B (3:33)

Yes. So good to be back.

A (3:35)

So happy to have you. We are talking today about the modern classic, modern non fiction classic, Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teaching of Plants by Robin Wall Science Kimmerer. Before we even get into our thoughts, I'm going to remember now to tell you people what the book is about. And also there are no spoilers today because these are just essays. So if you haven't read the book, that's totally fine. But the book is Robin Wall Kimmerer is an indigenous woman and also a botanist. She's an academic and she has written these essays that sort of weave or maybe perhaps braid together the idea.

B (4:13)

I see what you did.

A (4:14)

You see what I got Professional, I'm a professional person here. These ideas of indigeneity, these ideas of plant wisdom, these ideas of community gratitude and kind of uses different plants and nature elements to talk about what she sees as what we should be doing in our relationship to nature. It's sort of a manifesto, I would say.

B (4:39)

Oh man, I, is it even a book? I mean, I think about that, you know, like this is, it's like a worldview in a box. It's a guide to indigenous in what we call North America. It's a new language for life and living things. It's a parenting guide. It's an anti capitalist manifesto. It's a memoir. It's a pan to the forests of the eastern seaboard. I mean, this book is, it's so many things. And the thought that I kept having was everybody knows this book. Maybe not everybody, but this is one of the most popular books that's been written the last 15 years, certainly in the kind of nature y realm. So a lot of people I know know this book, and I hadn't read it. I felt bad about it. And in part of the reason I hadn't read it was I kind of felt like, well, I know what the Beatles sound like, right? Like, do I need to listen to the Beatles? Like, the Beatles are in every music now, you know? But then. And I would say, even, like, the Beatles, like, you hear, like, don't let me down or some amazing Beatles song. You think, like, damn, that person is really good at this. And that's how I felt about this book. I thought, like, even though so many of her ideas and even the language that she uses to describe things have kind of made their way into the culture, certainly in the East Bay, in the Bay Area, but the actual prose, the way she did it, the storytelling, the specifics, and the precise control she has over all this botanical detail, it's just really good.

A (6:09)

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to give my initial thoughts, and I. I have slightly unpopular opinions about this book, I think. Okay. So I also had never read it. I, Similar to you, was like, I think I'm going to. Like, I know the gist. Like, I think I know where she's going to go. I was wrong about that. I was extremely impressed with her writing, with the way that she did the thing that, like, every essayist, memoirist tries to do, which is like, here's this, Barry. And then, like, here's the story, and now here's what it means to me. She did it better than basically everyone who's done it. So, like, I'm like, the writing and like you said, the command of the actual science, all of that total wow, this book is too long. These essays run together. They run it. It is a disservice to the work she's done because there are so many essays in this book that I can't even remember. And I finished the book last night. Like, I've only been reading it for the last. And I'm like, there are some essays that I probably will never forget that I thought were just brilliant beyond measure. And then there's some essays where I'm like, I don't know. There was, like, the umbilical cord one that I'm like, I don't know. I already. I've already forgotten what she was even talking about. So I feel like she needed an editor to be like, robyn, you're not wrong, but they can't handle it. It's too Much like, it's just too much. Robin. It doesn't need to be 400 pages. She could have done half the essays, half the book and had the exact same impact. Because by the time we get to the end, for me I was just like, yes. Gratitude, reciprocity. Got it.

B (7:49)

You're like, humans are the only. You're hungry, you're eating gorp. Just to get to the end. Yeah.

A (7:53)

Yes. I'm just like, I gotta get there. But I'm just like, we get it. Humans are the only animals that have reciprocity or have gratitude. We gotta show gratitude. We gotta treat each other well. So like, to me, it was just like almost too much. Less would have been more for me in this one. Which is not to say that I don't think that she is a fantastic writer and that like each individual essay is beautiful and strong on its own. But as a book, I was just. I was done a long time ago.

B (8:22)

I mean, that's why I was like, is this a book? I mean, to me, that is a really. It's a really interesting. Like sometimes books work, I think, because they're perfectly self contained and they just are exactly what they should be. Lost and Found by Kathryn Schulz is just like this little slim volume and it's like everything you ever wanted it to be. And then you finish it and you're like, okay, this is done. I think some other books work in a different way by leaving all of these kind of connection points, all these little ports to like everything else. And I think one reason why this book has been so successful and has been cited so many thousands of times by everyone is like, if you're working on anything related to the land, the environment, plants, industrial waste, environmental justice, there is a connection point for you into this. And she probably said something really good about it. It's like the book that launches a million epigraphs. Like, pick a book, you could have a wonderful Robin Wall Kimmere quote at the beginning. I agree with that.

A (9:31)

I think that's right. Like, I definitely think that any essay you read, you, there's something for you. But as a book, I was just like, like, it. It starts to lose its.

B (9:45)

I totally agree with you on this.

A (9:46)

Actually, like, by the time I got to part four, I was just like, I gotta go, you know, Like, I was like, I gotta. I like, I can't believe I still have like 150 pages. Like, I feel like I have done what I was asked to do. I've read the book and yet still she's asking me to keep reading the book that I already read because I read the other essays.

B (10:10)

It's almost like you didn't even finish the Power Broker. You know?

A (10:15)

Exactly. I do want to talk though, a little bit since you, you brought it up already. Why do you think this book has become what it has become? Why is it so beloved not just by authors and writers of nature, but everyday regular people? Like, when I posted it, so many people were like, this book changed my life. And that's it.

B (10:39)

That's why.

A (10:40)

Yeah, that's why there was just like these nuggets that.

B (10:43)

I think it's a life changing book. I honestly do. I think another way to think about it is like you wouldn't take the Bible and read it like front to back, right? I mean, this is like the gospel.

A (10:53)

I wouldn't read the Bible period, though, right?

B (10:56)

No, I know, I know, but you know what I mean? Like, but like people don't read the Bible front to back in this way. Right? But this is like a. It really is like gospels. There's like the Parable of the Pond, you know, there's this like the Parable of the Lilies. Like so many of these stories have an actual texture to them or they're like meant to be returned to. They're meant to be turned over. They're meant to be a story that like lives with you. And I think she's very successful at that. To your point, you could never metabolize all of the stories. Yeah, right. And maybe that's okay. Like, I feel like this might be also a book. Some books, I think succeed because you could pick up any page, read it and be like, oh, that's gonna stick with me, you know, and maybe that's nice for people, you know, Like, I think that's right.

