Ep. 365 The Poets that Make Me Understand Myself with Tiana Clark

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks — Ep. 365 "The Poets that Make Me Understand Myself with Tiana Clark"

Introduction

In Episode 365 of The Stacks, host Tracy Thomas welcomes poet and essayist Tiana Clark to discuss her latest poetry collection, Scorched Earth. The conversation delves deep into the intricacies of personal poetry, the influence of form and structure, teaching philosophies, and the profound connections poetry fosters between writers and readers.

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1. Tiana Clark’s Journey into Poetry

Tiana Clark shares her early experiences and how a pivotal high school poetry teacher, Mr. Bill Brown, ignited her passion for poetry. Born in Los Angeles in 1984 and later moving to Nashville, Tennessee, Tiana recounts the challenges of navigating her identity in diverse environments. Her teacher’s belief in her talent transformed her rebellious teenage years into a dedicated poetic pursuit.

[05:04] Tiana Clark: "He utterly changed my life. I was a little bit of a rebellious teenager... he was just the first teacher that took the time, space, and permission to invest in me, to believe in me."

2. The Concept of “Heart Lines”

Tiana introduces the idea of “heart lines” in poetry, inspired by Kim Adenisio and Dorian Lux. These are the lines within a poem that resonate deeply with readers, akin to Roland Barthes’ concept of the "punctum" in photography—a detail that pierces or bruises the viewer.

[01:04] Tiana Clark: "One of my first things I do in class is I always talk about heart lines... why did that line resonate with you?"

3. The Lyric Eye: A Poetic Perspective

The discussion transitions to the "lyric eye," Tiana’s term for the poetic perspective that blends real and imagined experiences. She emphasizes that the persona in her poems is a fictional yet authentic version of herself, allowing for creative expression without complete autobiographical constraint.

[18:16] Tracy Thomas: "I think that's so beautiful... it's not Tiana. It's like fictional but real. It's like autofiction Tiana."

4. Poetry and Audience Engagement

Tiana explores the dynamic between poet and audience, comparing it to breaking the fourth wall in theater. She believes effective poetry acknowledges the reader’s presence, transforming passive consumption into an active, engaging experience.

[31:08] Tiana Clark: "You are now part of the play. You are now part of it. You now have to be confronted with what's happening."

5. Favorite Poets and Resonant Works

Tiana discusses her admiration for poets like Terrance Hayes, Ross Gay, Ada Limone, and June Jordan. She highlights how their work aligns with her desire for connection and authenticity in poetry, valuing clarity and emotional depth over perceived obscurity.

[20:57] Tiana Clark: "I love discussing why certain lines resonate... Terence Hayes... poetry as a means of survival."

6. Embracing and Breaking Forms

Tiana reflects on her initial apprehension towards traditional poetic forms during graduate school and how embracing and deconstructing these forms has enriched her writing. Her approach involves both adhering to and innovating upon established structures to create a unique poetic voice.

[34:46] Tiana Clark: "I was really interested in breaking all the poetry rules that I know. So you're seeing a lot of this play, a lot of this dexterity..."

7. Teaching Philosophy Influenced by Mentorship

Influenced by her late teacher’s patience and understanding—stemming from his own experiences with dyslexia—Tiana emphasizes the importance of curiosity and grace in teaching. She advocates for nurturing students’ individual voices without frustration, especially in the post-pandemic educational landscape.

[09:04] Tiana Clark: "I have that pause now of, like, not frustration, but of, like, curiosity."

8. Ask the Stacks: Book Recommendations

In the "Ask the Stacks" segment, Tiana recommends several non-fiction titles for listeners seeking gripping reads similar to Charlie Hustle:

• "All the President’s Men" by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward: An exploration of the Watergate scandal.
• "Careless People" by Sarah Wynn Williams: A Facebook exposé detailing internal company dynamics.
• "A Better Ending" by James Whitfield Thompson: An investigative memoir delving into personal and familial mysteries.

Additionally, Tiana suggests The Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado for its innovative structure and emotional depth.

[43:43] Tiana Clark: "Carmen Maria Machado's The Dream House... investigating the end, the beginning, middle, and end of this relationship..."

9. Personal Reading Habits and Favorite Books

Tiana describes herself as a "magpie," constantly flitting between various projects and genres. Her favorite books include:

• "Sula" and "The Bluest Eye" by Toni Morrison: She connects deeply with the themes of family relationships and identity.
• "The Secret Lives of Church Ladies" by Deesha Philyaw: A short story collection that beautifully encapsulates the complexities of black life beyond pain and suffering.

Conversely, she expresses difficulty with lengthy works like Moby Dick and Infinite, aligning with her preference for immersive but manageable reads.

[45:05] Tiana Clark: "I love Sula by Toni Morrison... one book I hate is Moby Dick."

10. Favorite Bookstores and Emotional Connections

Tiana highlights Books Are Magic in Brooklyn and Possible Futures in New Haven, Connecticut, as her favorite bookstores. She appreciates environments that feel inviting and vibrant, fostering a sense of community and joy.

[59:55] Tiana Clark: "Possible Futures in New Haven... feels like you're inside someone's really cool house and they've invited you into the living room."

11. Final Thoughts and Upcoming Book Club

Tracy Thomas wraps up the episode by reiterating the April book club pick, Blessing the Boats New and Selected Poems 1988-2000 by Lucille Clifton, inviting listeners to join the discussion on April 30th. Tiana encourages listeners to explore her collection, Scorched Earth, available in both print and audiobook formats.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tiana Clark on Heart Lines:

  "[01:04] Tiana Clark: One of my first things I do in class is I always talk about heart lines..."

• Tiana on Her Teacher’s Influence:

  "[05:04] Tiana Clark: He utterly changed my life..."

• Tracy on Poetry and Audience:

  "[31:08] Tiana Clark: You are now part of the play..."

• Tiana on Breaking Poetry Forms:

  "[34:46] Tiana Clark: I was really interested in breaking all the poetry rules that I know..."

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Conclusion

Episode 365 of The Stacks offers a profound exploration of personal poetry, the balance between authenticity and audience engagement, and the transformative power of mentorship in creative pursuits. Tiana Clark’s insights provide valuable perspectives for both seasoned poets and those new to the art form, emphasizing the importance of connection, emotion, and breaking conventional boundaries to foster genuine literary expression.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hey, listeners. I'm here to tell you about an exciting event that's happening on Sunday, May 4. It is called Stack the Shelves and it is a special pop up bookshop that the Stacks is hosting dedicated to supporting individuals and families impacted by the recent Los Angeles wildfires. We're going to have books, author signings, a kid's corner, food, music, lawn games, special guests, and more. And so now here's the part where I turn to you, the amazing Stacks community, and ask you for help. In order to make this day a safe, smashing success. We need volunteers local to Los Angeles. We need your donations, which will be tax deductible thanks to our partners at LA Room and Board, a fantastic nonprofit. 100 of your donations will go directly to families, including gift cards to Octavia's Bookshelf so they can continue to build their libraries. And we need your help spreading the word. Head to the snackspodcast.com shelves to get all the details. Again, that is the stacks podcast.com shelves.

[Tiana Clark]

One of my first things I do in class is I always talk about heart lines. And I say, what are those lines that resonate with you? You are struck in some way and it could be different for everyone. Which is why I love poetry, because we could read the same poem and you and I could have very different heart lines. So what I love is discussing that's like, why did that line resonate with you? Why did that line resonate with me? We go to literature to feel less alone in the world. We all have our genres that do that. And so I think poetry are those ways that, like, they make me feel, feel less alone in the world. And so those are the poet. The poets that make me feel like I have a sense of belonging in the pain, you know, those are the poets that make me understand myself.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome to the podcast Tiana Clark. Tiana is a poet and essayist whose work delves into race, faith and personal history. She is the author of the brand new poetry collection Scorched Earth. And today she and I talk about writing poems that are extremely personal. The ways that the lyric eye manifests itself on the page, and the kinds of poems that really speak to Tiana. In case you missed the announcement, our book club pick for April is Blessing the Boats New and Selected Poems 1988-2000 by Lucille Clifton. Tiana will be back on Wednesday, April 30, to discuss this book with me. So be sure to read along and then tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, there are two incredible ways to support the work that I do here. One is by joining the stacks [e-mail] the stacks. And the other is to subscribe to my newsletter, Tracy Thomas, substack.com both of these places give you extremely cool perks, and they help me make this podcast possible. Okay, now it is time for my conversation for National Poetry Month with the one and only Tiana Clark. All right, everybody, it's Poetry Month. You know, we had to bring a poet out, and I gotta tell you, this poetry collection, it's called Scorched Earth. And our guest, her name is Tiana Clark. But I'm gonna give you a preamble before I introduce. This book just showed up on my doorstep. An editor at Washington Square Press, which is where the book was published, just sent it to me with a really nice note and said, tracy, I really like what you do. I think you'd like this book. Not two weeks later, I get a message from friend of the show, Jose Olivares, who's like, do you know what you're gonna do for Poetry Month yet? I don't know. He said, you thought about Tiana Clark? I said, I'm not sure who that is. And he said, the book is called Scorched Earth. And I said, oh, my God. That just showed up to my house with a note. So I was like, well, that is a. Jose is my poetry guy. So I am bringing to the show. And then I found out that this guest is also a friend of Saeed Jones, another one of our poetry faves. And so I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast, Tiana Clark. Welcome to the Stacks.

