B (3:54)

Thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting. I'm kind of nerding out. Like I said, I was like, oh, I'm one of the cool kids now. Like, everyone's talking about you and the Stacks, and I just. I'm a Stan, so, like, yeah, well.

A (4:08)

I'm a you Stan. So for the people who don't know Den, can you just give us like, a little backstory? Where are you from? Maybe, like, what brought you to books? What's your.

B (4:20)

Who.

A (4:21)

Who are you? Like? Loosely. It doesn't have to be professional resume either. We'll get to that stuff later.

B (4:26)

Perfect. Well, I. Let's see. I'm just a girl from Ohio. I love to tell people that I was born in New Jersey, but I. My parents moved to Cleveland Heights, Ohio when I was one, and that's where I grew up. And, you know, I had a very sort of happy, fun childhood in the suburbs of Cleveland. I lived in a very, very progressive place. Like, you walk around my neighborhood now and there's like, you know, all of those signs that's like, in this house, trans women are women and black lives matter and all that stuff. Like, I went to a little elementary school that was called. Every school in the district had a theme, and my school was the Peace school. So that. That tells you, like, what were the other themes?

A (5:03)

Like, besides peace? What were they going with, like, the fun school, like, the rude school, like, what were the other vibes?

B (5:10)

I wish I had any clue what any other school went by, but I have no idea. I was so wrapped up in my school, but I was peacemaker of the. Every year I would, I would win that at some point. So it was just really fun. And I got to books because my parents were very, very serious and intense about academia in school and about reading. And so when I was a baby, like when I literally, like, like from newborn on until I could read, my mom had a rule that every day someone needed to read to me ten times a day. And so.

A (5:41)

Ten times a day?

B (5:42)

Ten times a day. And so by the time I got to preschool school, my teachers were like, oh, den is like first in line when we do story time and sits right up front in front of the teacher because she's so excited about stories. So I've always sort of been this really voracious reader. So in college I studied creative writing a little bit. I actually had an idea for a novel, something that was like loosely based on the Scottsboro boys. And I thought I would be a lawyer. And when I was 16 and had amassed a bunch of money, I would retire and start a second life as a novelist. But I grew up. But yeah, yeah, that's what I. That was like the whole plan. I was like, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, gonna. I'll be like James Patterson and publish 20 novels, one a year. Like, at the end of my life. I was an English major. And so I. Because of this love for reading and writing. But I graduated in the, the economy of 2008. The recession, the great recession.

A (6:39)

Oh, I graduated in 2008 also.

B (6:41)

Oh, my God. That. That's part of why we connect. Because we.

A (6:44)

Yes, we have been through the exact same thing.

B (6:47)

Yes. So all my friends who were in law school or who were already lawyers were like, listen, there's too many lawyers. Like, don't be a lawyer unless you really want to be one. And I just thought by that point I knew I wanted to write. And I was like, well, if I'm going to be broke anyway, I might as well be broke and do what I love to do, but I want to do. Yeah. And so that was it. That was it from there. And from there it. It went. And it's been slow going, but I am very happy because I am full time literary, which was always the goal was to be. I didn't know how far my writing would go. I didn't know if I was talented enough to be published. I didn't know any of these things, but I was like, if I can be in that world in any way, any way that they'll have me, whether it's as an editor or an agent or like just a reader who commentates. I couldn't imagine, like what you do, for example, at that time. But, like, any way that I can be involved in this world, I want to be there.

A (7:41)

Okay, so when did you become full time literary?

B (7:46)

That didn't happen until 2021 when I got the job at Electric Literature. So up until that point, I worked for many years in nonprofit service work, mostly in Harlem, all in New York City. I had done one year as a care coordinator for a healthcare LGBTQ healthcare startup. Like in, like, I had done that in Covid, which was great because I was serving the queer community, which I'd always wanted to do. But when I got this job, I was able to kind of set all of that aside and just devote all my time and energy to books and reading and writing and craft and like being fully immersed in this world.

A (8:21)

Well, congratulations.

B (8:22)

Thank you.

A (8:23)

I mean, full time literary is very cool, I feel.

B (8:26)

Right.

A (8:26)

It's like, it's really, it's really a certain kind of nerd's real life dream.

B (8:31)

Yes, yes, it really, it really is. And you know, it's for the writer, it isn't necessarily always the healthiest thing. That is the thing that I've come to learn. And so it just means that you have to have a robust life outside of the literary world. Because I think when you are a writer and you're putting out books, there's so much that's happening and there's so much that doesn't happen and it can be challenging to navigate so that I kind of didn't see that coming. But it doesn't negate the fact that, like, I love what I do, I love this life. I wouldn't like, even on bad days. I just think I'm so lucky that I get to do this. And I think about like going to law school. No shade to lawyers, we need them. But like, and I just think, oh God, like, I could have, like, I could be doing that, you know?

A (9:24)

Yeah. What does your. So, like, you are a full time literary. For people who don't know, you're the editor in chief of Electric lit, which is an online literary publication for people who don't know. You need to know. Electric lit is one of my, like, main sources for information about books, about what's coming, just the best. But you also are a writer, obviously, and you said, you know, writers need a rope. Like writers who are full time literary need a robust outside life. So what is your robust outside life consist of that you're willing to share with us. You don't have to get too personal, but whatever you're willing to share, I.

B (9:59)

Mean, I certainly have many friends who are in the literary sphere, but I also have many friends who are outside of the sphere. So some of my closest friends are not writers. They're all voracious readers. They all, like. They all love Goodreads, for example, which, like, I am just, like, that's for readers. It's not for me. It's not my space.

A (10:15)

Yeah.

B (10:16)

And so there was one night where we were having dinner probably four months or five months before my book came out, and I had, like, it had just started coming up on Goodreads, and people like early readers read it, and I really wasn't paying attention to it. But I told my friends, I said, you cannot talk about Goodreads around me. I said, you. I said, you have to leave. I said, you know, I have two books coming out next year. You. You need to take that conversation and save it for when I'm not in the room. Save it for the group chat that I'm not a part of. Like, it needs not be there. But I say that to say that I have. It's. It's mostly friends, but also, like, I'm obsessed with figure skating. I was a competitive figure skater growing up.

