bakov's part. I. I am not a flowery prose person, so I'm usually not bored by some of the writing. It was a little long for me in parts. Like, there were definite part was like, wait, why is this the greatest novel on? Like, why is this everyone's favorite novel ever? But it did. What I loved about the book is that it really made me think so much about this idea of, like, authorial intent and like, what the author owes the reader and. And all of these questions that I feel like I think about a lot. This book is like the case study of, like, art versed artist and all of like, that stuff. And I really like that. And so those were sort of like my big takeaways. I understand why people love this book, but I, at the same time, I don't understand why people love this book and, like, make it their personality. Like, I think like, Bradley Cooper reading this book to his, like, very young girlfriend in France is like, that was.

[Ira Madison III]

That was a wild photo. I forgot about that. I forgot about that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'll link them in the show notes. Everybody, but, like, that level of Lolita love to me is like, fudgeing. Weird as hell, but just, like, liking the book, I'm like, yeah, no, I get it, I get it.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah. I think. I think that there always exists, you know, this sort of contrarianism, you know, I think it's sort of cool. Quote, unquote cool, you know, for some people to pick this book, not just men, but, you know, like, women to pick this book is like their favorite book, you know, it's almost challenging, you know, just to say. Yeah, just not just the subject matter, but also just because of the writing, you know. But no, it's not. It's not my favorite by any means. You know, Like, I didn't even own it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Ira Madison III]

When I picked it, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's right. I think, like, I understand why it's a good book. I understand why it's beloved. I. It made me extremely impressed with the author. Like, I was like, oh, okay, I get why people, like, go balls to the wall for him. But I also was not like this book changed my life in any way. And I also understand people who really dislike this book. Like, I understand why you could be extremely put off by this book, but I do want to unpack some of that because I have so many questions around a lot of that stuff. But I think where we should really start is, like, what do you think Nabokov was trying to do with this book? Like, why write this book?

[Ira Madison III]

Mm. Well, here's the thing too, you know, I think I've read before on why teachers teach this book, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, okay. I wanna know.

[Ira Madison III]

And I think that there was one essay by an andwyer who discusses why this book was maybe written. And first of all, it was about Nabokov's love of sort of like the English language, you know, and he'd written Russian novels before, but this was him sort of tackling America, you know, it's set in America, you know, And I think you also have to take the context of when it was written because, you know, we have terms for, you know, sexual abuse now. You know, we. We talk about sex readily. You know, there's books like 50 Shades of Gray, you know, where we actually discuss sex, you know, like, we discuss heterosexual and non heterosexual sex, you know, which we couldn't do, you know, even in, like, the time of Oscar Wilde, right when he was writing. And in 1950s America, she writes that, like, polite society pretended sex didn't exist, you know, and many of us are now comfortable acknowledging discussing sex between consenting adults, but, you know, teenagers especially, you know, did not have a language for this, you know, And I think that he wrote that, and he wrote in an essay titled, on a book entitled Lolita, that there were three taboos American publishers refused to tackle. The first concerns Lolita. He never, like, names the exact taboo. The second is, quote, a Negro white marriage, which is a complete and glorious success, resulting in lots of children and grandchildren. And then the third is that total atheist who lives a happy and useful life and dies in his sleep at the age of 106. So, you know, sex, race, and religion were taboo subjects in the 50s, and they're still sort of subjects that are causing controversy to this day, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think that's right. I feel like. I feel like. To the question of, like, why it's taught in schools, I. I do have that question. Like, I think it's weird to teach this in high school.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because I'm just like, this was college, by the way.

[Ira Madison III]

But, yeah, not high school.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I know a lot of people read it in high school. I'm pretty sure people read it in high school. And I do think. I'm like, I wish. I need. If you're a teacher listening to this and you teach this book, tell me why. Because I do think that there are other books that might be better for young people around, like, unreliable narrators or, like, beautiful writing where you don't have this, like, weird cultural obsession with underage girls being part of it. Because. And I want to get to this later, but, like, one of the things about Lolita is, like, there's the book Lolita and what's in the book. And then there's the term Lolita and what it means culturally and, like, the objectification of young women and sort of like in the movies, turning her into sort of turning it into a love story, which, I mean, I don't think this book is a love story. I think this book is a story about a predator. And I think, like, now, you know, 70 years after the books come out, it's interesting that people, like, still teach it, knowing that it's tied up and all of that other stuff. And maybe that's why they teach it. I don't know. I'm not a teacher. I would be too scared to teach this in school because, like, adults reading this book with us this month are so mad at me about it. Like, I cannot imagine getting those parent letters about teaching this in school.

[Ira Madison III]

I mean, there's also the question, I think, of censorship. Right. You Know, like, yes, first of all, he wasn't even published in the Soviet Union, you know, and.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Ira Madison III]

I think. But one of the commonplaces of the Communist Party she wrote was, you know, like, discussions of forbidden books, you know, and it was art of. I haven't read it, but. But, yeah, you know, I think it was about. He was writing this specifically because he didn't want people to fall in the trap of placing judgment on books they hadn't read. And I think he was sort of pushing someone writes, you know, the essay that I mentioned, like, writes that he's pushing Americans with their express ideology of freedom to notice where they enact censorship, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I think this is what's been so fascinating about reading this book right now at the beginning of this second Trump administration, where book bans are coming up constantly. I mean, I just saw a thing today that J.D. vance's book is on the list of getting banned under some new Trump whatever at the Department of Defense. Like, that, like, one thing about the tables. Yeah, they turn, turn. Okay, they turn. But I think, like, what I found really interesting is so many people who have reached out to me on social media being like, why are you reading this? Like, and they want to. They want to censor the reading of this book, even though they would tell you they're, again, they're not, like, for book bands, but, like, so I think that's really interesting, too. This book feels like a sort of litmus test for a lot of progressive air quotes, cultural talking points. Right. It's like this idea that we should be. We should be reading widely and, like, we should be thinking about these things. But as soon as a book presents this taboo, and I think Noakov is right, those taboos still are alive and well, you know, 70 years later. But I do think I, I was. The irony of, like, people being like, don't ban books. Don't ban books. And then be like, you shouldn't read that book. Yeah, okay, but why? Yeah, why not that book? So one of the things in the essay that you talk about at the end of the book or at the one like on Lolita, he wrote it a year after the book came out, and he talks a lot about, like, moralizing and the. Whether the author sort of owes his readers, their readers, any answers, like, does the book need a moral point of view? He argues for something that he calls aesthetic bliss, which is basically just like, good writing, like good storytelling, and that there is no moral to the story in his mind. As you read the book, do you buy that. Do you buy that Nabokov has no point of view about this book and slash? Or do you think authors owe their readers a point of view about their work? A clear point of view about their work?

