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- [00:00]
A
What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warby parker.com when.
- [00:31]
B
I see the young guys coming in, it's interesting but like the hunger that they all have to want something more though, you know, and they're trying to figure it out and they're at that stage where they're like, no, no, I got a really good appeal issue though. And the wise part of you that knows that, that, that the appeal is such a long shot, like you just feel bad telling them that but then you kind of like shifted to like, well, if you have to do. I mean I was like, yo, like there's opportunities here and you just got to try to find them. And sometimes they're right next to you. Sometimes you just got to come up under the wing of somebody that's going to show you, show you the ropes.
- [01:15]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas and today I am joined by John J. Lennon Brian, who is a prison journalist and the author of a brand new book called the Tragedy of True Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us. This book explores the lives of four men who have all committed murder and are trying to find their purpose behind bars. John J. Lennon offers a unique perspective to these stories because he was convicted of murder and sentenced to a 28 year life sentence. And he joins us today as he serves time in a New York prison. John joins us today to talk about his experiences, what it's like to be a writer behind bars and why he felt that his perspective makes uniquely qualified to tell these stories. As a reminder, our book club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. And we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 29th with Angela Flournoy. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you're not yet, go ahead and subscribe to the stacks brand new YouTube page. You can find us at at the Stacks pod over on YouTube. If you like this podcast, if you want more of it, more bookish content, more community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon by going to patre.com the stacks and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked@tracy thomas.substack.com. both of these places are going to give you bonus episodes, fresh content. And by subscribing, you get to know that you're making it possible for me to make the Stacks free to all every single week. All right, now it is time for my conversation with John J. Lennon. All right, everybody, I am so excited. Today I am joined by John J. Lennon, and he is the author of a brand new book. It's called the Tragedy of True Crime. Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us. John, welcome to the Stacks.
- [03:09]
B
Hi, Tracy. Thanks for having me.
- [03:10]
A
Thank you so much for being here. So we always sort of start here with these conversations in about 30 seconds or so. Can you just tell folks a little bit about the book?
- [03:19]
B
This is a book where I try my hand at true crime, but sort of in a nuanced way, I'd like to think. And I see this book as less of a true crime critique. If it's showing the harms through scenes in the narrative, then it is, and more of just like a story in which characters, including my own, can become accessible in ways that they have never before been. I'd like to think so. This is a first person journalistic book about me and three of my peers in prison. We're all locked up, right?
- [03:54]
A
You're all locked up. And mostly you all were together at different points in your time at Sing Sing, right? That was sort of the central location, or that's where you are now.
- [04:03]
B
That's where I am now. And two of the subjects were here when I started the book. And then I transferred to another prison and I met Robert Chambers, who is, I should correct the initial statement. He is home now. He did get released in 2023.
- [04:19]
A
Right, right, right, right. And so basically, I mean, you. You sort of weave your own story into the story with these three other men. And you're talking about sort of, like you said, the nuances of the ways that we talk about these kinds of stories, stories that involve murder, stories that involve sort of these sensational crimes in some of these cases. And I'm just. I guess the real question is, like, why did you want to write this book? What did you. What did you feel like you could bring to these stories that maybe you hadn't seen before you felt was necessary?
- [04:52]
B
Well, I. I didn't want to write a book up. I. I don't think, like, when I started to become a writer about, you know, in prison, I Don't think I was like, oh, I got to write a book about true crime. I thought it was kind of a cheesy kind of genre, and I didn't think it was sort of an accurate depiction that, you know, sort of late at night when I sort of, you know, went to sleep. Over the years, I've been in prison 24 years now, and I've not occasional, you know, I've, I've, I've indulged with some date lines and some 2000s. I've seen the guys on my tears. I've done all that. But around 2013, I became, I got locked up in 2001, you know, I killed a man. I was involved with the, with a, in a lifestyle of selling drugs. And I deeply regret. And eventually I've come to, you know, find remorse for that. And along the way, I joined a creative writing workshop and took the first person journalism in 2013. Just sort of follow the trajectory of the sort of arc in prison. And I had my first teeth published in 2000 in the Atlantic. And I kind of started writing about. It was a need for, I saw, for a voice from the inside and because we had overstuffed prisons and people were kind of curious about what was going on inside. So it kind of was writing more pieces about like, what's it like in here? And you know, tapping into, tap it into more social justice issues, but not really, but, but kind of in a, in a more gritty way. I started writing for magazines and, and by 2018, I was, I had, I had landed some feature magazine pieces and, and I. And then true, like a True crime came calling. They did a show on me. Chris Cuomo's producers at HLN reached out to me and said they wanted to do a story about my redemption and, but that's not really what it was about.