A (11:47)

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I think the Bible analogy is actually quite good. I'm generally a person who is like so anti reading a book out of like. I actually talked about this on an episode this month on the show. I. I really dislike it. However, I do think when you have a essay collection that is truly an essay collection and not a memoir and essays, which this is not, though there are memoir elements. You should be able to pick up any essay and read it and feel like it is its own thing, that is great for you, a person reading it as a standalone essay. And I do think that is true with these essays. Certainly, like you could pick up any essay and get something out of it. Some of them I think are like, I Said before, just like, outstanding, outstanding essays, like the strawberry essay early and the pecan tree essay. Some of the early stuff is so good. But I also think part of the reason. I think probably, like, I should. That I should probably like, reread some of the later essays, like On a Fresh Brain, because I think I loved the early essays so much because I was on a fresh brain.

B (13:01)

But also she is. When she's writing about the things that she loves, which she's doing in the early chapters, everything feels so warm and the scented bath of words, and it feels so nice, you know, when she's writing about the things that. That disturb her or that have gone wrong in this world, she's no less powerful. But it's not the vibe that I. I don't want to exist in that vibe. In the same way, when she's talking about all the pollution of the lake near Syracuse, like, at that point, I'm just kind of like, reading, like, I know that story at some level, and she's doing an amazing job telling it. But I'm also sort of like, yes, industrial civilization destroyed this sacred site with no care for anyone. I don't actually want that described at such length, but I know why it's in there.

A (13:48)

And I think. And I want to come back to. To talk about cities later. That is something I really want to talk about. But I do also think that part of what didn't work for me about the book is that she approaches all of these things almost with the same tone and style. And I feel like I could have. I would have liked a little bit of, like, a feistier Robin while Kimmerer talking about this, and, like, a little more pointed. Right. Like, they. It was almost like she was talking about these things in the same way she talked about Strawberries. So I was sort of like, this all feels like the same information, but I think if it had had a slightly different tone or shape to it, that maybe those essays would have landed. Like, I mean, the one about the pollution, about Honeywell, that had another name before I did really like that one. And, like, there's one about, like, the. How did she say when Dingo would go?

B (14:39)

Right.

A (14:39)

Yeah, I loved that. I loved the first one, the Wadigo footprints one. Like, there are some of those that I really loved. But the earlier essays, to your point. Yes. Like, the way that she talks about the things that are, like, tied to her own nostalgia and, like, the. Like, the things that she does love and family lore and all of that were just so good.

B (14:59)

Yeah. Also in the early chapters, one thing she does really beautifully, I was thinking, is almost like a standup comic. Like, she'll start out something being about pecans, you know, but then you realize, oh, actually, this pecan stand had this role in sort of like, Native American history. Each time you think you've gotten, like, oh, okay, that's what the meaning of pecan was in this essay. Then, you know, four pages later, there's actually another meaning of pecan. And then four pages later, there's, like, another meaning of pecan. And so you end up getting this incredible layering of meanings over these, like, individual botanical objects or specimens or people, as she would put it. And I found that so satisfying as a reader. Like, every time I got to one of those, I was like, oh, Robin, you know, you were so good at it.

A (15:45)

Do it to me, Robin.

B (15:46)

Do it to me. That's right. That's just what I wanted. I didn't even know it, you know, totally.

A (15:51)

The one. The one that sticks out in my mind about that was the asters and golden goldenrod one. That one, to me, does that as the best of all of them, where it's like, she keeps adding these layers and, like, taking us deeper and deeper into these colors and into her own journey into academia. I thought that one was really special. I mean, I do think, like, as I'm just looking, looking at the contents list, the entire planting sweetgrass section, like, I basically wouldn't cut a single one because there's also the essay about the language and, like, learning. Grammar of animacy. Yeah, I just. Was that your favorite?

B (16:28)

I might have been. I mean, it's. It's. You know, to. To your point about this? It's the. Or my point about it might have been my point. This was the thing where I felt sucked into my own sets of interests because I had read about. You know, I'd read other people quoting her on this, and I always kind of felt like I liked it. But I was also a little bit like, I'm gonna be like, brother tree. You know? Like, I feel like at times I would. But her description of it was quite convincing for me. And I found myself returning to that idea over and over. We don't have to talk about it right now, but at some point.

A (17:01)

No, I do. Let's talk about it.

B (17:02)

You wanna talk about it now?

A (17:02)

Okay, yeah, go ahead. I lean here.

B (17:05)

So, you know the part that really caught me on this.

A (17:09)

Wait, this is the. This is the grammar of animacy.

B (17:12)

The grammar of animacy. Yeah.

A (17:13)

Which Is about the language that her tribe spoke. There's. At the time of the writing, there were like nine people left who spoke it fluently. Pootomy. Yes. And she starts to take classes and sort of is doing it as like, I'm doing my due diligence. Like, this is what you do. You know, I got a little duolingo style. Yeah, exactly. Very duolingo. She's like, hello, tree. Like, you know, whatever. Very basic stuff. And it is hard for her. The struggle is that the way that the language is set up, a lot of verbs. We're talking 70% verbs, 30% nouns. Whereas in American, English, or English in General, we're talking 70% nouns, 30% verbs. And, you know, there's nouns for like. I don't know. I gotta find what she says.

B (18:04)

But there's a lot of. I mean, the best one I remember it was Papoe, which translates as the force which causes mushrooms to push up from the earth overnight.

A (18:16)

That's right.

B (18:18)

Loved that. I loved that because it did. Like, sometimes I don't always believe that words make the world, but something like that suddenly makes you be like, wait, what is that force? You know, like, I am thinking now there should be a word for, like, what makes a flower open? You know, the force that makes a flower open. Or that, like, causes an apple to fall from a tree. You know, all these actions and active things that are happening in our more than human world. Like, maybe there should be names for all those things in part, because then we would know to look for them and think about them. And I don't know, like, that. That, like, that retuning of things was just really beautiful. I thought, in a way that I. Cause I'd heard about it. I didn't think it was going to have a big impact on me. But then it did.

