← The Stacks
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- [00:01]
Tracy Thomas
Don't miss Good American Family.
- [00:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
We have a little girl here for adoption. She has dwarfism.
- [00:07]
Tracy Thomas
Starring Ellen Pompeo and Mark Duplass.
- [00:09]
Temby Denton Hurst
Something is off.
- [00:10]
Tracy Thomas
She's just a little girl. You think she's faking?
- [00:12]
Temby Denton Hurst
She has adult teeth. There are signs of puberty.
- [00:15]
Tracy Thomas
Inspired by the shocking stories that tore a family apart. I don't know what's going on. How old are you?
- [00:20]
Temby Denton Hurst
You should get a lawyer. You have no idea how those people hurt this girl.
- [00:25]
Tracy Thomas
The Hulu original series Good American Family premieres March 19th. Streaming on Hulu. I think for me, what was beautiful about getting my master's and being an undergrad was the conversations. Like I loved ma, I love my master's program or and just like advanced study in English, like so much more than I loved my intro classes because it was just like we're all on the same page. We're having these deep conversations. And I think great conversations come out of people who are working from the same shared text. There is so much to be said for really sitting with things that are complicated or sitting with things that are deep or hard or complex. Complex within the company of other people.
- [01:07]
Temby Denton Hurst
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Temby Denton Hurst to the show. Temby is an author and journalist whose work explores beauty, culture and storytelling. She's a staff writer at New York Magazine's the Strategist and the author of the novel Homebodies, a sharp and heartfelt story about ambition, identity, and carving out a space for yourself. She also writes one of my absolute favorite Sub Stacks Extracurricular, where she shares her thoughts on books, culture, and everything else that you've ever wanted someone to talk about. Today, Temby and I talk about her relationship to books, her incredible substack, and why we chose to read they were her property for book club this month. In case you missed the announcement, our book club pick for March is They Were her Property White Women as Slave Owners in the American south by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers Tempe will be back on Wednesday, March 26 to discuss the book with me, so be sure to read along and then tune in. Quick reminder Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link and the show notes. And listen, if you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, I have two awesome ways for you to support the work of the show and get yourself some perks. Like bonus episodes, extra hot takes from me, reading rankings, Discord Channel and the like. You can either join the Stacks Pack on Patreon by going to patreon.com thestax stacks to be part of this incredible reading community, or you can get even more of me by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com the choice is yours or do both. And now I have to give my final shout out for our newest members of the Stacks Pack, a perk that we've had for years and years and years that is finally gone. These are our final members who join the Stacks Pack who will have their names read aloud. So here we go. Thank you to Michelle laforge, Aaron Taylor, Amanda Jaina Watson, Cole A. Cherise Dogan, Meg DiCarlo, Marcella Kissamis, Andrea F. Madeline Sarah A. Jennifer Lynn, Ainsley McKee, Stephanie Henry King, Rachel M. Denny Harbaugh, Hannah Oliver Depp, Angela strman, and A. McY. Thank you all so much for joining the Stacks Pack, and thank you to everyone for supporting the show. Okay, now it's my time for my conversation with temby, Denton Hurst. All right, everybody. I'm so excited. I always say I'm excited, but today I'm really excited. I'm joined today by. Don't tell anybody else. My favorite person on Substack, author, journalist all around. Just like smart, wonderful, human 10B Denton Hurst, whose latest book, her debut book came out in 2022. 2023.
- [03:55]
Tracy Thomas
3.
- [03:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
It's called Homebodies. It's a novel which we're going to talk about. But before we get to that, temby, welcome to the Stacks.
- [04:02]
Tracy Thomas
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.
- [04:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
I'm so happy you're here. I'm just, like, such a fan. Like, real, Like, I really reached out, like, with big fan girl energy. And you are not scared of that. So I'm honored to have you.
- [04:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, no, I'm a big proponent of being a fan of people. Like, I am the biggest fan girl. When I love something, I'm like, don't be afraid to tell people that you love their stuff. Like, people need to hear that. I always need to hear it.
- [04:25]
Temby Denton Hurst
I think that's right. I'm like, anytime someone tells me they like anything, I do. I'm like, me.
- [04:30]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my God.
- [04:31]
Temby Denton Hurst
Same, like, oh, my God. Thank you so much. Okay, before we get into, like, your professional life, will you tell us just a little bit about, like, who you are, where you come from, and maybe just, like, a little sample of your relationship to books?
- [04:45]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, for sure. So my name is temby. I am from two places. I'm both from Brooklyn and also from the DMV area. And I say that because I was born in New York, raised in New York, but then my dad lives in D.C. and so it was like a lot of back and forth, weekends, long weekends, summer spent in dc, like going to, you know, the free dc, free public camps, you know, over the summers and things like that. And then I moved to D.C. when I was 13, and so I did high school there. And so I really feel like I have this kind of double, like, citizenship of both places. I'm very.
- [05:22]
Temby Denton Hurst
Can you pick a favorite?
- [05:23]
Tracy Thomas
No, I think my favorite is DC. And the reason why I say that is because DC's just extremely black. And New York is very black, too, but black in a different way. And also I think because of the gentrification of Brooklyn, I have a harder time. And DC's been very. Is gentrified as well, and, like, has its own thing. But there's. I just. I think I have a harder time with New York. And also because I was born here, raised here, I feel like it just feels like home. You know what I mean? Like, I have feel very neutral. I feel very neutral to New York in a way that I felt interesting, more attached. Like, DC felt different to me than New York.
- [05:55]
Temby Denton Hurst
You were, like, going there.
- [05:57]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. So I think that I always have this kind of affection for D.C. that. I don't know. I'm very territorial and protective of being a New Yorker. I just. At the same time, I think because I am from here, I just feel kind of like. I mean, it's whatever, you know?
- [06:12]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. Do you live in Brooklyn now?
- [06:14]
Tracy Thomas
I'm in Queens.
- [06:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
You're in Queens.
- [06:16]
Tracy Thomas
And I love Queens. Queens. I love Queens. I'm a big Queens girl now. Now I'm like, you know, because Brooklyn is cool, but, like, I don't know, it's changed.
- [06:24]
Temby Denton Hurst
I also feel like when you're from Brooklyn, you can say that, like, so, like, Brooklyn's cool, whatever. Like, so chill. Whereas, like, if you weren't from Brooklyn, you wouldn't be as, like, chill about it. Like, like, if you had moved there, you'd be like, brooklyn, so cool. But, like, you've been there, done that. Like, I'm from Oakland and I love Oakland, but whenever people like, oh, my God, the B area, Oakland. And I'm like, yeah, like Oakland school, like, whatever. I can chill about it in a way that, like, if I was visiting, I'd be like, oh, my God, Oakland's amazing.
- [06:52]
Tracy Thomas
No, yeah, exactly. I feel like it's very similar, I think. And also, everybody I know who's, like, from Brooklyn is, like, trying to leave low key. Or they just are there and they're like, oh, you know, like, it's not the same. Like, I think that people who are from New York kind of all have the same. We all talk about it in a similar fan. In a similar way.
- [07:10]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [07:11]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, unless we're talking to people from the Bronx, in which case it's Brooklyn forever.
- [07:14]
Temby Denton Hurst
Like, it's on site. Okay. We're not saying anything bad about Brooklyn to those guys.
- [07:20]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, absolutely not. Yeah, no. Like, then. Then I'm big. I'm Brooklyn's biggest fan. I'm like, yeah, I never go to the Bronx. What are you talking about? Like, my relationship to books. I really owe that to my parents. Like, I was the kid at Barnes and Noble at the library. I still probably owe some Southampton's library so much money because they would just let me take out so many books at a time. And I always did that. Like, I was the kid who was like, I'm gonna take out 30 books every two weeks type of situation.
- [07:49]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [07:49]
Tracy Thomas
And I just loved Barnes and Noble. My first book that I read is. And we can bleep this out with. We don't have to, but, you know, like, we can't.
- [07:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
Christian put a bleep sound in there.
