Angela Flournoy (3:25)

So happy to be here.

Tracy Thomas (3:26)

I'm so happy to have you. Okay, we're gonna start with. Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? Where did you come from? And what is your sort of. What was your relationship to books like before you became a person who writes them?

Angela Flournoy (3:44)

I am from la LA County, Louisiana proper. All of the parts of it I am. I've always been a reader. I was an early reader. And so books have always been, like, a big thing in my life. And I have known that I wanted to write since I was, like, 6 years old. So there's not a lot of time between me becoming literate and me wanting to be a writer. It's like three years maybe. So I've always thought about books both just, like, the pleasure of them, but how they work. Since I was very small, like reading C.S. lewis, like Chronicles of Narnia, I've been like, how do these things work? That is just how my brain has always kind of functioned.

Tracy Thomas (4:27)

Okay, so when you're six and you're reading Lion, Witch in the Wardrobe, what are you thinking of? Like, this is how this works. Because I didn't start thinking about how books worked until, like, yesterday. So I'm curious, like, as a child, how you were thinking about.

Angela Flournoy (4:42)

Well, I was thinking about, like, why do we see certain kids at certain time, but why do we. Why are some, like, things held from us until, like, the next book or the next book in the series? I just had a lot of questions about, like, why was I getting the story when I was getting the story?

Tracy Thomas (5:02)

Oh, my God. Okay. I'm obsessed with. I want to spend the next hour on just this one thing. Okay, so follow up question. As you get older, as you start becoming, like, a writer, a professional writer, you're an adult, You're. Or you're thinking about it, you're working towards this goal of becoming a published author. As you're reading other books. Are you. Can you enjoy a book even if you don't like how it works?

Angela Flournoy (5:29)

I mean, if I don't like how it works, I'm probably not enjoying it, but. But I. I do believe in, like, being a fan of, like, a book, like, of reading and literature first. I remember. I don't know when this was, but my very good friend Justin Torres was, like, the problem with a lot of people in MFA programs. We were in an MFA program when he said this, so it must have been like, 2009 or 2010. And he was like, is that they don't read for pleasure anymore. They are just reading like a writer. And I always read for pleasure first. It's usually like, I am deep into a book, and then I'm like, wow, this pov. Like, wow, she's doing it. Or there's something that I feel like you're not going to be able to pull off. I'm like, oh, well, I'm having fun. We're going to get to the point where you don't pull it off. But until then, like, I'm vibing, so I'm going to keep reading, reading. And then I'm. It's like another level of enjoyment when I'm like, oh, my God, she actually did pull it off. Like, wow, she did it.

Tracy Thomas (6:26)

Are you thinking as you're reading, this is what I would do? No, no. You're always just thinking, like, this is where we are.

Angela Flournoy (6:34)

They want to do. Are they going to be able to do it?

Tracy Thomas (6:37)

Okay. Okay. So that's sort of how I read I feel. I mean, I'm not a writer, so I'm never thinking this is what I would do ever. Do you go back and reread things with, like, more of a writerly brain? If you're trying, like, if you're working on something like, oh, this author did a great job of this kind of point of view. Like, I want to go back and read this and kind of, like, figure it out from a writer standpoint.

Angela Flournoy (7:02)

Yes. So often I'll be like, ugh, I have a challenge. I need to cover, like, a lot of Time really quickly, for instance, and I will think of a book I love, you know, probably written by Edward P. Jones or Toni Morrison or, you know, there's. I have my favorites. And so they'll be. I'll be like, oh, let me just read like 50 pages really quickly just to be reminded. Like, how do you handle time on a basic level? Because I think sometimes it's like the micro things that I will feel like, oh, I forgot how to do this, or I just need to be reminded of, like a way to do it. Not like I do it exactly like them, but. Yeah. So I often will think of somebody or I'll ask, I'll phone a friend. You know, I'll be like, what are some books that do this very well? I think that's like one of the best things that are in writers group chats that maybe the world does not see. People put it on, you know, threads or Instagram sometimes too. They ask like, they ask the world. Yeah. But I find that the books that writers have top of mind are not necessarily all books that came out in the last, like five years.

Tracy Thomas (8:07)

Right.

Angela Flournoy (8:08)

And I find that to be very useful because everybody is, like, susceptible to trends and writers are no different. So it might be a book in the last two years that was put out that does POV very well, but everybody is thinking about the way that that book does POV versus a book that came out 100 years ago that does POV very well.

Tracy Thomas (8:25)

Right. Are there any trends in the writer world right now that you're particularly fond of and any that you're particularly annoyed by?

Angela Flournoy (8:35)

No, I, I mostly read to blurb and I'm in a very good position where most of the people I'm blurbing are people that I've taught before, etc, that know what they're doing. So I'm not. And even if I'm ultimately like, oh, man, that draft I saw 10 years ago was better than this one. I know that they, like, have the toolkit. So I'm not, I'm not reading a lot of stuff that is just. That is contemporary just because everybody else is reading it. And so I don't know what those trends are. And also, most people are just like, not reading literary fiction.

Tracy Thomas (9:15)

Well, most people here with me are. Most of my listeners are not me. I, I'm trying not to read any literary fiction. That's not true either.

Angela Flournoy (9:25)

I've heard this about you.

Tracy Thomas (9:26)

I, I do read fiction. Here's the thing. I and I, we talked about this in Mississippi about hard books, because I Was like, angela, is your book gonna be too hard for me? Am I not gonna like it? I just want to read something that is smart but also is. Feels. Feels easy. I want the author to take me somewhere that I want to go. I want to come with you, but I don't want to feel like I'm having to work hard you to make it like, you know, I want to be flying first class, right? Like, I just want this great ride with this great book when you start making it that I gotta figure out. And it's like slow and heavy and I'm trudging through it. I don't want that. That's not how I like my reading life to be. So I feel like sometimes in literary fiction there's like this seriousness, there's a lack of like joy or excitement in the book. And I feel like what I really like about the wilderness is I can tell that you have a very intimate relationship with these women. Like that I am being let inside to these women. And even when they do stuff where I'm like tesserae, babe, like, stop immediately. I like her. I want her to stop. Not because I'm annoyed by her, but because you love her and I now love her. And so like, I think a lot of literary fiction misses that piece of it where it's like, I'm happy to go with you wherever you want to go, but like, can we have a nice time even when it sucks? Do you know what I'm saying?

