Podcast Summary: The Stacks Book Club – "The Lilac People" by Milo Todd

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Denne Michele Norris (author, editor)
Episode: 391
Date: September 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of The Stacks Book Club features host Traci Thomas in conversation with returning guest Denne Michele Norris. Together, they discuss Milo Todd’s historical novel, "The Lilac People," which focuses on the experiences of trans characters in post-World War II Germany. The book follows Bertie, a trans man, and his partner Sophie as they navigate survival following the Holocaust, complicated further by the arrival of another trans survivor, Carl. The discussion covers the book's historical context, the nuances of queer and trans representation, authorial choices, evolving language, relevance to today's politics, and both hosts’ critical and emotional reactions to the novel.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Challenges of Historical Fiction

[06:42–08:20, Denne Michele Norris]

• Denne praises the immersive writing and how rare it is to see trans stories set in this era.
• The book feels "prescient in an almost creepy way," highlighting parallels between historical and contemporary anti-trans rhetoric.
• Traci echoes general positivity but notes her pre-existing familiarity with Holocaust history made some revelations less impactful for her; still, she appreciated the dramatization of erased queer stories.

2. Didacticism vs. Subtlety in Activist Fiction

[11:01–14:36]

• Traci observes the book at times feels "heavy-handed" in drawing ties between Nazi Germany and present-day anti-trans legislation.
• Denne argues heavy-handedness is sometimes earned: "If we have been more subtle in the past, it has not worked, it has not gotten us where we need it to be."
• They consider audience—those most in need of these lessons might never read such a book, but for others, it’s a crucial connection.

Notable Quote [13:44, Traci Thomas]:

"Those people aren't going to read it… I don't need Milo Todd be heavy handed with me. I need Milo Todd to be heavy handed with Old Boy over there on Fox News."

3. Loss and Erasure – Dramatizing Historical Silences

[18:17–19:52, Traci Thomas]

• The hosts discuss the burning of archives by the Nazis—the disappearance of trans and queer documentation—and the importance of showing not just that things were lost, but exactly what was erased.
• They appreciate Todd’s author's note clarifying period-accurate language and addressing the danger of back-projecting modern labels.

4. Evolving Language & Historical Authenticity

[19:52–21:42, Denne Michele Norris]

• Both commend Todd’s nuanced handling of “inverts” and “transvestite” as period terms, maintaining authenticity while cautioning present-day readers.
• Denne: "It's so important to understand the thinking and the practices around the language that was used at the time… our language will also continue to change and evolve."
• Traci brings up contemporary debates about language in classic literature and evolving norms.

5. Plot Structure and Historical Context

[23:12–30:20, Traci Thomas]

• Traci recaps plot: Bertie and Sophie, hiding on a farm, encounter Carl, a trans man and recent concentration camp survivor.
• Insights into the real history: the existence of trans identities and gender confirmation surgeries in pre-Nazi Germany, as well as the "transvestite cards" issued for legal protections.
• Discussion about the social position of trans people versus homosexuals in Weimar and Nazi-era Germany—trans individuals sometimes "passed" or were permitted to blend in more than gays and lesbians.

6. Trauma, Survival, and the 'Big Reveal'

[37:10–41:49]

• The emotional centerpiece: Carl’s harrowing monologue recounting his years in Dachau, abuse, and survival.
• Mixed reactions: Denne found it necessary but recognized its intensity and potential heavy-handedness. Traci wonders if spreading the trauma across the narrative would have diluted or strengthened its impact.
• Recognition that specificity of trauma for trans and queer prisoners in camps is often erased from history.

Notable Quote [39:21, Denne Michele Norris]:

"It's also a moment of catharsis for the reader and for the characters and perhaps most importantly, for Carl to take this load that he's been carrying and give it to Sophie and to Bertie and to give it to the reader. And perhaps the most important thing I was thinking as I, as I was moving through the rest of the book is that the reader needs to carry some of that load."

7. Flawed Characters and Morality in Crisis

[47:58–54:08]

• Examines Bertie’s guilt over saving his own records but not those of the community during the Nazi raid.
• Both hosts argue more moral ambiguity would have deepened the novel, especially as survival often necessitates fraught decisions.
• They wish secondary characters, especially Sophie, had been allowed more flaws.

