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- [00:01]
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- [00:53]
Tori Peters
I got a question yesterday from like a British interviewer that was like, are you stuck writing trans stories now forever? And I was like. It like kind of shocked me that question. Not not only in terms of like, well is that so bad? But also like, dude, I just gave you a lumberjack story. Like, obviously trans stories can do anything. You know, we'll see what readers think of it. But people are like, seem to be down to like go with me on that. And that makes me feel like if I want to do something else a little like, you know, surprising people might come with me and that, yeah, that's what you want as a writer. It's just like that freedom to be like, let me try something out.
- [01:38]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and today I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Torrey Peters. Tori's first book, the critically acclaimed novel D Transition Baby was picked as a top 10 book on of 2021 right here on the Stacks podcast. Her latest book, Stag Dance, is a collection of three short stories and one novella that explores trans identity, power and transformation. Today, Tori and I talk about the relationship between genre and gender, how she freed herself to write again after the success of Detransition Baby, and what she is most interested in exploring as she tells trans stories. Don't forget our book club pick for March is They Were Her Property White Women as Slave Owners in the American south by Stephanie E. Jo Rogers. We will be back to discuss that book on Wednesday, March 26 with Temby Denton Hurst. Be sure to read along and tune in quick Reminder. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want a little bit more of it, a little inside access, some fun bonus Perks, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and slash. Or go to Tracy Thomas substack.com to subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked. You get a bunch of fun, fun stuff and you get to support the work of this show. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Tori Peters. All right, everybody. I'm so excited she's here. It's Tori Peters, the author of Stag Dance. Tori, welcome to the Stacks.
- [03:16]
Tori Peters
Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
- [03:18]
Tracy Thomas
I'm so happy to have you. I read D Transition Baby the year it came out. It made it on the stacks top 10 books of the year in 2021, and I have just been patiently waiting for whatever was next. It is Stag Dance. It is a joy to have you like. I know my listeners are so excited. Everyone keeps bugging me, being like, are you going to get Tori Peters? I'm like, I hope, but, Tori, will you. We'll start where we always start, which is in about 30 seconds or so. Will you just tell folks what Stag Dance is about?
- [03:47]
Tori Peters
Sure. It's a quartet of four stories, sort of like three novellas and one short novel, each in a different genre that each takes on a sort of a different aspect of trans life or just kind of gendered life in general. So that's speculative fiction, teen romance, tall tale, western, and finally a horror.
- [04:13]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. I love the collection. I had so much fun thinking about both genre and gender and also how those things maybe are, like, super connected.
- [04:25]
Tori Peters
Yeah. I think, you know, some people would say it's the same. Same word in French or whatever. I. I've been told.
- [04:31]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, is that true?
- [04:33]
Tori Peters
Yeah. Genre. Genre is gender in French.
- [04:36]
Tracy Thomas
Wow. Let's go back. We'll come back to gender and genre. But for now, I want to know about sort of the process with this book. I read at the end how you've been working or these stories have been with some of them 10 years. So I want to know first what order you wrote them in.
- [04:55]
Tori Peters
Sure. So I wrote them. The first two were part of a project that I was doing in Brooklyn. I moved to Brooklyn to be sort of part of a trans writing scene, and the scene was based around a press called Topside Press. But the problem with having a scene based around the Press is that a press can really only do a couple books a year, especially when it's like getting published out of, you know, my ex boyfriend's living room, which is literally what it was. So. And I was. And there was a lot of, like, you know, hard feelings. It was like, why did they choose those three books when there's so many of us who are writing? And so I had this idea that we should all be writing novellas because the novella takes, you know, a couple months to write rather than ideally a couple months to write rather than, you know, a novel, which can take years. And when I. And then I self published my novellas to sort of create this. This kind of exchange like you would do with zines with other trans women. So the first two that were part of that project were Infect your Friends and Loved Ones, which is a speculative fiction story in which like, sort of two ex lovers create a contagion that prevents everybody's bodies from producing hormones. And so everybody has to, like, inject hormones the same way that trans people do. And it's kind of like what happens when everybody has to make the same choice that trans people make. So that was like the first one, and then the second one was called the Masker, which is about kind of the relationship between fetish and trans identity, which seemed like a very loaded topic that I wanted to take on. And that's a story of like, a sort of person who considers themselves like an online sissy who goes in real life to a convention in Vegas and kind of has to make a choice between a trans woman who. Who is pushing kind of respectability politics and, like, this is what it means to be a real woman, and the Masker, who's a fetishist who wears a, like, full body silicone woman suit and like, comes to Vegas to, like, party, but lives the rest of his life as a doctor. And it kind of is like, who counts as trans. And it's set up as a horror story where the decision is sort of horrific either way. If you have to be as, you know, be respectable all your life, or you have to live in the closet all your life.
- [07:17]
Tracy Thomas
And then when. When did you write Stag Dance and the college or the high school story, that. Which is my favorite.
- [07:27]
Tori Peters
Oh, good, that's one of my favorite.
- [07:28]
Tracy Thomas
I loved Story two.
- [07:29]
Tori Peters
I think that might be my favorite too. It's, oh, you're not supposed to tell us your faves.
- [07:34]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, I'm like, I love it.
- [07:36]
Tori Peters
That one was like, the easiest to write, which sounds like a slam on it, but actually was like, when something's really easy to write, it's usually like a joy. It's like it's coming like an inspiration, right?
- [07:46]
Tracy Thomas
It just comes out of you easily and you just know where you're going and what you're doing.
- [07:49]
Tori Peters
And that happened for that. So basically the idea was that I was always going to write these novellas in genres. And what happened is I started writing the third one which was going to be like a soap opera melodrama, and it just turned into Detransition Baby and that just like totally derailed this project. So, you know, and the thing about a soap opera melodrama is like, that was a terrible choice for a novella because soap operas go on forever.
- [08:13]
Tracy Thomas
They go on forever.
- [08:14]
Tori Peters
They're not self contained little things. So, you know, Detransition Baby happened and it kind of just like totally changed my life, you know. And I had a couple of years where I was doing screenwriting and at the end of it I was like, I came back, I was like, maybe I want to do this project again. And then I started the chaser, like in the run up to the publication of Detransition Baby. So I kind of had the bones of it. And then I was able to finish that one, you know, really pretty easily. But the problem is with the, the last one, I had a totally different idea for it than the, the Western, the Stag Dance, which is the title story. And I just kept on. I felt like it was so hard to write with all the expectations that Detransition Baby put on me. Like it was like, oh, you write these like witty contemporary stories about like urban femininity and transness and like, I, I enjoy that, but I had just spent like four years talking about it and, and every time I kind of got close to that, I felt like, just, just like really kind of crushed by, by, by that idea. And I was, I was building a sauna in the woods and I was just like actually cutting down trees and I was kind of like, you know what, like, what if I just wrote something that like nobody was expecting and like maybe nobod they wanted, you know, and, and that, that would actually free me to like kind of do whatever I want. Because it, because you know, even if everyone ended up being like, we don't want this, I could be like, well, yeah, of course it's a bunch of loggers in the woods who nobody was asking for it, you know, but, but for me. So I ended up writing this whole story in a kind of like, logger idiom that ended up for me being, like, totally freeing. It was a little bit perverse to make that choice, but it was really freeing because, number one, I felt like I was writing without any expectations. And number two, all of the ways that people talk about gender and transness, that in some ways get a little over determined or calcified. I had to kind of reinvent them to talk about them. Like, you know, turn of the century logger would talk about them.