Angela Flournoy (10:57)

Yes, I think, I mean, I think that there's a lot of reasons for that and some of it I wonder if you feel that way about, you know, literary fiction where people even really calling, differentiating. But you know, books that have endured from like the 70s, right, or the 60s, I think. Not that this is not going to be where Angela talks, you know, shit about a bunch of MFA programs. But I do think, and people have written about this, I'm not the first one that they're. I think Brandon Taylor has like a subset post about this that I've read before. But this idea of like a sort of self defensive fiction, right? Like a fiction, a literary fiction that wants to try to preempt every criticism, like every bit of feedback. They're trying to get ahead of it, right? And they're also trying to prove that they have mastered the form when it's like, ain't nobody mastered the form. Like that's not, that's not how the form works because it's, you know, elastic and it's expansive. So that's the beauty of you can just keep writing these books because there's different things to try. But I think that sometimes that can be. It feels like work because it's like homework. Right. Somebody's doing this because they want to get a gold star versus they have a set of interests. One of them could be to entertain the reader. Absolutely, that's one of them. But I have all these other esthetic interests that in the pursuit of them. Yeah. I want readers to feel like, wow, she was. She did a big one. She was having fun. Even though, like, the subject matter is not always good, she was having fun trying to achieve these things.

Tracy Thomas (12:31)

What other interests do you have besides entertaining the reader?

Angela Flournoy (12:37)

Well, you know, the more you read, the more your taste starts to, like, outpace your ability. So I. With the Wilderness, I had an interest in writing about what it feels like to be a part of a group, which you would say I already did in the Turner House, but what it feels like to be a part of, like, a group that has history, but it's not as, like, big as, like, a family's, you know, lineage and what it feels like to be alive right now. Right. And you have had been in your 20s when I was in my 20s, and to have, like, the outside influences. And I wanted to do that on an aesthetic level, like a book. I do believe that, like, a book. If it's a book about. Salman Rushdie has this quote about, like, if. If he wanted to write this is talking about the satanic versus if he wanted to write a book about immigration or migration. The. The form of it had to somehow, like, mirror what it feels like when that book begins with some people falling out of the sky. And so similarly, this book had to feel like what it felt like to be part of a group, to be a black millennial woman in the last 20 years, to be aware of yourself, but also, like, insecure of how you come off to others. And also the rise of, like, self presentation that happened over the last 20 years because of social media. So there's a way that I had to structure the book. Some of the things that you might. Maybe in the beginning you did. It's okay, Tracy, if you found it difficult, the jumping around in time. Also it has to do with. I don't want to give it all away, but it had to do with the way that time has changed over the last 20 years related to our relationship to the Internet.

Tracy Thomas (14:18)

I just want to say I actually like jumping around in time. I know that that is a thing that a lot of readers do not like. That's not a problem that I have. I like it. I think that comes from my reading of nonfiction. Because a lot of times in nonfiction, like, you start at the end, then you go back to the beginning, then you work out the middle. It's like, so I don't have that problem. I have other problems, but not that particular problems.

Angela Flournoy (14:39)

I feel like.

Tracy Thomas (14:40)

Well, so I don't. I don't like to work too hard. I don't. I don't want my. I don't want my fiction to feel like homework, that's for sure. I want there to be things that happen. I. I dislike just being with a person, just them living. I need something, and it doesn't have to be like a murder. Like, you know, it could be. It could be anything. I mean, I think, like, there's a. There's a section. A section in this book pretty early on. Maybe like third or fourth because it's broken up, like you said, different time periods. Maybe it's a third or fourth where Nakia, who is a restaurant, she's a restaurateur, and she's sort of like at the beginning stages of this relationship with the person she works with. And, like, stuff happens in that section. It's not like, you know, these huge life events, but, like, something is happening. I. I need my characters to be figuring something out. And sometimes I feel like characters are just living, and I don't like that. That is something I don't like. I like them to be. I. Yes, I just need a little something. I usually say it's plot, but I'm realizing, like, there are character driven books that I really like. I think this book is pretty character driven. Things happen, but it's like, I mean, yeah, like you said, you're hanging out with a group, so it's a lot of just, like, dynamics. The book has, like, a lot of dynamic flow. But something that Clavis Natera said on this podcast is that similar to what you were saying that Salman Rush, you said, is like, you have to match the content to the context. And I loved that. I mean, I don't know if she invented that, but that's what she says. And I was like, right. Because her book is about people who work at this resort. And so she's like, this is a labor book, and what is the job? You know, these people are all working, but what is the job of the reader? The job of the reader is to read. So she wanted to make her book so compelling that you didn't want to put it down so that you were also working, like, alongside the characters. And I was like, sure, because this makes sense. I'd never heard someone talk about it in that way. And now you're saying this, and I'm like, oh, I guess this is something writers think about. Who knew you guys made plans.

Angela Flournoy (16:42)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (16:43)

Yeah. I don't know. Other things I dislike in books, I'm trying to think. I sometimes just know it when I read it, you know?

Angela Flournoy (16:50)

Yeah. I mean.

Tracy Thomas (16:50)

Oh, I don't like when people are, like, didactic. I don't. Don't tell me what to think. I'll tell you what I think when I get there. But I don't like the hand holding. I really dislike that.

Angela Flournoy (17:03)

And it's. It's not what the form is for. Right. Like, you.

Tracy Thomas (17:06)

Yeah.

Angela Flournoy (17:07)

I don't really think it's what any artistic form is for, but it's certainly not what, like, fiction is for, because you are supposed to. That's. The magic is like, I give you something, and then your brain, like, does the rest. So if I give you everything, why are you here? You know? Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (17:23)

I don't need you to connect the dots. That's why I. I'm here to connect my own dots. And I think that's always, like. That's one of my favorite things about a really good novel. Like, when we do Toni Morrison Book Club here, I'll be like, oh, D. D. And then my guest will be like, oh, this other thing. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're so right. I didn't even think of that. And then I'm like, oh, all these things are now connecting to what you just said. That. That is. I am willing to read a harder book like Toni Morrison for. For those reasons, though, I still think even though her books are hard, she doesn't. There's still that joy under them. Like, I'm still wanting to be with them. I'm not feeling, like, intimidated. It's a balance between. I don't want you to be too much smarter than me, but I also don't want you to be. Think I'm too stupid. Right.

