Podcast Summary: The Stacks Ep. 372 – "Apropos of Nothing, There’s This Book" with Frederick Joseph

Release Date: May 21, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 372 of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes renowned writer Frederick Joseph to discuss his debut young adult (YA) novel, This Thing of Ours. The conversation delves into the intersectionality of writing in the YA space, the motivations behind Joseph’s decision to boycott Target for book sales, and his perspectives on literary canons and creative writing. The episode, recorded before the book’s official release, offers listeners an in-depth look into Joseph’s creative process and the socio-political themes embedded within his work.

Guest Background and Book Overview

Frederick Joseph, known for his nonfiction works for both adults and children, ventured into YA fiction with This Thing of Ours. The novel follows Ozzy, a young Black teenager attending a predominantly white prep school. After a career-ending injury from basketball, Ozzy transitions to the school’s writing program, only to find himself entangled in the contemporary debates surrounding book banning and the anti-woke movement.

Key Points:

• This Thing of Ours is a New York Times bestseller.
• The book addresses themes like race, censorship, and the resilience of Black youth.
• Set in 2023, the narrative captures the immediacy of current societal issues.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [01:17]: "Black Americans have the most expertise in this country when it comes to white American culture."

Motivations Behind Writing YA Fiction

Traci explores why Joseph chose to pen a YA novel after his extensive work in nonfiction and poetry. Joseph reveals that the inspiration struck while witnessing the banning of his earlier book, The Black Friend, in a Houston school district. Recognizing the need to address censorship in a more engaging format, he transitioned to fiction to reach younger audiences authentically.

Key Points:

• The novel serves as a response to real-world book banning incidents.
• Joseph emphasizes the importance of empowering young readers to stand against societal injustices.
• He highlights the significance of marginalized voices in shaping cultural conversations.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [08:00]: "I wanted young people to feel empowered to stand up not just against book bans, but against the litany of things happening in society."

Authenticity and Intersectionality in YA Writing

The discussion underscores the challenges and responsibilities of addressing multiple facets of identity and oppression within a YA framework. Joseph emphasizes the necessity of integrating realistic experiences of racism, homophobia, and systemic injustice to portray authentic narratives.

Key Points:

• Authentic representation is crucial for resonating with young readers.
• Incorporating intersectional issues provides a more comprehensive view of societal challenges.
• Joseph advocates for honesty in storytelling to differentiate his work from less engaged literature.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [13:20]: "In this extremely homophobic, extremely racist society, that is not honest writing."

Creative Writing Insights and Inspirations

Joseph shares his philosophy on creative writing, emphasizing the importance of honesty and authenticity. He cites influences like Kendrick Lamar and Frank Ocean for their genuine lyrical content, despite personal preferences.

Key Points:

• The best creative writing stems from truthful expression and emotional honesty.
• Joseph believes that integrating personal and cultural truths can elevate storytelling.
• He discusses the role of music and other art forms in inspiring his writing process.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [25:03]: "The most important thing you can do for a reader is be honest. If you can do that on the page, you resonate on a soul and spiritual level."

Target Boycott and Its Impact

A significant portion of the episode addresses Joseph’s decision to remove his books from Target stores in protest of their rollback of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) programs post-Trump’s election. This move, he explains, was both a personal and political statement aimed at leveraging economic power to effect change.

Key Points:

• Target accounts for approximately 40% of Joseph’s book sales.
• The boycott led to a 50% decrease in preorders during the pre-sale phase of This Thing of Ours.
• Joseph views the boycott as a way to inspire others, especially young people, to make conscientious purchasing decisions.
• He expresses hope that readers will support independent bookstores and alternative retailers.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [37:54]: "Stand for something or fall for everything."

Writing Process and Daily Rituals

Joseph provides insight into his disciplined writing routine, often engaging in marathon writing sessions lasting up to 15 hours. He discusses how music, particularly listening to documentaries like Ken Burns’ The Dust Bowl, aids his creative process and scene development.

Key Points:

• Joseph’s writing is deeply cathartic and rooted in personal experiences of hardship and resilience.
• He balances intense writing periods with reflective moments, ensuring continual creative flow.
• Music and external media play a pivotal role in shaping the emotional landscape of his narratives.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [53:48]: "If I can write for 15 hours at a time, it's actually problematic."

Future Projects and Literary Aspirations

Looking ahead, Joseph plans to expand his repertoire with a YA novel featuring two bipolar teenage girls, one Black and one Vietnamese, scheduled for fall 2026 with Penguin Random House. He also expresses interest in exploring adult literary fiction, inspired by contemporaries like Robert Jones Jr. and Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah.

Key Points:

• Upcoming YA projects will continue to explore diverse and complex identities.
• Joseph aims to contribute meaningfully to both literary and protest canons.
• He aspires to create pathways for new generations to discover and engage with canonical Black literature.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [51:56]: "I wanted this book to join the protest canon, the empowering canon."

Conclusion and Reflections

In wrapping up, Joseph reflects on the enduring influence of his grandmother, who inspired his writing journey. He underscores the importance of representing layered and realistic antagonists in literature, challenging monolithic portrayals of racism and prejudice.

Key Points:

• Personal inspirations play a critical role in shaping Joseph’s narratives.
• He strives for nuanced character development to reflect the complexities of real-life societal issues.
• Joseph remains committed to using his platform to foster meaningful dialogues and inspire change.

Notable Quote:

Frederick Joseph [65:26]: "If you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, it would be my grandmother. She taught me how to write."

Additional Highlights

• Literary Canons: Joseph hopes This Thing of Ours will be recognized alongside works by Walter Dean Myers, Octavia Butler, and James Baldwin, contributing to a more inclusive literary canon.

• Writing Challenges: Despite his prolific output, Joseph admits to grappling with spelling errors, adding a humanizing touch to his persona.

• Community Engagement: Both Traci and Joseph emphasize the importance of supporting independent bookstores and utilizing platforms like Bookshop.org to ensure wide accessibility of diverse literature.

Closing Thoughts

Episode 372 of The Stacks offers a compelling exploration of Frederick Joseph’s debut YA novel, blending personal anecdotes with broader discussions on race, censorship, and the power of honest storytelling. For those interested in contemporary YA literature that addresses pressing societal issues, this episode serves as an enlightening resource.

For more details on This Thing of Ours and to join the conversation, visit www.thestackspodcast.com. Don't forget to tune in next month for the book club discussion on Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley.