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The Stacks
Ep. 364 They Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones-Rogers — The Stacks Book Club (Tembe Denton-Hurst)
01:04:57
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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Hey listeners. I'm here to tell you about an exciting event that's happening on Sunday, May 4. It is called Stack the Shelves and it is a special pop up bookshop that the Stacks is hosting dedicated to supporting individuals and families impacted by the recent Los Angeles wildfires. We're going to have books, author signings, a kid's corner, food, music, lawn games, special guests, and more. And so now here's the part where I turn to you, the amazing Stacks community, and ask you for help. In order to make this day a safe, smashing success. We need volunteers local to Los Angeles. We need your donations, which will be tax deductible thanks to our partners at LA Room and Board, a fantastic nonprofit. 100% of your donations will go directly to families, including gift cards to Octavia's Bookshelf so they can continue to build their libraries. And we need your help spreading the word. Head to the snackspodcast.com shelves to get all the details. Again, that is the stacks podcast.com shelves.
- [01:05]
Temby Denton Hurst
No, there's just like some vivid imagery in here where I was like, I will never forget this. I think that what's really difficult about this particular book is they continue to get the best edit that's continuous. And I don't think that it's about vilification, but I think it's about lifting the veil and understanding that everybody has autonomy. Regardless of how the society seems to be set up from the outside. That autonomy is very much there, very much within the grasp. I'm like, you guys would not be participating in this if it did not benefit you.
- [01:42]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today is the Stacks Book Club Day. This month we are discussing they Were Her Property. White Women as Slaves. Slave Owners in the American south by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers. With our returning guest, author and journalist Temby Denton Hurst. This groundbreaking work of history challenges the long standing narrative that white women were passive bystanders to slavery, revealing the ways they actively participated in and profited from the institution. Tempe and I talk about the economics of all of this. The violence, the cruelty and the idea of slave mastery. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our April book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, there are two great ways to do that. You can go to patreon.com thestax to join our readerly community and or you can go to tracythomas.substack.com to subscribe to my newsletter. Both of these places get you inside access and they help me make this podcast every single week.
- [02:51]
Temby Denton Hurst
Week.
- [02:52]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, now it's time for my conversation with TEMBY Denton Hurst about they Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers. All right, everybody, it is the Saks Book Club day. I am joined again by the wonderful TEMBY Denton Hurst. Temby, welcome back to the stacks.
- [03:13]
Temby Denton Hurst
Hi. Thank you for having me. Times two.
- [03:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, thank you for coming back. Thanks for showing up for the second time and not standing me up. We are reading this month they Were Her Properties, White Women as Slave Owners in the American south by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers. I will say this up front to people. There's no spoilers here because this is a history book. But we are going to talk about the book in detail. So if you didn't read it and you are worried about being spoiled about the 1830s, 40s and post slavery days, go ahead and pause. But otherwise, let's, let's dive right in. Temby we always sort of start in the same place for book club, which is generally overall, what did you think of the book?
- [03:55]
Temby Denton Hurst
I liked it a lot. I think that in some ways, and this is no shade to Stephanie, I think that she just was consistently reinforcing the same ideas throughout the, throughout the book. So I will say that not that it's repetitive, but it's, it's, it's. And it's not even dense, but it is just kind of a lot of her saying, here is my point in the first paragraph and I'm going to continue to show you various instances of when this happened to back up and like refute the scholarship that kind of speaks to the contrary. Beyond that, though, I really liked it. I think it's a very unflinching kind of book that does not pull back and shy away from the realities of what was going on at that time. And I think that it's something that people should be reading or at least at the very minimum, just be aware of. Like I'm like even just read the intro, you know, I will say, I think in the point of it being, I don't like to use the word repetitive, but just the point that she makes in the beginning is the, is a through line throughout the book. So I think that even knowing the through line, understanding the through line would be helpful if someone did want to tackle the whole Thing.
- [05:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think I agree about. About that. So overall, I mean, I think this is like kind of a wow of a book as far as, like, the research and the detail of what. What Stephanie E. Jones Rogers, like, puts on the page. She is digging deep. She is going to the archive. She is finding sources. And to me, it is a. A big wow. I do think it's a touch repetitive, but I want to talk about why that is. I think that's where we should probably start after this little bit. I think that, like, my big takeaway is just like, we really just don't know our history. We're not taught it. And by we, I mean brough. Broadly American citizens. I don't mean, like, I know there are people who know this information. I know there are people who've had teachers who have taught them and all of that. But, like, broadly, the fact that this book exists and she's refuting all these other scholars is just like, wow. So we were just teaching and, like, academics were just researching a history that maybe just wasn't what happened. And I think that's really crazy. And also just like, how regular the institution of slavery was. Like, how every day this was, was. I. I know that. Right? Like, I know that's what society was, but reading about it really shook something in me of just like every. The everyday mundanity of owning other humans who were the rock and center of the economy is just, like, felt crazy to me.
- [06:40]
Temby Denton Hurst
Absolutely. I think what I found really interesting too, was that she. What I think she really gets at, and I really liked, was that she, by presenting the kind of opposite. Not the opposite, the preceding scholarship that kind of tried, tries to conceal the role of white women in the south. And they're. It's like the infantilization is always happening in this kind of presumed innocence or crafting innocence is something that's happening at every single level. And so I do think it's helpful because I think. Think that reading this hopefully would make people more critical of the content that they're consuming, even outside the context of this book, and not just relying on certain narratives to define the way that they perceive a person's actions. I think I wrote in, like, I have so many notes in here. And one of the things that I kept writing was just like, oh, wow, like, the Innocence Project has been going on for a very long time. Like, this idea of. And like these kind of the patriarchal bias, which I think works two ways. Like, I think, yes, obviously on the bigger. In like, a bigger sense in the Way that we talk about it most often is the way that the patriarchy kind of restricts and delays progress for women and like, curtails a lot of their ambition and all of those things. But then I think we talk about less often, more now, but I think we talk about less often is the way that it protects and continues to refuse to hold accountable an entire group of people who are actively benefiting. And I think when we talk about, you know, we talk about the election and like, how white women broke for Trump, like in this massive number and people, I don't think, I think black women were not necessarily surprised or like, we know that this will happen again, but I think that there were like a lot of white women, liberal white women who were like, I'm so perplexed. And I think you read things like, you know, they were her property and you understand that these things, like, not only are these women aware and intelligent, they understand that these institutions are set up to protect them, regardless of how it has to look outside to other people. Because so much of the book is about the interior life of these slave owning women and how even when their power kind of. And there were times when the power was very public and people were aware, which I think is part of the case that she's making. But there were also instances that she pointed out where the power was like a little bit more hidden or she was using various representatives in order to do her business, more public facing. But ultimately she was the one pulling the strings behind closed doors or she had all of this interior power within the home. And so I think it really does blow open and refute that notion of, well, white women were too genteel and we're just there. And whatever cruelty was happening was like not really doled out by them or that kind of, that narrative or this just kind of like they were innocent. And I think that this book really makes the case in the opposite direction in a very compelling way. And I think it's required reading if for only that, like, just for people to understand that, like, it doesn't. It's not just complicity by way of silence or proximity, it's also participation.
