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- [00:00]
Narrator
Searching for a romantic summer getaway escape with Rich Girl Summer, the new Audible original from Lily Chiu, the exquisitely talented Philippa Hsu. Returning to narrate her fifth Lily Chu title. This time Philippa is joined by her real life husband, Steven pasquale. Set in Toronto's wealthy cottage country, a.k.a. the Hamptons of Canada, Rich Girl Summer follows the story of Valerie, a down on her luck event planner posing as a socialite's long lost daughter while piecing together the secrets surrounding a mysterious family and falling deeper and deeper in love with the impossibly hard to read and infuriatingly handsome family assistant, Nico. Caught between pretending to belong and unexpectedly finding where she truly fits in, Valerie learns her summer is about to get far more complicated than she ever planned. She's in over her head and head over heels. Listen to Rich Girl Summer now on audible. Go to audible.com richgirlsomer you know, Mississippi.
- [00:56]
Addie E. Kitchens
Is home of the blues and I didn't like the blues for most of my life until I became an adult and I heard a young man from my high school and he was singing a Jay Blackfoot song and I was like, why is he singing this with such passion? They tell a story of Cheryl Cropping, but being able to go to the juke joint and dance after that, I think to be able to be funny, to be able to be express yourself in a state that tries to silence that out of you and understanding at the same time that Mississippi is the source of that creativity, I think that's. I don't know if that explains it.
- [01:33]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it does. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and today I am joined by by Addie E. Kitchens. She is the debut author behind one of my most favorite novels of the year, Dominion. If you are a lover of Black Southern family dramas told with a little bit of humor and a few twists, I think you should stick around for today's conversation. Without doing any spoiling, Addie and I talk about this book, how it came to her, how long she's been working on this project, and the ways that hypocrisy, longing and masculinity tied together to tell this incredible story. The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, August 27th with Alexis Madrigal. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, if one episode a week is just not enough for you, then you're in luck. You can join the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribe to my newsletter on Substack to get bonus content like Episodes, access to our Discord community, participate in our mega reading challenge, and so much more. Head to patreon.com thestacks and Tracy Thomas substack.com to join. Now it's time for my conversation with Addie E. Kitchens. Okay, everybody, I'm really, really excited about this one today. I have started screaming about this book on the Internet, basically the moment I got about 10 pages in and I get to talk to the author of so far, my favorite novel of the year. I am joined today by the author of Dominion, Addie E. Kitchens. Addie, welcome to the Stacks.
- [03:35]
Addie E. Kitchens
Thank you so much, Tracy. Thank you for having me.
- [03:38]
Tracy Thomas
I'm so. I mean, I'm. Thank you for saying yes to me. I was like, this woman is not going to want to talk to me because she wrote a great book. Like, she not have time for me. It's your debut.
- [03:48]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yes. Yes. Yes.
- [03:50]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my God.
- [03:51]
Addie E. Kitchens
I've been waiting a long time for this. Like, a long time.
- [03:55]
Tracy Thomas
You know how long?
- [03:57]
Addie E. Kitchens
Well, I'm 45 now, so I think I've been writing from the moment I started reading or the time, the moment, maybe even when my mom started reading to me. So I've been writing forever.
- [04:08]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, before we even. I want to talk more about that, but before we get there, will you just tell folks in about 30 seconds or so what Dominion is about? And I should have said this before, but I'll just say this now, no spoilers.
- [04:21]
Addie E. Kitchens
So Dominion is a novel based in Dominion, Mississippi, and it's about a small town pastor and his wife and their golden board boy son. And the story is told from the perspectives of the boy's mother and his girlfriend, Diamond. And it tells you how hard we love and what we miss when we love so hard.
- [04:46]
Tracy Thomas
Gosh, this is so. I want to just tell people listening. This is going to be a hard interview at the beginning because I don't want you guys to know anything else about the book. Basically, we're going to talk about some of the themes we're. It's going to feel a little cagey. You're probably going to be like, why aren't they saying other things? But just trust me, this is one of those books. The less you know, going in, the better. I Think. Do you? Do you? Let me ask you that. Is that how you feel about the book? Because there are things that happen that are not there at the beginning that you maybe don't see coming. How important is preserving that piece for your reader?
- [05:23]
Addie E. Kitchens
It's very important, because let me tell you, I saw a review online, Details so much, and nobody looked that up, but I really. Yeah, I wanted to come as a surprise, you know, because I feel like it's deceptively simple. And then you kind of realize, wow, this is what this is about, you know?
- [05:43]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's no secret. I'm. We both share a mutual friendship with Kia say Lehman, who is the one who put this book on my radar. Every time I ask him what to read this year, he's like, dominion. Dominion. I'm like, okay, fine, I'm gonna read it. And I remember I text him the first day that I started the book and was like, I really like this. Like, I think it's really good. I'm having a fun time. You know, I'm loving this. It sort of reminds me of church ladies a little bit. Like, both Addie and Disha have this ability to, like, see a character and just let you see them with one or two sentences. And he was like, it's sort of like that. And I was like, okay. Like, am I an idiot? And then I read another 30 pages and was like, okay, I see. I see where I was wrong. But as far as, like, bringing twists to your audience, how are you, as the writer, approaching sort of like what you tell us, what you don't tell us? Because not only are you doing that with us, but this is also a book about secrets a lot. And so your characters are doing that with each other. So how are you sort of weaving those dances together?