- [08:02]
Tracy Thomas
I read really, really early. Like, I think they probably would call me, like, hyperlexic at this. You know what I mean? If we were to be looking at it at this point. Like, I was reading at, like, almost like a 12th grade reading level when I was in the second grade. So I was like, oh, my gosh.
- [08:19]
Temby Denton Hurst
Was school boring for you?
- [08:20]
Tracy Thomas
It was extremely boring. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I like this.
- [08:24]
Temby Denton Hurst
And the other kids were like, ch. Ch. Says ch. Ch. And you're like, super cal. Fragilistic bitch.
- [08:32]
Tracy Thomas
Pretty much. It was. Yeah. So it was like, school was pretty boring for me on that level. And so I spent a lot of time, like, writing even when I was a kid. And I went to this kind of almost like extreme Montessori Elementary School. So my mom, like, packed us up when we were eight and moved us out to the Hamptons. And so I did like, middle part of middle. I mean, elementary school in Southampton and, like, Bridgehampton. And I went to this school called Hay Ground, which was just like an. Just like, felt like very much like a rich people experiment, you know? Like, it was Montessori to an extreme level in the way that like, we were obviously, we're calling our teachers all by their first names. But then beyond that, it's like there were no real. There was no real structure. Like, we had math, but we had no homework and we had like every day you just, it was all self guided.
- [09:16]
Temby Denton Hurst
Did experiment work?
- [09:18]
Tracy Thomas
I think it worked for someone like me. I don't think for you. I feel it doesn't work for everyone. I ended up going to a high school that kind of built upon that in a way with like more rigor. So it's like I've kind of been in that education system for that kind of educate, that kind of approach to education, which is like high school was a little more formalized but still very like almost like a liberal arts education. Like from when I was. And there was like some patchy years in there. Like, I went to public school like for seventh grade. I went to public school for eighth grade and there was, you know, like, it's, it's been all over the place. We've moved around. But all of the things, all that to say I was reading from like a very, very young age and like reading and consuming media that like, was very outside of like my, my comprehension level, even though I could read and I could see what was happening. Like, my understanding of the work was not really sophisticated yet, you know, and.
- [10:11]
Temby Denton Hurst
It wasn't like age appropriate.
- [10:13]
Tracy Thomas
Absolutely not. Like, I was probably 11 years old when I read Push by Sapphire.
- [10:17]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [10:17]
Tracy Thomas
You know, and like, the color. I was reading, like the color purple.
- [10:20]
Temby Denton Hurst
Sure.
- [10:21]
Tracy Thomas
I was in. I was like in seventh grade when I read Pride and Prejudice, you know, and I was like, yeah, there were these very. And I didn't like, I've since reread all of those things and been like, oh, oh, wow. Okay. Because, you know, at the time I was just really like, I was in, in the deep, in deep water.
- [10:37]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. You were just like, look at me, I can read this. But you weren't really grasping what was going on. And then you, like, went back and were like, oh, okay, yeah.
- [10:46]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I mean, like, I understood it in more like, basic ways. Like, I could understand, like, I didn't understand the color purple as this like, very sophisticated story about queerness and liberation. When I was 10, I was just kind of like, oh my God, Shug is licking Celie's nipple. What the is going on? Yeah. You know, like, I was more like.
- [11:06]
Temby Denton Hurst
You knew what was happening, but you didn't get the, like, themes or like, concepts exactly.
- [11:11]
Tracy Thomas
I hadn't lived life yet, so I just didn't know what was going on.
- [11:14]
Temby Denton Hurst
Well, I read it in high school, and I was just like, oh, are they lesbians? Do you know what I mean? Like, like, so I think it takes a while to, like, understand. Like, it does take life to understand a lot of these adult books that, like, they make you. That they make you read when you're young. It's like, well, I don't know. Like, they're hooking up. That's what I got.
- [11:32]
Tracy Thomas
But it's interesting because I do think when I did get to high school, I had, like, a very. I did have a more sophisticated approach because I was like.
- [11:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
Too right. You've been reading it for years.
- [11:41]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Like, my. I was in a book club with my English high school teachers, and they would, like, ask me, so, Tempe, what books do you think should be in the curriculum? Because I read, like, one of the books that they had us all read was Nervous Conditions by Tsitsi Dangaremba, which I loved. She's an incredible writer. But it was like, I was the only one who understood it. Like, I was like. And I was in class, like, this was probably 10th grade, and I was just like, you know, I really think that there's these clear themes around eating disorders, and we should really be. And everyone's looking around. Like, I would be in class talking to myself a lot. Like, without.
- [12:18]
Temby Denton Hurst
I definitely had a different high school experience than you. I was not an early reader, let me put it that way. So I was coming to the work slow and low.
- [12:28]
Tracy Thomas
It'd be like that, though. I mean. And that's totally fair. I feel like we all, like. I mean, like, we all ended up in the same relative place.
- [12:35]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know, we're talking now, so.
- [12:37]
Tracy Thomas
Exactly.
- [12:38]
Temby Denton Hurst
But you would be like. I would raise my hand in class, and you'd probably be like, this dumb. Does not understand what's happening.
- [12:44]
Tracy Thomas
No, I just. I feel like, for me, I just felt like, almost more of, like, a intellectual loneliness because I was like, I want to talk about these things and, like, I want to get really deep in what I'm seeing and, like, because I think fiction is so important in helping us understand the world and, like, helping us to kind of articulate things that we didn't yet know prior to. Like, I think it's James Baldwin who was like, you think that you are by yourself and then you read. You know, like, that's a very bad, you know, summary of what he said. It was very. It was more eloquent than that. But he, like, it was to that Effect. And I think that that's so true. I really do think that. I, like, every time I've seen myself on the page, I think I've been kind of bowled over by the fact that that's possible. Like, yeah, it's just, like, really. It creates this, like, this really great connective tissue. And also, reading black writers for me, gave me heritage in a way that I thought was really important, in a ways that I find really important still. It's like knowing that you have lineage, both fictive and real, is so important.
- [13:50]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yes.
- [13:50]
Tracy Thomas
And so, like, I still remember being in college and reading Here Comes the Sun by Nicole Dennis Benn, and just being, like, bowled over. Cause I'm Jamaican and so. Well, Jamaican. Am black. My dad is black. My mom's Jamaican. But that's neither here nor there. But, like, seeing black, queer Jamaican people, like a black lesbian, Jamaican woman, was, like, very different because homosexuality was not something that we were like. They were not like, oh, yeah, that's great. Like, we love you, right? Yeah. Books have changed my life in so many ways.
- [14:19]
Temby Denton Hurst
Do you remember the first time you saw yourself on the page where you were like, oh, hello.
- [14:26]
Tracy Thomas
I think it's hard to say. My first instinct, even though I know that it's probably not true, is Their Eyes Are Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston. I read that book when I was in 11th grade that, like, blew my whole world open. I was just like, oh, like, this is different. I think what I loved about what Zora did and was doing was just, like, writing about this wild woman who is, like, finding herself. And I think I really identified with that in 11th grade because I was finding myself and just. I don't know, I think I was just kind of, like, resisting a lot of the ways that, like, black women are viewed. You know, like, I was black, I'm fat. I'm. All of the things in this, like, very white environment and in which there is no, like, real language around my experience. And not that the. Not that their eyes were watching God was, like, mapping on that one to one, but it was just like, this is a woman who is, like, navigating all of these places and spaces in a way that's, like, fairly fearless and not without its own heartbreak and not without her own emotions. And she doesn't, like, escape the ups and downs of life, but she, like, survives in a way.
- [15:32]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [15:33]
Tracy Thomas
And I don't know, I thought that there was something really beautiful about that. And so, yeah, JD Is an important. She's an important character to me.