- [10:26]
Tracy Thomas
So can you say more about what you mean by that? Like, the language that gets calcified, talking about transness, like, more specifically?
- [10:32]
Tori Peters
Sure, yeah. Like, you know, a word like gender dysphoria, you know, like, that is something that if you're going on the Internet and talking about transness, people will say words like that. And that word, like, you know, comes from the medical world. It is like, it's kind of a discoursey word, like Internet.
- [10:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [10:52]
Tori Peters
You know, and the thing is, like, a lot of those words just feel dead to me. They're just like. Like you put them in a. You put them in a fiction piece and it's just like there's like a clunk in the sentence, you know?
- [11:03]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [11:04]
Tori Peters
And so, like, for instance, like the logger, when the logger says it's basically communicating something that's like dysphoria. He says, no mirror has ever befriended me. And.
- [11:19]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [11:20]
Tori Peters
And like, I don't.
- [11:21]
Tracy Thomas
So good.
- [11:21]
Tori Peters
I don't really use words like befriend me, like, as a verb, you know, like, please befriend me, you know, like, that's not my. Know it's speaking, but like, I remember, like, you know, times in my life that I've looked in a mirror and been like, this mirror is being mean, you know, like.
- [11:37]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [11:38]
Tori Peters
And like, that feeling, you know, I never would have really thought to say something like that if I wasn't constrained to, like, say it so differently than I'd said it most of my life. And so. So that last one is. Is for me, it's like a very happy departure, but certainly, like, it's like a new thing for me to write in this way. And I did a lot of research and kind of invented this idiom. And it took me. It took me about a year and a half to like, even be able to write in this style.
- [12:12]
Tracy Thomas
Wow. I mean, it definitely. It definitely feels like a departure not only from Detransition Baby, but also like from the other stories in the book. Like, it definitely feels like the title story because it feels. Feels so different. Like, you start it and you're like, wait a second. As a reader. Which, you know, I think is really fun and exciting because I think sometimes in a story collection, because you have to start over so many times it can feel like you're just restarting the same car over and over. But with this book, and especially with that third story, Stag Dance, it's like, oh, I'm actually starting a totally different vehicle each time. Like, your voice changes. Your, like, lead character feels so different each time from one another. And so there's sort of like a. And I mean this in a good way. Sort of like a novelty to each story that is inviting and also like, kind of scary for the reader of like, what is this going to be? Like, where are we going?
- [13:08]
Tori Peters
I mean, I had definitely. I'm glad that that one is third because it asks the most of the reader. I think that one and like, you know, it was definitely a choice. And I, you know, I do think that, that there are going to be people who are like, wow, like, there's just like four words in this first sentence that I've never heard before.
- [13:30]
Tracy Thomas
I didn't know any of the words. I was like, what the fuck?
- [13:32]
Tori Peters
And like, you know, to me, a lot of it, the fun of it is actually just like, I mean, I didn't. I found this dictionary of like logger slang. I should explain what the story is about. But I like, was reading this logger slang and a lot of it was like, the words are just so chewy. They were so like, like.
- [13:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [13:47]
Tori Peters
In your mouth. Like the word for chewing tobacco is Scandihoovian dynamite. Which I think is like strange way of saying Scandinavian. Like, nobody says Scandihuvian, right?
- [13:56]
Tracy Thomas
No.
- [13:57]
Tori Peters
And like, and, and so to just, you know. But it felt to me like what it's like to talk to somebody. Like, I like the oftentimes experience of talking to people who have just like idioms that I don't know, you know?
- [14:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [14:09]
Tori Peters
Like even some that you just use the metaphor of cars. Like, sometimes I go to the car mechanic and the car mechanic, like opens up the car and he says like 10 words I don't know.
- [14:17]
Tracy Thomas
And you're just like.
- [14:18]
Tori Peters
And I'm definitely like, I'm clearly, I'm very much at the car mechanic. I know it partially because I understand and partially because I don't understand. And that like.
- [14:27]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [14:27]
Tori Peters
And like I was interested at times of reproducing that experience. Like, of course, if a 19th century logger is talking to you, you don't know every word that he says. And, like, that can be uncomfortable, I think, for a reader to be like, you know, because I think the way we're, like, taught to read is like, oh, if you don't know every word.
- [14:46]
Tracy Thomas
Like, look it up.
- [14:47]
Tori Peters
Look it up. Or it's a reflection on you as a reader. And, yeah, you know, for me, I'm just like. Just kind of flow with it, you know, if it doesn't. If a word. If you don't know a word, like, you probably will be a fine. Like, the main points are, I. I think pretty clear and. And the rest of its texture, you know?
- [15:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think that's so interesting, Tori, because now it's my turn to be pretentious. I love Shakespeare. I'm a huge Shakespeare fan. And people are always like, but I don't understand it. I don't get it. And I'm always like, I don't know. Just read it out loud and, like, just keep going. And then if you really, really don't know, like, look at the notes. But I so rarely look at the notes when I read Shakespeare because a lot of it is. I just say it out loud and, like, let it kind of just, like, wash over me. And you can. And, like, the major plot points, you'll figure out, because Shakespeare loves to say them over and over. Like, it's not like he's gonna, like, secretly tell you something. He's gonna tell you, like, exactly who Juliet is to romeo at least 17 times before Act 2. And I sort of feel like that's what happened with this. With this story. Because at first I was like, I. Oh, my God, I'm so confused. And then I was like, just like, go with it. Like, you definitely don't know a single thing about, like, a lumberjack or a logger or even, like, what the difference is between those two kinds of people. So, like, just kind of carry on and, like, see how it goes. And I did switch to audio for a little bit, and the audio reader on Stag Dance, that's the only one I actually listened to parts of. But the audio reader for Stag Dance was so good. And so I think that helped, too, of just being like, I don't know what this guy's saying to me, but I love it here. Keep talking.
- [16:23]
Tori Peters
Yeah, he has a good voice. They auditioned, like, a couple of them. They sent me the audio. So the cool thing that the Random House did for the audio is that they. They got a different reader for each.
- [16:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I saw that story.
- [16:37]
Tori Peters
And, like, That's a production, you know, So I was kind of like. I was a bit honored that I was like, wow, like, four different actors are interpreting each of the stories and, like, yeah, gives it. And I was trying to do four different voices. And so, like, you know, I haven't listened to the. To the audiobook all the way through, but, like, if just hearing, I'm like, oh, this really actually, like, augments what I was trying to do. Yeah.