- [06:52]
Addie E. Kitchens
I guess it was just. It took a lot of time, I think. I'll say. I think I've been writing this novel since I've been doing my earliest observations in church. And so seeing what people were and who's knowing who they were outside of the bound, you know, boundaries of the church thing, I think that influenced me. And, you know, I call myself a nosy writer, so I'm always Steve's dropping. And so when you listen in as much as I do, you notice what people are saying and what they're not saying. And I think I want to, you know, And I think for me, that's our lives, that's our relationships, what we express and what we don't express, even with the closest people we know there are certain aspects of self, I believe we don't express. And so, you know, I think it was trying to strike the balance of being one's real self and being one's project itself, and how we dance around that in our interactions with others every day. And with people like these who have, like, so much to lose, it becomes even much more important for them, the things that they have and the things that they project, you know, and keep things distinctly separate.
- [08:06]
Tracy Thomas
When you say that you're a nosy writer, does that mean that you're a nosy person who writes, or does that mean that you're nosy about your characters?
- [08:14]
Addie E. Kitchens
I'm a nosy person who writes. Okay, great.
- [08:16]
Tracy Thomas
Well, I'm a nosy person who interviews, so that's why I interview. Do you like to gossip?
- [08:22]
Addie E. Kitchens
I'm not necessarily. I like to hear gossip.
- [08:24]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I know you do like to gossip. You just don't bring enough to the table for the rest of us.
- [08:30]
Addie E. Kitchens
I'm the observer, you know, I'm all in it.
- [08:33]
Tracy Thomas
You know, you said that you've been writing this book maybe since your mother started reading to you. Did you always know you wanted to be a writer or were there other aspirations for you throughout your life?
- [08:46]
Addie E. Kitchens
I've always known I wanted to be a writer. There are other things I thought I wanted to do throughout life. Because I started school as, like, a biology physics major. Don't be impressed. I was terrible. And I remember being in biology lab, and this guy tells me, addie Kishams, that's not a doctor doctor. Because I told myself, everybody says if you know you're from a small town, you do well on standardized tests. You're a lawyer, you're going to be a lawyer, a doctor, engineer. So I thought I wanted to be a doctor. And so we were in this biology lab, and he was like, addie Kitchens isn't a doctor's name. That's a writer's name. And I was like you, you know, because I always known that. And so the very next year, I changed my major. And, you know, so since then, I'll scribble things down. I've not always been consistent. But once I started writing this, you know, it came when it was supposed to come, because I've had drafts of this now or finish maybe years and years ago, but it wasn't right. And so I had to live life. That's something my grandmother used to say. You have to keep on living. I had to keep on living to be able to put it together in the way that it came together. And I. I do think this is the way it's supposed to be.
- [10:02]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. I'm so curious. So when did you start actually writing Dominion?
- [10:10]
Addie E. Kitchens
Probably like 15 years ago, actually put in pen to paper to try to write this. And so I would write a couple of pages, throw it away. So I think I had a complete draft of this probably maybe eight years ago.
- [10:26]
Tracy Thomas
And then. But you knew it wasn't right.
- [10:28]
Addie E. Kitchens
I knew it wasn't right.
- [10:29]
Tracy Thomas
So then what do you do from there? Like, you just put it down, you go do other stuff or do you obsess over it for years? Like, what's that?
- [10:38]
Addie E. Kitchens
Basically I wrote other things in between, you know, and so I'm kind of like a cycle writer. So, you know, a lot of times, like, if I write a short story, sometimes it can come out in one. One, maybe a week or maybe one setting. But if I write a short story and I'm still interested in the themes and the characters and the people and I don't get the. I don't believe it's right. I'll let it sit. And I. So I just cycle around projects and so I had come back to this one and, you know, that's when the FSG fellowship came up. And it just came up. Right at the time I was cycling, it was swimming.
- [11:17]
Tracy Thomas
I see. So you'll put something down and go right on. Something else and go right on. I see. Sort of like a merry go round of app story.
- [11:25]
Addie E. Kitchens
I'll try to write on it as long as. If I can't get an ending out of it, if I can't get a satisfactory arc out of it, I won't keep doing it. I don't want to force it to do anything.
- [11:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, this book sort of moves around. The vibes change, the mood changes. It's sort of hard to figure out what's going on. It is. I don't think. I don't think people call it this, but in my reading it felt sort of genre bending, if you will. How do you think about these types of things? These like sort of outside imposed ideas like genre or story or whatever.
- [12:02]
Addie E. Kitchens
I went to MFA program and the first, the. The professor I took most often for fiction writing, he wouldn't let you write a full draft. He would let you bring in two pages. And if those two pages didn't have this thing called yearning. Yearning, he wouldn't let you workshop a story. So I spent so much time stultified by what he had done to me in that workshop that I Wasn't, you know, once I broke out of that faith, because I didn't write from the time I didn't write anything new in my fiction workshop. So from the time about. From about 2005 to like 2012ish, I didn't write basically, you know, because I just felt like, you know, because of.
- [12:50]
Tracy Thomas
This teacher sort of thing.
- [12:52]
Addie E. Kitchens
Exactly. And so once I freed myself from that and I just decided never to let anybody define what I did. And you can't refine what I say I said what I said and I said it how I said it, you know, and there's a certain musicality from. Because I'm from a small town in Mississippi, there's a certain musicality of where I'm from that cannot be squeezed into technically perfect fiction.
- [13:21]
Tracy Thomas
Sure.
- [13:22]
Addie E. Kitchens
So, you know, we've been, you know, we've been genres every day. It's black folk to me.
