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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Hey y', all, it's me back with another book to tell you about. If you love contemporary retellings of classic novels like James by Percival Everett, then let me tell you about your next favorite book. It's called the Great man and it is a retelling of the Great Gatsby, but it is set among the black upper class of post war Los Angeles and is inspired by real life historic events. It follows Charlie Tramiel, a young veteran who is lured by his cousin Marguerite to the esteemed West Adams Heights, Louisiana's newly rechristened Sugar Hill, a place for black elites. As Charlie navigates a landscape rife with ambition, betrayal and societal turmoil, he soon finds himself beside the dazzling James Reaper man facing a pivotal decision that could end in and tragedy. Whether you've read or not read the Great Gatsby, you're gonna like the Great Man. The Great man is out now. It is by Kira Davis Lurie and you can find it wherever books are sold.
- [01:08]
Trey Johnson
The thing that I remind a lot of people or give the perspective of a lot of people who at least are sitting at what I perceive to be my peer class status, is that a lot of us have more fat to give in our lives than we realize. I actually do have enough and when I don't have enough, I have community. And so I think some of this I think particularly as a man, it was just like how do I extend myself out on the limb of vulnerability and know that even when the branch breaks, because branches do break from time to time, something and someone's going to catch you.
- [01:45]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am joined by writer and culture critic Trey Johnson. His debut book is called Black Essays on American Legacy and it explores Black American pop culture and history to discover the extraordinary genius of black folks in the most ordinary of places. Today, Trey and I talk about famous black geniuses and why that's not the book he wanted to write. Plus, we delve into the world of code switching and writing as a full time job. The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teaching of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer. We will discuss Braiding Sweetgrass on August 27th with Alexis Madrigal. Quick reminder, Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show Notes. If you're listening to this podcast, if you love this podcast, if you want to support independent black media, I got great News for you. We have a Patreon and a substack. You can get bonus content from me, hot takes, episodes, reading guides, and a lot more by showing your love over on those platforms. If you're looking for a readerly community, head to patreon.com the stacks. And if you're looking more for my thoughts and opinions, you should go to my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com all right, now it's time for my conversation with Trey Johnson.
- [03:11]
Trey Johnson
Foreign.
- [03:15]
Tracy Thomas
Everybody. I'm very excited. Today we get to talk about genius and geniuses with the official black genius correspondent to the Stacks. That's a brand new title, but we're gonna go with it. I'm joined by Trey Johnson, who is the author of a brand new book called Black Genius Essays on an American Legacy. Trey, welcome to the stacks.
- [03:37]
Trey Johnson
Ah, thank you, Tracy. I'm so excited. I've been a long time listener, big time fan. This is so cool.
- [03:42]
Tracy Thomas
I, you know, that always works on me. Anyone telling me they listen to the show or as a fan, every time someone says it, I'm always like, whoa, wow, you've got so much time on your hands to spend time with me. But I appreciate it.
- [03:54]
Trey Johnson
It's time well spent.
- [03:55]
Tracy Thomas
Trust me, I appreciate it. I really do. But let's talk more about you. We'll start here. We always start here. 30 seconds or so. Can you tell us about black genius?
- [04:07]
Trey Johnson
Oh, my gosh, yes. So Black Genius, my nonfiction debut book. It's a nine chapter book about cultural genius in the black American community. So it's nine different chapters on nine different experiences. It runs the gamut from comic books to airbrush tees to ATVs to digital age to surveillance. And it's just my exploration around cultural, emotional, cerebral genius as I've seen it in the black community.
- [04:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, and one of the things I really appreciate about the book is that you don't pick the black genius that like geniuses that people think of when they think of black geniuses. This isn't a book about James Baldwin or Toni Morrison. You're not going through and like listing genius black athletes or genius black podcasters like myself. You're going, which is rude. And I can't believe I even invited you on when you didn't specifically name me in the black genius category. But it's fine. We'll get through this interview. But good luck to you future.
- [05:04]
Trey Johnson
There's always the paperback.
- [05:08]
Tracy Thomas
But my question is why? Why did you not want to write about sort of black or why did you want to write about black genius in a way that was more kind of topic based versus specific. Genius based?
- [05:26]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, that's such a great question. So I think for me, a big part of it is so my like prior slash parallel life has been like working in education for umpteen years, like 20 years or so. And for me, a big part of it was like a lot of my jobs in education. I was a classroom teacher, I was a program coordinator for youth nonprofits. I did community engagement. I was constantly doing work in black neighborhoods and black communities and just got to routinely experience and you know, I am someone who grew up in Trenton, New Jersey, which is a small post industrial American city here in the northeast. But I always thought that my experience as a black kid in our family growing up was singular. And so spending a lot of time having to go into so many different homes over the years through work, I just got impressed upon me about like, shit. We have constantly figured out a myriad of ways to get through life and not like under duress necessarily all the time. Sometimes, yes, but a lot of times just like just the inventive joy that comes with being black and being positioned in a certain way in America. So when I set out to start doing the book, the tagline I keep using nowadays is that to your point, like, instead of using household names, I wanted to talk about households. And so a lot of this is from the ground up, you know, like, what have I seen in community centers, churches, schools, neighborhoods, homes? I wanted to fixate on play space and topic based experiences that hopefully touches on like, the multitude of black experiences in the country and not just a singular fixation around class or status.
- [07:01]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, these words are not synonyms to me, but because you use it now, it has me thinking, like you mentioned, you know, like, black joy. Why did you want to write a book about black genius and not a book about black joy or like celebrating blackness? Because I feel like those are all sort of three different things. So what was it about the genius aspect that really stuck out to you?
- [07:23]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, I mean, I think probably like you and many other people listening to us would agree with, like, you know, we get undercut as black folks all the time for how sharp and inventive and amazing we are. And you know, I really appreciate all the other, like, black underline, fill in the blank, whatever kind of other stories have been out there. But I think explicitly looking at cultural genius inside of the community was something that I don't think people have appreciated enough or celebrated enough. And to your question and to your point, you know, I think inside of what I hopefully have accomplished in the book is through the unpacking of genius, is to understand that joy does exist inside of that. That it's not one versus the other. It's not an hierarchical status or status state of being. That part of the things that we kind of create and do does give us joy in everyday life. And I. So I wanted to kind of. And some of it also gives us, like, opportunity and mobility, and I wanted to kind of explore all those things underneath genius.
