Ep. 372 Apropos of Nothing, There’s This Book with Frederick Joseph

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks Ep. 372 – "Apropos of Nothing, There’s This Book" with Frederick Joseph

Release Date: May 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 372 of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes renowned writer Frederick Joseph to discuss his debut young adult (YA) novel, This Thing of Ours. The conversation delves into the intersectionality of writing in the YA space, the motivations behind Joseph’s decision to boycott Target for book sales, and his perspectives on literary canons and creative writing. The episode, recorded before the book’s official release, offers listeners an in-depth look into Joseph’s creative process and the socio-political themes embedded within his work.

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Guest Background and Book Overview

Frederick Joseph, known for his nonfiction works for both adults and children, ventured into YA fiction with This Thing of Ours. The novel follows Ozzy, a young Black teenager attending a predominantly white prep school. After a career-ending injury from basketball, Ozzy transitions to the school’s writing program, only to find himself entangled in the contemporary debates surrounding book banning and the anti-woke movement.

Key Points:

• This Thing of Ours is a New York Times bestseller.
• The book addresses themes like race, censorship, and the resilience of Black youth.
• Set in 2023, the narrative captures the immediacy of current societal issues.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [01:17]: "Black Americans have the most expertise in this country when it comes to white American culture."

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Motivations Behind Writing YA Fiction

Traci explores why Joseph chose to pen a YA novel after his extensive work in nonfiction and poetry. Joseph reveals that the inspiration struck while witnessing the banning of his earlier book, The Black Friend, in a Houston school district. Recognizing the need to address censorship in a more engaging format, he transitioned to fiction to reach younger audiences authentically.

Key Points:

• The novel serves as a response to real-world book banning incidents.
• Joseph emphasizes the importance of empowering young readers to stand against societal injustices.
• He highlights the significance of marginalized voices in shaping cultural conversations.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [08:00]: "I wanted young people to feel empowered to stand up not just against book bans, but against the litany of things happening in society."

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Authenticity and Intersectionality in YA Writing

The discussion underscores the challenges and responsibilities of addressing multiple facets of identity and oppression within a YA framework. Joseph emphasizes the necessity of integrating realistic experiences of racism, homophobia, and systemic injustice to portray authentic narratives.

Key Points:

• Authentic representation is crucial for resonating with young readers.
• Incorporating intersectional issues provides a more comprehensive view of societal challenges.
• Joseph advocates for honesty in storytelling to differentiate his work from less engaged literature.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [13:20]: "In this extremely homophobic, extremely racist society, that is not honest writing."

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Creative Writing Insights and Inspirations

Joseph shares his philosophy on creative writing, emphasizing the importance of honesty and authenticity. He cites influences like Kendrick Lamar and Frank Ocean for their genuine lyrical content, despite personal preferences.

Key Points:

• The best creative writing stems from truthful expression and emotional honesty.
• Joseph believes that integrating personal and cultural truths can elevate storytelling.
• He discusses the role of music and other art forms in inspiring his writing process.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [25:03]: "The most important thing you can do for a reader is be honest. If you can do that on the page, you resonate on a soul and spiritual level."

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Target Boycott and Its Impact

A significant portion of the episode addresses Joseph’s decision to remove his books from Target stores in protest of their rollback of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) programs post-Trump’s election. This move, he explains, was both a personal and political statement aimed at leveraging economic power to effect change.

Key Points:

• Target accounts for approximately 40% of Joseph’s book sales.
• The boycott led to a 50% decrease in preorders during the pre-sale phase of This Thing of Ours.
• Joseph views the boycott as a way to inspire others, especially young people, to make conscientious purchasing decisions.
• He expresses hope that readers will support independent bookstores and alternative retailers.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [37:54]: "Stand for something or fall for everything."

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Writing Process and Daily Rituals

Joseph provides insight into his disciplined writing routine, often engaging in marathon writing sessions lasting up to 15 hours. He discusses how music, particularly listening to documentaries like Ken Burns’ The Dust Bowl, aids his creative process and scene development.

Key Points:

• Joseph’s writing is deeply cathartic and rooted in personal experiences of hardship and resilience.
• He balances intense writing periods with reflective moments, ensuring continual creative flow.
• Music and external media play a pivotal role in shaping the emotional landscape of his narratives.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [53:48]: "If I can write for 15 hours at a time, it's actually problematic."

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Future Projects and Literary Aspirations

Looking ahead, Joseph plans to expand his repertoire with a YA novel featuring two bipolar teenage girls, one Black and one Vietnamese, scheduled for fall 2026 with Penguin Random House. He also expresses interest in exploring adult literary fiction, inspired by contemporaries like Robert Jones Jr. and Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah.

Key Points:

• Upcoming YA projects will continue to explore diverse and complex identities.
• Joseph aims to contribute meaningfully to both literary and protest canons.
• He aspires to create pathways for new generations to discover and engage with canonical Black literature.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [51:56]: "I wanted this book to join the protest canon, the empowering canon."

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Conclusion and Reflections

In wrapping up, Joseph reflects on the enduring influence of his grandmother, who inspired his writing journey. He underscores the importance of representing layered and realistic antagonists in literature, challenging monolithic portrayals of racism and prejudice.

Key Points:

• Personal inspirations play a critical role in shaping Joseph’s narratives.
• He strives for nuanced character development to reflect the complexities of real-life societal issues.
• Joseph remains committed to using his platform to foster meaningful dialogues and inspire change.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [65:26]: "If you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, it would be my grandmother. She taught me how to write."

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Additional Highlights

• Literary Canons: Joseph hopes This Thing of Ours will be recognized alongside works by Walter Dean Myers, Octavia Butler, and James Baldwin, contributing to a more inclusive literary canon.

• Writing Challenges: Despite his prolific output, Joseph admits to grappling with spelling errors, adding a humanizing touch to his persona.

• Community Engagement: Both Traci and Joseph emphasize the importance of supporting independent bookstores and utilizing platforms like Bookshop.org to ensure wide accessibility of diverse literature.

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Closing Thoughts

Episode 372 of The Stacks offers a compelling exploration of Frederick Joseph’s debut YA novel, blending personal anecdotes with broader discussions on race, censorship, and the power of honest storytelling. For those interested in contemporary YA literature that addresses pressing societal issues, this episode serves as an enlightening resource.

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For more details on This Thing of Ours and to join the conversation, visit www.thestackspodcast.com. Don't forget to tune in next month for the book club discussion on Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hey y' all, it's Tracy. Nothing makes me feel better than seeing a great photo of myself. I know I'm a Leo, but getting a good photo can be kind of tricky, and selfies certainly do not always cut it. And if the wrong person is behind the camera, getting your photo taken can be awkward with pretty mediocre results. But with Laney, getting your picture taken can be a wonderful experience. Laney is a Los Angeles based photographer that specializes in capturing real, beautiful moments, especially for families and couples. And now I know not everybody's in front of the camera, but trust me, Laney sessions are relaxed and fun. And if you don't know what to do, Laney will guide you through with playful and fun prompts that allow you to capture real moments. I got to work with Lainey when she photographed the most recent STACKS annual party at the Los Angeles Book Festival, and those shots came out amazing. Laney has worked with all kinds of families and individuals to give you final photos that you'll want to print, frame and keep forever. You can check out her Instagram at laineyphoto and learn more or less or book a [e-mail] that's L A I N I photo.com use the code the stacks for 20% off at checkout.

[Frederick Joseph]

I'd say that black Americans have the most expertise in this country when it comes to white American culture.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, for sure.

