Ep. 367 What Does It Mean to Know a Celebrity with Giaae Kwon

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks Ep. 367 – "What Does It Mean to Know a Celebrity" with Giaae Kwon

Release Date: April 16, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 367 of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes Giaae Kwon, a culture writer and author of the insightful book I'll Love You Forever: Notes from a K-Pop Fan. The conversation delves deep into the intricate world of K-Pop, exploring its cultural impact, the nature of fandom, and the personal experiences that shape a fan's relationship with this global phenomenon.

Guest Introduction: Giaae Kwon and Her Book

Traci introduces Giaae Kwon as a cultural writer whose debut book serves as both a love letter and a critical examination of K-Pop’s influence on her life as a Korean American. Giaae’s work offers a nuanced perspective on how K-Pop intertwines with issues of culture, race, and personal identity.

Understanding K-Pop: Industry and Music

The discussion begins with Giaae explaining the fundamental aspects of K-Pop. She differentiates K-Pop from other global pop industries by highlighting its highly controlled nature:

"Some people criticize it for being, like, formulaic. Like, in Korea, the entertainment company controls everything... They audition, they scout, they train, they form the groups" (01:30).

Giaae emphasizes that K-Pop's uniqueness lies in the tight-knit control entertainment companies have over every facet of a group's existence, from their formation to their public personas. This systematic approach results in distinct group brands, each with specific roles and identities crafted by their management.

Fandom Culture: Parasocial Relationships and Community

Traci and Giaae delve into the nature of K-Pop fandom, particularly the concept of parasocial relationships, which are almost engineered by the industry:

"Parasocial relationships are built into idol dom. It's not like a side effect of, like, fame, but it's, like, built into it" (05:56).

Giaae discusses how K-Pop fandom fosters intense connections between fans and idols, often blurring the lines between genuine relationships and superficial interactions. The use of technology, such as live streaming platforms like Bubble, exacerbates this by allowing fans to feel a pseudo-direct connection with their favorite stars.

Mental Health and K-Pop Idols

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the mental health challenges faced by K-Pop idols, partly due to the relentless demands of the industry and invasive fan behavior:

"I'm more concerned about their like, health and well-being" (22:55).

Giaae highlights how the pressure to maintain an impeccable public image and the constant scrutiny from fans and netizens can lead to severe mental health issues, including depression and, tragically, suicides among celebrities.

Racism and Cultural Appropriation in K-Pop

Giaae brings attention to the pervasive issues of racism and cultural appropriation within the K-Pop industry:

"Racism is a really big problem in K-pop... a lot of cultural appropriation" (32:10).

She points out that K-Pop, while a global phenomenon, often borrows elements from other cultures without proper acknowledgment or sensitivity, leading to accusations of appropriation. This issue is compounded by the lack of meaningful conversations and actions within the industry to address these concerns.

Personal Narratives: Body Image and Fandom Experiences

The conversation shifts to Giaae’s personal journey with body image and how it intersects with her fandom:

"Coming out of body shaming, it's been over 10 years... I live with it" (45:34).

Giaae shares her struggles with body shaming within both Korean and American communities, illustrating how societal pressures can impact one's sense of self. Her book intertwines these personal experiences with broader cultural critiques, offering readers a heartfelt exploration of identity.

Challenges in Writing and Publishing the Book

Giaae discusses the process of writing I'll Love You Forever, balancing the needs of K-Pop aficionados with newcomers to the genre:

"Having an editor who didn't know that much about K-pop was really helpful" (08:42).

She explains how her editor played a crucial role in ensuring the book was accessible to a diverse audience, preventing it from becoming too insular or overly technical for those unfamiliar with K-Pop.

Future and Recommendations

As the episode wraps up, Giaae offers recommendations for listeners interested in further exploring themes similar to those in her book:

"I really liked Hannah Michelle's Excavations... and Hawon Chung's Flowers of Fire" (58:51).

She encourages readers to engage with literature that provides historical and cultural contexts, fostering a deeper understanding of complex societal issues.

Conclusion

Traci and Giaae conclude the episode by reiterating the importance of critically engaging with pop culture while maintaining a genuine love for the art form. Giaae hopes her book encourages readers to appreciate K-Pop's vibrancy while acknowledging and addressing its inherent challenges.

Listeners are encouraged to explore Giaae Kwon’s I'll Love You Forever: Notes from a K-Pop Fan to gain a comprehensive understanding of the multifaceted world of K-Pop and its profound impact on both fans and the broader cultural landscape.

---

Note: The timestamps provided correspond to the moments in the transcript where the quotes appear, facilitating easy reference for listeners who wish to revisit specific segments.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hey, listeners. I'm here to tell you about an exciting event that's happening on Sunday, May 4. It is called Stack the Shelves. And it is a special pop up bookshop that the Stacks is hosting dedicated to supporting individuals and families impacted by the recent Los Angeles wildfires. We're going to have books, author signings, a kid's corner, food, music, lawn games, special guests, and more. And so now here's the part where I turn to you, the amazing Stacks community, and ask you for help in order to make this day a sick, smashing success. We need volunteers local to Los Angeles. We need your donations, which will be tax deductible thanks to our partners at LA Room and Board, a fantastic nonprofit. 100 of your donations will go directly to families, including gift cards to Octavia's Bookshelf so they can continue to build their libraries. And we need your help spreading the word. Head to the snackspodcast.com shelves to get all the details. Again, that is the stacks podcast.com shelves.

[Jie Kwon]

I always kind of thought of my thing with fandom as being a way of me dealing with loneliness. I did go through very lonely years where I felt very isolated and I could find some kind of solace and connection in K Pop fandom. And I know that I do have an obsessive personality. Like, I think that's part of my add. I'll just like, fixate on. On something.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

So that's definitely part of it. Like, I can hook onto something and like, do a really deep dive. And I think for a lot of people, or for at least some parts of fandom, it does come from this desire to, like, know. You know, obviously in quotes, like, what does it really mean to know a celebrity? But this idea that you can have a relationship even though it's a fake relationship.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Jie Kwon to the show. Jie is a culture writer whose debut book, I'll Love youe Forever Notes from a K Pop Fan, is a love letter and a cultural exploration of the complex world of K Pop and how it shaped her life as a Korean American. Today, Ga and I talk about the different ways fandoms play out in the United States and Korea, what community looks like in these spaces, and why mental health and K Pop seem to go hand in hand. Don't forget our book club pick for April is Blessing the Boats New and Selected Poems, 1988 through 2000 by Lucille Clifton. Tiana Clark will be back on Wednesday, April 30th to discuss this book with us, so please read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack. Or check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com by becoming a member in both of these places, you support the work that I do and you get a lot of fun stuff like bonus episodes, access to the discord, hot takes, and more. So check out patreon.com the stacks and Tracy thomas.substack.com okay, now it's time for my conversation with Ga Kwan. All right, everybody, I'm so excited. I'm joined today by an author now. But first, a friend of mine from the book space, Ga Kwan, whose brand new book is I'll love you Forever. Notes from a K Pop fan. Welcome to the Stacks. Thank you for having me. I'm so proud of you. This is just so exciting for me. I have to just say upfront to everyone listening. I know basically nothing about K Pop except for the things I learned from your book. So anything, like, stupid or ignorant, I say about K Pop. I'm sorry. I'm. I'm so new here. Like, I can't even fake the funk at all. Okay, tell us about the book. 30 seconds or so. Set it up.