[Tiana Clark]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm such a big fan of you. This podcast of Saeed, of Jose. That's so sweet. I love how just like all these kismic connections colliding together.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. All the poet, The. The poets know, and you will know now, too, for future poets you want to recommend to the show. I know very little about poetry, so a recommendation from a poet that I like is basically like an automatic booking. So if you ever want to pressure me to put your friends on the show, you just have to say, I like this person. But of course, they were right. The collection is fantastic. I loved it so much, though, you know, I only know so little about poetry, but it spoke to me, and that's what I've been told by all the poets, is the only thing that matters. If I. If I like it, it was great. And if I don't like it, it's the worst poetry collection ever. So this is a great one. Thank you. Will you just tell folks a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you come from, maybe how you got into poet poetry.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. So I was born in Los Angeles in 1984. I think that was the year of the Los Angeles Summer Olympics.

[Tracy Thomas]

And are you a summer baby?

[Tiana Clark]

No. I don't know why I just said that I was a February baby. I want to be a summer baby because it's always so cold on my birthday. But I moved to Los Angeles in 1991. My mom actually worked for a Christian record company.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wait, you moved to.

[Tiana Clark]

I moved to Nashville, and I remember my mom being like, do you want to move to Nashville? And I was like, where is Nashville? And it was so wild. And I think this also shapes my experience as a writer, because, as you know, being in Los Angeles, it's such a diverse community. Everyone in my kindergarten classroom was from all over the world. And then I moved from there to Nashville, Tennessee, in 1991, where I was, like, one in four, like, black students. And it was the first time in my life that I got asked, what are you? And I was so confused because no one had ever asked me.

[Tracy Thomas]

What did you say?

[Tiana Clark]

What's funny is, I went home, and I go, mom, what am I? I was like, people are asking me. And she was like, just say you're beautiful. And so I would go back to school and say I'm beautiful. And they'd be like, you're a freak. Especially the first time I got.

[Tracy Thomas]

I have a similar story.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, really?

[Tracy Thomas]

When I was. I was at a pool in Lake Tahoe, and these older girls were like, what's your heritage? And I was like. I was like, oh, I just got it done last week because I thought they were asking me about my hair. Oh, my God, that's so good.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a good one.

[Tiana Clark]

I feel like they should take all the mixed people in the world, and we should, like. Like, have, like. It should be a poem of, like, all the questions and answers, like, especially.

[Tracy Thomas]

When you're a kid. Yeah, because, like, as an adult, I have answers now that are sort of like, mind your own fucking business. But as a kid, I legitimately thought these girls were telling me that my hair was beautiful. I was like, thank you.

[Tiana Clark]

I like your interpretation. I like that. Yeah. And then I lived in Nashville for most of my life, and then I had a fellowship year at uw Madison, Wisconsin, and then I lived in Southern Illinois for my first teaching job. And now I'm in Boston and I'm a writer in residence at Smith College. So she's been all over.

[Tracy Thomas]

And how did you come to poetry at?

[Tiana Clark]

An incredible poetry teacher in high school. His name was Mr. Bill Brown. He actually just passed away last year, so it's Tinder for me.

[Tracy Thomas]

But he saw what you wrote to him in the. In the acknowledgments.

[Tiana Clark]

Very sweet. Yeah. He utterly changed my life. I was a little bit of a rebellious teenager, a little bit Daria esque, lots of emotions. And he was just the first teacher that took the time, space, and permission to invest in me, to believe in me, to tell me that I was good at something. And I think when you're that young and someone tells you you're good at something, that feels really powerful. Also, as you know, you have all these hormones surging through your body. And it was so amazing to concretize those emotions into language. And I was good at English, but all my English teachers would be like, tiana, why can't you just do the five paragraph essay? And I'm like, I hate this form. I wanted to create my own form. And so when Bill Brown was reading Sharon Olds and Leon Lee to me and Rita Dob, I was like, whoa, what. What is this powerful magic? And he was showing me, like, how my brain worked because I. I went to a magnet school and I. And all of these kids were like, I knew. They knew they wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer. I didn't know what I wanted to be. But when he introduced poetry to me, I was like, oh, wait, this is, this is how my brain works. Because until. Until you have that moment, you feel. You feel like something's wrong with you because you haven't figured out how you. How you see and interpret the world.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. That's so interesting. Do you feel like that has shaped how you are as a teacher or when you work with students?

[Tiana Clark]

Absolutely. I actually found out later because we stayed friends my whole entire life until he recently passed away. But he had dyslexia, and it was actually a teacher that he had in graduate school that pulled him aside and spent extra time with him. And so he made sure to. To be more patient and take that extra time with his students. And it's changed my pedagogy and that I think there's an instinct sometimes as an early teacher to get kind of frustrated when students aren't paying attention or aren't listening to you, or disruptive. But because of him, I have that pause now of, like, not frustration, but of, like, curiosity.

[Tracy Thomas]

Hmm.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay, let me. Let me ask some questions. Let me get to know that student a little bit more. Let me have some grace here. And that. That softness and that tenderness has yielded such beautiful results versus that kind of instinct to want to, like, you know, punish or like, be harsh with students, which is especially after the pandemic. Like, students need so much grace now more than ever.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is very comforting to me as a person who is going to have to talk publicly with you about poetry. I'm hoping that you'll be very patient with me, of course. But I have my thoughts and questions because everyone who listens to the show knows that this is my most scary episode. These are my most scary episodes every year because I just. I. I'm like. So I feel like panic about discussing poetry, even though everyone who ever comes on is like, there's no right answer.

[Tiana Clark]

That.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's. I am the 5 paragraph essay person. Oh, really? My brain. Oh, baby. Yes. I love a structure. I'm like, oh, there's a rule. We can follow it. I can recreate this every single time. Which is why I think poetry is, like, scary for me, but also, like, kind of like sexy, but, like, scared. Like dangerous, maybe is a good way to put it. But this isn't about me. This is about you. So. So this collection kind of is about your divorce, but also about a lot of other parts of your life. There's a lot of, like, your relationship with God and sort of like the rules of religion and how maybe as you move forward, it sort of changes about future love or love that's come in since the divorce. It's very personal, I think it's fair to say. What is it like to write publicly about such personal things? And how do you protect yourself from that as you're out on a book tour, as you're out in the world, as you're talking to your students, who I imagine at least know you've written this book?

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah, it's such a great question. I think when I was younger, I miss. I. I think I had this false idea that if I blood let my life, like in an open mic night, that was connection. And it actually took me a long time to actually protect myself. And it's something that I teach my students. I always tell Them, we always say it's the speaker and not the person to have a little bit of protection in the classroom, even though we all know, wink, wink, we're writing about ourselves.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Tiana Clark]

But I think I have. As I've gotten older, I'm learning how to care for myself for the exact reasons that you're saying. Because even though I do reveal a lot that's very close to experiences in my life, I think one thing that poetry has taught me is that the lyric eye is a collage of real and imagined experiences, and it creates a little bit of that psychic distance, although people just assume that it's 100% based off my life, and a majority of it is. But I think I have more confidence in myself now to not feel like I have to answer every question that's asked of me. I think when I was younger, I just. I felt I was such a people pleaser, so I was an oversharer, naturally. So I would just, like, reveal so much, and then I would look back and I think Brene Brown calls it that vulnerability hangover the next day and be like, why did I just say all of that? Like, I didn't need to give all that extra information. And one of the most powerful experiences I had. The poet Carl Phillips came to Vanderbilt during my graduate school experience, and someone asked him this really long, convoluted question. You know those people that do this, like, common answer questions.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. It wasn't even, like, my enemies.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. And I just. Carl Phillips did this amazing thing where he just looked at the student, was like, sure, yeah. Next question. And I was like, what? We're allowed to do that? Like, that's on the table. Like, we don't have to, like, cater or pander to people. And I think one thing for me that I tell people, like, my poems are braver than I am. My poems are, you know. And so, like, sometimes when I read, I want to step into that boldness. But during the Q and A, there's a poem in the book called after the Reading where I kind of have all those collected experiences of all the wild things people have said to me. And it's mostly has to do with race, which makes me feel uncomfortable or asking me really personal questions. And now I've learned to pivot or to be like, oh, that's so sweet of you, but, like, I don't feel comfortable asking that. Or, you know. But students ask me to read certain poems, and especially the more sensitive poems, I just don't read those in public because I don't I'm trying to protect that energy for myself.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I have like three different follow ups to this. One is. Do you ever read after the reading at readings? Yes.