A (10:55)

That's right. Oh, my gosh. How did I forget? Of course. Yes.

B (10:58)

So all of that. So that. And I worked. I actually worked in figure skating for a while. One of the nonprofits I worked at was a place that, you know, takes girls who are from Harlem and the Bronx and kind of helps them become figure skaters. And the idea is that the skills that they. The tools that they use to learn how to figure skate, like. Like the sort of drive and the dedication to learn these skills in this extremely difficult sport will translate into them being great students, being student leaders, leaders in their community, and going off and having amazing, empowered lives. And so I worked at this organization for four or five years. And so figure skating is also a huge part of my life, and I have friends from there and from my competitive days. And I coached for a while, and so that's a big part of my life, too.

A (11:42)

There are two friends of this podcast, aside from you, who I associate with figure skating. Do you know. Do you. You know Sarah Hildreth?

B (11:50)

Yes.

A (11:51)

Fiction Matters. She was a figure skater. And she is like. I mean, like, when she told me she was a figure sk, my response was, of course, like, yeah, literally how did I not see this coming? But she fills me in on figure skating drama. But also, do you know Robert Samuels? He was one of the co authors of the book. His name is George Floyd, that won the Pulitzer. And he is like reports on figure skating a ton. I don't know that he was a figure skater, but he's like, so in the figure skating world, when there was that tragic plane accident with many of those like young figure skaters, he like did the reporting on it like he had. But he had been at the competition or whatever and had come back the day before. So he had done reporting on the competition. Like he's like very in the figure skating world, which I did not know because he came to me like in the form of this book about George Floyd, which was phenomenal. And then like, as I. I got to meet him at some literary festivals and then I like saw his reporting and I was like, this is so weird. And he's like so into figure skating.

B (12:52)

So anyways, one day I'm going to meet him.

A (12:55)

You have to meet him. He's so great. You'll love him. Do you still skate at all?

B (13:00)

I have not in many years. And I actually started training in the fall of 2020. Training, just like taking lessons with a friend again to help me get in shape and because I missed it. And then Covid happened and I haven't gotten back to it. And you know, this is like maybe to in the weeds. New York City is a very difficult place to figure skate. It's like, it's just the jet, like the way that the city works, it's difficult. And so getting to a rink is just like kind of a hassle. And so I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm starting to really miss it. And I was thinking of moving away from New York City for a while. And when I did, I was like, man, if I get back to Cleveland or if I move to the Hudson Valley, I can just hop in my car and drive to a rink. And that would be amazing. And imagine the skating life I could have again. And so it is in the back of my mind as a way. A way to either make it work or to leave and then skate.

A (13:49)

Yes, to leave. Leave to skate. You're like, I gotta move. Not because I don't like it here, but because I gotta get to a rink.

B (13:56)

Yeah.

A (13:58)

Okay. I want to start by talking about both and which is your essay collection that you were. It's an anthology, I guess, that you are the editor on the subtitle is essays by trans and gender non conforming writers of color. First of all, it's a star studded list. I mean, it's Akwaeke, Emezi, Caro de Roberta. It's just like banger after banger. There were a lot of new voices to me. There were people that I knew and loved. It's really sort of expansive. Even though it's a teeny tiny book, it's such a fast read. I was like, wait. I was like reading it all of a sudden I was like, wait, I'm halfway through what happened here. But can you tell us a little bit about the origin story of this collection both and why you wanted to do it, like where the idea came from? Because it has like a longer story than just being a book.

B (14:48)

Yes. So, okay, we mentioned in 2021 I became full time literary. I started the job as editor in chief at Electric Lit. Electric lit is a prominent space in the literary industry. And I became the first black openly trans woman to run a major publication. So there was a lot of like excitement around my appointment. Like a lot that I saw and a lot that I didn't see. Like I remember a few days after I got the job, I was in therapy and my therapist, who at the time was a black trans woman, was like, oh, the girls are talking about you in this job. She's like, no. Less than 10 people texted me like, oh my God, look at this black trans woman. And so there was this, this real sort of sense of celebration. But it was also, this was the late summer of 2021. So, you know, later, I think later that year, or maybe it had just come out, Dave Chappelle had put out another comedy special where he really was attacking trans folks. And also there was some controversy around Chimamanda and Goza Aditya and she had written a long letter. Yes, that was a whole thing. And it was interesting because what I happened to see specifically was there were people who had cheered on people in institutions that had cheered on the announcement of me getting this job. And we're also very much viscerally supporting Chimamanda and Ghosa Aditya. And I'm not about throwing black people away ever. And I'm about calling people in. So like, I'm not necessarily even super that that is nuanced, but the point for me is that this was a huge amount of cognitive dissonance. And so I. And then because we were in the news cycle, I was like, you know, there's so many people who are talking about Trans people right now. And none of those people visibly really are trans people. Like, our voices are not in the room. And especially trans people of color. And I just kept thinking, well, what can I do? What can I do? I can't. I was like, this is this problem, this issue of people, you know, using trans people as a political football is going to last. This is not a one and done moment. And so I was like, I can't get trans people booked on cnn. I do not have that much power. But what I can do is publish, intentionally publish more and more trans people and trans people of color. Because I was publishing trans white people, I was not hearing from transgenders of color. And so I said, I can publish these folks, give them a platform. Book editors read electric lit every day. Literary agents read electric lit every day. We have the power to jumpstart literary careers. And if I can get more people in the pipeline to be publishing books, there will be more people available to have these conversations so that eventually, hopefully, whenever these conversations are happening, one or two of us at least can be in the room or near the room. That was the sort of vision. And so we fundraised around this so that we could pay our contributors for our online series five times our normal rate. So we fundraised, and it was our most successful fundraiser to that point. I think we fundraised $5,000 over our goal within one month. It was everywhere. It was. We were like. It was. It was amazing. And so we were able to publish people, you know, or pay people, compensate people really well for it. And there were people who've been published by us who it has helped jumpstart their careers. And then we had the idea to maybe to try our hand at making it a book. And so I wrote a book proposal. And we did not know that it would really happen, but I did a kick ass book proposal. And in fact, when our agents went to sell it, we had an offer the same day they sent it to editors.

A (18:17)

Oh, my gosh.

B (18:18)

Yeah.

A (18:18)

That's amazing.