- [17:00]
Tracy Thomas
I want to ask you about something you touched on earlier that I'm always curious about. Authors who have success with their debut, which is, like, the pressure that you were feeling going into whatever the second book was going to be and just going back to the page as a writer after detransition. Transition Baby was like, kind of everywhere. And you mentioned, like, you sort of wrote Stag Dance as a response to some of that to, like, free yourself up. Do you feel now more free as a writer? Do you feel like you're able to write again? Or do you feel a lot of stress as this book. Book is now coming into the world?
- [17:31]
Tori Peters
No, it really freed me, you know, I got. I got a question yesterday from, like, a. A British interviewer that was like, are you stuck writing trans stories now forever? And I was like. It, like, kind of shocked me, that question. Not. I mean, not. Not only in terms of, like, well, is that so bad? But also like, dude, I just gave you a lumberjack story. Like, obviously trans stories can do anything.
- [17:57]
Tracy Thomas
Like, well, that's like the Toni Morrison question of, like, are you only going to write about black people? Like, that's. What did she say? You have no idea how profoundly disrespectful or whatever that is.
- [18:07]
Tori Peters
Yeah, I should have said that. I should have. Like, you've disrespected me, British fan. But I did. I was. You know, I was. I mean, I just said, I don't think I'm stuck. I'm honored to do it. But, you know, that. That. And that kind of thing was like, you know, it's like, oh, the stuff that I do actually, I get to do anything with. And, you know, we'll see what readers think of it. But so far, like, the publisher, the reviews people are like, seem to be down to, like, go with me on that. And that makes me feel like, okay, well, I want to do. If I want to do something else a little like, you know, surprising people, people might come with me. And that, yeah, that's what you want as a writer. It's just like, that freedom to be like, let Me try something out. And. And, you know, fair people don't want to always go with you up on it, but, like, it felt better than sort of, like, making the same joke over and over and over to diminishing returns, which is what I think I started doing after detransition, baby.
- [19:05]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, I think that's. I think you're right, because I wasn't sure what to expect with this book. And I'm, like, fascinated by Torrey Peters, horror writer. Right. Like, I. Like, the Massacre was so, like, icky. I don't know how to explain it, but it really. Like, it's sticky and gross and, like, I just, like, hated it. And I was like, how is she doing this to me? Right? Like. And so I think. I think not only did you maybe you free yourself up, but I think you freed your audience up to, like, not know what to expect from you. Right. Like, you've now given us five book. Five stories in five different. Extremely different genres. Really? Well. And so for me as a reader, I'm like, whatever she does next, like, we absolutely have to read, even if it's a repeat of one of these five previous ones. Like, I want to see. I want to see you do it again or, like, see you do it in a different way. And so I think you sort of told us to, like, back off a little bit in some ways.
- [20:03]
Tori Peters
Well, that's nice to the. It's nice that you heard my subtext. No, I'm just kidding.
- [20:07]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I got you.
- [20:08]
Tori Peters
Back off. I am so thrilled, actually, that people are willing to come along long. It's. It's like. And. And then I do think that, like, it was a. Like, I needed to write something like this, and I'm proud of it. Like, I wasn't just, like, a therapy thing to write about lumberjacks for two years.
- [20:24]
Tracy Thomas
No, it's good on its own. It's good on its own.
- [20:28]
Tori Peters
But it was, you know, like, it kind of also. It gave me confidence, you know, Like, I. I want to. You know, I have, like, ambitions for, like, I want to write a big novel next, you know, and it's sort of like, well, I now feel like, okay, I can do voices. Like, I can do. I'd never done anything like that before. So now I feel like, okay, I can do different voices. Like, and. And, like, I. And, like, next time I take on a big novel, I have those with me now. And, yeah, it makes me excited to do more things, and it was absolutely freeing.
- [21:06]
Tracy Thomas
You know, I love that I have it. Maybe A stupid question, but what's the difference to you between novel, novella, and story?
- [21:15]
Tori Peters
Okay, so the thing about these pieces, which. Which I almost, like, use, like, pieces on my own when I'm talking about it is like, is that they're actually kind of none of those things. Like, okay, I think that the three ostensibly short stories in the piece that are novellas are all around 15,000 to 17,000 words. That is like an unpublishable length in most publishing industries. Like, if you want to get a story in a magazine, it should be like, 5,000 words is like a good sized story. Like 8,000 is like, you're a star of the literary scene that you're taking up this much space in our magazine. 17,000 is like, what, you want half hour magazine for your story? Like, they don't. They don't give it to you. Meanwhile, 17,000 is way too short for a book. You know, people will be like, I'm not buying this pamphlet. You know, like, and so. So, like, for me, it turns out, like, I actually like letting the stories kind of be the length that they want to be. And so what you have in this thing are, like, are three things that I guess you might call like a novel. Like, in the actual word count, this length is like novelette, which is a word that nobody uses. So if I've been like, I mean, like, I wrote some novelettes, they'd be like, you are confused about how to end the word novel. You know, like, and so, like, stag dance is 42,000. So when I say thousand, I mean 42,000 words. Yeah, I'm referring to. So stag dance, according to random houses, like, like, word count, right. Counts as a novel, but it's like only 2,000 over. So, like, if you'd gotten it, you'd be like this. So short. But like, for me, like, the fun of actually having all these stories is that, like, I can create a substantial book out of a series of things that are the length that they want to be outside of. Sort of like the apparatus of the publishing industry. And I can let the stories be the stories that they want that they should be, which is how people used to write before everything got kind of streamlined. I like that, that I got to kind of do this interesting length of pieces because I do think that they end up resonating with each other.
- [23:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah. I just was curious because I was calling them stories and a novella, but then when I got it, it says novel and stories, and I was like, well, I don't know the difference. At this point I'm like, I don't know. I don't think it matters. I think is really the true answer.
- [23:44]
Tori Peters
Yeah. Like, the funny thing is that's the, the American book says a novel and stories. The British, when, when the Americans sent over to the British novel and stories, they were like, oh, no, no, no, we're not, no, we're not going to say. That's awkward.
- [23:56]
Tracy Thomas
Did they just say stories?
- [23:57]
Tori Peters
They said a quartet. Oh, okay.
- [24:00]
Tracy Thomas
I like that.
- [24:01]
Tori Peters
That's nice. It's elegant. The Germans said, I. I don't know the German for it, but they said a figure in four which was like.
- [24:09]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, wait, I like that the best. That's very stag dance figure in four is like, that's what you would use in stag dance story, you know?
- [24:16]
Tori Peters
You know, it's like, it's kind of what the stories are. Not only just like what you think, it's also apparently like where in the world you are, which is fun to do.