- [13:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [13:28]
Addie E. Kitchens
So I think that's just reflective in what I. What I was trying to do here. Yeah, we're not even trying to automatically. Right, exactly.
- [13:37]
Tracy Thomas
I think that what I'm about to say is maybe something is a half baked idea I'm having. But just listening to you talk, I sort of feel like genre is useful when something is mediocre, but when something is really good, genre quickly becomes like a barrier or it's almost like it scrambles whoever the audience is. It scrambles your understanding of the thing. I don't know if that resonates at all with you.
- [14:02]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yes, very much. And also I think a lot of great fiction got left behind. Not enough people read it in a serious way because it was, you know, automatically thrown into that genre thing. And so, so I think we miss. We miss out a lot with trying to force labels on things, you know. Yeah, good art should transcend labels anyway.
- [14:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, you should.
- [14:27]
Addie E. Kitchens
You shouldn't be able to boil it down.
- [14:28]
Tracy Thomas
Right. You shouldn't exactly know what it is if it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. It's funny though, because you said that your teacher said yearning. And one of the things I have written down about this book is longing, which I think are cousins. And I feel like this book is like steeped in longing. These two women, Priscilla and Diamond, who are our main narrators, they're our main sort of guides through the world of the town of Dominion and the. The men that they love in this town. They both have so much longing. How do you. I think longing can be trite or cute or feel extremely flat often. So I'm wondering Were you thinking about that or does that. Did that just happen? Like, what were you trying to put on the page?
- [15:29]
Addie E. Kitchens
I think I just wrote what I observed, you know, and I observed women longing for. That's all they did. That's all they did. You know, it's not like a, you know, a swoon and pine and longing. It's a thriving, big, huge, jawbreaking thing that directed everything they did. So. So that's. That's why I think, you know, they long so much. Because that's what I've seen. That's what I know. And whether it was for love, whether it was for acceptance, whether it was for just the minimum of respect or treatment, I've always seen women long, you know, and it's kind of like, you know, I think, you know, unfair in ways, but it's also tender and beautiful, I think.
- [16:18]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think it is too. And I think there's so much conversation in politics and news right now about men and masculinity and male loneliness and how men are so broken. And I don't think that that's. Any of that's wrong. I think that is. I think we're getting to the root of the thing. But I feel like in this novel, you've written directly into the center of that. And I'm curious what you make of masculinity and maybe like, the ways women are sort of tasked with being the keepers of masculinity or like, interested parties in it.
- [16:59]
Addie E. Kitchens
You know, I always say this statement, I always will, and the community I came from, which is a particular kind of black community, and it may extend to more, but I know they hand girls responsibility while handing boys power. I guess when you realize, like. Like almost all you known, like almost all you've been taught is some subtle form of a misogyny, you know, we are like Sigmund Freud wrote a whole bunch of. About penis envy. Nobody envies. It's an ignorance. You know, I think we've been fooled by misogyny. We've been fooled by the patriarchy. We've been fooled by supremacy. That's much as much as what masculinity is as it is, you know, white supremacy. So I think I wanted to see, like, two generations of women navigate that and how this idea of, like, sometimes we get this. Well, all of us had this idea first that agreeing with this male privilege thing is what officers protection in some way. And so I think, you know, this is like this novel is them unlearning it. And as you'll see in the novel, you might unlearn the habits, but, you know, sometimes you go right back to it.
- [18:22]
Tracy Thomas
Right? You know, say, old habits die hard or something.
- [18:24]
Addie E. Kitchens
Right, Exactly.
- [18:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And I feel like just because you see something doesn't necessarily mean that it changes you or that you have the tools to change. Like, I mean, I think that's something that is happening right now in this country is like, I think a lot of people can identify a problem, but not necessarily fix it. I don't know. Fix feels like such a small word when you're talking about all these big things, but. Okay, well, I mean, let's talk about Mississippi. That's where you're from. That's where the book is set. I'm from California, and I didn't know that people in Mississippi were the greatest writers in this country. I didn't know that. I've learned that since I started doing this podcast. What does it mean to be a writer, a black writer from a state like Mississippi?
- [19:21]
Addie E. Kitchens
It's resistance. You know, Mississippi is home of the blues. And I didn't like the blues for most of my life until I became an adult. And I heard a young man from my high school singing. We were at some kind of game in Mississippi State, and he was singing a Jay Blackfoot song, and I was like, why is he singing this with such passion? And then I just started listening to him. Like, this is. These are songs I've heard all my life. So. And they're beautiful and. And they're terrifying in their sweet and all of those things. And they. They tell a story. They tell a story of. Of like, sharecropping. But being able to go to the juke joint and dance after that, like, you know, and I. Like my grandfather, I remember him being at. On my grandmother's porch, and he was signing a contract, and he put an X on the contract because I didn't know my grandfather was illiterate. And, like, he was born in him. Like, my. My grandfather and grandmother were. Oh, like, they had a lot of kids. And so my grandmother. My grandfather was born in, like, 1910. And so he was like, 65 when I was born. No, he was. No, 70 when I was born. You know, so that's Mississippi. But also the ability to be able to. To make all of those things we've seen because. And still be geniuses, you know, in that way. And I mean, I'm not aggrandizing myself in that way, but I think, you know, that. I think to be able to be funny, to be able to be glittery, to be able to be. Express yourself in a state that tries to silence that out of you at times, even with what we talk in religion, you know, the. The ways our parents did it. I think being able to do all of that. But despite being from Mississippi, you know, and understanding at the same time that Mississippi is the source of their creativity, I don't know if that explains it. It does, you know.