[Tiana Clark]

I love actually reading it because it's so great.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's a good one.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. It creates this fun dynamic where when I read it now, I'm like, are you going to be added to the list? Don't be one of these people you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Want to be in part two.

[Tiana Clark]

What it's funny now is people are like, kind of hesitant now because they're like, oh, oh. But I actually love it. I'm like, you should have this.

[Tracy Thomas]

You should pause. You should pause before you fucking open your mouth. Okay. Question number two is about in your acknowledgments, because I love an acknowledgment. In your acknowledgment, you thank your therapist and you say that your therapist reminds you that you are more important than your work. And I'm just. I feel like that's maybe kind of in conversation with what we're talking about right now.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Can you talk a little bit about what that struggle for you has been like? Because I think it's common for a lot of creative people.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. Well, one, I didn't like it when she said that to me, so I was like, sure, sure. You know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, well, you know, therapists always be saying too much like, okay, we get it. You have a therapy degree or whatever. You did so many hours. Okay, could you. The truth is a little. It's a little direct.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah, she. This is my old therapist, Brenda. Shout out to Brenda. She really helped me in a time of crisis, actually, during my first book tour where I was so overwhelmed and so burnt out and I didn't know how to negotiate boundaries or how to. Or how to separate my identity from the. From the production of. Of the marketplace and creativity. It was all mixed up and all complicated. And she helped me through that. And I think she was. That was a constant reminder because I think I did over identify with my work. And she was always wanting to separate that identity. And that was really hard to make that distinction. I think the pandemic was a time for all of us where it was kind of this, like, global pause in a time of trauma, but where all of us were like, wait a second, if we're all stopping, the marketplace has slowed down, then who are we? Actually, if we're not publishing or, you know, putting out another podcast or this whole thing of capitalizing on momentum is actually something I'm trying to work Against. Even though I understand why we all have that right. Like, that's what capitalism teaches us or the attention economy teaches us. That's what Instagram is making us feel constantly that we're not good enough, that we have to put out there. Oh, look at that person doing that. Look at that. Oh, they just put another book. What? How did. When do they do that? Yeah, it makes you feel like you're not good enough. And I think my therapist was always trying to remind me that who I am at my core is not about what I produce or put out in the world, but I have to like that person and I have to take care of that person. And she's always asking me, like, Tiana, how can you lower the bar? How can you lower the bar? For example, I got.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. Wonderful scholarship to travel the world for a year. It's called the Amy Lowell Traveling Poetry Scholarship. And the only rule is I couldn't return back to North America for one year. It's like, great. But when I. I started actually in Berlin and I got a whole horrible case of COVID and I had all these ambitions to, like, write all these things and publish all these things and do all these things, but I was down bad for six weeks and we had a session and she was like, what if you, instead of writing, you just convalesced? What if you just rested? What if you actually just did nothing? And I was like, brenda, I don't know what you're talking about. Because I didn't know who I like because it's. I think I over identified with that gerbil in the hamster wheel energy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Tiana Clark]

You know, I've been. I've been Team Hermione from day one. You know what I mean? And when she.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know what that means.

[Tiana Clark]

Hermione. Like that kind of like raising your hand energy, like always having the answers.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you know, see, I've never. I never. I never did those books.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, yeah, I didn't. Well, I didn't read them. But just like from the movies of just like that kind of.

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't see the movies. I've never engaged with any of that. I never did. And then, you know, the author's a horrible transphobic woman. And so then I was like, well, I don't have to.

[Tiana Clark]

There you go.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I don't know anything about them.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know. But I'm assuming type A nerd, nerd, overachiever. So I relate.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just don't know the Reference.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. Of rest and recuperation. And now I'm working actually on a memoir about black burnout and actually wrote an essay about black burnout. And really, really digging deep into what does it actually mean to rest and what does it actually mean to take care of yourself, especially, you know, for. For black people is something that I'm exploring.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I bet your therapist doesn't like that you're making it into work, though.

[Tiana Clark]

I know, right? I'm like, wait, how can I take these tidbits?

[Tracy Thomas]

Actually, I'm like, wait a second. This sounds like a great idea. But also, Brenda's not gonna like this. Or. Formerly Brenda.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah, she actually told me. She was like. She's like, tiana, you always take notes during her sessions. I was like, yeah, this is great for my book. She's like, can you stop?

[Tracy Thomas]

You take notes during your therapy session?

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. You don't?

[Tracy Thomas]

No.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm okay. Now I'm doing therapy.

[Tiana Clark]

Wrong.

[Tracy Thomas]

Thank you.

[Tiana Clark]

She was making me stop because she was like, stop turning this into your work. And also she was like, tiana, not everything is theory. You know, she's like, we're in a conversation. So I think it actually was a bad habit that I was doing that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Yeah. Okay, here's my third question. And this is about poetry. So it's a real hard shift. When you first started answering my question, before you said something about the lyric I. What is that?

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, yeah, that's great. Like, so I. I think the eye. Like, when you. When people think about poetry, I think people, again, think it's totally autobiographical. So when I say the lyric eye, I guess I'm saying that the eye that's in my poems is more of a poetic eye. It's a lyrical eye.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was thinking eye. Oh, Like. Like looking at it lyrically. You're saying the lyric letter I.

[Tiana Clark]

But you know what? I love both.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, myself, I love both.

[Tiana Clark]

I kind of love thinking about a lyrical. I kind of like, in that way. I think that's beautiful.

[Tracy Thomas]

I see the eye. First person is a version of you that is also a version of fantasy that is also a version of a past you, like, it is not. It's not Tiana. It's like fictional but real. It's like autofiction Tiana.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. Oh, that's a great way to put it. One of my favorite poets, Toy Derricott, she has this great excerpt from one of her poems, speculations of the Eye. And there's the line goes, I am not the eye in my poems. I. Eyes the net I pull me in with. And I just love that idea of eyes and like this. Like this net that gathers all the versions of me, right? Real or imagines. And like, that's what I get. That is. That is my perspective and my pov, and that is the place that I write from. And I just. That has really helped me kind of understand it a little bit more.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that. I want to know what makes someone one of your favorite poets? What is. What in a poem do you love? Because, like I said, I'm learning a lot about poetry. I was just actually talking with Nate and Nate Marshall and Jose, who are my. My poetry professors. They do private text message poetry therapy with me. And I was asking them, I was like, you know, what makes a poem good? Because I was saying, you know, I read a lot of nonfiction. I can tell you if a nonfiction book is quality. Without having liked the thing. I can be like, I did not enjoy this, but I recognize what the author is trying to do, what they did, why it works. But with the poem, I was like, I literally can't do that. I can only tell you if it resonated with me or not. I can maybe tell you, you know, if it rhymed. I can maybe tell you if it's in verse. But none of those things to me equal like a successful air quotes poem. And then Nate, after like 20 voice memos, was finally like, well, I think maybe you just like a narrative poem. And I was like, oh, I didn't even know that there were different kinds of poems like that. So I'm wondering for you if you can articulate what kinds of poems you're drawn to, what your quote unquote taste in poetry is.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, what a great question. One of my first things I do in class is I always talk about heart lines. And I got this idea from Kim Adenisio, which. And Dorian Lux, where they talk about every poem as a heart line. And it's exactly what you're talking about. And I say, what are those lines that resonate with you? You are struck in some way. And then I connect that to this theory from Roland Barth about the punctum and photography where he talks about there's. There's always something in a photograph when you're looking at it. What is that? The punctum comes from that. That pierces you, he said, where it bruises you. And it could be different for everyone. Which is why I love poetry, because we could read the same poem and you and I could have very different heart lines. So what I love is discussing that, like, why did that line resonate with you? Why did that line resonate with me? So I think the poems that I love are bursting with heart. Lines are things that have, like, connect with me in a deep way, have explained a situation, a conflict that. Something that I've been struggling with. And they gave it language, and that feels really, really powerful of, like, wait, they were able to explain this, like, amorphous thing that I haven't been able to name, and they just gave it back to me, and it feels like a gift. And so I think those are the poems and poets that I love. Like, a poet that I love is Terence Hayes. One of my favorite poems is Lighthead's Guide to the Galaxy. And so there's a line in there where he says, I'd rather have what my daddy calls scrimp. He says discreet and means the street just out of sight. Not what you see, but what you perceive. That's poetry. Not the noise, but it's rhythms. I'll eat you to live. That's poetry. And that last line, poetry, as in, for me, it means, like, poetry as a means of survival, because that's what it means, like, to me, like, I don't know if poetry can save anyone, but it has absolutely saved my life. And so, like, I just love this thing also where Terrence is, like, saying, I want to have up my daddy's language. I want to have that. That dialect of scrimp. Like, I'm not going to take, you know, this, like, traditional Western canon. And he's kind of repositioning of what poetry means for him. And so I think for me, like, we go to literature to feel less alone in the world. We all have our genres that do that. And so I think poetry are those ways that, like, they make me feel less alone in the world. And so those are the poet. The poets that make me feel like I have a sense of belonging and the pain, you know, Those are the poets that make me understand myself. Those are. Those are the poems and poets that I'm drawn to. I mean, I can get into specifics, but that's just one. With Terrence Hayes. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you memorize all these poems? Is that. Are you, like, a memorizer?