B (18:20)

It was insane. So it told us that people were hungry for this work to be in the world. People were hungry to hear from these voices. It's been so warmly received and I think by and large in the literary space. I think it's an interesting time right now to be publishing in a big way as a trans person, given the cultural context and political context that we're in, and given the fact that many publishers are part of large corporations. But the people like the people, the readers and the community, they want our work and so that is amazing.

A (18:56)

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that's really interesting to me about this moment, like, politically, is that. And it's touched on in the book, I think. I mean, one of the things that I kind of liked about the book is that it was written. A lot of these were written very recently. So there's references to, like, the 2024 election. I'm like, wait, this book came out really, really fast. But one of the things that I've been struggling with, just as it. As it pertains to trans people, as it pertains to people of color, as it pertains to women broadly, is like, we are in a pendulum swing back towards conservatism in a way that feels, like, extremely quick to me. I think. I think I know that these pendulums sort of swing and, like, there is, like, we move from left to right, but this feels like a real hard push, right? Like, in just a few years. And so I'm wondering, like. And more specific to you and this book as this harder push, right? I feel like the people who are getting pressed the hardest are trans people. Specifically trans women. Specifically, specifically trans women of color. And so I'm wondering to you, like, what does it feel like to have come up with this idea in 2021 when the pendulum was sort of on the left turn side and now to be releasing something into the world where you are and many people in your book or everyone in your book are sort of like, targets of a lot of rhetoric and violence and just, like, icky online ignorance. Like, things that range from, like, horrible, horrible, horrible to things that are just like, you. Like, you dumb, right?

B (20:40)

It feels validating because I was right. Like, I.

A (20:47)

Okay, like, Like, I.

B (20:49)

Like, I was right. Because this is the thing, right? Like, talking about Dave Chappelle, like, that was, I think, his third comedy special where he did that. And, like, so many people, you know, were quietly cheering him on, and he was never really canceled. Like, so some people were offended and walked out of Netflix. But because you said some shit like.

A (21:04)

Like, right, like, like, the check still cleared.

B (21:07)

The check still cleared. You doing just fine. So I think for me, and I think for a lot of trans people, like, we could see the writing on the wall. The cracks were already there, and they're not there because of nothing. So, you know, I think the crack.

A (21:22)

Sorry, the cracks meaning, like, this push towards.

B (21:25)

Yes, yes.

A (21:26)

More hate. Okay.

B (21:27)

Yeah. Like, it was like, you could tell that, like, even if only a few people were saying these things, even if only A few people were doing these things. There were enough people in the wings cheering them on that you were like, oh, this can go, this can go to the right really, rather than normally. I know the phrases go left, but like this can go really, really quickly and really drastically and really badly. And, and I think that's true. And the other thing that I always, that made me feel like I knew that this could happen was that again, in those conversations, like, you know, where people who were not trans were defending trans people and trans rights, I often felt like the things that they were saying were more touchy feely than sort of fact or evidence based. And so I was like, that's not going to hold up when people are attacking us more viscerally. Like you really, like, like people who really were knowledgeable about trans people in trans history, which is a thing I'm still learning by the way. Like we're not having these conversations. And so it felt like a lot of the acceptance that we saw and that we experienced was like sort of just like, oh yeah, like, like, like sure, like it's fine without people really, like, you know, knowing trans people, loving trans people.

A (22:45)

Yeah.

B (22:46)

Actively caring about the well being of trans people versus like, yeah, we can have a few trans people in a TV show and we can have a show about trans people and like that stuff. Fine. And so it just, so I think perhaps none of it felt real to me. And so now in a way, I, and I'm not an I say. And I can say this sitting comfortably in my little home in New York as a person who's published two books this year and like, is not necessarily in any real immediate danger. And I'm not an, I'm not an activist. But this feels like the fight that we were gearing up for. This feels like the time that we knew was coming and now it's becoming so broad. So many people are feeling it because of the rhetoric that's happening around so many people that there's a part of me that sometimes is sort of like, well, join the damn club. Glad you're here now. Like, yeah, because so much is happening.

A (23:42)

Yeah. I want to push back slightly. I think you are an activist. You might not be an activist in the same way, but I do think you're sort of a literary activist. Just like just the idea, idea of this project, like to be like, look, I'm gonna, I am going to like, not this is gonna sound worse than, I mean it, but like I'm gonna force these trans people of color down your throat. Because I'm here now, and you're gonna make space for us. Whether I have to, like, fundraise for it and get it done, like, that is definitely activism. It's like, you know, maybe literary activist feels more comfortable, but I think anyone who steps into a new role and says, like, look, pull up, and this is how it's going to work, and we're going to make it work, like, to me, that is a form of activism. It's not, you know, it's maybe not, like, how Raquel Willis does it, but I think, like, it's pretty. I mean, I think what you've done with this book and with the. With the series before is, like, pretty aggressive for publishing. I feel like publishing is so slow and, like, waiting around and sort of, we'll try this and that. And you were sort of like, no, babe, it's happening. We're doing it. We got the dollars. It's done. Like, the fact that the book even exists in 2025, when you just got the job in 2021 is like. And we know that it takes, like, a year to publish something. You know, I mean, it's like. It's like, you are an activist. I just want to say that because I don't want you to think that you're not. I think you're one.

B (25:05)

I certainly feel like I'm that. Like, I've been telling myself I was like, you know what? You are. You are that bitch.

A (25:11)

That's it. Sure. Activist or not, that is a fact, I think. Yeah, I mean, I do think that. Do you. Do you feel that way more now, this year, after publishing two books or. Like, when did you start to step into that feeling about yourself?

B (25:26)

Oh, it's very recent. Like, maybe in the last week.

A (25:32)

Oh, okay. Okay.

B (25:33)

You know, it's. It's. It's new, but I. You know, it's. I just. Publishing is so. It's so emotional, and there's just so much happening that you have to navigate just to sort of stay afloat in it. But I just have been able to sort of quiet myself and look around and be like, I published two books with, like, the two biggest presses in the world, and these are books that 10 years ago might not have been allowed to exist.

A (26:03)

Right.