- [09:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think to your point, I mean, you made some really great points. One of the things is, like, this book really shows how systemic this is, like, in the sense that it's part of the system. The system has a caveat for white women to be able to be abusive masters, mistresses, and also to have the COVID of being a docile, gentle woman. And I think one of the sort of tricks of white American patriarchy is that it does carve out a space for women to perpetuate it and still be able to have, like, plausible deniability because it is essential to the furthering of the patriarchy, right? Because women have to have white babies. And if you don't have those people on board with your system, you don't have new little patriarch monsters running around, right? Like, if. If the white women decide we're not having babies, we're not continuing this, we're not teaching our children this, the system falls apart. It is contingent on women in. In the same way that slavery, as we find out throughout this book and as we know, is contingent on the bodies of black women and their ability to have children. But the other thing that you brought up that I think is really interesting and we should definitely talk about is the inside, outside of all of this. The what happens behind closed doors versus what. What is allowed to be seen outside, including what history is allowed to be continued to be taught, as opposed to what history is. What things are lost to history, what things we. We couldn't find. You know, we think this, we think that. And Stephanie is like, nah, bitch, I got. I got the quote for this. Like, this happened. This is what they said. But before we get into that, I want to talk about the academ, all of this, because as we were reading this with the stacks pack on discord, there was a lot of conversation about the repetition in the book and how she would make a point six times when maybe she only had to make the point two times. And I thought a lot about this. I also reached out to my sister who is a professor of ethnic studies at Tufts, and I. I asked her some questions because I wanted to make sure that what I'm about to say was correct and. And fair to. To Stephanie E. Jones Rogers and her work. But one of the jobs of academic writing is that you have to further some sort of point. You have to have a point, and your work is beholden to a certain amount of sighting and evidence. And I guess this is especially true for historians. And they have to have a burden of proof from the archive that is, that has to stand up to peer review. So other experts have to read your work and feel convinced that your arguments are by actual evidence. It can't just be like, I extrapolated this. It has to be like, they said this, they said that. I mean, they can extrapolate a little bit, but there is, like, a real requirement that you cite your work. And. And one of the things that my sister said that I thought was really interesting is that oftentimes historians now who are telling the stories of oppressed people feel an extra responsibility to tell their stories in detail because their stories had been suppressed. And Stephanie E. Jones Rogers talks about that in the introduction about her choice use the conversations that formerly enslaved people had as they were cat like, cataloging and being interviewed throughout the 1930s. And. And I think that that point is really important to what she's doing in the book. That she's really saying, okay, I've made my point. But I need to make sure that the people who were making this point in real time, who have been overlooked by historian X, Y and Z, that they also get their chance to make their point, which can feel maybe a little bit repetitive. But I think as far as, like, a historic. A history text, it's important because this book goes into some sort of archive. It becomes the next generation of history. And so I think, like, reading this book just as, like, a person reading the book and not thinking about the book as, like, a document for future historians to look at, it's doing two different things. And I think it's important sort of to just, like, call that. Just to bring that forward for readers.
- [14:14]
Temby Denton Hurst
Absolutely. I think people going into it should definitely be aware that it's an academic text. And, like, I got my master's in English. And so I'm, like, very used to reading kind of academic stuff, but usually in the English crit, like, space. And so there is a lot more extrapolation in that environment. Because it's like, oh, we're gonna unpack Beloved. And, like, think about what are the signifier. Like, what does this signify? What does that signify? And it'll be like, you know. You know, I love an academic title. Cause it'll be like, you know, like, for example, like with Toni Morrison's playing in the dark whiteness in the literary imagination. Like, that is. I think it's, like, academic light. Like, it's fairly accessible. But I think that that's, like, a perfect example of a literary criticism text that could be used, like, in an academic setting for someone to understand, like, how things. How things are operating on the textual level. And even in there. Like, she's a lot freer with just. She said, I'm gonna make my point one time. And I'm gonna say nothing else. But to your point, like, what Stephanie E. Jones ro, like you said, is essentially provide. Not just make her argument, but also create, like, a bibliography for future people who Would like to do deeper research or would like to expand this conversation. Because there's a lot of ways that this conversation could have went. It could have. You know, you could be talking about, like, an antebellum time. You could be talking about, like, if someone wanted to write about, like, white women and the way that they operated post. Like, post the end, like, post the Emancipation Proclamation. They could start here. Like, every chapter heading that she has could be its own jump off specialized research paper for a young historian or just someone who was interested in the field that wanted to have, like, go deeper, think bigger or just be more. Not even go bigger, but just, like, go deeper in the one specific section.
- [15:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:59]
Temby Denton Hurst
Or use it as an opportunity. She brings up so many names like you. There's a lot of stories that you could go investigate if you wanted to. So, yeah, I. I am. I'm actually. I'm pro. The fact that she was very repetitive because it really drives the point home. But I just think for the average reader, it's like, I can. That's why I'm like, I understand. Yeah.
- [16:19]
Tracy Thomas
People were like, if I'll repetitive. I mean, not only does it drive the point home, but one of her big points is that this was common.
- [16:25]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [16:25]
Tracy Thomas
So to make that point, she has to have 10 citations, not just two, because then you could like, oh, this is only two points. The other thing that I wanted to bring forward that Sarah, my sister, mentioned was that this is Stephanie's first book. And so she was a tenure track, and she's now an associate professor. So this book.
- [16:44]
Temby Denton Hurst
Also.
- [16:44]
Tracy Thomas
Her career hinged on this book. To get her tenure, she had to write this book. It had to be received by her peers in a certain way. And so there might also have been a sense of like, I'm going to prove the shit out of this so that I can get that job security in a way that maybe her second or third book, if she continues to publish in academic spaces as opposed to traditional publishing, whatever trade publishing might. Might read differently. But that this first book is a huge thing for academics to get under their belt in order to make sure that they get tenure and have that job security. So in addition to, like, wanting the book to be good, she also had a lot of other pressures, like going into it that might have been like, okay, let's put that citation there. Like, I don't want Mr. Tenure Track Guy to tell me this or that. Um, and then the other piece of the academic that is less. Less of about the repetition, but more. I was obsessed with how many people she named and was like, you might think this as historian xyz. XYZ did, but actually that person was wrong. No, let me tell you why. She was just like, shade, shade, shade, shade, shade. I love it here.
- [17:54]
Temby Denton Hurst
I think also it's important to note that she's not like a historic. She doesn't like really engage in like historical fabulation, which is the process of kind of weaving in storytelling. And I mean, she does a little bit of storytelling to kind of set the scene, but like, doesn't kind of evolve the narrative. Not like a writer like Tiya Miles, who's brilliant and just incredible. But like, you read like, Tya Miles has that one book. I think it's Tya Miles, correct me if I'm wrong, but she has that one book about the knapsack that is like the artifact that she kind of imagines worlds around the artifact. And so it's like, it's just like a different way of thinking about history. That this is very much like, you could probably line it up next to all of the documents and then have like. She's not like imagining anything in this. She's not. She's not sensing, like, she's not giving voice to anybody. She's like, no, I'm gonna let them say it. And you guys do with that information what you will kind of thing. So. Yeah, yeah, I think that like. And I could say Tyya Miles, for example. I think she's. She. Her work is very crossover friendly because it's.
- [18:53]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [18:54]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know, it is that kind of thing. Whereas this is very academic. And I think it's good if you want to debate somebody on a Friday night and be like. And I can actually point to this and that.
- [19:03]
Tracy Thomas
This exact line and that and that and that.
- [19:06]
Temby Denton Hurst
I liked it though. Exactly.