- [24:25]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, let's take a quick break and come back and talk some more. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats. You're the creator, you're the marketer, the customer service team, and somehow you're also supposed to figure out inventory and payments. It's a lot, but Shopify makes it easier. With Shopify, everything is in one place, so you can spend less time stressing about logistics and more time actually growing your business. Need a storefront? Shopify has beautiful, easy to use templates. Selling on social media, Shopify connects your store seamlessly so customers can buy right from their feed. And when it comes to payments, taxes and shipping, Shopify handles all of that too. Shopify makes selling seamless so you can build your business with confidence, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com thestacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com thestacks hello everybody, it's me, Tracy. If you love this podcast the Stacks and you want more bookish goodness, I've got two great ways for you to stay connected. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter Unst stacked over on Substack on Patreon. We've built an incredible literary community. There's a discord for chatting all things books. Monthly book club meetups. The year long mega challenge for all of you who want to push your reading habits to the limits. Plus, you get to be part of an amazing Patreon community that loves books as much as you do. So if you're looking for community and people to talk about books with, head to patreon.com thestacks and then on Substack, I'm giving you my unfiltered takes on book news, pop culture and whatever I'm reading twice a week. Think mini reviews, rankings and more. I just launched a brand new nonfiction series that I am calling the Nonfiction Files where I am talking about nonfiction and digging in to my favorite kind of books in the same way that you might find someone else talking about fiction. So whether you're a free or paid subscriber, there is a ton to enjoy by going to Tracy Thomas Substack. If you're interested in supporting this black woman run indie podcast and getting some amazing extras, head to Patreon Substack or both. I would absolutely love to have you this new year.
- [26:46]
D
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- [27:37]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we're back. I want to talk now about gender and genre apparently. Same word, different language. Speaking of where you are in the world. Okay, you got that question of like, are you done writing about trans things yet? Which so rude. Like sorry to that man. You didn't say it, I said it. Don't worry you I'll get in trouble, but I do. I mean, I think what's really interesting about what you do in this book is like you make us think about both gender and genre as things that are not the way that we are told to think about them. I mean, I think subverting is maybe like the way that a normal person would say that last sentence. And I'm wondering like, as you're writing these stories, how much of it is you saying I want to subvert gender norms. I want to subvert genre norms. And how much of it is you saying this character is talking to me about this thing. Like, what. What. Like, how are. How do you approach? Because I know some writers are like, I sit down, I don't know what's going to happen, and the character tells me everything. And some writers are like, I have a story in my head. I outline it. I want to say these points. I'm trying to get this across. So how are you thinking about kind of what you're doing?
- [28:51]
Tori Peters
I mean, I mostly am looking for what feels to me like an emotional truth, you know, and then I'm moving from there. So, you know, there's. There is the way that you're supposed to. You know, I wasn't, like, sort of like, oh, look at me. I'm so transgressive. It was more like.
- [29:05]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [29:06]
Tori Peters
It was more like, there's the way that I think one is, you know, taught to talk about gender, and then there's the way that it feels emotionally. And those two things are not always the same, you know, so, like, let's say even, like, just something as basic as, like, a transgender identity. And to me, transgender identity only matters insofar as, like, it creates a kind of political solidarity. But the idea that, like, you know, that there's some common thing that's, like, intrinsic to, like, a trans experience that you must have in order to be trans is something that, like, I. It just doesn't feel real to me. And so the stories kind of all push against it. And I. I sometimes say about this collection that, like, you know, people think of trans as, like, breaking apart, sort of like a male, female, binary. But I'm much more interested in breaking apart a cis trans binary where you, you know, at what point does a cisgender person become transgender?
- [30:01]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [30:01]
Tori Peters
What. Who gets to decide who's transgender? You know, and. And that, in fact, you know, when I think about these stories, much of the. Of the emotional building blocks in them that you would. That you'd use to say this character's trans. And by the way, very. Only, I think, like, three or four characters in the whole book actually, like, identify as trans. Everyone else is kind of, like, having weird gender feelings. But the building blocks that you'd say, like, oh, this character might be trans, are actually the building blocks that, like, we're all kind of experiencing, I think, things like, you know, desire the difference between, you know, the way you want to be seen by the world and the way that the world sees you and the frustration of that, like, space, definitely feelings of shame. And what. How are you going to live up to expectations of who you should be feelings of regret, what you give up when you make a choice. These are the things that, like, to me, make a trans experience. But it's ironic because they're also the things that make an experience for everybody else.
- [31:03]
Tracy Thomas
You know, any human being ever.
- [31:06]
Tori Peters
You know, like, you think about my thing recently was like, watching all the right wing guys, like, wave chainsaws on stage, you know, having just written about loggers, you know.
- [31:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [31:17]
Tori Peters
And like, basically what they're trying to do is like, be like, look at me, I'm like a rugged guy.
- [31:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [31:21]
Tori Peters
And you're like, oh, no. Like what you're. Do what you want to be saying and what you're saying is a big difference. And that, like.
- [31:29]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [31:30]
Tori Peters
And then actually like the, the trans people have language or what's going on with your performance right now with your, your chainsaw and the way that it's like kind of failing and the feelings of, you know, the bad feelings that I'm sure happen when you wave a chainsaw and you don't and no, no one is impressed, you know, and that kind of, you know, the questions around, you know, the body that you might have and what you wish the body would say about you versus, you know, I think about again, like, you know, how much people complain about how tall they are in their, in their dating profile. Like, right. Am I seen the way that I want to be seen and how come 4 inches makes such a big difference? You know, that's, that's, that's a body question, same as a trans body question. And, and these, these, like, I don't think that there's anything particularly other about the trans experience. And that makes that, that, that basically inflects the way I write because it feels true to me, not because I'm like, you know, I want to change the paradigm or something.
- [32:37]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Is there any part like, about. I think about this a lot as like a black woman. I'm like, there are some things about like blackness that people are really interested in that are super boring to me. Do you feel like there are things about like transness air quotes that are like, that you're asked about or that you are. People expect from you, that you're like. That is the least interesting part of this to me as a writer, as a trans woman, just in general.
- [33:03]
Tori Peters
I mean, I think like, you know, you get asked a lot about like, you know, surgeries and hormones and stuff like that. And like, you know, at some point that becomes very boring because, like, you know, I've been giving myself a Shot every week for 10 years. And it's just like, Right. It's just. It's like, you know, it's like brushing your teeth or something.
- [33:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [33:20]
Tori Peters
It's like how. How many conversations you want to have about how you brush your teeth.
- [33:24]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Not an actual.
- [33:26]
Tori Peters
Not because you're like, oh, it's. You know, I think there's a way people, like, that's so invasive of my space and. But really, it's just sort of like I don't care about brushing my, you know.
- [33:33]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Like, it's just like such a non part of my life.
- [33:37]
Tori Peters
But, you know, I think that the other thing is that, like, it's the. I think it's the framing that I get bored of, you know, where, like, the trans experiences this particular thing. You know, people be like, right, oh, what kind of like gender augmenting surgeries did you have? And it's like, everybody's doing gender augmenting surgeries all the time. That's what cosmetic surgery is, whether you're trans or not.
- [33:59]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [33:59]
Tori Peters
You know, and so, like the frame. I get so tired of the framing where it's like, oh, what surgeries are you gonna have to be a woman? And it's like, you know, someone asked me that, who's had like a nose job and collagen, you know.
- [34:13]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [34:14]
Tori Peters
Injections. And it's like, what interventions do you have to be a woman? You know.