- [06:46]
A
Right.
- [06:46]
B
So you asked, like, why did I write a book about true crime? Well, that's, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't looking to, to write a book about true crime. True crime kind of came looking for me. So that's what, so that's, you know, eventually, you know, in those years, I became more of a critic. I started writing magazine pieces and, and then I pitched a proposal. I tried my hand at it. So this is a narrative driven book that captures the other part of true crime. I say the other part is true crime traditionally ends with this sort of investigation and the conviction, the punishment and the end. I don't think you guys really know what goes on after we go to Prison. And I try to. That's what this. That's what the second part of the book is about.
- [07:40]
A
Right? Like, the journey from where. Where we leave you and what happens. How did you. How do you think about, you know, sort of balancing and telling these stories in this more holistic way while still, you know, holding space for the taking of a life and the victims and their families? Like, how are you, as the storyteller, trying to. I guess, you know, I hate to use this word, but I think it's the word that people use, which is, like, to humanize without, like, minimizing the harm.
- [08:14]
B
Yeah, well, it's. It's quite the needle, right? You know, I. Yeah, I. You know, I try at first. I try to. I try to be fully responsible and fully accountable for what I did. I think that's. That's the place where we all start. Like, I think just in my magazine writing, we. As writers, I think I have a sort of burden where I have to sort of come clean. Even when I was writing these magazine pieces that weren't necessarily about other men's murders, but they may have been about a man suffering from mental illness or a young man trying to get into a college program, wanting more. And then I'm sort of writing it in these magazines, and it's kind of like, wait, this guy's in prison. What'd he do? Like, I don't understand. Like, how is he? Right. So I was. I always had that, like. So the magazine. But through the magazine world, I kind of learned to level with the reader. And I think the reader will sort of follow you on this path, wherever you want to take them, if you sort of level with them. And so eventually I, you know, sort of, you know, when it. When it came to the experience, I'm always writing about my experiences, right? Something will bother me, and I'll turn to the page to sort of sort it out, because that's all I really have. You know, in 24 years, you know, nobody that works for corrections has ever asked, like, what do you do with what you did? Like, what it would. Like, how do you grapple with killing a man? You think that, like, that's what your taxpayers go to, but it's really not, right? So, you know, I had grappled on the page with that in my magazine writing, and when I turned to this book about, you know, these men, I had to do the same thing. In the portions that I do sort of write about my, you know, I sort of weave my story that's kind of structured and meeting them, I didn't want to enter the space with the crime. We kind of see the structure of true crime. It's usually 911 calls, gunshots, things like that. It's sort of in media's rays opening real drama point, and then they drop back. It's all about the investigation and all this other stuff. But then it ends, like I previously said. So I wanted to just, like, meet these guys in prison and just like, meet them like regular people, but also curious about something. And then we get to that later. So we get to sort of what they did later. So it's me, the backstories. I want to get into the backstories. And then we get to what we did, the killing section. And then in those. I do write about what I did because I'm writing about what they did. Right. I'm not like, detached narrator, to answer your question. I try to write about it with. I try to write. When I do enter my. Into the narrative and write about my own crime, it's. It's always in furtherance of. Of. Of trying to understand something more, like what were my desires. What, you know, we. We kind of understand the external, you know, sort of motivations of crimes. Right. People can see those, but you don't really see what's in somebody's insides, their soul. Like why? Like why? Like why? And I think that's a big question, True crime. So I do write about that, but I don't write about that to romanticize. I write about that to illuminate the dark spaces that folks can't see.
- [11:28]
A
Yeah. I mean, I'm curious also about, like, logistically how you picked the other three men. I mean, there's a lot of people that you could choose from. So what was it about their stories that you felt was compelling? Or was it more logistics? Was it, like, how did you narrow it down to who you wanted or how did you know who to approach?