A (19:07)

Wait, I want you to say more about why you do or don't think words make the world.

B (19:13)

Well, I sometimes think, you know, people are like, well, if we call people who are homeless unhoused people, then that does something. And maybe it does. Maybe it does in some long arc kind of way. But maybe we should build more shelter, breads and affordable home. Maybe that's actually more important than the renaming of things. And that was kind of my one. She spent some time on this and thinking in that chapter talking about we should know the real names for stuff and things like that. And I just don't always feel like that's what's the problem, you know? Yeah, I feel like it's more of A symptom than a cause.

A (19:55)

I'm with you because I do struggle. Like, one of my things that I think is just like such a waste of time and energy is that realtors now call it the primary bedroom instead of the master bedroom. I'm just like, I don't know. Sure, sure, I hear you. Sure. As a descendant of American chattel slavery, like, it's never crossed my mind. That being said, I do think kind of to her point or like kind of to this bigger point of language is like, if the language, language that we use in the first place is deliberate, then we don't have to. Like if we build a word world with language that we want to be using, then perhaps we act in response to that. Right? So like, like, if master bedroom obviously is just one thing in our world, so it feels very small, but in a world in which, you know, master meant something like that we'd created, you know, or even, even in the world that we live in, but that we've created language that has like, holistically dealt with chattel slavery, then yes, like, that language could be a tool to make the world better. But this like sort of half assed version of it, not.

B (21:06)

That's. That's right. It's like, yeah, like hierarchy created the idea of the master bedroom. But not calling it the master bedroom doesn't necessarily get rid of hierarchy, you.

A (21:15)

Know, and it doesn't get away with rid of like racism or all the horrors that were done or even like teenage teach a better version. Like, it doesn't even deal with why we're not saying it. It's just like, oh, we're just gonna say Brian, very bad.

B (21:27)

Yeah, yeah.

A (21:27)

Like, it's just such a. And similar to like the unhoused thing. It's like, okay, sure, I will change my language around that. And then what are we going to do about people who are.

B (21:40)

Once we recognize this, I mean, and I'll give a, I'll give a counter example to this actually, to the very argument I was just making. I actually do think that saying enslaved people rather than slave on the same topic is a meaningful change.

A (21:53)

I think, I think, I think saying enslavers is more meaningful than saying enslaved to me because, like, because I feel like slaves. I actually feel like. I think when someone says a free slave, that is a problem because that's not, that's actually slave is not, you know, but like when someone is enslaved, they are a slave. So like, I'm not bothered by that. But saying like, oh, slave owners. I'm like, no enslavers actively. So, like, I do think there are. I do think the words matter, especially when you're a person who has a platform to use words. But I think, like, the way that I mean. And this. I do want to talk about abolition because I think this book is an abolitionist text for sure. And I think that the ways in which we police words instead of policing the hierarchies themselves or letting go of the police framework totally is part of the problem. Because it allows someone who says freed slave to become a bad person when really it's like, okay, like, okay, we get it. Like, you know, don't do that again, like, try it this way. I do like this essay because it does bring up like all of these things. And I also like this essay and others. The pond one.

B (23:15)

I love the pond one.

A (23:16)

Okay, so I didn't love the pond one. I know a lot of people loved it. People. I did not like it. I just, I was like, okay, I get it. But what I liked about that and what I like about what it makes me see about Robin Wall kimmerer is that like, she is a forever student. And I admire the. Out of people like that like that, you can tell she is working and thinking through the world. And that if she writes this exact same book and takes these exact same topics in 2025, I think we get back very different essays. I think she has different thoughts about some of this stuff. I think there's different lessons that she pulls out because I think these are like almost snapshots of her. And I found that really admirable to her for her to be like, I wanted to quit. And then I was like, oh, wait a second, hold on.

B (24:03)

Yeah, I. I guess I love. I mean, again, I think I love this in really, in like a religious sense almost, or like a spiritual religion sense, you know, I. Because that's like a parable about ecological change, you know, and it's like, you think you can just. In the pond. I say, just for people who haven't read it, she basically, she gets divorced. They move up to this place in upstate New York. And her daughters basically are like, we want a pond to swim in. That was one of their things they wanted in a house. This house on this old farmhouse. And this, you know, what feels like beautiful terrain, has a pond, but it's like filled with muck, as many ponds are. Over time, though, it's spring fed and all this other stuff. And so she commits to trying to this long, long term ecological change process of pulling out all of this algae to decrease the amount of muck that's in the water so that it can be clear to swim for her children. Of course, by the time her children have grown up and gone to college, she still hasn't finished this project, which she works on over and over and over. From her descriptions, you know, just like as she had time over a period of what must have been more than 10 years, she's just trying to make this pond, like, a little bit clearer, a little bit clearer. She's using the algae to feed her farm. You know, she's just doing all this stuff that is not just leaving nature alone, but is sort of reshaping nature in this gentle, long term, kind of consistent with her biophilic principles kind of way. And I. I don't know, I guess it's just. It's an image that stuck with me. And I feel like I could go back and I could read passages of that as a parent and as a. As thinking about, like, how do you, like, reshape the environment around your children in a way that is lasting and beautiful and in keeping with the rest of your principles?

A (26:00)

Yeah, I appreciated the essay, but I also sort of was thinking, like, and when do you decide that, like, it's not your place to. To insert yourself into this space that doesn't. Clearly, the pond does not want to be cleaned. The pond wants to, like, live its own life. And I was. I think I was looking at it more as a metaphor of like, her kids don't even want this anymore. They're gone. Like, she is just, like, stuck on this pond. And I'm like, robin, it's okay. Like, you could just have a beautiful pond. It doesn't have to be a swimmable pond. It could be a pond that just does what it wants to do and you just accept that those are the gifts of the pond. And you don't have to maybe, you know, because later on, Robin.