Notable Quote [52:40, Traci Thomas]:

"I almost wish that Bertie had actually done something that was, like, purposefully harmful because I felt like this book could have been richer if it had a little bit more, like, pull. Morally right."

8. Central Messages on Visibility and Vulnerability

[54:47–55:44]

• The critical takeaway: "Visibility without protection only leads to violence."
• The book ties historical violence to contemporary debates on visibility, rights, and safety.

Notable Quote [54:47, Traci Thomas]:

"Visibility without protection only leads to violence… for me, reading this book right now in the United States, I think that was really like, highlight, highlight, highlight lesson of the book."

9. Humanizing Nazis and the Problem of 'Friendly Villains'

[60:46–64:44]

• The ending includes an encounter with a “friendly Nazi” on the boat to America; neither host thinks this adds much, with Den saying, "I've had so many narratives that have humanized Nazis that like, I. That's not a lesson that I need to learn."
• Discussion on how the American characters, particularly the liberators, serve as more nuanced antagonists.

10. The Ending: Hope or Escapism?

[66:44–69:59]

• The protagonists survive and reach America, which feels emotionally satisfying but perhaps less realistic.
• Both hosts note a tension in current trans literature: desire for happy endings versus honest depiction of historical (and ongoing) suffering.
• Traci theorizes a darker, tragic ending for Carl may have been more dramatically powerful.

Memorable Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 13:44 | Traci Thomas | "Those people aren't going to read it… I don't need Milo Todd be heavy handed with me. I need Milo Todd to be heavy handed with Old Boy over there on Fox News." | | 19:52 | Traci Thomas | "These were the files and the stories of people in the LGBTQ community… But pretty much none of those mention what was actually being burned." | | 21:36 | Denne M. Norris | "It's so important to understand the thinking and the practices around the language that was used at the time… our language will also continue to change and evolve." | | 39:21 | Denne M. Norris | "The reader needs to carry some of that load." | | 52:40 | Traci Thomas | "I almost wish that Bertie had actually done something that was, like, purposefully harmful because I felt like this book could have been richer if it had a little bit more, like, pull. Morally right." | | 54:47 | Traci Thomas | "Visibility without protection only leads to violence... for me, reading this book right now in the United States, I think that was really like, highlight, highlight, highlight lesson of the book." | | 63:16 | Denne M. Norris | "I've had so many narratives that have humanized Nazis that like, I. That's not a lesson that I need to learn." |

Notable Segment Timestamps

• Main Plot & Characters Summary – [04:03–05:26]
• On Authentic Historical Language – [19:52–21:42]
• Carl’s Trauma Monologue – [37:10–41:49]
• Bertie’s Moral Dilemma – [47:58–54:08]
• Discussion on Visibility & Violence – [54:47–55:44]
• Friendly Nazi & Humanization – [60:46–64:44]
• Endings & Trans Narrative Representation – [66:44–69:59]
• Book Cover & Title Opinions – [70:15–73:21]

The Hosts’ Final Reflections

• Denne: Values the essential act of dramatizing queer and trans histories, lauds the book’s prose and character focus, and finds even heavy-handed storytelling necessary in the current climate.
• Traci: Appreciates the fictional exploration of a historically thinly documented topic but would have preferred greater character flaw and ambiguity. She enjoys the author's note and wishes for ongoing expansion of trans narratives—beyond survival, to full moral complexity.

Book Club Logistics

• Next Month’s Pick: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein (to be discussed October 29)
• Encouragement for listeners to weigh in on the cover and connect via Instagram.

Tone & Language

The episode is lively, candid, and passionate, mixing close reading with personal reactions and thoughtful critique. Traci and Denne blend humor, frankness, and a clear commitment to both literary rigor and social justice in their analysis.

This summary offers a comprehensive and timestamped map for new listeners or readers, capturing analytic depth and emotional energy from the hosts while parsing the literary, historical, and contemporary significance of The Lilac People.