[Jie Kwon]

The book is about K Pop. They are essays that braid personal writing and cultural criticism to kind of give a broader, bigger context as to K Pop, which is, as we know Today, it's about 30 years old. So it's a very young industry.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. And for people who are as dumb as me, or maybe no more. Can you just sort of tell us what is K Pop? Like, technically? What makes something K pop?

[Jie Kwon]

Okay, so if I were to distinguish K Pop from maybe other pop industries, I think it's maybe kind of the way the industry is run. It is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jie Kwon]

Some people criticize it for being, like, formulaic. Like, in Korea, the entertainment company controls everything. So they audition, they scout, they train, they form the groups. They give the groups their identity. They're the ones who get the songwriters. They produce everything. They also manage advertising contracts, any variety show appearances or media appearances. Like, it's all controlled by the company. And it's very like, each. Each group is like a brand. So they all have their group brands individually. They have, like, they're like role in the group. And I think one other thing that sets it apart is a parasocial relationships are built into idle dom. Like, it's not like a side effect of, like, fame, but it's, like, built.

[Tracy Thomas]

Into it are the entertainment companies. Those are basically, like, the record labels, if you're giving it sort of like an American, you know, comparison. And then to me, like, from what I hear, and maybe this is just because how old I am. This is just like, so much of it reminds me of, like, the early days of NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys and the Spice Girls, where it was like they were making these groups and it was like, oh, my God, they put these people together. Like, they. And like, 98 degrees was special because Nick, Andrew Lachey were actually brothers and, like, those guys actually knew each other versus the. Like, we got Justin Timberlake, we got J.C. chise. And so it sort of reminds me of that. Does that feel like an okay comparison on the sort of, like, forming the group? Because those groups had personalities and. Right. You don't know this. And I'll tell you the secret, and we can leave it in the episode because it'll have aired by then. But I'm talking to a Spice Girl on this podcast, Ginger Spice. Wow. Which is insane. She wrote a book. I haven't read it yet. I'm sure it's lovely. But they were like, ginger Spice wrote a book. And I was like, well, listen, I was 12 years old in, like, 19 or, like, in like, 2000. So I'm available for the interview. Anyways, anyways, this is not about the Spice Girls, though it could be, because I do want to talk about fandom. But before we do that, the only K pop I really know is blackpink and bts. And I was surprised that there's, like, lots of genres of music. The music is not specific to K pop in the way that, like, rap music is a genre or country music as a genre. It's more just like all pop, more, like, broadly pop music and can have different sounds and styles.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. So K pop does pull from a lot of things, but Korean music in general, there is, like a rap hip hop scene. There is, like, an indie band scene, but you really don't really slot them into K pop necessarily. So there is a bigger music industry, but K pop will kind of pull from, like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it.

[Jie Kwon]

K pop.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, the bands will have a little. It'll be like the country ish1. Or like the country, like, the hip hoppy one, the rock. Because you talk about like the rock one that came from the indie scene and.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, great. Now I want to talk about the book. Okay. So first and foremost, my mo. My most pressing question for you, because I think you did a really great job of this, is I want to know how you were thinking about audience, knowing that you had. Have in the past written a column about K pop music. You are writing to an audience that knows a ton about K pop, but you're also writing to people like me who don't really know anything. And so I'm wondering how you struck that balance, how you knew if you were doing too much, like, let me teach you idiots, versus, like, let's do inside baseball. So how were you thinking about that?

[Jie Kwon]

I think it definitely helped having an editor who didn't know that much about K pop. So if you know the editing process is long. There are many people who touch a book. And so, like, if there were specific questions that came up that, like, they didn't know something about that I would have to expand on. That was helpful because I definitely did sometimes run into the, I guess, sometimes trap of. Because I've grown up with this. I know this industry. So that was really helpful knowing that there were external readers who would come in and, like, ask questions and, like, ask for clarification. But yeah, I guess when I was thinking of audience, I don't know that I was necessarily thinking just of K pop fans because I feel like. Like, pop is universal. It's everywhere. Yeah, like, fandom is universal. It's just like, the specificities, really, that. That people might get caught on when.

[Tracy Thomas]

Your editors or like, other readers, outside readers who didn't know as much about K pop, when they would, like, push back. Were there ever times where you were like, no, I'm not. I'm not doing that. Or, like, that's too stupid. Like. Like, were there ever times where you guys, like, disagreed about how to frame these types of things for readers who may be. Aren't as familiar?

[Jie Kwon]

Surprisingly not. I like, said up front to my editor that I didn't want to do a glossary. There's no glossary in the book. And she was like, that's fine. Like, we'll figure out. Like, there are definitely. Maybe there are, like, a few words in Korean that I don't define. Maybe. But then, like, in places where she was like, I think we should maybe clarify a little, then, like, we would put in, like, maybe a clearer definition. But she was definitely very like, yeah, if you don't want to do a glossary, you don't do a glossary. We'll figure it out. People can figure it out. Readers are smart. Readers are smart. Yeah, they can figure it out.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm a reader. I'm smart. I'm exactly. I listened to the audiobook. You did such a good job. Obviously, I knew you were a great writer, but I feel like you can be shy. And so I was like, oh, she's going to be shy. And then I get the book and I'm like, oh, my God, this is amazing. I just like. You were funny parts. You were, like, very sincere. I. I think I really like. I really liked the audiobook. I was, like, cooking, listening to you. So people at home, if you're curious about the audio, it's definitely. I do recommend. Okay, let's talk a little bit about fandom. Because like you said, pop music is pop music. It is. We all. Everyone has a relationship to pop music in some way. That's because it's popular. It's the music of. Of your time and place. How do you feel like the fandom piece of it manifests differently in Korea or with Korean American communities and versus, I guess, the US Broadly? It's sort of hard because there's so many communities in the U.S. i don't want to be, like, just white people, but I feel like there's maybe something, like, culturally different about the ways that these two countries sort of relate to fandom. So what. What does that seem like to you?