- [08:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think also, like, just hearing you talk, it's making me think about the ways that black, like the way that joy is almost like a simple thing and anybody can have joy, right? Like black joy. Like, isn't that so cute? Like, babies are joyful, right? Like, people who don't have any. You know, I mean, it even extends to some of the, like, really ableist depictions of people with like, mental disability where it's like, oh, but they're so happy. They're so simple. And I feel like genius is. Demands a sort of respect in a way that some of the other words that are more like, quote unquote accepted about black people does not require 100% agree.
- [09:09]
Trey Johnson
And I think, like. I think what you're saying is bringing up for me is like, this idea that, like, you know, I think one of the big things about the title that I think works and the orientation of the book that works is that, you know, you hear the word genius and you. You get. You get an automatic kind of depiction or fixation around what you must be kind of gesturing towards. And again, you know, to your point, having read the book, like, this isn't about exploring or unpacking the very well valued and celebrated kind of like cultural talented tent of black American pop culture or history that's been done 20 times over. And there's glimpses of those types of folks here and there inside the book. But again, I just think that happens to. I think the hard thing that I wanted to do is just like expand our notion of appreciation. Because I think what could be turned against us in a lot of ways is that that fixation on, like, the celebrity ness of black genius can kind of make people seem like outliers to the black American experience. And I. I don't think that's true. I know that's not true.
- [10:13]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [10:13]
Trey Johnson
That's why I did this book.
- [10:14]
Tracy Thomas
Right? And like, oh, my God, this made me think so many things. But I feel like there's also this underlying racism where it's like, Any white person could become the next Steve Jobs. Right. Like, it's like that, like, white genius is just like sleeping in your parents garage or like, hidden. Like, it's like you. If. If you had. I mean, this is gonna sound horrible, I think. I don't know. Maybe not. But there's a. Like, there's this version of a movie where a person who's experiencing homelessness, who's white, picks up a pen and like, draws this thing and becomes Picasso. And while there are examples of that story, there's that movie with Jamie Foxx where he's like, plays an instrument or something. He's like blind and homeless and whatever.
- [10:57]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [10:58]
Tracy Thomas
It's just like in real life, that benefit of the doubt is not extended to black people experiencing homelessness or otherwise. But just like that black. Like, I think what you're. This book does is reminds people. And I want to get to audience in a second about. Or reminds people that black genius exists, but also, like, could be lurking anywhere, like in a threatening, awesome way.
- [11:25]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [11:26]
Tracy Thomas
So I don't know, I appreciate that sort of undertone of like, obviously we have these geniuses, but also we have so many geniuses, you don't even. You can't even see. I think in the section about education, you talk about all these black kids that you've met, or at least some who are like savants of Internet culture or like Internet technology who can flip a tik tok or a vine or whatever, like, they can do. And you're just like, if education encompassed this, yeah, this would be an honor roll. You know, what do they call it? I can't think of the word. Kids who are like, special, get gifted, gifted and talented or whatever. And I. I thought that moment really resonated with me because I think. I mean, I think this is obviously true for black kids, but I think just in general, creativity is so undervalued that the genius behind creativity takes so much outside reinforcement of like, someone else saying, you're a genius.
- [12:29]
Trey Johnson
That's right.
- [12:30]
Tracy Thomas
That is. Adds a layer to the whole thing. This is not a question. This is just thought, well, if I.
- [12:37]
Trey Johnson
Can, like, throw something in there too, around one of the things I try. You should tell me if this actually is accomplished in the book. But like, you know, a big thing that I wanted to do is like, pop. Cultural wise and historic. And historically, so much of black genius has been validated by this, like, kind of undercurrent notion that thank God a white person recognized this thing.
- [12:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [12:59]
Trey Johnson
And it's. It has often been an orientation around black genius is elevated and like, crystallized because it's, it's benefited from some type of white watering. And, you know, I think white people obliquely kind of appear in this book by dint of talking about the American context. But what I was careful to try and do is not say like, thank God to this tension, cultural tension point that it was able to be able to express. Like, if anything, the reverse, I think I try to point out is true, is that when we've endeavored to do something different, we've attracted unwanted white attention to try to squash things.
- [13:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Before we switch over to audience, and while we're sort of on the topic of like, of recognized air quotes, black genius or like black genius figures, I think something, and I think you talk about this in the introduction or the first chapter where you mention a bunch of like, recognized black geniuses, Kanye West, Lauryn Hill, Dave Chappelle, who all sort of have these very well known and public flame outs. And it got me to think, thinking, when it comes to black geniuses, do we only recognize them? We being, I guess, white America, so not we, but like, are. Do they only get the recognition that they deserve for their genius after a public flame out or after their death or like, after a very long time?
- [14:26]
Trey Johnson
I feel like my like, punt answer to that is like, I think all that's true.
- [14:30]
Tracy Thomas
I think it's like.
- [14:32]
Trey Johnson
I do think what you are pointing at though, is that it usually requires some element of our downfall, demise to. Because then I feel like you're rendered a lot more vulnerable, helpless, like you're not an active voice in the conversation anymore. You become an artifact for people to prop up, often as a way of other people flexing their own intellect by me, by being able to unpack and engage with whatever thing that these black folks have done. And so I don't know. I think, yeah, I mean, I mean, at the same. To be fair too, I mean, when you talk about Kanye, Lauren or even like MJ and stuff, like, these people were celebrated at the height of their less problematic periods. I also think there is some glee and some like, like, you know, disgust around people who have like, strayed away from or cheated or robbed us of their genius by being human a lot of times just being deeply flawed humans.