- [15:40]
Temby Denton Hurst
I love that. I want to ask you about a project or a thing that you wrote on Substack that sort of is how this all got kicked off, is you wrote a piece in January on. On Inauguration Day called a Book List for Precedented Times. And you talked, and I'm gonna have you talk about it more, but you shared a bunch of books that you're planning to read in the immediate future because you think that they're going to help your understanding. And one way or another about Gesticulates widely. I want to know sort of, like, where this idea came to, like, why you felt it was important to put this list together. And also, I want you to talk a little bit about the reading these books, like, in Community, and the sort of invitation that you ext your subs about these books. And for people who are like, how did this lead to this conversation? I commented on Tempe's work and was like, I would love to read. They were her property with you. Just, like, as, like, strangers on the Internet together. And then I was like, wait, we should do it for book club for Women's History Month. Like, real trolls. And so that's how. That's how this happened, was I sort of, like, pitched 10 beyond this, but, yes. Will you talk about sort of this piece and. And why you want to read in Community these. These specific books or these book types of books?
- [16:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I mean, I. A lot of people kind of make college sound useless at this point. They're like, oh, there's no point, you know? And I understand it. However, I think for me, what was beautiful about getting my master's and being an undergrad grad was the conversations. Like, I loved ma I loved my master's program. It was. And just, like, advanced study in English, like, so much more than I loved my intro classes, because it was just like, we're all on the same page. We're having these deep conversations. Things are, like, jumping off from the work. We're stretching our brains. I would always leave class feeling like my skin was on fire. Like, I would just feel like I was buzzing. Like, I would feel like I was high. I was like, this is amazing. Like, there's nothing better to me than good conversation. Like, I really love it. And I think it's important for us to also have context. And I think big conversation, great conversations come out of people who are working from the same shared text. And there is so much to be said for really sitting with things that are complicated or sitting with things that are de. Deep or hard or, like, Complex within the company of other people. Because reading it alone is great, but it's kind of solitary. And so I love doing things as a group. Like, I love. I can never do anything by myself. I'm always like, oh, can, like, you know the girl who always has someone go with her to the bathroom? That is me. But, like, for every single facet of my life, I'm like, we should do this together. You know, like, we should do that together. Like, I'm doing this thing. Do you want to come? Like, I'm.
- [18:23]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [18:24]
Tracy Thomas
Every research study about friendship right now is always like, you should just do, like, casual things with your friends. Nothing, like, no agenda. It doesn't have to be dinner. Just, like, go walk around together. And I'm like, I have been living this life.
- [18:35]
Temby Denton Hurst
You live that lifestyle.
- [18:37]
Tracy Thomas
I'm that person. And so I think the book. I think I just apply the same idea to books. And also, I think it's good for people to read nonfiction together. Like, I think a lot of book clubs are very focused when we think about book club fiction, which is its own genre even. It is very, you know, like, it's a thriller or it's a deep. A text about a historical fiction text, or it's something about, like, someone in a distant place or whatever, and they're like, oh, let's talk about these themes. But I think a nonfiction book club is great for other reasons, especially when it comes to contextualizing our moment. And I think in talking about they were her property. I'm excited for us to read that together because it's. We've reached a point. A high water mark, if you will. I think that's right. And I think that what I love about that book is that it is contextualizing white women's role in that moment in a way that I think has often been, I think, obscured.
- [19:36]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [19:36]
Tracy Thomas
In ways that are both intentional and collaborative.
- [19:40]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [19:41]
Tracy Thomas
And also unintentional because of. In some ways unintentional because of, like, misogyny and the focus on, like, the men.
- [19:50]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [19:50]
Tracy Thomas
But I. I mean, I think I'm just very struck by the fact that, like, what Martha Washington brought to her marriage was George Washington with slaves. And thinking about how, like, white women have always had human beings as currency as their way through to navigate social hierarchy. Like, they didn't own land, they own people. And I think for those conversations, like, we need to be having those conversations. That's the ancestry. And even if that's not the literal ancestry, like, even if they are not, you know, Their family has not been here since the 1700s or the 1600s or whatever it is. It's like, this is the tradition you've been adopted into. And so it's.
- [20:25]
Temby Denton Hurst
This is what it's built on, regardless of if it's your family specifically or not.
- [20:30]
Tracy Thomas
Absolutely. And so I'm excited for Women's History Month to be talking about that kind of history, but I think that those are things that like, lead to conversations that are like, okay, like, let's confront, let's discuss, let's ponder, let's draw connections between that kind of social violence and what we're seeing now. You know, I think it just really opens up a lot of those conversations in a really great way.
- [20:54]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to talk about the book. It's been one that's sort of been on my list that I sort of have just, like, not wanted to read.
- [21:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [21:02]
Temby Denton Hurst
Because I've been a little intimidated by it, even though I've only ever heard, like, amazing things about it. And I like to read academic texts. It's like, I read, I read a few books, like, you know, like serious academic books every once in a while, but for some reason, this one I've owned it for. I have it in hardcover, so I've owned it since it came out. I'm like, too scared to read it. So I'm so excited we're going to do that. And I love, I love this sort of project that you've opened up to all of us. Because I obviously, as a person who talks about books with other people for their work, I couldn't agree more. And one of the things that I think is special about our book club is that we do read serious nonfiction books. Like, we do read history. We're not just doing book club books, if you will. We're doing, you know, Ruha Benjamin. We're doing like Pulitzer Prize winning books about prison riots. Like, I think that that's what makes it fun and exciting is like, when the book club is willing to go in all different directions and, like, everyone can sort of humble themselves and learn things and figure things out. And, you know, if I've learned nothing else from doing this show, it's that I get to be the stupidest person in the room while figuring out all of these book books publicly. Which when someone sends me an email, it's like, oh, yeah, Tracy, actually, it was this. I'm like, okay, thanks.
- [22:18]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, one thing I'm excited about and I'm hoping that is, like, something that is becoming more. I don't want to use. I hate the word normalized, but becomes more commonplace is intellectual curiosity and, like, being curious out loud and being wrong out loud. My favorite thing to say is that perfectionism is a tenet of white supremacy. And so, because that's the case, like, the idea that we have to be perfect or we have to know everything on the first go, I think really stops people from ever even approaching doing something difficult, doing something hard, like reading something that feels outside of the bounds of their understanding. So, I mean, I'm also doing this, like, black Marxism read along on. In the newsletter on extracurricular. And I'm like, this is hard. Like, I was telling people. I'm like, I read it three times. So if you need to read it three times, that's totally fine. I was like, if you need to read it a fourth time, a fifth time, whatever, you know? And I'm like, just. If you're like, this is what I think it means, even if it doesn't mean that, like, that's fine. I think people are kind of afraid to, like, learn and fail and whatever. And I'm like, those are things that we shouldn't be afraid of. Those are things we should welcome. Because you're expanding your understanding. You know, I'm like, I love to be wrong, you know, Like, I mean, not really. I'm a Virgo, but. But I'm always like, if. If one day, God forbid, knock on wood, someone's like, tempe, you said this thing, and it was very offensive for this reason, I'm like, oh, I'm totally open to that, because I cannot pretend the most, you know, And I think that some people are, like, afraid to read or engage or have certain conversations because they're afraid to be wrong. But I think that if you're in community with people who are like, everyone's there in good faith. Everyone is there to be intellectually curious. I think it can be a really. I think it can kind of radiate outward into other conversations and into other facets of life where people are open to asking more questions and open to being wrong.
- [24:10]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, I want to stay on curiosity for a second because you just launched a new project podcast called Silly, short for syllabus, but also maybe, like, a little bit of silly vibes. Yes. With a friend. And. And one of the things that you all say is, like, it's a place for curiosity and criticism or, like, critique and curiosity. And I just. I mean, things that speak to my soul. Critique and curiosity. I feel like, those are, like, the two. Those. Those are the two tenets of my life, plus being silly. So I was like. I was like, this is. I listened to the first episode. There's only one out so far. It's coming out every other week. But I'm so excited about it, and I want you to tell my. Our listeners here about it, because I know they are going to. I mean, it was already thrown in our discord. The day it came out. Someone already put it in the discord, and I was literally like, well, I've already listened to it, so I would be to it. I didn't want to tell you guys about it yet. I'm so excited. But will you tell us a little bit about Silly and, like, why y'all want to do it and what you hope it's going to be?