Angela Flournoy (18:10)

I mean, I think about it. I remember. I don't remember whose class I was in. No. I think it was Alan Garganis's, like, in my MFA program a million years ago. And he was talking about. It was a checkoff class, and he was talking about which. Who among us. Sometimes we flip ahead to see when there's dialogue breaks me. And he was like, it does not mean that you Cannot have these pages and pages of beautiful narrative. But there is something on an elemental level about people speaking to each other that when nobody does, it feels like the writer is being stingy. Like, the writer is like, you don't get that. You could just get this brain of mine, and you can't get any voices.

Tracy Thomas (18:54)

Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Angela Flournoy (18:56)

That's.

Tracy Thomas (18:56)

Well, you know, I have a background in theater, so I love, like, I love a scene. Like, there are scenes in literature where I'm just like, yes, babe. I mean, Toni Morrison, I think, famously writes some of the. Like, there's those scenes in Tar Baby, the dinner table scenes. I'm like, it is giving theater so messy and, like, people talking to each other and, like, the dynamic, like, you can just feel the energy of those scenes. And when a book has a scene like that, like, just people talking, and I'm like, I am back in the Lyceum Theater in New York City. Like, I'm just like, this is life. This is what a book could do. So I do. I am. I am like, please give me dialogue. I mean, good dialogue.

Angela Flournoy (19:40)

Our baby, in particular is like, Morrison showing she can do anything anyone else can do. Yeah, it's like, you know, there's the. There's like, very useful dialog, and, you know, then there's. In Morrison, often the dialog feels like the people are. Are saying something that is, like, bigger than their, like, moment. But she has that in Tar Baby. But then she just also has mess. Like, mess. These people at this table are crazy and dysfunctional, and they are saying and doing things, you know, sometimes like, attacking each other physically. Addition to, like, in. Additionally to, like, emotionally. And they're. She can do that, too, and she can sort of balance that scene and make it feel like it makes sense next to these other more like, introspective moments also.

Tracy Thomas (20:28)

Yeah, I mean, she was kind of good at writing books. It's crazy. No one talks about it. It's like, oh, give Toni Morrison her flowers. Okay, wait. I have a very personal question for you about this book. True or False. Monique Black in the Stacks was inspired by this very podcast.

Angela Flournoy (20:47)

No. Did you. Did you feel it?

Tracy Thomas (20:52)

I just was like, oh, Monique, sorry that you stole my brand. Like, get a life.

Angela Flournoy (20:56)

Because also, famously, book has been worked on for so long.

Tracy Thomas (21:01)

Nana Kwame Ajay Brenya also has a stacks pack in in his book. And I'm just like, oh, you guys all just came up with this idea same time as me. How dare you?

Angela Flournoy (21:12)

Well, you know, time is relative. I've Been working on this book for a decade, Tracy.

Tracy Thomas (21:17)

Well, this podcast came out in seven, almost eight years ago. So, you know, maybe I inspired you in a moment while you were working on it.

Angela Flournoy (21:25)

Also, were you ever a librarian?

Tracy Thomas (21:28)

No. God, no.

Angela Flournoy (21:29)

I feel like if you spend time with librarians, you'll hear the word the stacks a lot.

Tracy Thomas (21:34)

Well, I mean, I don't. I'm not a librarian. Do I strike you as a person who could have ever been librarian?

Angela Flournoy (21:41)

Well, the title makes me wonder.

Tracy Thomas (21:43)

Well, how about my personal volume level? Does that seem like something a librarian could do?

Angela Flournoy (21:49)

I don't think Monique is. Monique is loud. She was a loud librarian.

Tracy Thomas (21:53)

Okay, well, see, maybe she was inspired by me. It's fine. You don't have to admit that you stole your entire book from this one very podcast. It's fine. I will have the lawsuit sent your way immediately.

Angela Flournoy (22:04)

You could emphasize black in the title. That would be cute. I think you know Black in the Sax.

Tracy Thomas (22:09)

Well, now I can't change the title because, A, it's been around for seven years, and B, we're having this conversation and people will hear it, and then you sue me. So now we're at an impasse, you and I. Anything you say will be held against you in a court of law. Okay, I want to know about you. This is sort of. I don't normally like to ask fiction people this, but I am kind of curious about your friend group. Like, do you have a friend group that is similar to this book? Like, were you inspired by your own friend group? I have a lot of different sort of friend groups, but I know some people have, like, that, like, core thing going on. So I'm wondering if that is true for you or were you just, like, kind of curious? And this was the best way to make a friend novel work.

Angela Flournoy (22:50)

I have several friend groups. I have my friends of over 20 years from undergrad. I have my line sisters for 20 years from undergrad. I'm a Delta. I have a group of friends from grad school. I have a group of friends that I from LA that I wrote alongside. And it's kind of all of that. And I also have a cousin friend group who this novel is dedicated to, and my sister, they were sort of my original friend groups. And so I think about all of those things. And I think probably my friends from college, my non Delta friends from college would say that they are the dominant friend group in my life, but I think that there's been sort of. I'm an Aquarius, so I love to accept the ebbs and flows of friendships. Right.

Tracy Thomas (23:45)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (23:45)

And keep them all. I like to keep them all, you know.

Tracy Thomas (23:48)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (23:48)

But they may ebb and they may flow. Yeah. So all of those were definitely in there.

Tracy Thomas (23:53)

My rising and my moon are Aquarius. Thank you.

Angela Flournoy (23:57)

But you are a Leo, Roy. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Tracy Thomas (24:02)

We're right across from each other. I was born on a full moon. That's what I found out. So apparently, if your moon is directly across your chart from your sun, that means you were born on a full moon.