B (26:41)

Yeah.

A (26:41)

Where's your honorable harvest? Takes what's offered to you. It was. This pond was not offered to you in the way that you wanted it. And I do think that's also like a metaphor for parenting. Right. It's like at some point you have to just be like, this is the pond I have. You know, like, I'd love for my kid to stop cussing me out every day, but, you know, this is the pond I have.

B (27:01)

But I'll take them saying frick, apparently.

A (27:04)

Yeah. Frick. Oh, your kids say frick?

B (27:06)

No, they don't. But I'm just saying that would be one possible compromise.

A (27:10)

Sure, sure. Yeah. I wish my kids would say, Frick, they are 5 year old potty mouths. Because I am a 439 year old.

B (27:17)

Where they. Yeah, where'd they learn that? Tracy Thomas.

A (27:20)

So I did like that essay, but I also, you know, I. I know a lot of people had hit them very strongly and for me, I sort of was like, okay, yeah, I see it. I see the vision. Interesting. Okay, I. Can I talk about, I think my favorite one.

B (27:35)

Yeah, go ahead.

A (27:36)

Allegiance to Gratitude. And it was the one about the Pledge of Allegiance and the her own. So. Okay. The ones that I liked the most in general, besides the first section were all the ones about how to be in community with others. So the Allegiance one, the Nation of Maples, the Wedding Go one the Honorable Harvest. All the ones that were about like, how do we actually practically live together? Because a lot of the ones that were just like, I live in a forest and I pick strawberries while I found beautiful did not apply. Do not apply to me. I live in Los Angeles, California. Like, I do not have a pond, so I'm plant.

B (28:20)

It's a plant teacher for you too, Tracy.

A (28:21)

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. My fake grass is a plant teacher for me. Don't tell Robin I have fake grass. And my garden that I started last year after reading a different book is all dead. So, you know, I tried, I tried, I'm trying. But I really liked these ones because I. I thought I found it was. Felt like a way in for me. A person who's like, not like, you're running in the forest all the time because you're running 50 miles a day. I'm just not. I'm just a city person. And, and so I really liked the Allegiance. Allegiance to Gratitude one. I. I just thought it was like really thoughtful and. And it speaks to this idea of like words matter and like how we use our words matter as well. And like, what if we were saying these words instead of saying I pledge allegiance. And also it made me think so much about like the current political climate, about what is leadership? And like, what does it mean? You know, she talks about like, leadership is vision is generous first to offer. Offer their gifts, service and wisdom. It's not about power. And I just kept thinking as I was reading this essay, like, do we have any true political leaders or leaders who are in political office? Right. Like, so many of the people that I think of as leaders are not politicians are not actually shaping the rules of the land. And I just, I found that really interesting.

B (29:59)

Yeah. You know, that gratitude. Like, the idea that the rituals of gratitude are meaningful. That one's like. It actually made me rethink that. Because sometimes I think, you know, like, at the. You're at the dinner table, and some, you know, you're at somebody else's house, and they're like, well, in our house, what we do is we just, like, provide thanks for the. I don't mean, like, saying grace. I just mean, like, although that's a version of it too. But, like, you know, that there. That you would be there and people would have some ritual about being thankful for their lives and the food and all those things. Like, I'm definitely, like, I'm informal as a person enough that those things make me uncomfortable. I'm like, why are we doing this ritual? What's happening right now? You know that? It kind of made me rethink trying to make gratitude a more active part of what I'm doing. Not just, like, thinking about it. Like, I am grateful for my life. And I do have that thought, like, pretty often. But making it an actual practice, a thing that you're building into what you're doing every single day. You know, I mean, that's what that pledge of allegiance chapter really did. There are things we do every single day, and they do shape us. Like, I do believe that change does happen that way. You know, more than shifting one word, shifting the entire focus of a ritual, a daily ritual. I mean, there's. How else could change happen? You know, that felt really important. And I guess, you know, I had a little funny experience with this too, actually, because I had just finished this chapter. Sorry, running freak shit story coming up here. And I was doing one of my last big runs before the big run that I have coming up this weekend, the 60 miler. And I was thinking as I ran my standard route, I was, like, suddenly so grateful. I was like, this canyon, its exact topography, the fact that it's cool most of the time. Cause it's shaded by all these trees and the fact that the footing is good. So I've never, like, you know, I've never tripped. I've never, like, twisted an ankle. All these specific things about this place have made it the place where I've gone day after day to, like, do this training and to, like, take that entire landscape into, like, you know, my lungs and my muscles and my heart. Like, what's actually happening when you're training like this. And I. On my way back down the run, I thanked all the trees on the way down. Like, individual trees. I was like, thank you, Bay Laurel. You know, you've been like this, like, you know, I love the smell of you, like, when I'm going by, and this oak tree. Like, I love that you're in this place. And I've always, like, noted your structure. And, like, I thanked the little strawberry creek that ran through, which is why those trees are there in the first place, place and all the different things. And I was kind of saying it out loud. I was out there most basically by myself. By the time I got to the end, I just felt so good. I was like, I am, in part repaying my debt to this place. I am recognizing its role in my life, which is quite substantial. And there's always this question of, well, what does the landscape care about you? And I know this is one of your favorite parts of the book is what if the earth loves you back?

A (33:05)

Right.

B (33:06)

You know, and so I. I was thinking about that. I was like, well, if the earth loves me back, shouldn't I at least, like, be providing? Just saying, I do love this place. So why don't I just say it? You know, just say it. Say it out loud. You love it. Thank you. You know.

A (33:18)

Yeah, I want to take a quick break because I want to keep talking about this, but we got, you know, ads.

B (33:23)

Yeah.