B (26:03)

And so that feels pretty spectacular. And I'm just stepping into it, and I'm using it to help fuel me through the rest of the year and through the future projects that I'm thinking about and working on and all of that. But what I will say is that I just Want to do more of this. I don't know if I'll actually edit another anthology. It is tough work, but my entire vision as an editor is so much bigger than me. It's about the people that I can bring to the conversation and bring to the table. And it is about, in whatever way I'm able to, to change or grow the face of literature. I do not want trans people of color to ever be. We are not anecdotal, we are not bonuses. We get to be central in this industry. And that is what I want to achieve for us. So whatever that looks like, wherever I'm able to do that, that's the goal. And I never thought about it, but you're right. In four years of having this job, look at what I did. That's amazing.

A (27:12)

So I think it's really. I mean, there's a lot of people in publishing who've done a lot less in the last four years. Let me put it that way. Before we sort of move on to your book taste, we should talk about the novel when the Harvest Comes, that came out in April, your debut novel. Do you want to tell the people, sort of like give them like a little 30 second sizzle about what it's about?

B (27:33)

You know, I would say say it is an interracial queer love story that deals with grief, it deals with death. It's a sweeping. You know, when I was selling it, publishers were like, it's a sweeping family novel. I think ultimately it's really beautiful and really hopeful. And I wanted to tell a story where queer people of color, femme people of color, were allowed to have a sort of romantic fever dream of our lives that we want as kids. So it was. In some ways, it can feel almost fantastical. In some ways it's very realistic. Yeah, but that's what I wanted. I wanted something tender and sweet.

A (28:13)

Were you working on both the books at the same time or did you finish the novel and then start working on?

B (28:18)

Both and I mostly finished the novel and started working on both. And there was maybe one month of overlap where I was doing my final, final edits on the novel and working on both and. But for the most part, they were separate.

A (28:34)

Okay. I was just thinking, like, that's got to be a lot like, brain switch. Like, I'm the writer, I'm taking notes from my editor. And then like, I'm the editor. Listen to me, people. Shut up and listen. I got notes. Here's the red pen. Yeah. Do you have a preference, like, do you prefer to edit or do you Prefer to be edited or be the writer?

B (28:57)

I don't know if I have preference. I think it's certainly easier. I tend to feel like when it comes to dealing with writers, it's easier to be the editor than to be the writer. Because part of the job of being an editor is having a very clear eyed vision in a way that sometimes the writers struggle to, which is sort of, I think, being the writer, and that's okay. And so a writer can come to me and feel like they're having profound difficulty with a project. And if I'm the editor, I can often look at it and see all of the different paths that they can take in just a really clear way. And as a writer, I can do that for myself up to a point. So, like, I'm usually sending in, when I send work into anyone, it's usually very, very polished. But there are things I struggle with and there are things that I really need help and guidance on. And so I love, I do love being edited, but it's easier to be the editor, I think.

A (29:56)

What are the things that you feel like you struggle with or need help and guidance on? Is it like a, like a general idea or is it specific?

B (30:04)

It's usually the big picture elements of a narrative. So I don't write an order and so.

A (30:10)

Oh my God, Exactly. I don't understand people like you. So many people come on this podcast and talk about, like, I don't, like, I just. And I'm like, how. Okay, go ahead.

B (30:20)

It's one of the only ways to get me to kind of move out of my trance of fear of panic that happens when I'm staring at the, at the blank page is like, well, I can do everything about this later. All I have to do is get the words on the page and sort of, then I can place it into the larger narrative. But what that means is that I often am writing in a way that means that, that things can go anywhere in the narrative. And so figuring out that arc and figuring out the way to make it emotionally resonate with readers can be really challenging. And sometimes it's hard to know when you need to be rewriting things and when it's like, no, you don't need to rewrite this. You need to move it 80 pages earlier or 100 pages further. And you need to rewrite the interstitial content to package it in the right way that it works for a reader and the way that you're hoping it'll work. That kind of stuff. I'm good at executing it I'm not always good at seeing how it all works. Yeah. And so that's where you sense that help.

A (31:17)

Yeah, makes sense. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to be right back. Okay, listen, I have a secret to confess. I do in fact, love online shopping. Okay, maybe that wasn't a secret. You might know that, but nowadays it is so easy. With that little purple Shopify button at the end of checkout. Just a single click and all your payment and shipping information are ready to go. And that right there, that ease is why so many businesses use it to make running your business as easy as the checkout process. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US so it's safe to say they know a little something something about business. Maybe you're not the most tech savvy. Well, Shopify's got you with hundreds of ready to go templates to match your brand's style. You can tackle all of those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics, and a lot more. And when it comes to getting the word out, Shopify has built in marketing and email tools to make it easy to find and keep your new customers. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button already? You know, the one that's used by millions of businesses around the world. It's why Shopify has the best conversion checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com the stacks. Go to shopify.com the stacks. Shopify.com/the stacks. How is it September already? I literally have no clue. Hello, it is I, Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks. You know, we're talking about books all the time over here. And if we're not talking about books enough for you, allow me to introduce you to the Stacks Pack on Patreon. And my newsletter, Unstacked Unsubstack. These are places where you can get inside access to the show. Not to mention my non fiction reading guide, which came out at the start of the summer, is only available until September 22nd. And you have to join one of these communities to get it. I'm just throwing that out out there. But you might want to know, what is the Stacks Pack? Well, the Stacks Pack is a community for book lovers. We do book club meetups. We have a private discord. We do our mega reading challenge all year long. It's a place to help you push your reading goals, help you find new recommendations. Plus you get an exclusive bonus episode every month over on Unstacked. That's my newsletter, so that's me writing to you about celebrity gossip, hot takes, book recommendations. I even do a monthly non fiction column and you also get that bonus episode. But even if you don't have a few dollars to spare, over on Unstack, there's a free option just for you. Listen. Making this podcast is a huge team effort and by supporting the Patreon in the substack you allow me to support myself and my amazing team, my assistant, my editor. All of us are able to make a living because of the incredible support we get from you all. So if you're Interested, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to Tracy thomas.substack.com to subscribe to the newsletter and listen. If you don't want to write that down, there's links for both of those in the episode descriptions because that is how we do it around here. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers, if you want to support this independent podcast, if you want to come hang out with me in the discord, go to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to tracythomas.substack.com to subscribe to the newsletter. And you know, see you in the stacks babes. Prepare to transform your beauty sleep with Blissey's revolutionary silk pillowcases. These aren't just luxurious, they're a complete game changer for skin and hair. Unlike cheap satin alternatives Blissey's dermatologist tested silk actually reduces fine lines and eliminates frizz. Each pillowcase is naturally cooling, antibacterial and hypoallergenic. Perfect for sensitive skin. Users report healthier hair and clearer skin in just weeks of switching to blissey. With over 70 stunning colors including new Wicked and Harry Potter lines, there's a Blissey for everyone. It's no wonder they've sold over 3 million pillowcases and were voted best gift of 2024. Because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free plus an additional 30% off when you shop at Blissey.com Wondery that's B L I-S-S-Y.com Wondery and use code Wondery to get an additional 30% off your skin and hair will thank you. We're back. I so normally we do this thing called Ask the Stacks, where someone writes in and they ask for book recommendations. But I didn't want to do that with you because I wanted to be the person to ask the question. So it's my podcast. Sorry, everybody, but everybody, if you want to do Ask the Stacks next time, email Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. so basically, I'm the asker. Um, earlier this year, we did a bonus episode with Emily St. James, who wrote Woodworking. And we were talking. A lot of it was after sort of the women's prize list came out that Chimamanda was on. And we were talking sort of there. Gavin Newsom thing had happened. Like, it was just like a lot of like, ick, trans pop culture stuff was going on. And one of the things that I had asked Emily was I wanted her to give us sort of like a transition, help us start a trans literary canon. And so I'm going to extend this to you. Will you give us like two or three books that you think should be on listeners of the Stacks trans literary canon? And if you say any repeats, I'll just tell you and you can fill in something else.