- [19:07]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I did too. Okay, so let's. I just wanted to make sure we did that pre talking about the rest of the book because I wanted to make sure that people's like, concerns or questions around the style were addressed. Now I want to talk about this idea of mastery. I. To me, this was like a real mind blowing word situation. I had never thought about a slave master or mistress as the master of anything. Like, I thought of like the word master as like the person who's in charge on the plantation, but not that they had mastery like that they like it was a talent or the art. Yes. That it was a skill and a talent and something that you could improve. And the idea that there's like pamphlets and books of being like do this magazine.
- [19:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
Magazine. Like a junior. Like, they had, like, a junior version of it.
- [20:00]
Tracy Thomas
It's like Cosmo Slave Mistress. I'm like, wait, what? But, like, the idea. I mean, I think maybe if you had asked me, I would have been like, yes, some slave masters were better than others at the job of owning humans and running a plantation. But the idea that, like, these people, as abhorrent as it is, were masterful in their ability to abuse and exploit human labor to run a business, like, all, like, these pieces of it, that was really, like, perspective changing for me.
- [20:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [20:40]
Tracy Thomas
And like, that there could have been, as considered by the other people of the time, a skill to this. That some people are, like, cut out for the job and some people aren't. Or like. And that you. That you train your children from a young age to be ready to do this work. I don't know. Like, that shifted something in me.
- [21:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think I kind of had a little bit of a different thing going in because I understood especially. Okay, so what. Because I read Playing in the Dark Whiteness in the Literary Imagination. One of that Tony talks about, Morrison talks about in that book is how, like, these manifest destiny style novels that exist. And there's this one, I can't remember what it was called, but she was talking about how he was like, you know, he went to England, like, did all this stuff, like, was very, like, learned and whatever. Like, basically was like a gentleman, but never really felt like a real gentleman or like, really, like nobility until he came to the south, owned slaves, started plantation. And like, then he really felt like he was civilized or he was, like, better. And so because of that, I was like, yeah. I mean, there had to be an entire economy around this or this idea of, like, there is a class and status thing. One, with being land owning, two, with the amount of, like, you know, slaves you own. Because I think in our minds, as perverse as this sounds, the only people that we. They kind of venerate the people who own the biggest plantations in a way. Like, even if they try to pretend that it's like, not. They're not proud of it. These are the things that get turned into historical sites. These are places of immense wealth. And I think that it's similar to having a kingdom or it's like, to me, slavery in the south feels the most resembles most closely these mini fiefdoms or, like, you know, you know, like these mini kingdoms. I don't know. I think people kind of frame the slave owners in their minds Especially now as this kind of like. Or people. The way people look at the south and, like, look down at the south is like, backwards or whatever it is. Like, this was the economic engine of America, of the country. And so because of that, I'm like, yeah, these people were. I'm like, I'm not surprised that they had a whole entire culture around.
- [22:56]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [22:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
Like the business. Because we. I mean, it's like the Wall Street Journal, you know, like, you know, do we have all these. Like, they make. They make plunder and all this stuff sexy. Like, yeah, you know, something. Like, I'm not shocked because I'm like, that's kind of just like. It feels like a. Just like an earlier version of certain things that we have now. I mean, like, even. And like, for example, like, I'm a meat eater for sure, but, like, there's people who would look at, like, animal husbandry and the various ways around animal husbandry, and they're like, I don't like slaughterhouses. I prefer, like, this grass. Finished cow, but, like, the cow dies regardless. Right.
- [23:34]
Tracy Thomas
Like, Right, right, right.
- [23:35]
Temby Denton Hurst
And so I think it's kind of. And I don't think that they're exactly comparative because obviously humans versus animals and things like that, but I just think that, like, there is an entire. Like, there always are, I think, not only rituals, but, like, culture around.
- [23:50]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Well, they had to build an entire economy around the thing.
- [23:54]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [23:54]
Tracy Thomas
Like, not like a whole or a entire industry around the economy or whatever. Like.
- [23:58]
Temby Denton Hurst
Like there's like a tertiary economy.
- [24:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Like, you could be employed in the world of slavery, but, like, you're. You're a slate. You're. Beats slavery journalism or whatever. Right. Like, you don't necessarily. I mean, you don't have to own anybody. You don't have to be an overseer. You could just be the. The guy or gal who finds hot tips on how to wet nurse or whatever. And like, I think. I think, like, that piece of. It was shocking to me, but also just. I had never thought about the word master as implying that you could be masterful at the job, if that makes sense. Like, I just hadn't thought of that second meaning of master. I. It just was like, masters, what they called people who own slaves. I don't know why I never thought of that. Like, it feels so obvious to me now, but her talking about Matt, the mastery of the whole thing, was a real, like, mind. Because I just was like, right, of course. And. And they would talk at the dinner table about, oh, I heard this guy's doing this thing with his. With his slaves. Like, I gotta do that. Or like, no, they're up over there. They're not doing this. Or like, what? Like the whole. I don't know.
- [25:11]
Temby Denton Hurst
I just. I mean, even the people who felt. I think what's interesting is, like. And it really makes me think about, like, liberalism. People who are like. Like, I just don't. I don't want to. Like, don't be. Be. Don't be horrible to the slaves. It's not abolished slavery. It's just, be nice to them. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like this weird. Like. And I guess for me, I'm always like. But it's just the same conclusion. Either you're for it or you're against it. I'm really. I'm one of those people where I'm like, you're either an imperialist or you're not. You're either kind of like.
- [25:37]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [25:37]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know, you're either a fascist or you're not. Like, it's not like you can't do, like, friendly fascism is.
- [25:42]
Tracy Thomas
There's no grade. Scale. There's no grade.
- [25:43]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, like, there's. Yeah. Some of these things are not, like, morally gray, you know, And I think that, like. Yeah, like, that's what I'm saying. Like, and we can look at slavery and think, like, that's not a morally gray thing. Like, slavery is bad. But there was a lot. There was a time not that long ago, and there's times right now, like, if you talk to people about prison labor, they're like, right.
- [26:00]
Tracy Thomas
You know, it was committed a crime.
- [26:02]
Temby Denton Hurst
In the early 2000. Prison labor was not objectionable. That was the way that people made their money. You know what I mean? Like.
- [26:07]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [26:08]
Temby Denton Hurst
We talk about, like, firefighters who are prisoners, and, like, you know, they do, like, feel good stories on them, but, like. But then they can't get jobs when they come out of jail. It's very. It's one of those things where it's. You're either for it or you're against it. Like, what are we. What are we doing?
- [26:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And I think, like, she makes the point in this book of even. She's like. Even the most like, benevolent slave owners. It wasn't about the people. It was always about the economics of it.
- [26:31]
Temby Denton Hurst
It was absolutely.
- [26:32]
Tracy Thomas
You know, she has the. The one woman who the husband used the cowhide to. To whip the enslaved people, and she used the nettle whip because the nettle whip didn't leave scars. So when she went to sell people, they Wouldn't have scars on them. And it's like, oh, maybe this is the nicer way. Like, she was so nice. She used the nettle whip. But, babe, she was always worried about the check. It was never about how it felt on your body. It was always about how she's going to resell you, how she's going to turn a profit. And I think, like, the piece of the benevolent slave owner, like the nice people who didn't hit or whatever, is oftentimes, like, it stops at the punishment or it stops at the violence. But I think this book was one of the first times that it ever connected for me that it was never about that piece of it. It was never about being nice or not. It was always about the check at the end.