Angela Flournoy (24:10)

Wow. I've been away from LA too long because.

Tracy Thomas (24:13)

Yeah. You don't care about this anymore.

Angela Flournoy (24:15)

No, I just am behind. I'm behind. I don't tell people my rising and my other things because I don't necessarily identify with them.

Tracy Thomas (24:23)

Oh, okay. But now you have to tell us at least one. What's your rising?

Angela Flournoy (24:28)

I'm not going to tell you which one, but there's some Virgo in there.

Tracy Thomas (24:31)

Oh, you don't. You do strike me as someone who could have Virgo. I just. Okay, let me ask you this about. Because this is sort of a question that I have about writing this book. You strike me as a very, like, meticulous person, especially in your craft. Just the way you talk about it, the way that I felt so taken care of in reading the book. I just felt like you put a lot of time and thought. Thought and specificity into this book, which strikes me as Virgo. Like, is that actually how you write, or am I just projecting onto you what is, like, your writing life actually look like?

Angela Flournoy (25:09)

Well, it is. I'm very hard on myself, so there.

Tracy Thomas (25:16)

I.

Angela Flournoy (25:16)

Maybe. Maybe that's the, like, meticulous part. But I am. I'm very slow because I am very. Not that I was actually writing this whole. This book for 10 years straight. I was doing other stuff, but I am very slow. I'm very hard on myself. I would say is like the negative way to put it. Honest with myself, I would. The way that I would like to repackage that as, like. I'm not going to lie. If it's not. If it's not good, it's not going in. And we're not. It's just not. And so I think that what good is changes. But for this book, I did feel that it needed to be a little bit of a kitchen sink book. My first book also kind of was. My next book will not be, But. But it needed to have everything because I wanted it to be about, like, I wanted it to be generational. Like, I had that ambition for it. I Wanted to write a big social novel. I wanted to write like, that kind of book. Like, they put, I think, I don't know, on a lot of the marketing copy era defining. And if there is an ambition I had, it was like, what is this moment that we are living in and where are we going? And I did want to write that, and that did take some meticulousness. But I would say in my, like, personal life, I'm both. I can be very, like, I don't care about these things. Yeah, the things I care about, I care about.

Tracy Thomas (26:49)

Got it. My friend has a saying where she says, same thing, don't care. Or like, someone's like, oh, like, should I wear the purple or the blue? It's like, same thing, don't care. And I like that because I have that in my life too. Sometimes I'm just like, I don't. This is stupid. But then there's things where I'm like, this is the most important grain of rice that has ever existed. And I can't believe no one else cares about this one small grain of rice. Speaking of sort of era defining, I was thinking about your book in relationship to some of the stories that I love, both on the page, but also on screen or just in general about like, black women's friendships. Do you think of your work in a lineage and if so, what do you think of this book in a lineage with or tied to like a year ago?

Angela Flournoy (27:37)

Maybe I don't have. What is time? I was asked at some event to like an early, early, early pre pub event to. To give like a. Like a comp. Like a Hollywood comp.

Tracy Thomas (27:48)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (27:49)

And I said that it is as if like waiting to Excel had a baby with a visit from the goon squad.

Tracy Thomas (27:57)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (27:57)

And I think that there are ways that both of those books obviously won more as far as subject matter, but the other maybe structurally are related to this book. And I also. I read. I read, reread the Woman of Brewster Place. I read SULA multiple times. I also started this book before Insecure was on air. Shout out to Issa, my friend, who we are going to be in conversation with so soon. Very excited. And I was just really excited about it. I think one of the most exciting things about Insecure towards the end is the beef. There's real beef. And I feel like in order to. When I think about how do you keep a friend for decades? Sometimes it can just be. You remain surface level for decades, but often you. In order to go deeper, sometimes there has to be some kind of Confrontation. And as a Leo, I'm sure you can identify with, like, conflict is not abuse, right?

Tracy Thomas (29:10)

Like, oh, yes, I love a conflict.

Angela Flournoy (29:12)

Sometimes we gotta mix it up to move forward.

Tracy Thomas (29:14)

Yeah. This is something that's very hard for me because other people don't feel that way. And it's hard because sometimes I'll just say, you know what I'm thinking? Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with that. And sometimes people don't like that so much.

Angela Flournoy (29:28)

Often.

Tracy Thomas (29:29)

Oftentimes, yeah, most people don't appreciate it. And I'm just like, oh, just offering an opinion. Wasn't even trying to be mean. Just letting you know. Yeah, it's so hard to be a Leo. I really, I really persevere, you know, I'm just such a fighter. Okay, we're going to pivot a little bit. Something that we do on this show. It's called Ask the Stacks. Someone has written in. They're looking for a book recommendation. I'm going to read to you what they are looking for. You're going to give us one to three, but one is totally fine. Recommendations and I will give a few too. People who want to do this on the podcast, email Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. okay, this one comes from Amber. I have really enjoyed your podcast and have recently and gladly rediscovered reading again after becoming a new mom. Our little one is three and a half. I'm feeling like I'm coming out of the fog of early parenting and realize that I don't quite know who the F I am anymore. I would love any reads that you recommend that center in and around self discovery. And for someone who was a parentified child, I have trouble engaging in play and enthusiastic joy. Excited about any recommendations you might have that are novels or memoirs. I can go first. Or if you have something off the top of your head, you can go first.

Angela Flournoy (30:48)

You go first.

Tracy Thomas (30:50)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (30:51)

So.