- [21:33]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it does. I mean, I just think, like, clearly Mississippi, you know, has something to say. Right. Like, I feel like clearly there is just such storytelling coming from. From the state. And I am for. I, for one, am grateful for all of you, like modern black Mississippian writers who have changed, I think, the course. And I'm including you in this because I. I see the vision for your career now. I just feel like you all are doing something so special and so good, just like good writing. But it's also the setting of your book, Mississippi. Do you. Do you think that you'll always write into Mississippi? I'm a Californian. I have had many Californians on the show, many of whom write fiction about California, and they're like, I'll never write about anywhere else. There's nowhere else I need to write about because there's so much here. So do you feel that way about Mississippi, or do you think you want to go outside?
- [22:39]
Addie E. Kitchens
You know, my. You know, I think mostly the south, of course, you know, not necessarily just Mississippi, because I, you know, I think, you know, the stories, like the novel that I have coming out next, it will be about. It takes place in. In Memphis, because Memphis was a big part of my childhood as well. So I think, yeah, mostly the south, but not always just Mississippi. And, you know, I've been living in. I've lived. I've lived in Louisiana and New Orleans, you know, for like, 15 years. And so you can't not write about New Orleans. So I think, you know, mostly from the way. From the places I've lived the longest. Yeah, I think my. But it's all a similar thing. That's why I think I'm in New Orleans, because it's so similar to Clarkel, you know, especially, you know, with the music, you know, that kind of thing. It's just a feeling, you know?
- [23:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I feel like, you know, this is sort of hard, maybe hard to articulate, but I feel like we understand that, like, boundaries and, like, states and all of that is just all arbitrary stuff and, like, certain things are cultural to the state or whatever or regional, but that, especially when it comes to black folks and like the nature of the slave trade and all of that. Like, it's hard to sort of delineate place.
- [24:02]
Addie E. Kitchens
Right.
- [24:02]
Tracy Thomas
Like, my people are from Louisiana and so. And I'm from California, as you know, with the great migration, like so many people, everyone I knew in California, basically their family was from Louisiana. And so there are these things that are like, that we're connected through place, even if we're far from the place.
- [24:20]
Addie E. Kitchens
Exactly. And, you know, like, I always feel like California writers are lucky because you do have everything there and it can be so metropolitan and crisp, you know.
- [24:31]
Tracy Thomas
I'm bored by California things, I think, because, you know, I'm from here, but I feel like. I don't know. I. Yeah, I think, I guess it's probably like the grass is always greener kind of thing, right?
- [24:40]
Addie E. Kitchens
Oh, you definitely would not want to be anywhere, you know, anywhere in Mississippi, especially compared to get, you know. But I don't know, I do have certain ideas about black folk in the south, you know.
- [24:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Wait, let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back. Okay. Turning the stacks from an idea into a reality is one of the things I am the most proud of. But listen, it was extremely hard for even me to believe in this idea 100% of the time. I remember thinking to myself, what if I can't find the right guest? Or what if nobody listens to the podcast? I still have that fear. Or how do I sell merch? Or a million other things. Turning your ideas into actual things is so incredibly hard. But that's where finding the right tools like Shopify comes into play. It can make this doubtful process into something that maybe you can feel a little bit more confident in. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the United States. So it's safe to say they know a little something about business. Stressed about designing your website? No worries. Shopify's got you from the get go with beautiful ready to go templates to match your brand and your style. Stress about getting the word out about your business. Shopify helps you with your customers with easy to run social media and email campaigns. And if you ever get stuck, Shopify's got award winning 24. 7 customer support. And they're always there to help turn those business dreams of yours into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com the Stacks. Go to shopify.com the Stacks shopify.com the Stacks hey everybody, it's Tracy and it's time for a take home test for all of you. Raise your hands if you've been enjoying the stacks. Okay, I can't see your hands, but I am feeling the vibes like it's definitely raised. And if it is, I've got two places you can go to keep the book vibes going. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter, Unstacked on Substack. The Stacks Pack is where it's at for listeners like you who want to join a bookish community. We've got book club meetups, a private discord, our year long mega challenge to help you push your reading goals. Because not everyone is reading on a deadline for their podcast like I am. Plus, members get new bonus episodes and every month. It's a great way to support me and the crew and also to connect with other readers. Now over on Unstacked, I keep the conversation going twice a week with posts to cover everything from mini reviews, rankings, pop culture, hot takes and rants, a little bit of shade, and whatever's on my tbr. There's a free option over there. Or you can subscribe for even more content, including those bonus episodes I mentioned before. Plus, from now until September 22nd, if you join the paid tier on either platform, you have access to to my annual nonfiction reading guide. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers, support this black woman run independent podcast. Come hang out with me on Patreon or Substack or both. I would love to see you in the stacks. Okay, we're back. And I want to ask you a little bit about the structure of the book. We've talked about how there's these two alternating narrators. There's also this other third piece which we won't talk about, that comes up throughout the book. How. How did you decide to do alternating? Why did you decide to do that? Are there versions of the book where it's one or the other or someone else all knowing? Like how do you kind of figure out who's talking to who and how?
- [28:26]
Addie E. Kitchens
It's always been these alternating narratives and at some point there, you know, you got significant portions from both saber and both sabre and Wonder Boy.
- [28:38]
Tracy Thomas
And that's the preacher husband and then the boyfriend son.
