Loading summary
Transcript125 lines
- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Hi everybody, it's me, Tracy, here to tell you about a book that I think you're gonna love. It is called the Great Man. It's a novel by Keira Davis Lurie. It is a diverse retelling of the Great Gatsby, set among the black elite of post war Los Angeles, and is inspired by real life historic events. Pause for a moment. Does that not sound like me? Real life historic events, a retelling of a classic and set in Los Angeles. It follows Charlie Tramell, a young veteran who is lured by his cousin Marguerite to the esteemed West Adams Heights, aka LA's newly rechristened Sugar Hill. There is black opulence, there is success, there is old money intertwined with white privilege. And Charlie finds himself drawn into this tantalizing world of possibilities where he meets James Reaper Mann. As Charlie navigates a landscape rife with ambition, betrayal and societal turmoil, he soon finds himself beside Reaper, facing a piv little decision that could end in tragedy. Hello. This is giving amazing coinciding with the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby, Davis Lurie's book masterfully reimagines the opulence and social dynamics of F. Scott Fitzgerald's classic novel within the real world backdrop of LA's Sugar Hill. Offering a compelling exploration of wealth and class. The Great Man, a novel by Kira Davis Lurie, is available now wherever books are are sold.
- [01:26]
Mia McKenzie
When I started writing the book, it was around the time when the leak came out that the Supreme Court was going to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I knew then that it was going to be relevant very soon in many, many ways. Historical fiction should feel more historical than this, right? I wasn't setting out to write something that was so current, you know, as I'm, as I'm living in 2025 and watching all the things and hearing all the things and kind of dealing with all the things that everyone else is dealing with in this moment. Yeah, it's frustrating, you know, it's frustrating to feel like things, you know, haven't changed as much as we fooled ourselves into believing that they had.
- [02:16]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracey Thomas, and today I am joined by award winning author Mia McKenz. Mia is also the creator of Black Girl Dangerous, a media project that centers queer and trans people of color. Her newest book, these Heathens, take us on a weekend journey to Atlanta with a 17 year old girl named Doris who is trying to get an abortion in the 1960s. Today Mia and I talk about writing historical fiction, which includes real life figures, her representation of the queer community and why it's so important, and how her grandmother inspired her main character, Doris. A quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, you can head to patreon.com thestacks to join our bookish community, the Stacks Pack. And be sure to subscribe to my newsletter, tracythomas.substack.com for more Hot takes on books and pop culture. Now it's time for my conversation with Mia McKenzie. All right, everybody, I am so excited. I am joined Today by Mia McKenzie. She is the author of the brand new book, these Heathens. She's also the author of other books, but today we're going to talk about this brand new book, these Heathens. So, Mia, welcome to the Stacks.
- [03:35]
Mia McKenzie
Thank you so much, Tracy, for having me.
- [03:37]
Tracy Thomas
I'm really excited to have you. I, we. I want to say, what year did sky falling come out? 2021.
- [03:43]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, 2021.
- [03:45]
Tracy Thomas
So. So in 2021, you were in our 10 best books of the Year episode. You were featured as one of our 10 best books.
- [03:52]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, it's cool.
- [03:53]
Tracy Thomas
So. So it's nice to have you here for this new book which hopefully will make the list again.
- [03:57]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, fingers crossed.
- [03:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Will you tell folks we always start here in about 30 seconds or so. Will you just tell us about these heathens?
- [04:06]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah. So these Heathens is what you get when comedy and historical fiction mess around in the backseat of a 1960s Studebaker convertible. That's basically how I'm it. So it tells the story of Doris Steele, a character I based on my own grandmother, who also shares her name. Doris is a very religious and also quite horny small town teenager who asks her favorite teacher to help her get an abortion. So they go to Atlanta, where Doris finds herself suddenly immersed in, you know, the civil rights movement, which is happening, a lot of stuff happening right then with the, the student, with student activism. And she also finds herself kind of in the midst of the hidden lives of queer black people. And she's from, you know, she's very small town religious, and this is very, very scandalous to her. So, you know, she comes face to face with remarkable figures like Bayard Rustin and Coretta Scott King and Diane Nash and Martin Luther King Jr. They all show up and others and she comes face to face like with herself, you know, she with dreams for her life that she didn't even know she had. She sort of didn't even know how to dream about life. So it's a story about choice. It's a story about what becomes possible when women get to make decisions about our lives. And it's a story about what happens when Martin Luther King flirts with you over a plate of ribs. 60 years later. You have to still explain to everybody that he's not the one who knocked you up.
- [05:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Oh, my God, I love that. The book has such a fantastic opening page. It basically starts there. The book starts with, like, he's not the father.
- [05:39]
Mia McKenzie
Right.
- [05:40]
Tracy Thomas
And I just thought it was so great. And I'm curious how you, as a writer, as a storyteller, how you think about the beginnings of your books. How important is it for you to get the beginning right? Or are you a person that says the beginning just has to be there? It's my job to sort of build the rest of the book. And. And if you are a beginning, has to be right person, how do you know when the beginning. How do you know when you get it right?
- [06:04]
Mia McKenzie
Such good questions. I mean, I think I tend to look, at least now at novel writing. For me, my process is very much making sure I know what's going to happen in the middle and that I'm getting the middle right and putting kind of a lot of thought and energy into that. Even in the beginning, when I'm figuring out what the book is, I know now if I don't have a middle, I don't have a book. I just have an idea. And so. But that being said, you know, to me, beginnings are easy. You know, beginnings are, like, so, like, inspired. And so, you know, you have this idea, you have this concept you have. These characters are coming to you. And for me, the beginning always just sort of comes together. It's kind of this really easy thing. And so I don't think I think too much about how a story begins. I think my stories begin in different ways, but that's always felt like it's just kind of flowing, I think the way if I'm thinking about a beginning, I'm always starting with character, though. I always want to sort of be able to show the reader, who is this character? Who are you going to spend all this time with? Or who are these, you know, these main characters? And particularly in Sky Falling and in this book, which both have, you know, sort of kind of one main character, you know, and a strong voice, really wanting to see, to showcase the voice of the character, too, that you're going to be with for. For the duration of the book. And make sure. Making sure you kind of, you know what this person sounds like and who they are. Right from, you know, the first sentence.