[Frederick Joseph]

And so, and so to have your expertise about your own culture and also the sort of dominant white American culture as a writer, as a musician, as a, as a visual artists on and so forth, it gives you this, this ability that no one else has. It's not just that Toni Morrison is phenomenal, it's that she's also, her work is in conversation. Whereas there might be a white author who's a really strong writer, but their work's not in conversation about anything. Part of the reason why I actually wrote certain things in this book, because it's, it's sort of a bit of a flex that I know your. I know yours just as well as I know mine. Foreign.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I get to welcome to the podcast Frederick Joseph. Frederick is a writer who has written nonfiction for adults and children. He's given poetry a try, and now he is delving into the world of young adult novels. His newest book, a New York Times bestseller, this Thing of Ours, follows a young black teen named Ozzy who attends a majority white prep school. He was on the basketball team until he had a career ending injury, at which point he shifted his talents to the writing program which gets caught in the crosshairs of the book banning anti woke movement. Today, Frederick and I talk about the all at onceness of writing in the YA space. We talk about why Frederick wanted to pull his books from Target and his favorite sad boy musician. Don't forget our book club pick for May is Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. Kara Brown will be back on Wednesday, May 28th to discuss this book with me. So be sure, read along and then tune in. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And let me just say this to you, are you subscribed to the Stacks? You definitely should be. So wherever you're listening to my voice right now, make sure you click the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you love the show and you want even more access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks Pack community. And you can get my newsletter sent directly to your inbox by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com you get a bunch of perks like bonus episodes, access to our discord, virtual book club meetups, and a lot of hot takes. Plus you get to know that you're supporting making this show possible. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with Frederick Joseph. Okay, everybody, I'm very excited. I am joined today by Frederick Joseph, his new book. It's his first novel. It's a YA novel. It's called this Thing of Hours. And I'll just say this, I'll just say it right now. You guys know I don't really with YA novels. Okay? It's not really my. Unfortunately for all of you, you're gonna have to read this book because I liked it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everybody. You know, I only usually am telling you about like a Jason Reynolds YA book. I've recently read. Mahogany Brown really liked her stuff and now I've read this and I liked it. So maybe I do like ya. I don't know. We can unpack this more. But for now, Frederick, welcome to the Stacks.

[Frederick Joseph]

I'm glad to be here and I'm also very happy you liked it. You're one of maybe five people who I was like crossing my fingers.

[Tracy Thomas]

So who else is on the list? I got to know now. Who's my competition? Slash Community.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, yeah. Cree Miles. So Cree duh. Yeah, yeah. Of course. And then, honestly, I'm still waiting on Jason, Derek Barnes, and Saba Tahir.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. This is like. Okay. It's like me and Cree and then titans of industry. So thank you for including Cree. And I will say thank you on Cree's behalf, though Cree's slightly more titanish than I am, so I'm just. I'm just honored to be here, honestly. Thank you.

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, please. No. And. And. And for all of them, Derek blurbed it. I didn't ask for a blurb from Jason or from Saba. I just got them copies, so I'm just hoping that they enjoy it. So.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I love this. Let's. Okay, let's. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about the book. Can you, in about 30 seconds, tell people about this thing of ours?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes. So this thing of ours centers the story of Ossie Brown. He is one of the top basketball players in the country, and it sort of unpacks what happens to sort of a young black person who doesn't serve, you know, sort of white spaces because of his talent with his body anymore. Right. Because he gets. He gets hurt. And he has to, you know, figure out who he is, not just internally, but externally, in a very white space, white world, white school. And he finds his voice through literature and through his own gift of writing and finds community largely through the efforts of the black women in his life, helping him find that through again, books and books and writing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Did you play basketball?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes. Yeah, I played basketball. I played football. I played just about everything. I was sort of like the quintessential, you know, urban. Urban mythos of a black youth, if you would.

[Tracy Thomas]

Where did you grow up?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yonkers. Where the book takes place? Yep, Yonkers, New York.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Got it, got it, got it. You have famously written poetry, nonfiction for adults. Why did you want to write YA fiction? Why now?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah. So it's interesting. This book came to me when I actually was watching TV one night, and my first book, which was a nonfiction for young people, was that a school district in Houston actually spent $30,000 to ban the book the Black Friend. And I said, you know, this is really funny, but also, I think I want to write about book bands, but I didn't want to write a nonfiction book about book bands. I didn't want to write an essay. I was like, I think there's a novel here. And so, yeah, I just started working on that novel, and the characters sort of just came to me in my sleep. I just fell in love with them from a Dream, really?

[Tracy Thomas]

Who were you thinking of as your audience? Like, why did you want to write a book about book banning for younger people?

[Frederick Joseph]

You know, it's interesting because as much as you don't like ya, I think of YA as actually being this very adult sort of space as well. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

It is, yeah. Yeah, we should talk about that because it's a little bit weird to me.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But it also makes sense.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense for people who. I mean, we understand sort of many things, and so we can get more into that. But, you know, the audience for me was one. Young people. So that they feel empowered. Right. To actually stand up not just against book bands, but sort of like the litany of things that are happening in society. I wanted young people to see, especially the character Naima, I would say, more than anyone, who's just this beautiful sort of hodgepodge of all the brilliant black women that I've. I have in my life and also have known throughout, you know, my sort of life thus far. And so I wanted them to feel empowered. But also adults. I think adults need to read this book because there's so much to be centered in the conversation around parenting, around empowering young people, and also just sort of like, how we're showing up in this moment in time that we're in because the book is awkwardly timely. Excuse me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, well, and it's set, like, now there's a reference to Church Girls by Beyonce. So I think maybe it's set in 2023. Does that feel right to you, or is it now?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, It's. It's. It's 2023. We. We tried to do as good of a job as we could removing some of the specific dates, but. Yeah, around 23. Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I mean, there's events that happen, so, like, we know it happens post George Floyd, because there's a George Floyd, you know, like, and. And there's a character sings church Girl. So I'm like, okay. Well, it had to be after summer 2022, like, working our way through the school year, we get to new Year. So I was like, you know, unlike Cree, she and I have talked about this a lot. I did not know that people read books and just let it wash over them. And they're not trying to, like, figure out what happens next or figure out what's going on or figure out when it is or where it is. I only read novels, like an actual detective. So, like, if there is something that does, I'm like, well, wait a second. I thought they were 17 Nope, they got to be 16 because you're like, I'm like trying to figure out every little thing. So I had, I had put the book in 2022, but then with the church girls reference and then the time of year that it was when they were singing the song, I'm like, okay, had to, you know, I'm like, really, really being crazy, like with your book. But it checks out anyways. I don't even know how I got on that.

[Frederick Joseph]