[Jie Kwon]

I guess, first adding the caveat that I'm not super familiar with, like, Western fandom.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. You're not. You have no. No real relationship to Western fandom?

[Jie Kwon]

Not really. I don't really follow Western pop as much, so I get some of it, but I'm not.

[Tracy Thomas]

But you do know the Spice Girls?

[Jie Kwon]

Yes. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Thank God. Because that whole bit before would have just been a waste of our time if you didn't know what I was talking about.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes, I do know them. Okay, but like, K Pop fandom, when we talk about it in the west, is kind of in two layers. So you have K fandom in Korea and the UF Ifandom for international fandom, which, when we talk of it in the west, we mean the west, even though K Pop is huge, like, all over Asia, which is also international. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I see.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I. Fandom is like the west and K fandom is Korea.

[Jie Kwon]

Korea.

[Tracy Thomas]

Other Asian countries kind of. Yeah, can be. Can be.

[Jie Kwon]

Can be. Because. Yeah, because we don't really distinguish between Asian countries in the west, so. Okay, got it. I Think K pop fandom is intense? Like, yeah, again, because the whole parasocial relationship is built into it and it's part of what you do as an idol. Like you need to foster these intense like relationships with your fans. And I think like technology has made it worse with like, you know, fans go on live. They have like, there's a platform called bubble where it's like they can post like photos or you know, kind of almost like tweets, but it's like structured like you're you as a fan are getting like a dm. So there are all these like little things where K pop fan is meant to kind of have this like fake relationship with your idol. And so I think that breeds a kind of intensity that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jie Kwon]

Is really bad. Like we have a word called saeng fans for fans who just regularly cross boundaries because they feel like they own and possess this idol and it's like they follow them home, they break into their apartments, they'll rent apartments in the same building to get like access. Yeah, it's really. That's creepy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is there any like push from the K pop stars to like have their companies like not like protect them? I mean I feel like something that I see here in the States is like this next generation of like Chapel Roan is like, you. I'm not going to tell you like who I'm voting for. You don't have the right to have that access to me. Like my business is my business. And that feels sort of new in the States in a way that like Britney Spears was, you know, fighting for her life from the paparazzi and really like her whole was out there. And so I'm wondering if in. Because there's different generations of K pop and we're sort of in the fourth generation. Is my understanding.

[Jie Kwon]

Fifth.

[Tracy Thomas]

Fifth generation is my understanding. I read the book. I swear I don't know.

[Jie Kwon]

Fourth to fifth that spit a debate.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, okay, okay, okay. I'm on the edge.

[Jie Kwon]

But I concede that we are in fifth.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, okay. That sounds like real. Inside there are people who are going to be really happy. They'd be in your DMs. But like, are we seeing with the fourth and fifth generation that they are not wanting this or is the fandom idol part of it, like encouraged even among the stars?

[Jie Kwon]

I think it's still encouraged. I mean, I think if there's pushback it might be happening behind the scenes. But no, they still very much like participate in all of it. Like I think like Jungkook in Bangtan for example. Like, he's said on lives, like, please don't send me food delivery. Like, don't come to my gym. So he'll like, say things. So, like, yeah, like, they'll apparently show up at his gym.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's like, I'm just trying to deadlift. Leave me alone.

[Jie Kwon]

Like, don't send me food delivery to my apartment. So I think sometimes they do, like, try to, like, say, like, don't do this, don't do that. But, like, how much authority do they actually have? Not really. And yeah, it's still. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. So the other piece of this that, like, ties into your story, because the thing about the book that's so great is, like, you really do. As much as it's about K pop. And I have so many, like, stupid little K pop questions. It really doesn't feel like a music book or a K pop book. It really feels like a memoir. And you're sort of just like using K pop to anchor your story. But one of the things that comes up so much is depression and mental health. And there's a lot of suicides of K pop stars. It felt like there were a lot. I don't know if that's proportionate to the number of celebrities that are dying of suicide in general, but it just, it comes up a lot in this book. And do we think that it's because of, like, this access and this constant, like, there's no break if people are coming to your gym and, like, know where you live and are moving into your building? So do we think that, like, the mental health piece of it for these stars is extra precarious?

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it. Like, that it probably does feed into mental health. But I think the bigger issue when it comes to there are a lot of celebrity suicides. It's just that netizen culture in Korea is really bad, which maybe doesn't necessarily make it unique because I know Internet culture here is also really bad. But the way that netizens will just harass celebrities if they do anything wrong, especially if you're a woman, if you step out of line, quote, unquote, in any way, they'll just the way that they pile on and the way that they criticize, it's really bad. Netizen culture in Korea can be really intense. And we've seen a new thing where recently for Rise, which is a new group, they debuted, I think 2023, and like, one of their members was found to have had a girlfriend when he was a trainee, which did not go Over. Well, with.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's against the rules.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, it's against the rules. And so, like, not only was it, like, the netizen harassment, like, apparently fans would, like, send funeral wreaths to sm. So. Like, on the street. Yeah, to the company on the street. Like, funeral wreaths for this member who is no longer in the group. Because that was, like, their way of protesting that he shouldn't be in it. So it's in general netizen and fan culture, I think.

[Tracy Thomas]

Definitely they pulled him from the group.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. So they had to pull him from the group. He is reportedly going to debut as a solo artist, but they come up. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So. But we'll see if he actually happens. Like, do they have to change his whole Persona?

[Jie Kwon]

I don't know. They. This is actually not happening.

[Tracy Thomas]

Breaking news. Okay. Okay.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like you got to change your Persona. Like, if he's like the good boy who cut, like, then he's got to come out and be, like, a womanizer or whatever. Or he's got to go from being like, the really, like, big personality to being really shy writing in his journal or whatever. Like, he's got to do a full personality shift.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because if he just comes out without a group, it's like. Like, you can't do this by yourself. You're not ready. Like. Yeah, that's weird.

[Jie Kwon]

And there aren't that many soloists in K Pop, so there's not and are.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the ones who are generally people who have come from other groups.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. So people will debut solo after they've been a group. They'll still be part of the group, but they'll have, like, solo activities.

[Tracy Thomas]

But yeah, that never works in America. Oh, except for Beyonce, but she never went back to the group either. In the States, you're either in a group or you're not. And, like, once you sort of solo, you don't really get to come back. You know, like, the Fugees are not hanging out with Lauryn Hill anymore. There's no more Fujis, Destiny's Child. No more. And no more like, these. Once they get the solo, they're like, I don't want to have friends. I didn't. I didn't want to do this. And I thought. I thought that was really interesting because that is a contrast that, like.