- [34:18]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [34:19]
Tori Peters
We're both doing it, you know.
- [34:20]
Tracy Thomas
Right. And that.
- [34:21]
Tori Peters
And like, that kind of like awareness of, like, the thing you're asking, asking me about as alien is the thing that you actually already know the answer to. And not only the intellectual answer to, you know, the emotional answer to it, you know.
- [34:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:36]
Tori Peters
That's so interesting. Yeah. I'm feeling what like, you know, it's like, I just want to say to people, like, I'm feeling what you're feeling, you know, like, that's what's going on.
- [34:43]
Tracy Thomas
It's whatever you're doing, whatever why ever you're doing it is why I ever. I'm doing it. Yeah, no, totally. That makes so much sense. Okay. I want to go back to genre. I am obsessed with genre. It's like, because I never thought about it at all before I started really started working in books. And it comes up so much in, like, the publishing world. It's how people sort of, you know, market themselves or position themselves, even though it's not always how the people who are writing or the creatives think about the work as they're doing it. It's sort of something that sometimes can come after the fact. And I, I think that's really interesting. I think it's like, you know, putting, putting those rules on something, like trying to fit something into a specific slot. But I'm wondering, like, when you were writing these stories and, and because you were working towards these genres, like you said, you kind of knew what you were doing, did you feel like it helped you or made any. Made to anything more or less clear in thinking about genre as a writer?
- [35:46]
Tori Peters
Yeah, I mean, I think genre works really well because it gives you kind of shortcuts at times. Like, you know, like, like there's a script, right. And like, what's fun about a genre is the way that you deviate from the script, not so much the way that you follow it. And so for instance, in like infect your friends and loved ones, which is a post apocalyptic story, you know, everybody's already seen Mad Max. They've seen the Road, They've seen all this sort of stuff.
- [36:14]
Tracy Thomas
I've not seen any of these things towards.
- [36:17]
Tori Peters
Not everybody.
- [36:18]
Tracy Thomas
I'm not anybody, actually. I'm a nobody.
- [36:21]
Tori Peters
I've disappeared. You just talking to myself on this podcast. Yeah. Okay, so let's see what post apocalyptic stories.
- [36:31]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, yes, I've seen post apocalyptic things. I know Station 11. I saw a few episodes of what is that? The Last of Us.
- [36:38]
Tori Peters
Perfect. Okay.
- [36:39]
Tracy Thomas
I love parents.
- [36:41]
Tori Peters
Everybody, everybody knows those.
- [36:44]
Tracy Thomas
Well, anybody who's anybody has seen the three things that I just named every. Everybody else might have seen the other things, but also nobody's nobody's.
- [36:52]
Tori Peters
Okay, so. Well, in the Last of Us, for instance, like, people have seen enough that like, if, like there's hunters on the road, right? Like, I can just say that sentence. And if you're in the post apocalyptic genre, you don't have to do anymore. Right? Yeah, where like, if I'm doing like realist fiction, I have to be like, here's these guys and like, you know, they've been looking for a cow to eat for five days, you know.
- [37:16]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right, right, right, right.
- [37:16]
Tori Peters
And if I, if everyone knows the genre rules, I say there's hunters on the. And then I don't have to do anything more. I can just go on to the thing that I care about, which is like, the relationship between my characters. And the only thing that matters is sort of like, what the way I'm diverting from the typical post apocalyptic thing and anything else. I'm just sort of like, yeah, you know, this, like, I don't have to spend time on it and we can stick entirely to the interesting stuff. And it like moves the plot forward so, so, so easily. So, you know, it's the same sort of. In the Chaser, where it's a teen romance where it's sort of like a bro, like an athlete, a jock or whatever, who gets put at boarding school with his roommate Robbie, who's feminine and maybe is a pre transition trans woman. Although the characters don't know kind of what they're feeling, which is important to me to not have them know everything. And in that, so much of what I was thinking about were like these kind of homosocial boarding school novels like Brides had revisited a separate piece mixed with kind of like Twilight, you know, where it's like, there's one character who's got a lot of yearning for something that is forbidden and like. And like that is. That's the formula. Right. And so then it's like. Like what matters is not all of it. It's like that provides me a framework with a bunch of shortcuts to then just make it mine, you know, And I kind of love that stuff.
- [38:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I. I love the Chaser. I can't. I like when you were writing, I guess, that story in particular, but more broadly, all of the things that you've written do you know, like, how much do you know about where you're going?
- [39:09]
Tori Peters
Both the Chaser and Stag dance. I had an idea of where I was going and then I ended up going somewhere totally different. The Chaser, for instance. There's some stuff that. There's some moments of violence that come in the middle of the story and they're kind of like it's an upsetting scene. And in my initial version, the story ended like right there, where it was sort of like a little bit. Was like the thing. It's a little bit with the massacre does where you sort of like punch your audience in the stomach and then walk away.
- [39:39]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [39:40]
Tori Peters
And I did that because it was like a move that I knew how to do. And then actually that story sat for like a year and I was like, you know what that actually doesn't feel like emotionally? Right. Like, that doesn't feel like. That doesn't feel like what I want to do. It doesn't feel like what these characters want. Like, it feels like they need to at least give a try to saying what they really want from each other and to that, like that, like. And that the point of the story is not sort of. Oh, that whether or not they get together in the end but like, whether or not they can just be honest with each other and like, and stop telling each other kind of lies. And that. That to me just felt so much more emotionally true. And so there's a full third more of the story from where I initially ended it. Stag Dance. I got really into, like. Okay, so let me just explain the plot of Stag Dance really quickly for your readers. So what the pause stagnance is that there's a bunch of men in an illegal logging camp where it's own. It's on government mint land, and they go there in the winter when the ground is frozen, so they can drag the logs. And they cut as many logs as they can around the turn of the century and drag them out before spring when the timber inspectors come and they're super lonely in the woods and, like, they're grumpy. And so they decide to have a dance where some of the men can attend the dance as a woman. And to do that, you cut out this, like, triangle of brown fabric and hang it over your crotch, which, by the way, is a historical thing that they did. And then they have a dance. And the plot of the story is that there's one logger who's named Babe Bunyan who's like, great name, Bunyan, because of the. The, you know, because of the. The axemen of legend. He's like. He's like on that Paul.
- [41:26]
Tracy Thomas
Ever heard of him?
- [41:27]
Tori Peters
Yeah, and he's Babe, because Babe had an ox and he's as ugly as an ox. And he decides that he wants to go to the dance as a woman. And he gets like, really jealous of like, the younger, prettier loggers who. Who like, other people want to go to the dance as a woman. And like, you know, it's. It all kind of fall falls. It falls into chaos, you know, when. When he decides to. When the strongest, strongest axeman decides to. To go to the dance as a woman. But I got like, really involved into like, what is the economy of. Of getting these logs out? And I was like, oh, this is going to be so great. It's gonna be like a gangster epic, only with logs or something like that. And then about, like halfway through, I was like, this is. I don't know if this is working. And I looked at it and I realized, I was like, oh, no, this is a high school dance movie in a western. Western. It's like. It's like Carrie. It's like she's all that. She's all that, you know. 10 Things I Hate about You. It's like it all builds up to the big dance and that. There was something really funny to me about these loggers having like a high school dance, you know, kind of set up, which is just like another genre, right. Like sticking a high school dance in a western. Like the incongruity of that was like, amused me. And so I kind of just like jettisoned the whole ending and was like, now it's a high school dance movie set in an illegal logging camp. And it, for me it totally worked that way. And it was like really fun to do it that way.