[Tiana Clark]

I'm actually not. I think it's just because I'm a teacher, professor. Just year after year, you know, it just like. It's almost like catechisms or something. I don't know. It just kind of comes out of me. I don't actually I've ever, like, committed it to memory. I remember when I was in grad school, one of my professors, Mark Darman, would do that all the time. And I was like, how does he do that? And then it weirdly started happening to me, like year seven or eight of teaching. And I was like, oh, God, the transformation is complete.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm really a poetry professor now. Like, as a girl, you have to wear the robe and like the hat at graduation every day to class. I love it.

[Tiana Clark]

I also think another key factor, poets like Ross Gay, Ada Limon, these poets, poets that they're insanely brilliant, insanely smart, but kind of what you're saying. I think a lot of people have hang ups about poetry because they feel it's opaque or it's trying to be mysterious and they feel like it's not for them. Those are not necessarily the poems that I am drawn to. Like, I want to connect with you. I want you to understand where I'm coming from. It's so interesting with my students because they love to be opaque. They love to be mysterious. And I'm like, guys. But then I asked them, what does this line mean? And they give me a whole novel and I'm like, where's that in the poem, y'all?

[Tracy Thomas]

Do they like opaque poets, your students? Like, if you ask them who's my favorite poet or who's your favorite poet, are they giving you opaque kinds of people or are they giving you colloquial, conversational poets?

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah, that's a very interesting question. It's kind of a mixture of both. But I would say it definitely leans more to poets that are. This is a complicated term, like accessible, you know, like, it's so funny. They're drawn to poets where they do feel a deep connection because there was something particular about that poet that is speaking to them. And that that thing that is connected is something that's translated very easily in the work. So that's why I think it's so funny. But also I think there's just something with younger generation I've noticed. I'm like, why do you want to be so mysterious? I heard Bobby Francis say this. Another poet that I adore. What does it mean to risk clarity? I always tell my students, risk clarity. Why are you so afraid to be clear? Why are you so afraid to just. I would call it say the damn thing. I'm like, just say the damn thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, I think that's like, what's really nice about your collection is like, there was no point in your collection where I Was like, I don't know what she's talking about. Right. Like, I. Again, I can't say whether something is good or not in poetry. Like, I just don't think I've read enough poems to even have, like, a depth of knowledge to really know anything. But what I can say is, like, I certainly got it. Like, I certainly. For the most part, I mean, there's definitely things that I didn't get. Like, there's layers. I know that you're working with that. I was like, no clue what that means. But overall, it. It's. You can read the poem and be like, this is what Tiana is talking about. And I feel like, you know, I. I know that accessible is sort of like, a interesting word for poets because it maybe feels like pejorative, because there is this sense that poets should be opaque like, that. That poetry should be hard or like. And that's so funny to me because I feel like everywhere else, accessible is, like, the highest compliment. It's like, oh, that's. So this is readable. You know, we're like, this is accessible. You can come to this event. More people are welcome. There will be a ramp for you in your chair. There will be, you know, someone doing sign language. Like, it means more people get to be part of the thing. And the idea that that is bad in poetry or not bad, but just, like, maybe looked down on, I think that's maybe fair for some people, or that it's an insult is really. Is, like, definitely worth thinking about.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. Honestly, I totally agree with you. It does have a pejorative meaning, and I wish there would be a more expansive way to talk about it. Another poet that I love, June Jordan, she has this poem. Like, my poems are hands, like, reaching for you in the dark. And I love that. It's like, I want my. I want to be held. I want. I want my poems to feel like.

[Tracy Thomas]

I want to be held by poems. I want to tingle.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah, I want. And, like, I love that you said that you got it. Like, I want people to get it. Because it's so funny, because when I talk to my students and they tell me all these things, that they are their intentions from the poem, and I will tell them I got none of that. And I would love to know that. And I was like, how can you put that? And I think the work is. How can you layer and do those things in a way that it's, like, striking and interesting? But I totally agree with you. I think I want all the community in my work, you know, I want to do the work, obviously I want the poem to be a piece of art. But like, I, I, my goal is absolute connection with my reader. I want my reader to feel like they, I'm with them there with me. You know, I tell my students, it's almost like museum curation. You get to decide the distance for your. Is this a piece of art you want them to touch? Do you want a ten foot whole? Like, you get to decide the psychic distance in each of your work. And I would say, I love that you said that because when people talk about voice in literature, I think it's so funny people talk about voice. For me, it's how can you display you, who you are, your guts on the page. And so when you said like you felt like you were with me, it's like just as much as we got dinner, you would get that same energy. Like all my, like, I am a gesticulator. I'm going to like, tell you about my life. You will know very quickly. And I talk about all the things that you shouldn't talk about. Dinner, we're going to talk about God, sex, money. Like we're gonna talk about all of it. Because that's just who I am. So it's naturally gonna spill over into my work. And what I try to get to do with my students is do not think about your audience and what you think they want or need. Like, how can you be authentic to who you are and how can you spill it on the page? I always tell them, like, think about dancing. I was like, you know those moments when you're dancing, people are watching me and you're kind of like restricted, but like, there's moments when you're actually free and it's kind of awkward and you maybe look kind of silly. But I was like, people are drawn to someone who's being authentic. And like, think about your friends and you fall in love with them or a lover. Like, it's those idiosyncratic moments and you're like, that person just did something weird. But I love it. Like my best friend Siana, I did something weird in front of her one time and she goes, I'm obsessed with you. And I felt so loved and seen that she saw something in me and she was in it. Like it drew her to me, not away from me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Tiana Clark]

And that's what you want from your readers, I would assume.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay. But so I have to ask you about audience, because audience is my personal obsession. How do you think about audience and when do you think about audience? Because at some point, you have to. Because you're writing these poems to be read. You're putting. Is it when you're writing them? Is it when you're putting the collection together? At what point does someone else enter the picture for you as a writer?

[Tiana Clark]

What's in this? First initial drafts. I ain't thinking about anybody, because if I did, wouldn't get anything done. It's messy. It's wild. At some point in my revision process, I do start reading my work out loud, where I start to hear the stickiness, and I'm just trying to get the language down. Probably when I'm thinking about submissions, I am thinking about. It's probably when I'm submitting the poem, I'm thinking about, okay, do I want this out in the world? What does this mean, to have this out in the world? I think the truth is, like, I really don't think about it along the way, which is why probably if I did, I would probably pause because, like, for example, I have a poem here. Like, I masturbate and pray to God. My mom hasn't gotten the book yet, but she has asked me about that poem, and I just, like, pretend I didn't hear her. And I'm like, I will just never talk about that poem with her. But, like, you would think that I'd have a pause on that. I may not read that during a reading. I think that's when I think about audience. But I just feel accountable to the feeling, and I want to capture that feeling. And it's more important for me to be married to the authenticity of nailing that feeling down than it is about my relationship to how that will be perceived in the world. And I think that is maybe what's. I honestly, I think I almost have, like, a naive block because I. If I thought about it too much, I probably wouldn't publish anything. I probably should think about it, but I don't.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, we don't do shit around here. Yeah, I just so. I mean, every. You know, everyone's so different. But I just. I'm upset. I'm obsessed with audience. I think about audience a lot, and I think about. And I. And I do think, even if you maybe don't know it, I think you are thinking about audience because, like, the lyric eye. Some of your poems are, like, sort of hostile to your reader, or some poems are, like, more welcoming. So, like, you're definitely thinking. Thinking about what you're doing to the reader or, like, to the person you're talking to. I mean, at least I sensed that in the book.

