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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance and far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery us that's audible.com wondery us.
- [00:50]
Kara Brown
The medium in which someone chooses to create something is important. And sometimes a play is not a good movie. Sometimes it is. But. But sometimes a book is not a good TV show or whatever. You know, to me, the example I always think of is the Great Gatsby, which on the page stunning, like the prose is amazing. That story is not a good story. That's why it's not very good when you adapt it. And I actually think not always, but oftentimes. I think for me, I think kind of the quote unquote worse the book is, the more interested I am in adapting it.
- [01:33]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and today I am beyond thrilled to welcome to the podcast Kara Brown. Kara is a writer and producer. You might have seen her work on she Hulk, the Other Black Girl or Grownish. And today Kara and I talk about how she became a hardcore reader, what she looks for when adapting books to screen, and the book she was assigned three times in school but still deeply hate. Don't forget our book club pick for May is Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. Cara Brown will be back to discuss that book with me on Wednesday, May 28, so be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, if you want perks like bonus episodes or even more hot takes from me, you can support the show by going to patreon.com the stacks and joining the Stacks Pack or subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com All right, now it is time for my conversation with Kara Brown. Okay party people, I'm so excited. Very often, not very often, sometimes I talk about this list that I made when I start before I ever recorded an episode of the podcast. And it was a dream guest list, and it includes people like Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, John Krocauer, one of my favorite authors. And it also includes today's guest, Kara Brown. I became a fan of Kara Brown from Keep it. And I just sort of always was like, she seems really cool. And so I met her at a party. Well, actually, I walked up to her at a party and said, you're on my dream list. Come on my podcast. So, ladies and gentlemen, I am thrilled to introduce to you on the sax, finally, after seven years, Kara Brown.
- [03:29]
Kara Brown
Oh, well, I mean, I love to be squeezed in between Barack Obama and Oprah. I'll take it.
- [03:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's definitely high praise. I mean, and, like, let's be really real. I asked you one time to come on the show, and you said yes. And so my hope is that that means that your friends, Barack and Oprah will all, like, I haven't shot my shot yet with any of you.
- [03:51]
Kara Brown
You know what? I will. I will get them. I will hit our text thread right after this, and I'll let them know how it goes.
- [03:58]
Tracy Thomas
You'll be like, hey, Barry. Hey.
- [04:01]
Kara Brown
Hey, guys.
- [04:02]
Tracy Thomas
Can you guys do me this solid?
- [04:03]
Kara Brown
We'll talk about it in brunch. You know, our regular brunch. We'll talk about it then next time.
- [04:08]
Tracy Thomas
I see. Yes. Well, we met at the blacklist brunch, and when I first met Franklin Leonard, who has done this podcast, I was telling him that. That Oprah was a dream guest, and he was like, oh, well, next time I see her. And I was like, I'll die.
- [04:21]
Kara Brown
You know what's funny, too, about Franklin? He manages to do that, and it doesn't. He doesn't sound like an asshole. Like, somehow it.
- [04:31]
Tracy Thomas
Like, it totally works.
- [04:33]
Kara Brown
I don't know if it's his tone. I don't know if it's his voice. Like. And I. You know, he is trying to be helpful. Yeah. But I'm like, yeah, he's one of the few people who can do that. And I'm not. Like, my eyes are not popping out of my head.
- [04:45]
Tracy Thomas
Well, I'm also just like, oh, if you've got it like that with Oprah, I don't care. I want you to tell me, because if I ever had it like that with Oprah, I would be telling every. I'd be like, oh, next time I see, next time I go to Montecito, like, we'll check in. I'll See? Yeah, I'll see what I can do, you know, that's for sure. Okay, enough about Oprah, our bestie. Let's talk about you. So I always kind of have people introduce themselves. I don't, you don't need to do like a big professional thing, but can you tell us like a little bit where you're from, a little professional, maybe like your relationship to books? Just give us a little sprinkling.
- [05:18]
Kara Brown
Yes. So I grew up in Seattle, though I do have a very fun story that I will tell you about me and reading. So until I was seven, we lived in Dallas, Texas and I went to this school and I was in the first grade and my class had two reading groups. So it was an all girls school. That class had two reading groups. And one day I notice that one group is reading like flimsy kind of thin paperback books and the other group is reading these like bigger hardback books that were clearly more advanced. I was in the flimsy paperback book reading group and my parents were like, yeah, you came home pissed. Like, I figured, I'm like, you know, six. And I was like, oh, these people think I'm dumb. Like, I can, I can read. And so I started reading constantly. And I do remember this. Like I was staying up late and I was reading like when my, my dad used to drive me to school at that time, I would read the whole car ride to just like constantly, constantly. And then I bumped myself up to the higher reading group.
- [06:24]
Tracy Thomas
So you're like a professional competitive reader and have been training for this your whole life.
- [06:29]
Kara Brown
Here's the thing. I am motivated by spite.
- [06:33]
Tracy Thomas
So, okay, me too.
- [06:34]
Kara Brown
And I am like, I can lock in. So the worst thing you can do to me is like, make me pay attention to something. You know, like there's a lot of stuff I'm just not really paying attention to because I have other things to worry about. And then when I figure it out, that's what you don't want. Because when all of my attention is now on something, I'm like, oh, it's a wrap. I'm like, I'm done. So, yeah, I just spite read myself up a reading group and have been a reader since then.
- [07:00]
Tracy Thomas
And you still like reading. It wasn't like you did this then. You were like, no more books ever again.
- [07:04]
Kara Brown
No, I think I was like, I like to read and I didn't clock that. Like they were keeping track of it, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't clock what was.
- [07:12]
Tracy Thomas
You didn't realize that there was Some sort of analysis going on. And that's how you got placed in the flimsy group?
- [07:17]
Kara Brown
Yes, yes, got it.
- [07:19]
Tracy Thomas
Are you still friends with any of those people from that class?
- [07:22]
Kara Brown
I. There's a couple I kind of know because that's from our like Dallas era and we7, so I don't know that they would remember, but my, my dad specifically really remembers because he was like in the car with me every morning as I was reading.
- [07:39]
Tracy Thomas
Was he inspired by this or is it like a joke? Kara's so intense. Like, what's the sort of read in the internal community of your family?
- [07:48]
Kara Brown
I think they were. Sounds like Cara. They were like, that's.
- [07:52]
Tracy Thomas
And when's your birthday? What's your sign?
- [07:54]
Kara Brown
I'm a Scorpio, so.
- [07:56]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so does this track. I don't know a lot about Scorpio.
- [07:58]
Kara Brown
I. I'm not a big astrology person, so I think I am competitive. And I think it's also, it's like, oh, they think I'm dumb. I think that's how I interpreted it. And so I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. Like, just because I haven't shown you. Just because I'm not trying to.
- [08:16]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [08:16]
Kara Brown
So off for everyone. So, yeah, I think it is very much in line with my character. Yeah. So then I love this story. Yeah, yeah, so that's. There's that story. Yeah. So then after, I mostly grew up in Seattle, I. I was always, you know, I was then always a big reader. I loved English. So when I went to college, I was an English major, which, you know, is just. Just like paying all of that money to make someone make you read. Right.
- [08:47]
Tracy Thomas
Wait, where did you go to college?
- [08:48]
Kara Brown
I went to Tufts.
- [08:49]
Tracy Thomas
Oh. That's where my sister in law, she's a professor there.
- [08:52]
Kara Brown
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Out in Medford.
- [08:56]
Tracy Thomas
Elephant.
- [08:57]
Kara Brown
Yes. The jumbo. Yes. Oh my gosh. I was, I was a tour guide, so I know all about the jumbo.
- [09:04]
Tracy Thomas
That's so funny. Okay, so you were an English major there. Was it. When you were an English major, was there like a focus or is it just broad? You know, some people have focus.
- [09:15]
Kara Brown
Yeah, I was kind of general and I would say the mo. It was most helpful or not. So obviously. Right. Like as an English major, you're. You're reading a lot, but you're writing a lot. And.