[Ira Madison III]

I actually don't think so. You know, I mean, I think at the end of the day you can take or leave a piece, but, you know, I think that you shouldn't have to impose a point of view on an author, you know, And I'm thinking about another author that I enjoy. You know, like I just said, I was reading the Shards, which is. He's sort of not even controversial anymore, you know, because he's just always talking.

[Tracy Thomas]

So he's not. He's always getting in trouble.

[Ira Madison III]

He's just always talking, but not really getting in trouble anymore. But I remember American Psycho, you know, like when I was reading the stuff about American Psycho, you know, it being unpublished at the last minute and then being picked up by Knopf and just this idea that that's also a book that's become like, culturally, you know, like a lot of people are like, it's my favorite book, you know, And I don't particularly actually love American Psycho that much.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cause I think, okay, I liked it a lot. Oh, you did? But I read it years ago, but I was not born.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah, no, I was never born. You know, I think it's in terms of. Versus his other books. I think other ones are better, but.

[Tracy Thomas]

It'S the only one I've read.

[Ira Madison III]

So I think it's fun, you know, and I think that you go back to that time and you think about, you know, people writing essays, people, you know, burning the book, you know, people saying it's, you know, morally wrong and like, you know, like for him to be writing this book, you know, from the perspective of a serial killer, like a cannibal, you know, and it's sort of like it's going to inspire people to do that. And, you know, I think it's just, I don't know, it's interesting to see the self censorship that pops up in liberal circles with books, you know, when they would decry it in other realms.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I don't feel personally that an author owes me any. Anything except for a well written book, if I like it or not, if I agree with their point of view or not. That's between me and my, my own thinking. But I don't need Nabokov to, to clearly lay out what he thinks about Humbert, Humbert and Lolita. I think if he's written a good book the answer will feel clear to me, even if it's not the same answer. That feels clear to you. Like my. More My thing seems pretty clear to me, too. Honestly, this book feels crystal clear. The fact that it is misinterpreted. But then again, I'm like, if because it's misinterpreted so much, is that his fault is. Does that mean that Nabaka failed in some ways, that this work of his has turned into Children Are Sexy? Because in a lot of ways, that's how people think of, like, a Lolita.

[Ira Madison III]

You know, I think that one it's, you know, when you think of the Stanley Kubrick film, which is, I think, better than the Adrian Lean film, even though I like Adrian's other films, you know, I think that people are always going to interpret text. You can mention so many books that aren't controversial like this, you know, that people misinterpret, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Ira Madison III]

People misinterpret Tom Sawyer, you know? You know, I mean, I feel like people misinterpret Mark Twain's intentions, you know, And I think a lot of what happens is when you don't teach books, you lose you. When you don't have a teacher teaching a book. Right. You lose the context in which a book was written, the time period which it was written. And of course, many things can feel very different if you're not reading it, if you're not that exact reader, you know, if you do not have the mind of a person in the 50s reading this book, you know, and you're not being challenged in the way that the author was intending to challenge people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. There's another article, and I'm going to link to all these things in the. In the show notes, but there's another piece about. By Nabokov about. It's called how to Be a Good Reader or Kindness to Authors. That's like, the title, you know, the. Or. He's such a pretentious asshole. I fucking love it. But he talks about, like, how, like, what readers should. Should be doing. Like, how to, like, literally how to be a good reader. And one of the things he talks about is, like, not going in with a preconceived notion. And I feel like that's so much of what's happened with Lolita is like, before you ever open the book, you're like, this is a book about. About. Either you go in and you're like, this is a book about a disgusting pedophile, and Nabokov's disgusting for writing it, or you Go in and you're like, this is about a love story. And, like, neither of those things are really what the book is about or, like, what's in the details of the book. And so I think. I think he would hate the way that this book is read today. Like, I think he would be like, are you guys kidding me? I even laid out instructions, like, how to read this book. Notes on Lolita. Like, I'm fucking telling you. And to that end, we should talk about what's in the book. We will come back to some of this other cultural discussion, but I want to start with just the introduction. So the forward to the book is a faux forward. I was on, like, Reddit and people being like, why would I read the forward? I never read the forward until after I finished the book. I thought it was a like. And I was like, oh, gag the girls.

[Ira Madison III]

Immediately.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I'm like, well, you missed the fucking whole setup. The forward of the book is a letter to the reader from this doctor. What's his name? John J. Or something? John Ray Jr. PhD. Okay, Dr. Ritt. And he talks about finding this Lolita, or the confession of a white widowed male. And in the beginning of the book. So this is not a spoiler. It's literally on, like, page two or three, he tells us that both Humbert Humbert and Dolores Hayes, who has a new married name, are dead. So you met. You missed it. I missed it, too. I didn't know that was her new name. And it sort of sets up like, John. John Ray is like, I'm not glorifying this. I'm just sort of presenting this because we should be, like, thinking about these kinds of people who are troubled.