[Tiana Clark]

I should tell you what you're doing. That's fair. Because I am interested in breaking the fourth wall. Because I do like. I do, like. Like that moment in Fleabag, you know, when she's looking at the audience. I do like playing with that manipulation of. Oh, you. Oh. Like, I love.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know, Fleabag.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, okay. I'm trying, like, Ferris Bueller, say off.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure. I mean, I know breaking the fourth wall.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was a theater major. That's. I know everything about breaking the fourth wall.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay, so you know that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, So I get it.

[Tiana Clark]

But idea of, like, breaking that convention, like, you know, the play world. And, like, I always ask my students, I looked at this. Since you grew up in theater, what do you think that effect does to the audience?

[Tracy Thomas]

I think it's one of the strongest things. If you do it well, I think it's unreal. I mean, think of Iago and Othello by. Are you kidding me? Like, when he turns to the audience and he's like, did you see that? Did you see what I just did? You're literally like, this man. Like that. Because. Because, again, a person obsessed with audience. I think when art can effectively acknowledge that you are there, the audience is there, it is unsettling and also sort of an invitation at the same time, and I think that's really cool. And I think, you know, I have done live shows for this podcast a lot, and if you've ever seen them, one of my favorite things to do is when someone's talking is to look out of the audience and be like, get a load of this guy. Right? Or like, isn't that hilarious? Like, do you hear what they' Because I do feel like when we consume art, it's sort of nice to be reminded of the thing that we're doing together, whether we're actually doing it together or whether we're doing it separately. When. When Iago acknowledges the audience, whether you're reading it on the page or you're watching it in the theater, everyone who is consuming Othello is having a moment of, oh, this guy's talking to me now, or whatever, and I think that's really cool. I think sometimes it can be overdone. I think sometimes it's not done well, but. But when it's done well, I almost always like it. I almost always like it.

[Tiana Clark]

That's. That is so fun. I love that you said it's unsettling, but it's also an invitation. I see that dullness because I think it turns you from a passive spectator to an active one. You are now part of the play. You are now part of it. You now have to be confronted with what's happening. You are now just not. You're not. You're not. You're not a dreamer. You're not sleeping, you know, And I think. I love that. I love to play with that. And I think you're right. If you overdo it, you can, you know, tip it too much. Um, yeah, But I think there is a poem in here, you're right, where I do say, like, father, daughter, reader, lover. I don't have to tell you everything. And to be honest with you, I think that is an extension from after the reading of. It's more of me of having to be accountable to some of the things that people have asked me to, where I was being a little sassy and being like, you know what? You're right. I think there was a moment where I was. I was like, you know what? I don't have to. I don't have to do this. So I do think there are moments, especially in that breaking in the fourth wall, where audience absolutely comes in for sure. But I think there's a way it was a kind of, like, contentious thing for me in that moment in that particular poem.

[Tracy Thomas]

We love Contention. I want to ask you one more thing about the collection, and then we have to move on to books and other people's books. But one of the things that I felt that you were doing in the book, but I. I can't. I don't have the words to articulate it. So you're gonna have to help me out here, as I feel like you seem deeply interested in writing conventions, styles, forms. I mean, you have a poem about epigraphs, you reference, like, the guzzle a few times. You are, like, referencing literary style, form, technique a lot throughout the collection. Can you talk about that?

[Tiana Clark]

Yes. So going back to Bill Brown, he grew up in, like, that beatnik Frank O'Hara, those kind of poets where it's very free verse style, very, very flowing, which is similar to my style. And when I went to graduate school, that's when I started being introduced to all these forms, like the sonnet and sistina. And honest, to be honest, I was afraid I had a lot of trepidation and a lot of imposter syndrome in graduate school until I asked my professor about imposter syndrome, and he's like, oh, you're gonna have it for the rest of your life. And then I was like, great, okay. Fine. But I was like, tiana, why are you afraid of these forms? I honestly felt in graduate school that if I wrote it like a traditional sonnet and iamic contaminant, I couldn't do it then. That didn't mean I was like a real poet. But then when I started working with the forms and addressing my fears, I was like, wait a second. I see you form. I see what you're doing. And then when I started making and breaking forms, that felt really exciting to me where I had to have them make sense to me. Going back to the five paragraph essay, I was against the form. But then when I got inside the form, dismantled it, figured out its guts, and made my own recipe, that felt exciting. Now I look at form in an expansive way of like, how can I break it and remake it and make it my own? And so I think with this book, I was really interested in breaking all the poetry rules that I know. So you're seeing a lot of this play, a lot of this, like, dexterity, because again, I'm trying to figure out how to make form work for me in my own language. And so, like, playing around with it was something that I wanted to bring back to myself, not only as a sense of joy, but honestly to go back to like a childlike sense of what the heck did I. Did I get involved with poetry to begin with? You know?

[Tracy Thomas]

So, okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back. Hey, friends, it's me, Tracy. And if you love what you hear on today's episode of the Stacks, or any episode of the Stacks, and you want to dive deeper into the world of books with me, I've got two great ways for you to do that. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. Patreon is where the Stacks community really shines. We've got a Discord monthly book club meetups and our year long mega reading challenge to help you push your reading goals. If you want to be part of this incredible community, and I cannot overstate that, head to patreon.com the stacks. Now over on my substack, I'm sharing my thoughts twice a week, from what I'm reading to what's happening in the book world in pop culture and sports, and on Substack, you're going to find my mini reviews, rankings, reading goals, and plenty of opinions. Whether you want to subscribe for free or unlock even more with a paid subscription, you can do that by going to tracy thomas.substack.com and if you join Patreon or Substack you are going to get a monthly bonus episode. If you want to support this black woman, run independent podcast and treat yourself to some extra bookish bonus content, go to patreon.com thestacks or Tracy thomas.substack.com to join. I would love to have you Starting a business is exciting, but getting your online store up and running can feel like a whole other job. That's where Shopify comes in. Whether you're launching a brand new product or turning your side hustle into something bigger, Shopify gives you the tools to make it happen. You can build a professional looking store in minutes with their easy templates, not no coding needed and start selling across your website, socials and even in person. Shopify also helps you stay organized as you grow from tracking inventory to processing payments and calculating taxes. It's all handled in one place so instead of juggling a dozen tools, you can run your entire business from a single dashboard. Shopify helps you run your business so you can focus on growing it, Upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com thestacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com thestacks this new year why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire, inspire and motivate you. Tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on better health, relationships, career, finance, investing and more. Maybe you want to kick a bad habit or start a good one. If you're interested in learning how to master your emotions and hearing scientifically backed advice for using your emotions as a tool, may I suggest Shift by psychologist and bestseller author Dr. Ethan Cross? Trust me, listening on Audible can help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery that's audible.com wondery we are back. I did not prep you for this, but we do a segment here called Ask the Stacks where someone has written in asking for a book recommendation, I'm going to read to you what they said and you're going to come up with at least one up to three recommendations. And people at home, I am really low on Ask the Sack submission so if you email Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com with what you're Looking for maybe some books you like or don't like and we will read them on the air. So do that. This one comes from Derek and Derek said. I recently read Charlie Hustle which is the book about Pete Rose and it is easily one of my favorite reads of the year. I'm looking for another non fiction read that is going to be as gripping as that one with a similar deep dive into an aspect of someone's life rather than a full blown biography. Would love it to be sports related and or scandal related but doesn't have to be just something that takes over my life for a week. I can go first if you want or if you have one, you can go right away.

[Tiana Clark]

I have a quick question. Who, who is Pete Rose?

[Tracy Thomas]

Pete Rose is the baseball player who got kicked out of baseball for cheating that he bet on baseball. Sorry. For betting, not cheating. He's, he was like famous in the 70s. He was really famous then in the 80s he got kicked out of baseball. He's like blacklisted. He's sort of like the great sports villain. Yeah.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

The book is great. If you haven't read it, I can, I can give some recommendations if you want to think. But basically he's asking for like a really gripping story about like some sort of person or event that is sort of scandalous. Is kind of what I took out of this. Okay. My first one, Derek is a true classic. It is a true, at least a true non fiction classic. It is all the President's Men by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward. It is about the Nixon Watergate scandal. It's from the journalists who uncovered it. It's got Deep Throat, it's got Scandal, it's got the Washington Post. It's just, I mean it's so good and it holds up even though you know what happens. So that's one another one. The other two I have are brand new. One is Careless People by Sarah Wynn Williams. This is the Facebook expose book that came out earlier this month. She was pretty high up at Facebook and was a sort of diplomat inside the company. And she spills the tea on Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, this guy named Joel. And I mean it's juicy. Like you'll be obsessed with it for a week. I don't know if it's a. I wouldn't say it's a great book. I have a lot of notes for Sarah. Talk about form and function. But if you want to be sucked in to a crazy story and just like scandal and incompetent humans that would be one. And then my third pick is a book called A better Ending by a guy named James Whitfield Thompson. In the 1970s, James. He goes by Jim. Jim's sister died by suicide, and when it comes out, that's what they decide. And the sister was married to a police officer who was in the house when the gun goes off. So after years, the author, Jim, decides to go back and sort of investigate this death because he always felt like something wasn't quite right about what happened. And so this isn't really like a biography. It isn't really a scandal, but it is such a gripping book, and it almost shouldn't be because, like, I don't know, I. I just. I was really taken by it. I think he handles the subject really well. So it's kind of memoir, but also sort of investigative journalism. I did it on audiobook. I started it on my morning walk and went on an extra walk that day so that I had time to finish the entire book in the day. So, like, it won't take over your life for a week. It'll take over your Life for, like, 24 really good hours. But. So those would be my recommendations. Tiana, what do you have for Derek?