[Jie Kwon]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

And in K Pop, I love that they made the, like, super groups of, like, the different generations of singers come together to make, like, a suit. Like, could you imagine if we had, like, Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, like, oh, my God, I don't Know, I keep like Chapel Rome, like in a super group, it would be like, what the. But I think, I mean, that sounded like very cool to me. Yeah. Do you feel like for yourself as a fan, what do you gain personally from being a fan? Like, what is it about being a fan that is fulfilling to you besides, like, you know, the music? Because you could, you could listen to the music and not be like a person immersed in the fan culture.

[Jie Kwon]

Right. I think K Pop to me is just. It's fun. Yeah. And I think definitely on a personal level for me as a Korean American who was born and raised in the US and always kind of wanted to be accepted by Koreans, especially because a lot of the body shaming for me and rejection came from Koreans. So wanting that acceptance and wanting to be a part of that, I think that's one of the things that has kept me in K pop, this sense of like, oh, this is part of me. Like, it in a way belongs to me. And also because, you know, when I was younger, we didn't have the Internet in the way that we, we do today, so I couldn't participate in fandom in the ways that I wanted to or the ways that I could have if I was in Korea. So I think for me, one of the things I personally get is just a sense of like, identity and place and belonging.

[Tracy Thomas]

And you talk about in the book, like, how as you get older, you get further and further away from the age of the idols. Have you figured out what you're gonna do? Like, what happens to adult K pop fans? Like, because are you gonna be 60? I mean, I. There. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Like, there's like 70 year old men who love football in America. Right. Who like root for 18 or 19 year old boys who, you know. So like, I don't, I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with it, but it is something like certainly that you're thinking about. So I'm wondering sort of where your thinking has gone there.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like. I feel like there's more distance between me and now, like idols who are 4th, 5th gen. Because just the age gap and I feel like I've become more motherly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jie Kwon]

I'm just kind of being like more concerned about their like, health and well being.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. So I feel like I'll probably likely continue to follow K Pop, but it'll be with less fervor.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. More of just hoping to see more change. But no, they're definitely like, there's a term for, like, ajuma fans who, you know, are middle aged and really, like, like the younger idols and like, they. They still get that kind of, like, joy and fun out of, you know, stanning them. But for me, I'm just kind of like, they're all little babies. Eat properly, get some sleep.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so funny. Is. Is it. Is fandom gendered in Korea in the same way that sort of like, here, like, women are really looked down on if you are like a super fan. Like, they really trivialize it, like the screaming girls. And it's been a thing since the Beatles, right? Like, it's like, oh, these stupid girls love the Beatles. Is it. Is it a similar thing or are men also K pop stands?

[Jie Kwon]

Men are still. They are K pop stands, but usually of, like, girl groups with, oh, creepier undertones.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was gonna say. I feel weird about this.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. So there are men who are K pop fans, but it is. It is definitely very gendered. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And is it looked down on? Like, is it treated as, like, a silly thing?

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so that's the same as here gendered anything women like is the worst and stupid, and women should get over it and learn about smart things. Okay. That's universal. Great. Glad we got that out of the way. What is it about fandom? This is like a kind of a broad question. Do you. Why do you think that some people are more susceptible to becoming super fans or, like, obsessive fans or just, like, good, strong. Maybe not obsessive, but, like, you know, fans?

[Jie Kwon]

I guess, speaking as one myself. Yeah, I have no idea.

[Tracy Thomas]

You don't know what it is about you that makes you like. Well, I. I just. Because as I was reading your book, I was thinking a lot about my own relationship to things. And while I am like, I am a fan of a lot of things, I am not interested in the person outside of, like, the art. Like, I'm almost like. That's almost like a turn off for me. Like, sometimes when there's, like, celebrity gossip that is, like, personal, I'm like, I don't want to know that. You know? Like, I'm like. At first I was like, oh, the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni thing. I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then it was like, oh, this has to do with her breastfeeding. Like, I don't care. Like, I don't. That's her and her baby. Like, I don't. I don't like it here. I don't want it. And I mean, not that I'm a huge fan of hers or his. But I did love Gossip Girl. But that's, for me, like, I don't feel like I have that same kind of, like, urge for fandom. So I'm wondering what it is for you that, like, feels like I love it here.

[Jie Kwon]

Mm. I feel like I also am not super interested in, like, the personal personal. Like, I know. I know there are many fans who are. But I also, as much as I love gossip in general, like, there's this whole, like, recent controversy with Kim Seon that caught me unawares because I wasn't following his, like, even his, like, public appearances outside of his dramas. Because for me, I was like, I like you as an actor. So some of this stuff has thrown me off guard because I don't really care about the personal, personal.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jie Kwon]

But I feel like maybe it just. Sometimes I wonder if it comes down to just the desire to connect and to, like, quote, unquote, know someone. And I. For me, I always kind of thought of my thing with fandom as being a way of me dealing with loneliness, because I did go through very lonely years where I felt very isolated and I could find some kind of solace and connection in K pop fandom, even though, again, I wasn't really following people's personal lives, but having some kind of interest outside of just the music. Like, I would watch, like, yenning programs, like, variety shows or, you know, once everyone started getting on YouTube, like, watching vlogs and stuff like that. Like, I have limits as to how much of that stuff I can consume. But.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, like, and I know that I do have an obsessive personality. Like, I think that's part of my add. I'll just, like, fixate on something.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

So that's definitely part of it. Like, I can hook onto something and, like, do a really deep dive. But, yeah, I think personally, for me, it was just a lot of being lonely and again, just wanting to connect with a part of me that I felt like I didn't have access to. And I think for a lot of people, or for at least some parts of fandom, it does come from this desire to, like, know. You know, obviously in quotes, like, what does it really mean to know a celebrity? But this idea that you can have a relationship, even though it's a fake.