[Ira Madison III]

Lolita should make all of us parents, social workers, educators, apply ourselves with still greater vigilance and vision to the task of bringing up a better generation in a safer world. Is what. How that forward ends. And, you know, when you think about the book, too, It's. It's the 1950s. Sex is taboo. You know, like, Ricky and Lucy aren't even sleeping in the same bed together on I Love Lucy. Which then means that it is probably easier for, you know, adults to prey on children. You know, in this time period, there was this a period when everyone trusted their neighbors. You know, like, you didn't think, like, serial killers were rare, but, you know, because people were trusting a smile of a white man. You know, like, white men weren't dangerous in this period, you know, And I think that it also challenges. We'll get to this when we talk about you know, young Lolita. But I think that Lolita is presented as smarter than Humbert, you know, in many ways. You know, and there's just a shocking moment, too, where he's, like. He's obsessed with her purity, you know, and then the moment when she talks about being at camp and, like, already having experience, you know, like, sexual activity with other young kids, you know, I think that it also challenges the notion of what parents think that, you know, their kids are doing with other kids, and what do kids who are attracted to each other, like, what should they be doing with one another, you know, and what should parents be thinking about it, et cetera.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's totally spot on. I want to come back. I want to spend a lot of time on Dolores in a second, but. Or, AKA Lolita. And I think we could talk about when. When. When we use which names for her and why. But. So we get this, like, little introduction, then we go into the book. It starts with the famous lines like, lolita, my love, Lolita. So, so romantic. And from the beginning, I mean, from the forward, from the very beginning, we are told this person has problems, he is not to be trusted. And yet still I found myself being persuaded by him. I was charmed in some ways, because he's so. I feel like it's because he tells you everything so forward, like, so forward, that you're like, oh, well, he's not lying to me. Like, it's so repulsive what he's saying. Like, why would he lie to me? And I think that's, like, such a great sleight of hand for a writer, because I feel like sometimes when you get an unreliable narrator, it's like they're keeping things from you, so you don't fully trust them because you're like, oh, I know you're a liar and you're not telling me what's up. But in this case. Case, he's telling us the truth. Air quotes. And we know he's lying, but because he's so forward with some of the most, like, disgusting details about things, you're like, right, okay, Humbert's my guy. And then you remember the layer on top of that, which is that he's writing this to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury. So ultimately, he's. This is his testimony. He's trying to persuade us he's lying to us on purpose, but because he's letting us in on some of the things we know, he's hiding some of the darker things. And I just think, like, I don't know. I think that's so fucking hard to do in, like, to have a liar feel believable and. Because usually it's like, I'm lying. Wink, wink, wink.

[Ira Madison III]

You know, Also there's the idea that, you know, he's an unreliable narrator from the jump, you know, because so many books with an unreliable narrator, it's a thing where you have to discover late through reading the book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Ira Madison III]

That they're lying to you.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's right. I mean, not to give a spoiler on a really old movie, but I think all the time about, oh, my God, what's the Kevin Spacey movie?

[Ira Madison III]

Oh, the Usual Suspects.

[Tracy Thomas]

The Usual Suspects. It's like, they save that twist till the last 30 seconds, right? And, like. And, like, so then you're like, oh, it was all a lie. But it's crazy to read a book from the very first time you are introduced to the. Or the first time the person speaks to you. To be like this, don't trust this guy. Whatever you do, this guy's fucked up. And then to still be like, I. I mean, was that really a lot? Like, so I think that, like, really is amazing. And I think, like, using the tool of us being his jury and his audience and, like, really engaging with us in that way. Like, there's the scene where he's like, I want you to come with me and do this. I want you to. I want you to feel what I felt in these moments. Like, come on, reader, you get to be a pedophile, too. Like, come on in. You're. I'm not doing this alone now. We're all doing this together. And it, like, leaves you feeling icky because you're like, don't. Don't do this to me. Like. But I have to keep reading. I have to know what happens.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah, that's. I mean, it's very American Psycho, you know, I think that's very. You know, it implicates the reader in the murders. And what's so interesting, too, about his narration is. I don't know. I'm just like, one. The prose is gorgeous. If you've never listened to the audiobook, the Jeremy Irons narrator.

[Tracy Thomas]

I listen to some of it. It's so good.

[Ira Madison III]

So good. I'm just like. As a writer, this, like, obviously, the flowery prose can be annoying, and I hate that shit a lot of times, too. But, you know, like, otherwise, just. The writing itself is gorgeous. You know, it. Like, it could teach you writing, you know, and it could teach you a character. Just because I Love the moments when he slipped out of telling the story. Like when he's. When he starts getting upset with, like, the prison library.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. It's so believable. Like, it's so believable. And he, like, goes on and on about some things and then some things, like, he doesn't want to talk about. It's like one sentence in and out, we're done.

[Ira Madison III]

When he talks about things so openly and, you know, sort of disgusting. Right. You also notice that he does not really describe any of the sexual acts with Lolita themselves. You know, like, it's very shielded from that. Exact specifics of that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, and I. There. I want to talk about that, too, because there's some things I think about that. I think part of it is because he knows that we're the jury and, like, it's not going to be. It's not going to endear us to him for him to describe those behaviors in the 1950s or happening in the 1940s. But I also think Nabokov is doing something really smart with that, which I. Which I do want to get to. Okay. So we meet him. He talks about his, like, childhood love, who died young, as sort of this justification for falling in love with Lolita. Dolores, which we. Which I don't buy, because obviously later on, and there's so many other nymphets that he's attracted to. He's like, oh, she reminds me of. Of my childhood love. But then it's like, oh, so there's that girl and this girl in that girl. You're like, okay, so maybe it's. It was just that she's young.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's like, okay, dude, you're fucking lying.