- [07:37]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. If middle is the thing for you that you are the most concerned with, how do you know when you get that right? What. What's your process like for fleshing the whole thing out? How much are you. I guess the question is, like, how much is the middle a struggle for you? Or is it something that you're more thinking about, like, in an outline phase?
- [08:01]
Mia McKenzie
I'm thinking about it in an outline phase. So the way that I work now is that I want it. I want to outline the whole thing. I want to know everything that's going to happen. And then, of course, in the writing process, many other things end up happening. So it's not necessarily what you thought it was going to be in the outline, but at least when I'm going in, I want to know what I think this is book is going to be. And so I'm thinking about the middle there in that first. Those. That first outline, even before it's an outline, really, when I'm just sort of putting it together in my head. And I guess I know when I get it right, when it. When it feels like nothing is. There's no holes, I guess there's no sort of empty space in the story where I feel like everything that's happening is moving the story forward. There's no sort of lag. I feel like, you know, the scariest thing is you don't want to write a book, and in the middle, it just starts to kind of drag there.
- [08:54]
Tracy Thomas
No, you don't want to do that, and you don't want to read that.
- [08:57]
Mia McKenzie
Right, exactly. Because that's how you lose a reader. Like, nobody wants to read that. And so getting that right. So you know that there's a momentum that you're creating. You know, you're starting in the beginning and you want to just keep. You want it to just get better and better. And it's just. It's just like all of the themes that you're working with, they're just getting more and more clear. You know, tensions are ratcheting up and more and more depending on, you know, kind of what you're writing and what your story is. Stuff is happening in a big way. When you get to the middle, it's kind of like, this is where stuff should be happening in a big, big way to kind of start to drive you through the most important parts of the story. And so I know I'm doing that right when I. When I'm excited about that. It's really easy to be excited about the beginning. Like. Like I said, it's just so inspired, and it's all new, and it's so fresh in the characters, and it's all just. Everything is great. But to feel really inspired in the middle, when you're kind of getting into the really important stuff about the book, the things that you're trying to say, and to be excited about that part, I think that's how I know that I'm doing something that's working.
- [10:03]
Tracy Thomas
And then we haven't talked about the endings at all. How do you think about endings?
- [10:07]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, endings are tricky. Endings are just kind of like. Because, you know, not. Not as hard as middles. But I would say I. Sometimes I don't know how I want to end. I don't know, like, where I always want it to go. But again, I try to figure it out in the outline, so I'm sort of prepared for it.
- [10:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I have to say, this book has such beautiful beginning, middle, and end. Like I do as a reader. I was reading it so quickly. I was so locked in. And we kind of get to that. That third quarter, I was just like, oh, my God, what is gonna happen? Like, what is going on?
- [10:50]
Mia McKenzie
That's what you want. That's what you want to do better. That really, really be working.
- [10:55]
Tracy Thomas
And the third quarter, I think, is. Is probably. Yeah, like, it's probably the most important to me as a reader. And I. And I just feel like you. I sort of knew you were an outline writer. In reading the book, I was like, oh, Mia McKenzie has a very clear idea of what she wants to happen in this book. And I appreciate that as a reader, because you feel taken care of. I was like, I don't know where this is going, but I know it's going somewhere that I'm gonna be, like, interested in. Because, you know, sometimes you read a book and you're like, where is this going? I. I might want to quit soon, you know? And it's like, those are two very different. Where is this going? And I just felt very, you know, I felt safe. I felt like Doris was safe. Like, I wasn't worried about anybody, and it was just, like, such a lovely time. So I appreciate the care that you put into it.
- [11:44]
Mia McKenzie
Thank you. I'm glad that it comes through for sure.
- [11:47]
Tracy Thomas
I want to talk about historical fiction. So in this book, as you mentioned, obviously, Doris is based on your grandmother, but she's a fictional character. There's a lot of fictional characters, but we are bumping up against some real life legends and icons. So what is your obligation? How did you feel responsible to taking care of their real lives and their legacies as you sort of put them into this fictional world? World?
- [12:13]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think so everyone who appears in the story who is a real person, you know, these are all people who I respect. And so when you're. When you're writing historical or when I'm writing historical fiction and there's real people showing up, that makes a lot of difference. If they're people that you. That you respect and you want to. Yeah, I don't want to talk shit about Martin Luther King, you know. Yeah.
- [12:41]
Tracy Thomas
That would be what we call an unpopular opinion.
- [12:43]
Mia McKenzie
Right, right. But at the same time, I want to show. I mean, there's no point in me putting in a version of Martin Luther King. That's just what you already expect. And, you know, this sort of like. Yeah, that's not gonna be surprising in any way. That's not gonna be something that you haven't already seen. That's just kind of the encyclopedia version already.
- [13:03]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [13:03]
Mia McKenzie
Cause as a writer, what's interesting about that, like, why show up to. To this version of Martin Luther King? Just to get that or any of the other characters in the book who are based, who are real life people. So I want to find something in each character that is, I guess, surprising, that is new, but also based on my research about things that they might have said and done. Right. So I'm not just making up, completely making up something that's just like, so outrageous that they would never have said or participated in, in any way. I'm looking at things that. Conversations that they've had, you know, people who said, oh, I talked to this person, I talked to them about this. I had a conversation with Coretta Scott King about that, you know, in some memoir or some interview and finding these little pieces of things that people have said that to help you start to create a larger picture. Because. Yeah, because everything that's happening in the book with these historical figures, it's all. It's all sort of. None of it is in the public eye. It's all. It's all happening in conversations with people behind closed doors, you know, just kind of in. In personal space. So. Yeah. So I feel like my obligation. I don't know that I think I have an obligation necessarily. I don't. I Don't know that I think of it in terms of obligation, except to, you know, show show respect to people who I do respect. But then also, this is also comedic fiction. You know, this is also funny. It's also, you know, it's not meant to be a history lesson. You know, it has a lot of historical elements, for sure, but it's also funny. It's goofy. You know, Martin Luther King is, you know, eating ribs and, like, licking the sauce off his fingertip. Like, he's gonna be doing that in this book. You know, it's not gonna be some very only sort of very reverent portrayal of him or anyone else. I'm looking for the interesting stuff. I'm looking for the real people behind the icons.