- [42:55]
Tracy Thomas
You know what's so funny? As I'm thinking about all of the stories, they're all sort of just high school stories. Like the masker is definitely. There's a high school version of this story that's like, who are you going to be with the cool kids? Are you going to, you know, like, it's like that same. I don't know, I feel like there's definitely that like mean, like mean girls. I feel like infect your friends and lovers has like mean girl vibes. It could, you know.
- [43:18]
Tori Peters
Yeah, I think there's a, there's, there's. I think the two things that it feels like are, you know, something I like in especially in doing a short story, right. Is to do like an enclosed world, right?
- [43:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [43:31]
Tori Peters
And high school stories are like a perfect example of an enclosed world. Like sometimes family stories are that way or even like, you know, mysteries are oftentimes like stick 12 people in a locked room and which one of them.
- [43:42]
Tracy Thomas
Did the murder, right.
- [43:43]
Tori Peters
Like you can by having these like almost like nothing outside of the world you can pressurize it so much. And so that's like a, that's a trick that I, you know, that I definitely. I don't think I did in detransition baby. But I do it in shorter form fiction for sure. And I think the other thing is that I'm interested in cruelty. I mean, I would say that the cruelty that I'm interested in is more like sisterly cruelty that like you have to like love somebody and be intimate with somebody in order to be cruel to them. And you know, that to me feels a lot like my relationship with other trans women. Not that like we're, we're, you know, walking around always cruel to each other, but there's the kind of recognition and kinship of a sisterly relationship that makes us vulnerable to each other and therefore vulnerable to betrayal and cruelty.
- [44:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, like intra community relations like that intimacy leads to the cruelty or can or, like, leaves you vulnerable to it, I think.
- [44:43]
Tori Peters
Right.
- [44:43]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [44:44]
Tori Peters
And something. I'm interested. I mean, I think other trans writers are like, you know, I'm not gonna have trans women being cruel to each other all the time. And I'm just like, yes, let's do it.
- [44:52]
Tracy Thomas
But that, again, speaking to your earlier point, that might be true in, in like, your trans experience or whatever, but, like, that's also true in every community. Right. Like, I was a drama kid.
- [45:02]
Tori Peters
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Tracy Thomas
Intimacy leading to cruelty. You know what I mean? Like, it's like any. Any community, any, like, really, you know, intense community that you're a part of. Lead can lead to that because there is the vulnerability and, like, sort of the connection that you have to forge to really be part of that community.
- [45:22]
Tori Peters
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Tracy Thomas
And then. Then there's the mean people, and I.
- [45:26]
Tori Peters
Think you're trying to destroy your life. Exactly. Yeah. No, you're completely right. And thank you.
- [45:31]
Tracy Thomas
Which just speaks to your earlier point of, like, it's all the same shit. It's just like different, you know.
- [45:36]
Tori Peters
Yeah. Different lenses.
- [45:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, different lenses of our boxes. Okay. Speaking of names, we talked about Babe Bunyan, how do you name your characters? Where do the names come from for you? And do they stick usually?
- [45:48]
Tori Peters
Sometimes they do. Like, I feel that I don't have a great sense of, like, naming conventions. Like in Stag Dance, for instance, the characters all did have different names. And then I started, like, looking at, like, the actual names of logger names. And there was so much like, historically it would be like stories about loggers, and loggers would be like, three Finger James came over and it was like. It was like, whoa. You guys really just called each other that? Like, you know, And I was like, well, this is funny. Like, I would never name a character that sort of thing, but apparently that's what loggers did. And so, like, I had to do it. Yeah. Like, I had, like, kind of like reasonable names in the first draft of Stag Dance. And then I was like, I guess I need ridiculous names for all these characters. So I renamed those characters. I'm really bad at naming narrators. Like, a lot of times my first person narrators are kind of like, like nameless. And I kind of enjoy doing first person narrative about gender stuff in short stories because it. You don't have to use any pronouns, so it can all be kind of like indeterminate I, I, I, I all the time. But that doesn't totally answer your question, I think. Yeah, I think it's mostly. It's story by story and as I'm getting more into things like the sound of language, I am paying more attention to, like, does a character's name flow, you know, when you say it? Whereas I think, like, in fact, your friends and loved ones, you know, I just chose names that were, like, common trans girl names at that time, like, Lexi. I knew so many Lexis, and because I think it was like, at the time, there were, like, a lot of people whose names were originally Alex, and then they transitioned and they started calling themselves Lexi. And, like, in that particular, like, naming convention amongst trans people has totally fallen away. So in some ways, like, those naming conventions are. Are, like, a little bit like relics of the time that I was, like, thinking about these people.
- [47:56]
Tracy Thomas
Right. And. And the time that the story is set. Because it's set a little bit. Yeah. Okay. How do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often? Music or no, in your home, out in the world, Snacks and beverages, rituals? Tell us about it.
- [48:14]
Tori Peters
I have, like, kind of completely changed the way I write in the last couple years. I used to be the kind of person who. I mean, part of it has to do with, like, how can you afford to write? You know, like, if you have a day job, you maybe have to write in a particular way. And since Detransition Baby, I have had much more free time to write, and so I kind of, like, have been writing seasonally and then the other big change. So I'll expand that. But the other big change, which, if you read Detransition Baby, I wrote, like, half of it back when I used to take Adderall. So, like, oh, I feel like the first half of it had a kind of, like. Because the way I was living, I would have, like, three days to myself, and then I'd have to, like, work a bunch and like, a kind of emotionally draining work for a couple days. And I have a couple days to myself. So when I would have a couple days to myself, I would take Adderall so I could write for, like, eight hours or something. And the. The flow of those things, like, I read them now, and it's like, it is a little, like, they were initially, like, a little speedy to me. I'm like, and then this happened, and then this happened, and this happened, you know, and when I. And then I stopped midway through writing Detransition Baby, and I started getting, like, into, like, meditation and being like, I'm going to write in the morning, and, like, like, all these writers I imagined, and the style of the writing changed. Like, it got, like a Lot kind of like, in some ways less intense, but also more playful. There was a lot more humor. And I had to edit that book to make the second half read. I mean, make the first half read like the second half. I actually liked the style the second half better, but it was totally inflected by like, the way I was writing and like my life at the time and since then. So, like, I would say that that icky intensity that you're talking about in. In. In the massacre. In a weird way, my way of writing was like, let me get like, super, like, agitated, you know, like, you almost like picture like some like dark German pounding technobies as you're writing this. Like, it's. Yeah, like, icky, sticky, like, dark vibe, you know, which. Which was like what I was in. And. And yeah, you know, I. I think now I. I spend half the year in Colombia. I'm like, eating fruit as I write, you know, like, making fresh. Making fresh smoothies, like, and the. I think I reach for a joke much more than I reach for like a. Like a. Like a knife. And that is partially like, like, literally how physically comfortable I am as I write versus previously.