[Ira Madison III]

Also, Annabelle, who he's reminded of his childhood. Yes. I'm sure you read that. It was like, it was probably Nabokov doing a play on words on Edgar Allan Poe's Young Bride.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes. And his poem. There's a poem to, like, Annabel Lee.

[Ira Madison III]

Or something like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yes. There's a lot of references in this book. A lot of references. And I'm sure many of them went over my head because I'm not reading this in 1955. So, like, things that would be, like, culturally relevant. I'm just like, I don't fucking know. So fast forward. He goes to this town. He's supposed to live with these people, but then they have a fire in their house. And so he gets put up at this lady Charlotte's house. Charlotte has a daughter, Dolores. Dolores becomes Lolita. He is repulsed By Charlotte. Charlotte is disgusting to him. Lolita is his nymphet, his everything. She's beautiful, she's perfect. She's whatever. They have some interactions. They send Lolita away to Dolores, away to school. And then Charlotte's like, I love you. I've loved you since the moment I laid eyes on you. I love you. According to him, this is the letter she writes. I love you. I love you. I love you. Don't ever leave my side. Actually, go away from me for now, unless you love me, too, if you're still here. Like, it's like, this whole crazy thing that he reads the. And then he tells us that he reads the letter from Charlotte in Lolita's bed. And I was just like. Like, ew. Like, it's like you're reading this whole scene, and then all of a sudden, there goes Humbert, being a creep out of nowhere. So he ends up marrying Charlotte. And then he tells us approximately three different times that he wants to kill her. He wants her dead. And then Charlotte discovers his writings about Lolita and Charlotte, and she writes some letters herself. She runs out of the house while he's in the other room trying to, like, fix a drink to, like, smooth things over, and she's hit by a car and killed. The most important question I have for you in this entire episode is, did he kill her?

[Ira Madison III]

I think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

How did he do it?

[Ira Madison III]

I think just the entire thing about the car is probably just made up.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay? You just think she. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. It's just a lie. It's a whole lie because, okay, it's gotta be a fucking murder. The idea that it's an accident is just so crazy to me. And I guess that's true. Like, he just. It's not like he could. Like, people are gonna go on Google and be like, what happened to Charlotte Hayes? Like, it's just whatever.

[Ira Madison III]

Well, because even. Even the doctor at the beginning, you know, talks about how this. He's unearthing this letter that was. He's unearthing this story to the jury, right? And, like, if it hadn't been for unearthing this, like, the actual case of, like, the whole incident, no one remembered anymore, you know? And so he's sort of bringing it to light, which means that, you know, like, he could have just said whatever he wanted to say, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, good. Because later in the book, Lolita, at least twice, I think, is like, you killed my mom. You're a murderer. That's what she says to him after he kidnaps her and I'm like, yeah, no, I'm with you girl. But how did he do it? Okay, so he kills the mom, he goes to pick Lolita up from her little summer camp and takes her away and sort of convinces everyone that he is actually a former lover of Charlotte's and they go way back and that Lolita actually, or Dolores actually might be Humbert and Charlotte's child all grown up. So he's the real father of the child, which is so twisted. And then drives her around, they go to a hotel, he sexually abuses her, he assaults her, he rapes her. And then she's like, when can I see my mom? And this is what is the end of act to act one. And it's devastating. He's like, you can't, she's dead. Then she comes back to him after leaving the room because she has nowhere else to go. So we, we end part one with just like Trapped Child Predator continue forth. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. If you like what you're hearing this week on the Stacks, I encourage you to check out the Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter Unstacked over on Substack. Both of these places offer monthly bonus content including bonus episodes and are a great way to support the work of this black woman run independent podcast. Quite frankly, I could not make the show without you. For those wondering, the Stacks Pack on Patreon is focused on a literary community. We have a discord, we do monthly book club meetups and we host a year long reading challenge called the Mega Challenge. If you're looking to meet and mingle with other book lovers, patreon.com thestax is the place for you over on Unstacked. I'm sharing my hot takes and bad attitude twice a week with posts and many podcasts about pop culture book news and I'm giving you insights into my reading life. With many reviews, rankings and the books I'm looking forward to reading. This is a place for folks who just want more bookish content. And what's great about Substack is there are both free and paid options. Go to Tracy thomas.substack.com to subscribe, head to Patreon Substack or both and show this podcast some love. For just $5 a month you get a bunch of bookish extras and you get to know you're helping to make the Stacks possible. Hey guys, it's Tracy and anyone who knows me knows that I love a little drama. Especially when it's not min that's why I have to tell you about a podcast that I'm obsessed with. It is called Petty Crimes. It's a weekly comedy podcast where best friends Kira and Griff take the most ridiculous minor squabbles and turn them into full blown investigations. From stolen food to small town drama. They dig into the petty stuff that we all deal with and trust me, the show's hilarious. Petty Crimes is available every Tuesday. Wherever you listen to your podcast, you won't want to miss it. Okay, we're back. I feel like I'm doing a lot of plot analysis, but we'll kind of going through this fast. Lolita, or Dolores and Humbert go on two humongous road trips where he takes her to all these different hotels and rapes her across the country. So much driving, so much Americana. Did any of this have an impression on you of like the driving and the suburbia of it all?

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah, I mean, I think it. You really do have to understand this book from the perspective of him writing about America. You know, the fact that he wrote it in English too, and then translated into Russian, I think that he really was getting in the mindset of I'm writing about, you know, the banality of America and American culture, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes. It's like such a study on America. And it's like, I think he's like sort of shaping Americana in real time. Like in the 1950s, he's writing about cars. Right. And like, I feel like, you know, we think so little of cars now because they're such an everyday thing, but like, in the 50s, have like driving cross country and like, sort of having this like, luxurious car lifestyle is now how we think about, like jet setters. Like, it's a it. He's shaping the myth of America. You know, they're going through these suburbs, they're going to all these like, beautiful little bedroom communities. And. And that is shaping, like, what white America looks like. And like, they're not going to New York City, they're not going to Chicago, they're going to these, they're going to Ramsdale, they're going to, you know, these little places. And I think it's like he's crafting a version of America for, for America in real time, like leaving his stamp on America in a lot of ways.