A (33:23)

And then we'll be right back. Hey, everybody, it's Tracy and it's time for a take home test for all of you. Raise your hands if you've been enjoying the stacks. Okay, I can't see your hands, but I am feeling the vibes like it's definitely raised. And if it is, I've got two places you can go to keep the book vibes going. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter, Unstacked on Substack. The Stacks Pack is where it's at for listeners like you who want to join a bookish community. We've got book club meetups, a private discord, our year long mega challenge to help you push your reading goals. Because not everyone is reading on a deadline for their podcast like I am. Plus, members get new bonus episodes every month. It's a great way to support me and the crew and also to connect with other readers. Now over on Unstacked, I keep the conversation going twice a week with posts to cover everything from mini reviews, rankings, pop culture, hot takes and rants, a little bit of shade, and whatever's on my tbr. There's a free option over there, or you can subscribe for even more content, including those bonus episodes I mentioned before, plus from now until September 22nd. If you join the paid tier on either platform, you have access to my annual nonfiction reading guide. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers, support this Black Woman run independent podcast. Come hang out with me on Patreon or Substack or both. I would love to see you in the stacks.

B (34:53)

Why Choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed.

A (34:55)

Can I make my site softer?

B (34:57)

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler? Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your Sleep Number setting It's the sleep number biggest sale of the year. All beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free premium delivery with any smart bed and adjustable base ends Labor Day. All Sleep number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today searching for a.

C (35:24)

Romantic summer getaway escape with Rich Girl Summer, the new Audible original from Lily Chiu, the exquisitely talented Philippa Sue. Returning to narrate her fifth Lily Chu title, this time Philippa is joined by her real life husband, Stephen Pasquale. Set in Toronto's wealthy cottage country, AKA the Hamptons of Canada, Rich Girl Summer follows the story of Valerie, a down on her luck event planner posing as a socialite's long lost daughter while piecing together the secrets surrounding a mysterious family and falling deeper and deeper in love with the impossibly hard to read and infuriatingly handsome family assistant, Nico. Caught between pretending to belong and unexpectedly finding where she truly fits in, Valerie learns her Summer is about to get far more complicated than she ever planned. She's in over her head and head over heels. Listen to Rich Girl Summer now on audible. Go to audible.com richgirlsommar.

A (36:20)

Okay, we're back. We're gonna keep talking about what we were talking about before. I want to come back to what if the earth loves you back? Because I had it like sort of really stupid epiphany, but it was meaningful to me. So I want to share it because I think maybe other indoor cats like me, which is what I call myself because also like I am the I am the girl in Robin Wall kimmerer's class. I'm not wearing heels to the whatever, but like I am. I am the guy who loves my car like I am the city person. To which she feels some level of disdain and a little maybe disgust. Which fine, I get it. You know, I I feel a little similarly about her in that pond you.

B (36:57)

Know, I'm just Brad.

A (36:59)

And, yes, me and Brad, though, you know, I hope Brad got the help that he needs. I, I, I like to think of the city as my own wild landscape, but we'll, we'll talk about that. But what I liked also about this essay, it's not just about the gratitude, but it's also about, like, the, the gifts and the duties and I think, like, that piece of it of, like, because I, I do feel similar. She talks early about her class of students where she asks them, like, do you love the earth? And they're like, we love the earth. And then it's like, well, does the earth love you back? And they're all silent. And then, you know, she says, well, what if the earth loved you back? And then they all have all these thoughts and feelings. And I feel sort of similarly to those people, which is like, I appreciate the earth. Like, I think things are beautiful. I am not a person who derives extreme joy and pleasure from beautiful settings like nature and I. Which is, like, somewhat shameful to me, I feel, especially in reading this book. But it is true to who I am. Like, that is just who I am. And I'm sure I could learn. And I try to be observant and be like, that is beautiful. But I don't, I just, I don't know. It's not for me. However, what I liked about this book is that I don't have to think that nature is beautiful to have duties and gifts that I can give back to the, to nature and the world and in the same way to receive them. And I. So I felt some freedom for myself as a disgusting urbanite to be like, right. I, I can, I can enjoy, like, I love a bougainvillea. I can enjoy a bougainvillea in the city of Los Angeles, and I don't have to be out in the world. And I can, like, acknowledge that this, this flower, like, is very beautiful to me. I just love them. They're filled with spiders. Disgusting. Found that out when we had bougainville in our backyard. But they're so, they're so pretty and so like that. Like these, like, little duties and gifts and like, that. That is okay, too. And it doesn't have to be, like, a whole big thing. I just, I don't know. I like. It helps, you know?

B (39:08)

Totally. You know, there's a. There's a Japanese American artist named Churobata, and one of the things I've really loved, one of his practices, and he lived here in the Bay Area was to draw the weeds. So he would go and he would just make sketches of, like, you know, little crappy grass along the side of the road, you know, and he would find the beauty, like, in the shapes of the. Of anything, you know. And I just this very weekend, I was like, weeding. I'd let my. I've been such a bad gardener. I'm usually a quite good gardener and very attentive, but I've been really busy and whatever. I'd been bad gardener, and I was out kind of tending, weeding and all these things. And one of the things that I love is that plants will do this thing where if they're in a crappy place, they'll grow just like how they would normally grow, but like miniature. So, like, you get like a little California poppy that instead of being, you know, a foot and a half tall or a foot tall, whatever, it just grows like 2 inches and threads out a tiny little flower, you know. And I actually sometimes find those to be the most beautiful, you know, because you're like, man, that little guy, that little lady, that little person survived in this way to flower, to get to this next part of the reproductive cycle of the plant. And now it could just land anywhere. You know, those seeds could just end up, you know, landing in the most fertile place, and suddenly there'd be like 40 new poppy plants. You know, there's something about that, like, survival where they're true to themselves. They are the plant that they are, but they will adapt. And I think for city people, that's like one of the best, like, plant teachings, you know, is like, you can really. You might not have everything you need to flower in the, you know, in the way that you might, but, like, you have enough to be yourself and to, like, pass on to the next set of people who are going to be carrying things forward.

A (41:00)

Let's stay with city people. You're a city person.

B (41:03)

I am a city person, though.

A (41:04)

You are also, like a nature boy.

B (41:06)

I'm a wannabe nature boy.