But, you know, I mean, that makes sense though. I mean, for the work that you do. Which is also why I think I was so nervous about you reading the book. Well, one, because you're very honest about books, which I appreciate, but also because you have a critical lens to how and why things make sense. And it's one of the reasons I was excited to be in conversation with you because I, I've heard you do that before. Right. Just like, well, this doesn't really tie into that. And if this, then that. And I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I dig that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so let me flip this on you. I've never asked an author this, but since, since you were nervous, I'm going to put you on the hot seat. What were you nervous specifically about me reading this book? Were there things that you were like, Tracy's not gonna like this, or I'm nervous she's not gonna get this, or like, what basically, what are your insecurities with.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, so I. Well, there's a few. One, I was hoping that I struck a balance of sort of like honest conversations, very intersectional conversations around class, race. I tackle a lot in the book.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I also have a question about that.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah. Yeah. But I also wanted to feel like a good, enjoyable novel where there's still hope and there's love and things like that. So, one, if I didn't strike the balance, I knew you would call that out. And then two, it's my debut novel. I've never written anything published long form fiction. Right. So it's, it's not easy. Right. You have to, you have to sort of keep up a certain level that, that just, you know, that maybe the intro is good, but then, you know, it just doesn't stick the landing in the middle and maybe, you know, so on and so forth. And I knew that if anyone was going to be honest about that, it would be you. So.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, my reputation is getting out of my control, actually. I gotta, I gotta rail it back in. I feel like I'm intimidating people. No, I think you do strike a Balance between sort of. I mean, one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, like, there's a lot packed into this book, which on the one hand, I think is really difficult to do. And on the other hand, I feel like is sometimes missing in books that are targeted for young people, that they have to be streamlined. But for the audience, this is not spoilers. I'm just going to run off a few things that are in this book that you, you might be like, how is it all in there? So we talked already about, like, black athlete who is no longer, quote, unquote, valuable to white spaces because of his injury. There's also black kids, brown kids at predominantly white institutions. There's book banning. There's also censorship, censorship. There's protests, there's police violence. Like, there's all of these things that feel extremely timely, but I will say that none of them felt like they weren't grounded in the story or like it felt like you were trying to do the most. Because definitely sometimes I'm like, okay, babe, we get it. Like, you don't have to do everything. So to that fear, I think that you did, did a good job with that.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, no, I, I appreciate it. I, I think for me, the honest truth of how I did that, why I did it, was spending time with young people. Right. I, I spend a lot of time with young people. I, I, my, my other books give me the opportunity to, to visit high schools and middle schools. And this is what kids are going through, what they're talk, lie about that. Right. So on any given day, the same news that we're seeing, the same things that we're thinking about, there's sort of this hyper awareness that the young people have now that we didn't necessarily have when we were younger because of social media, because of sort of the digital landscape. And so I wanted to capture that, like, this is what a day, what a week. You know, the book takes place over the course of months. So if, if someone was to tell me that, like, if you have a black girl in your book, and there's no. And there's no massage noir over the course of months. Right, right. If you have, you know, sort of like queer youth in your book, and there's no homophobia that takes place over the course of six months, nothing homophobic, not once happened to them. Right. Like in this extremely homophobic, extremely racist society, that, to me is not honest writing. And I think that a lot of that for me comes from, you know, my favorite writers. Right. Especially in this space, you Know, again, Jason Reynolds being one of them. You know, Angie Thomas, Nic Stone, Ibi Zoboi. Right. You have to have the honest conversations for the book to be worthwhile, in my personal opinion.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's definitely right. One of the pieces of the book is this creative writing class. It's like a bonus class. It's like a special workshop, basically. And in it I'm not going to give away plot, so I'm going to ask this question sort of broadly. But in it, the kids are assigned both books from. Of people from like, you know, whose work have been excluded in traditionally white spaces. Marginalized people, however, people of global majority, however you want to say it. And then they're also assigned books by, like, white canonical, quote unquote, great American writers. Twain, Steinbeck, you. You know who the fuck I'm talking about. I want to ask you, Frederick. I want to know which books by the white greats you particularly love and which ones you particularly hate. And also the same. Which books by the non white greats are greats who are great for. From other groups that you particularly love and you particularly hate.

[Frederick Joseph]

Ooh, you didn't think I was going.

[Tracy Thomas]

To ask about the ones you loved, huh? Your face. You were like, oh, shit, there's gotta be some.

[Frederick Joseph]

No, there are some. So I'll give you the ones I love. And I don't know that he's a sort of great per se, but I do enjoy some of his writing. One book in particular, Jonathan Franz in Freedom, was a huge.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hate that book so much. Deeply, deeply. I hate that book. I'm so excited. Okay, talk about why you love it.

[Frederick Joseph]

So it was, for me, one of the. Mind you. I'm probably showing my age where people could kind of place me a bit. I read that when I was in college, right. And so it was this sort of like generational family drama. And I just liked that that was tackled. It felt like watching a really messy version or reading a really messy version of like, this is Us or something like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Frederick Joseph]

It's deeply problematic and it's racist at points and misogynist. All the things that, quite frankly, Jonathan Franzen is. But it's also, you know, it's parts of it. I was just like, okay, I can see what he was trying to do here. And I'm going to probably do a black people's version of that at some point. Just better. Yes, okay. And so. But in terms of. I also enjoy. I enjoy Mark Twain. I do enjoy Mark Twain. I was Actually, just watching this Ken Burns documentary on him for like the 40th time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Are you going to read the Churnow?

[Frederick Joseph]

No, no.

[Tracy Thomas]

You don't love him that much.

[Frederick Joseph]

You don't love him.

[Tracy Thomas]

900 pages. You're not going to make a Hamilton musical of him.

[Frederick Joseph]

Right, Right. No, I. And right now, you know, I'm only really reading authors of color. I just. Because, you know, again, the canon is so. We read all of those things. Right. If you. If you were in any English class in America, especially, like, I would imagine that you having such a love for literature, you're probably in AP English and all that. I wasn't really.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm a dumb. Dumb. No offense to people who are in AP English. You're smart, you're beautiful. I was a dumb.

[Frederick Joseph]

Okay, well, you know, the sort of typical AP English, I went through it, all, right. And when I was. And when I was there, we never got to read, you know, Toni Morrison. We never got to read, you know, James Baldwin and so on and so forth. Right. Sort of who we like. Lord, now. But it wasn't a thing. So I'm trying to go back. And even books like Home by Toni Morrison, I never read Home. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

I never read Toni Morrison before I started this podcast.

[Frederick Joseph]

See, see, this is exactly the point. So I gave you. I tell you what I hate. Oh, I hate Hemingway. I absolutely despise Ernest Hemingway.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've never read Hemingway. So I've never read most of the books that people read in high school, like white, Black, Korean or otherwise. I, for the most part, I did. We did read Gatsby. We did read To Kill a Mockingbird and then Shakespeare, which I love. No Hemingway. I read the Pearl in fourth grade. The Steinbeck. Little tiny Steinbeck. Because I'm from California, don't remember a thing. But never read any other Steinbeck. Like, most of the references that people have of either. Like, I had this great teacher and we read the Bluest Eye. Didn't do that. But I also. We read the Awakening by Kate Chopin or whatever. One of my least favorite books I've ever read.

[Frederick Joseph]

Same. And it's interesting because I. I think so. Being from New York, I'm specifically from Westchester, so Yonkers is sort of like the bowels of Westchester.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've been to Yonkers.

[Frederick Joseph]

Really?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Frederick Joseph]

What were you doing at Yonkers? What?

[Tracy Thomas]

There's that, like a movie theater there and like a rock climbing place.

[Frederick Joseph]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

My husband, now, he went to medical school in the Bronx. And so really far up. Really far up in The Bronx. And so it was sort of close to Yonkers. So that's sort of like where we would go.

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, okay. So you sort of. You get what I'm saying in terms of like, yeah, there's. There's Westchester county, and then there's, like, Yonkers in Mount Vernon. Right. And so. And so Westchester is interesting because for those who don't know, Westchester is one of the wealthiest counties in all of America. And there's this sort of coastal, elitist, highbrow obnoxiousness to it when you're in certain spaces. But I think that Yonkers and Mount Vernon attempt to tap into some of that. And so we really had to read the sort of, like, canonical white male brothers. Right. Like, it was like there was no way to be intellectual if you hadn't.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I see. Interesting. Yeah, I didn't. Luckily, didn't have that. But also, I feel like I missed out on a lot of things in some ways. I sort of. Like, I'm mad that I didn't read some of those things because I am now going back and reading not only like, the black and brown and queer grades, but also just, like, the white grades, because I'm just like too many people. I'll tell you. I'll tell you how it really came about. At the beginning of this year, Saeed Jones and I read Toni Morrison's Goodness in the Literary Imagination. And we talked about it on the show as, like, counter programming for the inauguration. And one of the things she is talking about is how goodness shows up in all of these other books by the great whites. I think she talks about Charles Dickens or something. And it occurred to me, and I. I think I'd been, like, milling around on this, that I actually couldn't. I actually can't be the best version of myself and do the work that I do if I don't understand the references and the cultural touchstones that other people are working with, even if they hate them. Like, Toni Morrison wasn't like, Charles Dickens is amazing. But I know that she was reading Shakespeare. I know that she was reading Dickens. I know that she was reading Hemingway, and she was responding to it. And I can't see what she was doing as clearly if I don't understand what. What she's responding to and working through. So as an adult, I'm now going back and reading a lot of these books, not necessarily for, like, enjoyment or thinking they're going to be great and open anything up to me, but so that I have that information, which is really different than assigning it to kids as like, this is what good writing is. But it is something that I'm doing right now. So I was like, feeling, you know, I'm definitely feeling it. It's changed my reading life a lot.