- [09:28]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [09:28]
Kara Brown
I discovered pretty early in my college career that I could write an essay like the night before and get like an A minus or a B plus. And I was like, oh, so then it really did not incentivize me to, like, start writing, but it's really. I mean, I was a good.
- [09:46]
Tracy Thomas
Your teacher should have been like, kara, you're dumb. And then you would have been like, oh, really?
- [09:50]
Kara Brown
Yeah, exactly. I would have.
- [09:51]
Tracy Thomas
I'll be writing this for the next six months.
- [09:54]
Kara Brown
But I was a good writer in high school. And so I think then when I got to college, I was like, oh, I'm a good writer. Like, I figured that out. That, like, I could write well.
- [10:04]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [10:05]
Kara Brown
Which was, like, good to know. But then I tended to just, like, I tended to do a lot of real procrastinating with, like, that work. But it was helpful because I was like, okay, this is a thing that. This is a skill I have that isn't necessarily, like, it's not so difficult for me to write something well.
- [10:26]
Tracy Thomas
And you're a professional writer now. You're a TV writer and film and TV writer.
- [10:30]
Kara Brown
Yes, yes.
- [10:32]
Tracy Thomas
And how does that compare? Does that feel, like, easy? Not easy, but does that still. Does it still feel like the same kind of writing muscle, or does it feel different than the college writing muscle that you recognized in yourself?
- [10:46]
Kara Brown
Well, all writing is a nightmare. So there's.
- [10:49]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, I agree with you about that. I think writing is a curse. And I can't believe people do it. I do it for money, barely. And I hate every second of it. The thought of making my whole life right.
- [11:00]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [11:01]
Tracy Thomas
Insane.
- [11:02]
Kara Brown
It is. I mean, I always say this. I mean, it's not just me, but the best part about writing is having written.
- [11:08]
Tracy Thomas
That's that I've heard that I don't even agree about. I. Having written is one of the worst parts, because then other people have to read it. And then you have to worry about other people reading and being like, oh, I'm an idiot, and other people now have it in print.
- [11:20]
Kara Brown
Well, that's assuming you don't think your writing is bad. You know, I guess, like, there's.
- [11:24]
Tracy Thomas
That's true.
- [11:25]
Kara Brown
But I would say, like, my. So after college, I worked in PR for a while, and then I eventually, in, like, kind of a roundabout way, ended up writing for the Internet. So I wrote for Jezebel for three or four years. And I would say that writing. It's not necessarily the same as screenwriting at all. But what was very helpful was that era, the Internet, you had to write a lot, and you had to take a point of view very quickly. You know what I mean? So, like, that was the thing, like, we would be quote, unquote, covering news. But it's like, you know, the New York Times broke a story, and then we would put our kind of Jezebel spin on it. So you had to very quickly decide, like, what's my angle in that's going to be like, we're all talking about the same thing, but I'm coming at it from a slightly different way. So I learned to do that very quickly. And then you just learned to write really fast. And so to this day, I'm a very quick writer. It's something that even, like, my manager or my agents will, like, you know, tell people. And I. And I can get scripts done really quickly when I'm. When I'm focus or, like, when I need to. And that is because I was in this era. That, for me, is because of the Internet writing.
- [12:36]
Tracy Thomas
Interesting. I have a question about being a very online person in that era, because that was like. Like Earl. Like 2010s, like, early 2000s. And now you're not really an online person at all.
- [12:50]
Kara Brown
Got sick of it.
- [12:51]
Tracy Thomas
So what happened? Yeah, what happened? How did you make the shift? How were you. Because, like, part of being an online person in that time was, like, that's how you were making your money. You had to be online. And so what happened for you? How did it shift? How did you. How did you get free of the Internet?
- [13:05]
Kara Brown
I mean, that version of the Internet was way more fun. Let's just start there. Like, you. There were, like, not. Twitter wasn't full of Nazis. And, like, it was. It was a lot more sort of egalitarian. You could, like, tweet with, like, celebrities, and it wasn't like, you know what I mean? You could just have. It just felt like. It felt more earnest. It felt pure. It was more fun. You were sharing things that, like, people would see. Like, I feel like sometimes now it can feel like an echo. Like you're just sending things off into the abyss.
- [13:38]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [13:39]
Kara Brown
And before, like, you could. I remember, like, having articles at Jezebel, and, you know, I publish it. We publish it, and then someone else would read it and tweet about it. And then someone else was retweeting that, and they're adding it, and all of a sudden it's, like, everywhere. So it was just more fun. And I think. But I think more than. So I think I got a little bit tired of the Internet. I was. I was super online for a long time.
- [14:01]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [14:02]
Kara Brown
And, you know, because, like, when we were at Jezebel, it's just like, Twitter is up all day. Like, all day in part because you're keeping up with the news. But it's just like, you were seeing everything. You're reading, like, all of the big sites at the time. You're just reading, like, every article. Like, it's just. There was. You were. We were super online. And I think now, one, I do not find Internet usage to be productive for my writing in this. In the same way. Like, I don't. It's not. I actually now have it blocked during the day. That's probably also why everyone sees me online less. Like, I. Yeah, I have Twitter and Instagram and TikTok blocked from like, nine to five. And honestly, once I started working in Hollywood, you know, like, I talk a lot. Like, that's what keep. It was about pop culture. I was finding that maybe I didn't need to be running my mouth about pop culture every day because, oh, maybe I'm like, I've seen a movie and I hated it. And I'm like, that movie stopped. And then I have a meeting with that producer or, you know, like, this actor that, like, I didn't like in that thing, but I want them in something else. And so that is. That's a big part of it where I was like, I don't really need to be speaking in public that often and maybe shooting myself in the foot because I just, you know. Because you're just kind of like saying. Because it's. It's like.
- [15:23]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [15:23]
Kara Brown
It's on the Internet.
- [15:24]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Right. Okay, that makes sense. Okay. I want to talk about screenwriting a little bit, because you worked on the Other Black Girl, which for people who don't know, but I think most people here do know. It was a book. It was a really popular book, and they adapted it into a show. And so I want to just. I want to ask you about that process of, like, when you're reading a book for adaptation and, like, you, you know, you're going to be working on the script, what are you looking for? What are you trying to keep, like, pure from the book? And what are you. Like, this has to go, or, like, this isn't useful, or this won't work on the screen. How are you thinking about those sorts of things?
- [16:02]
Kara Brown
So for some. For tv, right. So it's not just me. So it's our. It's like Rashida Jones produced it, and then Jordan Redout and Gus Hickey were the showrunners, and we have a room of writers, so it's all of us. And so some of that is the showrunner's vision. Some of it is also the Network, like, do they want you to lean more into the book or do they really just like the concept of the book and they want you to take it off the list?
- [16:32]
Tracy Thomas
And they say that they'll be like, we just really like the concept. Like, do your thing.
- [16:36]
Kara Brown
They'll tell you in, like, unclear, roundabout ways. Like, you'll then, you know, I mean, I think sometimes they'll be very clear. But like, with that show, we sort of learned later in the process that, like, oh, they actually were interested in. Very much interested in like the actions of the book and not necessarily like there had been sort of an earlier leadership and we were going in a different direction. Like, absolutely was still the other black girl was still the greediest. It was still all that stuff, but it was just going a little different. And then we heard that they would have. They wanted us to sort of get more into what was in the book. So that sometimes is like a little dictated. The interesting thing is, in terms of, like, my own work, I've been having this love hate thing with books and adaptations talk about it because I, I very much resent right now what's happening is like, I'm very resentful of this idea that, like, only IP does well or is worth, you know, doing anything with. Like, I still love original ideas. I think also the medium in which someone chooses to create something is important. And sometimes a play is not a good movie. Sometimes it is. But sometimes a book is not a good TV show or whatever. You know, to me, the example I always think of is the Great Gatsby, which on the page, stunning, like, like the prose is. Is amazing. That story is not a good story. Like, the plot of that book is kind of like, it's kind of boring. It's boring. It's like you forget like that car crash at the. It's just like, it's not that good of a story. The book is good because the writing is unbelievable. And so every time they try to adapt that, it's not that good. It's not that good because I think they're.