A (41:08)

Yeah. Well, I mean, you're running like 50 mil or whatever, so I feel like that's like a lot of nature. So we're going to give you. We're going to give you half and half status. I'm about 100% city person. I've only ever lived in cities. I only ever want to be in a city. I like people, I like buildings. I like all of these things removed from nature. A heathen. I'm curious what you thought. I felt like there was a little bit of her sort of throwing up her hands in, like, an. Oh, no, yikes. City. Bad. Mall bad. Like, I tried to go into the mall in her honorable harvest essay. Like, I tried to go into the mall. I tried to bring gratitude. Ugh, these pens. They're horrible. These lights, all these people. It's a nightmare. But I'm wondering, in addition to that, which was, like, sort of about a different kind of city people, I do feel like she sort of throws away a lot of people who live in cities because of the hierarchical reasons that one might be forced to live in a city, whether that is racism, whether that is capitalism, all of these sort of bigger issues. And it. I wanted her to grapple with some of that more because I want to know. I want some of her wisdom of, like, what do we do when society has harmed people so much that they don't have the choice? I choose to live in the city, and I have the privilege to do so. If I wanted to be a country person, I could do. I could go be out in the land. But there are many people who do not have that choice and who are forced to live so far removed from the city. I mean, we're talking people who are in food, desert, like. And I just. I desperately wanted her to navigate that with us because I. I felt like, yes, if you have acres and acres and ponds and forests and you love nature and you get to garden, like, you get to experience so much of what nature has to offer, but if you are never exposed to those things through no fault of your own, what. What do we. What is the reciprocity that we owe each other in those. In those moments? Like, what. What do those people owe nature? Like, how do they connect? How. Like, I just. I wanted that so badly.

B (43:28)

Yeah. There are moments in this book that I do feel like a little smidgen of just like, people are not her favorite species. Maybe there's a time when she's kind of like, you know, she doesn't like cities. You know, she lives in a place where, you know, people meet up at the Maple Hut, you know, the sugary Hut. I feel that, and I felt that throughout. As a person who really does. Actually, I do love cities. And part of the reason I love cities is the same reason I love natural places, too. It's like, there's so much life there. Like, human beings and the things that we plant and, you know, but. But most specifically, human beings. There's just. There's a lot of us, and we're in these dense places. We have these Complex relationships with each other. And, like, tending to those, to me feels, you know, I would say, for me personally, more exciting even than tending to plants, though I like plants very much and think myself as a person who likes to think about and love them. But, like, I love the complex interrelationships between peoples and their histories and this sense that, you know, in a city, we're all trying to find our way among the legacies of all these structural factors, like we talked about last time, all those things. And yet we're also still individual people with individual histories. And we need to all be at the grocery store together, and we need to go to the library, and we need to be walking on the street and driving next to each other and all these things. And people are all, like, trying to figure out the, like, human layer of the ecosystem. To me, feels like it's a huge part of what she calls, you know, naturalizing to place. Like, you know, when a plant is brought from outside and then naturalizes to place, to me, that a huge part of that, when you move to a new city or you. Or you. You just grow up, is like, learning what is appropriate in that place, you know? And so. So, for example, like, in that chapter on naturalizing to place, she's talking about how there's one plant, the plantain. White man's footprint, I think she calls it, is like, the word for it that's, like, very humble and helpful and healing in the way that it has been spread across the Americas. And then there's, like, Himalayan BlackBerry, which just takes over everything and does. Or kudzu in the south takes over everything. And so one. One thing, even though she's telling that whole chapter about with plants and using plants as, like, the ponds in this parable, is I would think, let's say you're a gentrifier moving into a neighborhood. Maybe you need. Maybe that chapter's for you think about white man's footprint and not about being the kudzu or the BlackBerry. Like, don't call the cops on the drum circle or the gospel services. Like has happened in Oakland, you know, I mean, you gotta be smart about, like, if you're gonna be in this. Like, I'm. SM is even not the right word. Open to understanding where you're moving, thinking about the impact that you're making, being healing and helpful and part of the community rather than trying to take it over. There's, like, a million things you could take from that story about how to live with each other as people in a city.

A (46:42)

Yeah, I Think that's a very good reading. Gold star for you. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think just to sort of backtrack a little bit from what I was saying before, I also understand that, like, that is not what Robin Wall Kimmerer really wants to write about. And I understand that she probably is like. And she is totally allowed to be disdainful and, like, to think these things of city people. Like, I don't. I don't want her not to feel and think those things because I. And I think that, like, I feel slightly sensitive because I recognize myself and all of the, like, worst people in the book or whatever. Though I don't take the first and the last. I can say that I leave some for others. I'm a good sharer. But I do. I did think, like, there's this whole other piece of the world, and, like, it's not the natural world anymore, but it is where so many plants and animals and, like, trees and things are still living and finding ways to live. Yeah, you're gonna have to, I guess. I don't know. That's up to you. Personal choice. But, yeah, like, I just, just, I, I. Yes, you could definitely, to your point, you could extrapolate out these things, like, from some of the other essays, and I think. I think there are other ones that I did.

B (47:56)

But wait, hold on. I want to hear. We. You said you wanted to talk about this being an abolitionist book. I want to hear that.

A (48:01)

Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I just think, like, to me, there's, like, two parts to abolition. One is like, stop punishing and hurting people. And then the other part is, like, what is possible? And if this is not a book about possibility, I certainly. I don't know what this is a book about, ultimately. Right. I mean, not just possibility about, like, what could be, but also what has been. Like, what has been literally, like, what has actually been possible. Because I do think so much of abolition is like, well, we can imagine whatever we want for the future. And I know there's an essay, and of course, I can't remember which one, where she talks about things being circular, which means, like, the future is also, like, the past, and that, like, some of the things that are prophesied have already happened. And so, like, that essay, and there were other sections where I just kept being like, sure, all of these things are possible. Maybe they don't feel possible for me right now in Los Angeles, but they are possible right now for Robin Wall Kimmerer in upstate New York. And so therefore, they are Possible for me. And like, and so I just kept thinking about that and, you know, and it's. And also, like, when she talks about restoration and about repairing the relationship. Not just repair, repairing the land. Like, if you don't fix the relationship to the land, you're gonna just keep harming it later. And. And all of these sort of. All of this language, to me that felt like something, if it wasn't necessarily about nature, that Mariame Cabo would say to me, right? Like, all of these things feel like we are not too far gone. Even when she talks about climate change, even when she talks about, like, the dumping in the lake, that there, there is. There is a way forward and there are people who are doing that work now and that it is possible. And like, we could. We could fix this and, like, we could do our part and that also, like, nature wants to do its part. Like, we're not. We are not. While we are responsible for much of the damage, we will not be responsible for much of the repair because the plants and the animals will do what they've been doing and, like, they will multiply. And so I just. There's a real hopeful element to this book. Book, I thought. And I just kept thinking of it in relationship to a lot of, like, abolitionist texts.