- [28:42]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yes, exactly. And so I didn't think that was necessary. I like, I think I said this before, you know, CIS hetero males are the apex predators and so it's like asking the wolf to explain the hunt. He just gonna eat you. He just wants to eat you. So I didn't think Necessarily, like, it was something that had to be done, so I'm glad I kept it like this. And I think the structure. I wanted to be representative of the community, like a communal voice. And so how. You know, how it's kind of like how we all fit in together. I kind of wanted to be, you know, just like that.
- [29:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I love. I mean, I love the mix. I also think the book is, like, sort of funny. It's like. I don't. It is funny. Like, there were moments where I was laughing out loud or, like, it's almost has, like, some satire elements to it. Especially early on, when. Which I really appreciated because it brought. I felt like it brought me in in an unexpected way that I really like. That was sort of delightful and also something to hold onto as things changed throughout the book. How much were you. Were you thinking about humor, or are you just sort of a funny person?
- [29:58]
Addie E. Kitchens
You know, I've been told I'm funny. I've been told I'm a human champagne bubble. So I think, you know, it's just like that black folk thing, you know, that, you know, even in the midst of the worst circumstances, somebody's gonna crack a joke and you don't want to laugh, but you kind of gotta laugh. And sometimes it's like you laugh to keep from crying or screaming. So it's that kind of thing, you know? And, you know, everybody, you know, almost my whole family is kind of funny. So I don't know if I could have written it without it being funny, because the shit is not funny. The story is not funny at all. But, you know, there are moments, and I think that's just like life, you.
- [30:37]
Tracy Thomas
Know, I'm obsessed with a human champagne bubble. Who called you that?
- [30:42]
Addie E. Kitchens
Me.
- [30:43]
Tracy Thomas
You call yourself that?
- [30:46]
Addie E. Kitchens
No, but I have been told I have a sparkling person.
- [30:48]
Tracy Thomas
I can see it. I get it. I'm into it. I'm bought in. I want the champagne. How about naming your characters? How do you name them?
- [30:59]
Addie E. Kitchens
It's just like, sometimes I just put a name down. And so the way I write is that I kind of read everything over and over again until I won't change anything in a section.
- [31:10]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [31:10]
Addie E. Kitchens
You know, and so as I go over the novel, I'll stick some names. Priscilla's name is always Priscilla.
- [31:16]
Tracy Thomas
Okay?
- [31:17]
Addie E. Kitchens
And so her name came from my childhood preacher's wife name. But she. Her name is in Priscilla, but her name is similar to Priscilla.
- [31:27]
Tracy Thomas
Okay?
- [31:28]
Addie E. Kitchens
And so I use that, you know, because I always love her. She's a sweetheart. I think diamond had another name before, but then once I changed it, it just stuck. It's kind of like, you know, it's a perfect name. It's a perfect name for her and think, you know, and like, you know, you said the satire part, I think, you know, with Wonder Boy, of course, you know, but there's a Mississippi tradition where there would be boy wonders. And there are normally young boys who professed that they were called to the pool pit early or, you know, boys who would play instruments. Well, you know, and so he technically is a boy wonder. So I just got his name right.
- [32:15]
Tracy Thomas
Because he is all of those things and so much more that Wonder Boy. What a cutie. What about the title and the COVID How involved were you in the COVID How soon did you know this was a title? Was this always a title? Was this something that happened later?
- [32:33]
Addie E. Kitchens
So, no, that this wasn't honest. The original title was. I had been having a working title. I think it was in the Image of the Beast. And we kind of like, you know, they asked me, my editor asked me how. How married are you to this title? And I'm like, not at all, you know, and so we kind of. I think. I think I was in Mexico and we had like, we were on a zoom and we were just talking it through and I think my editor came up with it and she was like, dominion, what do you think about that? And I was like, whoa. Because, you know, it kind of. I wanted to be like self fulfilling prophecy. Not because I wrote this novel, because I think it bears a lot of thought and, you know, it might change somebody's minds, you know. So I really loved it when she suggested it. So that's how it just kind of stuck after that. And I was like, I can work with this. As for the COVID there was another design that I really, really loved. But, you know, we couldn't get some clearances. I think the author didn't want it altered. I don't know. I'm a black. I give TMI all the time. So I hope that's. She didn't want to alter it. But I loved it so much because it was symbolic and it kind of looked like fallopian tubes to me. And so, you know. But anyway, so the graphic designer at FSG came up with the design and so I altered. Like, you know, the steak was thinner. I helped with altering that. And then they had different colors and I'm like, I know these colors is thin. These colors are what I had all in mind.
- [34:15]
Tracy Thomas
The green and the yellow, right?
- [34:17]
Addie E. Kitchens
And so no, the green and the gold. They added the red.
- [34:21]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [34:22]
Addie E. Kitchens
And so I was like, yeah, because I think it was. They sent me some copies of it being black. And I was like. And I sent her swatches of the sofa in my house. It's like this. This green right here. And I really love how the color look. I really love how the green and the gold look together.
- [34:44]
Tracy Thomas
I love. I love the COVID Yeah, I love the COVID I think it looks so good. And I like the red, too. I love the red after the E in your name. I don't know, it's just sort of like. It's like a little tiny detail that I just really like. I don't know why.
- [34:57]
Addie E. Kitchens
I love that too. And I'm like, I wouldn't even. I didn't even. I would have thought maybe white. Something that's like, you know. But then I saw the red and I just fell in love with that, you know, And I read that. I consider it like blue, you know?