- [14:58]
Tracy Thomas
Totally. It sort of reminded me of, like, black girl. Forest Gump, right?
- [15:04]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah.
- [15:04]
Tracy Thomas
You know, where it's like. It's, like, sort of goofy and, like, he's on his own journey, but he's bumping into all of these important people. Or, like, he's part of these important moments. Because she's bumping into all these people, and she's sort of seeing them in a way that we don't get to see them normally. And it's sort of. It was. It's. That's, like one of my favorite sort of genres of fiction is, like. For. I call them, like, Forrest Gump books, where it's like, this main character is in a world that we're familiar with. I don't know if you've read Rashid Newsom's book, My Government Means to Kill Me. I haven't, but. Oh, it's so good. And it's sort of like this black, queer Forrest Gump in Harlem in New York City. And I think Bayard Rustin is also in that book as well, actually. Yeah. Yeah. He's. He's sort of in all these books. But your book reminds me of. Of Rashid's book. And they're both so much fun, and they have the comedy, and they have these, like, historical figures. And though he has some bad. Bad people in his book. Like, bad historical figures.
- [16:04]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah.
- [16:04]
Tracy Thomas
Anyways, do you. It sounds like you do quite a bit of research to find these nuggets. What does that look like for you, your research process?
- [16:14]
Mia McKenzie
Oh, boy. Lots of scouring the Internet for little tidbits of things. A lot of interview, looking for people from the time, from the civil rights movement, from particularly the student movement that was happening in the 1960s, talking about things. I found a lot of cool oral histories from different archives and museums and Also different books on. There's so many just small details in nonfiction books about the civil rights movement. Sort of reading really, really closely and finding little, little things. So when I'm in the book, there's. When Doris goes and spends time with the folks who are doing self defense for the activists, you know, carrying guns and making sure that they're safe as they're doing their nonviolent organizing. You know, I read a lot about those people and the work that they did and the conversations that they had about it and the way that they talked about it. Um, that's kind of my favorite some. That's some of my favorite stuff in the, in the story. So, yeah, lots of reading books, reading, like I said, interviews and kind of scouring stuff. I mean, you know, it's. It's a long, you know, writing historical fiction. It is a heavily research based thing, but also fun. I mean, I love it. I love the subject matter. I love all the questions that come up about that time and. But it's trick, you know, it's tricky because as a person living in now, you know, with the perfect vision of, you know, 2020 vision that I have now looking back and be, you know, so I have my kind of view of it as a person who kind of knows how it turned out, you know. But writing about, you know, in a time where nobody knows how it turns out, you know, is also a tricky thing.
- [18:10]
Tracy Thomas
How do you navigate that?
- [18:12]
Mia McKenzie
I tried to honor the different perspectives that I knew were happening then. So it's not as if, for example, everyone at the time thought the particular movements of the student movement, the particular nonviolent resistant movements, not everybody was on board with that in the first place.
- [18:31]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [18:32]
Mia McKenzie
So it's not. So I don't have to like pretend that everyone was right. People in the book are like, I don't know about this. Right. But just kind of, I think honoring that. I think there's a way in which, you know, the whitewashing of the civil rights movement and black liberation movements would have us believe that it was all, you know, it was all nonviolent organizing. It was all Martin Luther King. Everybody, all the black folks were totally on board with that. And so some of it too is just kind of setting the record straight of like, oh no, actually there was other stuff going on and there were, there were other thoughts about it and opinions about it. And so that's also really interesting to me. But yeah, I think I just tried to bother. Honor the time and understand the different ways that people were thinking about the movement at that time, and then also, I guess, bring questions into it of like, are these the right choices actually? And not answer, not say yes or no, but to just make sure that that question is being asked in the book.
- [19:34]
Tracy Thomas
I feel like, as I was reading the book this week, you know, every time I read historical fiction, I feel this way. I'm like, everything old is new again. But in this particular moment in 2025, I live in Los Angeles, so I'm currently watching, as I think the rest of the country is, what is going on with these ICE raids, the conversation around violence and nonviolence and property damage. And, you know, I am alive in 2025. And the conversations around abortion and the conversations around coronavirus, queer and trans rights and representation and women's liberation and all of these things. As I'm reading your book, I'm like, wow, we're still doing this. We're still doing this. So I'm wondering for you, I mean, I guess, when did you start working on this book? And as a person alive now, how were you impacted by current events as you were writing about events taking place 65 years ago? Seven. 65 years ago?
- [20:34]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, I mean, I started when I started writing the book. It was around the time when the leak came out that the Supreme Court was going to overturn Roe v. Wade. They hadn't overturned it, but, you know, it got leaked that they were going to. And I. That's. That's around the time just before. Just before then was when I started to kind of envision the book and think about what I wanted the book to be. And. Yeah. Yeah. So I knew then that it was going to be, you know, and not just with abortion, but things were just getting real wonky. Right. Things are getting, in all kinds of ways, real wonky. So I knew this is going to be really relevant, you know, very soon in many, many ways. Yeah. And I also. I think I had the same experience of just being like this again. You know, like, I don't want this to be so relevant. You know, it sucks that this is so relevant. You know, we shouldn't have to be doing, you know, historical fiction should feel more historical than this.
- [21:37]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [21:39]
Mia McKenzie
I wasn't setting out to write something that was. That was so current. So, yeah, I mean, I think I feel about it, you know, as I'm living in 2025 and watching all the things and hearing all the things and kind of dealing with all the things that everyone else is dealing with in this moment. Yeah, it's frustrating. You know, it's frustrating to feel like things, you know, haven't changed as much as we fooled ourselves into believing that they had. And I think that's one thing that's really interesting about the novel is that, like, this question of, like, choice, right. These choices that we're making, these choices that they're making at the time in 1960, you know, in pursuit of freedom, you can only do what you can do. You know, you can kind of just, you can kind of give it your best effort. And how it kind of turns out, you can't really know, you know, which is sad, you know, which is hard and sad and kind of the, you know, the human condition of kind of having to fight all the time and thinking that maybe you're getting somewhere and then, you know, it's 65 years later and, yeah, it doesn't feel. It doesn't really feel that way. So, yeah, I think I love the book. I'm excited about the book. The book is so funny and so wonderful and really doesn't in many ways. It's not, it's not a heavy, you know, it's not a heavy novel. It's.