- [18:23]
Tracy Thomas
They keep trying.
- [18:24]
Kara Brown
They keep trying and it's like, oh, it's because the story is not that good. That's why, that's why it's not very good when you adapt it. So I've been very. I've been like, I go to all these meetings and they're always like, we're going to send you. Because, you know, people know producers and everyone, they know that I read. So they'll do a lot of like, oh, like, we Got books. And so I'm very particular. And I actually think not always, but oftentimes I think for me, I think kind of the quote unquote, worse the book is, the more interested I am in adapting it.
- [18:55]
Tracy Thomas
Kara, this is what I have been saying for years.
- [18:58]
Kara Brown
Oh.
- [18:59]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, thank fucking. Thank you. Okay. I talk about this all the time, and people are always, like, kind of glaze over. A bad book makes for a better adaptation because a. You have room to move around with it. If you adapt a book that everybody loves, you can only fail you. The best you can do is meet the book. You could never make a better thing from a great thing. And that was my feeling about. And I have a lot of thoughts. Did you see Nickel Boys?
- [19:26]
Kara Brown
It did.
- [19:27]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so I had complicated feelings about that because I thought the movie was, like, fine and good, and I thought the cinematography was great. But I feel like that book is written for the written word because one of the big tricks of the book. And this is sort of a spoiler, but we did this on book club last year. This is a book we did with Franklin.
- [19:42]
Kara Brown
Okay.
- [19:42]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. But one of the big tricks of the book is what Colson Whitehead wants you to know and see and when he wants you to see it. And if you literally see David Diggs hand in, you know, act one, you kind of know. Yeah, like, you kind of gave away the whole thing. And so I. But also that that book is just so good, and it's so intimate and, like, it's such a personal read that being in a room with other people or, like, seeing it outside of your brain, it just doesn't serve the actual thing. I think that movie was still really good, but I don't think they needed to adapt it. I don't think that it added value, like, to the story. And I'm such a firm believer. The worst the thing is the like. Did you see the blackkklansman?
- [20:25]
Kara Brown
I didn't even realize the movie. I didn't even realize, oh, it was his memoir. Right.
- [20:29]
Tracy Thomas
It is so bad. The book is so bad. And I think the movie's fine.
- [20:33]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [20:34]
Tracy Thomas
But the movie is a thousand times better than the book. And that's always the example I give where I'm like. Because people are always like, oh, the book's always better. I'm like, no, it's not. You just don't know the book when the movie's better.
- [20:44]
Kara Brown
Well, that's the other thing. There are a lot of books. There are a lot of movies that people don't realize were books like, actually, you know, a movie I loved when I was younger was Catch Me if youf Can. Like Tom Hanks, Leo DiCaprio, Steven Spielberg. And Frank.
- [20:59]
Tracy Thomas
Frank something is the character Franklin.
- [21:01]
Kara Brown
No, Frank Landau is. That is a character. And someone's going to hear this and know that that's from like a TV show. And it's all getting. But I remember then I went back and read. I'm like 16 or something. Right. And I went back and like read his memoir and I was like, oh, that the. I liked the movie better.
- [21:18]
Tracy Thomas
Frank Abigail.
- [21:19]
Kara Brown
Junior.
- [21:22]
Tracy Thomas
Abagnale Abigail. And the memoir was just like whatever it was.
- [21:27]
Kara Brown
But yeah, but I. But yes. So I think general. So I'm very kind of persnickety about when I get. And something that is. Maybe now it's sort of based off of a couple experiences not speaking about the other black girl. But for me, with other projects, I prefer when the author is not super involved.
- [21:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [21:50]
Kara Brown
Because what needs to happen to a book to turn it into a movie? Maybe the author doesn't like. And also, they've never adapted something if they've never written a movie, if they've never written a TV show, they don't understand what needs to happen for something to be a TV show. Especially with tv. What you have to set up when you're developing a show to, in theory continue this for season after season is like. It's not like an unknowable skill, but you have to have done it before. Like, I've been in many TV rooms, so I understand what needs to happen in a pilot, in a TV show for this to continue. If you've never done that, you don't necessarily know. And so then maybe you're getting pushback. There was a project I was developing. I'm getting pushback from the author. And I'm like, okay, but you don't.
- [22:37]
Tracy Thomas
But you don't understand how.
- [22:38]
Kara Brown
You don't understand how to.
- [22:39]
Tracy Thomas
This isn't your medium. Yes.
- [22:41]
Kara Brown
So I am. So I'm definitely like. Like, there's a project I'm working on right now that is a someone's memoir. And the subject is not super, super involved, like Day to Day and also her story. Like, I just really run with it. Like, it's like, right. I. The conceit is so cool and. And really fun. And then I'm like, okay, I have to change a lot of stuff to make this the type of show that people are going to want to watch. And luckily, like the producers, everyone, we're all on board with that. So Those are, for me, with adaptation, that's generally. Those are the parameters I need. And I'm also super uninterested in adapting books that I loved.
- [23:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [23:24]
Kara Brown
Because I'm like, why would I want to seeing.
- [23:27]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I don't want to see it. Like, I get annoyed. To me, the sort of, like, perfect. The perfect balance for book to screen adaptation is something that I've heard is good, that I would never read, but also the thing that's coming out I've heard is good. So, like, I'm thinking in my mind, conclave. I read it, and then I saw it. I never would have read Conclave. I don't fucking care about Conclave. Obviously. Now I am locked in RIP Pope Francis. But I am like, let's fudge, go. But I like the movie, and I like the book, and I had a great time with both, but neither of those things were like, I'm dying to see this, or, I'm dying to read this. And I feel like, as a viewer reader, it has to be that, because once I have strong feelings about one of them, the other one's a failure.
- [24:17]
Kara Brown
It's kind of why, like, a John Grisham book is great. Because you're like, I've never. I've read John Grisham. You're not like, oh, my God, the literature. You're like, yeah, that was like. That was like a thrilling legal. Like, the Firm. You're like, yeah, okay. And so then I don't. I don't care that. I don't care that much. So then by the time I get to the movie, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm watching the thing that I read. Like, it's just the right amount of, like, how much I liked something Right. Going into the movie. But I think, you know, that's me. I don't know. I mean, I'm there a lot of other writers, and I feel like I hear this when. When it's someone who's adapted some of the book, and they're just like, well, I fell in love with the book, and I wanted to, you know, whatever. And I'm like, I do not share that sentiment.
- [25:06]
Tracy Thomas
I don't agree with that. And I usually feel like when someone falls in love with the book, they don't do as good of a job adapting. Like, when they, like, are gushing about how much they love the thing, I'm like, well, yeah.
- [25:17]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [25:17]
Tracy Thomas
It's not for me. Okay. I know that you mentioned this to me. I hope we can talk about a little bit, because this is how we came to our book club pick, is that you have been working in the world of mysteries for writing. So you've been reading a lot of mysteries, which is not a thing that you had been reading before. So what has been exciting to you about them? Talk to me a little bit about mysteries because we're gonna read Devil in a Blue Dress for book club at the end of the month, which neither of us have read before. I've never read any Walter Mosley, but I'm really excited because this is like, you know, considered the book that made black detectives a thing.
- [25:52]
Kara Brown
Yes, I guess.
- [25:53]
Tracy Thomas
So talk to me a little bit about mysteries and your relationship to them and what's going on.
- [25:57]
Kara Brown
So I was never. I can't really. I think the closest I ever got was something like a John Grisham book, which is not a. Was not a mystery, but just sort of like those are like thriller.
- [26:08]
Tracy Thomas
Procedural thriller. Yeah.
- [26:10]
Kara Brown
And I had. I think it was twofold. So my dream is one day to leave this all behind. And I just want to, like, live in the Cotswolds and like, live in a beautiful cottage and like, garden and. And read all day. And so there are these like, they call them, like, you know, like cozy mystery novels.