- [35:11]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's just like, kind of like. Like sinister. Just a little.
- [35:16]
Addie E. Kitchens
I don't know.
- [35:17]
Tracy Thomas
I just like it. I just. I mean, I think this is no secret. I think FSG has some of the best covers in Absolutely. Literature right now. Like, I think it's Rodrigo Corral. Is that his name? Who's like the head over there? I think. I don't know. Anyways, whoever's in charge over there, they're doing great stuff. And I am a firm believer in the covers matter, so I appreciate their work. What was the hardest part about writing this book?
- [35:45]
Addie E. Kitchens
Getting it, Andy. So, because, you know, like I said, it's been. I had a draft a while ago and I think I shopped it around once and the ending wasn't right.
- [36:01]
Tracy Thomas
And so did you know the ending wasn't right when you started shopping it around?
- [36:05]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But when I just didn't know what to do and I had to, like I said, I had to keep on living life. And so I wrote this. I self published this little pamphlet or this little book, and I would get up and get it, but I don't have any pants on. The game owes you. And it's a black girl's guide to dating in this patriarchal age. Right.
- [36:35]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [36:36]
Addie E. Kitchens
And so I had stuffed a bunch of them over my social media and stuff. And I realized I had to write that little self help book to be able to get the. To the ending for this novel. And so I had written around the same time I had gotten the first fellowship. And so between writing that and reading my own words, in that. Then Jenna Johnson asked me, is this novel saying what you wanted to say? And perhaps when I wrote it in my mid. My early 30s, perhaps it did say what I thought I wanted to say. But at this point in my life, after the evolution of me and after I had written that little panel, I realized, no, absolutely not. And that's all it took, was that one question, and I'm eternally grateful for that.
- [37:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, Janet Johnson, also fantastic. I mean, you have sort of this dream team, right? It's like you have PJ Mark as your agent, who I'm obsessed with, who is, like, I don't know, doing the. Put, like, getting the best things into our hands. Like, I have. I just feel like I'm like, oh, PJ Mark is the agent on this. Like, if not for him, I don't know, 30 of my last, most favorite books of the last 10 years never exist, Right? Like, he's just doing. He just. I don't know. A genius. Jenna Johnson at fsg, a genius. The COVID like you, it's just like this dream. And I didn't obviously know any of these things about the book before I'd seen the COVID but aside from that, I didn't know any of these things. And of course, as I'm, like, reading your acknowledgments, I'm like, oh, of. Of course.
- [38:16]
Addie E. Kitchens
Of course.
- [38:17]
Tracy Thomas
This makes so much sense that all the great people would be flocking to this great book because it's, you know, great. But I do. I love this idea that Jenna was just like, this is what you wanted to say, and you were like, nope, not at all. And then did the ending come to you quickly from that? Like, did you immediately know what to do?
- [38:36]
Addie E. Kitchens
Very quickly. I was on the deadline anyway, and I'm not usually good at writing on the deadline. You know, I don't do things and deadlines. But when she asked that question, I was like, oh, man, you are absolutely right. Let me get this done. And it just kind of. Kind of just came out from there.
- [38:53]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I've got some questions for you about process, which is, first and foremost, how do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often do you listen to music? Do you do it in your home? Do you do it out in the world? Are there snacks and beverages? Rituals, the whole thing?
- [39:08]
Addie E. Kitchens
I'm normally a writer in my home. So, like I said, I've always worked sort of odd jobs. And so I had a writing schedule where I would write in the morning, then I would do some kind of exercise. And then I would write in the afternoon. And if I was like writing on the first stage of this novel, I might write a third time just around whatever job I was doing. Also, it depends, like, and when I'm actively writing, there is a song that I have associated to whatever I'm working on in the moment. And so what that does is kind of click my mind right into what I'm trying to do. I get my coffee, I get my joint. Can I say that? Yeah, yeah.
- [39:50]
Tracy Thomas
I'm in California, so you're safe here. I don't know. Can you say that where you are? I don't know.
- [39:55]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yeah, I'm in New Orleans. So, you know, it comes down. So, yeah, I get my joint, I get my coffee, and then I turn the music on. Now, when I'm kind of like it, like when I get to a standstill in, in the story, what I'll do is listen to the story and I will listen to it as much as it takes to not edit anything in that section. I might make small edits after the fact, but no big edits in the session. Then I'll be able to move on. And so during that phase, you know, I just do that silently because I'm just listening and, and trying to make sure it's all because I'm. I'm very nitpicky. I'm like period semicolon. Like, I'm that kind of writer. Even though, you know, just because of a very particular cadence I like you know, to hear. And I feel like that cadence kind of like propels you to the end of the story quicker, you know, I like to write so that, you know, you read it quick and you come back, you know. So I like. I'm like, maybe you can get this done in one sitting just because. Just like the cadence. I. I very much work with sentence structure a lot. And so, yeah, I'm a. I'm a routine writer. I write maybe like 8 o' clock and then I'll write again at 2. Like I said, if I'm doing something long, I'll Write again at 8. If I'm doing a short story two times a day, I'll do it, you know?
- [41:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. What. Can you tell us what the song was for this book?
- [41:27]
Addie E. Kitchens
This song was. There are two different songs for this one, there was like the song that's used at the beginning of the story. Each of like those church programs, there's a song called I'm Just a Nobody Trying to Tell, you know, that's like a song by the Williamson Brothers. And also, there is a song, and it's called. There is this song by the Patterson A. And it's the Seven. The Seven Seal song. Who wrote the book of the Seven Seals? In the story he reads, that's how he starts the sermon.