- [23:02]
Tracy Thomas
No, it's not, though.
- [23:03]
Mia McKenzie
It deals with these heavy themes. It's hopeful. And it sucks that we're, you know, work that we're kind of facing these moments. So, I mean, there's a way in which folks will say, well, we've always been facing them. And that's true. We never quite stopped facing them. But the ways in which these things are just so boldly out there again, just so in our faces all over again is. Yeah, it's, you know, it's a lot.
- [23:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. Hello. Hello, party people. It is I, Tracy Thomas, your host, and I'm here to tell you about a really fun thing that I did. It's called the Nonfiction Reading Guide. It's the second annual one. It is 30 books long. It is all unputdownable nonfiction that I love, and it is yours if you join the stacks, pack on Patreon and Slash, or subscribe to my newsletter, TracyThomas substack.com the guide is amazing. And when you subscribe to either or both of those places, you get access to it, but you also get access to bonus episodes. Now, if you want to have a little bit more of a bookish community, the Patreon is going to be the place for you. That's where we're doing our virtual book club meetups. That's where we're talking on the Discord. That's where we're talking about the Mega challenge. Go to patreon.com the stacks. Join us there if you're thinking, you know what? I really just want to read Tracy's thoughts. I want to know what's going on in the stacks. The book she's reading, the Pop culture hot Takes. You're going to be better served by going to Tracy Thomas substack.com and subscribing to the newsletter. And for those of you who are like, I can't do it right now, you could join the newsletter for free, but you won't get all of the perks. I'm just throwing that out there. Either way, by supporting the show, you're supporting me, a black woman Run in. No, just whatever. Either way, I appreciate you and your support. Check out Patreon Check out Substack Happy listening. Have you ever noticed that Purple Shop pay button and how easy it makes buying something online? Bet you didn't know that this purple button is the telltale sign that a store is powered by Shopify. Well, Shopify doesn't just make it easy to buy, it makes it incredibly easy to start a business. No matter your experience, there's a reason that Purple Shop pay button is so loved. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US whether you're a big brand or just getting started, they make it feel approachable from day one. You can pick a template that fits your vibe, skip the coding and have your store up fast. Everything runs from one place. Inventory, payments, analytics, and even email marketing. And that Purple Shop pay button you've probably used as a customer. It's not just easy, it's the highest converting checkout on the Internet. Your customers already trust it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the Stack all lowercase go to shopify.com the Stacks shopify.com the Stacks hey everybody, I'm back to tell you about Lumi Gummies. Imagine if edibles just made you feel good instead of too high, consistent, mellow and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that is right for you. As you all know, I am a reader. Reading is my job. I also really like to sleep. And both of those things seem to be getting harder and harder as I deal with gestures wildly the rest of the world. Microdosing Gummies can be a real game changer. If you want to curl up, if you want to let everything else melt away, if you want to focus in on a good story, these gummies can help. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com, that's L gummies.com and use the code the stacks for 30% off your order. Again, that's L gummies.Com code the stacks lumigummies.com code the stacks. Okay, we're back and I want to talk about Doris, our main character who you mentioned is inspired by your grandmother. Can you say a little bit more about her about that?
- [27:32]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah. So my grandmother, who was wonderful and awesome and is based on Doris in many ways. She shares Doris just way with words. My grandmother had just incredible way to turn a phrase and to describe something a lot of which is in the book then comes out of Doris mouth. And I was once talking to my grandmother. So my grandmother had five children, and four of them were born in Philly, where I'm from. And one of them, she had young. When she was younger, she was still in Georgia, my uncle. So I never knew growing up who my uncle's father was. And I always wondered. I don't know that I always wondered. But eventually, as I got older, I wondered about it because nobody ever talked about it. Nobody ever said anything about it. And so one day I was an adult and I was visiting my grandmother. And I don't know, I just got up the courage. It felt I was a little bit nervous to get in her business like that because nobody talked about it. And so I asked her, I said, you know, I asked who his father was, and she said, oh, nobody, and kind of waved me away. And so I thought, well, that could have many different, you know, there could be a lot of reasons for that kind of reaction. That could be, you know, a try, you know, something traumatic happened. And it also just could be, oh, you know, some, some. Some no good, you know, some not worth talking about individual. But. And then she kind of, you know, she said that and that was the end of the conversation. I just let it go after that. But I just always thought about it. And. And then as. As the story I write about my grandmother a lot, there's other characters. The character in my first novel also based on her. She's just a really interesting person. And as this story began to come together. I just thought about this idea of, like, the father was nobody, you know, and how in a story that. That comes to life. That's kind of where it started from this the father is nobody idea. And so what questions might arise if her position is the father is nobody. Right. You know, you can't. You. You especially for a young black woman saying the father is nobody. Well, people are going to have questions. They're not going to just let you, you know, say the father is nobody and leave you alone and go about their business. They're going to be way up in your business about it. And so then, yeah, all that sort of starts to come together from that. From that position of, okay, well, what questions are people gonna ask? What stories might come of that? What rumors might come of that? Who is she around? What dots are people going to connect in the wrong ways to get you to something quite outrageous, but in a really fun and interesting way?
- [30:22]
Tracy Thomas
Is it a challenge for you as a writer to write about a person or like to write a story where a main person in the book is nobody?
- [30:33]
Mia McKenzie
Well, I mean, I think what I tried to do was to not make, you know, the. That they're not the, you know, that they're kind of. It really is. No, it really doesn't matter. You know, this sort of position of, Doris, is. This is my business, Right. It's not your business. And that's really it. You know, it's a thing where someone is pregnant. So there must be a father, right? There must be someone. But also, it doesn't matter. You know, we're not. That's not what this story is about. So. No, that felt pretty easy to do.