B (37:03)

Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to. I mean, for me, one that was really important was. It's hard because there's not a ton of stuff by trans writers of color, but there are a few things. But Imogen Benny's Nevada was incredible for me.

A (37:19)

I think that is on. I think that was on the list.

B (37:21)

I think so.

A (37:22)

I can't even remember now, but I think it was okay.

B (37:27)

So if that's on the list, I might do. I mean, I'm gonna go ahead and actually add just all of Tori Peters. So Stag Dance and Detransition Baby. I think both are canon because they're both incredible and Tori is amazing. Yes. And then, I mean, I haven't read it yet, but I kind of want to add the Lilac People.

A (37:52)

Okay, well, that's our book club pick for September, everybody. So we could add it. I'm so excited about it. What do you know? I don't know anything about Milo Todd. What do you know about the author, if anything?

B (38:04)

I mostly just know that Milo Todd is cool as shit. We did an event together for something in Boston. Was it?

A (38:16)

Oh, yes, yes, yes, it was. I saw there's pictures of this. It was like the Boston Book Festival type thing.

B (38:22)

Yes.

A (38:22)

Literary something.

B (38:23)

I never remember what anything was. And I just really. I really enjoyed our conversation. The conversation, which Emily Zhao actually, author of Girlfriends, was also on as well. But that's really all I know about Milo, like, I'm not. I don't know the. More well, but I have been excited about this book, especially because it deals with trans history, which I think we don't have anywhere near enough of anywhere in print.

A (38:45)

Yeah.

B (38:45)

So I just, like, it's one of the books that I'm. I'm super excited about. Oh, my God. And also one more that just. I know it just came out, but. But what we're dealing with is the fact that, like, there is not a robust system for trans people.

A (38:58)

I mean, I feel like that's why I want to build this canon, because I feel like it's sort of like we can get in on the ground floor a little bit. Like, I don't ask every author from every, like, marginalized group to build a canon because I think, like, there is a black literary canon, but I think as far as, like, the trans literary canon goes, it's a little bit smaller because the history. Yeah. Like, so I feel like that's. I think that's why the question is exciting to me is, like, we get to sort of shape it. And by we, I mean you and Emily, and, like, I get to chime in, but, like, that it's happening now.

B (39:33)

So one other that came out. I can't believe this wasn't top of mind, because I've been obsessed with this book, Hot Girls with Balls by Benedict Brown.

A (39:41)

Is it amazing? It just came out.

B (39:44)

I mean, she's brilliant. She's brilliant. And I actually almost had the opportunity to edit her a couple years ago, and I really want to work with her again in the future. So I just. I am thirsty for that opportunity. We're reading together at a reading in a couple of weeks, which is exciting, too. But that book is also amazing. She's brilliant. And I also think it's, like, perfectly timely because it is dealing with trans women in sports at a moment when that's sort of the specific thing that even Gavin Newsom will over on us on. So Hot Girls with Balls for sure. And Torrey Peters, both Troy Peters. I know. Lilac People, even though I haven't read it yet. And we're about to read it.

A (40:26)

We're about to. Wait. Did you read the other Olympians that came out last year? The, like, nonfiction book about.

B (40:34)

I haven't read it yet.

A (40:35)

Trans People.

B (40:35)

It is on my nightstand, though, right now.

A (40:38)

It's so good. It's so good. It's one of my favorite books. Last year, I loved it so much that the beginning of this year, I Started by being like, Michael Waters, will you please come on the podcast? Because I just loved it so much. But you were saying, like, you don't know a ton about trans history. And I obviously didn't know this history, but I'm a huge sports person and I'm obsessed with World War II. So I was like, oh, let me check this book out and see. And I was like, it's so good. So I'm excited to sort of read the Lilac People also in conversation with that because there's sort of the same era, Germany, obviously different, but, like, they're definitely, like in conversation. So I'm excited about that.

B (41:14)

Maybe I should read that now too, and then I can just both bring. Bring both books to the conversation. Michael is amazing. He's a friend too.

A (41:22)

Michael's amazing. I met Michael at the LA Times Book Festival and was like, oh, sorry. I love you so much.

B (41:27)

Yeah, he's a real.

A (41:28)

You know, I just fall in love with people so easily. I just fall in love with like, I don't. You read someone's book and you like it and then you're like, oh, well, I guess we have to be best friends. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

B (41:39)

Well, he's very. He's very lovable. He's very lovable. He's adorable. He's smart, he's kind. He's just. He's great.

A (41:46)

And he's so tall.

B (41:47)

He's so tall. He's so tall. We love tall. Not that we don't love our short kings, but we love a tall. We love all.