- [26:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [26:28]
Kara Brown
So there's this like, whole genre, like specifically, like in the Cotswolds, like in the English countryside. And it's like, you know, a lady has just moved, she's just bought her cottage and she, you know, maybe she's gotten divorced and she's starting a new life. And then she moves into this town and she's going on walks and getting to know the townspeople going into the village. And then a body shows up and she gets wrapped up in a murder. And so it's just like a really easy to digest book. And so, like, to go, like, for the past couple years, I've actually gone out to like the English countryside, like different areas for like a week to work, to like, do some writing. So I.
- [27:06]
Tracy Thomas
Have you stumbled on any bodies?
- [27:07]
Kara Brown
Not yet. But my gosh, it's gotta happen as often as I, you know, it's gotta happen soon. So I was sort of reading the books because I was like in the location and then I was approached to start to. It's. It's this story. It's based off of a true story, like a crime that actually happened. But there's like this strong mystery element. It's like the movie is kind of like a knives out vibe.
- [27:30]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [27:31]
Kara Brown
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna pitch on this Idea, but I do not know how to write a mystery. So I started reading a bunch of. I watched movies, but I just feel like for me to understand the story structure, I needed to, like, read these books. And so I just started reading, like, I read an Agatha Christie novel for the first time. I was just, did you like it? I did. I didn't like. I read her first one. Yeah, I liked it for what I was doing. I wasn't like, get me another one. I read a few more, like, more modern, kind of like mystery, like in the same vein, like mysteries. So I thought it was interesting. You're like, okay, this detective character is super important. Like, what's there? They're such a character, like capital C character. And then I started, like, watching all these YouTube videos about how to write mystery novel, mystery novels, and it was very helpful. So, yeah, so I was on this, like, terror of just reading all these mysteries to try to get into the right mindset to. To break this movie. And I, you know, like, I've done it for now, you know, obviously, like, if it moves forward and I'm. It'll. I'll have rewritten it 95 times. But yeah, I just thought I. What I learned about reading the mysteries was how satisfying they are, which I think with sort of just sort of other novels, the ending's not always super satisfying. Right. And kind of by design, a mystery, yeah, kind of has to have a satisfying. And even if, like, you know, the. The killer and all of that isn't. You're like, oh, that. Or I figured it out. Or that wasn't exact. That wasn't like the most clever thing or whatever. It's still comes together in a way where you're like, it's very satisfying. So I was like, yeah, it does feel like you just like, you just, like, had a great snack by the time you finish one of these mystery novels.
- [29:30]
Tracy Thomas
When you are reading a mystery, or I guess any book, are you the kind of person who is trying to figure out what's going to happen and what's going on? Are you the kind of person who just lets it wash over you?
- [29:42]
Kara Brown
I do not want to figure it out. I don't care. I'm like, you don't care? No, I'm like, I'm going to find out eventually. So I don't. I think just naturally you're assuming you're like, oh, this person seems suspicious, you know, whatever. And you're kind of like, yeah, it's that thing of like, is it the third most suspicious person? It's not the most. You know, like, it's not going to be the most obvious person, but I definitely am not, like, trying to solve it, which I do know is something from all of the YouTube videos I watched in the.
- [30:15]
Tracy Thomas
I'm gonna try to solve. Yeah, I'm trying to solve person. I can't. I. I try to solve just, like, literary fiction. I'm like, oh, oh, what's up? That. That person's off. Like, I'm all. I cannot let. I didn't know other people weren't always trying to figure things out.
- [30:30]
Kara Brown
I do that more with, like, TV and movies. Like, I've same. I've been. I've been watching the studio and on Apple and, like, the last episode, I was like, I know, it's. I could tell. I was, like, calling it in my head about what was going to happen, but I kind of just like letting the mysteries kind of. I like to be along the ride with our protagonist.
- [30:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I see. Okay. Yeah. I'm really bad at that. I can't. I can't help myself. I'm like, oh, I saw the twist coming. And people are like, it's not even a twist, it's just the plot. I'm like, well, I saw what was going to happen.
- [31:05]
Kara Brown
I learned this from watching all the YouTube videos that, like, the community that, like, you know, books that are easily solvable, they, like, don't like that, you know, like, that there is. People do care a lot about whether or not, like, it was too easy to figure out or it was too left field. And I'm like, yeah, that. That's fair. That's fair.
- [31:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, I. I don't mind if I figure it out. I don't like when it's really left field where I'm like, okay, well, like, you just introduced this whole new thing that is from outer space. Like, I. Like, I don't. I. I always hate that because I. Because you're telling me I gotta. It's a mystery. I gotta figure it out. And then you're like, oh, but you didn't know that. Actually, everyone's dead. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, thank you.
- [31:47]
Kara Brown
Well, one of the rules that I learned from writing mysteries is that you should give your audience enough clues to be able to figure it out. Yeah, that was a big.
- [31:58]
Tracy Thomas
Did you watch Paradise?
- [32:00]
Kara Brown
I did, I did.
- [32:02]
Tracy Thomas
I felt like they did a good job of leaving enough clues. I won't say more, but I felt like if you were paying attention, there was a world in which that could.
- [32:12]
Kara Brown
Like, that in the pilot. Yes, 100%. Because I watched, I did not know what the show was about. Like, I had no idea.
- [32:20]
Tracy Thomas
I had no clue. People were like, sterling K. Brown.
- [32:22]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Tracy Thomas
And I was like, great, this is us.
- [32:25]
Kara Brown
I had seen it. Like, I'm Hulu and it's kind of rare for me to have no concept of what a show is about. Going into it.
- [32:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [32:32]
Kara Brown
And so I watch. And so. Because when I was watching it, I was not. Yeah. I, I'm like, oh, I should have picked up on this. Like, by the end, I was like, oh, I should have figured out. And to your point, as soon as I thought about it for a minute, you're like, sure. Yeah. Like, yeah, you did, you did signal enough.
- [32:49]
Tracy Thomas
You did give us enough. Whereas, like, Presumed Innocence. I don't know if you watched that.
- [32:53]
Kara Brown
Which one was that?
- [32:54]
Tracy Thomas
That was Jake Gyllenhaal and Ruth Nega.
- [32:57]
Kara Brown
I did not watch that.
- [32:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, So I watched that.
- [33:00]
Kara Brown
It's a book too, right?
- [33:01]
Tracy Thomas
It was. And they changed. Like, there, there's been multiple movies. And so the big question was like, will they keep it faithful to the book and the other movie or not? And I won't say what they did. And I jokingly guessed the person, but in such a way that when it was the person, I was mad because I was like, I was being funny. You guys jumped the shark too far. That my, like, far afield joke answer was your actual answer. Like, I hate it here. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:28]
Kara Brown
I, I, I'm also not a big, like, my enjoyment of something does not hinge on being shocked. Like, I like for just with anything. So I, I like a twist, but I, I'm not like, oh my God, you, you blew my mind. Like, I don't really need that.
- [33:49]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I see that. I like a twist. Yeah, I like a twist, but I don't need it. I mean, especially if it's like something acted. If the acting is good. Like with Presumed Innocence, I was like, the acting is so good in this, like, like, I could have done it and I wouldn't care. But I was a little bit annoyed because I felt like they didn't need to do what they did. They had better options.