- [11:49]
B
Yeah, well, again, with magazine writing, I kind of, like always, I learned an eye for story. I'm very grateful for editors I've worked with. And you kind of like. You kind of like. I mean, I think the oversimplified version of story, I think John Franklin once put. Put it forth in Writing for Story. He said, you know, definition of story, the sympathetic character overcomes a complicated situation. There's different development points, I think. Or she has to sort of hurdle, and they have to hurdle and overcome, and. And then there's a resolution, conflict resolution. But, you know, that's really. It's. It's a little complicated to, to, to just find sympathetic characters. But if you're watching, if you're watching action, not just listening, but watching action, which I have the opportunity to do as an immersive journalist. I'm immersed with these guys. I live these guys. I see their actions, I see character on display. Despite what society may, you know, sort of say about, you know, or, you know, sort of. When you google somebody, you'll just get their crime. Unfortunately a lot of guys here, but I kind of see their day to day life, their routines, what do they do. And that's how I pick them as, as characters. Because I would watch them first. It may sound a little creepy, but I think it's just intuitive, right? Like, I think there's a scene when I'm like, when I'm, you know, sort of. I'm always. I don't think it's something you could turn off, you know? Yeah, yeah, maybe you can relate, so.
- [13:16]
A
Yeah, I can relate. I'm, I, My thing is that I'm just extremely nosy. So like, I just want to know everything about everybody and that's what I can't turn off. I'm, I do watch, but more, I'm always like, what's going on? Like, what's the tea?
- [13:31]
B
I'm curious too. I wouldn't say nosy. I mean, I know you don't want to be too nosy in prison. You probably don't want.
- [13:36]
A
Yeah, it's maybe a different vibe.
- [13:40]
B
Business here. But I am curious, right? I am curious about the human. I am curious. Like, dude, you going through what I'm going through? Like, are you thinking about that? I'm thinking, are you grappling with things that I grapple with? Like, so I am curious, right? When I'm sort of looking for my character that I, I saw Shane, I saw the conflict of his story personally. He's a gay man in prison. Let me just like explain this to the listeners. Like, like this is like the last frontier for like LGBT PQ rights that you've. That you don't even know about, right? And it's the compounded punishment of a man or whomever, right? They don't. It's not a safe place, right, to express that desires or anything like that. And you know, folks have this like misconception that we're all in here. Like maybe, like having said, that's not what's happening, at least not here. And what's happening is there's a lot of ostracizing. So I saw Shane as this Character that was right there, that was conflict. And then I learned that he was the first person Brooklyn tried to execute. Brooklyn prosecutors and really New York City prosecutors try to execute when Governor McKacky in the mid-90s brought back the death penalty. And what I saw was like a decent man. He had 50 to life. He had avoided the death penalty, but the plea, because you'll do that when to avoid the gallows. So what I saw was him, you know, teaching guys that were going home how to use Narcan, how to sort of get, you know, sort of prepare for release. And that was character on display. So I wanted, I wanted to know more about him. With Milton, I, Milton Jones, he, I met him also. I met Shane a few years before in 2017. I met Milton in 2019, and he was. He had just transferred down from Attica to Sing Sing because he had earned a bachelor's degree some years before when he'd been locked up since he's 17. So in 1987, he had killed two priests with his friend Teddy Simmons. So this is Milton Jones. And when I met him, it was. He had already been in prison 30 something years and he had finally gotten into the master's program because he had completed a bachelor's degree early on in his, in his sentence. And, and he, and he transferred to Sing Sing to pursue a master's degree. And I, and somebody told me about his, about his case, which was a little unusual. I didn't really want to meet him through his case, but that was the, that was the conflict there. And I was like, wow, like, that's complicated. I would like to talk to him. And I, you know, I learned more about him. And one of the themes with him, as with Shane, was sexuality. With Milton, it was like mental illness and religion, obviously, and forgiveness, frankly, that's something I gotta, I'm sure we'll talk about. And then lastly, it was Robert Chambers. Robert Chambers. I had met him when I left sing sing in 2020, and I met Robert Chambers when he was finishing up his stint for selling drugs after he had served 15 years for killing Jennifer Levitt in 1986. And he was like this true crime kind of celebrity, nothing that he ever wanted. And his story was really about identity. And the overarching theme with him was that it was about identity and the media telling him who he was and he just couldn't overcome it. And I related to that a bit because as I mentioned at the outset, my entry point to this book was like this, this dark side of the media that Was kind of like lied to me. I was just like, well, they could, they could just do that. They could just lie. Of course they should lie to you. You're nobody. Like, you're, you're, you're a murderer. You're the first person they could get over on. So, so. And there's no repercussions, right? Maybe until now, you know, so, so, so I related to, to, to Robbie in a very minimal way, right. But I related to that part of it, right? To being L. And he was kind of wiser than me in that way. He was just like, he was just like, oh, yeah, no, I don't, I don't even respond to them like, you know, that's not. I know what they want. But he did, you know, he did show me some grades and he said, and I hope. I like to think I showed him some grace too. But, but he said, but you, you do have a career. And, you know, and he admired that. And eventually I pitched it to him and I said, well, let me tell you a story with. And it may be in a way that other people can't see, other journalists can't see it. And he went for it. And that's how the character selection went down.