- [31:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. One of the things that comes up a lot in the book is Doris getting information from magazines and Jet and Ebony. And it happens so often. There'll be a person and she's like, oh, I just read about them and this, or I just heard about this and that. And I'm wondering, I. I just curious about that piece of it. What. Why did you want to include those magazines? And also, what do you think that having her be a magazine girly gives her or tells us about her?
- [31:32]
Mia McKenzie
Well, you know, in 1960, that you don't have a lot of options for how you get your information about things, you know, so. And she's also. She's poor. You know, she lives in a. In a. In a little tiny rural town. She doesn't have a television, you know, to watch tv. She has to go down to her. Her friend's house. Who has, like, the only television, you know, in the neighborhood, right? And so, you know, when I was growing up in the 1980s, we got Jet and Ebony, you know, all the time. And I did have tv, but there wasn't a lot of talk, you know, about black people on tv. You know, there's not. There wasn't. TV was very, very, very, extremely white. And you didn't get, like, if you wanted to know about the black celebrities and what they were up to, you had to. You had to look at Ebony and Jett. Like, that's where it was. And so I remember as a kid, we had just, you know, stacks of them. You know, we would get them, and then we would keep them, and we would look at them again and again, because that's the only place that we could find that stuff. And so, yeah, certainly in 1960, that was the case if you wanted to. You know, there was no show that was gonna be highlighting black performers and stuff. So, yeah, using Ebony and JET as kind of a way into that. Into that world, and what Doris would have seen and read and known about these people was really fun and, you know, felt really nostalgic for me because I used to look at, you know, in the 80s, it was like. I used to love looking at Jet because they would have. Debbie Allen would be in it all the time. And I always say Debbie Allen made me gay. Like, Debbie Allen is like. You know, like, was, like my first crush when I. You know, when I was a little kid. But, yeah, I used to, like, scour every day if there was, like, Debbie on the COVID or Debbie somewhere in there, I was gonna be just, like, all over that magazine. Um, and so that. Yeah, it was really fun to kind of add that. That piece to it.
- [33:27]
Tracy Thomas
I loved it. I loved it so much. I mean, I. I mean, again, another conversation that we're having right now about media, and, like, it just felt so. I don't know of the moment. Even though we. As you said before, you know, unfortunately, these fights are going on constantly. But I just loved. I loved seeing it. I loved how everything she knew she got from. From the magazines. And it's just. And I think also, like, because she has this way with words, I was thinking, like, you know, I'm sure she's learning about words as she's reading these magazines too. Like, she's learning how to be a storyteller, which is such an important part of her story. So, I mean, you just mentioned that Debbie Allen made you gay. And there's these. There's these great you know, there's this great piece of the book which I don't want to say too much about how it comes in because I do think that's, like, slightly spoilery. But there are these queer communities in the book that we get to see in ways that, that are not often depicted in these ways in, in books or in media. And so I'm curious about, without saying too much about these. About this queer black community in Atlanta.
- [34:34]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm queer and I write really queer stuff. And so, you know, in, in writing this book when I knew that the main character was going to be based on my grandmother and kind of this story about the, you know, the pregnancy and getting an abortion, which is made up, that didn't happen, but. Because my uncle exists, but, but when I knew, you know, this was. This was this was going to be that story, I still, for me as a writer, like, I want a queer. I want a lot of queer stuff happening in a novel if I can get it. And so thinking about, you know, if she's going to Atlanta, which is, you know, everyone knows, is like a queer black, an important queer black place, and has always been. And now, of course, more outwardly. So. Right. But even then, that's still going to have been there. And so I was excited to kind of look into what queer black life would have been like at that time in Atlanta and so creating this story about, you know, Sylvia and kind of the life that she lives there and her. And her, her friends. And so I had this, this idea of like a party and queer people. And all of this came to me really. That's one of the first things that I envisioned for the story. And I was just really excited to talk about, you know, to have Bayard Rustin and to have these. This kind of awesome queer, like, almost underground or, you know, secret stuff. But to be able to be there, to be there in the room with it. Yeah, it's. It was. That's one. That's one of my favorite things about the book. And I also just love having people have these conversations and these, these really important conversations about the things that are happening at the time. People kind of talking about their lives in this way that you imagine that they would have.
- [36:26]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [36:26]
Mia McKenzie
And. But you get to kind of be right there and hearing it.
- [36:29]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's a version of this book where, where there. That part of the book doesn't exist. Right. There's a version where it's just Doris story and we don't get to see this other kind of, like, insight into the world, into the time. And I think what you've done so beautifully is that just like you were saying before, with the Civil Rights movement and the different conversations, it's like we're getting to see different conversations of black Atlanta in the 1960s where we could see Sylvia and it could be very straight and very still interesting, but, like, not surprising. And this was. So. This was just such an. Surprise and a delightful one for me as a reader to think about, you know, how were people able to be prominent figures in the black community and also be outwardly queer amongst their communities? And I. I just really was delighted by these sections.
- [37:27]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah. And it's. So. It was really great to write. And, you know, Coretta Scott King, who appears in the. In the novel and is my favorite. My favorite of the icons who appear in the novel. And the first one, I knew I wanted to have Corey. Yeah, I wanted to have. I knew I wanted to have her in there, you know, but. But Coretta Scott King, who's a very. Just, you know, she just was a fascinating person. Really, really interesting, fascinating person. And, you know, she had excellent politics, you know, and. And had a lot of gay friends and. And. And was all about the gay rights. And so I'm looking at Coretta Scott King being all about the gay rights. And I'm going, well, she must have, you know, like that, you know, like, what was she doing in 1960? Probably has some gay friends, you know, like, I know. I know black Atlanta was. Was just. I know there's plenty of gay black people there. And so if she's there and they. There, there, they're there. And she is a person who believes in gay rights and went on to, you know, advocate for gay rights, then I know that didn't start, you know, in the 80s, you know, like, I know that was already happening.