- [34:08]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [34:08]
Tracy Thomas
Kind of thing. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Imagine if edibles just made you feel good instead of too high. Consistent, mellow and super delicious Lumi gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help Getting the best sleep ever. Lumi Gummies has a strain that's right for you. Microdose Gummies can be a total game changer. I love to curl up with a book and let the rest of the world melt away. And as you all know, reading is my job, but it's also my passion and it shouldn't ever feel like a chore. With Lumi Gummies, it never does. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code the stacks for 30 off your order. Again, that's L-U-M-I gummies.com code the stacks lumigummies.com code the stacks hey friends, it's me, Tracy. Obviously, if you've been enjoying the Stacks and want to keep the bookish vibes going between episodes, I've got two places you should check out the Stacks Pack on Patreon, which is my readerly community and my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. It is May, which means at the end of this month I will be releasing my non fiction reading guide. It will contain 30 plus nonfiction books that I recommend to you based on theme content, vibes and it is exclusive to paid members on Patreon and Substack. So now is the time to subscribe so that you make sure you get this reading guide for summer. In addition to my non fiction reading guide, I've got a bunch of other perks going on all year long like bonus episodes. If you join on the Patreon, you can have access to our Discord. We've got that mega reading challenge. I have weekly paid posts over on Substack. There's just so much stuff going on. So if you want more of me, if you want more of my takes, if you want more bookish community, check out the Patreon and the Sub stack. And also know that by paying for my work, you make it possible for me to offer this podcast for free to anyone who wants to listen all year long. To join the patreon, head to patreon.com the stacks and to subscribe to the newsletter head to Tracy thomas.substack.com Thank you. Ever notice that purple shop pay button and how easy it makes buying something online? Bet you didn't know that this purple button is the telltale sign that a store is powered by Shopify. Well, Shopify doesn't just make it easy to buy, it makes it incredibly easy to start a business. No matter your experience, there's a reason that Purple Shop Pay button is so loved. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US. Whether you're a big brand or just getting started, they make it feel approachable from day one. You can pick a template that fits your vibe, skip the coding and have your store up fast. Everything runs from one place. Inventory, payments, analytics, and even email marketing. And that Purple Shop pay button you've probably used as a customer. It's not just easy, it's the highest converting checkout on the Internet. Your customers already trust it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks shopify.com the stacks okay, we are back. I did not prep you for this. This is the one thing I don't prep people for. It's called Ask the Stacks. Someone has written an email asking for a book recommendation so I'm going to read to you what they said. I think this one's pretty broad so I think you're going to do great. If you at home want to have a recommendation read on air, email Ask the Stacks at the Stacks podcast. Com. This one says is from Tess and they say hello. I am looking for recommendations for my book club. I personally don't read a lot of fiction outside of book club. I gravitate towards nonfiction around social justice, history, sexuality and or true crime. If I do pick up fiction, it's either a classic by a female author. Pride and Prejudice is one of my all time favorite books, or fantasy that is nostalgic for me. I was a big Tamara Pierce reader as a child. The rest of my book club are much more fiction readers, mostly historical fiction. I found that most of the historical fiction suggested is mainstream and therefore very Eurocentric. I'd love some recommendations for fiction books with more diverse perspectives or non fiction with compelling narratives. I've listed our recent reads below for reference on the vibes and the group and I'll just give you a few of those. The Vanishing Half the Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo the Midnight Library Becoming the Stationary Shop Project Hail Mary the Paris Architect so those are some of the books they've done. So they have. Yeah. So we're going to give them some book club picks. I. I will do three. You can do one or two or three. Up to you.
- [39:25]
Kara Brown
Okay.
- [39:26]
Tracy Thomas
Do you have an idea? Do you want to go first or would you like me to Go.
- [39:29]
Kara Brown
You go. You go.
- [39:30]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so my first pick is technically not historical fiction, but it's an old book so it will feel like historical fiction because it was written in the 1920s. It is passing by Nella Larson. This book is a blast to discuss. We did it here on this podcast with Cree Miles. We had such a good time. It's super short so everybody can finish it. Not a lot of pressure. It's about two women. One, two very fair skinned women. One is passing for white, one is living as a black woman. That's all you need to know. Juicy stuff. My second pick is my current literary obsession. It's a throwback. It taps into your sort of fantasy world, which is the Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins. I just reread the first three books because there's the new book and they're so good. But the first book has anything you want to discuss about what's going on in the world right now, Baby, it is in. Katniss is dealing with it. It's so much fun. There's so much to talk about. And it's again like an. It's not short, but it's just like such an easy, fast read and there's just like you could just really get juicy. I want to do it with a book club. I think it would be so fun. And then my last one is my non fiction pick for you that kind of taps into social justice history and a little true crime, which is just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson. It's about his time as in the beginning of his career when he was working to exonerate people on death row. But it gets into the history of death row and the work he did to make it so that minors could not be put to death or into prison for life without the possibility of parole. There's like one central story in the book, but also a lot of history and, and reporting and et cetera and it's, it's a fantastic book. So yeah, all three of my picks are books that I desperately love. And so I think your book club will like them even if they have slightly basic reading tastes.
- [41:30]
Kara Brown
Just mercy. Can I tell you, I remember reading that book and it was like one of those books. I would have to. I would like read it and then I have to put it down because I'd have to be like, were sending. They're sentencing 15 year olds to life and for just like. It was so crazy.
- [41:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. That book made me consider going to law school. Like I literally was like, how will I. How should I.
- [41:52]
Kara Brown
No, I, I think I. And it hadn't occurred to me. I was like, wait, we're sending 16 year olds? We're putting 16 year olds on death row or like for prison? For life? Like.
- [42:03]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [42:03]
Kara Brown
What?
- [42:05]
Tracy Thomas
And like so many people in the book are like special needs people as well. Like, it's just like it's depravity.
- [42:10]
Kara Brown
Yeah. Well, it wasn't that literally, like his whole argument to the Supreme Court was like, their brains are literally not set. Like, cannot, cannot understand the consequences of their actions. Which is why we shouldn't condemn teenagers.
- [42:24]
Tracy Thomas
Right. For the rest of their life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:28]
Kara Brown
I have a. I don't know that it's going to hit any of their boxes, but a book that came to mind that I would have wanted to read with people. The Death of a Vet OG oh, yeah.
- [42:39]
Tracy Thomas
Like a quick Ms. Yeah.
- [42:40]
Kara Brown
I feel like it's. It's not fantasy, but it's like dreamy. I feel like their writing is kind of like dreamy. Ish.
- [42:48]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [42:48]
Kara Brown
And I feel like it's in, I think of their books and Brits books like as on the same shelf.
- [42:56]
Tracy Thomas
Sure. Same publisher.
- [42:59]
Kara Brown
Yeah. And they're in their covers always.
- [43:00]
Tracy Thomas
The cool covers are similar.
- [43:01]
Kara Brown
But I, But I just think like the readability of both of those of their novels. But I feel like it feels like a good book hub book. It feels like you can get through it. Like, it just reads really easy.
- [43:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [43:15]
Kara Brown
And there's like a lot of like, you know, points of views in a way where I'm like, oh, I feel like for a group that will maybe be like an interesting or like a fun thing to talk about.
- [43:26]
Tracy Thomas
That's a good pick. Okay. Tess, if you read any of our books with your book club, you have to let us know. Everyone else, if you want a recommendation on air, email, ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. okay. Kara. Two books you love, one book you hate.
- [43:43]
Kara Brown
I will go with my favorite book, which is 100 Years of Solitude we talked about. And then I. A book I read recently. It's called Some 40 Tales from the Afterlives that was like S O M E S U M. S U m. And it's. I was. I was in. Was I in Bruton in England. So it's like tiny town. And I walked into the bookshop and I just like saw the book sitting there and, you know, curated bookshops. And when I bought it, the like old lady who worked there was like, it's. That's amazing. And it's really, it's. It's Short. And I read it all in, like, a day, but it's like, this guy. It's all of these different versions of the afterlife, so it's like 40 different versions of, like, what happens afterwards. And it was just, like, unbelievable. Like, it was so good. It's not super new, but I read it recently. That's been probably my favorite book so far this year. A book I hate. God, I have two, but. No, I'll do.
- [44:45]
Tracy Thomas
You can do both. That's fine.
- [44:46]
Kara Brown
Well, Heart of Darkness.
- [44:48]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [44:49]
Kara Brown
Which I was assigned. I think I've been assigned that book. 3. Between college and high school, about three times, I think. I read it for the first time in high school, and I was like, hate this. And then I was assigned it two more times in college and just, like, skimmed it to whatever extent I needed to to, like, pass the class. I don't like that movie. I don't like the movie. I don't like. What's the. Is it Apocalypse Now?
- [45:14]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah. Is that related to it?
- [45:16]
Kara Brown
It's kind of, like, technically, I think. Heart of Darkness, I just thought it was so boring and hard to read. And I feel I am not the arbiter of clear writing. But I would say, like, I read at a high level, you know, and so if I'm reading, I mean, you.
