Podcast Summary: The Stacks Ep. 387 – "Full-Time Literary" with Denne Michele Norris

Release Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Denne Michele Norris (Editor in Chief, Electric Literature; author of When the Harvest Comes and Both/And)

Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, Traci Thomas is joined by Denne Michele Norris to discuss her journey to becoming "full-time literary," her work uplifting trans and gender non-conforming writers of color, and the complexities of writing and editing simultaneously. The conversation covers the conception and impact of the anthology Both/And, discusses current cultural backlash against trans individuals, and explores what literary activism means today. The episode rounds out with vibrant recommendations building a “trans literary canon," reflections on reading habits, literary taste, and plenty of book recs.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Denne's Path to "Full-Time Literary" (04:20–08:22)

• Denne introduces herself: Born in NJ, raised in progressive Cleveland Heights, OH.
• Childhood and early love of books: Her mother required someone to read to her 10 times a day.

  “...my mom had a rule that every day someone needed to read to me ten times a day.” — Denne (05:41)

• Initial academic trajectory: Prepared to become a lawyer before the 2008 recession changed her plans; chose to pursue writing full-time despite financial uncertainty.
• Becoming fully literary: Dette became "full-time literary" only in 2021, upon accepting her position at Electric Literature after years in nonprofit work, especially serving queer communities in NYC.

Robust Life Outside of Literature (09:59–13:58)

• Balance matters: Denne stresses the importance of a life outside of literature for creative well-being.
• Figure skating: Denne’s lifelong passion, competitive history, and nonprofit work with Harlem youth.
• Friendships: Values relationships with non-literary friends, especially for keeping perspective and sanity away from the pressures of Goodreads and publishing.

The Story Behind Both/And (14:48–18:56)

• Origin: Following her historic appointment at Electric Literature, Denne noticed a lack of trans people—especially trans people of color—featured or platformed in major literary conversations, despite increasing discourse about them.
• Response to the cultural climate: Developed the Both/And series to intentionally publish trans writers of color, fundraised successfully to compensate contributors fairly, and parlayed the success into a book deal after a "kick ass proposal" (18:20).
• Impact: The anthology provided vital visibility and jumpstarted writers’ careers.

Culture Wars and Literary Activism (18:56–27:12)

• On political backlash: While the pendulum has swung toward conservatism and increased hostility to trans communities, Denne felt prepared—seeing cracks and backlash before they hit the mainstream.

  “...it feels validating because I was right...the cracks were already there..." — Denne (20:47)

• Activist or not? Initially hesitant to claim the label, Denne accepts being called a "literary activist," emphasizing her vision to centralize trans people of color in the industry, moving them from anecdotal to central roles.

  “...we are not anecdotal, we are not bonuses. We get to be central in this industry...” — Denne (26:03)

Writing, Editing, and Tender Queer Stories (27:12–31:17)

• When the Harvest Comes: Denne’s debut novel is described as a hopeful, sweeping interracial queer love story dealing with grief and allowing femme queer people of color space for romantic dreams.
• Editing vs. being edited: Editing is “easier”—it’s easier to see solutions in others' work; as a writer, she struggles particularly with narrative structure since she doesn’t write in order.

  “...I can often look at [a manuscript] and see all of the different paths...as a writer, I can do that for myself up to a point.” — Denne (29:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On full-time literary life:

  “For the writer, it isn’t necessarily always the healthiest thing ... you have to have a robust life outside of the literary world.” — Denne (08:31)

• On literary activism:

  “My entire vision as an editor is so much bigger than me. It’s about the people that I can bring to the conversation...to change or grow the face of literature.” — Denne (26:03)

• On trans representation in publishing:

  “I do not want trans people of color to ever be. We are not anecdotal, we are not bonuses. We get to be central in this industry.” — Denne (26:53)

• On seeing the culture shift coming:

  “...for a lot of trans people, we could see the writing on the wall. The cracks were already there...” — Denne (20:47)

• Accepting Literary Citizenry:

  “You are that bitch.” — Denne (25:11)

Book Recommendations and the Trans Literary Canon (36:56–41:14)

Traci asks Denne to help build a trans literary canon. Recommendations include:

1. Tori Peters

   • Detransition, Baby
   • Stag Dance

   "Tori is amazing. Yes." (37:27)

2. Milo Todd – The Lilac People

   • Denne hasn't read it yet, but is excited due to its focus on trans history in WWII-era Germany. (37:52)

3. Benedict Brown – Hot Girls with Balls

   • Cited as timely, brilliant, and reflecting current discourse about trans women and sports. (39:41)

Other titles discussed:

• Nevada by Imogen Binnie (previously canonized)
• The Other Olympians by Michael Waters

Rapid-Fire Book Chat (47:27–61:08)

• Two Favorite Books: The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout (47:33)
• Book Denne Hates: Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger (47:49)
• Reading Style: Focuses on literary fiction but enjoys romance and the occasional literary thriller; listens to celebrity memoirs on audio (49:22–50:16)
• Favorite Celebrity Memoir: Kerry Washington's Thicker Than Water (50:27)
• Recent Book Loves:
  • Home Seeking by Carissa Chen (51:13)
  • Skin & Bones by Renée Watson (51:49)
• Current Read: Sula by Toni Morrison (52:09)
• Go-to Recommendation: Ghana Must Go by Taiye Selasi (53:46)
• Book that Made Her Laugh & Cry: Britney Spears’ memoir (59:19–59:35)
• Last Book to Teach Her Something: Black Moses by Caleb Gayle (59:43)
• Book Never Read (Slightly Embarrassed): Lolita (60:23)

Additional Highlights & Fun Moments

• Denne and Traci's "MAGA/Maga" debate: A playful back-and-forth about pronunciation and the influence of Ezra Klein, blending book talk with cultural references (43:35–47:04).
• Denne on Harry Potter: Still values the childhood memories but won’t revisit the books or introduce them to future children due to J.K. Rowling's stance (58:35).
• Reading setup: Chair or couch, cold water, wine/coffee/latte, and snacks like popcorn or almonds preferred (56:32–57:32).

Important Timestamps

• 09:59: Balance outside of literary life, including figure skating
• 14:48: Conception of Both/And and intention behind it
• 20:40: Discussion on political backlash and publishing’s cultural context
• 27:12: Denne’s editorial vision for transformative/central trans representation
• 36:56: Creation and significance of the trans literary canon
• 47:27–60:39: Lightning round: favorite/hated books, habits, recommendations

Next Book Club & Outro

• Next Book Club Pick: The Lilac People by Milo Todd — historical fiction about trans people in Nazi Germany.
• Denne returns for the Book Club episode on September 24.
• For more from Denne: Check out her debut novel When the Harvest Comes and the anthology Both/And.

For all book titles and full lists, visit www.thestackspodcast.com or check the episode show notes.

Tone: Warm, candid, energetic, sometimes irreverent—reflecting Traci’s and Denne’s bookish, activist, and community-oriented personalities.