[Tracy Thomas]

Relationship, and it sounds like that's by design, like, that is part, like, the people who are pulling the strings at these companies, that is as much the product as the music or the style or the branding. It is the connection with the fans.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Starting a business is exciting, but getting your online store up and running can feel like a whole other job. That's where Shopify comes in. Whether you're launching a brand new product or turning your side hustle into something bigger, Shopify gives you the tools to make it happen. You can build a professional looking store in minutes with their easy templates, no coding needed, and start selling across your website, socials, and even in person. Shopify also helps you stay organized as you grow from tracking inventory to processing payments and calculating taxes. It's all handled in one place, so instead of juggling a dozen tools, you can run your entire business from a single dashboard. Shopify helps you run your business so you can focus on growing it, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey all, I wanted to tell you about Village well. It is a woman owned, community focused bookstore and cafe located in the heart of downtown Culver City. If you live close to Culver City, 1,000% stop by. But if you're not in the Los Angeles area, you can buy books directly from their website shop village well.com you can also support their podcast Village well Podcast, which interviews authors and fellow readers about the books that capture their imagination. There's a fantastic episode with friend of this pod, Jason De Leon that you should definitely check out. Village well Podcast releases new episodes every Wednesday. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, you won't want to miss it. Hey friends, it's me, Tracy. And if you love what you hear on today's episode of the Stacks or any episode of the Stacks and you want to dive deeper into the world of books with me, I've got two great ways for you to do that. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter Unstacked over on Substack. Patreon is where the Stacks community really shines. We've got a Discord Monthly Book Club meetups and our year long mega reading Challenge to help you push your reading goals. If you want to be part of this incredible community and I cannot overstate that, head to patreon.com thestacks now over on my substack, I'm sharing my thoughts twice a week from what I'm reading to what's happening in the Book world in pop culture and sports. And on Substack, you're going to find my mini reviews, rankings, reading goals and plenty of opinions. Whether you want to subscribe for free or unlock even more with a paid subscription, you can do that by going to tracythomas.com substack.com and if you join Patreon or Substack, you are going to get a monthly bonus episode. If you want to support this black woman, run independent podcast and treat yourself to some extra bookish bonus content, go to patreon.com thestacks or Tracy Thomas substack.com to join. I would love to have you. Okay, we're back. I want to talk about racism in K pop because you have a chapter. You have chapters on homophobia, you have chapters. There's a lot about body stuff which we'll get to, but you have a chapter where we're talking about racism and sort of the ways that shows up in K pop. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about. About that.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, K pop, I mean, if you think about it, K Pop was not, I guess, what you would call natural to Korea. Like, it is imported from the West. I guess maybe not so much imported as it is. It was very much influenced from the West. It came in through military GIs. So you could argue that the entire structure is entirely appropriative. And racism is a really big problem in K pop. I think I brought it up specifically in connection to Big Bang specific, in connection to, like, cultural appropriation. You see a lot of it. I quoted the maid music video particularly, like, you can see a lot of like visually, whether it's hairstyles or like singing in that video is wearing like a chieftain, one of the chieftain hats. And I think it's a problem because it also comes from within the companies and no one has really reckoned with it in the industry yet. And you see it a lot in the fandom too, especially like black fans who try to point out things like appropriation. You see a lot of other fans trying to like smother that criticism or trying to like, quote unquote, neutralize it, but basically just by like ignoring it and like sweeping it under the rug. And yeah, it's a really big problem. And again, I don't think the industry has not reckoned with it yet. And it's like not even really a conversation, which I think is not good.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. I thought something that you said that I thought was interesting was like, there is a lot of outside criticism of the racism from people who are not, like, in Korea or K pop fans or whatever. And I thought it was interesting that you were, like, coming from Americans. It's sort of rich because of, like, the kind of racism that we have here. And I thought that was, like, really fair. I think that's fair. I think, like, this, like, immediate jump to criticize a problem that is a problem, like, it is. There's not. The solutions have not. Well, we might know what those solutions are. They're not being worked towards right here or abroad. And I. Why I like that is because I also felt like there's a lot of weird ways that K pop is, like, sort of sensationalized or, like, exoticized. Like, the ways that K pop music and fandom is sort of here in the west is, like, treated with certainly a culturally inappropriate, if not racist lens. So I'm wondering, like, what. How you see that as a Korean American, like, you are both American and Korean, and you live in both of these spaces. So I'm curious what that is like for you.

[Jie Kwon]

I find Western treatment of K pop to be incredibly frustrating.

[Tracy Thomas]

Say more.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, I feel like there is a tendency to sensationalize. I feel like there's also this, like, tendency to, like, if they get a whiff of anything that's, like, about the dark sides of K pop, people love to hop onto that. One of the big things that drove me in the writing of the book just kind of wanting to contextualize K pop and, like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jie Kwon]

Because, like, these artists don't come out of nowhere.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jie Kwon]

And there's a big history. And there's, like, reasons for K pop being the way that it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Like, like, on the business side, you mean?

[Jie Kwon]

Kind. And I guess also on the cultural side. Yeah, yeah. Like, because it comes out of such a specific sociopolitical context, an economic context. Like, there's a reason for the intensity. There's a reason for, like, I think even, like, how controlled it is. But if you kind of look at it without context, you're just kind of like, what's going on.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, right. I mean, I think that's what's great about the book is you sort of, like, early on, you sort of are like, okay, let me sort of lay this out, like, what this is and how this all works. Which is helpful, obviously, for someone like me who doesn't know anything. But I imagine for people who, like, maybe like the music but aren't really, like, connected to the history of the art, which, I mean, I think that that's true of, like, country music. In the United States, that's true of most music. Like, a lot of people listen to rap music and don't understand the Moments in the 1970s in New York City that informs so much of what it is and how it changes over time and all of that. And I think what is really enjoyable about your book is that whatever you're into, whatever kind of music you're into, as, as a reader, you can see your world in this story. Or, like, you can see there. There is something to connect to, even if it's not the music that you listen to. Unless maybe, I think maybe, like, if you're a classical music person, it might be slightly different because I was, like, so old and boring, you know, like, so who would do that? But just kidding. If you like classical music, you're better than me. You're so smart. I love you, Vivaldi. Anyways, I'm gonna go to jail. But another thing, sort of on the same line is you talk about in the book how much you hate when people say music is a universal language. Can you talk about that?

[Jie Kwon]

I think that ties into how. Just this idea that if you. Because we're talking about K Pop. Like, if you like K pop, it's somehow makes you not racist.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Jie Kwon]

I find it to be very similar to when people try to say that they're not colorblind.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Oh, like I listen to K pop.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I am.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. I'm like, enlightened or.

[Tracy Thomas]

I see.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because you compare it also to the reading gives you empathy.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Things.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Which, I mean, I struggle with that.

[Jie Kwon]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I gotta be honest, I do struggle with it because in my experience, personally, just. I'm just speaking for myself, sometimes when I read something, I do feel like it changes my ability to understand a person, place or thing in a new way.

[Jie Kwon]

Oh, yeah, huh.