- [42:00]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my gosh. Okay.
- [42:01]
Addie E. Kitchens
He starts. So if you go listen to the song. It's so jaunty. I love it. And I just listen to it, and then I. And then I'll get started, you know.
- [42:10]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [42:11]
Addie E. Kitchens
Listen to it a couple of times, actually. You know. Yeah, you have to listen to the song. It's so.
- [42:18]
Tracy Thomas
I'm gonna link to it in the show notes so people can go find it and listen to it. You've mentioned having lots of odd jobs. What are some of the oddest jobs?
- [42:28]
Addie E. Kitchens
So one of them, I used to work as an extra because they film a lot of stuff in New Orleans.
- [42:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [42:35]
Addie E. Kitchens
And I would go, you know, those are the days. I couldn't get my writing schedule out. But I usually do it, like, three days when they're doing. Doing something or. One time I was, like, a farm teacher. Yeah. It was a big farm at City Park. And you teach the kids about the native species and stuff. Yeah. Anyway, it rained really hard one day, and I never went back.
- [43:01]
Tracy Thomas
No, thanks.
- [43:02]
Addie E. Kitchens
Thank you. I worked a lot with, like, you know, kids. I worked as a tutor. That was like three. Three hours a day. Okay. But they play, they pay well per hour. And I had, like, a studio apartment that was like 600 in, so it was just enough to get by. Then I worked in for a long time at the city's Broadway Theater as a house manager. It was, like, the funnest job ever. You got to see all the shows, and then you only work, like, from five to, like, 11.
- [43:33]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [43:34]
Addie E. Kitchens
You know, that works for me. You know, it works for my schedule. So.
- [43:37]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [43:37]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yeah.
- [43:38]
Tracy Thomas
I love this. I love this. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [43:44]
Addie E. Kitchens
Curriculum stuff. That one always kind of. Oh, Also unnecessary. Like, I always get that wrong.
- [43:55]
Tracy Thomas
Can you do necessary or both?
- [43:57]
Addie E. Kitchens
It's usually unnecessary. It's like, is it two Cs and two Ss? Like, is it U, N, E, C, E, S, S, A, R?
- [44:04]
Tracy Thomas
I don't know. I'm a terrible speller. That's why I asked this question when I started doing this podcast. I didn't used to ask that question. And then one day I was like, I'm just so curious. Like, what are all these smart, geniusy people who come on my Podcast like, I wonder what they can't spell. And then I started loving the answer so much that I just never stopped asking it, but also made me feel good about myself because I'm such a bad speller. And then someone who's, like, won a Pulitzer Prize will be like, I can't spell tomorrow. And I'm like, I can spell tomorrow. I could win a Pulitzer Prize one day. No.
- [44:37]
Addie E. Kitchens
Oh, I believe.
- [44:38]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, I write on the Internet. I have to write things on the Internet, but I am not a writer. I do not call myself writer. I hate writing. It is by far the worst part of my job. If I could do this, just talking and asking questions and interviewing people, I would gladly, gladly do that. I just like books, but I don't ever want to write one. Hopefully the book isn't out yet, so I can't ask you. Well, I could. I can't ask you this question because you don't know, but I'm wondering for you, like, what will success look like or feel like for you as you enter this sort of major life bucket list moment?
- [45:22]
Addie E. Kitchens
I know, first of all, like, you know, okay, so, you know, however long in advance and, you know, the presidential elections and stuff, and I'm like, I've been thinking it was like the end of the world, maybe the world again before, you know. I know, right? That's nice. But, you know, it just feels like. So it's been kind of like, you know, like this balance of understanding what's going on and feeling for everything that's going on while trying to, you know, get excited for your own project. So, you know, it's kind of been, like, late just getting excited about it. But success for me looks like conversation. Like. Like, a lot of people are talking about the things, you know, and what that means and. And what might change, what, you know, what ideas people have that might change as a result of it, you know, and, of course, selling a million copies. That'll be.
- [46:18]
Tracy Thomas
We're gonna do that. If I have anything to say about it, we're gonna sell a million copies of this one. I mean, I have to say, as soon as I finished the book, the only person I knew who had read it was ksa. And I just text him, and I was like, I am dying for this book to be out so that I can talk to people about it. I've been pressuring people who I know have access to early books. I'm like, can you. Can you please go read this now so we can talk about it? Like, I really need to Talk about this. Somebody. Can somebody read this? So I think. I certainly think it's gonna inspire a lot of conversation, and I'm really looking forward to that. Like, as we're recording it, if we still have, like 10 days or something before the book. Like nine days, I don't know, like that before the book comes out.
- [46:55]
Addie E. Kitchens
Yeah, eight days.
- [46:57]
Tracy Thomas
Who's counting? You?
- [47:00]
Addie E. Kitchens
Who cares?
- [47:00]
Tracy Thomas
Eight days, whatever. But I'm just like, I can't wait. So I imagine, you know, you're probably feeling like that to you, like, the end.
- [47:09]
Addie E. Kitchens
I was telling my partner, I was like, oh, am I going to make it to Tuesday? Next Tuesday? Am I going to make it?
- [47:16]
Tracy Thomas
Do you have a plan of how you're going to celebrate the day? Or, like, do you have any idea what that. That, what that day will look like for you?