[Frederick Joseph]

You know, it's interesting you say that, because I actually also think that that's what makes black people so special when it comes to being able to do certain things. Because, like, whether it's artistic, artistically, or in like a marketing space or just anything that sort of has to understand another community. Because I'd say that black Americans have the most expertise in this country when it comes to white American culture.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, for sure.

[Frederick Joseph]

And so. And so to have your expertise about your own culture and also the sort of dominant white American culture as a writer, as a musician, as a visual artist, so on and so forth, it gives you this ability that no one else has. Right. And that's what you're kind of speaking to. So, like, it's not just that Toni Morrison is phenomenal, it's that she's also. Her work is in conversation. Whereas there might be a white author who's a really strong writer, but their work's not in conversation about anything. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's certainly not in conversation with Toni Morrison.

[Frederick Joseph]

Right, exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

And so, like, it's not in conversation with our greats.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes, yes. And I. And I think that's part of the reason why I actually wrote certain things in this book. Because it's. It's sort of a bit of a flex that I know your. I know yours just as well as I know mine.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, right, right. And that's the flex that I'm personally working towards. I need to know. I. I need to know more. Okay, so in the book on page 59, you have a line talking about creative writing where you say the best creative writing is true writing. Can you say more about this?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, I think that one. This is going to sound sort of woo, woo, I suppose, but everything is just sort of made up, right? Like, quite literally, where you should use a comma, where you should use a semicolon, how you should, you know, what adjectives you should use, so on and so forth. And that's what I think is the most important thing to understand about creative writing. That when you come onto the page, the most important thing that you can do for a reader is be honest. I don't care about, like, obviously, like, in the context of being a professional writer, I do care about punctuation and things of that nature. But when I walk away from writing something. And when I talk to young people about writing, did you give something to that page? Did your pen say something honest? Were you true about the world around you? I think that's also what separates. That's what separates the greats from lack thereof. I think you can learn to write. You can truly learn and develop the skill, the talent of sharing in a way that resonates on a sort of like soul and spiritual level. That's something that can't be taught. You have to be willing to be honest to do that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I like that a lot because I also think, I mean certainly with me, but I think even maybe more so with young people, the bullshit meter is just through the roof. Like the second something doesn't feel honest or true for young people and myself, I guess young at heart, young in mind, it's like it becomes almost like paralyzing. Like I can't get through it if I feel like you're lying to me or I start to resent you, or I start to just nitpick every little thing. Whereas if the thing feels true, if it feels honest, if it feels urgent, I can forgive things that I maybe don't like or I can like. Like this part was weird, but generally they did what they tried to do. And I think, I think you're right. But to be more specific, how does that pertain specifically to creative writing? Like why is it the best creative writing and not the best writing in general is true writing?

[Frederick Joseph]

So I think the best creative writing is. So writing in general, it depends on sort of like what you're trying to accomplish is that a creative is create, is a spiritual journey in my personal opinion. Right. Like creative writing is this. It's. It's something that is so rooted in the depths of humanity, right. And the best thing that you can do in this life as a human is live true to yourself. And so if you can do that on the page as a creative writer, I'll give you a really good example of someone. Mahogany L. Brown, right. She's a sister of mine, love her to death. But even if she wasn't her as a creative writer, it feels like her, right? It feels like her spirit, it feels like her soul. Like when she comes to a page, not just in sort of this again, the skills that she's developed and understanding sort of how to write. And she can write an essay. Yes, yes, yes. But what she writes in this way, right? There's things she's accomplishing in her work that are so mind numbingly interesting, right? How she tackles them because she's mind numbingly interesting. If you sit with her, it feels like her. So her creativity just shines in that way. If. And I hope that makes sense what I'm saying right now. Again, it sounds a little woo woo, I suppose, but does that sort of.

[Tracy Thomas]

It does. And she's such a good example because I was lucky enough to get to do have lunch with her and a few other women writers during AWP this year. And I'd never met Mo before. And she comes to the table and I'm like, oh, oh, I'm in love with this person. Like, this is just a fantastic human. And the next day she brought me a copy of her newest book. A Bird in the Air Means that We Can Still Breathe. And I read it, I just finished it this week. And I immediately text her and I said, you know, this is really good because you really capture all these different characters and their voices, but it really feels like you still, like, it still doesn't feel like you're not there. It feels like you're inside the soul of these characters. And. And something. Someone similarly said something to me. Jose Olivar is the poet. We were talking about Lucille Clifton's poetry and he was talking about her Persona poems and saying her Persona poems so accurately, like, tap into this other voice. But they always feel like Lucille Clifton poems. And I hadn't picked up on that because I'm not particularly good at reading poetry yet. That's new for me. But having him say that to me, I think again is speaking to what you're saying of like, the true honesty of the thing is there because it is infused by the person if they're really being true and honest.

[Frederick Joseph]

Absolutely. I think another example to use really quickly for any, especially for the young people who will listen to this, Kendrick Lamar. Kendrick Lamar is one of the greatest creative writers in history. Him and Frank Ocean, I think they're so. They're so honest. Right? I mean, they're so honest.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't like Frank Ocean, though.

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's not for me. It's too sad. Boy, I. It's just a little too sad for me. Sorry, I don't even. I like Forrest Gump.

[Frederick Joseph]

You know what's so funny? I. I can't wait till the day that we get to like, actually sit in person and truly meet. Because I'm known for having hot takes. I just don't necessarily share all of them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I shook all them into. My editor Christian is going to be so mad about this one because he really I'm sure he loves Frank Ocean. He's got big Frank Ocean, sad boy energy, too.

[Frederick Joseph]

That is a wild. Oh, that's just. I'm so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Say he's not good.

[Frederick Joseph]

I know, I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't like cats.

[Frederick Joseph]

No, I get the delineation. No, I get it. And I guess not everything's for everyone except for Frank Ocean. I'm just.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm never in a Frank Ocean mood.

[Frederick Joseph]

That's so funny. I'm. I'm a brooding, melancholy person. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm absolutely a sad boy.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's sad boy music. Kendrick. Yes. Obviously I'm. I'm always in a Kendrick mood somehow. Like, I'm always in the mood to talk to Drake. But. No, but I. I agree. I understand what you're saying. Kendrick is a more apt example for me personally, because I can connect to that. But Frank Ocean. Yeah, I do have bad. I do have very hot, piping hot takes.

[Frederick Joseph]

Okay, I'm going to. You are grown and have, like, really strongly rooted opinions and what I'm sure is like a lot of unpacking, personally. And yet still, I'm going to send you like, five songs. Like, what about these?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. You could. I mean, like, I like Channel Orange is good. Like, I listen to it a lot of times in my life, but I'm not reaching for it now. In the same way that I might reach back for something from years ago, I'm certainly not reaching back for it. Like, I reach back for Dam.