- [27:25]
Temby Denton Hurst
Absolutely.
- [27:26]
Tracy Thomas
And I think she draws that point really well throughout the book.
- [27:29]
Temby Denton Hurst
I mean, I think also the nettle whip of it all, like. I mean, to that point, like, the nettle whip, it would. It would burrow deeper into people's skin, and then it would sting. And so it was secretive in a way. Like, the pain was. The pain exacerbated over time. Like, it got exponentially more painful the more they tried to treat it. And I think that that speaks. That to me was like, one of the most powerful metaphors in the book of the difference between brutality as exhibited by men and brutality as exhibited by women. It's that it's the. Like, it's insidious and it's painful and it's deep, but it's, like, almost.
- [28:04]
Tracy Thomas
But it's hidden.
- [28:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
It's hidden. You know what I mean? And I mean, for me, it really. So I don't know if you've ever been to the African American Museum in D.C. yes, I have, but I think it blew my mind. And we were on the bottom floor. I mean, the whole thing was just a lot, but we were on the bottom floor. And they have, like, a little. They had, like, in the case, like, a white woman's whip, like the mistress's whip. And it was, like, tinier, and it was, like, just smaller. And they were like, this was always, like, really pain. Like, it was a. Like a kind of a more painful whip, in a sense. But she would, like, keep it on her and, like, hold it at her hip, like, for any kind of, like. Like infractions, like, throughout the day or whatever. And so to me, I was like, oh, you know what I mean? I was just very like, yeah, got. You heard. You understand? You know, like, yeah, they're working in tandem, or she's working alone. Like it was, you know, But I was like, no one gets absolved. No one gets absolved. And I'm like, even if it doesn't look to be something, I think. And I mean, if we look at now thinking about, like, the ballerina farm of it all, when people are like, save her. I'm like, she does not want to be saved.
- [29:02]
Tracy Thomas
Saved. She's fine. Don't save her.
- [29:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
She don't want to be saved.
- [29:06]
Tracy Thomas
Don't save her.
- [29:06]
Temby Denton Hurst
No. Like, she called.
- [29:07]
Tracy Thomas
No.
- [29:08]
Temby Denton Hurst
Not only is she not saved, like, she will go to the ballot box and make sure that you will be subjugated. Like, you know what I mean?
- [29:13]
Tracy Thomas
I think that, like, she's not trying to save you. That's her damn sure.
- [29:17]
Temby Denton Hurst
No.
- [29:18]
Tracy Thomas
The power is in a lot of ways, the most important thing internally, inside. But the performance is the thing that allows the power to exist. So the outside performance of what it looks like, what other people see, is as important as the power itself. Because without it, you can't have the power. Like, if people knew what happened inside, if people knew who was doing what, it gets. The whole thing gets blown up. Right? That's like when she talks about the, like, doctrine of coverture, where women, technically, legally, they don't have any power. Legally, they belong to their husbands. Legally, they're not their own person. But then internally, we find out that the power structure is like, no, babe, I have a. An anti nuptial. I loved the ante nap. She said, no, baby, I have this first. This is mine. This works under the law. I don't care what the coverture shit says. That's fine. Like, we can pretend like I'm the Mrs. But these are my humans that I own that were given to me at birth, on my. When I got my period, at my wedding, just because. And like that the performance of white womanness is. Can be at odds with the. With the actual interior power of white womanness is. I mean, it's scary.
- [30:41]
Temby Denton Hurst
I think what was interesting too, about the covetour thing is that there were provisions and exclusions specifically for slavery, which I think speaks to the way, like, white women were not really going to bat over land, you know, like, that really wasn't the thing. It was really just. It was really more. So the currency was human people. The currency was people. They were her property, so to speak.
- [31:04]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [31:05]
Temby Denton Hurst
And with that in mind, I think it really speaks volumes about how intimate that violence has always been, because they've always been human beings. And I think that as much as even in the Book where they're kind of talk, like, you know, they have the little, like snippets of people's correspondence with one another. Like, even in the attempts to kind of separate themselves from a. And create hierarchy, they're aware that these are people. They're aware that, like, you know, it's not confusion. Like, everybody's. Everybody knows what's happening. Like, it's at. At best, at my most generous, a willful ignorance. And I can't wait to hear you. At your most generous, it's a will for willful ignorance. And at worst, it's a intentional performance of, you know.
- [31:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [31:55]
Temby Denton Hurst
This psychological separation, that kind of. It. It must take a lot of mental energy, I'll say that, to pretend that you don't own human beings. But I think it's really. I don't know, I think there's something very intimate about the violence.
- [32:12]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, I think the mental gymnastics of this whole thing become. There were moments in the book where I was like. Like, do you remember the. The quote the woman had where she was like, well, there's always going to be a subservient race. And if we were the subservient race, like, I would be fine. Like, I'd be totally fine if people own me and did to me what I do. I'm like, would you, like, let's. Let's try it out, Megan. Let's see how it goes.
- [32:37]
Temby Denton Hurst
No, I mean, I think there's always. I think the idea that, like, slavery is inevitable. I mean, we've seen that ideology kind of just creep and exist through the generations. This idea that somebody has to be the winner and let it not be. And, like, it has to be us. It has to be you. Like, if you're very Ricky Bobby very. If you're not first, you're last.
- [32:55]
Tracy Thomas
Like, yeah.
- [32:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
And this kind of totalizing. There's no gradation. Someone has to be dominated. We know who should be dominated. All of this language, you see the. The most expressive version of that in this book. And then you also see just how honestly at odds that thinking is with how people live in every day. Like, I think we think about slavery, that era, and think that, I don't know, it all feels very flattened into one. And because we weren't around, I think that's part of it. And obviously the brutality was there and, like, consistent. But it's like, like you said, people live normal lives around the brutality. It was normal. It was normal for them.
- [33:37]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [33:38]
Temby Denton Hurst
And so they would probably pass judgment upon people who were Killing their slaves. But that would necessarily stop them from spending time with them. That wouldn't stop them from breaking bread with those people. That wouldn't stop that. You know, they weren't shunned by the community for that.
- [33:52]
Tracy Thomas
Right. I think, like, the, to the point of, like, the punishment, I guess. Like, one of the things that this book, like, it makes hard for me is on one hand I fully understand how we got here and where we are now. And on the other hand, I'm just like. So we really just said white women can do whatever the fuck they want. And we're gonna say that they're lovely, demure, kind people, you know, like, they just got like the best edit ever in the history of human beings.
- [34:19]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, absolutely. Because I think that's the thing. It's like, that's the contract. And I think that we have to. I think as black women and as black people in general, we have to stop thinking that we factor in at all. Because again, it's always been a drama of the domestic sphere. And everybody else who is not within the domestic sphere, everybody who's not human, AKA non white people, they don't really factor in to. They're not consequential. So, like, the slave dies. That's a loss of wealth. That's not like, oh, a human being is gone. If the husband dies, then a person died, you know what I mean? Like, and so it's like, of course they get the best edit because the subject, like them being equals is negative for the man. Like, you know, for, for maintaining the patriarchal structure, for maintaining that. But, like, that's really just between them. Like, they have always been infighting. That has very little to do with the rest of us. And so I think that's why, like, we saw, like with the feminist movements, it only gets to a certain point and then it's like, oh, well, you just extracted the labor from black women and like black feminists and use them for your aims and then eventually abandon them. Or we see the. I will cut my arm off before I let the vote. Like, we see all of that stuff because it's not about us even. You know, it's always about the own. Like, it's like a. It's an infighting. Like, it's not really. So for me, I'm always just like, I never really see myself as like, being in deep alignment with, like, people. I'm like, I can't trust that you are not low key. You got the best edit in history and you're not even right. You like play into that still and you're.