- [18:19]
A
I have a follow up question about the character selection, but I want to stick with this Robert Chambers thing just quickly, which is like, you know, obviously you are different than the majority of the media that Robert Chambers is dealing with, but in a lot of ways you are also the media. So I'm wondering like, if that tension, if you were feeling that tension, if he was feeling that tension of do I let this person in who has the potential to tell my story in a way that I can't control after years of having the story told, you know, so publicly?
- [18:52]
B
Of course. Yeah, I mean, it was, it. I mean, it goes on a vibe. You live with a man, you endure, you endure some of the same things. I think, I think there's a, there's a kind of like trust that goes into, that goes into, like you said, a pretty unusual situation. So I gotta talk to him like a, like a, like, just like a regular guy. Like we were just doing time and like I knew of him and I shared some articles with him. So he saw my style of writing.
- [19:21]
A
Right.
- [19:21]
B
You know, he was kind of, he wrote too. He shared with me like some of his, some of his writing that he would. He had, you know, recently, you know, written some essays which I actually thought was, was pretty. It wasn't bad. It was, it was, it was for his English class. And I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. I like how, you know, we were just. We were just two guys talking, you know, and eventually, you know, obviously after reading, you know, some of my stuff, and he actually took to a piece, the apology letter. This piece I had written, it's more of an essay about identity, about coming. It was about the process of writing an apology letter to the people that I've harmed, like the family of the man that I killed. And. Hold on a second. This is like. There's a lot going on right here. I should have. It's. This is a constant for me. So I'm like, imagine hosting a podcast with just like. Just, like chaos all around.
- [20:15]
A
Yeah. How do you, like, create a space for yourself to focus? Because, like, you know, writing a book is not something you can do completely. Like, what are, like, completely in chaos. Like, you do need time to think and focus. So what sort of practices or rituals or things do you have in place when it comes time to do your job? Whether it's a book or an article?
- [20:41]
B
Well, depending on how you look at it. It's the good news for a writer, probably bad news for a human, is that in New York State, we have a lot of time in ourselves. So you get up. I get up early. I meditate. That's my routine. I meditate, I drink, you know, I strain some coffee, and I get to it, you know, and morning hours are usually the time the noise still. You never really avoid the noise, so. But I have a good pair of headphones. I have a playlist now. Before that, I. I listen to, you know, cassettes. And I mean, I was just. You just get in your zone. I mean, it's sad to say, but my cell is my safe space, you know?
- [21:21]
A
Right. What's on the playlist?
- [21:23]
B
Oh, I have a little bit of everything. Well, they have, like, these tablets now, so it's. I don't know, I have. I'd like a little rock, little little dancers. Just stuff to get upbeat, stuff to reflect, stuff to get a little mushy, you know?
- [21:41]
A
Well, as I mentioned before, I'm super nosy. So these kind of questions, like what I'm about to ask you in about the playlist and stuff, is really, really what I'm here for. I'm interested in the books, but I'm really interested to know, you know, what you're listening to, all that stuff. But the other thing I always ask people, and you mentioned of coffee, are you. Do you have snacks when you're writing?
- [21:59]
B
Do I have snacks in my style?
- [22:01]
A
Yeah. Like, do you like, do you have snacks or like, like you said coffee. But like, I always ask people about snacks and beverages when they're writing their book. So I'm wondering if you've got snacks in there with you that you use as like, writing routine stuff.
- [22:13]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I come up for air and I, I try to figure out a meal. I try to stay away from snacks. I'm like, push, you know, But I, I indulge. I mean, we have a commissary and then we could get packages in prison. So. Yeah, I like pistachios and I like, I like black coffee bustello. I strain it through. There's like a rim of a peanut butter jar and like, there's no, like, strainers you could buy, so you have to like sew the handkerchief like around the peanut butter jar and then you boil the water. The best pastel is like when you boil the water in the hot pot and then it gets ready and you kind of like dish out your scoops of pastelo, like the grind espresso, coffee. And then you, you mix it, let it sit, and then you strain it through the. Like. When I'll come up for air for my writing, I'll make some gustellos, maybe nibble on some crackers or something. And later on, if my boy's cooking a meal, you have one minute left. I've already given him some food. Some guys have like makeshift stoves and pots, like, so we make it work so we don't have to go to the mess hall, you know, and eat. It's like real shitty, the food. I'll call you back that we met. You had that.