[Ira Madison III]

And. Shall we? Oh, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, no, go ahead. I say what I find interesting.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah. Which I also find it made me think of the X Files, you know, I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

The X Files. Say more.

[Ira Madison III]

Well, the X Files, in essence, is this show about, you know, Mulder and Scully and they're investigating, you know, supernatural odd cases, you know, but it's. There's this great essay by one of my former co workers from MTV News, Brian Phillips at Grantland, which just talks about the time period when X Files was written, you know, and it's like pre Internet really, you know, like in the early. It's in the infancy of the Internet. It's when there are still small towns in America that are sort of not connected to each other. You know, you can. Something weird can be happening in a small town and you might not hear about it, you know, like, you might not hear about this strange case that's happening in this town in Ohio, but now you'd hear about it because of the Internet, et cetera, whatever, you know. But, right, you're going from small town to small town in these small communities. And I think that it's really just about what. What can creep into a community. You know, they're. They're driving around these small, you know, conclaves and they're. This Humber evil is like traveling from town to town, you know, and that was happening in the 50s, you know, and I think these small white communities were concerned, you know, about like black people, you know, like sundown towns, et cetera. Right. But I think the story is really just about the evil that sort of can exist within a straight white male and this young girl who's with him and like, he's going into these towns and, you know, or you assume that's just his daughter, you know, and like. But it's like, it's like what people think about. It's about what people think about what you see, for instance, and just about what was allowed to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Ira Madison III]

Travel across America in this time. I mean, it's no, I mean, it's no coincidence that, you know, the. The Green Book had to exist during then, right. You know, like a town that it was safe for black people to travel to if you're doing a road trip. But he was going anywhere.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. And I think, like, who we trust? Who is the reliable. Per. The reliable narrator of real life, right? Like, you're not going to question this, like, European man and his daughter. They're like, you know, it's safe. This is a safe place. Nothing bad happens here. And I think not to jump ahead to sort of like my final thesis of the book, but I think more than anything else that Nabokov is trying to do with this book. I think he is trying to say Humbert Humbert and what he does to Dolores Hayes is as normal as everything else in America. It is as normal as a road trip. It is as normal as a suburban community. All of the abuse, all of the harm done to children by. By these. By these abusers is. It is ordinary. Humbert actually isn't special, and he makes him ordinary by letting us into that world, but he also then makes her ordinary, right? Like, all of these abusers that we have now today, all of their victims are made ordinary because there's so many of them, right? Like, that. This whole thing is, like, fundamental to the American story. In the same way that a road trip is that a suburban town is like. And I think, like, that to me is, like, what this book is about is like, this icky shit that makes you as a reader feel uncomfortable is nothing new. It's been going on forever, and it's going on right now. And if you turn away, if you ignore it, you're no better than the people who didn't protect Dolores. Right. Like, and I think that's, like. I think that. I think that the driving and the going to these places and the constantly being sort of on the move, but also talking to people and being around people and her making friends with other kids in these different places, I think all of that plays into the ordinariness of. Of. Of what I see is what, like, Nabokov's trying to do.

[Ira Madison III]

I think it's incredible. I think you really hit the nail on the head of, like, why you should be teaching this novel now, too, you know, Because I'm thinking of this video I saw, you know, at, you know, like a. Like a county where they were, you know, trying to ban, you know, you know, banning drag queens and things from doing readings and stuff like that, you know, and someone was testifying, you know, that drag queens of, you know, like, our people, they're in our community, they babysit our kids, et cetera, you know. But people like the church or like, other men, like, in this community who have abused kids or women, you know, like, we turn a blind to them or, you know, that they exist and you just sort of move on with it, you know, And I think it's really an important thing about just looking at what's woven into the fabric of America instead of looking at what feels odd and what feels different, you know? Yes. It's the familiar you should be afraid of.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. The ordinary. That's so right. Okay, let's talk a little bit about Dolores slash Lolita. I listened to Jamie Loftus's podcast, the Lolita podcast that came out a few years, that was, like, really long. It's like 12 episodes or 10 episodes. Like 12 hours. It's so long. She talks about the book. She talks about, like, the Lana Del Rey of Lolita. She goes, like, deep into the culture. But one of the things that she talks about is the difference between Dolores and Lolita. And she basically describes it as, like, Dolores is the actual child, and Lolita is this, like, fantasy that's, like, the parts of her that Humbert has created. Whereas, like, Dolores is the person. And I found that to be, like, a really astute observation, and I think maybe. Maybe not a hard one to make, but one that I hadn't quite been able to articulate for myself. But I really liked it. And in doing that, it made me think a lot about the title of the book. This is a book about Humbert Humbert told from Humbert Humbert's story about his relationship with a child named Dolores, but it is called Lolita. And I want to know what you make of that, if anything.

[Ira Madison III]

I definitely see that. You know, I think that if, you know, Nabokov's history, you know, and that he was molested as a child. You know, I think that you sort of have to take how he writes Humbert, you know, as. He doesn't like this person, you know. And so I think that there's definitely probably this compartmentalization of, you know, like, creating two characters, maybe almost even, like he had two characters, two different cells, you know, in his own mind.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think that the erasing of Dolores from the book is. Is the whole, you know, point of it. Well, if you think of. Yeah, I think it's the point of it, but I think also, like, you and I both have background in, like, the theater, and I think as far as, like, the subtext or, like, the intentionality of the character, the whole driving force behind Humbert is to erase Dolores from the story and to have us be so interested in Lolita that we forget that there is a human being child whose life was ruined. And so I think, like, you're able.