[Tiana Clark]

Well, a memoir that really gripped me. I don't know if this will be Derek's cup of tea, but I love Carmen Maria Machados in the dream house. And it delves into the, like, verbal kind of abuse in a queer relationship. But it's also, the form is really interesting because it is constantly flipping because it's like Dream House as a Southern Gothic, Dream House as a choose your own adventure. Dream House as a Star Trek generation episode. It's constantly, like. It's like flipping forms, but it's investigating kind of the end, like the. The beginning, middle, and end of this relationship all through this, like, lens of a dream house. And it's a. It's a wild book. I've never read anything like that. Like, the choose your own adventure chapter is so fun to read. And so actually, the experience. Experience of reading it feels really exciting and really explosive. And it was one of those, like. I just, like, had to read it, like you were saying. And the whole day, because I just wanted to know what happened. And also the experience of reading it was also kind of my. It was my medic to what was happening at the same time. So that was a really engrossing read for me that I would suggest to Derek. I'm trying to, like, loop my mind around to other ones, but that's what's on the top of my head right now.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's great. That's a great recommendation. Derek, if you read any of our books, let us know. And everyone else, email. Ask the stackstackspodcast.com to get your recommendations read on air. Okay, Tiana, now it's. Now you're really in the hot seat. Two books you love, one book you hate.

[Tiana Clark]

I love Sula by Tony. I'll say both Toni Morrison, Sula and the Bluest Eye, I think that first chapter of the Bluest Eye, I think about constantly. And also the end of the Blue Sigh, I think about with Bucola kind of having that. That breakdown in her psyche. And then I think in Sula, the relationship between the women and the family just reminded me so much of my relationship with my mom. And my favorite chapter is 1923, where Hannah's like, mom, Mama, did you ever love us? And she's like, love you. You're alive, aren't you? And I was like, oh, it's like, you know. And my favorite quote from. It's like, thin love ain't love at all. One book I hate. One book I hate. You know what? I gotta be honest. Oh, I hope I don't get hate for the. Please, guys, don't. No hate mail for me. I have tried to pick up and read Moby Dick so many times, and I just, like. I just, like, can't do it. And someone even, like, told me, like, revisit it when you're abroad. Like, something will click in. And I tried, and I just, like. I just, like, couldn't. Do you like Moby Dick?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, I've never read it. Sounds awful.

[Tiana Clark]

I just.

[Tracy Thomas]

No. No one here will hate you for any. The only way you get hate on this show is if you don't like snacks or if you don't pick a book that you hate. If you're like, I don't hate any books. That's when people are like, but if you hate snacks. Okay, good.

[Tiana Clark]

Also, I tried to. I tried to read Infinite just too. I couldn't.

[Tracy Thomas]

I would never. Like, why. Why would anyone?

[Tiana Clark]

I do. I do like, some of his short stories, but, like, I could not. I think I just got, like, 20 pages in, and I was just like, I can't do it, guys.

[Tracy Thomas]

I can't imagine being good at writing short stories and then being like, now I'm gonna write Infinite, Jess. Like, which is the opposite of a short story. It's like a thousand plus pages being like, okay, well, I nailed the 10,000 word story. Now here's the 5 billion word story. What kind of reader are you? How would you describe who you are as a reader?

[Tiana Clark]

I would say I'm kind of a magpie and that I kind of flitter and flit about. Like, I think because I'm a professor, I'm always having to, you know, I'm reading students work, I'm preparing for class. I'm rereading books for my class. I'm knee deep in research, so I'm all for constant projects. I'm just, like, constantly bip bopping around, you know, knee deep in the J store. And then I'll go get a book, and then I'll be, like, knee deep in that book. But then I'm like, I'm constantly pivoting and turning, kind of like Minority Report, but with books. So it is rare that I would, like, sit down and read a whole book unless it, like, utterly just kind of consumes me. So I'm very much like a nibbler. Nibble. Like, you know, it's a charcuterie board of books. I'm just constantly, you know, if you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Were gonna go on vacation, no work allowed, what kind of book would you turn to?

[Tiana Clark]

So recently, our last August, I went on vacation, and I took Mirinda July's all fours because I just wanted something I was hearing. It was sexy, it was fun.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Tiana Clark]

But she's also just kind of like an intense, weird writer. So I wanted something weird and sexy, and it definitely hit those notes, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

And what's the last really great book you read?

[Tiana Clark]

The Secret Lives of Church Ladies.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, great book. I'm actually gonna have lunch with Disha tomorrow because it's AWP as we're recording this AWP this week.

[Tiana Clark]

I love the short story collection so much, and especially the short story Dear Sister, because I've never met my father. So number one, I broke down crying. But also, the way that Deesha wrote this book, I had never read anything like it where I felt so seen or it felt like it captured. Especially black life, where it wasn't just about pain and suffering. Not that it ignored that, but there's also, like, joy and sex and, like, queerness and ways that I just hadn't seen myself reflected or seen. Like, the holistic black life, you know, reflected. And I just. Oh, I just was obsessed with it. And I just, like, this was a book I couldn't put down, and I was just. And dish is also incredible and so brilliant also. So, like, amazing. And. And, yeah, I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I feel like one of the great joys for me of reading that book is I read it pretty close after it came out because Kia C. Lehman told me to read it. And I had no expectations going in, nor did I know anything about Disha. And I loved the book so much. And then Disha lived up to how much like, as a person, she lived up to how much I loved the book. So I love the book even more because, you know, sometimes you'll love a thing and then like you'll meet the person and you'll be like, oh, well, you're a genius. But like, don't want to talk anymore. Or you'll read something and be like, the book wasn't great. Then you'll meet the person and they'll be great. For me, it was like Disha matched the book and has continued to match the book. So I just, I, I do love, love, love, love that book.

[Tiana Clark]

I also heavy. Heavy was like an incredible question for me too. And also listening to it. I read it and then listen to it. To hear him read it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I did the same thing. I read it and I listened to it. What are some books you're looking forward to reading?

[Tiana Clark]

I'm definitely looking forward to Ocean Vong's new novel, the Emperor. I love Ocean Vong. I love his poetry and I really liked On Earth were briefly gorgeous. I love when poets step out in other genres and they're still their poety self, lyrical self and yeah, you know, remaking for himself. So I'm definitely looking forward to that book. What are some other books coming down the pipeline? I think Gabrielle Cava Cressy, another poet that I adore, has a book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, she comes up in your book. You have bombs.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah, yeah. I love Gabriel Cava Cressi so much. A life giving poet for me, for sure.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I love that. Life giving poet.

[Tiana Clark]

A life giving poet. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

We call books here that are like favorite books or like not even favorite like, but like important books to your life. We call those books of my life. Like that's what I call it, a book of my life. So I like life giving because that's, you know, in conversation.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. One of my best friends and a writer that I adore, Jennifer Hope Choi, has a book coming out called the Wanderer's Curse and it's her first memoir. I'm really looking forward to that one. And what else is going on the pipeline? What are you looking forward to? I mean, what is coming? I'm like, are there any ones that are coming up?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I mean, there's so many books that I am always looking forward to have like a spreadsheet full of them. Because as you might know, I love a form, love a rule, got a whole spreadsheet.

[Tiana Clark]

Are you a Virgo?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, but I have weird. I'm like I'm a Leo. But I, I, I don't know.

[Tiana Clark]

I am giving Virgo energy though.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know I do feel like I have Virgo somewhere. What am I looking forward to? I'm looking forward as we're recording this to the Andrea. Andrea Long.

[Tiana Clark]

Cheers.

[Tracy Thomas]

Shoe collection authority. I'm looking forward to Angela Flournoy's forthcoming book the Wilderness. I'm looking forward to. There's this book called the Last Supper. This is such a me book by this guy Paul Ellie or something. And it's about the 1980s pop culture and religion. So it's like talking about the song Hallelujah Beloved, the AIDS crisis. It's like real, you know, non fict. Like really my cup of tea. But I am, I'm curious, I'm curious to see if he can pull it off. I don't know him, but he's I guess a pretty well known writer that people know. I don't know. He's like a white guy I've never heard of. But it really sucked me in. I don't know. So those are some things I just.