Tracy Thomas (30:53)

Self discovery is not something that I generally read about. Like, it's not something that interests me for the most part. However, there's a new book that came out this year that I haven't finished. I just started it and I liked it and I've heard great things about it. It's called Second Life by Amanda Hess and it's all about being a mom and a parent right now in this age of Internet, it's not exactly about self discovery, but it is sort of like what the it feels like to be like having a question about your kid and then, you know, googling it and having all these apps and all this stuff to track you and tell you how to be a parent. And I think that that is sort of an interesting thing to think about in, you know, my kids are five and a half in this second phase of parenting. Like, you're out of the baby phase. You're now into the, like, toddler, little kid thing. And it's like, can I trust my instincts? Like, maybe I should? Maybe I don't need all this. So that would be my first recommendation. My second recommendation would be a memoir. It's How We Fight for Our Lives by Saeed Jones. It's his memoir about the death of his mom and him sort of coming into himself. I don't know if I would fully say self discovery, but it is very coming of age. He's black, he's queer, he's in college. He's sort of figuring out who he is. He's also just such a beautiful writer that it's about life much more broadly than his own in a lot of ways. And then my third one is sort of. I don't know why I picked this, but I don't. It just felt right to me. Which is the Mothers by Brit Bennett. It's about these teenage girls. I don't know if I can spoil any of it. I don't know what. I don't. I read it a while ago, so I don't know what is a spoiler, but they're dealing with mom stuff, as you can imagine, because it's called the Mothers, and it's just really good. It's a really great novel. I think it's a novel that is easy enough to read in the new parenting stage if you're just coming back into reading. Because sometimes, like, I know people struggle with kind of getting back into reading more difficult books. And it sort of really smart and does so much, but again, it has that easy feel to it. You don't feel like you're working super hard when you read Brit stuff. How about you?

Angela Flournoy (33:02)

So swear I'm not gonna do this for everything, but if you wanna read about a parentified child, my new novel, the Wilderness.

Tracy Thomas (33:12)

I was gonna put your novel, but I was like, that's so inappropriate. Desiree, right? Is that who you enjoy?

Angela Flournoy (33:20)

But yes, there is. Motherhood is one of the themes in the book. And just like a meditation on motherhood sort of generationally as well as there is a character who is a new mother. And the feeling of when do I get back to myself? Is sort of central to her. Her journey in the book. Another novel that I just picked up in Jackson, Mississippi. And I have not read yet, but I was on a panel with her and she spoke really compellingly about this subject is the Girls who Grew Big by Leila Motley, which is about actual children, like teenagers who become moms, who. One of them is sent to Florida to have her child. And I'm very excited to read it. And I know from Layla's writing that it should be both like, you know, impactful but also delightful. Yeah. And let me think of an older book. An older book. I'm Going to Take it all the Way Back to the street by Ann Petry, which is about a single mother in Harlem and in kind of like Harlem Renaissance Harlem. And it is not like, like it's kind of dark, like there are some dark things that happen. But it is about how do you make a life that is better for your child and still try to, like, have a life?

Tracy Thomas (34:47)

Okay, Amber, if you read any of our picks, you have to tell us if we did a good job or not. If you, if you still approve of us, if you hated our recommendations, we want to know. I want to know. Don't tell Angela, Tell me all for all four. To Angela. Don't worry, don't spam her. But everyone else, you can get a recommendation read on air by emailing. Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com and now we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey friends, it's Tracy. So how have you been enjoying the podcast? Hopefully you're loving it. And if you are, you might want a little bit more of the Stacks. And I've got two places that you should check out to keep these bookish good vibes going. The Stacks Pack, which is my Patreon community. And you can find it@patreon.com thestacks and my newsletter, which I call Unstacked, is over on substack@tracy thomas.substack.com Let me break it down for you. The Stacks Pack is where community lives. We're talking book club meetups, a private discord to chat books all day long. Our year long mega reading challenge to push your reading goals to the next level. Plus, members get a bonus episode every month. Month. It's a great way to support my work and to connect with an awesome crew of readers. Over on Unstacked, I'm keeping the conversation going twice a week with posts that cover everything from my mini reviews and book rankings to pop culture hot takes and rants, plus whatever's on my TBR there's also a free option over there so you can stay connected with me. So head to patreon.com the stacks and Tracy thomas.substack.com to connect and meet with other book lovers and support this black woman run independent podcast. I can't wait to talk books with you. Nothing is scarier than starting a new business. I should know. I started the Stacks like eight years ago and figuring out how to turn the logistics of everything into an actual business was overwhelming and pretty scary. Finding the right tool that can ease the stress is so important. Which is why I wanted to introduce you all to Shopify. Shopify helps millions of businesses and powers 10% of all E commerce in the United States. So it's safe to say that they know I don't know a little something about business. Tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to analytics to payment. Plus get the word out about your business. Like a full marketing team is behind you with Shopify's built in marketing and email tools. And maybe you're not the most tech savvy. I get it. Shopify's got your back with hundreds of ready to go templates to match your brand and your style. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com the stacks. Go to shopify.com the stacks shopify.com the stacks Angela, we're back. It's time for you. You're in the hot seat now. Two books you love, one book you hate.

Angela Flournoy (37:46)

Okay. I love we the Animals by Justin Torres. I'm not just saying that because I love Justin Torres, which I do dearly, but because you want to talk about economy, you want to talk about skin in the game. I just feel like it is a book that makes me feel excited about doing. I'm. I'm. I love economy. I talked about being a kid and sink writer, but I really do love people who can do a lot with a little. I wish I could do it. I also. Another book I love is I love On Beauty by Zadie Smith. I'm gonna.

Tracy Thomas (38:22)

I've never read it. I've never read any Zadie Smith.

Angela Flournoy (38:25)

A lot of people do not rock with her fiction. But you know what? It's not perfect, but I enjoy it. But you love it. Every time I reread it, I'm like, you know, I think it's aged the best of her early novels.

Tracy Thomas (38:38)

Okay, and then what about a book you hate?

Angela Flournoy (38:45)

I hate. You know, I got a five year old, so I like to say that hate hurts you. But a book that I threw across the room is Freedom by Jonathan Franzen.

Tracy Thomas (39:02)

I also hate that book. I did read it. That is exactly the kind of shit I don't want to be doing with my time. That book was boring.

Angela Flournoy (39:12)

Okay, you know what? I was fine with that. I. There was a moment like two thirds of the way through where one of the characters sort of left his wife to be with this brown woman. And this brown woman is silly. So silly that she literally drives herself off of a mountain. And I'm like, in what? Like, she has really no interiority before that, and then she drives herself off the mountain. And I think that Jonathan Franzen is actually a really good writer. And I love the correction, but what in the Toni Morrison. Morrison playing in the Dark is going on there? I don't know.