- [15:31]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I think you're right that they were celebrated in their time before, but I don't think they were like, considered geniuses before. Like, I think Lauryn Hill was considered more of a fluke in her moment like this, like, she made this One great album. And like, yeah, she was part of the Fugees. And it wasn't until she started to sort of like, show all that goes into creating great art that she became like a tortured genius. I think Michael Jackson is interesting because he was obviously celebrated in everybody's favorite, but part of his story was having been sort of an abused child star. Like, he always had that tortured piece to his story. And similarly with Kanye, like, I think Kanye really explodes when he becomes sort of a toxic cultural figure, or at least when he starts to have controversy. We love him, right? Like, people come to him, they listen to him. But Kanye becoming, like, con. He used to be Kanye west, now he's Kanye, you know, like. And that comes to me after at least some of the ick starts to show up. I don't know, it's just something. I mean, that was something that I was thinking about as I was reading your book, which is not really in your book, but just like this idea of genius. Because I remember I went to art school and I remember people always talking about, like, like kids in college being like, oh, I'm going to get off my meds, because, like, that's how I can be my most creative self. Like this sort of really unhealthy sort of relationship to genius that I think I always think about, because you know who. Van Go cut off his ear, right? Like, it's like we have these, like, tortured mentally, you know, people who are, like, going through mental health crises who become celebrated artists. And I think that really stuck with me. And so I was. I was thinking about that in the context of your book.
- [17:22]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, I. Again, a big. I was saying this at a. I did. My book launch was last week and it was July 29, and so we had a big book launch down downtown here. And I live in Philly, that Barnes and Noble, and it's a packed room of people. And I was saying there, that's like, you know, books are just such a long fucking process that, like, I did. I had no interest. I would. I am in awe of black writers who can spend years working on a long form project that is delving in black pain in the community. I just couldn't do that. I could not do that. I just like, this. This shit is so long. It's already so disruptive to life. It takes a lot out of you. The last thing I wanted to do additively to that is like, talk about the toxic elements of black cultural life or black genius.
- [18:15]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, how is it disruptive to life?
- [18:18]
Trey Johnson
Oh, my God. How Much time do we have?
- [18:21]
Tracy Thomas
Plenty. Plenty.
- [18:24]
Trey Johnson
You know, I mean, my agent, Sabrina, she's amazing wme. She's. She's often like, kind of telling me, like, she, like, don't. Don't tell people all the sauce behind, like, like the book process, whatever. But I think it's really important for people to understand and appreciate, like, what it takes to create.
- [18:39]
Tracy Thomas
And literally, that's why people are here at this podcast. It might not be what you do on like, NPR or whatever, I don't know, but, like, this is a podcast about books, people who read them, people who write them, people who love them. So, like, we want. We do want to know. Sabrina. This is the exact place to send your authors to vent.
- [18:58]
Trey Johnson
Thank you. Fully validated, though. Sabrina's great. Don't get me wrong.
- [19:02]
Tracy Thomas
You love Sabrina.
- [19:02]
Trey Johnson
One of my favorite.
- [19:03]
Tracy Thomas
Shout out.
- [19:03]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, she's. She's one of my favorite humans, but to the point of disruption. You know, I was like, very. I started working on the book Spring 2021, and I wrapped it up basically. I think we put the final copy edit bow and tie on it probably December 2024. And so during that time, though, like, you know, I grew up poor in Trent, New Jersey, single mom home. Me and my mom and my younger sister. Pretty hard scrabble, but, like, decent life. But by the time I got the book deal, I was an executive, basically. I was a VP doing equity work for this nonprofit called Catalyst Ed that's focused on supporting public sector work. And when I got my book deal, which I was fortunate, I got a substantial size book deal, I was not convinced that I could leave work and focus on writing one. It felt too whimsical and irresponsible to, like, you know, I think you, when you grow up the way I have and some of the other people have, you are constantly waiting for the other financial shoe to drop. So I'm like. I'm like, there's. There's no way that I can let go of one thing to. In particular to essentially choose myself and to choose this thing that I want to do. And so, you know, for the first time, two years probably, I was working full time, and then probably like nights, morning, nights, weekends, working on the book. I was like, you know, and as a remote worker, I was like, on my computer around the fucking clock. And. Yeah. And it was just, you know, it's hard to have. It's. It's hard to be anything but a ghost in your own life and in other people's lives around you when you are. You Were scared to go all in on yourself or on and, or a book in the way that I could have and wanted to. So there was that, there was just like, there was just the pain of like, you know, I had like such bags and dark circles under my eyes. I had so much stress. I often say that it was such a weird double edged sword to work on a book called Black Genes because everyone loved the title. But also at the same time I felt such a burden around getting a significant book deal and working on a title called Black Genius. You always still get this thing like, if I mess this up, I mess this up for us. And it was very hard to let go of. And so I think a lot of that just factored into just how I doggedly approach working on the book. And then on top of that too, you know, it's all the typical things you see. I think Tony K. Bambara talked about this about like when you're away from, when you're indulging in the craft of your work, you do all the things that you don't intend to do. You miss birthdays, you miss holidays, you miss like you cancel and you reschedule 20 times over with everyone around you. You are gone for extended periods of time. That makes sense to you, that don't make sense to other people. And so, you know, I am, I am somebody who is largely had 10 toes down in a conventional 9 to 5 world. As soon as I started, you know, tweaking and disrupting that, I started kind of moving to the outside of that experience, which meant I was moving to the outside of a lot of the community around me because people weren't living and moving like the way I was. And so, so there's a lot of that, A lot of that.
- [22:45]
Tracy Thomas
Do you still have the 9 to 5 job or did you leave it?
- [22:49]
Trey Johnson
No, I left it. I left it. I left it.
- [22:52]
Tracy Thomas
How long into the process did you leave it?
- [22:55]
Trey Johnson
Oh, shit. So I, I took this. September 2022. I had kind of hit emotional and mental rock bottom and I went to Bali on kind of somewhat last minute.
- [23:12]
Tracy Thomas
Moment.
- [23:13]
Trey Johnson
Oh my God. Yes. It's like, it's like I am no longer going, going to mock these basic white girls who do these trips. I get it now.
- [23:22]
Tracy Thomas
It's honestly Eat Pray Love trips. They don't see, they don't see color, okay. They don't see gender. They don't see anything. All they see is I need a fucking break. They see capitalism. That's it.