- [25:12]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. So M.B.A. and I are like. We're friendly. Like, we were just Instagram friends. And I, like, came to, like, when Homebodies came out, like, I. They asked me to, like, she was doing a book club situation, and she was like, oh, come talk to us. And so then from then, we just kind of stayed connected. Then we. She. She has a podcast. She launched one called.
- [25:30]
Temby Denton Hurst
She's, like a podcast producer, right?
- [25:32]
Tracy Thomas
She is, yeah. Like, she's producing all the cool black girl podcasts, but she has her own podcast, also called Unbound. And so she had me on there so we could talk about Homebodies. And then we just went on a book. We went on a book date. And so, like, we've just kind of, like, been in each other's orbit for a bit. And then we just started, like, you know, sometimes when you just, like, let, like, take the top off something, and then now suddenly you guys talk all the time.
- [25:50]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [25:51]
Tracy Thomas
That sort of became our relationship, where we would just be, like, riffing and going back and forth. And I was like. We were just doing all these voice notes, and I was like, wait, we just need a podcast. Like, what are we? And I'm, like, joking, because I'm like, whatever. And we're like, no, let's do it. And so I was like, what do you think about Silly for the name? And she was like. I was like, silly as in syllabus? And she was like, I love that. And then, like, the curious and the critical thing kind of came beyond that. And so our big idea with it was, like, looking at. We have these things called primary texts that we're, like, working out the format, but the plan is that we're, like, doing these things. We're taking these two texts that we're bringing to each other that in some ways are, like, disparate ideas and are, like, rooted in. It could be a book, it could be a meme. It could be a TikTok. It could be, like. Like, kind of just like some piece of media that we're seeing that, like, speaks back to this bigger idea or, like, sparks and idea, like, some concept within us and then having the conversations about where what we are bringing to each other overlap and intersect. Because I think that we all are engaging with media in various ways. And I think if you are curious and critical and a little bit silly, it all comes back to each other. Like, I can connect probably anything to white supremacy. If you give me five minutes and a whiteboard, I will draw. I will create the dots for you. And so, you know, but, like, that's. And so we're always kind of adding things to our framework. And so we were like, nothing is off limits as far as what we will. What can spark a thought. So, like, our next episode is, like, On All Fours by Miranda July, for example. But, like. And not the book. And the book itself. Whatever, fine. But, like, thinking more so about, you know, what this is saying about white womanhood, you know, like, we think some, like, about how, like, whatever the medium is speaks back to the bigger concept. Because I think other people think like that, and, like, that's kind of the. That's reflective of the conversations that we're having with each other. Over voice note but the conversations I'm having with my other friends, which is, you know, we're always thinking really critically. It is always that deep for us. And so we kind of wanted to turn those conversations outward.
- [27:49]
Temby Denton Hurst
I love it. And you wrote that great thing about All Fours being like, a western.
- [27:55]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [27:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
In your. In your stuff. Like, I can't. Okay. I'm gonna keep referencing your substack like a stalker fan, but if you're not subscribed to extracurricular. You guys, what are you even doing? Like, I don't know how to tell you what to do because I've been trying to tell you to subscribe for, like, month, like, since I started my sub stack. So, like, you need to subscribe. You're like. Like, I'm always tagging your and sub stack.
- [28:17]
Tracy Thomas
I love it.
- [28:17]
Temby Denton Hurst
Please read that. Okay. I can't believe we've gotten this far and not talked about your book. So we're going to talk about Homebodies quickly. It's a novel. It's about a black woman who Works in media and she is. We won't spoil anything, but this is so early and it's on the black back flap. So whatever. She's let go from her job and it basically shakes up her whole life with her partner and she like is. She's sort of a mess.
- [28:44]
Tracy Thomas
She's.
- [28:44]
Temby Denton Hurst
She does things. She does things that are not advisable, I think, for some people. But you, you know, like we all have to live our own lives. I want to know because I know you so much from like your non fiction writing that I remember when this book came out, I was really surprised that it was a novel. I just assumed it was a memoir because I was like, oh, well, Temby writes like criticism and journalism and she like is talking about culture. So I want to know why you just felt like you had to start here. It's such an interesting choice to me.
- [29:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I like, I always say it's kind of like my go tell it on the mountain in a way of like I. I don't think I could ever. I don't see myself ever writing nonfiction because I've always, ever wanted to be a novelist. Like, that was my dream. When I was eight years old, I was like spending my days writing in a notebook, being like, you know, here is my story about whatever. And I wrote lots of fan fiction when I was in high school, just like everybody else.
- [29:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
Fan fiction on what the click?
- [29:40]
Tracy Thomas
Fan fiction. It's. It's. It's some lore.
- [29:43]
Temby Denton Hurst
I like you just said like everybody else. Let me tell you one person who did not write a single word of fanfiction. This person, okay. This person did not write not one word, not one sentence, not even a letter towards fan fiction.
- [29:57]
Tracy Thomas
Okay?
- [29:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
So not like everybody else. You are special. Or maybe I'm special, but not a word.
- [30:05]
Tracy Thomas
I was like. And it's funny because I wrote the clique fan fiction because I felt like Harry Potter fan fiction and Twilight fan fiction was for the serious writers. So I felt like it was like I was in a clear space by writing.
- [30:18]
Temby Denton Hurst
I don't even know what the clique is.
- [30:20]
Tracy Thomas
It's. It's like a. It's about. It's kind of like a Gossip Girl, but they're in middle school.
- [30:24]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [30:25]
Tracy Thomas
Sort of vibes. Great.
- [30:26]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [30:27]
Tracy Thomas
It was a very insane time. So, yeah, I don't know. I was just. It was a time. But yeah, I always knew I was gonna write a novel or I was always hoping to write a novel. Yeah, that was always the goal. And so the fiction kind of just came about Naturally. Like, I don't. Like, for me, I was like, I don't have enough live to, like, write a memoir. I don't know what I would write about, so.
- [30:47]
Temby Denton Hurst
Well, you might write, like, I was thinking, like, it could be, like, essays. You know, I feel like. Like, the work that you do on your substack and, like, you write. I don't know. I just. I. I didn't. I only know you from your work, so it was sort of like a surprising thing to find the novel not. And it's not good or bad surprising. It's just, like, when you think like that, it's like a reminder that we don't really know people on the Internet, even though we feel that we do. And if you had said to me, oh, Tempe's writing a book, I'd be like, oh, it's gonna be about, like, culture and, like, blackness and blah, blah, blah. I mean, it is about those things, but I just never would have been like, oh, it's gonna be a novel. But I feel like it. It. It feels like your vibe, right? Like, all of the things I feel like I know about you are in the novel. It's just not what I was expecting.
- [31:33]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. I mean, even my friends who have read it are. They always. They. A lot of people say, like, it feels like you. And I think that that's such a fun. It's like.
- [31:41]
Temby Denton Hurst
That's such a compliment.
- [31:42]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Like, I recently got coffee with a friend who I haven't seen in 10 years. We were very close in high school, and, like, since kind of just like, lost touch, as friends from high school do. And he was just like, I'm in New York. Can we get coffee? And I was like, sure. You know, why not? And then he was like, yeah, I actually read your book. I said, wait, what? Like, that's crazy. And he was just like. I could just, like, feel you. He was like, it was really interesting just to, like, read. He's like, I just felt like it was your voice. He's like, I knew that the characters were not you and things, because, I mean, he was there with me in high school, you know, so he's like, I know that this is not. He's like, this is not you. But he was like, I just. He was like. It was just really cool to see. Like, I can kind of see you. I could just feel you in the work. And I was just like, you guys are really gonna make me cry every day. Because that's such an insane compliment. Like, yeah, I don't know. It's been. It's been really interesting. I'm writing something else now and it's a diff. It's very different. Not really. Honestly, you'll probably be like, oh, she once again Tempe with her two. Her two time. Two times. Same, same vibes.