B (50:13)

I love that reading of it. And I also. The thing about Time was so good. I think these stories are both history and prophecy, you know, and that, like, our moment is where history and prophecy converge. And I. Man, I loved that part of it. It also made me think of Matthew McConaughey. A flat circle. Have you ever seen that from.

A (50:37)

I know the meme, but I don't think I've seen the real thing. It's like a commercial.

B (50:41)

No, no, no, it's from like. No, he also has those. No, it's from that True Detective. It was like True Detective season one.

A (50:47)

Oh, I didn't watch that.

B (50:48)

It's the only television show I've seen, so I'm glad I got to use it on this.

A (50:51)

There you go.

B (50:52)

I ended up reading almost this entire book as kind of a prophecy from a post apocalyptic people. You know, like, I think when we. When I think about some of the communities that, you know, I've reported on and been a part of, there's already been an apocalypse that swept through, you know, like, the indigenous Mexico and the Central Valley. You know, I mean, this is just like, we have the record of people recording the demise of their civilization in a way that we actually don't for a lot of. A lot of the rest of the Americas, we have black neighborhoods that were destroyed that experienced something like an apocalypse between 1950 and say the 1990s. And I think what I find really powerful about this book is this is coming from the position of someone who's part of a people who are fully. So much has been taken, so much has been destroyed of the original culture, of the land holdings of. Of the plants and the relationship that people held. Like thinking about the salmon runs and the way that they've been just totally destroyed. And then this book is still even with that. All true, basically. It doesn't even focus on that stuff. It focuses on what's still there and what can be learned from these moments. And to me, that's part of where the abolitionist connection comes from. And it even feels to me like such a live thing because of things like the Klamath Dam removal, things of this major land back or indigenous groups after hundreds of years of losing land, have been getting land back, like the Yurok tribe in Northern California. And when I think about those things, I just think what would have seemed crazier at some point in the past 1960, then the US government is going to give valuable land back to Native American groups and nations for management or co. Management like that to me is such an incredible act of imagination. It's a. Yeah, it does seem on par with, you know, the Kaaba style abolitionism.

A (52:58)

Yeah, yeah. There's a piece where she says, can America, a nation of immigrants, become indigenous to the land? And I thought that was also fast, like such a fascinating thought experiment because I do, I feel like in American white culture, which is the dominant culture of the land, there has been a decades, centuries long PR campaign to demonize other eyes, indigenous communities. Right. It's like they are. First, they're heathens, you know, they're violent, this. And then now they're sort of this, like they're, they're weird and different and they're over there and they're like tree huggers. Right? Like, and they're. And they're not, they're not with us. And I feel like this question of like, can America, which is a nation of immigrants, not just these white colonialists who colonized this land, but tons of other people. Like, instead of being a mixing pot, can we truly like assimilate to the land, not to the culture, but like to the, like to what is here? And like can we ever love it in the same way that people to whom it was first shared love it? And I. It's just such a big Question, and I don't obviously have an answer, but it is a worthy question.

B (54:36)

Yeah.

A (54:37)

You know, always having one foot on the boat or, like, one foot back in the homeland or whatever. So can you ever truly be like, this is where I am. This is where we are, and therefore, this is who we are. Obviously not erasing the people who are here first, but, like, coming to the land with a humility and a desire to be more, like, aligned with the people who are here first as opposed to, like, creating something else.

B (55:06)

Well, and it's. Yes, all of that. And I think we kind of have to. Right. I mean, I think for many of us, there's not really anywhere else to go. Right. So this is it. This is like, this is the land we're on. I think in that chapter, she says to naturalize the place means to live as if the coming generations matter. And I think, I mean, it's such a simple. It's such a simple thing. And I think sometimes it can become, like, a cliche. Like, it's literally the paper towels, you, Dubai, are called seventh generation. You know, about, like, thinking seven generations down the way. But to actually take that on in a real way, I think is, like, really significant. I mean, there is almost nobody in the United States right now who's actually living that in, like, a. Yeah, well, I mean, if you have a car, for example, or use natural gas, like, seven generations from now, the chance that you're still doing that in an industrial society is basically zero. And so what does it mean to us? Like, what do we have to do? And I'm also, you know, there are some people in the literary past who've kind of gone down this road, and I find some of them, like, to be increasingly powerful. It's so easy to parody some of these folks. Like, take Gary Snyder, American poet, spent a lot of time in Asia, but also was, you know, moved into the backwoods of Northern California and got really into, like, bioregionalism, this sense that. That, you know, why do we have political entities? I mean, talk about an imaginary thing. Why do we have political entities instead of that that don't map to the watersheds? Like, his idea was basically, like, we should have political entities that map onto the actual determinants of what life is like in a place like watersheds and.

A (56:58)

Not, like, the topography of the place.

B (57:00)

Exactly. And it's. And its operation and function. I think he specifically wanted watersheds because of just, like, the way that they happen to function. And I just thought that kind of. That's the Sort of thing that I end up thinking like, will we live in that world, you know, where our cities and all of us city people have been brought into some kind of new alignment through different political structures. And just the fact that I ended up thinking about all that stuff made me think this book is valuable for city people too.