- [23:33]
Trey Johnson
My God. Yes. And like cliche way I was like, literally, I did a morning hike with my friend Kim. We did this. We were on a tour guide hike where we went to the top of a mountain that took us like, I think literally three hours to get to the top. We got there at sunrise. I was standing there at the top. It's like seven in the morning at that point now. And I watched the sun come up. And I was like, I got to leave my job. I got to leave my job.
- [23:58]
Tracy Thomas
I did the same hike you did, I think so the, like, big. The biggest one in Bali. I mean, I did. I did a big one in Bali.
- [24:06]
Trey Johnson
It probably is the same one. And it's. I am not a religious person, but I'm like. I get so much about so many things being so much bigger than me. And I think it's that kind of frame that just gave me a perspective. Like, life in the universe is so big. The smallest, biggest thing I can do is choose something that I want for my life. And so I came back down from the mountain and like, when I got back to the States, I told my boss, October 2022, I told my boss, I gotta step away. I gotta focus on this thing.
- [24:37]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, can I keep asking you about this?
- [24:39]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, of course.
- [24:40]
Tracy Thomas
I will go back to the book and I do want to ask you about audience, I promise. But I just. I feel like so many authors don't talk about this, but I'm just so curious about. So you quit your job, which I'm assuming you had a salary and I did. Now how do you put together a living? And how does that change how you write or, like, how you think about writing? Because before you had the stress of having to write and also having to have a job, but now you sort of flip the stress, which is that your writing has to become your job, which makes it a lot less, I think, I would imagine. At least it changes your relationship to it. So I'm curious how you then make ends meet if you're used to having a salary and all of a sudden you don't. And then also how that changed your relationship to writing.
- [25:31]
Trey Johnson
If it. Oh, my God, it did. It did. In all the right way. So I make my living now a couple of ways. I've done some, like, gig facilitation work. There's this amazing group called Bahara where I've done. I've been a moderator doing race based, like, affinity type of seminar work. So I've been doing that I still get hit up for. I've been so lucky. Like, Blackstar Film Festival. They have their organization here in Philadelphia who has a cultural journal called Scene. I've written for Scene a couple of times. I've written for a couple other outlets. Like, you kind of patchwork. You save money, you cut back on some things. The thing that I remind a lot of people or give the perspective of a lot of people who at least are sitting at what I perceive to be my peer class status is that a lot of us have more fat to give in our lives than we realize. I've just been smarter and leaner about like some things. I just don't need to do as much anymore. I. I spent a year not buying new clothes and just focusing on the closet that I had, which was plenty. And I think that's the thing. It's like, I think what writing has taught me, which is much more about like again, choosing myself, which is that I actually do have enough. And when I don't have enough, I have community. And when I have community around me, community can literally and figuratively be me in so many types of ways. And so I think there was that there was just some of this. I think particularly as a man, it was just like, how do I extend myself out on the limb of vulnerability and know that even when the branch breaks, because branches do break from time to time, some, something and someone's going to catch you.
- [27:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I feel like not. I mean, I'm not ready to go back to the book, but I will be in a moment. But I do feel like some of that is like the thesis of the book in its own way of like that black people, through our everyday lives and experiences have found ways to build trees and branches that can weather any storm. And that to do that is inherently genius. Like to have figured out the like mechanics of how to build communities through the good. Like through a heavy fruit bearing season or, you know, a hurricane like that the tree will remain and that there's like room enough. It's not the best analogy, but I do feel like, you know, you're vibing, you're going, you're going. But like, I do feel like that is ultimately what this book is about.
- [28:04]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because I mean, I found myself eventually, you know, the book set out in one direction and then I think life kept informing the direction. And I don't think I even consciously knew that that's what I was crafting as I crafted the book. And you know, I've been saying to people like, you know, I think two things are true about the book. One is that it builds towards that case, making that case towards the end. I also think it is true. That is a book that you could could if you chose to do so. I'm not this type of reader, but if you chose to read it in a non linear fashion, you'd be okay.
- [28:39]
Tracy Thomas
I'm not that kind of reader either. And I don't understand how those people exist. I'm just like, it's. It's presented to you in an order. You're just gonna go and like whenever a book says, like, you could read this in any order, I'm like, okay, I could, but like, why would I do that? Didn't you write a book in or aren't you in charge? Tell me what to do.
- [28:57]
Trey Johnson
What the fully agree this is. It's so funny. I just got done. My editor, Lashonda Dutton, she's amazing. I loved working with her. She was just asking me about new music and playlists. And so I've been curating playlists for the last couple of days. And one of the things that, to the point around this, like book stuff, you know, one thing that I always tell people when I send them a playlist is like, hey, look, like I want you to listen to this in the order that I've put it in because.
- [29:23]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, you're that person. I will listen to a playlist on shuffle, but generally I only listen to playlists that I make that are vibes based, not narrative based, if that makes sense. I used to teach fitness when I used to teach spin and that's it. Yeah. And I. My those playlists I do not listen to in on shuffle because I am building a narrative which is like an insane thing to say about a spin class. But like it like, it's like there's a hill. We can't just go up the hill and then be flat. Like, I've got. I've got a plan. I want you to do this. I want to get to this section. I want to have a vibe right here. Then I want to build to the end and I want to go out on a bang. That's not a shuffle playlist. But I like if I'm on Spotify and it's like 2000s barbecue, that's a shuffle. Because I know that's just a bunch of songs I've listened to that you're putting together 100%.
- [30:13]
Trey Johnson
100%. Like they're themed playlists.
- [30:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that's a vibe based on this. But if you, if you're like going through and like making a playlist, I do think you should listen to that in order.
- [30:24]
Trey Johnson
I do too.
- [30:25]
Tracy Thomas
I. The only thing I'll do out of order is like a serialized television comedy. So, like I'll watch random episodes of the Office. But I did watch the Office in order the first time. Now I'll go back and goof off. Yes, but I wouldn't watch a show for the first time out of order.
- [30:44]
Trey Johnson
No, of course not. Right. Exactly.
- [30:46]
Tracy Thomas
It's. It's crazy behavior. And I know there are people listening who are like, I totally read books out of order. And you know what? I'm telling you, it's crazy behavior. Babe, you're nuts.
- [30:54]
Trey Johnson
You're a nut to be trusted.
- [30:55]
Tracy Thomas
You're probably a Pisces and it's scary.