[Frederick Joseph]

Gotcha. Okay, so Dam is a phenomenal example of what I'm talking about. Right. So, like. Or why I actually mentioned Kendrick as much as Kendrick is, like, still great. And I have loved every single thing about the last year. Yeah. Damn. Especially songs like Fear. Right. Where.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Frederick Joseph]

You know, for those who are not familiar, it's one of the songs of Damn. Which he won a Pulitzer for. He is musing on all the ways as a young black person that he might end up harmed or killed. Right. I probably die from thinking that me and your hood was cool or maybe die from pressing the line Acting too extra or maybe die because these smokers are more than desperate I probably died from one of these pats and blue badges Body slamming black and white paint my bone snapping or maybe die from panic or die from being too lax or die for waiting and he's running off this list just to sort of show the weight of just sitting in blackness. Right. In. In America. Right. And it sort of bookends the beginning of the album where he has a song with U2. And he's like, it's. It's this. Nobody's praying for me. And it's sort of like this sort of loud, deeply spiritual, not musing, but more of a. An anthem. This is what America's doing to me. And so at the end of the album, to bookend it with this sort of like, whisper of this is what America is doing to me. It's just brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. And it's honest. It's just. Yes, yes. I love Kendrick, as you can tell.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I do too. I also, this was like, none of this was planned. I had no idea we were gonna go this direction. But I'm so happy we're here. It's always a real joy for me to do an interview where I have a lot of ideas about what we're going to talk about. And then we end up at, you know, talking about. Damn. It's like a real true pleasure for me. Let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back. Imagine if edibles just made you feel good instead of too high. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that's right for you. Microdose Gummies can be a total game changer. I love to curl up with a book and let the rest of the world melt away. And as you all know, reading is my job, but it's also my passion and it shouldn't ever feel like a chore with Lumi Gummies. It never does. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code the stacks for 30 off your order. Again, that's L-U-M I gummies.com code the stacks lumigummies.com code the stacks Ever notice that Purple Shop pay button and how easy it makes buying something online? Bet you didn't know that. This purple button is the telltale sign that a store is powered by Shopify. Well, Shopify doesn't just make it easy to buy, it makes it incredibly easy to start a business. No matter your experience, there's a reason that purple Shop pay button is so loved. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US whether you're a big brand or just getting started, they make it feel approachable from day one. You can pick a template that fits your vibe, skip the coding and have your store up fast. Everything runs from one place. Inventory, payments, analytics and even email marketing. And that purple shop pay button you've probably used as a customer. It's not just easy, it's the highest converting checkout on the Internet. Your customers already trust it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com thestacks all lowercase go to shopify.com thestacks shopify.com thestacks hey friends, it's me, Tracy. Obviously, if you've been enjoying the Stacks and want to keep the bookish vibes going between episodes, I've got two places you should check out. The Stacks Pack on Patreon, which is my readerly community and my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. It is May, which means at the end of this month I will be releasing my non fiction reading guide. It will contain 30 plus non fiction books that I recommend to you by based on theme content vibes and it is exclusive to paid members on Patreon and Substack. So now is the time to subscribe so that you make sure you get this reading guide for summer. In addition to my non fiction reading guide, I've got a bunch of other perks going on all year long like bonus episodes. If you join on the Patreon, you can have access to our Discord. We've got that mega reading challenge. I have weekly paid post over on Substack. There's just so much stuff going on. So if you want more of me, if you want more of my takes, if you want more bookish community, check out the Patreon and the Sub stack. And also know that by paying for my work you make it possible for me to offer this podcast for free to anyone who wants to listen all year long. To join the patreon, head to patreon.com the stacks and to subscribe to the newsletter head to TracyThomas Substack. Thank you. Okay, we're back. Normally I like ask people about like how they pick the characters names like the title and the COVID But I want to make sure that I spend a little bit of time with you talking about your Target boycott decision and how that's impacted you and the book. So for people who have been living under a rock this year, Target, after Trump was elected, decided to roll back their DEI programs. Then many people, myself included Many black people, but many people broadly were like, we're gonna boycott Target because that noise. Some people did it for that one day. Some people did it for the whole period of Lent. Some of us are still doing it. But you, Frederick Joseph, you said, I'm not going to sell my books in Target anymore. Which is clearly like, will have a financial impact because that is a major book retailer for many people. So I want to know why you wanted to make that decision and also what sort of the fallout or impact has been so far. And we are recording this episode before the book has actually come out into the world. So everything we're talking about is more on the pre sale line. But as you're listening, the book is out in the world, so you should go buy it. Okay, go ahead.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, so I made the decision because I just feel as though you. It's sort of cliche at this point, right? But like stand for something or fall for everything. Right? The classic, classic quote. Target accounts for about 40% of my book sales. And so many people around me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a.

[Tracy Thomas]

It feels like a lot. Is that, is that a lot for people or is that across the board, do you think?

[Frederick Joseph]

I don't know about everyone else I know from, for, for me it's a shit ton. And I don't, I don't know if everyone else's numbers are sort of like sitting the same way, but I've had exclusive releases at Target. I've written for Marvel and things like that. And then my first book, someone there read it and they did an entire sort of rollout where the book was in every Target and on screens. And so I've had a good relationship with them since then until now. And so it has had. We are in pre sale currently as we're recording this, but it's had a massive impact on my sales, I would say, to date, right. Just we're a week out from release as we're recording this. I'm not allowed to give exact numbers, but I'll just say this, about 50% less preorders than we are accustomed to seeing historically with my books. And so it's major. And yeah, so the books not in arguably the largest retailer, you know, for foot traffic in the country, and it's no longer on their websites and things like that. The book does not exist as it relates to Target, which I did purposely because I also feel like young people look up to me, right? Like young people look at me and told me, hey, it means a lot that you stand for these Things. And if we're going to sort of talk about the pits and ails of capitalism, I want to be more than capitalism. I do need to pay my bills. But also this, this stands for more than that. I think it's the spirit of the book itself, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, right. Do you feel like, like, would you do it again, knowing what you know now?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, I would do it again. I don't believe. I mean, I hope I'm wrong. The book's not going to be, you know, another New York Times bestseller for me. It's not going to, you know, do those things out the gate. And that's okay, right? That's. That's okay because it is going to allow me to have conversations like this where someone will hear it. And it's not just about picking up the book. Someone will say it's okay to make the sort of right decision, not just for yourself, but for your community. Right. At the end of the day, as a black person, the most important thing that we have to make change is actually our economic power. And I want to remind people of that constantly. And so, you know, I think that I've in part done that. And my hope was that some people would say, like, hey, maybe I'll go to bookshop, or hey, maybe I'll go to Barnes and Noble. And that ultimately did not happen. The people who usually go to the Target and Amazons of the world, they decided not to pick the book up quite yet. And that's okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Your book's not on Amazon either.

[Frederick Joseph]

It is on Amazon, but I think because of the fact that I was. I think people should sort of equate the two. Right, I see. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So got it. Interesting. And speaking of bookshop or like independent bookstores, do you have a favorite one?

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, I have a few. I want to list them off just to show some love. So first and foremost, Uncle Bobby's in Philadelphia. Love Uncle Bobby's. Baldwin & Co. In New Orleans. Love Baldwin & Company. Mahogany Books in DC. Love them. Lit bar. Even though shout outs to the lit bar. But my books are very rarely in there. But shout out to the whip bars.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, well, hopefully they're listening and they will do some new ordering. Make sure they have this thing of ours. It's coming out. We need you.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that bookstore. Yeah, Shout out to Books are Magic. I've named a bunch of black bookstores, but Books are Magic in Brooklyn is absolutely one of my favorite places to just be always. So, yeah, those are, those are some of my favorites. Oh, reparations Club in la. How dare I?

[Tracy Thomas]

How dare you. I was not gonna say anything, but I was taking it a little bit personally. Honestly, I was like, that feels sort of rude. Jazzy is the homie. Okay, you've done ya, you've done fiction, nonfiction, you've done poetry. Are you, Are you gonna dapple. Continue expanding short stories, adult novel? Like, are you or are you sitting pretty where you are?

[Frederick Joseph]

I. So I have a YA novel coming out in fall 2026 with Penguin Random House. That's. I. I'm particularly interested in your take on that. It's my first time getting to write. I'm writing from the perspective of two teenage girls. And so one of them black, one of them Vietnamese, and they're both bipolar. So that's coming out. And then I just wrote a YA love story. And I think those are my three YA books for now. And then I'm gonna sort of play in the adult, try to get my literary fiction bag on. I. I'm a little jealous. You know, I'm very close with Robert Jones Jr. Mateo, Escarapore, Nana, you know. Yes. Some of these people who are put out phenomenal, phenomenal novels. And I'm like, oh, I want to. What? I want to try. Let me try.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, well, let me ask you this then. When you're thinking about writing for young people versus thinking about writing for adults, what is the difference to you? What is the shift that you have to make?