[Tracy Thomas]

On the flip side, though, I also understand that just because you read something doesn't mean that you're gonna have that experience or, like, that. That it will change who you are. Like, I don't think if Donald Trump reads Beloved, he's gonna be like, well, yeah, black people. Did you guys hear about slavery? Like, this was not great surprise. So, like. But I am of two minds because sometimes people will be like, I read this book and it changed me. And I'm like, okay, sure. But then sometimes I'm like, okay, but you just read a book. Like, So I sort of feel, like, torn.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, same. Because I absolutely think reading, even music, even K Pop, it can be transformative. Like, there. There are stories of I think I read this one tweet by this person who was like, my aunt got super into QAnon. And then I met her again, like, a year later, and she was, like, super into Bangtan and into, like, supporting the, like, Black Lives Matter. And, like, had kind of come around to, like, you know, it was a transparent experience.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, this. This is a cult situation. No, I'm not kidding. So we read that book last year. We read that book last year. I. I interviewed her. Jesslyn Cook. She wrote a book called the Quiet Damage about families and QAnon. She followed, like, five families and. And people got into QAnon, and she talked about why and how. And basically, not to spoil her entire book, but, like, the point of her book was that people needed connection and they needed something to do. And QAnon, because of the Q drops, where it's like, figure this out, figure that out. Go on the message boards, talk about what you think it is, what you built a community. So when everyone decided that because Donald Trump won the presidency, they weren't going to talk to any of their family members who ever considered voting for him, all those people became isolated and they turned online and found QAnon and found those spaces. So this person's aunt, she is not a QAnon fan or a BTS fan or whatever, or a K pop fan. She just wants friends. And, like, if you can offer someone friends and a chat room, you could. You could get them to be clients, climate scientists. You could get them to be in QAnon. You could get them to solve world hunger. Like, it has nothing to do with the thing. Yeah, it has so much to do with everything around the thing.

[Jie Kwon]

Agreed. Yeah. And I think that goes back to what you were saying about fandom earlier. Yeah, it's a connection. Yeah. It's about community and, like, bonding over something. And it doesn't really matter what the something is. It just matters if you find the.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right people in there.

[Jie Kwon]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because, I mean, actually, I think that's something that you were saying. I did not say that you said that, smarty. Congratulations. Thank you for giving me credit, but I'm pretty sure you said that. I mean, I think that's interesting because that draws me to another thing you talk about in the book, which of course warms my heart, is bookstagram. You talked about the bookstagram community and the online reader community, and I feel that so much. I feel like I like books. I don't know if I would like books as much as I like books if there wasn't so many people online for me to talk to. And, like, if I didn't have an outlet to have the conversations that I get to have and to build the relationships. And I certainly wouldn't read many of the things that I have read in the last seven years now. I mean, like, if I'm being frank, I never would have picked up your book if I didn't get into the reader community. You know, like, it's like, I don't. Why would I think that I would be curious about something that I know nothing about? Like, why would I? And so I do. I do think in those ways these things can form empathy or at least, like, enlarge our worldview. But also, again, I don't. I. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, because there are people who will read books or listen to music and will still be awful people.

[Jie Kwon]

Right? Yeah. But then you also see the people who only read within their bubble, which we've talked about a lot on Bookstagram, especially over the last few years.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Jie Kwon]

I feel like that is kind of more of what I was thinking of.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jie Kwon]

Where it's like, yeah, sure, you can read, but if you're only reading within your little echo chamber, you're actually never going to have that, like, expansive experience. You're never going to be challenged in the way that you think, because you're just reading the same. I can't even think of an example. But, you know, if you're just reading.

[Tracy Thomas]

Examples, I won't say them. Do you think to extend this analogy back to K Pop, are you thinking of people then who just listen to the music but, like, don't have relationships with, like, like, how. How does that analogy work back towards K Pop?

[Jie Kwon]

I think if we're gonna. If we wanted to loop this back to the issue of racism in K pop, I think you'd see a lot of racism in K Pop.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

Like, within the fandom. I'm not even talking industry. I'm not talking about, like, things id, which is its own issue. But when I was thinking about this whole idea of, like, maybe music isn't as universal as we think, it's kind of like, you have a lot of K Pop fans in the west who say they love K pop now. They get into, like, Korean food, they want to learn Korean. But do they see other Koreans as human? Do they see other people of color as human? And you do see a lot of it. Again, kind of with like, when black fans are pointing out, like, oh, that hairstyle is appropriative. This music style is appropriative. Maybe this is an issue that, like, you know, this company took from black culture without actually understanding where it comes from or even, like, recognizing that this is not something for them to take. So it's like, when fans point that out, there can be a lot of, like, oh, why are you, like, in this? Like, who cares? It's just music. Like, don't. Like, why are you, like, picking fights?

[Tracy Thomas]

Right?

[Jie Kwon]

So I think kind of similar to that, like, they could be super into K pop. They could know everything about these artists. But there still is that disconnect between, oh, I like this thing from a different culture, but I still don't see people of color as human beings equal to me. So it's kind of that disconnect that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. Yeah, no, totally. That makes so much sense. Another big thing that comes up in the book is your relationship to your body and body shaming that you felt and feel, or have felt, I should say, from other Korean people and sort of, like, grappling with that. And I'm curious less about sort of the. Because you write really beautifully about the actual experiences and more about what it was like for you to put these stories on the page. Like, was that. Was. Was that challenging for you? Was that the most challenging part of this book? If not, what was?

[Jie Kwon]

I think I would say I hate the word journey, but I'm gonna okay the word journey. I guess my journey coming out of body shaming, it's been over 10 years. And so I think having kind of that distance of doing a lot of processing of even, like, confronting my community and being like this, like, essentially kind of like, you did this to me and then kind of having a mutual. I fought a lot with a lot of people and just kind of mutually being able to, like, grow from that and, like, acknowledge what was done and kind of, like, process and move on. Not so much move on, because you do live with it. Like, I live with the constantly. One of the side effects, I guess, of, like, my two book events has been like, oh, I hate seeing photos of myself. I hate it. Like, it brings it all back because.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm just like, well, those, like, stupid stools that they sit you on. Art couldn't be less flattering. Okay. I had to learn about that, too. When I started doing book events, especially. You did one at Skylight. Those chairs are hell. You look at pictures of me in them now. I'm always like, basically standing up, like, trying to, like, act smart there. Those are particularly awful. So, you know, not to negate your feelings of your body, but also just know nobody looks good in those skylight chairs.

[Jie Kwon]

That's true. Especially because everyone sitted lower.

[Tracy Thomas]

So, yeah, it's horrible. And then there's, like, a tree in the middle, like, kind of like. It's just. It's. It's not great for photos.

[Jie Kwon]

Sorry.

[Tracy Thomas]

Skylight. We love you, but we love you.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe you're the title.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

How did you come up with it? Was that always the title? And if not, what other working titles did you have?