- [30:58]
Trey Johnson
Okay.
- [30:58]
Tracy Thomas
We don't feel safe.
- [31:01]
Trey Johnson
I love that.
- [31:02]
Tracy Thomas
What is your sign since we're here?
- [31:03]
Trey Johnson
I knew you're going to ask me that of Aquarius.
- [31:05]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, okay. That's my Moon and My Rising.
- [31:07]
Trey Johnson
Ah, love it.
- [31:09]
Tracy Thomas
I love this for us. Okay, me too. We're going to take a break and then I'm going to ask a question everyone's been waiting for. Okay. Turning the stacks from an idea into a reality is one of the things I am the most proud of. But listen, it was extremely hard for even me to believe in this idea a hundred percent of the time. I remember thinking to myself, what if I can't find the right guest? Or what if nobody listens to the podcast? I still have that fear. Or how do I sell merch? Or a million other things. Turning your ideas into actual things is so incredibly hard. But that's where finding the right tools like Shopify comes into play. It can make this doubtful process into something that maybe you can feel a little bit more confident in. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the United States. So it's safe to say they know a little something about business. Stressed about designing your website? No worries. Shopify's got you from the get go with beautiful ready to go templates to match your brand and your style. Stress about getting the word out about your business. Shopify helps you with your customers with easy to run social media and email campaigns. And if you ever get stuck, Shopify's got award winning 24. 7 customer support and they're always there to help turn those business dreams of yours into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today@shopify.com the Stacks. Go to shopify.com the Stacks. Shopify.com the Stacks hey everybody, it's Tracy and it's time for a take home test for all of you. Raise your hands if you've been enjoying the Stacks. Okay, I can't see your hands, but I am feeling the vibes like it's definitely raised. And if it is, I've got two places you can go to keep the book vibes going. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter Unstacked on Substack. The Stacks Pack is where it's at for listeners like you who want to join a bookish community. We've got Book Club Meetups, A Private Discord, our year long mega challenge to help you push your reading goals. Because not everyone is reading on a deadline for their podcast like I am. Plus, members get new bonus episodes every month. It's a great way to support me and the crew and also to connect with other readers. Now over on Unstacked, I keep the conversation going twice a week with posts to cover everything from mini reviews, rankings, pop culture, hot takes and rants, a little bit of shade, and whatever's on my tbr. There's a free option over there. Or you can subscribe for even more content, including those bonus episodes I mentioned before. Plus, from now until September 22nd, if you join the paid tier on either platform, you have access to my annual nonfiction reading guide. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers, support this Black woman run independent podcast. Come hang out with me on Patreon or Substack or both. I would love to see you in the stacks.
- [34:19]
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- [34:21]
Tracy Thomas
Can I make my sight softer?
- [34:22]
Trey Johnson
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [34:26]
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- [34:52]
Tracy Thomas
We are back. The question everyone's been waiting for, but only because I started Talking about this 25 minutes ago, is who is your audience? How how were you thinking about audience and how has that shifted, if at all, since the book has been in the world and you started to hear from readers?
- [35:11]
Trey Johnson
So I think my audience is black people. And then I think it's people who love black people. And honestly, at first when I First was writing this book. I was thinking about white people. And I think that's much more a reflection of the systems, the publishing industry. This also, like, I feel like in this weird way for me, and probably, I'm sure I'm assuming I'm not alone in this, is that sometimes the invisible gaze that you're most aware of, particularly if it feels like it's going to be punitive, is a white gaze. And so I think for me, some of it was just like, oh, how, like, am I writing? Do I need to be writing this in a way that, like, one appeases white audiences, but two, like, also brings them in, so to speak, you know, not turning them off. You know, you start, at least for me, because I'd never done a book before. I started thinking more expansively about, like, oh, my God, I don't want to turn off book clubs. I don't want to turn off.
- [36:17]
Tracy Thomas
The.
- [36:17]
Trey Johnson
Urban white lady who walks into Barnes and Noble and snatches this book off the shelf, you know, and they were just stupid narratives to hold in my head. They were absolutely stupid narratives to hold in my head because they were actually all these emotional detours to not write the book that I wanted to write.
- [36:33]
Tracy Thomas
So what clicked for you to get back to the thing you wanted to make?
- [36:37]
Trey Johnson
I give credit all the time to Sabrina and lashonda again. Sabrina, my agent, Lashonda, my editor. My first manuscript for Black Genius, I turned in, I think, full manuscript. I turned in around February 2023, and it was 450 some odd pages.
- [36:57]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah. You wouldn't have been on this podcast with that, let me tell you.
- [37:00]
Trey Johnson
I don't think I would have been on Dutton's advance payroll either if I kept moving forward with that. But it was from such a place of insecurity and so much fear. And so they know Lashonda. Lashonda took the lead first, and she was just like, look, you don't need all this. We got into collaboration with you because we want your voice and your thought and your story around how you, Trey Johnson, are exploring genius. And so that was the big editorial thematic shift, was that, much to my discomfort. Lashonda was like, you need to be you, and your story needs to be a through line through these chapters. You need to be the guide that takes people through each one of these otherwise abstract, somewhat disparate experiences. And so that was the big shift. And when I started making that shift, you know, I started. The way I kind of made it smaller for myself is I just started thinking about all my friends, like that's who I was writing to. I was writing to a love letter of appreciation to my family and my friends who play a big part in not just the background of this book, but inside the pages of the book, too.
- [38:13]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. Did you always have the title?
- [38:16]
Trey Johnson
Always. The title came before everything else.
- [38:19]
Tracy Thomas
It did. What was the first seed of this book then? Like, you had a title, but you had to have a title for a book. So what did you think that the thing was going to be? Or is this what you thought it was?