[Frederick Joseph]

You know, it's interesting. I actually think that writing y. Because I. I am already sort of working on an adult novel and I think writing YA is a lot more difficult because it assumes. You have to assume a lot of things, but then you also have to like, not assume anything. It's this interesting thing where it's like, I want a 13 year old to be able to read this novel and so one would assume, like, oh, well, then you can't use this phrasing. But I'm like, actually, I think that the issue is not gonna be the 13 year old. It's gonna just be the authenticity to which you sort of like engage that 13 year old. So I think that's the big difference is how authentic you can be. I think when you're writing for adults, you just sort of do whatever you want to a certain extent. Right. Because there's so. There's so many different ways to be a human being as an adult and yes, as a young person. But like, young people are a lot more tapped into, like popular culture and things like that. Oftentimes and so, you know, this, for example, the. The adult novel I've been working on, I'm sort of like, well, I like it. So, you know, it is what it is. I don't. I don't. The audience will find it versus me trying to sort of cater to an age range. So, yeah, I think that's the big difference. There's a lot more strategy that goes into writing a YA novel.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, interesting. Jason said the same thing. He was like, none of my adult writing novel friends could write a YA novel. I don't know. I couldn't write any novel, so I don't have an opinion on that. But it does strike me that writing for younger people is particularly challenging, especially because, like, me of YA audiences will tell you what they think. They're not polite and, like, they don't have good home training. Like, you know, so I feel like that's also hard because then you have to, like, go in the school. So then the kids are like, Mr. Joseph, like, why did you write this? That sucked. Or like, this ending was bad. And you're like, okay, thank you 100%.

[Frederick Joseph]

I think that's the thing, right, that I'm. I'm not nervous about, I'm excited for. Because thus far, everything's been either poetry or nonfiction. I do have some fiction, but it's all Marvel. So, like, if you write anything Marvel, you're gonna always have a fan base, whatever. But, like, but for this, you know, so the second novel, what we did was we actually went out and got blurbs from young people before selling it, and the first draft that they read, they ripped to shreds.

[Tracy Thomas]

They were like, I will not put my name.

[Frederick Joseph]

They were like. They were like, this is garbage. Yes. They're like, I cannot. I refuse. This is not how we speak. This. I was like, copy, right? And I went back and rewrote the entire novel, and they're like, this is fine now. It's good. You could. You can.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're like, okay, continue.

[Frederick Joseph]

Exactly. You may.

[Tracy Thomas]

I like Michelle, you may.

[Frederick Joseph]

Exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's actually amazing. Is there anything that's not in this thing of ours that you wish was.

[Frederick Joseph]

Ooh, I wish I could have been more specific about sort of like Donald Trump, to be honest with you, about sort of like, the moments around Donald Trump being president and around maga, largely because of the climate of being sued, is why you can't be. There are legalities to it which you can and cannot say. And so I wish I could have just came out and done certain things. I do Think that I captured some illusions and allegories fairly well. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Did you ever think about just fictionalizing the President?

[Frederick Joseph]

I did, but. But I ended up going with something else that was a little bit more. A few characters that were a bit more grounded and. And sort of felt like you could touch them. Right. Like Donald Trump, I think, in ways, at times bails white people out because he's such this, like, grand figure. He's a symbol, a concept. And I wanted to write sort of. I won't call some of them villains, but I wanted to write layered, problematic characters who happen to be their villains. Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to write some of them at times in a way where like, oh, no, this is your aunt, this is your uncle, this is your son. This is like. And I think I won't give anything away, but like, the character who could be someone's son, I think is so important. Like, your son could do this. This is really happening. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Or your classmate.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

That kid that sort of is like saying things where you're just like, I don't really fuck with you. Like that, that person, like, it sort of legitimizes how kids might be feeling about certain classmates or like. Yeah.

[Frederick Joseph]

And it shows how kids are radicalized a bit within the digital spheres. And it's not. The kids don't just look one way. I think that we sort of sell. Or young people don't look this one way in terms of we sell these, like, American villains as being sort of these uneducated, you know, poverty stricken white people. And I'm like, I don't know about that. I think that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's interesting. I agree with you. I think that, like, the media and like, sort of the broad perception of, like, who a racist is and what that looks like is like backwoods, like Duck Dynasty or whatever. But I have always felt it is much more chilling to see, like, a proud boy. Right. Like that. That to me is like the scariest kind of Caucasian. And I wonder. And it makes me feel like the sort of, you know, Southern scapegoating. Not to say that there isn't racism in the south, but that, like, that is the only version of a person who's racist and bad isn't, like, by design, isn't very much like a scapegoat.

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, it absolutely is by design. Right. And that was on my mind so much when writing a few characters in one specific scene in this book because this is this like elite, wealthy high school and you end up having something happen and you're like, wait, to the point where, like, when certain people read it at my publishing house, they're like, this can't happen. And my editor and I pushed back, like, no, this absolutely not only could, but it is. Right. Like. And so I. And I didn't want there to be that sort of escapism where it's like, you gotta talk like this to be a racist. And, you know, like, you said, Duck Dynasty, you know, backwoods Alabama. Backwoods Mississippi. No, this is New York. This is New York. This is wealthy New York. And what does it mean that, you know, again, thinking about spoilers, but, like, the politicians, the educators, the. The wealthy kids, like, it's. It's.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's systemic because this book is so current. Right. And you're writing at a time that many of the things that are happening in the book are happening in our world very actively. We're living through it. How did you know you were done with the book? Or, like, that you had said enough to feel complete, that in six months it wouldn't feel like you'd left something out or that it was dated or something?

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, I don't think that I'll ever feel like I was done with the book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Frederick Joseph]

I think there are things happening right now, and I'm like, oh, I touched on this, or I played with this idea. But I had an interview with Publishers Weekly recently, and I said, I try to go into every project like, this could be my last project. I am someone. I live with multiple sclerosis. I live with heart disease. And so on any given day, sadly, things might not look the same for me as they did the day before. And so I wanted to put enough in this book that it could sort of hopefully join the canon. Not just the literary canon, but the protest canon, Right, Sure. The empowering canon. The things that people can latch onto and say, like, okay, we can get this done. And I felt like when I was done, I did that. Right. I created something that people can walk away from and take parts of it and do something with it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, let me ask you this. This question kind of early. Cause normally I ask people, like, for people who like this book, what's it in conversation with? But I. I'm actually more curious to know what you think will be in that literary protest canon.

[Frederick Joseph]

Ooh. I think sort of obvious, just because of the astronomical heights that it reached, probably the Hate U Give Punching Air by Ibiza Boy I really, really want, want it to sit with Walter Dean Myers work. I don't think we talk enough about Walter Dean Myers, you know, Monster and Hoops and sort of like this work that he was doing, especially for black boys in the literary space that we didn't have. We didn't have anyone but him. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I want. I mentioned a lot in this book. I want everybody to go read the books that I mentioned. I mentioned Octavia Butler. I mentioned Robert Jones Jr. I mentioned James Baldwin, Sonia Sanchez.

[Tracy Thomas]

Toni Morrison.

[Frederick Joseph]

Toni Morrison. Zora Neale Hurston. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I want people to go back to Zora. I want people to do that work, and I want this book to maybe not sit with that. I would never say I'm gonna ever sit next to Toni Morrison in any regard, but I want it to sort of be a pathway, you know, for new generations to find that sort of canon.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, that makes sense. How do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often? Music or no snacks and beverages in the home. Out of the home. Candles, incense, Rituals. Tell me.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, I write to Ken burns documentaries.

[Tracy Thomas]

Really?

[Frederick Joseph]

24. 7. 24 7.

[Tracy Thomas]

Which ones? You just watch all of them.