A (41:55)

But like, with the Internet, you never know how tall someone's going to be. So like when someone is either short or tall, I always feel like it's like, congratulations, you're the father. It's like, I had no idea this was going to happen to me.

B (42:10)

Can I tell you a fun story about Michael that is not writing related?

A (42:14)

Yes, of course.

B (42:15)

So we were hanging out at a party last December, and I was dating a guy from Ohio. I live in New York. I was dating this guy from Ohio and I. Have you heard about the recent controversy with Laverne Cox where she was. She talked about dating a cop who was maga. He was blonde haired, blue eyed and.

A (42:32)

Yes, yes. Okay, yes.

B (42:34)

So she. And she didn't know that he was maga until well into the relationship. It didn't. It didn't come up. And while I have my own thoughts about that, what I will also say is that it is true that conservative men like trans Women. Because I found myself dating a man who. A few months in, I. He would say a few things, and I was like, wait a second. How did this guy vote? What's the situation? I don't know. I was talking to Michael about this at a party, and Michael was like, do you want me to look it up for you? I can look it up because he's an investigative reporter. And so he looked it up for me. The guy was not maga. He had. He hadn't voted, period. And we. Our relationship did end, but immediately at that party, Yeah, I was. I was like, this ain't gonna work. But the point is, Michael. Michael was like, if you ever need me to look you up a man, I will do it. And I was just like, michael's a real one. He's a real one.

A (43:25)

Okay, before we talk about your books, we have to talk about the most controversial thing that you just said. You are a MAGA person. Do you listen to Ezra Klein?

B (43:35)

Wait, what do you mean if. Wait.

A (43:37)

Because I say maga. I feel like it is maga, but Ezra Klein has been floating MAGA around, and I feel like he has infected the brains of geniuses around us because so many people are saying MAGA now. And I am a hardline maga. I think it's maga.

B (43:56)

I. I have listened to a few Ezra Klein episodes.

A (44:00)

Okay, so you came to this by. On your own. You came to MAGA on your own?

B (44:04)

Yeah, I don't think I've ever met. So this. Okay, so this is the thing. I'm from Ohio, and we have. We speak phonetically, sort of perfectly. Like, if you want to be a newscaster, get someone from Cleveland, Ohio, because we don't really have any kind of accent. But the one thing that we sometimes do do is. Is will be a little bit nasal. And so for me, I. I Maga. I can't say Maga because to me, in my head, it sounds very nasal, and I don't want to sound like, okay, okay, fair. Which is ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

A (44:35)

But it's like MAGA is the worst. So, like, saying it nasally is like. It's Maga, you know, like, it's just yuck. But also, the thing about MAGA is that then you can call the people. Well, this is just mean. But you can call. Be like, maggots, right? Like, that's like the nickname. But maggots don't work.

B (44:52)

That's true. I do want to say maggots. Like there are times. True.

A (44:57)

I do want to say it sometimes Anyways, it's just, this is my like. Like sometimes I'll listen to Ezra Klein, who, you know, I don't. Haven't talked about him publicly on this podcast, but he's not my favorite. But sometimes I will listen. And every time he says maga, then I immediately have to send voice notes to like six of my friends being like, why is he saying maga? Why is he trying to ruin my life? Like, this is why I can't listen to this show. But I think I feel like some people say maga because of him, because he says it all the time and he says it like, so Ezra Kleiny. He'll be like, maga, Maga. And I'm like, Ezra, get a life.

B (45:31)

Anyways, I will just say I've listened to fewer than five episodes of his podcast in my life. In general, I feel like we need to be listening to a little bit less of Ezra Klein.

A (45:43)

I feel the same way. I have, I have. I need to do a whole Ezra Klein. I feel like there are things in the world that I dislike that I sort of talk about casually, like in my stories or like, might come up, like Hamilton, for example. And I feel like I just need to sit down and do an hour long episode on like all of these things that I just like, don't like. But people always ask me follow up questions about because I know people can, like, why don't you like Ezra Klein? I don't like him for a lot of like, legitimate reasons, I think. And also I don't like him because he says maga. I think that's fair. Like, I think I can dislike people for a myriad of reasons.

B (46:20)

Yes, you can.

A (46:22)

But I agree. I think we could do less Ezra Klein.

B (46:25)

Like, he's challenging. I do think he's hot, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to, to.

A (46:31)

I think he can be hot. But now that he knows he's hot, now that he's had this like, glow up, I just, it's, it's ick to me. I just.

B (46:40)

Yeah, yeah, he has the ick. He has the it.

A (46:43)

And then he's not even like one of my professional nemeses or anything. I just like. He's someone that I just like, love to be like, ew about.

B (46:53)

And it's fair. You know, I'm a New Yorker. His wife wrote stupid things about Zoran Mamdani. I just, I'm not. So I'm not. Yeah, it's.

A (47:04)

Yeah. Okay. We're out on him. We're out on him. So okay. So that means you've got to start saying maga, even if you don't like the nasal, because you don't want people to think that you're an Ezra Klein stand. Because that's what I thought.

B (47:14)

You don't want.

A (47:15)

It's like you gotta go. Yeah, exactly.

B (47:21)

That is kind of fun. That's actually kind of.

A (47:22)

I like it. I like it. Lean into it. Okay. We had to do that, people. Sorry.

B (47:27)

That we needed to.

A (47:28)

We needed to get it off our chest. Two books you love, one book you hate.

B (47:33)

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Two books I love are the Bluest Eye by Olive Kittredge, by Elizabeth Strout. One book I hate Catch her in the Rye. I hate catching.

A (47:47)

Oh, me too.

B (47:48)

I hate that book.

A (47:49)

Okay, I'm not sure, but I am sure the first two books you picked were both Oprah Book Club picks. But did she also do Catcher in the Rye, or am I making that up?

B (48:00)

I'm not sure about Catcher in the Rye.

A (48:02)

I know she did the other two, but she did.

B (48:05)

She. She. Well, she's done Elizabeth Stroud a couple times.

A (48:08)

She did all of Kittredge, and she started with Bluest Eye. That was her first ever book club hit.

B (48:12)

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure about. I mean, I just know Catcher in the Rye from high school, and it's like that book that everyone knows that.