- [23:23]
A
Yeah, I heard it.
- [23:24]
B
Okay, cool.
- [23:25]
A
The caller has hung up. Hey friends, it's Tracy. So how have you been enjoying the podcast? Hopefully you're loving it. And if you are, you might want a little bit more of the Stacks. And I've got two places that you should check out to keep these bookish good vibes going. The Stacks Pack, which is my Patreon community. And you can find it@patreon.com the stacks. And my newsletter, which I call Unstacked, is over on Substack at Tracy Thomas substack. Com. Let me break it down for you. The Stacks Pack is where community lives. We're talking book club meetups, A private discord to chat books all day long. Our year long mega reading challenge to push your reading goals to the next level. Plus, members get a bonus episode every month. It's a great way to support my work and to connect with an awesome crew of readers over on Unstacked. I'm keeping the conversation going twice a week with posts that cover everything from my mini reviews and book rankings to pop culture hot takes and rants, plus whatever's on my tbr. There's also a free option over there so you can stay connected with me. So head to patreon.com thestacks and tracy thomas.substack.com to connect and meet with other book lovers and support this black woman run independent podcast. I can't wait to talk books with you. Nothing is scarier than starting a new business. I should know. I started the stacks like eight years ago and figuring out how to turn the logistics of everything into an actual business was overwhelming and pretty scary. Finding the right tool that can ease the stress is so important. Which is why I wanted to introduce you all to Shopify. Shopify helps millions of businesses, empowers 10% of all E commerce in the United States. So it's safe to say that they know I don't know a little something about business. Tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to analytics to payment. Plus get the word out about your business. Like a full marketing team is behind you with Shopify's built in marketing and email tools. And maybe you're not the most tech savvy. I get it. Shopify got your back with hundreds of ready to go templates to match your brand and your style. If you're ready to sell your you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com the stacks. Go to shopify.com the stacks shopify.com thestacks okay, welcome back. Okay, I wanna circle back quickly to my question about your subjects because obviously as you know and you talk about in the book, especially in the beginning, about sort of like the ways that true crime also like so often features like white people. So I'm curious, you know, you. You do end up having three white subjects in your book. So I'm wondering how much that weighed on you if you were hoping to find a way to include like more black or like Latino voices.
- [26:25]
B
Mm, I did. I had four characters in the book and one, two, three of them I went through. Three of them. I went through Danny. He was from the Bronx Multiple homicide. Real. I wanted like a real street life kind of like that I could relate to and usually that's you know, sort of low hanging fruit with like a lot of my friends in here that have similar, you know, kind of crimes as mine because, you know, when we think of Shane's, it's domestic. Rob is kind of impulsive and it's just, it's. It's a freakish kind of case. And Milton's was. He was young, black, but there was something going on in terms of like intellectual difficulties. I wanted like, I wanted just like just where I could sort of build out like how, how. How street life, you know, sort of affects or pushes us to sort of criminality. So I went through a bunch, I went through, I built out got this their stories. There was a lot of things in prison that you go through when you're select. So one. So sometimes like when I'm just sort of getting the story guy will transfer out Danny Transfer. Another friend of mine, Chino. He something like people that don't perhaps don't even realize. So he was involved with. You know, he was affiliated, but he was also. He had depth. But it was also like when his, when his crew found out that I was writing about him, it was like at a certain point they kind of like pushed up on me like a little bit like, yo, what's up? What are you gonna give him? Like these are things that most journalists like you, you probably wouldn't even imagine. Like just like. But yeah, you know, in maximum security prison. That's how, that's how it is. So it's just like. And then the last one was, was a. You know, there's another subject. My friend Joseph Sanchez, who actually I was mentoring him at the time like with writing and he's so smart. He had six feet alive bron. You know, young, you know, a homicide and an attempt. It was just happened finger snap fast, you know, and in the. In the Bronx and poof. Done 50 to life and. But so insightful. So so much promise and you know, so curious. Just like that revived so well and you know he eventually. He's recently been published in the New York Times. Joseph Sanchez, for folks who want to look it up. He published some other link to it.
- [28:55]
A
In the show notes for sure. So yeah find his stuff.