- [45:36]
Tracy Thomas
Got from flimsy to hardcover.
- [45:38]
Kara Brown
So I made that jump. I made that jump. And, you know, I have a degree in English technically. Like, I. Professional writer. And so when I'm reading something and it's hard to follow, to me, that is like, that's the book. But I just hated that book and was assigned it so many times and hate, hate, hate it.
- [45:58]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, what's the other one? Do you want to say Queenie?
- [46:01]
Kara Brown
Yeah. Didn't love it. You know what? I think with that book, I hated the protagonist, okay? Like, I just thought she was such a dumb. And not like, a funny way, just like, a dumb. And I was like, you're such a dumb bitch. I'm not even rooting for you. Like, that's like. You know, it's like when your friend is like, oh, my God, my friend's being stupid. And you're like, oh, but I love her, or whatever. I was like, oh, I don't want it. Like, you. You deserve everything happening to you because you're so dumb.
- [46:30]
Tracy Thomas
Are you at. Are you a person who needs a likable protagonist? You just. Or just not. This just wasn't it.
- [46:38]
Kara Brown
I just, like, needed it to make any. Like, I just felt like, she doesn't need to be likable. But she was like, it wasn't even like she was unlikable. She was just. She was like, embarrassing and like, not a funny. Like, I was like, oh, my God. Like, and I think the book wanted you to be in it with her. Like, oh, she's messy and she's figuring it out. And I was like, like, there's a scene, like, the scene that killed me. There's like a scene where she's black and she goes home with her white boyfriend's family and his family is super racist. And she like, leaves and she's like, waiting at a train station and he comes, the boyfriend, and he's kind of like, you shouldn't have, like, talked to them like that. Like, he's kind of like. He's kind of like, I know it was bad, but like. And she just like, eats it. Oh, you know what I mean? I was like, okay, she sucks.
- [47:27]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [47:28]
Kara Brown
Yeah. I was like, oh, you. Yeah, you suck.
- [47:30]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, okay, I get it. What are you reading right now?
- [47:35]
Kara Brown
Right now? I'm read, so I generally do. I read a couple books at a time. Okay. So I'm reading this book right now called wake up and open your eyes. That's like this kind of horror. It's kind of like a satire of Fox News.
- [47:52]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [47:52]
Kara Brown
And it's like horror that's been like. That's been pretty good. I've been moving through it pretty quickly.
- [48:00]
Tracy Thomas
I thought it was self help. I thought it was like, how to get your day started. I was like, I'm so surprised by this pick.
- [48:05]
Kara Brown
Well, that's, that's like. That's not unrelated to like, how they're kind of pulling Google. Yeah, got it, got it, got it. And then I'm listening to this book, I think it's called no more tears about like, I guess how Johnson and Johnson is like.
- [48:18]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yes, the new Johnson and Johnson book. It just came out.
- [48:22]
Kara Brown
Yeah. So I've been listening to that.
- [48:24]
Tracy Thomas
Is it good?
- [48:25]
Kara Brown
Yeah, so it, it's been. It's good in that you're like, damn.
- [48:31]
Tracy Thomas
You're like, right, okay, wow.
- [48:33]
Kara Brown
Companies. Not. Yeah, not. But I am. It's hard for me to listen to books because I have to really focus.
- [48:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [48:44]
Kara Brown
And because this book is like information, you know, it's like non fiction. I'm. I'm having to like. I'm having to really focus. And then I started reading Devil in the blue dress.
- [48:55]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, you started it. Yeah, I haven't started yet.
- [48:57]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [48:57]
Tracy Thomas
Are you liking it so far?
- [48:58]
Kara Brown
I mean, I've read two chapters. So.
- [49:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's super short, right?
- [49:02]
Kara Brown
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm. I'm not very far. I mean, I'm. Yeah.
- [49:05]
Tracy Thomas
Got it, I got it. How do you pick what to read next? Who are your trusted sources? What are your trusted sources?
- [49:13]
Kara Brown
I would say. I mean, it's all over the place. Like, if I'm in Aki so is a very good friend. So we give each other recommendations all the time. Like we're frequently reading books at the other. So like, I had just read Curtains Curtis in Feld's last collection, short story collection, which Amina had suggested to me. Anytime, like Sam Irby posts about a book, I'll read any of Sam's recommendations because I love her and I love her mind. Her like, yes, insane mind.
- [49:46]
Tracy Thomas
Insane in the best way.
- [49:47]
Kara Brown
And she's such a reader.
- [49:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [49:50]
Kara Brown
And then I will, like, you know, when, like the New York Times does like, like I'll. When they do their sort of recommendations, like, I'll. I'll sometimes like pull from that. Like, I just read the Death of the Author. Is that what it's called? The death of Death of the author?
- [50:04]
Tracy Thomas
Death of the Author, Yeah.
- [50:05]
Kara Brown
That I had. I think actually Nakia, who wrote the Other Black Girl, had written about it for the Times.
- [50:10]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's the Nnedi Okafor book.
- [50:14]
Kara Brown
Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I read that one like, when I was on vacation and then, I mean, anything I would say, yeah, like, and then I have just like, books that I have not read that I want to read. That's just always like, okay, when am I going to pull from that? Because sometimes, you know, when there's like a new book I want to get to that quickly and then sort of pulling from just like a general, like, backlist.
- [50:40]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah. One of the books on my list of like, books I just absolutely have to read eventually one day is Heart of Darkness. I've never read it. I just feel like. I feel like I have to. Like, I just, I. I feel like it's too culturally, like, called upon to not read it. I don't think I'm gonna like it. I'm not reading it. Like, oh, I can't read to read my next favorite book. I just sort of want to know what people are talking about when they reference it.
- [51:04]
Kara Brown
You know, the incredible thing about that book for me too is how little of it I retained. Like, read to read. Like, I. It's like I would read a page.
- [51:14]
Tracy Thomas
And then it just, it was disappeared.
- [51:15]
Kara Brown
It was out of my mind. Like, I Could not retain any of the story. So good luck, you know? I mean.
- [51:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, we'll see. I don't know. I mean, it's been on my list for at least 10 years and I haven't gotten to it yet, so who knows? But it was mentioned in Imani Perry's new book. She mentioned it. And I was like, you know, I gotta just read this so I know what people are talking about. Like, Imani Perry's too important to me.
- [51:38]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [51:38]
Tracy Thomas
For me not to just know every reference she ever makes.
- [51:41]
Kara Brown
I guess, ironically, I'm glad that I was assigned it so many times because I got it out of the way because I would not have picked up that book.
- [51:47]
Tracy Thomas
No.
- [51:48]
Kara Brown
In my real life. And so I guess that is what school is for.
- [51:53]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. If you were gonna say, like, this is a quintessential kind of Cara book. Because I'm gathering that you read across a lot of genres. A lot of fiction, non fiction. What's. Like, I go into a bookstore. I just want a book that I know I'm gonna love. Where are you going? What are you looking for? Like, what are the. What are the kinds of books that are just like Kara books?
- [52:16]
Kara Brown
I mean, it's so. I mean. Yeah, it's a lot of. It's mood dependent, I would say also, like, I'm often in the mood for very different things. I love poetry.
- [52:27]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [52:28]
Kara Brown
So that's kind of a random one that sometimes I'll just like. Nikki Giovanni is the reason I. Is one of three reasons I'm a writer. I do love a magical realism. Like any. Like, obviously 100 years of solitude. But another really important author for me, which, like, I'm. I'm just gonna say it and I don't want to hear anything from anybody. But it's Sherman Alexie who is like, again, the second reason I'm a writer. And so his. All of his earlier works, like, it's that kind of native magical realism kind of vibe that I just fucking love. Okay, so that's.
- [53:07]
Tracy Thomas
What's the third reason you're a writer?
- [53:09]
Kara Brown
100 years of solitude.
- [53:11]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, okay.
- [53:11]
Kara Brown
Like, to me, like, those were the three.
- [53:13]
Tracy Thomas
Those are the three.