- [35:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And you're not even trying to change it. You're just like.
- [35:55]
Temby Denton Hurst
No, literally, it's like the white women tears thing. It's all of that stuff of like now I'm crying about, you know, like all of these. It's like we. It's all a learned. It's all learned. And it's also right between them.
- [36:06]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Wait, let's take a quick break because I want to, I want to stay on this point. Hello everybody, it's me, Tracy. If you love this podcast the Stacks, and you want more bookish goodness, I've got two great ways for you to stay connected. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter Unstacked. Over on Substack On Patreon, we've built an incredible literary community. There's a discord for chatting all things books, monthly book club meetups, the year long mega challenge for all of you who want to push your reading habits to the limits. Plus, you get to be part of an amazing Patreon community that loves books as much as you do. So if you're looking for community and people to talk about books with, head to patreon.com the stacks and then on Substack, I'm giving you my unfiltered takes on book news, pop culture and whatever I'm reading twice a week. Think mini reviews, rankings and more. I just launched a brand new non fiction series that I am calling the Non Fiction Files where I am talking about nonfiction and digging in to my favorite kind of books in the same way that you might find someone else talking about fiction. So whether you're a free or paid subscriber, there is a ton to enjoy by going to tracythomas.substack.com if you're interested in supporting this black woman run indie podcast and getting some amazing extras, head to Patreon substack or both. I would absolutely love to have you.
- [37:26]
Temby Denton Hurst
Introducing Instagram Teen accounts.
- [37:28]
Tracy Thomas
A new way to keep your teen safer as they grow. Like making sure they always have their seatbelt on.
- [37:33]
Temby Denton Hurst
Alright, buckle up.
- [37:34]
Tracy Thomas
Good job. New Instagram Teen accounts, automatic protections for.
- [37:38]
Temby Denton Hurst
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- [38:17]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we're back. The something that you were saying that I just like is connecting dots in my brain is also like this, as you were saying before, like this is all about them. It's nothing to do with the rest of us. And also how it's like a learned thing. And in this book she talks in the early chapters like about how it's learned and the ways that, you know, enslaved people had to say master or, or sir or miss to like a three year old child or that, that someone could just sell you away from your whole family to get a wedding dress like that. You are taught from an early age that, that if you're a white person, those people are here in service of your life. And if you're a black person that you are, you are not a human. You are a chip for a dress. You are, you are here to, to make me feel good about my 3 year old being master or whatever. And like, I don't know, those are some of that early stuff of like how it was done, how you build a system like this and how you perpetuate it through generations. I mean the passing of enslaved people from generation of generation of generation of a family, different households. Like we, we read husband, slave, master, master, slave, husband, wife and, and they taught. That's like a big piece of the story is like Ellen Craft, she belongs to one, to the dad, but lives with the daughter and then to the husband and the uncle and this and that. And it also happens with Frederick Douglass. Like he's, he's passed around throughout a family when he's enslaved. Like brother in law and this and that. But like that there are women who belonged to the, the mother, then the daughter, then the grandchild, all in their lifetime and were passed down at weddings and stuff. Like, I mean, I mean the thing is like, I don't know, I don't have a.
- [40:13]
Temby Denton Hurst
There's so many ways that they like there has been a way to civilize like kind of like whitewash and gussy up the brutality. I mean having a ceremony for the slaves to be passed on is quite literally insane. Yeah, it's.
- [40:27]
Tracy Thomas
And like the thing, the wedding where it was like 50 and 50.
- [40:30]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. I was like, this is crazy.
- [40:32]
Tracy Thomas
I was like, I was like, what was the dowry? I mean she, at the end of the book, she gives a dollar value of like someone said, I Just bought this. I just bought this right before that. Like, right before the Civil War. And the woman's like, I just bought this person for twelve hundred dollars. And she says that that person in today, that in today's money would be $36,000. You're telling me you have $36,000 times 50 times 2 for your wedding present?
- [40:59]
Temby Denton Hurst
But also it's like, I mean, to that point though, $36,000 one time, you never have to make it again. Especially if you have, like, you know, got to pay that again. And then like, the labor then belongs to you forever and ever and ever. Like, the extraction of that labor. I mean, also just. I don't know. I kept drawing so many out on parallels. Like, I was like thinking about the black best friend and, like, how she kind of exists just to, like, help the white character navigate, you know, herself, or she gets to be the mess and the black girl is the one who's all together. And she's always this constant, like, sounding board. Like, I just feel like we're always helpful self development in a way. In all. And like, in the book, it's like the. Always a resource, never a human being. And so that's kind. And we see that play out even up till right now. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, and I think that. Yeah, and so I just think that that was really interesting. But to your point about the children, I mean, the kids getting to beat this, beat the slaves was crazy. The brutality of it all. The one where they were like. They were like rocking over the lady's face and broke her face. Oh, my God. That was insane.
- [42:01]
Tracy Thomas
That was insane.
- [42:02]
Temby Denton Hurst
No, there's just like some vivid imagery in here where I was like, I will never forget this. And I don't know, I think that what's really difficult about this particular book is that, like you said, they continue to get the best edit that's continuous. And I don't think that it's about vilification, but I think it's about lifting the veil and understanding that everybody has autonomy. Regardless of how the society seems to be set up from the outside. That autonomy is very much there, very much within the grass. Like, they could have revolted. You know what I mean?
- [42:36]
Tracy Thomas
Like, the women, the white women.
- [42:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, they could have revolted. And I'm like, you guys would not be participating in this if it did not benefit you, right?
- [42:46]
Tracy Thomas
And I mean that, to me, that's the thesis of the book. White ladies owned slaves because it was good for white ladies.
- [42:52]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, like that.
- [42:53]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, not not to. Not to diminish the years of work that Stephanie E. Jones Rogers did, but it's like they own white women owed slaves, because you guessed it, it was good for them.
- [43:06]
Temby Denton Hurst
It was so good for them.
- [43:07]
Tracy Thomas
Because the second it was, the second it wasn't good for them, they wouldn't do it. Right. Like this. Like, that's what we've really learned is like, the second things don't benefit white people, it's done. We don't need it.
- [43:20]
Temby Denton Hurst
And that's why you will not see me marching in nobody's street. I said, and not today.
- [43:28]
Tracy Thomas
I saw the craziest thing on Threads this morning. I, like, opened my threads and it was this white lady who was like, of course we're boycotting McDonald's, but my kid found an actual four leaf clover. So I said, we have to get shamrock shakes for everyone. And I'm like, excuse me, that's fine.
- [43:48]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know, I'm like, that's fine. Whatever. I think. Okay.
- [43:51]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [43:51]
Temby Denton Hurst
I also wanted to talk about that weird law that they had where it was like, if you caused a slave's death. But you said, I didn't really mean it. They were like, you're so right.
- [44:03]
Tracy Thomas
The malice.
- [44:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [44:04]
Tracy Thomas
There had to be like expressed. Like malice.
- [44:07]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yes.
- [44:08]
Tracy Thomas
Of the punishment for it to be.