- [47:22]
Addie E. Kitchens
I'm gonna drop it like it's hot. I'm gonna champagne it up. I don't know. You know, I've been practicing silence lately just because, you know, like, since the book has been coming out and all this advanced stuff, I've been having to talk more. Like, I, most of the time have my days to myself, you know, and so the conversations that I have with people are, you know, very much curated. And, you know, you. You can call, but you're not probably gonna get no answer. So that kind of thing. So I've been, like, enjoying my last, like, times where I can really be silent. And I've been practicing that because if not, you know, my mind erased, but all the things that could be or could not be or, you know, so I'm practicing, you know, being calm. And hopefully that'll help what, you know, whatever it looks like, you know, the detachment thing, you know.
- [48:22]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, totally. For people who do go out and read this book, who love this book, what are some other books you might recommend that are in conversation with Dominion?
- [48:33]
Addie E. Kitchens
You know, honestly, like, I haven't read that many book that kind of, like, you know, because I always think of, like, maybe like sula, maybe like, I guess, dusting off your old Color Purple. Also, you know, I like, like, I think for, like, setting the scene and this, this heaviness is actually heavy, you know, that, that, you know, KSA's memoir, you know, very much in. It's just like, you get Mississippi.
- [49:08]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [49:08]
Addie E. Kitchens
And so in that connection, like, this really is this place.
- [49:12]
Tracy Thomas
Because, you know, you know, this is. Okay, this is only first and first, I'm gonna say a book that I didn't like but is in conversation only because I read these Books back to back, and there's, like, some crossover similarities. It's not a book you're ever gonna think of, but your book in Demon Copperhead have a lot of similarities.
- [49:34]
Addie E. Kitchens
I have not read that one. Should I.
- [49:36]
Tracy Thomas
No, no. But, like, so in the book, the main character, he's never been to the ocean, and there's characters in your book where it comes up that they've never been to the ocean. And I was like, what are the chances it's set in a rural community or, like, in a small town that, you know, sort of is, like, overlooked or not written about a lot? It's just like, there were all these little connections. However, demon copperhead is 600 pages and made me want to pull my eyes out. And this book was a delightful read that I read in about 20 minutes because I loved it so much. Not true, but I devoured it. But as I was reading your book, I was like, what are the chances that these, like, little connections would be made between these two totally different books? So that was a sort of fun moment for me.
- [50:18]
Addie E. Kitchens
I have a thing. You know, it has to be really, really good for me to read 600.
- [50:23]
Tracy Thomas
Honestly, it has to be so good, or it has to be, like a necessary history. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you're writing, like, a history book and it's like, you need 600 pages to tell me the story of this war, fine. But if you're just telling me about a kid in Appalachia, I'll kill you. I, like, I. The. The rage I have for Demon Copperhead currently is just. It's off the charts.
- [50:49]
Addie E. Kitchens
But, you know, like, the Mississippi Delta and Appalachia, they normally keep each other off the bottom, you know, or whatever is bad.
- [50:57]
Tracy Thomas
Whoever's out there, it's like a.
- [50:59]
Addie E. Kitchens
Exactly. Well, you know, the. The Deep south in general, you know.
- [51:05]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's why I was sort of like, there's these. There are these similarities between these two stories. They're told totally differently. The plots are totally different, but there is this sort of sense of place. I mean, that's the one thing that that Demon Copperhead does well, which you also do, is like, there is a strong sense of place. You feel the place. It is part. It is a character damn near in the book. I just have one more question for you. If you could have anyone dead or alive, read Dominion, who would you want it to be?
- [51:32]
Addie E. Kitchens
Oh, goodness. It would have to be Toni Morrison. Because of that thing of writing, you know, writing the book you wanted to Read, you know, so and then she was just my idol. I was like, you know, you know, that was like my literary grandmother. And I always say, you know, because if my grandmother, because my grandmother also was under educated. She, she left school at third grade and so but she had a very very, she was very sharp witted. She was very intelligent. She was very practical. She could, you know, she was also very a body genius. She was chopping wood when she was 78 and 79. You know, she could swing an ax and nobody in my family could swing an X and chop a log. Nobody. Not right now. So I think, you know, my grandmother, I would love her. I think she would be delighted at it, you know.
- [52:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I love that so much. Okay, everybody listening to my voice right now. If you can hear my voice, clap once. If you can hear my voice, go out and put by Dominion for multiple reasons. One, I think you're going to love it. Two, I would really like to talk about it. And three, Addie said that she has to sell a million copies to feel successful and we want her to feel successful. Right? So let's, like, let's help people check off their goals. It's community care. We can, what we can do to help each other. But in all seriousness, I love this novel so much. I'm so happy that I got to read it. I am so happy that I got to talk to you today.
- [53:07]
Addie E. Kitchens
Today.
- [53:07]
Tracy Thomas
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
- [53:11]
Addie E. Kitchens
Thank you so much for having me. You are the best. You're like a champagne bubble, too.
- [53:15]
Tracy Thomas
Thank you. I was hoping you'd say that. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Addy E. Kitchens for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Brian Gittis and Shirley dawn for helping to make this episode possible. As a reminder, our book club pick for August is Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Camero, which we will be discussing on Wednesday, August 27th with Alexis Madrigal. If you love the stacks and you want bonus episodes and inside Access, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks pack. And check out my new letter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media. At the Stacks Pod on Instagram threads and TikTok, and check out our website@thestacks podcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Das with production assistance from WIA Fro. Our graphic designer is Robin McCra Kreit, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
- [54:34]
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