The Stacks, Ep. 392

The Ebbs and Flows of Friendship with Angela Flournoy

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Angela Flournoy
Date: October 1, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features Traci Thomas in conversation with award-winning novelist Angela Flournoy, whose new book The Wilderness explores two decades in the friendship of five Black women. The discussion moves through Angela’s lifelong relationship to books, her writerly process, the ambitions and structure behind The Wilderness, and broader thoughts on the evolution of literary fiction, Black women’s communities, and the enduring impact of friendship. The episode also touches on book recommendations, writerly inspiration, and what both host and guest seek—and avoid—in fiction.

Key Topics, Insights, and Discussion Points

1. Angela’s Literary Roots and Approach to Writing

• Early Love for Books: Angela grew up in LA County, reading avidly from childhood and wanting to write from age six.
• Analyzing Story Structure:

  “Since I was very small, like reading C.S. Lewis, like Chronicles of Narnia, I’ve been like, how do these things work? That is just how my brain has always kind of functioned.” (04:07, AF)

• Reading as a Writer vs. Reader: She maintains reading for pleasure as her primary mode, then reflects technically as a writer only once she’s immersed.

  “I always read for pleasure first… It’s like another level of enjoyment when I’m like, ‘Oh my god, she actually did pull it off!’” (05:10, AF)

2. Writing Process & Influences

• Solution-Oriented Rereading: She revisits writers like Edward P. Jones and Toni Morrison for technical challenges (e.g., handling time).
• Trends Among Writers: Angela often looks to classics or lesser-known works for inspiration, eschewing trends in mainstream literary fiction.
• Self-Defensive Literary Fiction:

  “There’s a sort of self defensive fiction… a literary fiction that wants to try to preempt every criticism… they’re trying to prove that they have mastered the form… when it’s, like, ain’t nobody mastered the form.” (11:01, AF)

3. Ambitions and Structure of “The Wilderness”

• Generational & Social Ambition: Angela wanted The Wilderness to capture the group dynamic, generational concerns, and the influence of social media on Black millennial women.

  “This book had to feel like what it felt like to be part of a group, to be a Black millennial woman in the last 20 years…” (13:38, AF)

• Nonlinear Time & Structure: The novel’s time-jumping reflects our tech-mediated, nonlinear sense of memory and history.

• Balancing Accessibility and Depth:

  “I want readers to feel like, wow, she did a big one, she was having fun—even though, like, the subject matter is not always good.” (12:17, AF)

4. What Makes Literary Fiction Engaging

• Pleasure & Intimacy: Traci praises The Wilderness for letting the reader into the characters’ inner lives, finding vibrancy and “invitation” often missing in serious literary fiction.
• Avoiding Didacticism:

  “It’s not what the form is for… the magic is like, I give you something, and then your brain does the rest.” (17:03, AF)

• Dialog as Essential: The pair agree that compelling, authentic dialogue creates connection and energy within literary works.

  “[If] no one talks, it feels like the writer is being stingy… you could just get this brain of mine, and you can't get any voices.” (18:10, AF)

5. Writing About Black Women’s Friendship

• Friendship as Subject: Angela describes The Wilderness as inspired by the “ebbs and flows” of multiple friend groups in her life, blending her Delta Sigma Theta sorority sisters, college friends, and family.

  “I love to accept the ebbs and flows of friendships… and keep them all.” (23:42, AF)

• Conflict and Depth: Real friendship, especially among Black women, requires both surface connection and—sometimes—difficult conflict to achieve depth.

  “In order to go deeper, sometimes there has to be some kind of confrontation… conflict is not abuse.” (28:23, AF)

6. Sourcing Book Inspiration & Recommendations

• Book Recs for Self-Discovery (31:12):
  • Second Life by Amanda Hess (Traci)
  • How We Fight for Our Lives by Saeed Jones (Traci)
  • The Mothers by Brit Bennett (Traci)
  • The Wilderness by Angela Flournoy (34:03, Angela)
  • The Girls Who Grew Big by Leila Motley (34:37, Angela)
  • The Street by Ann Petry (34:57, Angela)

7. Literary Likes, Dislikes, and Process

• Books Angela Loves (37:46):
  • We the Animals by Justin Torres
  • On Beauty by Zadie Smith
• Book She Hates:
  • Freedom by Jonathan Franzen

    “A book that I threw across the room is Freedom by Jonathan Franzen.” (38:45, AF)

• On Book Length: Both prefer economy, but can enjoy “chunkers” if justified. Under 300 pages is ideal in fiction.
• Reading Habits: Angela will read “anywhere, anytime, anyplace”—park, train, home, etc.

8. Honest Literary Criticism

• Valuing Constructive Criticism: Angela and Traci agree fair, critical discussion (not just raves) benefits books and readers, so long as the assessment matches the book’s goals.