Tracy Thomas (39:54)

I love it. I love it. We hate the same book. I mean, though, I hate many books. And I'm okay for hate hurting me because I was hurt having to read that book. So I'm going to live in that. Wait, I want to ask you a question, because when you said that Justin Torres's book with the economy, you're like, that's not something I could do. Are there things. Is that something you'd ever try to do? Would you ever try to write like, something like that? Or is that just not interesting to you as a writer? But it's like, but you love it as a reader.

Angela Flournoy (40:23)

I'm a maximalist. I feel like it's just, if I'm planning Thanksgiving, there's gonna be like one too many things on the table. My house. I'm not doing the Marie Kondo. I don't know her. It's not like I'm a hoarder, but I like. I just like stuff. And so I just don't think that I could. It's a dream to have a book be fewer than 200 pages.

Tracy Thomas (40:53)

Yes, it's a dream to read a book that's few hundred fewer than I remember.

Angela Flournoy (40:56)

Terry Gross recently was talking about how she ideally thinks, like, a book should be under 300 pages. Yes, I'm at 304 in this one, and it killed me to be under 304.

Tracy Thomas (41:05)

I don't think you're at 304, are you? Because, I mean, technically the book is, but I think the book ends on 289. 290 killed me.

Angela Flournoy (41:14)

Killed me.

Tracy Thomas (41:15)

It was an honor for me. You know what? I don't. I don't hate a book that's over 300 pages. But once you get to 400, you. You've got to be doing something that requires my time. I will forgive you some. This and that here and there. If you're keeping it around. You know, I think 250 is pretty perfect. But once you're requiring me to go for. Then I'm. Then I'm like, taking notes. I'm like, okay, we could have got this. I don't know about that. Did we need this? Like, I just get in my head. More critical. Not for nonfiction, though. I am. It depends.

Angela Flournoy (41:52)

So you're reading the Robert Carroll and you're chill, but then, like, you need your fiction.

Tracy Thomas (41:56)

No, that's not true. It just depends on what it is. Like, I understand if you're writing, like, if you're writing, like, a massive book, that you need all of this stuff in it, but there's some nonfiction books where I'm like, should have been a literal essay. Like, this is a paragraph. Like, so I'm harder on nonfiction in some ways, but also, I unders. Like, I read the biography of Ronald Reagan. It was like, 900 pages. It did not need to be 900 pages, but I don't think you could have done it well in 250. Do you know what I mean? So, like, I understand some. He was like a hundred when he died and he got famous. Like, he was in the war. Like, he just did a lot of stuff. So, you know, I. I feel like.

Angela Flournoy (42:35)

With fiction, there are some novels that are long that I love.

Tracy Thomas (42:38)

I agree. I just start to be critic. More critical. When you cross the 400 line, I'm just like, okay.

Angela Flournoy (42:44)

But there are long. Know what they're doing? Yeah, there's a few out there.

Tracy Thomas (42:52)

I'm in a favorite, like, super longs. Like. Like chunkers.

Angela Flournoy (42:56)

I am just finishing rereading Anna Kern, and I have, like, 40 pages left, and I actually, like, I didn't take it with me on tour because I was like, it'll be a nice treat to come back to these last 40 pages. I've been reading it all summer, you know, alongside other things. But it's fine to have a book that stays at home. Like, it's also. They're, like, really heavy.

Tracy Thomas (43:15)

Yeah.

Angela Flournoy (43:16)

Yeah, absolutely. Marlon James is A Brief History of Seven Killings. It could have been longer. Like, I.

Tracy Thomas (43:23)

Okay, I did. It could have been shorter for me. Less of it.

Angela Flournoy (43:27)

I just.

Tracy Thomas (43:27)

That. But that book, way too hard for me. And you Know it. You know, that book's too hard for me. From everything I've said, you know, I had to do way too much work with that.

Angela Flournoy (43:35)

But the voices are so like, the amount of voice that he is able to maintain, so impressive.

Tracy Thomas (43:44)

So impressive. Too hard for me. Couldn't do it. Struggle. The ending, though, I. When I got to the end, I was like, gotta start this book over immediately. Like, I, Like, I was compelled. By the time I got there, it was too long for me. It was a struggle. I think I understand that. It's good that I like it. Not so much.

Angela Flournoy (44:02)

I loved it. I should reread it now. You. Now you got me wanting to reread it. I love. You know, winter is for a long book.

Tracy Thomas (44:08)

Book. So, I mean, I like a long book in summer.

Angela Flournoy (44:13)

Well, then I have to carry. Well, you don't. You don't. You're not on the train. Because then it's like, oh, I gotta carry it around. It's hot outside. I'm inside more in the winter anyway, so it's like, it's me in this book and I'm not taking it.

Tracy Thomas (44:23)

I did live in New York and I did used to carry long books on the train. I just want you to know.

Angela Flournoy (44:27)

Okay, well, that's, you know, you're strong. Strong women.

Tracy Thomas (44:30)

Malia, baby, you can't really see my muscles, but everybody, they look really good. Don't worry. Went to Orange Theory yesterday. Okay. What are you. What's the last, like, the most recent book you read? That was just great.

Angela Flournoy (44:46)

Easy. The Double Three Times by Ricky Fane.

Tracy Thomas (44:51)

You loved.

Angela Flournoy (44:52)

I loved it. I love a generational saga set in Tennessee and a little bit in sort of like pre enslavement. West Africa follows this one family and they have like a guardian. Like an anti. Guardian angel, literally the devil that sort of follows along with this family. But the way that the story sort of incorporates African and African American like belief, traditions and folklore and spirituality, but also is just really funny. It reminds me of just. It reminds me of Zora Neale Hurston, but it just reminds me of the blues and it reminds me of just having fun. Like, it just feels like a book that Ricky had fun writing and was able to pull off. I saw Ricky was. I worked with him at Kambilio, which is like a black fiction workshop, several years ago. I don't remember how many years ago, but I saw just like a chapter then and I was like, wow, this is a really good chapter. How is he gonna pull off this devil situation for a whole novel? And it's one of those things where you read it and it's like, I don't know if you're gonna be able to do it, but I'm gonna be along for the ride until it falls apart. And it never fell apart.