[Jie Kwon]

It was always the title, but I went into it. I think I've been trained that editors come up with titles. So I have tried not to get too wedded to my titles, but I needed a title for the proposal, and I came up with I'll love you forever. Because the Korean word for forever is. And you heard it a lot in, like, early generation K pop songs. Like, H O T has a song where they sing the word. Like, Young Won Hee. Like, you saw it everywhere. And so when I was thinking about this, I was like, well, it did start with hot, and it's gone on for 30 years. And. Yeah, got it. Let's kind of tap into that. And, yeah, they kept it.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's such a good title. It's just. I feel like it really speaks to, like, that feeling of family. Yeah. If this book, let's say, like, were to get translated into Korean, do you have thoughts and feelings about, like, what that might be like for you because you are Korean, but you're Korean American. And I know there is, you know, some friction sometimes between whatever Americans and people who are from, like, the homeland. So how are you feeling or thinking if this does get translated into Korean and having the book out there in that way?

[Jie Kwon]

Part of me would love it, but I think the greater part of me is terrified.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jie Kwon]

Part of me kind of does live in fear of a fandom, specifically army.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jie Kwon]

And I think of just waiting for someone to be like, you're wrong. You got everything wrong. Especially when it comes to, like, history and, like, politics. But my dad hasn't read the whole thing, but he did read some of it, and he hasn't said, my history is wrong. Okay. This is good liberal, so. But, yes, I live in here.

[Tracy Thomas]

Raised in a very conservative Christian family, a conservative Christian church. So, I mean, we can take that criticism with a grain of salt, I feel.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes. Again, I was like, you didn't say I'm wrong. As long as I'm not wrong.

[Tracy Thomas]

As long as the facts are okay. The interpretation that's up to me. Yes. How did you make time to write this book? And how do you write how many hours a day, how often music, snacks and beverages, rituals, talk about it.

[Jie Kwon]

So I was working full time when I wrote this book, so a lot of just. I don't have a routine. I'm very. I will write when I can, when I'm not too tired. I'm a big fan of Google Docs on my phone, especially when I'm in New York, because I feel like that's best for drafting. I struggle the most with first drafts. So once I can get a first draft on the page, which I like revising a lot, but always listen to music. Like, I'm not a fan of silence.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is it. Are you listening to K Pop or is that too usually K Pop?

[Jie Kwon]

I think if I listen to songs in English, sometimes it's a little too distracting because English is my primary language. So sometimes I'll just like hook onto the lyrics too much so I can't actually focus. But usually K Pop, sometimes orchestral Vivaldi. Sometimes Vivaldi. Always coffee. Always. Right. Always water. Black coffee.

[Tracy Thomas]

How do you take it?

[Jie Kwon]

I always drink coffee with half and half, which I felt kind of embarrassed about because people are always like, if you're a serious coffee drinker, you're supposed to drink it black. But Julia Tershin drinks her coffee with half and half.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I drink my tea with half and half. So I don't. If you're a serious coffee drinker and you only drink your coffee black, you're not a serious coffee drinker because you've never explored the world.

[Jie Kwon]

That's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, you just have one coffee. You're not serious. I don't drink coffee at all, so I don't know. But I like half and half a lot. Creamy and tasty.

[Jie Kwon]

I agree. I like the fat and the sweetness.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. What about snacks?

[Jie Kwon]

You know, for a long time I try to build an identity for myself as a snacker, and it's like the last year that I had to admit that I go through phases. Like, sometimes I'll really want a snack, but I'm not actually the biggest snack.

[Tracy Thomas]

You don't like to snack? You're a meal person?

[Jie Kwon]

I guess.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jie Kwon]

But like, I guess I do usually like to have some chocolate. Like, I like the cease. You know how they have the little morsels? You can buy little morsels at seas. They're like baking. Baking chips.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, like baking chips.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. So I'll eat those. And I only like milk chocolate. I don't like dark chocolate.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't like dark chocolate either. If you half and half, you don't like dark chocolate, I think that's safe to say.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes. Yes. So I'll keep some chocolate, but. And right now I'm, like, really into, like, Cheetos. Like the regular orange Cheetos.

[Tracy Thomas]

Orange Cheetos. So are my five year olds.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. I used to be all about the.

[Tracy Thomas]

Hot Cheetos, but I can't do spicy. I cannot do hot Cheeto.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cheeto is not my favorite. I'm definitely more of, like a potato chip, like a kettle chip.

[Jie Kwon]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Person like that, just salty chip. If I'm gonna chip, I'm like, I had a Dorito for the first time in, like, I don't know, a decade at, like, a kid's birthday party. I haven't had one in forever, and it was good. But if I'm gonna do, like, a chip like that, like, from that, like, variety pack, I think I'm gonna go Frito.

[Jie Kwon]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I like. It's not really. I don't. I talk a lot about snacks here, but not. Not chips so much. But yes. And I'm gonna. You know that, like, Frito Lays variety pack.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's like Cool Ranch, regular Dorito, Frito Lay, and Cheeto. I think I'm gonna go Frito from that.

[Jie Kwon]

Oh, I would go Cheeto because my favorite. The only Doritos I eat are spicy nachos. Oh, those are the best. Yeah, those don't come in the best.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's like. It's. Oh, that's, like, really too special.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah. Sometimes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

All I eat for dinner is spicy nacho, Doritos, and Diet Coke.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God. That's what we have to talk about that. I. I literally have it on the list. I can't believe. I can't believe I almost forgot to talk about it. There's no Diet Coke in Korea.

[Jie Kwon]

There's no Diet Coke in Korea. It's Coke Zero.

[Tracy Thomas]

What the.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, that's what I said.

[Tracy Thomas]

What?

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, I think it's the aspartame, which.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hesitated over because isn't that what you call aspartame?

[Jie Kwon]

I don't know. I think I pronounce it at aspartame.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know. I think it's aspartame. But I honestly, like, I made that up when I was, like, 10 and it was in the news a lot. I see that ingredient.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's like, pretty sure or whatever.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's sad.

[Tracy Thomas]

In South American countries, they don't technically have Diet Coke. They have Coca Light.

[Jie Kwon]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

But it tastes more like Diet Coke than Coke Zero.

[Jie Kwon]

Interesting.

[Tracy Thomas]

So it. It is. I think it's a kind of like an equal or superior Diet Coke. It has the same, like, Diet Coke look, but it's Coca Light.

[Jie Kwon]

Uhhuh.

[Tracy Thomas]

And maybe it's for similar reasons, but not having Diet Coke.