- [28:58]
B
So. And then he. And then it's structurally. It's just we realize with my editors is like, you know, your story. These stories are structurally going long and the flow of you know, it's like you make these decisions and it's like you're actually the street life guy. Like, like you. We, we have that from You. And it's just like, I'm wondering. And so I was going to replace, you know, but it was just like. So the race was. I needed. I couldn't have, you know, sort of diversity of race be my guiding, my. I had to go with the feel of my characters. Right. And the flow of the book after a while. But there are a lot of peripheral characters that are, you know, sort of diverse ethnicities. Like my friend Joseph Wilson, you know, like, dear friend of mine helped me write an apology letter. At times wiser and humbler than me, super talented, from. From Brownsville, Brooklyn, and is like, you know, he wrote an opera from prison, so pretty cool, dude. So, like, there's a lot of peripheral characters that are men of color.
- [30:04]
A
Yeah. This kind of book, like, just narratively, this, like, following three or four people in a world is, for me personally as a reader, is like, my favorite kind of book. And one of the reasons I love it is not just because you get to know the main people, but I also love the sort of peripheral characters who come in and kind of influence the story. And funnily enough, in your story, friend of this podcast, Reginald Dwayne Betts, shows up a few times, and I was like, oh, there's Dwayne. Like, I just love it. I like the, you know, six degrees of connection that we have with one another. So I do think like the peripheral characters. And I mean, I'm just a big Dwayne fan, as you are, obviously, as I read in the book.
- [30:46]
B
Yeah, for sure. And, I mean, I met Dwayne reviewing. It's like a poetry foundation, reached out to me in 2019 to. To review, you know, his book. And I. I had heard of Twain. I just read his New York Times Magazine piece, and I was like, wow, look at that. Like, and I, you know, And. And, you know, I wrote the piece about Fallon. You know, I was like, I don't really review poetry, though. They were just like, no, just tell us how you feel. And. And I was like. And it was just. It made me feel. That's for sure. And I wrote a. I wrote a piece there, and he reached out, and we just totally clicked. And, you know, and eventually he was like, what's up? You know, I'm trying to. I'm trying to get you out, you know, and. And from there, you know, it's been. It's just been a. It's just been a, you know, just a very close relationship we've had. And. And it's tough, and it's also heartbreaking. And, you know, because sometimes there's so many other factors with freedom, you know, politics. There's, you know, how the victim's family kind of responds. And I say that, you know, and I, And I keep saying victim. And I imagine some listeners are going to be like, you know, why doesn't he say his name? And, you know, like, so I remember in 2000, around the time maybe I met Dwayne, a little before that I wrote, I wrote that piece and watched it post about the process of trying to come to terms, to write an apology letter. And then his sister wrote a. Wrote a response letter and it was, you know, she didn't accept my apology and she was. She preferred that I not use the name in my writing. And, you know, I, you know, there's no script on this, right. And it's. I don't know. You know, I have a lot to say. But then when it comes to responding to questions about, like, what do you say to her that says you shouldn't write? Like, it's like, I. What do you. What did you say to that? Like, Like, I, I don't know what to say to that. Like. And, yeah, like, I've had really serious conversations about remorse and, and mercy and forgiveness and all this. The only. And, and if it wasn't on the page, it was with Wayne, frankly. And we vibe with that reading Paradise Lost together, right, By John Milton. And like, so I have grappled with that. And. But the. I guess the irony is the thing that maybe at times causes her pain is the only thing that helps me come to terms with what I did. Right. And if you want comp. I mean, I don't, I don't know what to do with that sometimes. But I do know that from writing there's been a lot of. Still a little positive spillover. And while some, you know, of my subject sickens, family members have spoken to me as you read in the book. And, you know, I just, I just appreciate that, Grace, you know, because, like, I'm going in and those are some of the hardest interviews. Right. Like, I remember my mentor, she. She asked me, she pressed me, like, you know, you have to like, like, you have to. You have to reach out. Like, here. You're a pretty crafty guy. Like, let's go. Like, so, so she pressed, you know, I mean, I was gonna do it, but it was just like, it was like stalling. And my editor too, had fellow Don. You know, it was just, it was just these. And it was very tough conversation. Some, Some. Some didn't get back. And like, you know, Chambers's mother and sister didn't, but his friend did. I'm sorry, Jennifer's friend.
- [34:18]
A
Right.
- [34:21]
B
With Shane's case, we tracked down the family. They didn't want, you know, sort of anything to do with the book and then with Milton's. It was this whole saga of actually like reporting out what happened and you.
- [34:34]
A
Know, because they had had a relationship over years and years. The family of one of his victims and a fellow, I guess a nurse. Not a nurse, a nun, had already connected with Milton long before you ever met him.