[Ira Madison III]

To romanticize Lolita exactly another way some people do. You know, it's. Well, how he's able to get away with the. I was seduced, you know, by her. You know, like. Like, you're thinking of Lolita. He's describing Lolita to the audience of someone he's created because that story is easier than describing Dolores.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Because the center of the book, though, it's told by Humbert. And it's about his relationship with Dolores is the idea of Lolita, and it's how he's able to sort of justify the whole thing. It's also, I think, why he goes back and forth between the first and third person when he's talking about himself. Right. It's like. Like he can distance himself from the worst parts of himself. But I think, like, this. Again, the skill of Nabokov to pull off the feeling that Dolores is there, but also is not like that she's been erased in parts. And, like, just to give us glimpses of her throughout the book is really, again, an impressive feat for an author to, like, have a character who is on stage or on screen the whole time, basically by this man's side, and to feel like we don't know her at all by the end of the book, to feel like, who is Dolores? And we just get these little chilling moments, like the part at the end of part one, where she has nowhere else to go and she comes back, or when she's, like, when. When he's overhearing her talking to her friend about death and he is, like, surprised by her answer. And, like, that's, like. We get these, like, glimpses of. Of Dolores that are just, like, just really devastating. Like her crying in bed every night. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I just. I think, like, that's a real. I mean, I don't know. I don't think people do that well. Like, I don't think it's easy to erase a character that's present.

[Ira Madison III]

Yes. And then, of course, there's, you know, the. The letter at the end, you know, the. Of it all and him laying, you know, sort of this crime on a different man that he's killed.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Which is, to my point of it being so ordinary that there's literally a whole second pedophile in this book. Like. Like, I'm just like, this isn't. Humbert is so not special. There's a whole other Humbert that we could have a whole other book about named Claire Quilty. We just don't get that book, like, that he's dead. Instead, like, it's just. It's so crazy. Okay, I want to talk about the most disturbing parts of this book for you. If you had any parts where you were like, this is. You've really. Because we talked about how, like, a lot of the sexual acts aren't on the page.

[Ira Madison III]

I think maybe just the parts where, you know, where they're laying in bed together are very weird. And the hotel room Stuff, you know, that stuff is just disturbing to me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think I was most disturbed by the licking of the eye. That was really. That bridge too far just feels disgusting. I'm just like.

[Ira Madison III]

It just felt weird.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it was. It irked me. And then do you remember the part where he's talking about marrying Lolita and then having a Lolita 2 and then having a Lolita 3? The grandchild. That was pretty. That was pretty disgusting. But I. To your point about, like, not writing about the sex act? I think. I mean, I think that's so intentional because I think he wanted the sexual abuse to feel almost boring or mundane and, like, to remove the salaciousness out of it so that it does feel ordinary and pedestrian. Right. Like, both. Humbert wants to do that because we're his jury. But I think Nabokov, again, it's like, all to. The case of, like, this is nothing special. This happens to children all the time. Like, how dare you act like this is news to you.

[Ira Madison III]

His essay to. On Lolita. Just also discuss, you know, when you're writing something that's like, a taboo topic or, you know, like, lewd or whatever, you know, in America, like, you know, he says so many people expected, you know, a book like this to get increasingly, you know, like, yes, gross and, like, crazy and descriptive in, like, the abuse and everything and the sex. But it does it, you know, and, like, he sort of detests that kind of writing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this book originally is published in France at sort of like a pornographic publisher before it gets picked up by Putnam and Sons, or I think it's just Putnam at the time. Sun has taken over, but I think maybe there's more Sons to come. So even, like, the way the place it's published lends to the belief that it's going to be this really salacious thing, like this really pornographic thing.

[Ira Madison III]

He's playing with expectations the whole time, you know. I also think it's very interesting, too, that he writes sort of at one point too, that for me, a work of fiction exists only insofar as it affords me what I shall bluntly call aesthetic bliss. That is a sense of being somehow somewhere connected with other states of being where art, curiosity, tenderness, kindness, ecstasy is the norm. There are not many such books. All the rest is either topical trash or what some call the literature of ideas, which very often is topical trash coming in huge blocks of plaster that are carefully transmitted from age to age until somebody comes along with a hammer and takes a good crack at Balzac. At Gorky. At man. So he's also being like, I'm not trying to write, you know, a lesson for people.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, he does not want to write a lesson. He does not feel that that is the job. He's an author.

[Ira Madison III]

No, he.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. And like, he. He famously hates everybody, I guess. Like, there's like, I found a list on the Internet of just, like, things he said about people. It's like. It's like mediocrity. What My favorite one is what he calls Bertolt Brecht. He calls Brecht a non entity.

[Ira Madison III]

Oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

He calls Oscar Wilde a rank moralist, which to me feels like the most personal one of all of them. Like, he's really distinct disgusted by the idea that any work should have any lesson to teach anyone. Like that. That is. That is his or any author's job. Which I think gets to sort of like my last really big question for us, which is about the art being conflated with the artist. Because I think one of the things that happens with this book is that people walk away from it hating Nabokov, thinking that he is some sort of a creep, that he's a pedophile, that he is, you know, exploiting this fictional child, or that he, like, gets off on this. And I think, like, first of all, there is evidence that he was sexually abused as a child from his uncle. I will link to that article, and that. That he probably is more in line with the lowly, like, exploring those experiences from the side of Dolores versus from Humbert.