A (48:19)

I think it was not an Oprah pick. I know. I know. I mean, I know it from. I know it from that, too. I hate it. I didn't read it till after high school, and I. I think I. It was too late for me to read that book. I was like, 22, and I was like, no, bitch, I don't. This boy. No, thank you.

B (48:33)

He needs to get his butt whooped is what he needs.

A (48:35)

Yeah. What kind of reader are you, like? Do you read more multiple books at once? Do you, like, deep dive into things? Do you like to read all sorts of stuff? Are there genres that you love or hate? Like, what is. Who are you as a reader?

B (48:51)

So that is a good question. I used to read multiple books at once, and now I. What? It's similar to how I work as a writer, where I have typically one book that I'm really keyed in on, and then I have others that are floating around that I may have started, but, like, this one has sort of merged, and so that's the one I'm focused on. So I feel like I read one book at a time, even though I'm always reading multiple Things. Yeah, I most. I will say I'm mostly when it comes to fictional literary reader, but I do like myself some romance.

A (49:22)

Okay.

B (49:23)

And the occasional. The occasional, like. Well, I like more literary thriller, I would say, than actual thriller. But I would say that I tend to say stick to the more literary work. I don't know why. It just tends to be.

A (49:38)

Do you read nonfiction?

B (49:41)

Yes, but. And with nonfiction, I'm more expansive in what I will read, but I don't read as much of it. But I love an essay collection. I love a memoir. I do like a celebrity memoir. Those I usually listen to, though I don't read them. I do listen. Yeah.

A (49:58)

I never. I'll never read a celebrity memoir again. Once I got into audiobooks, I was like, I'll never take my precious actual page time for Will Smith, you know.

B (50:09)

Correct.

A (50:10)

Like, happy to give you 12 hours of listening. Cannot give you 12 minutes of reading. Cannot give you 12 seconds.

B (50:16)

Yeah, they're great for a long drive. They're great for walking your dog. And I do like. Like, some, I think are like, genuinely really good books or whatever.

A (50:26)

Do you have any favorites?

B (50:27)

Yeah, my favorite celebrity memoir is Kerry Washington's Thicker Than Water. I love. I love.

A (50:32)

I never read that one.

B (50:34)

I think it's. I think it's spectacular, I think. And I could tell as I was listening to it, I was like, I think she wrote this herself. I don't think she used a ghostwriter. And then she confirmed it in a Vogue interview that she wrote it herself. And there was something about the craft and the way that she, like, did. You know, most celebrity memoirs just move in a linear, totally linear way chronologically, and she doesn't do that. She does a lot. She did a lot of stuff in that book with the narrative that, like I did in my novel, for example. And so I was like, this feels like a writer's mind at work, not a ghostwriter who's writing it for someone else. Yeah, it's really good.

A (51:08)

I love that. What's the last great book you read?

B (51:13)

I really, really loved Home Seeking by Carissa Chen, which came out in January of this year. Chris is a friend of mine from Sarah Lawrence. We've known each other for a long time, but I just loved the intricacy of that love story. I loved the fact that it spanned two continents and 40 years. Like, the ambition of that narrative was amazing. And I thought she delivered it really beautifully. So that's one. If I can just give one more. I also really loved that I read recently the novel Skin And Bones by Renee Watson, which I just think she's such a beautiful writer. And that book. More people should have. Should have heard about that book and should have been talking about that book because I think it's incredible, and it deals with fatphobia and just a way that I think very few literary books do. So that is really a spectacular book as well. Okay.

A (52:03)

I love that. Okay, how about. What are you reading right now?

B (52:09)

So right now, listen, I just started Sula, which I've never read before, so.

A (52:16)

Okay.

B (52:16)

Yeah. So that's really exciting. I still. There's still Toni Morrison that I haven't read, and that's one of them. So that's kind of my focus right now. I'm reading that. I think I'm reading it in part because I think it will help me with my future project. But, you know, anytime I read Toni Morrison, it feels like everything kind of shuts down. And I just get to hear her voice as I'm reading, and it's like the best thing ever. So I try not to rush through it, and I try not to read. Like, this is why I space out reading her works. It's a comfort to me.

A (52:44)

Which other ones do you still have to read?

B (52:46)

I still have to read Song of Solomon, and I still have to read Tar Baby. I think I've read everything else.

A (52:52)

Oh, okay.

B (52:52)

Interesting. I think I've read everything. I've read all of her fiction, but I have not read, for example, the collection of her speeches. I haven't read that. I did read Respites of Teeth, which is really a short story, but so there's still stuff to read. Yeah.

A (53:08)

Sula and Song of Solomon are two. Are my two favorite. I would say they're really different. I love Sula. Sula is my favorite. I haven't read them all either. I still have three, but I have Paradise, Home, and Love. Those are the three I have left of the novels.

B (53:26)

I also have Jazz. I haven't read Jazz yet.

A (53:29)

Oh, we did that last year for book club. We've done all the ones you haven't read for book club.

B (53:35)

Oh, my gosh.

A (53:36)

So they're all. They're all there for you, and they're really fun. Like, they're really good ones. Okay. What is a book that you love to recommend to other people?

B (53:46)

I love to recommend the novel Ghana Must Go by Tai Selassie. It came out in 2013. I think it was a New York Times bestseller, But I also felt like it was published sort of quietly, but I wasn't in the industry so much then. But it's a beautiful, beautiful novel. It's the only novel that she's written. And her writing, her. Her sentence level writing will be reminiscent of Arundhati Roy's, the God of small things.

A (54:14)

Okay.

B (54:15)

So if you love that sort of lyrical, rhythmic, like sort of complex sentences kind of writing, I think you'll. You'll love it. It's a story of four siblings dealing with Greece and all of their own personal things coming together around the death of their father. It's, I just think, an incredible book.

A (54:32)

I'm reading my first Arundhati Roy right now. I'm listening to Mother Mary Comes To Me, her new. Her new memoir. I wasn't going to read it because I didn't think that I cared. And then an author that I love, who I won't say who, was like, it's amazing. And then someone else text me about it, and they were like, well, I just love her editor. And I said, well, who's her editor? And they said, kathy Belden. And I said, what? Kathy Belden? Who's Kia say? And Jesmyn's like, you know, she's my favorite. She's my favorite. And I was like, fuck it. And then it was on the Kirkus list, and I was like, you know what? I'm starting it. So I started it yesterday, and I'm into it. It's very beautifully written. The writing is very, like, beautiful. I have been extremely out on memoir this year, so I'm struggling with it. I just, like, I usually love memoir. I have DNF'd at least. I have not finished, like, at least 10 memoirs this year. I think I've only finished, like, five, and two of them were celebrity memoirs.