  “If you’re speaking a different language than the book to talk about the book, then it’s like, this is about you. This is not about the book.” (48:06, AF)

9. Angela’s Go-To Recommendations & Literary Canon

• The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolaño
• Season of Migration to the North by Tayeb Salih
• All Aunt Hagar’s Children and The Known World by Edward P. Jones

10. Rapid-Fire/Literary Lightning Round (52:40–55:44)

• Last book purchased: The Girls Who Grew Big (Leila Motley) (52:40)
• Last book that made her laugh: Anna Karenina (52:47)
• Last book that made her cry: The Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion (53:50)
• Last book that made her angry: A Burning by Megha Majumdar (53:59)
• Last book she learned from: Kindred Creation by Ida Miriam Davis (54:10)
• Book she’s embarrassed not to have finished: Moby Dick (54:54)
• Problematic favorite: The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen (55:28)
• Favorite childhood books: Anne Rice’s early vampire novels (55:48)
• One book she’d assign in high school: The Known World by Edward P. Jones (56:26)
• One book for the President: “A book of spells” (humorously suggested) (57:05)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On striving for authenticity in fiction:

  “Ain’t nobody mastered the form… you can just keep writing these books because there’s different things to try.” (11:05, AF)

• On Black women’s literary friendships:

  “I was just really excited about it. I think one of the most exciting things about Insecure towards the end is the beef. There’s real beef. And I feel like in order to… go deeper, sometimes there has to be some kind of confrontation.” (28:02, AF)

• On her approach to revision and standards:

  “If it’s not good, it’s not going in… I did feel that it needed to be a little bit of a kitchen sink book, but it needed to have everything because I wanted it to be generational.” (25:13, AF)

• On intentionality in matching content and structure:

  “You have to match the content to the context.” (15:19, TT paraphrasing Clavis Natera)

• Traci on the joy of the reading experience:

  “I just want this great ride with this great book. When you start making it that I gotta figure out… I don’t want that.” (09:45, TT)

• Angela’s humorous reticence about librarian tendencies:

  “I don’t think Monique is… Monique is loud. She was a loud librarian.” (21:49, AF)

Timeline of Highlights

• 00:45–03:25: Introduction, Angela’s initial thoughts on writing The Wilderness
• 03:44–05:02: Angela’s early reading life and literary self-awareness
• 05:29–07:02: Transition from reading for pleasure to reading as a writer
• 08:25–10:57: Trends in writing and the challenges of “serious” literary fiction
• 12:31–13:38: Angela’s ambitions for The Wilderness and its structure
• 16:42–17:23: Discussion of matching content/context and resisting didacticism
• 18:10–19:40: Importance of dialogue and scenes in fiction
• 22:50–24:31: Angela’s friendship groups and the personal inspiration for the novel
• 25:09–26:49: Craft, meticulousness, and maintaining high standards in writing
• 27:37–29:14: Black women’s friendship legacies in fiction and TV
• 31:12–34:47: Book recommendations for self-discovery and motherhood
• 37:46–39:54: Angela’s literary loves and pet hates (Freedom by Franzen)
• 41:05–46:10: Book length, chunkers, and memorable long reads
• 47:12–48:28: How Angela chooses what to read; the value of criticism
• 52:40–56:53: Lightning round of literary favorites and habits

Conclusion

This rich, wide-ranging conversation showcases Angela Flournoy’s deep commitment to authentic, ambitious fiction, her desire to capture the complexity of Black women’s friendships, and her insistence that pleasure, intimacy, and experimentation can coexist in serious literature. She and Traci Thomas articulate a vision of fiction that is both generous to its readers and unafraid to demand something new—from themselves, their peers, and the literary world.

The Wilderness stands as a testament to the generational ties, confrontations, joys, and vulnerabilities of friendship, making it an essential read both for fans of literary fiction and those craving vibrant, honest explorations of Black womanhood.

Resources and Further Recommendations

• Angela Flournoy: [The Wilderness (2025), The Turner House]
• Other Authors Mentioned:
  • Toni Morrison
  • Edward P. Jones
  • Zadie Smith
  • Amanda Hess
  • Saeed Jones
  • Brit Bennett
  • Leila Motley
  • Ann Petry
  • Roberto Bolaño
  • Tayeb Salih
  • Marlon James

Next up on The Stacks: Angela will return on October 29th for the Stacks Book Club discussion of Frankenstein by Mary Shelley.

For more book lists, episode links, and show notes, visit thestackspodcast.com

“I want readers to feel like, wow, she did a big one, she was having fun—even though… the subject matter is not always good, she was having fun trying to achieve these things.”
—Angela Flournoy (12:17)