[Tiana Clark]

Saw today on Instagram. Claudia Rinkin has a book coming out late 2026.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I mean I'm looking forward to that.

[Tiana Clark]

I was like screenshot and I was like. Because I will read anything Cardi Rankin. That's. Sorry, you.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, no. I mean, I'm also, you know what, I'm. You know who has a book coming that I'm really excited about. But I don't know when is Clint Smith is doing. I love. Yes, love Clint. And he's doing a sort of how the word is passed but for World War II.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, yes, I saw that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I can't wait. I mean like same any. The moment it comes out, it's immediately getting injected to my vein.

[Tiana Clark]

So there's some writers that it's just like immediate pre order. Like I don't like whatever like whatever.

[Tracy Thomas]

Clint wrote I was gonna read. But also I personally have an obsession like with World War II stuff. So the combination of like Clint Smith and my favorite war. The war to end all wars for me, I don't know is like too good to be. I'm like, I'm sweating. Talk about your body tingling. I'm like tingling over tingly.

[Tiana Clark]

I love it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Tiana Clark]

And then Jose Oliver, I think, is working on a novel, if it's allowed to be said or not. I don't.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think he mentioned it when he was on the show. Maybe. I think it's. I think he's posted that he's working on something and it's a novel. And I. Yes, whenever that comes. I mean, there's so many things like that where I'm like, I'm. I can't. I'm looking forward to your next collection. Like, I don't know when it's coming, but I'll be ready. I mean, that's the thing about working in books. I'm always looking forward to everyone's next thing. Okay, back to you. Back to you. This is about me. This about you. What's a book you love to recommend to people?

[Tiana Clark]

I love to recommend Ross Gay's Catalog of Unabashed Gratitude. I feel like it's like, this is like, if I could carry like, 10 copies in my purse and just give that to everyone, I think, you know, going back to that word accessible. But I say it, and I say it with all the abundance of, like, love. Of, like, this. This book will fill you with joy. This book will fill you with, like, sadness. But this book will give you a hug. You know, this. That book has so many poems for me that are so beloved and I'm dog eared and starred and. Are you. Are you a get in the book?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I can be, but not always. But you know what, Tiana, you're gonna hate this. We did Catalog of Unabashed Gratitude on this podcast for Book Club with Clint Smith. I couldn't get it. I couldn't get into it. It was really. I. It didn't. I just. None of it stuck with me. No. There were moments we talked. It was a few years ago and we talked about it and like, you know, but it hasn't stuck with me. It was actually one of the poetry collections. I was talking to Nate about what I was like, I. How can I know if something is good? Because I know that people love this collection, but it just. I couldn't. I couldn't do it. So I think part of it is long poems are very hard for me. And you write about long poems, but for some reason, your long poems, they're not as long as Catalog of Unabashed Gratitude. Some of those are like 20 pages. I don't know. I struggled with that a lot. And I really thought I was going to be like, yeah. And I read Book of Delights and I liked Book of delights quite a bit, but that is not. It's very different. But don't hate me. But that's just what you're up against.

[Tiana Clark]

I don't hate you.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what you're up against.

[Tiana Clark]

When we get to the Lucille now, I'm like, okay, well, what else can I get for Tracy? I'm like, no, but you know who I love?

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you know what poet I love? Ellen Bass.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, I love Ellen Bass. Yeah. Beautiful poet.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, so good. I love it. I love it.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. What do you like about her? Or what is it. What is it that you connect with in her work?

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know. That. The thing is. That poem. The thing is, you know, it. It's really famous. It's like the thing is to love life and to, like. Well, anyways, I don't know. I just really, like, I get. I. First of all, I feel like I get them. And second of all, I feel like I like her. I don't know. There's something about her that feels extremely likable in the poem. She's sort of like, no bullshit. Maybe a little bit energy.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. Which makes me think. I wonder, have you ever seen Ross Gate live?

[Tracy Thomas]

No. People always say.

[Tiana Clark]

I think it's. I think it's a different. You're like, no, you're okay, you're done.

[Tracy Thomas]

But no, no, no, no. People have told me that. I just never have. I'm trying to pull up. The thing is.

[Tiana Clark]

Yes, I think it's the poem.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's like, to love. To love life. To love it even when you have no stomach for it. And everything you've ever held dear crumbles. And at the end. The end is what I love. Then you hold life like a face between your palms. A plain face, no charming smile, no violet eyes. And you say, yes, I will take you. I will love you again. Come on. It's just. It's short. It's sweet. It does what it needs to do. How can a body withstand this? I don't know, Ellen, how? Yeah, I just love it. I think that's like my favorite poem ever.

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah. What I like about Ellen Bass is something some of that Ada Limone has where you step into the poem and you think like, oh, okay, this is cute. This is nice. And also, like, you just like, there's happens when you're just like. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's the same thing that I love about Tressie macmillan Cottam, her writing. She does the.

[Tiana Clark]

It's a.

[Tracy Thomas]

The turn, the switch. The. Like, it's. That Trick. It's the trick of writing. It's a trick of a good writer. It was like when you think. When the reader thinks they're doing one thing and you're really doing another. And I've. Yeah, I think I love that, too. I do. I. There are other poems I have loved and liked and thought of, but the thing is, really, I'm trying to think any. And there's an E.E. cummings poem that I love, and those are the two poems that I. I think that like. Like in the way that you can recite everything, those are the two poems that I sometimes think about. Do you know what I mean?

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, yeah. E Coming was a big hope for me when I was younger. Just, like, playing with punctuation or playing with form.

[Tracy Thomas]

Was he, like, an awful person or a racist or anything bad? Do I need to know anything about him? Like, Because I really like that one poem.

[Tiana Clark]

I know. I mean, not off the top of my head, but, like, honestly, when it. When it gets back to the.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Tiana Clark]

The older poets, there's always a letter or something that's weird where you're like, oh, there it is. Like, there's the N word, or there's. There's some anti. Semitism, but I don't.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's not like, a notably problematic person.

[Tiana Clark]

Not to my knowledge. Not. I hope.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hope anybody listening. If he's terrible, can you just DM me kindly? Because I have a lot of strong feelings about one single poem, and I just. I'm too scared to look.

[Tiana Clark]

But is it that I carry you in my heart? That poem?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, it's. My father Moved in Waves of Gray and them. Yeah. That poem. Anyways, again, not about me. You keep another.

[Tiana Clark]

Another quick poet. Another quick poet. I know. I can't help it. I think it's like the teacher in me. But Ada Limone's Bright Dead things or the hurting kind would be another one that I would give to people because I think, okay, the way that she ends poems and the way that I think her poems touch people and the concepts that she talks about. So personal, but it's also. It's, like, so personal, but it zooms out to the world and in a way that I find super delightful. And the first time I heard Ada Lamon Reid, I just wept and wept in my seat and. Because I felt so touched and I felt so emotional from the way her poems touched me. Yeah. And she calls fireflies filled bling. How could you not fall in love with her?

[Tracy Thomas]

What does that mean?

[Tiana Clark]

Like, they look like filled bling. To her fireflies. What's filled bling. Oh, like, fireflies are like. Like, like, you know, filled and, like, bling.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. Okay. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

[Tiana Clark]

Books are Magic. Probably in Brooklyn. And then there's also. So. Oh, I just was at a bookstore for the first time for my book tour that I fell in love with Possible Futures in New Haven, Connecticut. I've never had this experience before. I walked in and I felt such vibrant joy, and it almost is set up like a living room. Like, it's set. It's like it invites you to sit down and read. And the owner, Lauren, is just full of so much joy and beautiful energy. And they have a beautiful mural on the outside of an abolitionist. And there's so much color, and it's divided by all these, like, different sections in, like, new ways that I've never seen, like, sections before. And there's plants. It just feels like you're inside someone's really cool house and they've invited you into the living room. And it just had this, like, energy of just. I can. It was just vibrancy and joy that I was like, if I lived here, I would be here all the time. So possible features in New Haven, Connecticut.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's good. What's the last book that made you cry?

[Tiana Clark]

So it's a poetry collection called Short Films Starring My Beloved's Red Bronco by K iver. And they are a non binary poet. And this collection is almost like an elegy collection that is about the loss of the speaker's lover, Missy. And I think the way that they talk about grief in this collection was in a way that I've never seen before, of just making grief a character or carrying your grief with you or making grief, reckoning with grief in a way that I just have never seen kind of manifested in a collection. And I think also the way that K iver talks about gender and kind of tenderly exploding those concepts in ways that I've just never seen before on the page. And I felt really held and I. This was an emotional one for me, for sure.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's a book that you feel proud to have read?