- [32:40]
Temby Denton Hurst
But it's a novel also.
- [32:42]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's another novel and reflective of the things I care most about. Like Homebodies is about a lot of things, but I think I was. What I was resisting it being about was that I really just wanted to write a love story. And that's not exactly what ended up happening. And that's not really what I'm doing this time either. But at the same time it is. So it's like I just always want to write about love. So that's the direction that this next situation is taking, which is exciting.
- [33:10]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay, I'm very excited. This is a good teaser for all of us. We will be. We will wait however long it takes you. No rush. But we will be ready for your take on Love Story again. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey guys, it's Tracy. And anyone who knows me knows that I love a little drama, especially when it's not mine. That's why I have to tell you about a podcast that I'm obsessed with. It is called Petty Crimes. It's a weekly comedy podcast where best friends Kira and Griff take the most ridiculous minor squabbles and turn them into full blown investigations. From stolen food to small town drama, they dig into the petty stuff that we all deal with. And trust me, the show's hilarious. Petty Crimes is available every Tuesday. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, you won't want to miss it. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats. You're the creator, you're the marketer, the customer service team. And somehow you're also supposed to figure out inventory and payments. It's a lot, but Shopify makes it easier. With Shopify, everything is in one place, so you can spend less time stressing about logistics and more time actually growing your business. Need a storefront? Shopify has beautiful, easy to use templates. Selling on social media, Shopify connects your store seamlessly so customers can buy right from their feed. And when it comes to payments, taxes, and shipping, Shopify handles all of that too. Shopify makes selling seamless so you can build your business with confidence, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hello everybody, it's me, Tracy. If you love this podcast the Stacks and you want more bookish goodness, I've got two great ways for you to stay connected. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter Unstacked over on Substack on Patreon we've built an incredible literary community. There's a discord for chatting all things books Books monthly book club meetups, the year long mega challenge for all of you who want to push your reading habits to the limits. Plus you get to be part of an amazing Patreon community that loves books as much as you do. So if you're looking for community and people to talk about books with, head to patreon.com thestacks and then on Substack I'm giving you my unfiltered takes on book news, pop culture and whatever I'm reading twice a week. Think mini reviews, rankings and more. I just launched a brand new non fiction series that I am calling the Non Fiction Files where I am talking about nonfiction and digging in to my favorite kind of books in the same way that you might find someone else talking about fiction. So whether you're a free or paid subscriber, there is a ton to enjoy by going to tracythomas.substack.com if you're interested in supporting this black woman run indie podcast and getting some amazing extras, head to Patreon Substack or both. I would absolutely love to have you. Okay, we're back and we do this every month. It's called Ask the Stacks where someone has written. In looking for a book recommendation, I'm going to read you what they said and then you're going to come up with at least one book. I've got three, but I've got to be honest, this was the hardest one I've ever done. This one, I really, I struggled with this one. I don't think it'll be hard for you actually. I think that you are going to have better recommendations than me. But if you are at home listening and you want to have your book, have a book recommendation for you from me and a guest email. Ask the stacks@the stackspodcast.com okay, this one says hello Tracy and guest. I'm a big fan of the podcast and was hoping to get some book recommendations for my upcoming trip to Europe. My sibling and I will be going to Paris, then taking the train across Germany to Berlin. And I'm trying to find something to read that will evoke the right adventurous out of our comfort zone, joy and reflection the trip brings maybe something set in the areas we will be traveling or something that centers around a trip. It also is the only time we've ever, ever traveled this far together without our parents. So we are bringing a while we're still young and our late twenties attitude to the trip. That might be a good theme for one of the books I bring. As far as genres go, I think literary or historical fiction or memoir is what I'm looking for, but I'm open to others. Some books I've read recently and liked are Martyr by Kaveh Akbar, Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin, Greta and Valden by Rebecca R. By Rebecca K. Riley and Butter by Asako Yazuki. Hope information is useful and not me rambling. Where I've tried to search books set in Germany or books about travel, none of them strike the right tone. So your recommendations are greatly appreciated. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard because one, I just went to Germany and I read books about Germany, but I read intense non fiction about the Holocaust and the Berlin Wall, which just doesn't sound like what you want.
- [38:21]
Tracy Thomas
No.
- [38:22]
Temby Denton Hurst
Like literally when I travel I am reading like books about history about this place. Like I am digging in deep. Like the book I read was literally called the Holocaust An Unfinished History. Like it was like it's black with white writing.
- [38:37]
Tracy Thomas
Like it was like, no, it's serious.
- [38:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
We're going there.
- [38:40]
Tracy Thomas
They said log in.
- [38:42]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, they said historical text research. So here's so I actually like did a lot of googling for you. I pulled three books, one of two of which I've read, and then two were the ones that sounded the most like what you wanted from one from a Parisian and one from a German recommendation. So that's what I've come to. I hope you like it. So my first two that I've read are Anna K. And Anna K. Away by Jenny Lee, which are the retellings of Anna Karenina, Gossip Girl, crazy rich Asian style. And what I'm pulling on here is In Anna K it's set in New York City, but in Anna K. Away she goes on a trip to Korea. She's traveling around on a train. It's a lot of while we're still young party vibes, also travel vibes. And also it's a fun, easy book. So if you are traveling and just getting a few pages Here and there. You're not gonna feel like, I can't go out and explore the Louvre with my sibling. Like, it's a book you can kind of put down and enjoy. So. So that's my sort of. My personal recommendation. Then I went with the Margot Affair by Sine Lemoine, which is about a French girl who is about 17, I believe, and she's born to into an affair. Like her parents were having an affair. So she's the illegitimate child, and she takes her story to a journalist in Paris.
- [40:08]
Tracy Thomas
There are more of those than you think.
- [40:10]
Temby Denton Hurst
More of those stories or more of those books?
- [40:12]
Tracy Thomas
More of those people, More of those children than you think.
- [40:14]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yes, there's a lot of those children. Some perhaps in my own family. I'm not exactly sure, but I can't rule it out. So that's a book that's supposed to be sort of juicy and fun. And then my Germany pick is. This book is a lot older. I think it's. This author has passed away, and it's called Every Man Dies Alone by Hans Falada. And it's sort of a sad story of Nazi resistance in Berlin from a couple who is resisting the Nazis. The book was written, I think, in the 50s, but didn't get published for, like, decades. And so it's one of these like, like, contemporaneous fictional texts about Nazi Germany. That's where I would start. But again, this is for yo, so we'll see. Did you come up with anything?
- [41:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I've not read this book yet, but I would say Good Girl by Aria Eber, which is about, like, a girl who's, like, partying in Germany and she's Iranian and, like, vibing out. So I feel like that's kind of. That's the first thing that came to mind.
- [41:19]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [41:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that was, like, my first thought. My other thought, because train travel.
- [41:25]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [41:25]
Tracy Thomas
Though a much less beautiful in its own way, much less party girl vibe is the Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway.
- [41:34]
Temby Denton Hurst
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [41:36]
Tracy Thomas
Which is about train travel. There's a lot of train travel, and it's just vibey. Like, you feel like you're in there. You feel like you're there. So that's like my contemporary and then, like my old school pick. I was, like, looking at my bookshelves while we were talking about this, and I'm like, what do I even have over here? And I don't even think I've read anything set in Germany. Chile. I'm like. I don't. I'm. Yeah, lots of. Not that that was.
- [42:01]
Temby Denton Hurst
That was a real hard one for me. So, Sarah, if you read any of those books, let us know how we did. And anyone who wants recommendation email, ask the stacks@theStackSpartcast.com. okay, Tempe, we're back to you. Two books you love, one book you hate.
- [42:15]
Tracy Thomas
This is hard because I'm just gonna say Martyr, because that was like my recent love and fave. That's fine, Whatever. I literally. I'm hand selling. I'm hand selling that book, pushing it into people's hands. Every time I go on a book day, I've bought at least eight copies for other people. It's really like, I am personally, I'm basically a small book bookseller at this point. Like an independent bookseller.