A (57:28)

Totally. No, I think that part's right. I wanna share my little sort of stupid epiphany, but this was during I. Yeah, it's not great, but I'm going to share it. You know, I've never been one to be afraid to look stupid on this podcast, but in the Honorable Harvest essay, which. So my sister in law is a professor of ethnic studies and she teaches. She loves this book. It's one of her favorite books. She was so excited we're doing it and she's like, oh, I teach one of those essays. So when I saw her I was like, oh, what's the essay you teach? And she said, I teach Honorable Harvest. So I actually read through the whole book in order or skip that one and save that one for last. Which I'm sort of glad I did because it is sort of like the big summation piece of the whole thing. It feel. I feel like if you had to pick one essay that sums up this entire book, I think it's probably that. But the revelation that I had in this one was she's talking a lot about reciprocity as she does as she's want to do. And I just had this moment of like, wait a second, what if we actually treated Mother Earth like our mom Mom? Which like feels so stupid, but I don't know. I mean, people have issues with their moms, obviously, or they're like. But like sub and mother like figure where it's like someone who has given so much to which so much is owed that you, you know, you respect them. But sometimes you let your mom down. Like sometimes you do things your mom doesn't like. Sometimes you go above and beyond and you surprise your mom. And it's the best, best. Sometimes you do like the littlest thing and your mom is like, this is the greatest thing that's ever happened. But like that we actually, you know, going back to the grammar of animacy, like treat the earth and nature like an actual being, right? Like one being that we owe a sense of like love and kindness to it. I think like, the reason I think this is a stupid epiphany is one is because I'm saying mom, which like makes it sound stupid. And also obviously this is the whole point of the book. Book. But I just. It did finally click into my mind of, like, what she actually meant by the reciprocity. Because sometimes it's like, oh, you've given me a berry strawberry bush. Like, now I must plant these seeds for future. Like, never gonna happen for me. Right. Like, I'm just never. Like, I'm never doing that. But, like, I. I don't know. For some reason, that really clicked for me.

B (59:46)

I forgot to text Mother Earth again. Shit.

A (59:49)

Yes. You know, oh, my God. I forgot to text. Text mom that I'm gonna be late.

B (59:55)

I think that you could do. You could find a much worse guide for, like, how to be a citizen of the world than that. You know what I mean?

A (60:01)

Yeah.

B (60:02)

Like, I think that's one thing. You never make like, this. I'm gonna go somewhere with this. I hope. Do you ever make flatbreads or, like, you know, an old recipe, something people have been making for a long time, you know? But for me, it's like, I started learning to make flatbreads from Reem Aseel, you know, who's, like, a chef here in the Bay Area, and people have been making this kind of flat bread for thousands of years, you know? And so, like, you're following the recipe, and, like, I had never baked bread before. You know, it was three, four years ago. I started to, like, try and figure out, how do you deal with flour? Flour is so confusing. And, like, I'm a good cook, but I had never dealt with flour. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do flour. And I kept messing up the recipe in ways I was just like, oh, God, too much water, Too much, you know, all these different things. Oh, I didn't do this right or that right. But then, like, at the end of the day, these are, like, rugged recipes. These are things that for thousands of years, people made. So, like, they didn't have a kitchen scale. They didn't have a fucking KitchenAid. You know what I mean? They didn't have any of these things. And so the idea that you'd be able to make this roughly flat thing, put it on a hot surface, and then it would make something that was delicious that just works. And so flatbread recipes to me versus these precious. Oh, I spent all day waiting for it to proof and rot, you know.

A (61:19)

Like, come on, man.

B (61:20)

I'm not gonna get that right. And I feel like what this book has, it's like, these stories, even if you forget half of it or you only Remember a piece of it, or like, you know, this one part sticks in your mind and you mix two different things up together. It kinda doesn't matter. These are like rugged recipes for how to be a person in this world. And I kinda like. I mean, that's why I do. Again, I'll come back to my, like, gospel or like that. This is like. This has got some chapters and verses and parables that you can just pull out in all these different ways and that precise configurations don't matter. What matters is that you get that core story about what it is to be human being on earth. Love your mom. Love your mom. That's all I'm saying. Love Mother Earth.

A (62:00)

Honestly, we should end there. We usually talk about the title and the COVID but I don't know. Spraying sweetgrass, it's great. I think that's a great place to end. I think you are so right about the Bible sort of analogy. And then I also think, like the rugged recipes, I just. I do really like that. I think that's exactly right. Okay, can I say one last thing? Can I say one final. Oh, yeah, go ahead. What do you want to say?

B (62:28)

Because I'm old. I don't really know how Riz is supposed to be used properly.

A (62:34)

Okay.

B (62:34)

But there was an amazing comment on your thing, saying the Riz on this one, and it made my whole week. Yeah.

A (62:42)

Made my whole week. Yeah. Someone thought you were cool. Yeah, you're very cool. I know. No one's ever said I have Riz. How rude. We're reading the comments, people. Yeah, no, no, I'm not really. I'm not really a Riz person, but yeah, that was exciting.

B (62:54)

That was truly exciting. So thank you to that listener. You made my whole week.

A (62:59)

Thank you to all the listeners. Feel free to give us compliments at any time if you'd like to be mentioned on this podcast. Other shows have, like write in, ask, ask the stacks. No, just share compliments and we will talk about you nicely.

B (63:12)

I'll get you everywhere.

A (63:13)

That is reciprocity, people. That is loving your mom. I am your podmother. Love me, be nice to me. And also all of my guests, everybody. I've been talking today to Alexis Madrigal, author of the Pacific Circuit, which, if you haven't read yet, you must. We've been talking about braiding sweetgrass, which if you haven't read yet, now you basically have, but you should still read it. And. And if you keep listening, you're going to find out our September book club pick at the end of the episode. And Alexis, thank you for doing this with me. You are the perfect person. My little nature boy.

B (63:49)

Any, anytime, anytime. Let's take it on the trail. Yeah.

A (63:53)

Yeah. I love it. And everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Alexis Madrigal for joining the show. All right, it's time for the moment you've all been waiting for. Drum roll, please. Our book club pick for September is the Lilac People by Milo Todd. This is the story of a trans man in Pre World War II Berlin who must survive first the Nazis and then the Allies, all. All while trying to protect the people he loves most. We will discuss this book on Wednesday, September 24th, right here on the podcast and you can tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love this show, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcast, Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and you can check out my website at the stacks podcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wykea Frielo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite, and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.