- [50:58]
Tracy Thomas
I love this for you. This sounds good.
- [51:00]
Tori Peters
This sounds really good for people who like my dark stories. I'm sorry?
- [51:04]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, I like the dark stories, but also, like, I think maybe you should prioritize you over my personal enjoyment. Why Columbia? How did you end up going there for?
- [51:15]
Tori Peters
I started going that. My. My partner had a sabbatical and we went there during pandemic and to Santa Marta on the. On the Caribbean coast. And you know, like, I don't have a good reason for loving it. I just got there and I was like. I was like, I feel like this place is on the same wavelength as me, you know, like. Or I'm on the same wavelength as it. It's probably the less egotistical way of saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, saying it. And so then I was like, I was like, let's go back. And then we went back, you know, for another winter. And more and more I've just kind of been going down and it feels really good in a lot of ways also to like, a little bit be able to write about Americans and the trans context for America outside of kind of like the day to day of like, the news and.
- [52:17]
Tracy Thomas
And like, actually being here actually.
- [52:19]
Tori Peters
Yeah. You know, like, it's like, I'll never, you know, I'm not like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, live forever in Colombia or like, you know, write in Spanish or something. Like, I'm gonna write stuff that I've. I've written, but to have that sort of mental space has, has been really good. And in fact, it's been interesting because as I've been down there, I've been reading more Latin American writers. And Latin American writers often, historically had been writing, you know, through moments of repression. And they would do the same thing. You know, they'd go. They'd go abroad for a couple years and they'd write about, you know, not in sort of like one to one way, but they'd write stories that were about repression in their own. In their home, in their own countries while away. And the kind of like perspective that. That offered. And you know, it feels, it feels good to me to be able to step back and be able to see. Like. You know, I sometimes say that fiction is like pattern recognition, you know, that like, like that actually there's like so much going on then, so diffuse in the, in the, in the connections between things. And fiction is about like creating a story that sort of emulates the patterns and movements that are too big otherwise to capture. And in some ways, like being able to step back, you can start to see the larger patterns that you can't see when you're like. Has your nose pressed up to. Yeah. The situation.
- [53:43]
Tracy Thomas
Like, it's like not a magic eye. It's like a quilt or something.
- [53:46]
Tori Peters
Yeah.
- [53:46]
Tracy Thomas
It's like you have to actually have the distance to like.
- [53:48]
Tori Peters
Yeah. See it. Exactly.
- [53:50]
Tracy Thomas
So interesting. I love this. I love this.
- [53:52]
Tori Peters
I like your metaphor.
- [53:53]
Tracy Thomas
So just build like just. I'm just building on what you're laying down. Okay. You didn't fully answer the part of the question that we care about most here, which is like writing snacks and beverages.
- [54:04]
Tori Peters
Oh, yeah, you mentioned fruit.
- [54:06]
Tracy Thomas
But like, I'm gonna need some details.
- [54:08]
Tori Peters
I'm gonna tell you that there's a fruit somebody needs to figure out how to. How to import better to the United States. Is sapote, I think sometimes called mamey. It is, it is, it. It is orange. It looks like a sweet potato, but it's taste and it's like kind of has a, like a starchy consistency. But it's a fruit. It grows on a tree. Tastes like the best milkshake you've ever had. And it is entirely its own flavor. Like in the same way that like, you know, if you have like a Jolly Rancher and there's like a cherry and there's a. Yeah, apple. Right. Like, it's like those are flavors that are just like their own thing.
- [54:53]
Tracy Thomas
It's just cherry flavor. It's not cherry. It's, like, cherry flavor.
- [54:56]
Tori Peters
So Cherry.
- [54:56]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that.
- [54:57]
Tori Peters
It is, like. It can be, like, distilled to a flavor.
- [54:59]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right, right, right, right. Like, how. How Blue. Raspberry is just, like, blue flavor. Like, it's just, like, the way that the color blue tastes, but you have.
- [55:07]
Tori Peters
To, like, you know, it's its own world of flavor.
- [55:11]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [55:11]
Tori Peters
You would never. You can create products in that world of flavor. You can have the original fruit in that world of flavor, but it's. It's its own world.
- [55:18]
Tracy Thomas
Own thing.
- [55:19]
Tori Peters
Yeah. And you can't really say, like, oh, a cherry is a bit like a raspberry. People will be like, no, it's its own. These are separate worlds. Sapote is its own separate world, but it's like a world that I think we should all visit more.
- [55:31]
Tracy Thomas
I'm looking it up right now. Oh. Oh. Okay. I. I feel like I have seen this fruit before when I was in Colombia.
- [55:41]
Tori Peters
Yeah.
- [55:41]
Tracy Thomas
This feels familiar to my eyes. Okay, you have officially answered the snack question.
- [55:47]
Tori Peters
It's available in Florida. I've had.
- [55:49]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [55:49]
Tori Peters
I was like. At one time, I was in South Florida, and there was, like, somebody selling, like, popsicles on the side of the road, and one of them.
- [55:56]
Tracy Thomas
Sapote flavor.
- [55:57]
Tori Peters
Yeah. Which I didn't know was Sapote, because I think they. They call it mamey. And. And someone was like, that's Sapote. And I was like, I need it now.
- [56:07]
Tracy Thomas
You're like, stop.
- [56:08]
Tori Peters
You know, pulled the car over immediately kind of thing.
- [56:12]
Tracy Thomas
Usually when someone answers with a fruit or vegetable as a snack that they eat, I shame them for that. But because you brought a unique fruit and gave a detailed explanation, including the word milkshake, you have passed the snacks and beverages question.
- [56:28]
Tori Peters
It is. It is. Absolutely is a dessert like it is. It is a luxury. You look. You luxuriate in a supposed. I'm not. This is. No. This is. No. Like, I had a. I had a bean for a snack or something.
- [56:42]
Tracy Thomas
No, that would be immediately cut off. The interviewer. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [56:49]
Tori Peters
Weird. I mess up the I and the E. Yeah. And I use that word a lot, too, so I don't understand why I don't just learn it, but I. Somehow it looks the same to me. It just looks.
- [57:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [57:02]
Tori Peters
Like. And if there's not, like, the red line underneath it, you'd never know. I would never know.
- [57:08]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [57:08]
Tori Peters
And I know the rules about it and everything. It just looks right.
- [57:11]
Tracy Thomas
The more you're saying. And I'm, like, trying to picture in my head. And now I don't know. I think it goes E first.
- [57:18]
Tori Peters
Yeah. Isn't it I before E except after C?
- [57:22]
Tracy Thomas
Well, now I don't know.