Tracy Thomas (46:10)

I love that. Okay, this doesn't have. These don't have to be new books. But what are some books you're just looking forward to reading?

Angela Flournoy (46:18)

I am looking forward to reading. Things in nature merely grow by.

Tracy Thomas (46:26)

Talk about not only economy, but just fucking fantastic. God, that book is so good.

Angela Flournoy (46:32)

I'm probably gonna read it in a couple weeks when I get back home interested. I feel like it's time for me to do some rereading. I am interested in rereading. Well, you know what I've never read? Speaking Marlon James. I've never read the Book of Night Women. Interested in reading. I knew you were going to ask me this, and I was like, that's easy. Top of my head. And now look. Now look at me. That's.

Tracy Thomas (46:59)

Okay. Well, let me ask you this then. How do you pick a book? Are you looking at reviews, friend suggestions, people, you know, authors you've read? Like, how do you decide what you want to read?

Angela Flournoy (47:12)

I decide based on vibes or just. I look at my bookcase because I buy the books, and then I just have them for however long. Could be just a couple weeks, could be years, until I read them. So sometimes it's just I feel like I want a book of this size. Like this is going to fit in my bag nicely, or I want a really large book, or it'll be that I read criticism. You. And I believe in criticism. You know, not everybody believes in it, but I read some criticism, whether they hated it or loved it. That made me think, you know what? I wanna. I wanna be a part of this conversation by reading this book, you know?

Tracy Thomas (47:50)

That's exactly right. That's why I always say talking about books is good for books. People think that's bad for books. It's not. Everything doesn't have to be a rave sometimes.

Angela Flournoy (48:00)

The way that you talk about it, though, that's.

Tracy Thomas (48:02)

Yeah. Well, it's gotta be lovingly, and it has to be.

Angela Flournoy (48:06)

Again, take the book on its terms, on its merits.

Tracy Thomas (48:08)

Yeah. On what it's trying to do.

Angela Flournoy (48:09)

Language. Like, if you're speaking a different language than the book to talk about the book, then it's like, this is about you.

Tracy Thomas (48:14)

This is not about the book. That's right. It's like. But I mean, I always say, what is the book Trying to do.

Angela Flournoy (48:18)

Did it.

Tracy Thomas (48:19)

Do it well and did I like it? Those are the questions. But you know, people. Everyone's so nice. Everyone's be so nice.

Angela Flournoy (48:28)

Well, I think it's just we live in a. We do live in an age of cruelty.

Tracy Thomas (48:32)

We do.

Angela Flournoy (48:33)

People are like, well, in the ways that it feels low stakes to be nice. Let's just be nice.

Tracy Thomas (48:37)

But it doesn't help me know what the is in the book. And then I read the book and I'm like, oh, so you're the idiot. You thought this was great. Like, you're a liar and a cheat.

Angela Flournoy (48:50)

Speaking of things that are great, what.

Tracy Thomas (48:52)

Are books that you love to recommend to people, like your go to recs.

Angela Flournoy (48:57)

I love to recommend Roberto Balanio's the Savage Detectives because I wouldn't recommend that to you.

Tracy Thomas (49:04)

No, I know that's too hard for me.

Angela Flournoy (49:06)

But I would recommend it to people who are interested in thinking about what fiction can do outside of an Anglophone perspective of what fiction is supposed to be doing. I would recommend similarly. I mean, you know, a lot of African listeners will be like, duh. But Taib Salis season, seasons of migration to the North.

Tracy Thomas (49:30)

We did that on this podcast for Book club.

Angela Flournoy (49:33)

Still is a book that I feel like economy. But the way that it is shaped is not like a lot of, you know, traditional Anglophone literature is, like, shaped. And it is the assumptions that a person might have about how the story is going to unfold is not how it unfolds. I would suggest Edward P. Jones is all on Hagar's Children. People love to suggest Lost in the City, but there are some stories in All Aunt Hagar's Children that I still think about. I think it's just every single story is a universe.

Tracy Thomas (50:10)

I've never read any Edward P. Jones.

Angela Flournoy (50:14)

Tracy, you can never understand me.

Tracy Thomas (50:18)

Okay, where should I start?

Angela Flournoy (50:21)

I actually think that you would really enjoy the known world. It is. Maybe it's 400 pages, but it is like, there's a part of it where it's like, am I in a Western? Like, there it is. Things happen. Like, things happen. I always talk about how I wish it could be a film, but Hollywood, you know, a film about black people who were enslavers.

Tracy Thomas (50:46)

People.

Angela Flournoy (50:48)

Their brains are not, like, expansive enough today, but maybe one day. But it is. I think, especially now, where we live in an age where some of the narratives of, like, who is a victim and who is an aggressive aggressor are being complicated. Now is the time to revisit the known world for Those reasons, and also just because it is, like, an expansive, like, really compelling story.

Tracy Thomas (51:14)

How do you like to read? Where are you snacks and beverages, time of day, temperature, anything. Set the scene for, like, your ideal reading situation.

Angela Flournoy (51:26)

Janet Jackson said, anytime, any place.

Tracy Thomas (51:28)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (51:29)

112 said we could do it anyway. Anyway. And this is how I feel. I like to read everywhere. I. I will read anywhere in the house. There's not a room I will not read in. I don't need a certain chair. I don't need a certain time of day. I will read on my stoop. I will read in a park. I will read on the train.

Tracy Thomas (51:52)

You're literally. You're literally giving. Yes, literally, it's Green Eggs and Ham.

Angela Flournoy (51:58)

But for reading, it's me that's the, you know, admission. Some PG examples. That's my rated G example. I love this. I love this.

Tracy Thomas (52:08)

It's the opposite, though.

Angela Flournoy (52:09)

Could you.

Tracy Thomas (52:10)

Would you. On a train? I could. I would. On a train, In a car? On a plane. Can you read in the car?

Angela Flournoy (52:17)

I can read in the car. If I'm in the back seat, I can read in the car.

Tracy Thomas (52:20)

And I can only read my Kindle in the car. I can't read a physical book for whatever reason. I get so car sick, I can barely read in the car. But if I have to, I could do it on the Kindle. Okay, this is our sort of lightning round, which is just quick answers. What's the last book you purchased?