[Ira Madison III]

But also, like, which makes sense, you know, that. I mean, it's almost very Toni Morrison, in effect, you know, the way that she, you know, can get into the minds of characters and write about but traumas that she's experienced, et cetera. Baldwin has written, you know, if you're reading another country, the opening of that, you know, is about, like, an assault, you know, and I think it's. It makes so much sense that someone who would experience that as a child would write about that, but also write about it not from their perspective. Write about it from the perspective of this other person.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Yes. And I think to, like, try to, you know, not. Not to ascribe anything to him, but, like, that there would be an impulse to want to understand what happened to you better or to at least fabricate an understanding, to at least, like, make a version of it that maybe makes sense or even is, like, fun to play with. Like, I sometimes feel like, you know, writers talk about writing villains and how. How much fun it is. I Know, actors talk about how playing villains is like, you know, everybody wants to play Richard iii. He's the great villain. You know, like, that there's something for. For an artist in the ugly and the disgusting that they want to get inside. And he even says in the how to be a good reader essay like that a writer's job is to be a storyteller, a teacher, an enchanter. But the last thing the enchanter is what makes a writer great. Yeah, like, that is the piece of it. It's not the storytelling or the teaching. It's the. It's the magic of the writing.

[Ira Madison III]

And he hated Freud so much that, you know, he probably. That he, you know, it's probably exactly because he was. Freud had him pegged for why he was writing this book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, that's exactly right. And like, I think. I think, you know, it's interesting to write a book like this and to, like, allow yourself to be come the villain, even if your intent or not your intent. Even if. I mean, if your intent is just to do aesthetic bliss. But that he really becomes such a topic in conversation about this particular work in a way that, like, it's inextricably linked to him in a way that some books are not.

[Ira Madison III]

They need rappers like him, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Nikki Chun Li.

[Ira Madison III]

He was the Nicki of his time. Maybe.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, for sure. For sure. Do you think this book could be published now as is?

[Ira Madison III]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

You do?

[Ira Madison III]

Yes. Honestly, I think. Because the same. I think the same thing. To bring Up America and Psycho again. I think that the idea of banning books now is obviously very conservative and Republican, etcetera, You know. But, yeah, the idea of people getting widespread upset enough about a book where it's not being published, you know, I think that books just aren't so much woven into the fabric of society anymore, you know, with, like, tv, everything, you know, like, this movie would probably get bad, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, sure.

[Ira Madison III]

If it weren't based on the book, you know, if it were an original movie. Yeah, it would be getting bad, you know, but now I think that, you know, no one would be. I think it's hard to get a book outright. Like, we're not publishing this, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think the book could be published now. I don't think it has an audience. I don't think it's named a classic. I don't think it has staying power now. I think people. I think people now are like, that's disgusting. I don't even want to think about it. I think the only reason it's something that people even read now is because it has the stamp of classic on it. And so people feel like they have to deal with it more intensely than they might something new. But I also think it's really interesting because there's so many books that come out now that are published about young people experiencing sexual abuse that are celebrated. I mean, Oprah just had a few years ago, Night Crawling on her book list, and it was about a black girl in Oakland who becomes a sex worker. And it was based off the true story of the police ring where they were, like, raping this child of the Oakland police officers. Like, that's really fucking dark, too. And it's on Oprah's list. And so I think there's something about, like, the racial politics of some of this stuff, too, that we probably don't really have time to get into. But I think that it's there. Like, we reread stories of, like, trans kids who have been sexually abused, and nobody bats an eye about it or says, like, we shouldn't be reading this.

[Ira Madison III]

Because it feels like it's this, you know, like a reclamation, you know, like you're taking back the right, right.

[Tracy Thomas]

And it feels like, like you're doing good work by, like. Like witnessing these things.

[Ira Madison III]

But also someone who is like Nabokov, like, now, you know, writing this book, you know, like, it wouldn't even be the same book, you know, now anyway, you know, because it would be about everything that he was writing about, you know, for, you know, getting into 50s America and, you know, like, exposing, like, the banality of, like, evil in America, you know, I think that it would take a different bent now.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Ira Madison III]

You know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, I think so. I think he would be way ahead of it. Would be the stuff we don't want to touch now, which. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but, yeah, I think you're right.

[Ira Madison III]

I mean, I think it would get into, you know, sort of what you. We opened the podcast talking about, you know, like, you know, the concept of, like, this narrator would be very much aware of. You know, people don't want to hear this, you know, because they're, you know, like, they're. Don't ban others. Ban this book, but don't man other books. You know, I think that would probably be one of the main thrusts of it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think it would be playing on, like, political correctness more.

[Ira Madison III]

Absolutely.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like playing with what. What is allowed, which is to that point. Yeah, I think. I think the. The ways in which. The ways in which certain stories about child abuse are okay and, like, accepted and even celebrated and, like, uplifted and the ways that certain books aren't. I think part of it is because this book is told from the perspective of the abuser, but I think that that is important. Like, we actually need more fiction that gets inside the heads of horrible, horrible people. If the goal of fiction, quote unquote, to some people is to learn and to empathize. Right? Like, we can't only tell the stories of people who have been victimized because they aren't victimized in a vacuum. Like, there are. There are abusers that need to be.

[Ira Madison III]

Dealt with, and there's this whole industry now, you know, just, like, writing books, like, not crawling or, like, other things, or it's just, like writing just sort of, like, you know, hard to read, you know, like, sort of like dark books, you know, and it's sort of like, you write a book like that, and you'll end up on Oprah's list, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Ira Madison III]

And not to degrade that book, you know, but, like, there's a whole, like, there's a whole track for it now.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, like, these, like, sort of, like, books that are about these really hard topics. And I don't. And I like, I don't think trauma.