[Frederick Joseph]

All of them. Basically on lube.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you have a favorite?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes, my favorite is the Dust Bowl.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Frederick Joseph]

I am. If I have to write a scene, like there are scenes in the book that there's music that they're playing in the book. I don't know if you recall any of these, but I was.

[Tracy Thomas]

I do. There's so much music. The Bali playlist.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes, the Bali playlist. I was listening to those songs.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just Frank Ocean in the book, everyone. So, you know, it's There.

[Frederick Joseph]

There's also Kendrick. You know what's funny? I actually think that I have a Kendrick vs Drake argument in the book. If I remember correctly. I. I might be.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I don't remember that, but it's possible.

[Frederick Joseph]

I. It's. It's hard to remember. Yeah, Yeah. I might.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Frederick Joseph]

If I do, somebody let me know. I might have been a prophet. Who knows? But. But, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I was the original Drake hater. I went on, like, in Sam Sanders show, October the year before, and was like, drake's a loser and someone should destroy him. And I was like, I'm gonna call him a loser every day. And then Kendrick came out, and everyone was like, oh, Kendrick's so great. I'm like, well, can anybody listen to this podcast episode? I believe I had this.

[Frederick Joseph]

You're like. You're like. The California winds took it from your words.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's down the street. He's just down the street. He Was like, oh, I love the San Kendrick. Was like, I love the Sam Sanders Show. Let me listen to my favorite podcast. And was like, you know what? She's got a point. He is a loser.

[Frederick Joseph]

Tracy's right. He's not like us.

[Tracy Thomas]

And you know what, Kendrick, if you were listening, you have an open invitation to this very podcast at any point in time for any reason.

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, my God. That would be. That would. So you are. I will say. And I'm not just saying. This is the morning here now. I'm already on here. You can never post the episode if you want, but you are one of the best interviewers, I swear. Like, truly. And I'm not just saying that you, like. I really mean that. I have been lucky enough to be interviewed by various people for various things, and I. You're just really, really good. Like, I mean, yeah, I think you and Kendrick would be a great conversation.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't. Is he. Is he good at interviews? He's not.

[Frederick Joseph]

I think he's not.

[Tracy Thomas]

He doesn't want to be interviewed, is the thing. He. I feel like he. It's very Marshawn Lynch. I'm just here so I don't get fined. Energy. Very Percival Everett energy. Just like. I don't want to answer your questions. I did. I made the art. Leave me alone.

[Frederick Joseph]

But I feel like your style might actually. You might be the. The one person to sort of like, crack the code, right? Like, I'm.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is a challenge because I'll be. I'm taking it on.

[Frederick Joseph]

I'll be really honest. I don't love. I don't love interviews. I don't like interviews. I don't like.

[Tracy Thomas]

You don't like listening to them or you don't like giving them? Or both.

[Frederick Joseph]

I love listening to them. I don't like giving them. It's a necessary thing, obviously, to try to sell books, but because most people don't understand. One, they don't understand the work, and then two, people are constantly sort of projecting their ignorance on the work, in my personal opinion. And they're not well researched. Right. Like the thing. I've been reading reviews of this thing of ours, and it's gotten wonderful reviews. It was starred three times. I'm gonna be really honest. I'm gonna say something that might sound egotistical, but all the reviews that are really good, had they been black that didn't get stars, had they been black people, I think they would have been starred. Like, there's just not a lot of. There's not a lot of black people. In publishing in general, especially on the ends of reviews and publicity and things like that. I've been around long enough to know that. And I just, like. I don't want to talk to people about things that they don't really understand. Like, I. You know, I'm not. It's a novel. It's not. It's not sort of like a. It's not white fragility. You know, it's.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure.

[Frederick Joseph]

I don't feel like dealing with that. So.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, no, that makes sense. Okay. But I. I did.

[Frederick Joseph]

Cut.

[Tracy Thomas]

Thank you. First of all. Thank you. Very nice of you to say. Kendrick, you can. Come on. I'll give you a good interview if you want, whenever you want. We can talk about whatever you want. But I cut you off. You were saying you listen to some of the music that's in the books. When you're writing the scenes that have the songs playing. What else is part of your writing ritual?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, so some of the music, depending upon scenes, like, if there's a romantic scene or if there's, like, an intense scene, I need to sort of be in that. But if I'm editing or if I'm just sort of, like, flowing, which is what I like, I. I can write for 15 hours at a time. It's, like, actually problematic. I won't eat. I won't get up. I won't do anything. I'll just sit in one spot. Problem. Like, again, problematically. And if I have it going, I'll just go. Right. Which is why I think I joke about it all the time with friends. So this book is my seventh book, I think. Yeah, I think.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think it's 7Cs.

[Frederick Joseph]

Seven. I think so. And I've already written 8, 9, and 10. Right. And, like, they need to be edited, but because I'm just like, I love what I do. I like, it's not.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you ever not have it? Like, do you ever sit down and you're literally like, I can't. Like. And what does that feel like?

[Frederick Joseph]

Never. That's never happened to me. I think it's rooted in. I grew up, like, with being unheard, unseen. Just like when you're black and in poverty in America, I can't stress enough how lonely that can feel. Right. And I had all these things that I was interested in and wanted to say, and to be now, you know, in my 30s and get to actually do it. Like, I. That's one of the reason I said earlier I want the book to be successful, but already the fact that you and I. You and I are talking about a book that takes place in Yonkers. I grew up in the projects in Yonkers and I got to write about a kid. I've made it right. I've done everything that I've ever wanted to do. This is so fun. It's so fun. I just. Yeah. I don't ever not have it because I'm always just having so much fun with it.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so interesting. I love what I do, but sometimes I don't have it. Sometimes I just. And I'm the consistency queen. If I'm. I'm. I don't believe, per se, that I'm like, particularly a great interviewer or great at anything, except for I am extremely consistent. I have never missed an episode of this podcast for seven years. Every Wednesday there has been an episode. And I had twins in the middle of this, and there was a pandemic. Like. Like, I just. That, to me, is my great superpower. It's like, I will show up every day, but sometimes I don't have it. So it's interesting to hear that you feel like you always. You always have it. I mean, that I'm a little bit jealous.

[Frederick Joseph]

Well, I mean, have. It is also relative, right? Like, I mean, you do something that, like, I couldn't do what you do. I just couldn't. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, couldn't do what you do.

[Frederick Joseph]

Well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about that because I think everyone. I think everyone's a writer.

[Tracy Thomas]

But, like, not me. I hate it. It's the devil's work.

[Frederick Joseph]

I hate writing so much.

[Tracy Thomas]

But anyway, sorry.

[Frederick Joseph]

I don't know, I just feel like, again, there's levels to it. Right. Not every day am I gonna produce. Like, some days it's just a poem. Right? Like, I might, like, leave this conversation with you. It's like the sun is. I can see Brooklyn from my window. I'm talking to you. I'm in really good spirits. I'm just like, I might have a poem in me today. I might. Like, I don't have. I don't have novel work in me today, but I definitely have writing in me today because it's so cathartic. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So you write every day. And sometimes it's these 15 hour mega stretches, but sometimes it might just be a few hours or just a little bit of time.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. This makes more sense to me.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

[Frederick Joseph]

I don't know why, but I mess up business very often.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too.

[Frederick Joseph]

I don't, I don't. I don't know why I know how to spell business, but for some reason, I always. I like B, U s. Wait, what? You know, that is a good question. Can I actually tell you something that's hilarious?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Frederick Joseph]

Have you ever heard the phrase apropro of nothing?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Frederick Joseph]

Do you know that I never heard this phrase till yesterday?

[Tracy Thomas]

Really?

[Frederick Joseph]

I, I, I don't. I pride myself with, like, especially, like, the sort of, like, type A, clawing yourself out of poverty black type of person. I'm like, I need to know everything. I need to, I need to constantly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Apropos of nothing.