Angela Flournoy (52:40)

The last book I purchased, I think, was the Girls who Grew Big by Leila Molly.

Tracy Thomas (52:45)

What's the last book that made you laugh?

Angela Flournoy (52:47)

Anna Karenina.

Tracy Thomas (52:49)

Okay. Were you laughing at the. The. The wheat or were you laughing at the love affair? Another book we've also done on book club, the Anna Carnivore.

Angela Flournoy (52:57)

I was laughing at Tolstoy's Shade. So, you know, people talk about, oh, you can't have your book have all these, like, specific time period things because they won't be timeless. Like, sometimes you have to go to the back to get the joke, but then when you get it. So I'm like, almost at the end. So it's the part. Where was the name? Oblonsky tries to get this divorce for his sister from Alexi Alexandrovich, and they have this, like, medium who falls asleep. And then it's like, get the man out of here who came to ask a question. And. And it's ridiculous and hilarious, but it's based on a medium who did, like, kind of scam his way into aristocracy in Russia at the time. Is really funny.

Tracy Thomas (53:37)

I love this. I don't remember that part at all, but.

Angela Flournoy (53:40)

Of course you don't. There are so many people are always just showing up at people's houses.

Tracy Thomas (53:43)

There's. And there's so many people and so many names. I'm like, who? Okay, what's the last book that made you cry?

Angela Flournoy (53:50)

Probably Joan Didion's the Year of Magical Thinking, which I reread last year.

Tracy Thomas (53:55)

What was the last book that made you angry?

Angela Flournoy (53:59)

Oh, probably Mega Majumdar's A Burning.

Tracy Thomas (54:05)

The last book where you felt like you learned a lot.

Angela Flournoy (54:10)

Oh. Is Kindred Creation by my friend Ida Miriam Davis, which is like, about sort of non Western, like African centric ways of building community, among other things. And there was just a lot of examples in there that I hadn't thought about, like our relationship to time and how sort of Western centric that is, et cetera.

Tracy Thomas (54:34)

What's a book that you're embarrassed that you've still never read?

Angela Flournoy (54:39)

Embarrassed? I'm not. I don't really get embarrassed because I'm like, you know, what is a canon? But a book that I have found myself in a position to pretend I've read.

Tracy Thomas (54:53)

Okay.

Angela Flournoy (54:54)

And I've never read the whole thing is probably Moby Dick. I've only read parts of Moby Dick.

Tracy Thomas (55:02)

Almost everybody says Moby Dick. That's why I never plan to read. If I can avoid reading Moby Dick, if I can live my whole life and never read Moby Dick, I'll be like, sign me up, babe. But I do know that's that's also a book that a lot of people say it's a book they hate. So just so you know, might not be worth your time. Do you have a problematic favorite book or author? Either one.

Angela Flournoy (55:28)

Maybe is the corrections from alone?

Tracy Thomas (55:30)

It could be. Yeah. I think he's problematic. I don't know.

Angela Flournoy (55:32)

Yeah, I mean, since I did not like I threw another book across the room. I liked the Corrections. I haven't reread it in maybe 10 years, but I liked it.

Tracy Thomas (55:44)

What about your favorite book from childhood? Since you were an avid early reader?

Angela Flournoy (55:48)

I am going to not mention the typical ones and go with all of the early Anne Rice vampire books. The way that, like, that was my sexuality in junior high school was just I am a gay male vampire that guess me. I loved them. I just read them and reread them. Yes, I love it.

Tracy Thomas (56:14)

Okay. If you could assign one book in your class as a high school English teacher, what book are you assigning?

Angela Flournoy (56:26)

Sorry. To just be this person. A broken record, but I feel like alongside this mouse, Mice and Men and Grapes of Wrath, is the known world. Like, if you really want to think about this country and where we are and where we're going, I really think that that novel should be required reading in high schools alongside those sort of, like, American classics.

Tracy Thomas (56:53)

I love it. Okay, last one. I stole this from the New York Times. If you could require the current president of the United States of America to read one book, what would it be?

Angela Flournoy (57:05)

A book of spells that, after he.

Tracy Thomas (57:08)

Read them, reads them aloud and they cast on himself.

Angela Flournoy (57:12)

Right. No, I mean, the thing is, I could say, oh, the Constitution. But it's like the thing is the ignorance. That's. I don't believe it. I actually believe that he's not ignorant of these things. He just also is a student of history enough to know that if nobody stops you, you could get away with doing a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy Thomas (57:34)

Okay, everybody at home, go get your copy of the Wilderness. It's out in the world. I read some, but I also did listen to some of the audiobook. You read some of the audiobook?

Angela Flournoy (57:45)

I do.

Tracy Thomas (57:47)

Just a little bit. It's. It's very good audiobook, if you're an audio person. It's a very good book. So it works, you know how. Wherever you need it. And Angela will be back to discuss Frankenstein by Mary Shelley with us. It is the first time we have ever done horror on this podcast. Because I am such a scaredy cat, I'm not even sure I'm gonna be able to read the book because I'm too scared of everything. But we're going to be discussing that right back here on October 29th. Come back, hear me cry about how scared I was the whole time and how I've been having nightmare sin. I don't know. I'm scared of everything. I get nightmares when I read nonfiction. I get nightmares when I read anything scary.

Angela Flournoy (58:29)

Oh, you definitely might have nightmares, but it's not actually scary.

Tracy Thomas (58:32)

Okay, well, sounds scary to me. But we'll be doing that on October 29th. You can get your copy of the Wilderness wherever you get your books. Angela, thank you so much for being here.

Angela Flournoy (58:43)

Thank you. This was wonderful.

Tracy Thomas (58:45)

And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks, foreign y'. All. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to Angela Flournoy for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Eliza Rosenberry for making this episode possible. Angela will be back on Wednesday, October 29th for the Stacks Book Club conversation about Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. If you love the show, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. And you know what, why don't you go tell your friend about the show too? That would be amazing. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok. And now we're also sharing videos on on YouTube. You can check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com. today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Frielo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.