- [53:14]
Kara Brown
Like, I. My dad had gotten me. I had read. I'd heard this Nikki Giovanni poem. He went to Half Price books and got me her collected work. Changed my life. 100 degrees of solid would change my life. And then Sherman Alexi, I grew up in Seattle, so he actually spoke at my school when I was in like, sixth or seventh grade.
- [53:32]
Tracy Thomas
Wow.
- [53:32]
Kara Brown
And I came home and I was Just like blown away.
- [53:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, this is it.
- [53:37]
Kara Brown
This is it. But. And I will. And then I will say every once in a while I want like a thick ass, like a, Like a tone. Like I want something that's just fiction or non.
- [53:48]
Tracy Thomas
Fiction.
- [53:49]
Kara Brown
Fiction. Fiction for sure. Like a Little life or like Lonesome Dove.
- [53:54]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [53:55]
Kara Brown
Like, I just want a heavy book.
- [53:58]
Tracy Thomas
Got it.
- [53:58]
Kara Brown
That is going to take me a long time and is going to do. You know, I want like it's been 60 years or like.
- [54:06]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [54:07]
Kara Brown
You know, there's like eight or 18 different like characters with something like that.
- [54:13]
Tracy Thomas
Will you sit down and read it or will you read it over like months?
- [54:17]
Kara Brown
I think usually. So I just read this very long book called the Deluge. Deluge by Stephen Markley. That. That book's like 900 pages. I had to kind of only read that book. Like when a book is like, when books are that long, that big and that kind of like there's that much story, I kind of have to just commit to just reading that. And that's probably about a month.
- [54:42]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. Okay, so you. But so. Because some people will like break up.
- [54:46]
Kara Brown
No.
- [54:47]
Tracy Thomas
Over time.
- [54:48]
Kara Brown
Like something. Yeah. Something like Lonesome Dove. I gotta say it with. With these cowboys. Because I'm gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna open this book up again and be like, where am I? What's happened? So I like to just. I like to just decide probably like two or three times a year. Because it does take like a month of my reading.
- [55:10]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [55:10]
Kara Brown
And I'll be like, okay, we're. We're doing that.
- [55:13]
Tracy Thomas
We're doing the big Me and the doves.
- [55:15]
Kara Brown
Me and this big ass book. And we're gonna get through it.
- [55:18]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. I love that. I love when I can make time to. To do something big. My goal this year is to try to do Count of Monte Cristo because I've heard it's amazing.
- [55:26]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [55:27]
Tracy Thomas
Because my thing about. I love plot. And so one of my big problems with like those big, juicy, like big long books is it's like so much vibe. And I'm like, no, I need action. Because I like nonfiction, personally. So if it's fiction, I need like, I need shit to be happening. And so I'm told Count of Monte Cristo has action.
- [55:49]
Kara Brown
Yeah, there's. I'm trying to think in terms of nonfiction. Like, I definitely like, read Hamilton. Like Alexander Hamilton. Like, I remember being like, I remember. I don't know that I was flying through it, but I don't. I remember, like. Yeah, a lot of happened in this guy. Like there's a lot going on here. I had wanted to read Oppenheimer after I saw. Because I loved the movie.
- [56:12]
Tracy Thomas
I did, too.
- [56:13]
Kara Brown
And then I was like, have you.
- [56:14]
Tracy Thomas
Actually opened the book?
- [56:16]
Kara Brown
I think I did. I probably read like 50 pages.
- [56:20]
Tracy Thomas
That font.
- [56:21]
Kara Brown
The font is minuscule, tiny, and your.
- [56:25]
Tracy Thomas
Pages are thin as hell. It's like they really packed it in there.
- [56:29]
Kara Brown
And I will say, too, with. With Alexander Hamilton, there's just, like, stuff. You know, you're like, wow, America is just starting. Like, there's a lot of shit going on.
- [56:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [56:38]
Kara Brown
Oppenheimer, you're like, I know that he personally, in his mind, there was a lot happening, right? But, like, in the beginning, you're just kind of like, anyone does school. And he's thinking of the things. It's like, yeah, yeah.
- [56:52]
Tracy Thomas
And I also, for that one, I'm just like, I don't understand the science. And so it's too hard. Like, it's too hard. I barely understand the math of Alexander Hamilton. Like, I was like, okay, so Banks. Got it.
- [57:02]
Kara Brown
Got it.
- [57:03]
Tracy Thomas
Like, but with the. It's like you're splitting an atom. I don't know.
- [57:07]
Kara Brown
I don't know.
- [57:07]
Tracy Thomas
I don't care. I don't know what Pythagorean theorem is, let alone whatever the fuck you guys are doing.
- [57:12]
Kara Brown
I'm going to be honest with myself. It is unlikely I'll ever get back to that. But, like, I. And I think the window was when I was writing the high of the movie. Yeah, that's certainly when I bought it. I was like, I'm going to. I'm going to read this book, you know, like. And once that passed, I am probably not revisiting that, but we'll see.
- [57:30]
Tracy Thomas
That's fair. What's the. Do you have a favorite bookstore?
- [57:35]
Kara Brown
I mean, not here necessarily. I think of, like, the Barnes and Noble where I grew up, because that was so my parents. Also, when I was in middle school, I was obsessed with the Babysitters Club book.
- [57:50]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, same.
- [57:51]
Kara Brown
And it got to the point where I remember. I don't know if it was my mom or my dad or they together came to me and were like, look, we're not. They. I think they said for every Babysitter's club book, I had to get a different book.
- [58:03]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [58:03]
Kara Brown
So they were like, we'll buy you babysitter's club books, but we have to buy you another book simultaneously. Because they were kind of trying to wean me off of those. So. So I think so. I do remember, like, getting to go to the Barnes and noble and pick out a book as long as it wasn't a babysitter's club book. So that feels like really nice. But recently I was like at the end of last year I was in Ireland. I was in Dublin. I was in other places, but in Dublin I think it's called like Hodges Figis this bookstore there that was just like beautiful and cozy and like all these like wood floors and the bookshelves and. And you can just tell to when a shop has been really curated and like.
- [58:48]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [58:48]
Kara Brown
You know, and like the people that work there read and really love the books. Love books.
- [58:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [58:54]
Kara Brown
And I really felt that there. Yeah. Very expensive, but it was an exclusive store.
- [59:03]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, this is our sort of speed round. What's the last book that made you laugh?
- [59:07]
Kara Brown
Probably show, don't tell, Curse Curtis Sittenfeld when I read her short stories. Those, those were. There's some funny ones.
- [59:14]
Tracy Thomas
Last book that made you cry.
- [59:17]
Kara Brown
I don't really cry when I read.
- [59:19]
Tracy Thomas
Me neither.
- [59:19]
Kara Brown
That's okay.
- [59:20]
Tracy Thomas
Last book that made you angry.
- [59:23]
Kara Brown
That book the Deluge. It's like about climate. It's like kind of like if we did nothing about climate change and I was like, oh my God, we're all going to die.
- [59:29]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [59:30]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [59:30]
Tracy Thomas
Won't be reading that last book where you felt like you learned a lot.
- [59:35]
Kara Brown
Okay. There's this guy named Oliver Berkman who writes these books that are kind of self healthy books but he wrote one called 4000 Weeks. Oh yeah. That I'm. I love his writing and I love his general life philosophy. It's just like calm me down a little bit. And I, I just like the way he approaches like time and work. And I also read this book called Slow Productivity that's in sort of a similar vein of just like how to. Just how to approach work differently. So those were helpful, right? Yeah.
- [60:04]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. Is there any books that you're embarrassed to have read? To have read?
- [60:12]
Kara Brown
I mean embarrassed. You know what? I. I don't think it's embarrassing but I'm a real sucker for those. Like, like all of the books that after Anthony Bourdain wrote his books that were like I was a waiter at this thing and like this is like the great. Like I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like I. And I'm kind of like, like you could read that on one plane ride. You know what I mean? Like that's what from like LA LAX to jfk, you can get through the whole book. And it's not really. They're just like, let me tell you about like when I worked at the hotel and all the things the guest did that were kind of crazy, like, yeah, I will. I will read one of those. Okay. And it's not. It's not high literature.