- [42:40]
Temby Denton Hurst
Of specifically Martyr.
- [42:41]
Tracy Thomas
Of specifically Martyr. I really loved that book. I think it's playful in, like, also just really just dealing with these really big themes in a very beautiful way. The writing is insane. Just like the command of language is insane. It's all just so wild. I mean, I think it's like. It demoralizes me. It's so good. And that's when I know that something is really good. If I've read it and been like, you know what? It's time to hang it up. I'm gonna put my jersey on the rafters.
- [43:06]
Temby Denton Hurst
No, this is why I don't write, because I'm like, I read too many books. Like, I know what I'm up against, and I'm competitive as hell, and I just. There's no way I'm getting even close to some of these sentences. What is another book you love?
- [43:21]
Tracy Thomas
Another book I love is. Has to be. I would say. I really love Erasure by Percival Everett. It's one of the best books I've ever read. I don't think that anything really has compared to that before or since. I think that it's one of those books that is just so precise and knows exactly what it wants to say and has full control of the narrative and does not leave a stone unturned, but without, like, being didactic in any way. And I thought that it was just this really beautiful. It deals with class in a way that I rarely seen represented in Black Stories. I think it deals with. And it's so. It's like. It's very precise. Like, I think even it being located in D.C. and like, all of the diff, everything about it just feels so. So specific. It's just. It's aspirational and also equally demoralizing. I'm like, damn, Percival. Like, Foot on my neck. Thank you so much. Like, that's crazy. It's just.
- [44:22]
Temby Denton Hurst
Did you see the movie?
- [44:24]
Tracy Thomas
I did so that I wrote about some. I wrote about it for extracurricular. About how I think the movie was a really poor copy of the book and that it was, like, not. It makes the book seem, like, a lot less brilliant than it is. And the book is quite literally one of. It's a classic. It's one of those books that I'm like, oh, everybody should be reading this. Every black person should be reading this. Because it talks about. I think a lot about Spivak's essay about, like, can the subaltern speak? And specifically within that essay, the notion of the Native informant and this idea of within the subaltern group of, like, natives looking at the people who choose to become, like, essentially class. Like, engage in class migration by way of translating their people, like, the customs and things like that in, like, for the ruling class and for the elite who. In that circ. In, like, what Spivak is talking about is, like, the British, essentially. So it's like, it. There's also, like, a racial. It's like, not only a class component, but a racial component. And I think about that a lot. Being a writer and being a journalist and writing about black things, but also existing in. And working in white spaces and having to always be mindful of, like, the goal is never to be a Native informant.
- [45:43]
Temby Denton Hurst
Right.
- [45:43]
Tracy Thomas
Because. And so I think that that book really brilliantly engages with that while all. And it does it also just like, Monk is both. He's, like, trapped in his hubris. You know what I mean? Like, I think the film kind of incorrectly positions him as this, like, tortured genius. And I'm like, that's really not what's happening.
- [46:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
The film misses the point of the book by, like. And misses the joke. It misses the joke of the book and the point of the book.
- [46:10]
Tracy Thomas
Absolutely.
- [46:11]
Temby Denton Hurst
I called it the Disney. The Disney Vacation of Erasure.
- [46:14]
Tracy Thomas
Exactly.
- [46:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
Because it's just like, so the book is. The movie is just so clean. I was just like, you missed it so bad.
- [46:21]
Tracy Thomas
So bad. Like, it does not implicate him in any way. Because I'm like, he. And I think it's so important. Like, they really make it seem like black people are a monolith and there's one big cookout. And I'm like, the elite. Elite blacks do not want anything to do with the others. The rest of us.
- [46:36]
Temby Denton Hurst
The rest.
- [46:36]
Tracy Thomas
The rest. I'm like, y'all did not read Margo Jefferson and It's obvious you guys did not read Our Kind of people. And it's obvious. You know what I mean? I'm like, maybe you are the. You are the families in our kind of people. Because if this is like, I just thought it was such an interesting. Like, it was so deeply sympathetic to Monk in a way that I felt was just, like, disingenuous for, like, what the point of the work is. And I think, yes, we don't see enough books about class. We don't see enough books about, you know, the inner workings of the black community and, like, those stratifications. Yeah, I don't know. I was just like, oh, okay. Like, I was like a rich person had to have made this because there's not like, you know, it's like, it's not clear eyed in the way that Erasure was. So, yeah, I didn't. I didn't like the book. I didn't like the movie, but I. I loved the book. I'm still in awe of the book. It's one of those things where I'm like, I need to go back and read it again just to, like, understand its construction, you know, because I think I was so. It was so, like, smooth.
- [47:27]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. We did it for a book club last year and it was definitely a favorite.
- [47:31]
Tracy Thomas
It's so good. Like, very rarely do I think of books as a perfect book, but that, to me, is a perfect book. I could not think of a thing that I would do differently or like, I mean, I just left. I was like, oh, well, you know, hey, okay, wait. Find one more book that I love. Okay.
- [47:44]
Temby Denton Hurst
You can do one more.
- [47:46]
Tracy Thomas
Training School for Negro Girls by Camille Acker. It is one of.
- [47:49]
Temby Denton Hurst
I didn't know that.
- [47:50]
Tracy Thomas
It's so good. It's like a collection of short stories set in D.C. and it's about black women and girls in D.C. and it'S just really good. She's a great writer. I'm waiting for her next book. Like, the second that it hits, I see any, like, whisper of information about it, I'm all over it. I just really loved it. I think that the short stories are just really, really good. Like, she's just really talented. All of the characters feel very alive. Maybe I feel that way because of my connection to DC, but I just really love it. A book I hate. And I feel very brave in saying this is such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid.
- [48:25]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay, I want you to say more. I'm being brave. Okay, go ahead, say more. Because I did not love Such a Fun Age to the point that I almost didn't read the second book. And then I really liked the second book, like, a lot.
- [48:39]
Tracy Thomas
You know, it's interesting. And the reason why I feel brave about saying that, because I don't like to say. I don't talk. Like, I just. I'm always. I don't like talking about. There's books that I just really don't like. Right. Like, I just. This was pointless. This is empty. The reason why I didn't like such a fun age. And upon. And I've been sitting with my dislike of such a fun age since it came out.
- [48:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
Right.
- [48:57]
Tracy Thomas
Because I. And now on the other side, like, some years on, with some distance from the book, I can talk about it in a way that feels critical but not cruel, if that makes sense. Yes. Because I think that such a fun age is not for black people. And we have to remember that that's the only way that's. I had to look at it and say, this is not for me. This is not for us. It was positioned that way. Which I don't think is Kylie's fault. Having been through the publishing machine, I understand how marketing is not necessarily always in line with the author's intention.
- [49:45]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [49:45]
Tracy Thomas
I'm saying I hate it. I don't hate it as much now that I understand it or I've reframed it differently. I don't know that I hate it. I still don't love it. But I understand now, and I understand this more what it's trying to do, where I kind of. I think of it as, like, Gatsbyian in its approach. Yeah. Like, I look at it and think I like. To me, it's most similar to the Great Gatsby in that it is this, like, taxonomy of white liberal attitudes toward black people.
- [50:17]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yes.
- [50:18]
Tracy Thomas
And it's really focusing in. On, you know, the psychology of white people, how they see themselves, and what happens when a black woman is just, like, in that orbit, like, is very, like, caught up and tangled in that orbit, and in some ways is detached from her personhood as a result. I think where I took a lot of issue with it was that, like, Emira is a collection of stereotypes. I don't think that she's. She's not a black woman that I would recognize or admire. Personally. I was. I had a lot of issues with Emira as a character because I just felt that, like. And it's not to say that, like, black people have to be ambitious to matter. Like, I actually. I'm a big fan of black mediocrity. But she would. She went beyond mediocrity and was like. There were moments when she would say things like, you know, I don't know what I'm good at, aside from caring for this girl. I. I don't know. You know, she was like. She was so leaning into the mammy characterization to a level that I was like. It was interesting. I'm, like, I didn't sense, like, the spirit of resistance in the way that I was wanting, you know, like, especially when I read it, I was like, oh, this is really fascinating. Like, this is. You know, I'm like, I'm looking. I'm like, I'm seeing this. But I just felt like that interiority didn't extend to Amira, which, when you're told that a book is for you and then the book is, like, the character in some ways feels like a betrayal of. She. She doesn't feel known to you in any way.