- [38:27]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [38:27]
Mia McKenzie
And so then that leads me into the question of, okay, well, what. How. How do I connect those things? Like, how. And so then Coretta Scott becomes sort of the. The way we sort of link the two things. Right? Yeah. Which is great. And I'm really excited about. I just love her. I love her. Like, I'm like, you know, and I'm really excited that she has appeared in my novel. Yeah, I feel very honored that she appeared in my novel.
- [38:54]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. And I love. Because, you know, what happens so much, I think, in. In books and in storytelling is that we are told that something was seen differently in the past. And so that's the way that it was like, I think about how we're told about slavery, and it's like, well, it was just a different time and people just owned other people and that's how it was. And it's like, o, okay, so you're just erasing all the people who knew that slavery was a bad thing at the time. And I feel like what your book does is it pushes back against this idea of, like, homosexuality was so taboo and nobody was gay and everybody was straight and everybody was married. And it's like, okay, yeah, people were married for sure, but also the gay people have existed and they didn't just pop up in the 1980s, right?
- [39:46]
Mia McKenzie
Like, people be gay, people be gay.
- [39:48]
Tracy Thomas
People be gay, gay, gay will be gay. Like, and I think that this is. I just feel like it's just it. Again, I keep saying delightful. I'm like, smiling as I say this, but I just felt like the representation felt so rooted and grounded and not like, oh, this person from the future is coming back to, like, have an agenda or whatever some awful person would say. But it's like this, of course, this is what was going on, right? And it, you know, and I think about also, like, 1930s Germany and how during the Weimar Republic, like, that was a super gay time in Berlin. Right? And it's like. And. And that this is sort of a version of that that we get to see. And it's like, right, we. It's always happened. It's always been a part of our communities and our society, and it's fun to get to go back and see it just, like, exist.
- [40:39]
Mia McKenzie
Right. I mean, by Rustin was out, like, he was.
- [40:42]
Tracy Thomas
He was out.
- [40:42]
Mia McKenzie
He was an out.
- [40:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, Right.
- [40:44]
Mia McKenzie
You know, and so they'd have you.
- [40:46]
Tracy Thomas
Think that it was like, just him, like, he was just the only gay man ever, and he, like, actually wasn't in any gay relationships because he was just like the. You know, like, it's like, right, this idea.
- [40:57]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, I. Yeah, but I just think that, like, the fact that he was out, though, you know, even. Even if you're. Even if you fool yourself into thinking he was the only one, he was rolling deep with these icons, these other icons, too, and they were right. That, you know, like. And so it's not so you can't. You can't sort of pretend that, like, you know, that you think they were just like, we are just very against everything about you, Byron, but let's work together. Let's just like, work together so closely, like, on everything that we do, even though we completely Disapprove of you. Like, no, that's not how it was. You know, like, there is a different story. And if you look and you. You do your research and you actually understand the ways that people work together and like. And also, just like there is in. Particularly in black culture and community and history, there's always been gay people just everywhere. Just everywhere, like every church. I don't know if y' all been to black church, but there's just a lot of gay people there. And there've always been a lot of gay people there. And there's just never been, you know, if you're looking at, you know, the civil rights movement, which a lot of it, you know, churches were big, were places where a lot of things were organized and took place, and there are just going to have been many, many, many gay people there, because there always have been. And so when I'm doing my research and I'm going back and I'm finding these conversations and I'm looking at the things that, for example, again, Coretta Scott King was involved in throughout her life, the things that she cared about throughout her life. Like, I know I can put the pieces together. I can connect the dots and say that this is a reasonable. This is a reasonable thing to imagine she would have felt and said and done. Even if people want to, you know, pretend that that's not the way things happen.
- [42:50]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Because people love to sort of project these. Their own ideas and thoughts and prejudices on historical figures based on, you know, this was the time, like, okay, well, you know, so speaking of. I guess this isn't really speaking of, but I do want to talk about the title and the COVID of this book. The book is called these Heathens. Tell Us About. I mean, the title comes up pretty quickly in the book, and the word heathens comes up a few times throughout the book, which, first of all, just like, such a good word.
- [43:21]
Mia McKenzie
Yes, heathens.
- [43:23]
Tracy Thomas
It's good in the mouth. It feels good as you say it. It looks good on the page. I just love it. But how did you come with the title, these Heathens? Was that always the title of the book?
- [43:31]
Mia McKenzie
That wasn't the title. That wasn't always the title. And it was a bit of a process. I do find titles difficult to come up with because I'm trying to sort of. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to feel like something is sort of capturing everything. So originally the title was Doris Steele, which is the name of the main character. Main character, which is my grandmother's maiden name. And I was very attached to that name because it's very sentimental, obviously, to me. And my editor actually was like, you know, I feel like the title doesn't stick with people enough. Um, you know, and she's like, how is it? She's not like, change it or anything, but she's like, you know, are you really married to this? Like, you know, and I was like, yes, ma' am. I'm married to it. You know, but then, you know, I also. I'm not the person who needs to be convinced to read the book. So I'm also, you know, like, okay, well, let me think about it. Let me think about some other possibilities. So we did some brainstorming, my editor and I and my agent, and we. And we came up with some possibilities. And then it was really this process of, like, voting. You know, I asked my friends a bunch of, you know, we had a bunch of different titles, and which one do you like the best? I liked these Heathens a lot, but there was a couple others I liked also. And so it just became this kind of thing where a lot of people of my friends voted for these heathens. And there was another one they liked a lot that I'm not going to be remembering the name of the. What would.
- [44:55]
Tracy Thomas
That. I wanted you to remember so bad. I want to know.
- [44:58]
Mia McKenzie
Let me think. Okay. These Heathens. And what was it? I don't know. I don't know.
- [45:06]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [45:08]
Mia McKenzie
But yeah, it was this and something else. And then I think I decided on this because it's very voicey. It's very much in Doris voice. She does talk about heathens, and she's always calling somebody heathen.
- [45:19]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [45:20]
Mia McKenzie
And it's, like, funny. And I also just feel like black people get. Especially black people get what this means. You know, they really get this concept of, like, these heathens, like.
- [45:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [45:31]
Mia McKenzie
So that felt really, really like the right thing. Once I chose it, I was like, okay, this. I think this is the one. I like it. And then over time, I love it. Like, I was saying to my editor just a couple of weeks ago, like, I'm so glad that we. That we chose this title. Like, I love it. It's so perfect. Yeah, it's great.