- [34:49]
B
Right, Ray. But. And he wrote a book about his brother. So, so, so one of the names, Father Joe Bisson, that from Buffalo, and his younger brother Rapis in that was. I mean, he just, you know, he just looked up to his brother and he was just devastated by the loss. The whole family was as you can imagine. And he just so tremendous. He just showed tremendous grace and came to see Milton after the trials and came to see also Teddy, Milton's co defendant throughout the years. And I read his book, Joe's Story by Ray Bissonnet, having a heartbreaking book. But then eventually that's what he was like, wow, that's cool. You wrote the book. You have to follow up now, see where he is. And then when I followed up, this story sort of unravels and I don't want to give it away too much, but.
- [35:40]
A
But yeah, don't give it away. No spoilers here.
- [35:43]
B
Yeah, there was a lot that unravels with that. But recently he read the book. We sent him some. My public.
- [35:48]
A
Oh, he did?
- [35:49]
B
Yeah, my publicist, Megan sent him the book and you know, like all she got, you know, she got a response from him and you know, he said, you know, this is an accurate rendering. And you know, he gave me grace and he wanted more copies for his, for his kids and, and, and he, and he, you know, it was. I just, you know, I just. Of all the sort of like, you know, I guess props you get for your writing ego or whatever. Like as a writer, you know, it's just, you know, just kind of get that grace from somebody that, you know, shares the harm that you caused another family, you know, it's parents.
- [36:32]
A
Yeah, I, I feel like one of the things that I hear you say and a lot or I'm hearing you say, and one of the things that obviously I picked up on so much in the book is that, you know, writing has been your way to kind of, as you said, grapple with this and, and work through what it means to have been a young person who took another young person's life and now to be like a real adult, a grown up and to grapple with all of that. And it sounds like so much of that grappling is. Is on your own, is of your own impetus. Like you. Your writing has led you through it. Your connecting with people has led you through it. And, you know, I think, I'm sure you agree there's a lot of huge problems with the American prison system. And one of them that you talk about a lot is like, that there isn't this rehabilitation, that there's no one outside of you when you're in prison who's saying, you need to work on this stuff. You need to find the. The tools to fix yourself, let alone saying, here are the tools that will provide you. So I'm wondering, like, while you're there and you're kind of growing and changing and evolving as we all do, what it's like, you know, seeing new people come in and like, what it's like for you watching folks who are so far away from where, you know, you've sort of grown to. And Shane also has kind of a similar story to you in the sense that he really sort of has this evolution throughout the book and he gains perspective and he, you know, there's this kind of change. And I think in some ways you two represent maybe like, what people who believe in prisons would be like. See, look, you can be rehabilitated, but in a lot of ways that's not because of the prisons. It feels like it's maybe in a. In spite of them and also because of the perspective that you've gained through the work that you do. And so that's sort of not really a question, but I'm just curious to hear you talk about that.
- [38:29]
B
I appreciate the question, though. I mean, I mean, yeah, there's not a lot of offerings. And then when you do, when you do find yourself, and as Shane did, and yeah, I would say many men do, there isn't a lot of, like, sort of validation for that. Right. Especially in New York. It depends on where, depending on where you're at. Like, I think there is some acknowledgment of that. Like, ironically, you know, a federal judge last year, I reviewed his book, Judge Block, Second Chance. You know, he's an Eastern District judge. I reviewed his book and he's in the feds. He's letting guys go and the feds under the first step back because he. Because that the first step act ironically that Trump signed gives him discretion to give guys another chance. Like. Like, these guys. These are some. He's giving grace to some serious gangsters. Like, guys that I looked up to from my neighborhood when I was young and dopey and just wanted to be a. Was a wannabe, right? And I'm just like, my God, this is, like, arbitrary. Like. Like, I, I. So as you can imagine, I'm a little perplexed with the politics of everything in this nation.
- [39:33]
A
Yeah, I mean, same. I think we. Everyone listening is. We're all nodding our heads.