- [51:54]
Temby Denton Hurst
Right.
- [51:55]
Tracy Thomas
You know, I was. I was upset by that, but I think many years out from reading it, I now understand, like, I look at it differently. I was like, okay, yeah, I. I've chosen to think that Emira as a character is intentionally like that.
- [52:12]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. Interesting. I did not care for that book for different reasons. Well, similar reasons, but also just, like, I thought that it lost steam. Like, I just thought that, like, it started off so strong, and then I was just like, are we done? I feel like we're done. I would be so interested to hear what you think of the second book, because I thought the second book was better. And. But I do think the thing that Kylie Reid does is that she writes about white people. Like, she is writing about whiteness. She is not writing about blackness. Even when there are black characters, they are like a lens through which to see white people.
- [52:52]
Tracy Thomas
And that's what. And that. Yeah. And, like, when I started to understand the work as doing that, that's when I saw. That's when I was like, oh, it's like Gatsby, like, where we have the Nick character and he's there for the function of showing us.
- [53:05]
Temby Denton Hurst
Being our eyes. Yeah. Showing us this other thing.
- [53:08]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And so, you know, I did not see myself on the page.
- [53:13]
Temby Denton Hurst
That's fair.
- [53:14]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [53:14]
Temby Denton Hurst
What are you currently reading?
- [53:16]
Tracy Thomas
I'm reading Sula. Oh, yeah.
- [53:21]
Temby Denton Hurst
How many times have you read it?
- [53:22]
Tracy Thomas
This is my first time, which. I know.
- [53:24]
Temby Denton Hurst
It's your first time.
- [53:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [53:26]
Temby Denton Hurst
Oh, my God. I know.
- [53:28]
Tracy Thomas
Because that's always the. Everyone's like. How many? Like, everyone's on there? Like, seven, three. Read.
- [53:31]
Temby Denton Hurst
I know. I'VE only read it once, but I just know you were saying you've read so many of these books, and, like, you're so well read. I just, you know. Oh, okay. When you finish, we did an episode with Brit Bennett about it.
- [53:43]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, fun. Yeah.
- [53:44]
Temby Denton Hurst
That was our book club. Yeah.
- [53:46]
Tracy Thomas
I'm in part one right now of. I'm in part one, so I'm, like, done with. I'm, like, starting part two, and it's like. It is. It's a lot so far. I'm like, okay. I'm waiting to see. Because I'm just like, have the best time.
- [54:02]
Temby Denton Hurst
I love it. It's my. I think. Think it's probably my favorite of hers that I've read.
- [54:05]
Tracy Thomas
Really? Have you read Song of Solomon?
- [54:07]
Temby Denton Hurst
I have, and I like Song. I liked Song of Solomon, but Sula just, like, the relationship between the women was just so interesting to me. Yeah, in a way. I mean, I really liked Song of Solomon. That's my second favorite. Like, they're. They're neck and neck, and I think I kind of go back and forth between the two. But I just. I loved Sula. Like, I just. I also thought Sula was, like, like, sort of fun in its, like, upness. Like, it's so dark, but, like, I felt like Toni Morrison was, like, a little bit playful with the pen in that one in a way that felt different to some of the other ones that I've read or, like. I don't know. I just. I love it. Like, I love it. It's. It's dark, for sure, but there's some. I don't want to say more, but there's some. But, like, I love the bottom. Like, just, like, the name. The bottom is, like, the plate. Like, it's just. It's so. It's so Morrison to do that with, like, at the bottom, at the top of the hill. Anyways, love it.
- [55:05]
Tracy Thomas
Song of Solomon is one of my favorite books of all time. Like, it's hallowed. It's a hallowed ground for me. So I'm like, it's. It's interesting. I'm. I'm liking it. I'm just like, okay. Like, I'm like, are you. I was like, do you and Flannery share a little bit of a brand? Because, like, it's just, like, very. I'm like, oh, my God. Ms. Tony is really, really. I haven't read Morrison in a long time, too, so it's been. It's been nice to return to. To the. To the work we do.
- [55:32]
Temby Denton Hurst
One a year here. For book club. And we've gotten now to the point where we're sort of in the books that nobody really wants to do. So, like, we haven't done paradise yet. We haven't done Whole Love yet. Like, we haven't done, like, those ones. And it's been interesting because, like, you know, we started with Bluest Eye, then did Beloved, that did Sula. Like, it was like, everybody was like, fighting for who. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it started, like, after we did Song of Solomon, I was like, where will we go next? So it's been. It's fun for me to get to because I. I had never read Morrison before I started the show.
- [56:02]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, wow. Yeah.
- [56:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
So I have been talk about, like, embarrassingly learning and being wrong about things. Like, I have been reading her publicly for the last seven years. Like, first time encountering the work. And that's been really interesting and hard and fun, but definitely challenging. Okay. How do you decide what you're going to read next next?
- [56:23]
Tracy Thomas
It's so mood focused. Like, I read like, my wife and I are now, like, in a book club together because she's not a reader. Yeah. She's discovered audiobooks and she loves that. So we were reading Tree CD on and then I think we're gonna read the Neighbor Favor next. And I also want to read a marvelous light with her. Like, we're reading, like, you know, I'm reading Black Marxism, so I'm like, I need to read some things that are, like, lighter. It also just depends, like, how I'm feeling in the moment. I'm like, I think I had such a good beginning of the reading year last year, and then it descended into madness. And so I've been having a hard time getting back.
- [57:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
Last year started off too strong.
- [57:05]
Tracy Thomas
It was too strong.
- [57:06]
Temby Denton Hurst
It was upsetting.
- [57:07]
Tracy Thomas
When I say so. Like, my first book was Yupoka Yibo's. Is it Anansi's Gold? I think it is. It's like a nonfiction book about the Obangana trust fund. Like, the scheme. Brilliant. She ate that. It was so good. After that I read Erasure. After. Well, no, after that I read Martyr. After that I read Erasure. So it was like hit after hit after hit.
- [57:30]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [57:31]
Tracy Thomas
And it wasn't sustained. Then we just started, like, going like this. And I read Biography of X by Katherine Lacy, which is really good, you know, like, where it's just like, I was reading. And even if like. Like I was reading books that, like, ultimately this is not my favorite book. The book had a vision. It had a Notion. It had an idea. The writing was really good.
- [57:52]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [57:52]
Tracy Thomas
And then we slipped into something different toward the mid.
- [57:55]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yes. The middle, I think. 10, 9 out of the 10 books that made it into my, like, 20, 24 top 10 last year, I read before May. Yeah. Which is wild, because I. I mean, like, like, 80 of what I read last year were books from 2024. Like, it wasn't, like, read a bunch of books and then was like, let me put this out. Like, it was such a weird year, I think. What? For a lot of reasons. But, I mean, I loved James, and I read James and Martyr both in, like, January of last year, and those ended up being my two favorite novels of the year. It's just like. And I read Colored Television by Dan cna, which I also loved super early.
- [58:31]
Tracy Thomas
You loved it.
- [58:33]
Temby Denton Hurst
I love Danzy Senna. I love that kind of mess. But also, I am. I am that. I am mixed. I am, like, all of that humor, all of that stuff is like, so me. I love new people. I'm, like, such a Danzy Senna fan, and I love her messy, weird characters.
- [58:51]
Tracy Thomas
I think she has a great name.
- [58:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
Just vicious. A vicious takedown.
- [59:02]
Tracy Thomas
I just. I love her name. I think it's great. I was like, you know, there's some people. I'm like, you have perfect names. Her and SZA have perfect names to me, Solana Row will never not be in the name hall of fame for me.