- [38:30]
Trey Johnson
So it'd be. It's not. It's not. I did this. Kima Jones, who had Jack Jones. I was part of a cultural writing fellowship in Savannah, Georgia, that she convened back in 2019. And we all had to have kind of like a manifesto essay that we have to share from our respective genre. I was in the pop culture genre. And my first draft around what ultimately became the book was this, like, kind of mixed narrative ode to my grandfather, Robert Murphy, who was. He passed away a dozen or so years ago, but he was a black man of a generation far earlier than ours. But, like, I often watched how he one created the life that he had for himself and our family, but then also to how he continued to introduce different elements of black pop culture in particular into his life. And what did his diet look like and not look like? And I was just fascinated by him. He remains my favorite human being next to my mom. And I was just fascinated about how he digested the world around him, particularly pop culture, through his blackness. And I wanted to explore, like, just. This was a guy who grew up in small town Georgia in, like, the 30s. His family migrated to the north. He got into Temple University here in Philadelphia, but turned it down because he needed to work and support his family. And as a result, like, worked in the garage of a local auto dealership. But over the course of his career, career, he. Before he retired, he was in the C suite as an executive handling billings and credit and stuff like that for auto financials. And all along the way, I just learned how to watch the different ways he professionally, culturally, historically, just moved through different parts of life and made sense of things. And I just. I was like, there's probably even more to this into his life, into us, that could be looked at through that lens.
- [40:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. This sort of story reminds me of your chapter on education, the Streaml chapter.
- [40:52]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [40:52]
Tracy Thomas
Which is. I think it's my favorite. It's my favorite. It's really good.
- [40:56]
Trey Johnson
I love that.
- [40:56]
Tracy Thomas
I love that chapter.
- [40:58]
Trey Johnson
Thank you.
- [40:59]
Tracy Thomas
Because. Well, we could tell people. I think we can. It's not a spoiler to tell people what Streamlies. Now, there's not real spoilers on this one. No, but it's about your uncle who comes up with this phrase or this term, Streaml, when it comes, which is like street plus formal education. And I, I just was really captivated by him. But also what I liked about the chapter is that you brought in your own experiences in education and sort of the, like the official education expert tray. Right? Like, it's like you, you carry like an authority about the education system because, like, you were at tfa. Teach for America for people. I almost, I almost took a job at TFA before I started this podcast.
- [41:48]
Trey Johnson
No shit. Doing what?
- [41:49]
Tracy Thomas
Teaching. I wanted to go to the core going into.
- [41:53]
Trey Johnson
Oh, my God.
- [41:54]
Tracy Thomas
And then I was like, I don't want to do it. I went to like, I like, got in. And then I like, went to one of the, like, thing, like, trainings Institute. And I was like, I hate it. And I was like, I just really want to talk about books. Maybe I should start a book podcast. Like, literally these things were happening, like, concurrently or right about concurrently. Anyways, that's amazing. But in this chapter, you're talking about, like, your relationship to education as a person who is working as an education provider on the provider side. And then you're talking about your uncle and his experiences in education and sort of, you know, being this, like, extremely street smart guy who also could pivot easily into formal education systems, but without code switching, which I thought was really interesting that Streaml is not a. Is not a substitute for code switching. It's its own unique thing, which is like holding on to the street and the formal in one. That's sort of how I understood it. Did I do that? Okay?
- [42:59]
Trey Johnson
I think yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah. I would say, you know, it's such my lashada and I went back and forth on trying to, like, distill stream all four people, and you did a beautiful job of it. And the way I talk about it is like, it is the thing that I think all of us strive to do as black and other type of marginalized people, which is ultimately just be wholly integrated. Right. Like, the thing around code switch, which I think has remained entrenched as a popular method to navigate the world, is that code switching require. It implicitly requires you to trade off aspects of yourself in order to appease an outside audience. And I think Streaml is very comfortably disavows that. It says, no, I am going to showcase you the full integrity of my body and my personality and my intellectual by not trading off these components to essentially make you feel better or make you understand me better on your terms. And I think that was the beautiful thing about it. And my uncle, who doesn't live too far from here in Philly, he remains one of the most fascinating people to me to this day. So fucking smart. And again, he presents it in a way that would rankle people sometimes.
- [44:14]
Tracy Thomas
Right. Is he the son of your grandfather?
- [44:18]
Trey Johnson
He's this. He's so. Or the other side I mentioned before. He's the other side. He's on my dad's side of the family.
- [44:24]
Tracy Thomas
Got it. I shouldn't have said I see the son of your grandfather, because obviously he is a son of one of your grandfathers. I just wasn't sure if they were connected.
- [44:31]
Trey Johnson
That's all good.
- [44:32]
Tracy Thomas
I feel like code switching is also really interesting to me because it has an inherently negative sort of undertone to it. And as a person who obviously has code switched a lot in my life, I also feel like it is. I don't think of it as an inherently bad thing. I think of it as a cousin to Streaml in a lot of ways of, like, you understand the situation and so you do what needs to be done. But I understand that also the idea of, like, making oneself smaller or different to, like, fit in or to be seen or heard is, like, not great. And then I think about, like, I guess, like, the only people who don't really do it are, like, straight CIS white men who are wealthy. But, like, I think they do it too. Like, I just feel like.
- [45:17]
Trey Johnson
I think so too.
- [45:18]
Tracy Thomas
Not as much and not in maybe as obvious ways, but I do feel like either they do it or they totally flame out in social situations, right? They, like, go sit in the corner if it's like, a group of women. Or, like. Like, they, like, don't. Or they, like, try to, like, be really cool. Like, it's like, they can't ha. There's no equilibrium for them if they're unable to do it. So I don't know. I think of it as, like, a skill to me. But maybe that's more like. Like, the. The fully realized version of code switching is, like, to be Streaml, right? It's like if you're, like, on a. Like, if you can really not fully code switch and, like, lean into the two parts of yourself, you've reached, like, Streaml enlightenment or something.
- [46:01]
Trey Johnson
It's the Bali Mountain.
- [46:04]
Tracy Thomas
It's the sunrise of that's right.
- [46:07]
Trey Johnson
Yeah. The only thing I would say, I mean this. I, you know, that's what was so great about working on that chapter is that, you know, so for people who haven't read it yet, I essentially make that chapter three different characters. It's my uncle Alan, it's my friend Jamil, and then ultimately in some respects it's myself. And I actually kind of. I think what really helped me about delving into those two, into Al and Jamil's stories is that it really helped me understand the limitation of sustained code switching at a high altitude and kind of put my. As a result I kind of put myself and you know, people will re. What I don't want to spoil is a story about how I come to realize it for myself. Yeah, but. But I think what was I was hoping to do over the course of that chapter is like look at how these two gentlemen did streaml contextual to their lives and look at the cost of it did for me to ignore it.