- [57:23]
Tori Peters
Okay, but then now, which is weird, right? Like, that's the rule.
- [57:25]
Tracy Thomas
But maybe no weird. Yeah, but weird is different. It's E first.
- [57:29]
Tori Peters
Okay, so weird breaks the rule. That is the rule.
- [57:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Well, that's how you should remember weird is weird.
- [57:34]
Tori Peters
Weird.
- [57:35]
Tracy Thomas
It's not, like, normal or whatever.
- [57:37]
Tori Peters
I have a form E except after C and weird.
- [57:40]
Tracy Thomas
And. And. And whatever I'm thinking is wrong. Correct. Currently. Okay, I just have a few more questions for you. For people who love Stag dance, what are some other books that you might recommend that are in conversation with what you did?
- [57:56]
Tori Peters
So I think, you know, what I'm. What I was trying to do was a kind of, like, Americana thing, and I think that, like, you know, the references. There are these books that are. That are a little. A little baggy, like a little hanging out. And, you know, the sort of classic one is Moby Dick. You know, like, it's a book that's, like. It's written in a weird vernacular. And, like, you just kind of have to, like, get into the idea of hanging out in that book. You know, I think that this is not a True Grit, which most people don't read that book, but so good.
- [58:32]
Tracy Thomas
I read it last year for the first time. Loved it.
- [58:36]
Tori Peters
Oh, yeah.
- [58:37]
Tracy Thomas
Loved it.
- [58:38]
Tori Peters
You know, that's another one that's just like. It's like the pleasure of that book is just, like, hanging out with this character who's. And all of these characters are a little, like. They're. They're not dumb, but they, like, have. Like. They're, like, simple. They're simple. They have, like. And there's, like, a comic. Yeah, there's a comic aspect to what are actually very, very dark stories. Like, True Grit is a dark story.
- [59:04]
Tracy Thomas
It's a sad, like, grief book that's, like, cute and charming.
- [59:07]
Tori Peters
It's, like, funny and charming. Yeah.
- [59:09]
Tracy Thomas
And, like, I always say, I'm like, it was so lovely. I had such a lovely time with Maddie.
- [59:13]
Tori Peters
It was great. When she fell into the cave. That was a great time. That's no spoiler there. That happens at any point in the book. Yeah.
- [59:23]
Tracy Thomas
Also, this book is, like, so old, and there's been, like, 17 movies. So if we don't know what True Grit is at this point.
- [59:28]
Tori Peters
Yeah, there you go. It's like, so the tone, you know, of that, you know, there was like.
- [59:32]
Tracy Thomas
I actually thought of True Grit as I was reading oh Bag Dance Story.
- [59:37]
Tori Peters
I love that. That makes me feel good. I mean, the other things that I think inspired me was A Brief History of Seven Killings by Marlon James where the story is nothing like that. But I really liked the way that he was like, it's not exactly like Jamaican dialect. It's. It's something where he's like, it's. It's flavored by that. But I'm actually going to make it totally my own and I'm going to like remix all of it. And that, like, permission that I saw that, like, I initially started writing only like real logger words like that were. And I tried to like make everything like, you know, get cut out, any anachronisms and stuff like that. And then I was like, why am I doing this? Like, Marlon James just did whatever he wanted. And it was like, great to read. Like, we're not reading a history book here, we're reading fiction. Like, let's just do whatever is fun. So I did that and then, you know, and I started thinking about that and actually that like all of my favorite books are that do kind of voice are not. They're not like pastiche, they're not super accurate. I mean, I thought about like Blood Meridian and I was like, nobody on the border of Texas and Mexico is speaking in like King James English. Like the cadence of that, you know, but he just did it and it kind of like worked. And so like learning to follow like what feels like felt like it worked for me, you know, and knowing that like, that those, those books all have like a very specific reader, you know. Yeah. And like.
- [61:06]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [61:07]
Tori Peters
And just kind of to be like, this is going to be for. For a reader who wants to come along on this journey. And though all those books were freeing for me, I would say, and therefore in conversation with them. Yeah.
- [61:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I love that. Okay, just two more quick questions. One is, what's the next genre you want to write in?
- [61:27]
Tori Peters
I want to start writing a little bit more about like, money and like the connections between like transness and politics out there. I mean, there's a weird way in which like, transness right now is at the center of this political moment. Like, it's weird you didn't choose it.
- [61:43]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [61:44]
Tori Peters
Probably would rather not be here. But like, it's like, it's like, it is like, you know, this kind of right wing system has chosen transness to center and to make it this point. And it's like. And at some point, it's like, how is this working? You know, that like. Like, people who love crypto also, you know, are obsessed with transness. And there's all these connections between these cultural forces around, you know, who has money, who has power, how these things flow. Yeah, that I'm like, I feel the web, but I can't figure out the story that will hold that. And that is, like, the thing I'm searching for is like, that's sort of what I mean. Political economy is like, why. Why. Why transness now?
- [62:30]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [62:32]
Tori Peters
And. And. And can we. Can we make it legible in fiction and in the story?
- [62:38]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my God. Okay. Well, I can't wait to read that. That sounds very, very me. Last question. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [62:48]
Tori Peters
I would say Emily Dickinson.
- [62:51]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, okay. I don't think anyone's ever said her before.
- [62:54]
Tori Peters
That surprised me that I said that. I, like, was, like, looking out the window, and I was like, am I gonna say it? I think I'm gonna say it.
- [63:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, you said it. You didn't.
- [63:02]
Tori Peters
You know, I just think that she's also very, like, playful with language and, like, does a kind of, like, Americana thing. And I. You know, I think she had, like, a kind of, like. I could be totally wrong with this, but I kind of vaguely remember that she had, like, a kind of butch thing going. And, like, you know, there's, like. She never married, and there's stuff with gender going on, and it was kind of of her era that I was running into. And so I actually think. I mean, probably she would just be like, I don't know what this is and I don't care to or something, and move on. But.
- [63:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, well, her reaction is not important.
- [63:38]
Tori Peters
Yeah, her reaction. Whatever. I don't care what you think. Emily Dickinson.
- [63:40]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I literally asked you. Anyways, I just sent you the art. Can you blurb this, please?
- [63:46]
Tori Peters
Yeah. Like, you have a job to do. No one can. So, yeah, that's who I. That's who I send it to.
- [63:53]
Tracy Thomas
I love it. Okay, everybody, go out in the world. Get your copy of Stag Dance. You can get it wherever you get books. You already talked about the audiobook book, the narrator, at least for the Stag Dance story. Fantastic. But there's three other narrators, so for my audiobook people, I. I'm gonna vouch for this one. I read a lot of it off the page. Vouch for it off the page. It's so good. It's such an interesting dive into genre and gender. Thank you so much for being here, Tori.
- [64:20]
Tori Peters
Thank you for having me. This is really, really delightful.
- [64:22]
Tracy Thomas
Oh yay. Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Tori Peters for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Aaron Richards for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember, our book club pick this month is they Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, March 26 with Tempe Denton Hurst. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Das with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.