[Tiana Clark]

I want to shout out Saeed because I just looked around and how we fight for our lives. Like, I think especially because I was raised by a single mother. And so I think the way that Saeed talks about his mother in this collection and the grief that he carries and the way that he writes about her was just so similar to the way that I see my mom and I Just I think I felt the. I think he helped me. I think see my mom and a new way and want to hold her and cherish her in a new way after reading that collection. So I feel very. I think that. That when I think of pride, of how I made me re. See my mom in a new way. And so I'll. I'll say that one.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that answer. Okay. What's a book you're embarrassed to have never read?

[Tiana Clark]

Embarrassed to have never read? I've never read War and Peace.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, me neither.

[Tiana Clark]

I feel like that's one. I feel like that's when people, like, talk about. I've never read Middlemarch.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me neither.

[Tiana Clark]

There's a lot of things I haven't read. I remember when I got to grad school, someone asked me, like, where are the gaps in your reading? And I said, where aren't the gaps? Yeah, in my reading. Like, that's how I feel. I haven't read a lot of, like, I haven't read a lot of, like, the, like a lot of the classics, especially in fiction. That my knowledge there is pretty thin.

[Tracy Thomas]

Same, same, same. Okay, we have to talk about snacks a little bit. What's your ideal reading setup? Snacks and beverages. Where are you? What's the vibe?

[Tiana Clark]

I love this question. I am a person who has mini drinks, so in the morning I definitely have to have my coffee. I definitely have to have a soda water. Okay. It's usually a plain soda water.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is this in a can? Do you, like, get it in a bottle? Do you have a soda making machine?

[Tiana Clark]

It's a can. Okay. And then I definitely have to have a tea. I love a throat coat tea. Ginger, peppermint.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay. So usually three drinks are going. And then I always have my water as well.

[Tracy Thomas]

A flat water, just still.

[Tiana Clark]

And I put apple cider vinegar in my water because I'm a weirdo, but I actually do not like the taste of water. And so I need a little. I always need a little bit of something.

[Tracy Thomas]

Something. Okay.

[Tiana Clark]

And I think I read about ACV a long time ago and I've just gotten hooked to it. So apple cider vinegar.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Tiana Clark]

I love snacks so much. I have to be careful. I don't have a ton of snacks, like, while I'm writing, but I definitely have snack breaks. So lately I've been into the lesser evil spaceballs. Have you seen these?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, but I love the lesser evil popcorn. Just. I just wrote about this in my sub stack. I love that.

[Tiana Clark]

Which one, though? Which one?

[Tracy Thomas]

Which one of the pink The Himalayan sea salt pink. Just.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, I'm the Himalayan gold.

[Tracy Thomas]

You like the yellow?

[Tiana Clark]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay. I've never tried that. I tried the pink. I loved it. Never strayed. Never tried any of their other things.

[Tiana Clark]

I'm just saying go. Just one day, go gold. You'll never go back.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I'm a little more buttery.

[Tiana Clark]

It has more of that buttery.

[Tracy Thomas]

More butter, more butter.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, I'm saying more butter.

[Tracy Thomas]

Can't wait. Okay. Okay. I can't wait.

[Tiana Clark]

Costco sells a very big bag.

[Tracy Thomas]

My Costco does not sell. My Costco sells boom. Or whatever the. And I think Boom Chicka is so subpar that I didn't think that I even liked bag popcorn. Because I was like, bag popcorn tastes like boom Chicka and boom chicka tastes like blah.

[Tiana Clark]

Dang it. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Tiana Clark]

Well, if you see it somewhere, go for the gold. It'll change your life.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Tiana Clark]

I'm trying to think of other snacks. Okay. I love any kind of honey mustard pretzel situation.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay. I love a seaweed snack.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Yes. Yes.

[Tiana Clark]

I love a good apple slice and a peanut butter.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, you're losing me. You're losing me.

[Tiana Clark]

I'm losing you.

[Tracy Thomas]

You're getting further and further away from delicious and closer to nature. Okay, I need you to peanut butter. Okay. Apple slice. Not your best answer.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay. Yeah, I love. Oh, my God, I love snacks. I could talk about snacks all day. What are your. Some of your favorite snacks?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, my signature snack that I feel like I can't believe I have not gotten Pepperidge Farm to sponsor me on this is a goldfish mixed with Swedish fish. We call it a pescatarian. And it's the greatest salty sweet combo. You don't put both the things in your mouth at the same time. Sometimes people hear me say this and then they start putting both and I'm like, no. You eat a few goldfish, then you put a few Swedish fish, then you eat a few more goldfish. It's a perfect balance. You can also do it with raisins if you're in a pinch, but it's not as good with raisins. I like a pretzel thin dipped in whipped cream cheese. That's delicious. I like a. I've. I have five year old twins and I have recently gotten back into saltine, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

[Tiana Clark]

Oh, cute. I forgot about those.

[Tracy Thomas]

Don't sleep on those. Wow. Oh, my gosh.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay. I love a good PB and J. Okay, you just parked my memory. Have you ever had the. That popcorn I think it's like something creators where it's the caramel and the cheddar perfect together.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Oh, it's perfect. It's perfect.

[Tiana Clark]

I love salty sweet. I love that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And I also like the pretzels stuffed with peanut butter from, like, Trader Joe's or whatever. Also iconic. Yeah. It's the combo for me. And I love candy. Like a nerd. Nerd cluster. Oh, my God. Just so sweet.

[Tiana Clark]

Okay, there's this Swedish brand. I don't know the name because it's, like, in Swedish, but it's actually. I like the Swedish fish with all the, like, the sour ones.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. Delicious. A friend actually brought those back for me from actual. Or brought something back for me from actual Sweden, where I was like, okay, I am seen. Okay, we are so running out of time. I have to. I could do snacks forever. Okay, last two questions. One is, if you were a high school teacher, what is the book you would assign to your students?

[Tiana Clark]

I mean, honestly, the first thing that came into my head was Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin. I don't know if that's age appropriate, though. But I kind of love. I think it's. I kind of love having adult themes, especially in high school, because you're already experiencing those emotions and you feel like an adult. Yeah. It makes you feel kind of cool when you're like, yeah, I don't know that one came to mind because Giovanni's room is so important to me. And especially that idea of figuring out that sense of loneliness when you leave the place that you're from. And I think relation, messy relationship complications, especially when you're in high school. Like, I feel like you would love. Like, it's so messy, but it's also so lonely, and you just feel, like, the ache. And I think it's interesting in that book when Baldwin says, like, home is not a place, but I can never say this word. Irrevocable condition. And I would just love to discuss that, I think, with students. Or, like, what does it mean to talk about home when you're not there? And what does it mean to, like, have identity and pleasure and not be able to express that? I feel like that would be a really interesting book.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that. Okay, last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

[Tiana Clark]

I mean, I'm trying to think of a book that would somehow engender empathy in him, and I'm like, I don't even know if that's possible. I'm like, what what would. What would make him have empathy or make him feel. I'm like, is that even. Is that even doable? I think I would have him read When My Brother Was An Aztec by Natalie Diaz, because I think I want to go with an indigenous poet, you know, from this land. And I think Natalie's collection is absolutely stunning and how she collides the personal and the political and also, you know, deals with the personal, you know, family issue around addiction. And I think that would be the one that I would select her.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love it. Okay, everybody, Tiana will be back on April 30th for our book club discussion of Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton, a poet I've never read. I've only read, like, whatever poems, you know, float around on the Internet. So I'm really excited. This is, I think, our fifth time doing, like, Poetry Month poetry collection, and we've never really done a classic. I think the furthest back we've sort of gone is Ross Gay. Everything else has been more like a more recent poet. So I'm really excited to kind of go back a little bit and dig in with you. So, everybody, you can get your copy of that book wherever you get your books. You should also get your copy of Scorching Earth, Tiana's book that just came out in March, and read that. And I can vouch for the audiobook. I listen to some of the poems. Tiana reads them, and she reads them like an actual human being and not like a robot. So if you want to listen, you can do that, too. Tiana, thank you so much for being here.

[Tiana Clark]

Thank you, Tracy, so much. This is such a fun, delightful conversation, and I appreciate you so much.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yay. Thank you, everyone else. We will see you in the stacks, foreign y'all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Tiana Clark for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Holly Rice, Jose Olivarez, Jenny Shu, and Nate Marshall for helping to make this episode possible. Don't forget, our book club pick for April is Blessing the Boats New and Selected Poems 1988-2000 by Lucille Clifton. We will be discussing discussing the book on Wednesday, April 30th with Tiana Clark. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join our community of the Stacks pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on on Instagram threads and TikTok, and check out our [e-mail] this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.