- [59:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
We'll move on. Okay. I. This is sort of, like our quick round because we're definitely, like, out of time or close to it, but what's the last book that made you laugh Reliably?
- [59:26]
Tracy Thomas
Hope by Andrew Ridger.
- [59:28]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay. Last book that made you cry.
- [59:31]
Tracy Thomas
An American Marriage by Tayari Jones.
- [59:33]
Temby Denton Hurst
Ooh. Last book that made you angry.
- [59:36]
Tracy Thomas
Shadowborn by Tracy Deon.
- [59:40]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay. Okay. What's the last book where you felt like you learned a lot?
- [59:44]
Tracy Thomas
Black Marxism by Cedric Robinson.
- [59:48]
Temby Denton Hurst
What's a book that brings you joy?
- [59:50]
Tracy Thomas
Seven days in June.
- [59:53]
Temby Denton Hurst
What's a book that you are proud? You feel proud for having read?
- [60:02]
Tracy Thomas
Playing in the dark. Whiteness in the literary imagination.
- [60:05]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay, what about a book you're embarrassed that you've never read?
- [60:09]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my God, so many. Like, I've never read Edith Edith Wharton, which feels embarrassing to me.
- [60:18]
Temby Denton Hurst
I'm gonna read Custom of the country this year if you'd like to read with me.
- [60:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I'm trying to read Custom of the Country. I. Everyone. A lot of people I talk to who I like. Respect as writers, are like. Like, it's Edith Wharton. For me. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'm like, what is, what is it? What's happening here? Yeah. Oh, wait. I actually am. I was embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that I like read 50 Shades of Gray.
- [60:38]
Temby Denton Hurst
Like, that's mine too. I'm not embarrassed that I read it. I'm embarrassed that I liked it, that I enjoyed my time and read all three quickly.
- [60:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I read it when I was extremely young. I was way too young to be reading that, but I was having the best time. I was like, this is the best time. I was also a big Twilight fan.
- [60:54]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay. I was. I never read Twilight. Just.
- [60:57]
Tracy Thomas
It's useless for you to read it now. Like, it's ideal when you're a 12 year old girl. Do you know what I mean? That's the timing.
- [61:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
That's right. Is there any book that you think people would be surprised to know that you love?
- [61:12]
Tracy Thomas
Maybe like Wellness by Nathan Hill or something like that? Like, you know, there's all this like conversation right now about like, like, are white, like, are white men becoming irrelevant in publishing? And I'm like, no, girl. I'm like, I buy a lot of white men's books.
- [61:26]
Temby Denton Hurst
So do I.
- [61:27]
Tracy Thomas
When I go to McNally Jackson and I tally up them books. 5. Like, if I'm reading new releases, I'm like, I can like go through. And I'm like, that's by a white man. That's by a white man. I read a lot of books by white men. And you know, sometimes they do be cooking. So it is what it is.
- [61:43]
Temby Denton Hurst
People were not happy with me. But last year, 2024, I was like, I read a lot of nonfiction and I was like, it's a very good year for the white men. 2024, nonfiction was white men said, we are. We will not be erased. They said, we're still here.
- [61:59]
Tracy Thomas
No, I mean if they've, if this helps them get on their job, by all means. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, if this pushes you to write, to write, to go bigger, bigger and beyonder, you know, just do more. I'm all for competition.
- [62:11]
Temby Denton Hurst
That's right.
- [62:11]
Tracy Thomas
Exactly. Like, if this is going to put the battery in their back, like, yes, let's go.
- [62:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
I forgot to ask you this. How do you like to read? What is your ideal setting? Snacks and beverages? Is there a vibe? Is there a temperature? Are there accessories? Set the scene.
- [62:26]
Tracy Thomas
Ideal reading situation. First thing in the morning, open my eyes, pick up a book. If it's a book that requires notation, then I'm Gonna have like my sticky note notes two by two. Specifically bold colors. They have. They have a primary color one. So it's like red and white and blue and green. And they're beautiful. They're a great shade. Specifically the MUJI 0.38 pen or the poppin gel pen. It's really good for those sticky notes.
- [62:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [62:58]
Tracy Thomas
Then also the little sticky note flags. Important to me for passages I want to remember. If it's a nonfiction book, I will write in it because of college, which broke the barrier of writing in books. I do not write in fiction books. Okay, so then if it's a non fiction book, I will pull out a highlighter if necessary. Muji has great highlighters.
- [63:18]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay.
- [63:19]
Tracy Thomas
And that is my. And then sometimes, like, if I'm reading black Marxism, I also have to have a notebook because I'm both reading and then I'm writing notes.
- [63:27]
Temby Denton Hurst
Got it. And no snacks and beverages with your reading.
- [63:31]
Tracy Thomas
No snacks and beverages. Although if I'm reading first thing in the morning, there probably will be a Celsius involved.
- [63:36]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay. Oh, okay. Turn it off.
- [63:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [63:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
Good morning.
- [63:39]
Tracy Thomas
I love Celsius. I love it so much. It's really. I was never a caffeine person, and.
- [63:44]
Temby Denton Hurst
Then I've never had one.
- [63:46]
Tracy Thomas
Don't do it. Don't start.
- [63:47]
Temby Denton Hurst
I won't, I won't, I won't, I won't.
- [63:48]
Tracy Thomas
It's like, you know, like people who do jewel pods or whatever. It's not like addicting like that, but it's more like an energy drink, you know? I mean, it's embarrassing. I might as well be drinking a monster.
- [63:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, well, my husband still drinks Red Bull.
- [63:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, my wife drinks Red Bull too.
- [64:01]
Temby Denton Hurst
I'm like, what's happening?
- [64:02]
Tracy Thomas
No, it's so weird. I'm like, what are you doing?
- [64:05]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, it's so weird. Like, I was. And like, I, like, take it out of the house with him. I'm like, I'm so embarrassed to be, like, at the park with our kids and you're drinking a Red Bull. Like, put it in a cup or something. In a solo cup. Okay, last question for you as she takes a sip from her Celsius. It's from the New York Times Book Review. I stole it from them. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book. Book. What would it be?
- [64:31]
Tracy Thomas
A People's History by Howard Zinn.
- [64:34]
Temby Denton Hurst
It's a banger.
- [64:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [64:36]
Temby Denton Hurst
Would be useful if you any.
- [64:38]
Tracy Thomas
Any history on tyranny by Timothy Snyder. Everything. Every. Honestly. Honestly. The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein, the Hungry Caterpillar. You know, where are the wild things? Anything, like, literally prove to me that.
- [64:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
You'Ve read a book.
- [64:57]
Tracy Thomas
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I do.
- [64:59]
Temby Denton Hurst
I do.
- [64:59]
Tracy Thomas
Like, that's literally. I'm like, like, one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. Like, I don't know, like, the bar is so, so beneath the floor.
- [65:09]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, it's deep. It's deep. It's a bunker. It's underground.
- [65:12]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's dark.
- [65:14]
Temby Denton Hurst
Okay, well, everybody, this has been just a delight with Temby Denton Hurst, who is the author of Homebodies, also the author of my favorite substack, Don't Tell Anybody Else. Well, they're gonna know. They're gonna find out. Extracurricular. And she's coming back on Wednesday, March 26, to discuss they Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers for our March Book Club. If you are intimidated by history books, academic books, read it with us. We already told you. We're curious, we're critical, and I'm the stupidest person in the room. So you're gonna be fine. I promise. I will have less intelligent things to say than whatever you're thinking at home. So read with us. Us. It's going to be a great time. Temby, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me and everyone else. We will see you in the Stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to temby Denton Hurst for joining the show. Don't forget, our book club pick for March is They Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers, which we will be discussing on on Wednesday, March 26, with Temby Denton Hurst as our returning guest. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax, Pod, on Instagram, threads and TikTok, and check out our website, the Stack. This episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McKrite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.