- [44:09]
Temby Denton Hurst
And I will say this. I think one of the reasons why I think that this book is required reading is because it shows how institutionalized brutality is and how like, like the law is also crafted upon mental gymnastics. Like the fact that there are provisions to explain. They were like, but what was her intent when she decided to kill the girl? And then they were like, but if this other. If we had other slaves kill that slave on your behalf.
- [44:41]
Tracy Thomas
Right. You. Then the murder slaves are in trouble. Not the murder orderer.
- [44:46]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. And we know. And we know about that. We know that the person at the very top very rarely is the one who gets held accountable for the things.
- [44:53]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And you're to your point. Like a lot of these, the laws that were made back then around shit like this, like, those laws still are impacting our laws now.
- [45:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
Right.
- [45:04]
Tracy Thomas
Like, we have manslaughter, which is different than murder one or murder two or whatever. It has to do with like, like intent.
- [45:12]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Tracy Thomas
And like, I mean, I don't. I don't know about law, so who knows if that was already there. But the idea that like, you could just be like, it was an oopsie murder and not a, like, I fucking hate you murder. And those things are different because there's a Dead person who was accidentally deaded or, like, was deaded without malice.
- [45:30]
Temby Denton Hurst
Like, so it's like South Carolina law stipulated that if a slave died as a result of a master's punishment and no other white persons were present to witness the incident, the slave owner could exculpate him or herself by claiming that the violence had not been afflicted maliciously. And I'm just like, that is crazy. They said if a white. You could not. If a tree falls in the forest, AKA black person is the tree, and no one white is around to hear it. Because they're like, even if all of the slaves on the plantation were like, we watched it happen.
- [45:57]
Tracy Thomas
We watched it.
- [45:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
They literally, it was brutal. It was horrific. They were like, and why would we believe any of you?
- [46:02]
Tracy Thomas
And why would we believe you? And to further that, historians for years since then have said, well, we actually can't use the accounts of slaves or people who are enslaved because, like, what did they know?
- [46:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
Even though they were there, even though.
- [46:17]
Tracy Thomas
It was their life? I mean, there's a. I think it's on page 39 in this book where she talks about how enslaved people knew the laws, like, inside and out, because they needed to. Because there was an urgency and a necessity that, like, benefited them to know what the was going on. And that historians, after the fact are like, like, they did. They couldn't read. What would they know? And it's like, that even that piece of it of, like, the erasing for. Of the enslaved people from being part of the narrative or having any value to add to these stories. And as we talked about the inside and outside of it, the inside part is crucial to the telling of these stories. And the people who were inside, the black people who were inside, we are told, are not reliable narrators. Like, because it is not in service to the outside people.
- [47:07]
Temby Denton Hurst
Absolutely. And I think what's really interesting, too, it's like they talk a little bit about another person. Her name was like, a woman named Fanny who was killed by her, like, the slave mistress or whatever. And basically that she was never held accountable. And, like, even if it was a white woman who killed the slave, like, it was very rare or, like, didn't happen. That that would be who was, like, listed on the suit because of that whole coveteur thing. So it's like, you could own the property, but, like, if you were to damage the property, then you would not necessarily be held accountable publicly. And I think, like, that cover, like that innocent. That level of innocence is quite literally insane. Like, that is, again, you get the best edit because, like, nobody. It was hidden from you. And I think also too, when we think about how a lot of the people who fought for the south and like, fought for slavery were people who benefited probably from the tertiary economy. Like, maybe they worked in the jail. Because like, what was also interesting to me too is that like the police essentially functioned really as just like a support staff for the plantation owners. Yes. Like, they were just like. Their whole job was to like, like.
- [48:08]
Tracy Thomas
Sometimes round them up.
- [48:09]
Temby Denton Hurst
Round them up. And then also you could like hire them to beat your slaves for you. Which was crazy.
- [48:13]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, which is crazy.
- [48:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know, I mean, and that like.
- [48:16]
Tracy Thomas
Class piece of it.
- [48:17]
Temby Denton Hurst
We don't gotta draw the parallels. They just kind of speak for themselves. However, what I found really fascinating about that is that like, just like how hegemony and like nationalism and buying into the story of the elite class is one hell of a fucking drug. Because. And I do think too that like, if women did not see themselves represented in that story, why would they also have like, been okay with it and like, wiping their husband's brow when they came home from war? You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, this served everybody. Like, I'm sure that the girls who were reading Rosebud, their little weird ass TV magazine, like Mrs. Cosmo. Yeah. Literally, like the predecessor to Evie. People who were reading Rosebud are. We're not just the women who own slaves. Like, I'm sure that it was also little girls.
- [48:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Who were aspirational.
- [49:01]
Temby Denton Hurst
Exactly. Because the girls who read Vogue are not only the girls who have money, because otherwise Vogue would be defunct or like.
- [49:07]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [49:08]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know what I mean?
- [49:08]
Tracy Thomas
And like, why would you read Vogue if you had money? You just have the clothes.
- [49:12]
Temby Denton Hurst
Literally.
- [49:12]
Tracy Thomas
I don't need to read about the clothes. I am wearing them. I can tell you what it feels like. One of the things we absolutely have to talk about is the chapter on the wet nursing. We talked earlier a little bit about mental gymnastics. I think this is a chapter that required certainly some mental gymnastics from. From the white folks because, you know, morally it does. This becomes quite a conundrum if you believe that black people are subhuman and stupid and lazy and all of these things. And you also believe that the essence of a human is passed down through their breast milk. It becomes complicated for you to tell me that it's okay for this black person who is beneath you in every way, to provide literal nourishment for your child, who is apparently better than that black person. Like, but I Mean, I mean, I don't. I don't think they really believe that.
- [50:02]
Temby Denton Hurst
I don't think that's the thing.
- [50:03]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I think they believed this is convenient for me and this is useful. And I don't want to breastfeed because as a person who has breastfed, it is hard and it sucks. And I. Like, I'm not saying that I would own a slave, but I'm saying if there was a ethical way to have someone help me, like. Like, I don't know that. I mean, my breast pump helped, but I also just quit after a while. Like, I understand why you would want someone else to help you with that labor, but I think the idea of, like, this and this and, like, making it, like, just. Just say that our milk is the same as your milk. Like, you don't have to make us worse than you just take the milk and do the. Obviously, that's not how slavery works. I mean.
- [50:41]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, because it's like, if we then start. I mean, what's really fascinating to me, too, is just the, like, how, you know, the whole, like, it's always darkest before the dawn thing is how I think and I. Darkest before the dawn. If we think about time kind of in a broader sense, like, not in human. Like, not in human years, but, like, in lifetimes. It's like when they outlawed slavery elsewhere in France and things like that. I think things were bad for slaves before that. Of course. Absolutely. But the focus was not. And I think we talk about, like, this kind of came up in, like, I've learned a lot about, like, slavery outside of the US and so far as, like, in the Caribbean and, like, you know, the Middle Passage and the triangle of, like, you know, the various stops that it made or whatever it is. But, like, there was a lot. Like, before it was kind of like, we don't want pregnant slaves because.
- [51:31]
Tracy Thomas
Right. We just are useless. Literally can't do shit. Yeah.
- [51:35]
Temby Denton Hurst
Kill them and kill them and bring another batch, you know, and then it shifted to now we have, like, an entire. It's like the. It just evolved and adapted. They were like.
- [51:45]
Tracy Thomas
Well, when they outlawed the bringing of actual new people. Fresh.