- [45:49]
Tracy Thomas
I love it. And did you have anything to do with the COVID Were you at all involved in that process?
- [45:54]
Mia McKenzie
So my thing is I don't want to be involved in the COVID process, but somehow I always get pulled into it, But I don't want to be involved in it because I just have too many opinions. And I just feel like, you know, I'm not a cover expert. Like, don't ask me. Like, I'm going to have 50 opinions and, like, what do I even know? Sky Folly. I feel like the sky falling cover is literally exactly what I asked for it to be. And that feels good because it's a really, really cool cover and I love it. It turned out great. But this cover, the. I love this cover. And it is not. It is not. I have no input into it, except, like, there was an earlier cover that I have had a lot of input into it, and it just didn't end up working out. And so I was like, I'm returning to my position of please don't ask me. Please don't ask me. Y' all got this. Y' all are the experts. And my editor and all the. All the talented people at Random House came up with this. And I love. Also. I just love it. I love it. It's so cool. It just fits the. The time period so well. It's, like, so queer, like, right there on the COVID It's got, you know, yeah, the black celebrity elements to it. Atlanta, the whole thing. So, yeah, I love this thing. It's great.
- [47:06]
Tracy Thomas
I love the COVID too. I think it's such a nice. I mean, it's like such a good package between the title and the COVID and then obviously what's inside, you know, is as good as. So it's really a delightful read. Is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was?
- [47:22]
Mia McKenzie
No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, the thing about a novel is you can write it forever. You know, you can just keep writing and keep writing it. There's just so many things you can say and so much you can do. But I think. Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's great. There's nothing that I would. I feel like if I did any. There was anything else, it would just be a whole nother book, you know, like a whole, you know, whole extra book. Because there's just so much to delve into. But no, I'm really. I'm really happy with. With what's in there.
- [47:50]
Tracy Thomas
And aside from Doris and the actual real life people, how do you name your characters?
- [47:57]
Mia McKenzie
Well, the main way that I name a character. Well, there's two main ways. So some. Some names I just really like and are. They're not necessarily all that interesting of names, but I just like them. Like Kate with a C is a name that I just like. I just like that. Something that just. It's like in My head. That works. There are a lot of people. The last name Lucas. I shouldn't say a lot. There's this one. There's a Lucas in this one. Last name Lucas. And there's a Lucas in Sky Falling also, because my favorite teacher when I was a kid was Mrs. Lucas. And so that's where that comes from. And besides that, for most characters, what I do is I look at the Social Security Administration's list of names for the year that person was born, and then I find names that, you know, that they would have been named based on that and whatever. On finding things on that list that really resonate with me. Sometimes names will have a particular. Like, they'll. They'll feel right. Because I knew somebody from, you know, from church, you know, when I was, you know, eight, who had that name or something. And so they remind me of the character or something like that. But that's usually the way that it goes.
- [49:07]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And how do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often? Music or. No. In the home, out of the home. Snacks and beverages, Rituals. Tell me about it.
- [49:17]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah, I don't like to have any noise, any music or anything, because my. My brain will just go to the music, like, okay. And it won't be. It won't stay with the story. Snacks, for sure. What? Lots of, you know, popcorn. I like a kettle corn situation. I do eat way too much of it, though, sometimes, and it just like. I'm just like, why did I eat the whole bag of kettle corn? Yeah. I feel like I'm not as. I shouldn't judge myself, but I want to have some sort of ritual. I was talking to someone a couple months ago who was a visual artist, and she was talking about rituals to kind of get her into the place of starting to work, and I just kind of fall into it. I'm just kind of like, oh, right now I'm washing dishes. Boom. I'm writing. I have nothing that's, like, easing me kind of into getting me kind of into writing mode. And so I have this idea ever since then. I mean, this is months ago, and I still haven't done it, so we'll see. But then I'm going to, like. I need to, like, give myself some kind of, like, ritual to, like, move into. Emotionally move into writing. But mostly my process is just kind of all, you know, I. I do outline, like. Like I said, I do have an outline, and I sort of, like, have a process for kind of building the story. But as far as, like, what I'm you know, I might be in my office in the, in the winter. I don't like to be in my home or home office because I have a fireplace in the living room. So I just want to be by the fireplace. So I might just be in the fireplace in it, not in it. By the fireplace. Sometimes. Yeah. When the nice, when the weather is nice outside under the trees. So I could kind of be anywhere. That feels, that feels good. But I need a lot of. Kind of. Yeah, I need a lot of sort of, I guess I would call it like when I first sit down to write, it usually takes a while for me to kind of get where I need to be. I always say if there's a day where I'm dropping my kids off at school and picking them up as opposed to my co parent picking them up or dropping them off, I have to do both. Right. There's only like six hours in between. That is the day I'm not going to write because that's not enough. Like I need, no, like I need way more time because I need to like slowly get into writing mode before I can actually get anything done. But if I got like eight hours or more, then I'm. I'm able to like do a lot.
- [51:41]
Tracy Thomas
Got it, got it. So like it takes you time to kind of like ramp up and it really does. Yeah, I see. This is the, this is where the ritual would come in, right?
- [51:48]
Mia McKenzie
Exactly. That's why I need a ritual so I can be like, okay, I did my thing, I did whatever it was that the thing. And now I'm like, I'm mentally prepared, I'm ready to go.
- [51:56]
Tracy Thomas
Do you know who Twyla Tharp is?
- [51:59]
Mia McKenzie
That sounds really familiar.
- [52:00]
Tracy Thomas
Really famous choreographer and she has a book called the Creative Habit which I love. And she talks a lot about the pre work ritual of, of. And the book is all about like being creative. But you should check it out and see if it inspires you to come up with your own ritual. Hers is like going into the studio and she just like puts music on and moves. No pen, no paper, just like does her thing. Right. But like when I have a lot of work to do, I will sit down and I will light a candle. And I only light my candle on days where I know I'm going to have a lot of time. Like you. I also have kids that I have to take and pick up and on days where I'm doing both and I have like a lot of interviews, I don't light a candle because I'm like, I'M not actually going to really work. I'm going to be doing other things. Yeah. But, yeah, I think I like a ritual. So I'm encouraging you to find whatever feels right for you, but it doesn't have to be a big thing.