[Frederick Joseph]

And someone said, oh, apropos of nothing. And he looked at me, I was like, what? And it was like, apropos of nothing. I'm like, wait, excuse me.

[Tracy Thomas]

What are you saying?

[Frederick Joseph]

What language is that?

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so funny.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah. And so that. So obviously it's not the sort of spelling question, but it's the same kind of answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was like, okay, so let me ask you this in response to that. How many times have you used Apropos of Nothing in the last 24 hours?

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, my God. Nine million and so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, that's me. That's me. If I learn a new thing, I'm like, okay, let me work this in, baby. Apropos nothing. I went to the store right before.

[Frederick Joseph]

Right before this podcast. I posted, like, a picture, like, promoting the book. And I almost, like, was like, you need to use Apropos of Nothing.

[Tracy Thomas]

You'd be like, apropos of nothing. Here's my book.

[Frederick Joseph]

You should call this episode Apropos Nothing. Here's his.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm going to definitely Apropos of Nothing. There's this book, but with Frederick. I just said Frederick Douglass.

[Frederick Joseph]

No, that's fine. That's. You are so. It took you. It took you a while, but you. Everyone does that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Everyone does it. Sorry.

[Frederick Joseph]

No, you're good.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, I guess there's worse people to be compared to. Yeah, it's like, there's not. I mean, my best hope is that someone would accidentally say Tracy Chapman. That's, like, the best I can hold.

[Frederick Joseph]

That would be.

[Tracy Thomas]

There's really not a lot of other. Tracy's doing good work out there.

[Frederick Joseph]

I should actually. So I should actually just rename myself Frederick Douglass because people say it so often, but my name actually kind of sucks. Did you know that my name is the middle name of Bruce Springsteen? That's so random, right? Bruce Springsteen.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is it Bruce? Is it Bruce Frederick Joseph Springsteen.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes, it is the full thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's got two middle names.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yes. And did you know that Fred Flintstone's name is actually Frederick Joseph Flintstone?

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't know that.

[Frederick Joseph]

And so whenever, like, there's like.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I shouldn't be calling you Frederick Douglass, I should be calling you Frederick Flintstone?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[Tracy Thomas]

Incredible. Wait, what's your middle name?

[Frederick Joseph]

Jose. So people assume that it's actually T because of my handle, Fred. T. Joseph. But yeah, my middle name is Jose.

[Tracy Thomas]

But isn't Jose and Joseph?

[Frederick Joseph]

Yep. Yes, it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, it is.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah. Yes, it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is there a story here or in.

[Frederick Joseph]

Terms of how that happened? I think my father's father just being stupid. I don't know. I'm like, I'm the third and I didn't grow up with my father, so I always sort of adopted my mother's last name, Thomas, as my middle name. But my middle name is actually Jose. Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

So we share Thomas sort of. Well, I have Thomas firmly, but you sort of have a Thomas connection.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we love this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe we're cousins. Do you know Joseph Earl Thomas? We say that we're cousins. Cousins too.

[Frederick Joseph]

No. Who's Joseph Earl Thomas?

[Tracy Thomas]

He wrote the book Sink and then he also wrote the book last year. God bless you, Otis Spunkmeyer.

[Frederick Joseph]

Oh, yes. Otis Buckmire. Yes, yes. I haven't read it yet, but it. It just.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think everyone loves it. I think it has. Now that we've talked, I feel like I. I feel like you'd appreciate it. I think you'd be interested in it. It does like some interesting things. Formally, it's very much like coming of age black guy who sort of is like, defies a lot of stereotypes, but is also weird. It's definitely not ya. There's so much sex in it. A lot of sex. Which I told Joseph. I was like, I am too prude for this. I was like, this is a lot for me, but it's really good. I mean, it's. I'm not saying anything new at one awards. It's been everywhere. But he's our cousin as well. Well, on your mom's side.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to the family reunion. We're gonna turn up.

[Tracy Thomas]

We're like so over time. But I just have to ask you one last, last question. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

[Frederick Joseph]

My grandmother. My. My grandmother is largely. My grandmother taught me how to write. My grandmother's the Reason that I write, and my grandmother is very much. I'm not gonna give anything away, but Grandma Alice is just my grandmother.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was wondering.

[Frederick Joseph]

Yeah, she's just my grandmother. And I wanted to make sure that. You know, they say if a writer loves you, you never truly die. And so, yeah, I wanted to make sure she never truly died.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that so much. And Grandma Alice is, like, a perfect character. She's very. She is by far the most purely good person in the book. Right. Like, she has. She has no flaws. Except for being amazing. No. But she's. She's lovely. That's a lovely tribute to your grandmother for everyone at home. You can get this thing of ours now, wherever you get your books. Unless you get your books at Target, at which case you need to go to an independent bookstore. Go to bookshop.org I obviously will link to it in the show. Notes or. And. Or both. Probably do both. Make sure it's in your local library. Make sure it's there so that someone can stumble upon it if they're in this. In this. In the library. Because I feel like. Like we don't talk enough about stumbling upon books in the library. For young people, that. That is such a powerful place to find books, even my own kids. Our new favorite book, we just randomly ripped off the shelf without opening, and we're obsessed with it. I ordered five copies to send to everybody I know. So it's called Crab Cake.

[Frederick Joseph]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

And it's a picture book about. It's like environmental justice and also community organizing. It's literally the best children's book I've ever read. It's by. Her name's Andrea Sui or something like that. And it's about a crab who bakes cakes. And then the. The humans dump in the ocean, and everyone is paralyzed by the gravity of this thing. But crab keeps baking cake, and so then all the other animals come out, and they end up deciding what they're going to do about it. And through it all, crab just bakes cake because, like, you just got to do what you do, and you got to just keep showing up. And it's really a beautiful book. I love it so much.

[Frederick Joseph]

You describing the book just now for some reason made me really emotional. I don't know why.

[Tracy Thomas]

The book makes me extremely emotional. And I obviously have spoiled this children's book, but what I will say is the way that the. The images, like, and the colors, it's just. It's really beautiful. Again, I've ordered five copies. Two. One for each of my kids, teachers and then some for some friends for birthdays. And I will continue to order this book for everyone who has small children because it's really powerful. And also, I love it, but my kids love it every day. We read it every day for, like, three weeks now. We read it every other day, and I have to return it to the library, but I'm still.

[Frederick Joseph]

So anyways, I'm going to order it as soon as we get off of.

[Tracy Thomas]

Here, so it's so good. Oh, and if anybody's listening, I actually told Jazzy at Rep Club how much I love this book because we do a deal for book club books that people who order through Rep Club and use the code stacks 10 get 10% off. I don't get anything from it, but you guys do. And it's a great way to support my favorite bookstore and Jazzy's like, we'll just throw the code on Crab cake. So if you're listening and you want to get crab cake, use code stacks10 and you'll get 10% off if you order from Rep Club. Just this is like nothing. But you could order this thing of ours and Crab cake and get. Get both of these books. And then also my original point was to make sure it's in your local libraries. Frederick, thank you for being here.

[Frederick Joseph]

Thank you for having me.

[Tracy Thomas]

This was so fun. Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y' all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Frederick for joining the show. I'd also like to say thank you to Sarah DeSalvo for making this interview possible. Remember, our book club pick for for May is Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley, which we will discuss on Wednesday, May 28th with Kara Brown. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com Please make sure you are subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and you can, of course, check our [e-mail] Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Das with production assistance from Wia Frillo. Our graphic designer is Robin McBrite, and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas Are you looking for a new job or want a career change? Look no further than monster.com need a little help standing out? Our expert resume writing services will make sure you shine. Want to brush up on your interview skills? Engage with our AI Interview Prep tool. Want some advice on negotiating your new salary? Visit our salary tools and extensive library of career advice articles and you'll have all the tips and tricks you'll need to succeed. Visit Monster.com today and take the first step towards your career. Monster.com find your right job shop fit Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell? Thanks. Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify. Com listen shopify. Com listen.