- [47:08]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [47:08]
Trey Johnson
And to maintain, you know, and I think to your earlier points around like the Kanye's and the Laurens and stuff like that, I would argue that some of the fracturing that happened to them is around the sustained code switch. Like this idea that you have to appease these other systems to the expense of your true self.
- [47:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [47:29]
Trey Johnson
And I think what happens, something breaks.
- [47:30]
Tracy Thomas
And I think that is especially damaging for people who consider themselves to be creative.
- [47:36]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [47:37]
Tracy Thomas
Like I think code switching is particularly harmful to people who rely on. I mean everybody's creative, but some people don't consider themselves creative or like don't lean into that in that way. I would argue that you should, but you know, don't listen to me. I'm a creative. What the do I know. But I do think it's like extreme. I think sustained code switching to your point is. Is more. Can be more damaging to people who have to rely on their own creative instincts in order to like not just make money but like to be a human. I feel like people who are truly creative, it's like being creative is like integral to who you are. Like you can't survive.
- [48:15]
Trey Johnson
Yes.
- [48:16]
Tracy Thomas
Without creative outlets or like you can't be a good version of yourself and when it gets stifled or like that, that kind of like messaging from your creative higher power. I don't know, I don't believe in higher powers. But like for me when I'm being creative there is like something inputting and then my brain is like thinking, thinking and then I'm like throwing outputting options. And when that mechanism for me gets cloudy, whether it's because I'm thinking of audience in the wrong way or at the wrong time in the process or whatever, which I think is what code switching does it up your audience metric.
- [48:48]
Trey Johnson
Yes.
- [48:48]
Tracy Thomas
That's when the thing for me can break. And I'm sure it's different for everyone. But I think to your point, like, I. I can understand how a person like Lauryn Hill or like a person who's extremely creative and creating on such a high level, if they start to worry about that code switching element, could just up the whole thing.
- [49:08]
Trey Johnson
You just lose sense of yourself. Yeah, I think in a less drastic way, like, I think so. I have friends who come to me nowadays about, like, writing or wanting to be writers. And there are often people who are steeped in their 9 to 5 work. And you can see they're so. And these tend to be black and brown people. You can see that they're so enmeshed in the thing. They don't know how to talk away from the jargon and the stilted Voice of Like LinkedIn post sounding, you know, like, that's totally. And that's the problem with code switching is that at a sustained level. And when you feel like you've been incentivized to operate this way, I think you lose the bead on, like, what the fuck do I actually sound? Who am I?
- [49:49]
Tracy Thomas
Right? You can't trust. You don't trust yourself.
- [49:52]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [49:53]
Tracy Thomas
Like, you don't trust the instinct. And again, I think that instinct is the thing that makes a creative person go. Like, only you can have your own instinct. And like, only you can trust that your ideas are good or bad or worthy of time or whatever. And, like, if something's getting in the way of that mechanism, it can be really damaging. What's not in the book that you wish was or could have been?
- [50:22]
Trey Johnson
Oh, my gosh. There's. Somebody asked me this the other day. There's so many things. So my friend Crystal Brandt, who is an old college friend, she's a professor at St. Mary's College in Maryland, she gave me this book, this little hymnal book that I actually make reference to in the book in Black Genius proper. But I had this longer thing about how she gave me this book that is a minstrel hymn book that is. That was created by a white female composer back in the early 20th century that's really intended for white choir audiences to basically do singing blackface. And I had a much longer thing about the book about shows like Mad Men and pop culture references like Golden Girls, a couple other Designing Women, all of whom had done different things around blackface and blackface and performance that we ended up cutting out. Yeah, it was. It was very indulgent, but like. But it was me writing to the clarity that I needed. Yeah, there's also this great show from the 70s called Soul that I had during my. Or in the chapter that's on surveillance, I had a long ode to Soul, which was like 70s public broadcasting late night show done by this black queer male who. I cannot think of his name right now. It's killing me. But he used it as kind of like this late night show format that was almost like a salon. And it brought through a cross section of people like Harry Belafonte, Nikki Giovanni, Sidney Poitier, lots of performers and stuff. And people would come in talking about the craft of the thing that they would do, but that they would. But then they would also talk about the social context in which they were asked to do this craft that they were doing. And so I had a long passage about that. And then the last thing I'll quickly say too is like, that my editor also quickly cut out too, was that I really wanted to do something exploring in my performance chapter. I was trying to explore what does it mean for black adult film stars to do the work that they do in such a racialized context. And the research I found around, particularly black women who were enduring so much humiliation and disrespect through the venue of that work was something I just wanted to elevate a little bit more and look at what is the enjambment of those types of tensions and some of the most intimate encounters you can have with people done for an invisible audience and yet still operating in the systemically horrible American context too.
- [53:10]
Tracy Thomas
Sounds like you have three really good books or essays to write for me to turn into my class.
- [53:17]
Trey Johnson
I want to do nothing but keep writing. I love writing so much. So much.
- [53:21]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, let's talk about how you write. And I'd love to know how it changed from when you had the job when you were saying you're writing on weekends and late night to when you became a full time. Not. Not that full time.
- [53:35]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [53:35]
Tracy Thomas
Piece are together of jobs and writing.
- [53:38]
Trey Johnson
Yeah.
- [53:39]
Tracy Thomas
So like, where were you? How often music or no snacks and beverages.
- [53:45]
Trey Johnson
I love this line. This is my favorite part of your interviews.
- [53:49]
Tracy Thomas
Often it's my favorite part too. I have to do all. All the other stuff to just be like, what are you eating? And I should just start a show. Called what are you eating? And then I wouldn't have to read all these books and I could stop pretending to be interested in literature. Like, what. What a. What a hack.