- [51:49]
Temby Denton Hurst
Exactly.
- [51:50]
Tracy Thomas
From Africa, then it had. You had to rely on the stock that you had until all of a sudden, women became incredibly more valuable because they could have more children, they could increase your investment. One woman could give you 12 kids if you were lucky. When. It also meant that you had to take care of pregnant women and value their pregnancy, because if you didn't, you don't get new stock.
- [52:16]
Temby Denton Hurst
But it was interesting, though, because it was like the child. Like, the fate of the child was never really. You know, we don't know. I mean, to talk about the wet nurse thing, it was like a lot of that wasn't. It wasn't like, oh, we're just dual feeding. It's like, no, like, that baby is gone for whatever reason.
- [52:32]
Tracy Thomas
Some cases the baby was gone. Some cases it was dual feeding, but just the violence of, like, the loss of children and the loss of connection with your own children. And also the fact. Okay, so this was another moment where I was like, why did I never connect this dot for myself? All the pieces were there. I just never put it together. But that. Actually, that's not true. I did put this together. I think it's just a reminder because as I'm saying this, I'm like, wait, I. Fudgeing. But that. That the raping of enslaved women was. Was also a. Like, a good business decision.
- [53:05]
Temby Denton Hurst
Absolutely.
- [53:06]
Tracy Thomas
And that you needed to keep your wet nurses pregnant so that there was a supply of. Of breast milk. And, like, the, like. I think. I think sometimes, like, in popular media, the. The ways that, like, the rapes of enslaved women are portrayed as, like, the master is attracted to her and, like, wants to get his kicks off. And I think that there's, like, there was a much more calculated version of that that this book drove home. I mean, well, and it might have been both things, but also it was a. Financially, I think. What's the word she uses a lot? Pecuniary.
- [53:44]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [53:45]
Tracy Thomas
Pecuniary is the word of this book. But, like. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
- [53:51]
Temby Denton Hurst
I mean, too, like. Like, yes, raped by the master of the house, but also raped by the, like, various slaves.
- [53:57]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, like, people, like, like, forced.
- [53:59]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. And also the intentional separation of people who seem to be too, like, chummy with each other. You know, like, too kind of if. If they were like, oh, like, it looks like these two because slaves couldn't be married. So it's like, it seems like these two, like, have an interest in one another. Maybe I will. Because again, like you said, it was like, there's this mastery element. There is this. Because it's like, if you allow two people to form an emotional connection with one another, parent, child, whatever the case, anything, you then introduce not only humanity. And then people start to think, like, I actually have family. I have something to protect. I have something that I'm willing to kill for, something I'm willing to die for. Like, you can't allow people to have to, like, to really build Emotional bonds. But then also there's love. People understand, like, love is powerful as a. It's a powerful motivator in any direction.
- [54:47]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [54:48]
Temby Denton Hurst
And so if you see two slaves who are, like, looking like they might be in love, maybe they'll run together. Possibly that's a. That's an option. Or maybe they will, like, or, like, I mean, there's just a lot of things that could happen. I think that they're like, that's not a good idea. So it's like, I'm sure it was not uncommon to be like, okay, so you're a woman of an age. I'm going to cut whatever you have off going, I'm sell him away, or I'm just going to have you have a baby for somebody else to ensure that this is like, that we're severing this kind of time. And also, white women are known to be. We're known to be, like, incredibly, like, jealous and violent towards slaves who seemed to catch the interest of the master. Like, the way that the children of the like, like the mixed children or the like, mixed kids running around were treated was not well, they were not treated better. Like, that was also a whole thing. And I think too, like, I mean, even the misgenation laws of, like, post slavery, of, like, banning, you know, interracial couples. I'm like, laws are really usually reactionary. And so those things, like any. A law that is saying you can't murder your slave is because there was a lot of slave murdering going on.
- [55:55]
Tracy Thomas
People are doing it.
- [55:56]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. Like a law that's saying you can't. Like, we don't want people to be mixed is because of the fact, like, we don't want, like, biracial children is because there's a lot of biracial kids running around, and that's because of life.
- [56:07]
Tracy Thomas
Me. But you know what I'm saying, my biracial ass. They were like, no, Tracey, go home.
- [56:13]
Temby Denton Hurst
You know what I mean? It's like those things are always so reactionary. And so I just found it very fascinating to like. And to your point, like, you were saying, like, they. They had to be good enough to nurse the child. It's like everybody knows that they're human. Everybody knows this. We're all aware.
- [56:30]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Right.
- [56:31]
Temby Denton Hurst
This is also just. This is a performance of the highest.
- [56:33]
Tracy Thomas
You can tell me it's subhuman, but you can't. But if, if we're subhuman, explain to me why you don't take your baby to nurse on the cow in the barn, right? Like, we know that. That black people are humans because we know that they can nurse our children. We know that they can be impregnated by us. Like, so, I mean, it's all. I mean, it's just the. Again, the convenience of, like, the lie. We're running out of time.
- [56:57]
Temby Denton Hurst
Oh, yeah.
- [56:58]
Tracy Thomas
There. There is one thing I want to touch on about the. About the. The fall of slavery.
- [57:03]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah.
- [57:03]
Tracy Thomas
And while I am not particularly sympathetic to people who owned and abused other humans, it is crazy to think that there was this entire economy. Rosebud magazine, like, had a whole industry, and then there's a few years of war, and the shit's just, like, gone. Like, obviously, it wasn't fully gone, obviously, like, sharecropping, all of these things, you know, whatever. But the idea that something this big and massive existed for so long and then they're just like, no, it doesn't. Is crazy. On two reasons, for two reasons.
- [57:39]
Temby Denton Hurst
One, I mean, ask people from Detroit, you know, say, who lost automakers. Like, it's kind of like that kind of vibe. It's like, it just. The industry kind of dries up, like, you know.
- [57:48]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [57:48]
Temby Denton Hurst
I mean. I mean, talk to. Talk to Wells Fargo about their original. Where mortgages come from. You know what I mean? But a lot of people, the most richest ones were, like, made whole in a way. Like, they got their money.
- [57:59]
Tracy Thomas
That's. They did. They did. But it's just, like, a crazy thing to be like, this is just gone. And I think the other thing that really stuck out to me about sort of like, the parts about the Civil War is, you know, the north always is like, this was a war about slavery. Like, this was a war to free. Free the slaves. And then the south is like, no, this was a war about states. And I think what's really interesting is that the truth is actually the opposite of like, the. The north claims that it was about the slaves, but it never was. Because when the Emancipation Proclamation came down, people who were enslaved in Union states were not freed. I did not know that. I had no idea that if you were enslaved in a Northern state when the Emancipation Proclamation came down, you were not freed. Which is point. Quite impartial to the fact that this was not about slaves for the north, actually, which I know we know, but, like, that is just, like, very clear, obvious evidence. And I feel like the south claiming that this was not about slavery or was claiming this was about states rights is like, we obviously know this is.
- [59:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
I mean, it was about states rights in the way that they wanted the rights to own slaves.
- [59:07]
Tracy Thomas
To own slaves. Right. But also, like, they there. I think that it's like, a little bit reductive in that case, because it's like, this is about not just owning a place. This is about our entire country economy, our entire way of life. But I was, you know, I just. The Emancipation Proclamation, that was that new to you? Did you know that?
- [59:27]
Temby Denton Hurst
No. I mean, I think that the way that we're told is like, the Emancipation Proclamation free the slaves. But I mean, we know that, like, the reason why.