- [60:52]
Tracy Thomas
What about a book you're embarrassed that you still have not read?
- [60:56]
Kara Brown
I feel like it's all those, like, Russian. Like War and Peace.
- [61:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [61:00]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [61:01]
Tracy Thomas
People say that all the time. I. We read Anna Karenina on this podcast, and you know what? I said, done. I did it.
- [61:06]
Kara Brown
Oh, really?
- [61:07]
Tracy Thomas
Read a Russian. I did it. I think I'm gonna do it, but I'm done.
- [61:11]
Kara Brown
I think I'm gonna do Warren. Like, I will do it eventually, but to your point, you kind of gotta pick one. Like, maybe I fall in love with Russian literature. That is possible. Probably not. So whatever, why pick? That's gonna be. To me, it needs to be the most indicative of. Of kind of like the. The lore and like, they're. You know, historically.
- [61:32]
Tracy Thomas
I liked Anna Karenina. I will say I thought it was really good. It's juicy. Stuff happens. There's some sections where nothing happens because it's about, like, agriculture, and those parts are, like, sort of important to the book in, like, setting the scene kind of stuff. But the stuff with Anna is.
- [61:48]
Kara Brown
Okay.
- [61:48]
Tracy Thomas
She's out here. She's bopping, maybe.
- [61:50]
Kara Brown
God.
- [61:52]
Tracy Thomas
Do you have a problematic favorite? I mean, I guess you said Sherman Alexi.
- [61:55]
Kara Brown
I would say he's my. He's my. I mean, I. Listen. His last book, that. That sort of memoir about his mother.
- [62:03]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [62:04]
Kara Brown
I haven't read any of it's. You don't have to say you love me. I'm sorry. It's fudgeing. Incredible. It's incredible. It's one of the best books I've ever read. He's an excellent poet. Like, you know, like. I know, but like, his. He's such a good writer. It's like. It's tough.
- [62:23]
Tracy Thomas
I never read him. Do you have any favorite books about where you're from? So I guess Seattle or Dallas.
- [62:30]
Kara Brown
Go for. I'm not gonna clean Dallas.
- [62:32]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [62:36]
Kara Brown
I'm trying to think twice. I mean, I would not say Twilight.
- [62:39]
Tracy Thomas
Are those set in Seattle, aren't they? Or she's just from there. I don't know. I've never read them.
- [62:43]
Kara Brown
I haven't read. I guess I can't say that's my favorite books if I haven't read them. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the movies are in Seattle or, like, in the Pacific Northwest. I don't know. Do people sell a lot of books in Seattle. I can't think of any.
- [62:57]
Tracy Thomas
I can't think of any.
- [62:58]
Kara Brown
Well, actually, you know what? I'm sorry again, Sherman, Alexi. Because he's from. He's not from Seattle, but like from Washington state. And so a lot of his books are set in Washington state. So it would probably be one of those.
- [63:11]
Tracy Thomas
I'm sure there must be. I'm just, I can't think of any. Okay, I only have two more for you. One is, if you were a high school teacher, what would you teach your students? What book would you teach your students?
- [63:26]
Kara Brown
I would probably do 100 Years of Solitude. That's like, when I, I read that in AP English. And I, I think I remember the day, you know, because I'm like 17, when I, when I was like, oh, wait, this was written in Spanish. Like, you know, like, it hadn't really clicked for me. And then I was like, the translation of this book is this incredible. Like I could, like, I just was like, I cannot even believe that, that I'm reading a translation and it's this good. But yeah, I just. There's like so much, there's just like so much fun stuff in that book that I would want to spit chat about or educate, I guess.
- [64:05]
Tracy Thomas
I love the teacher. I'm just here to chit chat you guys. Like, you'll learn about alliteration later, but I just want to talk. Like, let's just talk nuts and bolts.
- [64:13]
Kara Brown
Yeah, it's the book. And then also, like, it's how I really understood magical realism.
- [64:18]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [64:18]
Kara Brown
It's like the example. So I think like, understanding that genre through that book would be. Would be really fun.
- [64:25]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. Okay, last one, I saw it from the New York Times. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would you pick?
- [64:34]
Kara Brown
All book. Any book. Cat in a Hat. I mean, I'm going to assume he's less of a utter imbecile. The book, I would always say, is the Warmth of Other Sons.
- [64:48]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yes.
- [64:49]
Kara Brown
Like for, for every president but Barack Obama. Yes.
- [64:54]
Tracy Thomas
Well, no, he probably needs it too. He's not, he's.
- [64:56]
Kara Brown
But I think he's probably. Yeah, but he's probably read it. I would assume he probably read that book.
- [65:01]
Tracy Thomas
He's.
- [65:02]
Kara Brown
Yeah, I think that's like, to me, just like the, A picture of like the African American experience in like a segment of history. Because I just feel like sometimes you'll be like, yeah, there's slavery and then they like jump to the civil rights movement and you're like, what was happening reconstruction to, like, the 50s. You're like, what the hell is happening there? And it's like, right. Some bad. And. And. Yeah, I just think that book, like, a masterpiece, perfect masterpiece.
- [65:33]
Tracy Thomas
That's like. We call. I. We call books that are, like, really important to us as readers around here. We call them books of our life. And that's a book of my life.
- [65:41]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [65:41]
Tracy Thomas
It's not necessarily, like, a favorite book, though. This one particular is. But it's just, like, a book that is, like, meaningful to you from a point in your life. And this one is probably the book of my life.
- [65:51]
Kara Brown
And I. And I think it's for. I think for black people, it's very important. But also there's just like, the depth. Like, the depth of black history in the United States that isn't slavery. That isn't, you know, like. Which is important, but, like. And the danger people's lives were in.
- [66:11]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [66:12]
Kara Brown
In. In for so long, I think, is just not. We just think of it as very kind of binary. Like, you think of it as, like, oh, well, do you think of a slavery? You think of, like, water fountains and shit. And. And then also a question I had not asked myself before I read that book. You're like, yeah, how did everybody get from the south to other places? You know, like, why?
- [66:31]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I'm from Oakland, and this has been talked about a lot recently with Ryan Coogler.
- [66:35]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [66:36]
Tracy Thomas
Like, why do we all have Southern accents in Oakland? Like, why does Kendrick Lamar talk like that? Right? And it's like, oh, because we're all from Louisiana.
- [66:43]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [66:44]
Tracy Thomas
Like, we all did the same route, and that's why people from, you know, Chicago are like, a different kind of block.
- [66:50]
Kara Brown
Yeah.
- [66:51]
Tracy Thomas
Like, it's like you guys are like.
- [66:52]
Kara Brown
Yeah, like, the food that people brought with them, Like, I just think it's like, our history here has not been that long. Like, sort of relative to just, like, Earth, but, like, it is so full and rich and, like, I just think that book. I have not seen a better example of. Of sort of laying that. Laying that all out so good.
- [67:15]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, Kara's done for today. She's out of here. She's sick. She's sick of you. She's sick of me. But lucky for us, she will be back on May 28th for our discussion of Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. It is his debut book. It's his first book, and it's the first book in the Easy Rollins series, which is. He's still writing them. He has a new one coming out this year. It's the last one, he said. And yeah, he started and he started the series in 1990, so it's, wow, five years old. Easy is not so easy anymore. He's, he's getting around harder, I think. But we're going to discuss that. There will be spoilers. So read the book with us, come back and listen. Kara, this was amazing. Thank you so much. You met all the expectations I had for you seven years ago.
- [68:02]
Kara Brown
I had not. I mean, I know we started with that, but I think I immediately forgot that, that there was a high bar to clear and so you cleared. Oh, thank God.
- [68:14]
Tracy Thomas
Up and over. I don't know a high jumper to reference here, but you did it.
- [68:17]
Kara Brown
And I'm going to do even better the next time.
- [68:19]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, are. And everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Kara Brown for joining the show. Remember, our book club pick for May is Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, May 28th with our guest, Kara Brown. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and check out our website at the stacks podcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Freelo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite, and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.