B (55:32)

Well, you know, your. Your tastes go through shifts and the times.

A (55:35)

Yeah.

B (55:36)

That's what you are craving a lot of the time.

A (55:38)

Yeah.

B (55:38)

You know, she's incredible. So I will read it, but I'm not like. I like. When her second novel was announced, I, like, went apeshit. I am excited about this memoir and I will get to it, but it's like an I will get to it kind of thing.

A (55:52)

Yeah, yeah. I'm waiting because people that I love and trust are like, it's amazing. So I'm. I'm giving it, like, more space than I would another memoir. And I'm liking it, but I'm not, like. I'm just, like, waiting. I'm trying not to be my normal judgy self. Normally I would just like, I hate memoir. I'm not reading it. So I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to be nice. It's really hard for me. What's the last really good book that somebody else recommended to you?

B (56:18)

Fish Tales by Nettie Jones.

A (56:20)

You liked it?

B (56:21)

Yeah.

A (56:22)

Oh, Deesha, of course. The best.

B (56:25)

I was like, oh, my God. And then I'd forgotten about it and then she just like, handed it to me and I was like, oh, right. And so, yeah, yeah.

A (56:32)

What's your ideal reading setup? Location, time of day, beverages, snacks, temperature, props, costumes, talk about it.

B (56:42)

Any time of day is fine for reading. I like to be in, like a really comfortable chair or my couch, like, either one. I don't like to be in bed. I like to be in a couch or chair. So I'm sitting a little bit more upright. And I will have a beverage. I will always have a glass of ice cold water, like super, super ice cold. And then I will either have a glass of wine or a coffee or. Or a latte, depending on when during the day it is. And I do need snacks around. My favorite for reading is popcorn.

A (57:11)

Just a plain popcorn with like a salt or do you like a flavored popcorn?

B (57:16)

Either cheese popcorn or very buttered or kettle any. I guess. Yeah, all the flavors are good. The other thing I like almonds. Like so, like honey roasted almonds or whatever those. If those are around, those are the two things that I will just like constantly put in my mouth.

A (57:32)

I love. You passed the test. I love this. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

B (57:37)

I have many in so in New York, my favorite bookstore is probably Strand. I just love how big it is and how you can buy new things and used things. There's a bookstore in a small town called Kent, Connecticut called House of Books that I really love. And whenever I visit my friends who live there, whenever I visit, I always go to that bookstore. There's a bookstore in Cleveland Heights that I grew up going to a tiny independent bookstore next to a diner that I loved that I still love. And it's called Max Paper Max Backs or Max Paperback Max Backs Books, I think. And it's this tiny hole in the wall bookstore with used books and new books. And it's been around for decades. And it used to be, you know, transphobia side. It's where I used to buy the Harry Potters. I would go there at midnight when Harry Potter was being published when I was a kid, and I would buy the Harry Potters there. So I love that place.

A (58:31)

What is your relationship now to the Harry Potters?

B (58:35)

I love them. I cannot read them and I certainly cannot stand their author, but I recognize that it's complicated. There's a lot of people in the Harry Potter world who disavowed her. And I also think there's maybe mental some stuff going on with her that like, isn't completely intentional. I just. But I think the whole thing is sad. So I can't read them. Like, if I had a child I don't plan on having, I don't expect that I'll have a kid, but if I had a kid, I don't know that I would expose them to it, which in the past I would have felt like that was fine to do.

A (59:12)

Yeah. Yeah, totally. What's the last book that made you laugh?

B (59:19)

This might sound weird, but I recently listened to the Britney Spears memoir and that there were some funny moments.

A (59:28)

I love that one. What's the last book that made you cry?

B (59:33)

Also the Britney Spears memoir.

A (59:35)

Oh, okay. Britney, Double trouble. What's the last book where you felt like you learned a lot?

B (59:43)

So I haven't finished it yet, but I already feel like I'm learning. I've also started reading Black Moses by Caleb Gale.

A (59:49)

Oh, yeah.

B (59:50)

And I. I'm also reading it a little bit for research purposes because I don't know a lot of, like, fact about like, these all black towns and any of that. So that book is teaching me a lot. And it's really good. The writing is really good. That's. I highly recommend that book.

A (60:11)

I really love Caleb. He's awesome. Okay, we're almost out of time, so I'm going to ask you just two more questions. One is, is there any book that you are embarrassed that you still have never read?

B (60:23)

Lolita.

A (60:25)

Okay. We did that this year for book club. So if you read it, you can listen to us talk about it. I'd never read it until this year. Last one. If you could require the current President of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

B (60:39)

Something about learning his ABCs? No, like, like a picture book. Like, he needs it broken down. Maybe like the Berenstain Bears.

A (60:48)

Okay.

B (60:49)

Like, I don't. I don't expect him to be able to take. Take in anything more complex. But we, we've got to get the comprehension up.

A (60:57)

Yes. We've got to do what your mother said. Someone has to read to him ten times a day until he can read.

B (61:04)

Yes, yes, yes. Then we'll deal with something more complex.

A (61:08)

Then we'll do more. Okay, everybody. This has been a conversation with the wonderful Den Michelle Norris. Den will be back on September 24th to read our book Club pick with us. It is the Lilac People by Milo Todd. It is historical fiction about trans people in the lead up to and during World War II in Nazi Germany. I can't wait to read it. I can't wait for you to come back and talk to us about it. Den, you are amazing people. Go get when the harvest comes and both and thank you. Thank you and everyone else. We will see you in the Stacks. All right y', all, thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Den Michelle Norris for joining the show. Den will be back on Wednesday, September 24th for the Stacks Book Club Conversation around the Lilac People by Milo Todd. If you love the show, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and you can subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you are subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on instagram threads and TikTok and check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Frielo. Our graphic Designer is Robin McRite and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas SA.