- [54:06]
Trey Johnson
By. So when I left a job, you know, I did, I did the thing to your point around instinct as a creative. The biggest thing that. That became clear to me is like, I gotta be away. So I live here in Philadelphia, but I periodically. I basically did my own sabbaticals from sabbatical residencies from time to time. So I spent about three different times. I spent upwards of two months in Montreal. I went to New Orleans. I was in Kauai, Hawaii. I was in Napa Valley area. I was in D.C. i just constantly felt that like. And this is. Some of this is like mental health stuff. Some of this is like the scope and expansiveness of doing a book for the first time. But I was like, I just need to find places and areas to turn down the volume of my brain and distractions and just winnow in more on this book. So I did that a lot. And whenever I was in these places, I stuck to what I call my compassionate routine, which is like I no matter what, I started no later than 10 and then I usually stopped around 7pm each day.
- [55:23]
Tracy Thomas
That is compassionate. That feels like a long day, Trey. Holy.
- [55:28]
Trey Johnson
Well, I want to be clear too. That includes snacking and eating. That includes naps. And also like, I mean like, like many writers will tell you like it sometimes. My most productive day was thinking about the book often.
- [55:42]
Tracy Thomas
And so that's not. It's not ten to seven at the computer.
- [55:47]
Trey Johnson
No. But you know, it is the thing of. My nuanced answer is like, it is a 10 to 7 of what it means to be a writer. Sure. Which is.
- [55:54]
Tracy Thomas
Sure.
- [55:54]
Trey Johnson
Yeah. Totally.
- [55:55]
Tracy Thomas
Totally. Totally. I just was thinking you were like sitting down at 10am like writing all day, maybe stopping for lunch. No, it was like 10 to 7. Focus on the book, focus on the thing. And then the other time was like, focus on whatever you wanted.
- [56:11]
Trey Johnson
Got it? Yeah.
- [56:12]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, that makes sense. And what were you eating?
- [56:17]
Trey Johnson
I was so nervous about this strand of your question.
- [56:19]
Tracy Thomas
This line of questioning has gotten really toxic. I always tell people I don't ask gotcha questions, but honestly, this is the gotcha question. What were you eating? We need to know. And drinking. And drinking.
- [56:31]
Trey Johnson
So one thing I did, I like limited my alcohol consumption in general when I was in the most heaviest parts of the book. I just did not want to have that dynamic with me in writing. And then two, I would say my Biggest snacks. I love peanut M and Ms. I would eat those a lot. I love cashews. I would eat that a lot. I know.
- [56:54]
Tracy Thomas
Peanut M and M. You got me. I'm allergic to tree nuts, so peanuts I can have. Peanut butter I can have. But once people start talking about nuts, I'm just like, sorry for me. Can't indulge.
- [57:05]
Trey Johnson
Sorry for you. It's right. And then like, every once in a while, like, I'm a big sucker for a warm chocolate chip cookie. And so especially on the days where I felt like I hit a particular milestone.
- [57:18]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [57:18]
Trey Johnson
That's how I treated myself.
- [57:19]
Tracy Thomas
A reward. A cookie reward. I love this.
- [57:21]
Trey Johnson
That's right.
- [57:22]
Tracy Thomas
I love a cookie.
- [57:22]
Trey Johnson
That's right. Oh, teacher me.
- [57:25]
Tracy Thomas
When you were still at the job, were there rituals that you did to transition from I'm at the job all day to late night writing? Or, like, how did that look?
- [57:36]
Trey Johnson
Yeah, I. Regardless of what vocation I have going on in life, my big thing is that I don't do anything on the computer until I've taken a walk in the morning. And then, like, I try not to do any screen stuff first thing in the morning. And then. And then to that job writing transition, same thing. I often found, like, the best way to reset myself was to step away, go for a walk. No, I would not listen to podcasts. I would not listen to music. I do listen to music a lot when I was working on the book. I'm a big music fiend in general, but those periods of just, like, quiet and just resetting my brain through walks was my biggest thing.
- [58:16]
Tracy Thomas
I love that we're at the very end, so I just have to ask you a few more quick questions. One is that. What's the word you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [58:23]
Trey Johnson
Ambiguous.
- [58:24]
Tracy Thomas
Ooh, good one. Hard. Okay. For people who love black genius, what are some other books you might recommend that are in conversation with black genius?
- [58:34]
Trey Johnson
Who? Good question. I would say Kiese is heavy. Sure. Oh, my God. And his essay. I mean, yeah, he. As a living being.
- [58:47]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [58:48]
Trey Johnson
I like to think it's a conversation with aspects of this. It's a good question. I'm trying to think of what. I love this book. Black Women Writers at Work. Black Women Writers. Yeah. I love that book. I think it's seminal. I think everyone should be reading it. I would say that, too, in some respects, because of the craft around writing and holding multiple identities. I can't think of what else off the top of my head right now.
- [59:13]
Tracy Thomas
That's great. Last question. If you could have one person, dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?
- [59:21]
Trey Johnson
Timely, Emotional question for me. My dad. My dad, who passed in February this year. Thank you. Thank you. We had an estranged relationship, and I talked about this in therapy that I really was hoping this book would represent an opportunity for us to reconnect. It'd be something for us to celebrate together. So I wish he was here to read it.
- [59:47]
Tracy Thomas
That's very beautiful. Okay, I don't want to cry, so let me just move off this, okay? No easy transition. But everyone, it's okay. You can build a bridge to Trey by getting his book Black Genius. It's out now, wherever you get books. I listen to some of it on audio. It's great. It's a great audio. It's such a great time. You read it and it's fun. And. Yeah, so get it on audio. Get it on the page however you like. And Trey, thank you so much for being here.
- [60:17]
Trey Johnson
Tracy, thank you. I mean, I. I'm sure you've heard this before, but, I mean, you're so humble about this, but what you're doing really is a gift to writers and readers out there.
- [60:28]
Tracy Thomas
Ah, thank you. Everyone. Go get your copy of Black Genius. Trey, thank you for being part of the Stacks. And everyone else, we will see you in the Sex Foreign y'. All that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Trey Johnson for joining the podcast. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Lauren Morrow for helping to make this episode possible. Reminder. The Sex book club pick for August is Raiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, August 27 with Alexis Madrigal in. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack community. And you can check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and check out our website atthestacks podcast.com. today's episode of the Stax was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wykea Frillo. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks was created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.