- [59:32]
Tracy Thomas
We knew that. Yes, we knew that enslaved people in the south didn't know that they had been freed. And that's like how we get Juneteenth. We knew that people were keeping their slaves enslaved after the Emancipation Proclamation. I did not know that. That did not apply.
- [59:47]
Temby Denton Hurst
Right.
- [59:48]
Tracy Thomas
To enslaved people in the Union. Like, I think that was my biggest of all the aha moments I had. I. I had to like, go back and read it three times as I was like, what am I reading? Like, what am I. What is this?
- [60:00]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, you know, like, honestly, I live in a world of non surprise when it comes to the way that people.
- [60:07]
Tracy Thomas
I love to be surprised. I know that it's like, very cool to like, morally being surprised as, like, people look down on. On. On being surprised. I'm always surprised.
- [60:15]
Temby Denton Hurst
Oh, no, I don't look down on being surprised. I'm just like, whenever I read anything, I like, you could tell me, you're like. And they were using their body parts for spoons. I'd be like, that sounds about right. You could tell me any. You could tell me anything. You could.
- [60:27]
Tracy Thomas
I think I also live in that place of, like, nothing surprises me where I'm like, that doesn't seem possible. But the fact that, like, the information is just like. Yeah, like, I'm just so surprised that, like, I didn't learn this by now. You know, I'm just like.
- [60:42]
Temby Denton Hurst
I mean, I think that that's. That's because we never actually. The south was not punished. Like, the only people who got reparations were white people. Like, they talk about how President Johnson was like, they were like, restored right in property. So, like, when people, if they had stuff that was over $20,000, they were made whole. And that's how our government has always functioned. Them banks. Them banks needed that bailout in 2008, and they were like, here you go.
- [61:03]
Tracy Thomas
The airlines.
- [61:04]
Temby Denton Hurst
Do you know what I'm saying, though? Like, that's really how it is. It's like, if you have enough Money, you will never be broke in America. Everybody who's harmed by it, like the people who fought for the Confederacy, then they become. They become the hicks, quote, unquote, right? They become the. They become backwards, they become this, they become that. The people who were fighting essentially for their way of life. Because that tertiary economy, what we're talking about, that tertiary economy that benefited them, they just. They got over. But the people who had the money, they still got the money also. The idea of it has to be north versus South. The north wins racial equality. We build towards racial equality. The KKK is started by this. It has to always be the South's fault. It always has to be the South's fault because. And that's the contract, right? It's always a social contract. And I think that, like, for me, I always see it as. Not necessarily. It's not just like two sides of the same coin, but it's like a domestic dispute in a way. Because I think if it's the South's fault, and we're always saying, it's the south, it's the south, it's the south, right? We ignore, like you said, the unions, like, the union still had slavery, but, like, nobody talks about that, right? Because that would disrupt this idea as, like, look at the big leap forward we made. And the government that we got was the fair one, right? That's. We got the progressive one, we got the government that was like, for freedom and freedom for all peoples. And obviously there were big shifts, like reconstruction happens, all the things. Like, it's not to say that we didn't make any progress, because obviously we're on this podcast talking right now, like, and we are protected by a lot of rights and we have the right to free speech. We can go buy guns if we wanted to. We could do a lot of things.
- [62:41]
Tracy Thomas
Allegedly.
- [62:42]
Temby Denton Hurst
Allegedly. We have a lot of. We have a lot of rights as a result of, yes, this evolution. But at the same time, it was kind of like, you be the fall guy, but the rich ones be like, just.
- [62:56]
Tracy Thomas
Just shut the fuck up and file your complaint. No, shut the fuck up and file your compensation claim.
- [63:00]
Temby Denton Hurst
Literally, file for your compensation plan claim. We will make you whole. There was no real consequences. No, like, nothing really happened.
- [63:10]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Exactly. We have to go. I want to ask you. Usually we talk about the title on the COVID Do you have any thoughts about the title and the COVID on this book?
- [63:18]
Temby Denton Hurst
I love the name.
- [63:20]
Tracy Thomas
I love the name.
- [63:21]
Temby Denton Hurst
Yeah. No, I think it's great. And I just think that, like, I actually think that all White women. This is required reading for all white women. Back to front, cover to cover.
- [63:29]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, get out your highlighter.
- [63:31]
Temby Denton Hurst
Get out your highlighter. Contend with it. Sit with it, all of it. Because I think that the story that we've run with is this kind of like, almost like white women who are engaging in oppression or voting for oppression or all of these things. Like, there is this infantilization, like, they don't know any better. And we have the quote, unquote, northern women, or the coastal elite, as they like to call them, right? They are just. They need to be saved. Like, if only they had information. If only they had. I don't even know what they wish that they had. They be trying to save people. I'm like, these are not people who want to be saved. These are people who are happy to let their men be the fall guy in public so that. And they are happy to look oppressed so that behind closed doors they can have power. Like that is. But I think that this book explains that so well, and I need to read it for that reason.
- [64:26]
Tracy Thomas
I think also, though, to your point, this book also explains the coastal liberal white woman who is like, what can I do? Like, everyone else did this. Like, I believe in these things. I want these things. But like the other 46 or 52 or whatever, they did this and I'm helpless and there's nothing for me to do. I think that also that point of view, the, like, good white woman is in this book, right? Like, that you, good white woman, could not. You are not separate from the bad white women.
- [65:01]
Temby Denton Hurst
I mean, not only are they not separate, I think that these white women are essentially pioneers for the white women as a whole. I mean, to your point about the edit, like, they get the best edit in the world, inclusive of the white women who wielded their power openly or wielded their power via the men who kind of take the fall for them, essentially, or, like, look to be the ones pulling the strings, being the ones in charge. So it's like this book to me really illuminates the ways that people will jump through in extraordinary hoops and even lie to make. To manufacture innocence, even when there's evidence to the contrary. And it's not about just like total culpability, but it's about complicity and understanding. Like, if there's benefit, there's probably agreeance. You're very rarely going to find people who are benefiting and hating at the same time. Like, in a real way, enough to shake some shit up, right?
- [65:55]
Tracy Thomas
And that's Real, right, Right. I think we should end there. Temby, thank you for reading this with me.
- [66:02]
Temby Denton Hurst
Thank you for reading this.
- [66:04]
Tracy Thomas
You're the perfect person to read this with and I'm so grateful that you would talk about it and read it with us. People listening. Stay on till the end because I'll tell you what our April Book Club pick will be. It's Poetry Month, so there's your hand, but I'll let you know what we're reading. Y'all need to read Temby's book Homebodies. You'll need to subscribe to her substack extracurricular. I will link to all those things in the show. Notes Temby. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank.
- [66:32]
Temby Denton Hurst
You, thank you for having me. Always a pleasure.
- [66:35]
Tracy Thomas
And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Temby Denton Hurst for joining the show. Now it's the moment you've been waiting for, our announcement of our April Book Club Pick. It's Poetry Month. We are going to continue our poetry tradition and read Blessing the Boats New and Selected Poems, 1988 through 2000 by Lucille Clifton. This collection brings together some of Clifton's most powerful and celebrated poetry, showcasing her sharp, moving and deeply insightful voice. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, April 30, and you can tune in Wednesday, April 2 to find out who our guest will be. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com thestack stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at tracythomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax, Pod, on Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and check out our website at the stackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.