- [52:51]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah.
- [52:51]
Tracy Thomas
You know.
- [52:52]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah. I really want to do it. I'm going to.
- [52:54]
Tracy Thomas
I've decided report back when you come up with one. Report back and let me know what it is.
- [53:00]
Mia McKenzie
I'm also going to report back with the other title.
- [53:03]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [53:03]
Mia McKenzie
I'm gonna stay in my head until.
- [53:04]
Tracy Thomas
I. Yeah, please do. I'll throw it up on socials or whatever. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [53:12]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah. I'm gonna be really honest and say that I am an excellent speller. Like, I am an excellent speller. I always have been. Sorry. I always have been since I was a K kid. Like in Mrs. Lucas's class.
- [53:24]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [53:26]
Mia McKenzie
I am an excellent speller, and I'm excellent at the grammar. Like, that is just. Yeah. So I don't. Yeah, I don't have a word like that. Sorry.
- [53:33]
Tracy Thomas
Wow. I. I love the confidence. Honestly. Like, you are what I hope to be one day.
- [53:39]
Mia McKenzie
What's your. Never spell.
- [53:41]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I can't spell any words. I just discovered I can't spell thief. I. I put an E before the I there recommendation. I cannot spell. I can't. I mean, honestly, any word. It could be a potential landmine for me. I am truly a. An abominable word. I can't spell speller. Like, I. It's everything. Pennsylvania, Massachusetts. It's food, it's beverage. It's. It's lots of consonants. It's lots of vowels. It's rhythm. Cancel rhythm. Can't spell athletic. Can't spell athlete. Just and everything.
- [54:15]
Mia McKenzie
Yeah. I'm just gonna say I can even spell Massachusetts. Like, I can even do that. That one is tricky because you don't S's and T's and, like, what is going on here? But, yeah, I can do it. First try.
- [54:25]
Tracy Thomas
The only word I can spell that comes up a lot on this podcast that people say they can't spell is restaurant. Apparently, restaurant is a very controversial word. Many of. Many of the biggest and brightest names who have come on this podcast have said restaurant. We literally have, like, a restaurant club now. And that's the only word that I'm like, you can't spell restaurant. How dumb are you? And then I'm over here like, thief dog. Can't tell anything else.
- [54:54]
Mia McKenzie
You over here putting it. Putting a Ph on the end of thief. Yeah.
- [54:57]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah. Oh, it's. I'm like, how many ease. And then I'm like, thieves. Like, there's just. I. There's. There's basically no word that I can spell confidently except for restaurant and sometimes my own name. But, like, even MacKenzie, when I was, like, working on this, I was like, let me double check that spelling, because it could be anything. I do. I can do Mia. I can do. Do me.
- [55:18]
Mia McKenzie
That's great.
- [55:20]
Tracy Thomas
On your website, it says writer, author, queer icon, auntie, but icon is crossed out. I need to know more about this.
- [55:30]
Mia McKenzie
So I. I consider myself a queer icon. And, you know, I have a good. A strong standing in the queer community as a. As an author, as a writer and activist and creator of Black Girl Dangerous, which had a huge impact on the culture and the queer. Black culture and the queer poc culture and the kind of media landscape. But I'm at a point in my life where that kind of visibility. I shun it now. I just don't ask me about the politics anymore. I don't want to. I don't want to talk about it. So, like, this, you know, it signifies a shift from, like, yeah, now I'm the auntie. Like, let's, you know, let's chat about, you know, let's chat about coffee and in bourbon and books. And that's. That's kind of. That's what I'm. What I'm into now. I still talk about the politics with my friends, but. But I don't get a. I don't get involved in too much of that in the online space anymore.
- [56:38]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. Okay, that makes sense, because I was like, I don't know. I think she's still kind of an icon here. For people who love these heathens. What are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with it?
- [56:51]
Mia McKenzie
Oh, that's a good question. So one of the books that inspire the. You know, I like you. You know, I mean, I don't have to tell anybody to read this because it's like a hugely popular, popular book. But the Good Lord bird by James McBride was a book that I read some years ago and absolutely loved it and was like, this is amazing. And it got me sort of thinking about historical fiction. And then I read, yes, American Spy, which is another historical fiction. Very cool, fun. Lauren Wilkinson, American Spy. Really good. And so I feel like those two books were kind of the books that I read that led me to deciding that I wanted to write a historical fiction. So. Yeah. So I recommend Those, especially Lorne Wilkinson, because everybody's already read the Good Lord Bird or watched the TV series or whatever. Also. Oh, there's this book, this nonviolent stuff will get you killed. Nonfiction. Yeah. That talks about that part of the movement that wasn't nonviolent resistance, which I actually read years ago, but just stayed with me and was on my mind a lot as I. As I read this novel. And actually, like, when I talk about going in and reading and taking really specific things, there's even a character in this book that's based on someone that I read about and that in that book. So, yeah, those are three books that I would recommend.
- [58:15]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. Okay, last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [58:21]
Mia McKenzie
Oh, my grandmother, for sure. Yeah, absolutely her. She would. She would love it. She would be so into it. She would be laughing, like, so much. Yeah, absolutely her. Without a doubt.
- [58:32]
Tracy Thomas
I love it. Well, everybody, you can get your copy of these Heathens now. Wherever books are sold, make sure you request it at your library as well. Mia, thank you so much for being here.
- [58:43]
Mia McKenzie
Thank you so much. This has been great. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for having me.
- [58:46]
Tracy Thomas
Thank you and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks. All right, y' all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Mia McKenzie for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Aaron Richards and Maria Brell for making today's episode possible. Remember, our book club pick this month is the Art Thief by Michael Finkel, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, June 25th with Kira O' Sullivan. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestack, Pod, on Instagram, threads and TikTok, and check out our website@thestackspodcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Freelow. Our graphic designer is Robin McCwaite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.