[Ira Madison III]

Porn books, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, like, trauma. And I don't think that that's wrong. And I think, like, you know, I mean, I personally loved Night Crawling, but I do think that, like, it's beautifully written. But I. Yes, but I do think that there's a safe space to plug that book into where it's like, okay, we can read a book like this. And this isn't implicating us, the reader. This is just us saying the Oakland Police Department is bad. And I'm not part of the Oakland Police Department. But this book says anyone read Lolita, says anyone reading these pages is implicated in some way. And if you turn away, you're as implicated as if you lean into it. Right. Like that. There's no escaping sort of this. This conundrum. And again, I mean, I think that. I think that's probably why it has staying power is, like, it will creep you out in 1955. It will creep you out in 2025. Like, can't wait till my kids are assigned it in high school and I have to play this episode for them and be like, I don't know how to help you. Last, last, last, last thing. And then we'll get out of here. Do you have. Which Cover. Do you have the one with the lips?

[Ira Madison III]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is the 50th anniversary cover. It's like a lady's lips, half of her lips and nose. And I mean, I don't know, it feels very.

[Ira Madison III]

Well, you know what's interesting, it is provocative. You know, it gets the people going. But I always think about book covers just because book covers are always kind of. You know, what if you're an author trying to write a book that, you know, a hit or something. Right. You know, it would kind of behoove you to be in a bookstore looking at covers are just sort of like what publishers are putting out there to get people to read, you know, because I think of, you know, like, probably like when we were. When specifically like when we were younger, like, college era, when a lot of more, like, women's, like, younger literature was coming out and maybe like, like the Gossip Girl, the pretty little liars, etc. Right. The covers of classic books were wild. You know, like, it could be like, how can you make it look like Gossip Girl? Like, how can you appeal to, like, younger women wanting to read these things? And it's sort of like I. Like, there's. I feel like there were so many book covers that I had, like, of things when I was finishing college or, like, becoming an adult, like, getting my, like, bookshelf together or whatever. Right. That I was like, let me find a different version of this book, because I hate this cover.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Yes. I mean, I didn't even know you could find different versions of books until more recently. I was like, oh, I could, like, order a different copy.

[Ira Madison III]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I think this cover works famously. Nabokov did not want any women on the COVID of the book. He wanted it to be, like, pale colors and, like, ocean breezes or just the word Lolita in black on a white thing on a white background. And some covers are that. There's so many different covers. I'm going to link to a Lit Hub article about, like, the best and worst Lolita covers.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah, but that doesn't sell now, though.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, no, but I just think it's so funny that, like, basically every cover of the book is a girl on it. And he was like, please don't do that. And then they were like, okay, thanks for your input.

[Ira Madison III]

Fudge you by the covers are. There's. I saw this one cover from, like, istanbul and, like, 1959. And the woman being held on it won't be held on it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yes.

[Ira Madison III]

She, like, she looks 50.

[Tracy Thomas]

She looks. It's like, it's like, so. Some of them are so weird. There's the other one that's on the audiobook, the Jeremy Irons audiobook, where it's like, legs and saddle shoes and, like, the knees are sort of touching, which I think is, like, kind of a good one, but also, like, I don't know, I. I don't think you can do a good cover for this book at this point. Like, I'd love to see. I'd love to do, like, a Lolita cover contest. Just, like, have people submit to me their picks.

[Ira Madison III]

This Finland cover, crazy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God, there's breasts out.

[Ira Madison III]

Yes. But also, the woman looks like. The woman looks 29.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, she's old.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I think that's the thing. We've really turned Lolita into an adult. I mean, and I feel like that really misses the point. I mean, and also, like, it's become just like, a thing that they call any sort of youngish woman or teen, where they're like, like, Amy Fisher was the Long Island Lolita. And then there's like, yes, like, this. Like, they were calling Bradley Cooper's girlfriend a Lolita. Like, I'm like, she's 22.

[Ira Madison III]

You know what's interesting, too, is, you know, in his last thing, I'll say, like, on his, like, on a book, a book entitled Lolita that he wrote. You know, he writes, you know, like, about angry readers. You know, he's like, one person was sort of like, I think, you know, you probably should have had it, you know, like a lad, Be the leader, you know, seducing. Humber. Humber. I'm like, honestly, that still feels like, you know, like something that hasn't really been tackled, you know, too, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

The abuse of boys by men.

[Ira Madison III]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I think we barely have tackled the abuse of the abusive men towards children since this book in any real way. Like, I don't think it's something. I think, like you said, it's still really taboo. Okay, well, we're out of here. If you want to discuss this book more with me, you need to join the Stacks pack on Patreon by going to patreon.com the stacks. We're going to have book club next week where we're going to talk about this. So if you have things to yell at me about, come on. I'm sure it's going to be hot. And make sure you listen to the rest of today's episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. Get Ira's book Thank you so much for doing this, Ira. Thank you for reading the controversial pick with me. It was so much fun.

[Ira Madison III]

I'm sorry for getting that. What do you call. What do you call your stack?

[Tracy Thomas]

The Stacks Pack. The Stacks Pack.

[Ira Madison III]

I'm sorry for getting the Stacks Pack upset. You know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, they're mad at me.

[Ira Madison III]

That's a controversy.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're going to.

[Ira Madison III]

You can blame me. The man.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes, Ira. He forced this on me. It's not okay. Everyone else, thank you for listening and we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Ira Madison III for joining the podcast. Also, a special thank you to Vanessa DeJesus for helping to make this conversation possible. Now it's the time you've all been waiting for. It's our announcement of our March book club pick. We are going to be reading they will her property, White Women as Slave Owners in the American south by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers. This book is a groundbreaking work of history that examines the role that white women played in American slavery, challenging long held assumptions about their complicity and power in these institutions. It's deeply researched, eye opening, and sure to spark an important conversation. Just in time for Women's History Month, we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 26, and you can tune in next Wednesday, March 5 to find out who our book club guest will be. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram Threads and TikTok and check out our website@the stacks podcast.com Today's episode was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tigirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.