[Jie Kwon]

I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

They gotta come up with a Korean workaround for the aspartame. They gotta come up with something. Oh, my God. Korea is doing so much for skin care, for music, for soft power, for drama, for, like. But how can we watch films? How could we go to the theater and see Parasite without a Diet Coke with our popcorn? Like, I don't.

[Jie Kwon]

I don't straight Coke Zero.

[Tracy Thomas]

There's no. It's not a workaround. It's not. Like, sometimes people will come on this podcast and talk about Pepsi, and I'm just like, no. And that's the same thing to me. It's telling me you don't have Diet Coke. Is telling me you like Diet Pepsi.

[Jie Kwon]

No, no, no, no. Oh, it was.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, like, had to stop the audiobook and be like, let me take a note about this fucking.

[Jie Kwon]

I know. I had a cave. And I. I got a Coke Zero when I was in Korea. And it's also. Their cans tend to be the. The skinnier ones.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Jie Kwon]

Even drink half of it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because I don't even hate Coke Zero. Like, I will drink Coke Zero sometimes, but if there's an option between Diet Coke and Coke Zero, it's pretty much always Diet Coke.

[Jie Kwon]

Yeah, see, I started with Coke Zero. Actually, I was all about Coke Zero, probably around like 2020. And then they reformulated Coke Zero.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, wait, so you're new to Diet Coke in the last five years?

[Jie Kwon]

Kind of. Yeah. I wasn't the biggest, like, soda drinker, but then for some reason, I got really into Coke Zero. And then the first year of lockdown, that first Christmas, I went to spend it with my family in Baltimore, and they're all Diet Coke. So I started drinking Diet Coke and then Coke Zero reformulated. And I think the new Coke Zero is terrible. It's garbage.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wow. Interesting. Okay, my Diet Coke origin story, nobody asked, but I'm going to tell you is I used to drink only regular Coke. And then I went to college, and a girl friend of mine who lived on my floor freshman year, Mary. Shout out to Mary. She's still my friend. She was, like, obsessed With Diet Coke. And she would drink, like, six Diet Cokes a day, like, so much Diet Coke. And so I started this thing where I was like, mary, you can't drink that much Diet Coke. I'm taking a Diet Coke tax. So every time she would open a Diet Coke, I would, like, have a sip of it. And then I, like, got into Diet Coke because of, like, stealing her Diet Coke. And that first summer after freshman year of college, she came to visit me in California, and I was, like, drinking Diet Coke, and she was like, what the. I was like, I don't know. And for the last, like, 20 years, I've had Diet Coke, like, almost every day. I don't drink six a day. I. Max, I drink two if I'm having, like, a dinner with, like, burger and French fries and, like, a. Can you. Kind of. Two cans. Yeah. But, yes, my origin story is I was, like, trying to be the police, and then I became, like. And then I really became the police because I became corrupt. And it was awesome.

[Jie Kwon]

That's amazing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's so weird.

[Jie Kwon]

Oh, that reminds me. I need to order Diet Coke. I'm out of Diet Coke.

[Tracy Thomas]

You need Diet Coke. Everybody needs Diet Coke. Everyone. That's your reminder. Go get some Diet Coke.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. What's the word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

[Jie Kwon]

Pennsylvania.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, you were ready.

[Jie Kwon]

I love this.

[Tracy Thomas]

How often do you have to write Pennsylvania?

[Jie Kwon]

Surprisingly, more often because I'm in law school, so when we write scenes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, wait, you went back to law school?

[Jie Kwon]

Yes, I. Yes. I. I forgot.

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't know that.

[Jie Kwon]

Good for you. I don't know. We'll see if it's good for me or not.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, we'll see. I mean, you can always quit. You know, this.

[Jie Kwon]

This is true. But now I'm in debt, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, okay. Okay, let's finish. Let's get you.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes, but. Yes. Pennsylvania.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, Pennsylvania. We'll work on that. For people who love, I'll love you forever. What are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with your work?

[Jie Kwon]

I really liked. For a novel, I really liked Hannah Michelle's Excavations because she kind of compresses 19th century Korean history into a very readable novel.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is that the pink and red one?

[Jie Kwon]

Yes, it's the one that's based off an actual event in Korea where I think it was 95. The department store collapsed. So it's based off that. That was great. For nonfiction, I really liked Hawon Chung's Flowers of Fire, which is about the MeToo movement, which hit Korea, which I was very surprised by because it's a very patriarchal society. But there were pretty big impacts, actually, from that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, those are great wrecks. What do you hope people will keep in mind as they read your book?

[Jie Kwon]

I love K Pop. I try to give K Pop a very fair shake in the book. I think if you love something, you should be able to be critical of it. But I hope that that is something that people take away, that it's this big industry. It comes from something bigger than what it is. And, yeah, it's got issues. It's not perfect. Nothing's perfect, but it's a lot of fun. I love K Pop.

[Tracy Thomas]

Last one. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

[Jie Kwon]

I have been really trying to come up with a way to get Tableau from Epikai to read this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, can we send it to them?

[Jie Kwon]

I don't know. I've been trying to. I've been trying to figure this out.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, if people are sending food to people's homes and going to the gym, I feel like we could just walk in. I don't know. Well, hire someone who does it. I feel like we make this happen, like, tomorrow. It sounds like they're very accessible. Got to get things done. We got to tap for. When you become a lawyer, you're going to have to really tap into this. You got to get things done. You find an intern, you send them with the book, you deliver it with a bottle of Diet Coke, and you say, drink this.

[Jie Kwon]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Read this. You'll be changed.

[Jie Kwon]

That's a good point. The Diet Coke is very important because.

[Tracy Thomas]

That'S very valuable in Korea because you can't get them anymore in your luggage.

[Jie Kwon]

I know. I'm trying to move to Korea, like, temporarily for like, a year or two. And that is legitimately the thing that makes me pause. I'm like, am I supposed to go a year or two without Diet Coke? How am I going to survive?

[Tracy Thomas]

You can't do it. You can't move. It's not safe for you. You won't be. Okay. Like, I don't. Everything else might be great, but. Right. It's probably not the best idea. Oh, my gosh. Well, this was amazing. Everybody, you can get your copy of I'll love you forever Notes from a K Pop fan. Wherever you get your books. Audiobook is great. Physical book is great. Ga thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks.

[Jie Kwon]

Foreign.

[Tracy Thomas]

Y'All. That does it for us today. Thank you so much to GA for being my guest, and I'd also like to say a big thank you to Clarissa Long and Amber Cheroketti for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember, our book club pick this month is Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton, which we will discuss on Wednesday, April 30th with Tiana Clark. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and Tik Tok and check out our website@the stacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian D, with production assistance distance from Megan Caballero and Waikia Frielo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirichis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.