- [39:38]
B
Yeah. So. And he actually, when I've reviewed. He wrote a letter to the Washington Post and published it. Like, man, if this guy was in the feds, I'd let him out tomorrow. Like, this is ridiculous. Like, New York should pass the law. Like, so when you get stuff like that and then. And then you get total indifference from everybody in your administration of your. Of the prison where you are. I have to say, I do give credit where credit is due. The new commissioner in New York, Daniel Marticello, a couple years ago, he gave me a. He gave me a creative writing workshop when he was appointed the job. But that prison closed. You know, New York's had some trouble since then, and, you know, that's when I was sort of mentoring Joe and several other guys. You know, seven of nine of the men in that workshop got published in just four months. When Megan Popsko, my publicist, and I were sort of, like, working with these guys, I would develop the stories in the workshop, send them out to her. You know, we'd help them get published. I mean, I mean, really, really great stuff like that. When you get published in prison, you feel like your voice matters. And I was just. It was just an awesome experience. You know, I give him his credit for enabling that to happen. You know, but just speaking to your larger question, you know, so once in a while, you get, you know, you get a few green lights. But. But, yeah, generally, this is. It's a. It is in spite of it. Like, you frame your question. It's. It's. And then when I see the young guys coming in, it's weird, right? Like, I came in young and so naive and. And then you, you know, like, I'm graying and, you know, you see my vanity in the book. You're like, I'm asking, like, oh, yo, how old do I look like? It's just like you, like, oh, you look like. You look like 40. Like, 48 years old. That's like, really? So it's just. It's just humbling to, like, to be here so long, and then, like, I talk to these guys and, and, and. And they, and they caught. They're like, they're like, yo, OG or like, I'm just like, man, fight that now. I'm like, I'm OG in it. Like, like, and. But they. It's. It's interesting, but, like, the hunger that they all have to want something more, though, you know, even dudes that are banging. I had a conversation with a kid the other day, and he's all caught up, but he's like, yo, how'd you do it? Like, how'd you do the time? You know, and we have sometimes. Sometimes you get it like a little, and they're trying to figure it out, and they're at that stage where they'. I got a really good appeal issue, though. And, and, and. And. And the wise part of you that knows that, that, that the appeal is such a long shot, like, dude, you're gonna probably do that time. It's like, 99. You're gonna do that time. If the judge said you're gonna do. And you don't, like, you don't even have the. Like, you just feel bad telling them that, but you kind of, like, let them down. Like, you don't. But then you kind of like, shift it to, like, well, if you have to do. I mean, I would. I would take advantage of these, like, these college programs because, you know, when I came to prison, I called it the lost generation. I came to prison in early 2000, and we were still suffering from that bill that Biden penned. And there was nothing in prison. Like, there was nothing.
- [42:47]
A
Right. That's when they got rid of all the Pell Grants and everything, right?
- [42:50]
B
1994 crime bill. You have no Pell Grants. He had no programs that affected the states. That was like, it was bad. It was just like, there was nothing going on in New York State, and it was just packed and it was wild. And, you know, it was like, I was just in the. In the wildest prison in the state, you know, arguably in America and Attica, where I just found this writing workshop at the time. So sometimes I share those stories with. I was like, yo, like, there's opportunities here, and you just got to try to find them. And sometimes they're right next to you. Sometimes you just got to come up under the wing of somebody that's going to show you, show you the ropes, and it ain't your big homie. It ain't the dude that's going to Tell you like, yo, come down with my set and, and put that work in and go clap this dude. Go shoot this. You know, go stab this one. You know, like, don't, don't aspire to that, you know. But it's hard to tell them that.
- [43:44]
A
And I'm sure it was probably would have been hard for someone to tell you that too at the start. Right. Like that it takes like some time kind of to, to get to a place where you can even hear some of that stuff as it does with all of us when we're going through anything. Right. It's like you think.
- [44:02]
B
Yeah.
- [44:03]
A
You think you could do it.
- [44:04]
B
I think these are drive by conversations. So I, I think he will receive it. But it's just if, yeah, we had the space. Like you say like make space terminology in that world out there. Like, like there's no space. There's no making space in here. That's the problem. Yeah. Makes make space in your cell. Like that's what you go, go to go lock in. Like that's, that's where you make space. You got to sturdy up, you know, mentally, emotionally. And it's tough and you know, that's why 50 of the population is. I'm on a company right now. I'm on a tier right now. It's actually a privileged tier. It's, it's a, it's a like, like a lieutenant was. Showed me grace and moved me over here, you know, so there's a lot of guys on a tier that are sort of seriously, you know, they suffer from serious mental illness, but they put guys that kind of have their act together, that kind of show them some grace. Right. You know what I mean? You see a guy. So that they mix them with some of us that they're on, they're in a step down sort of fear here. And I could sort of go to their, you know, like, kind of see how they're living, maybe help them clean their cell a bit and you know, just, just try to, just try to be decent for them. Yeah.
- [45:15]
A
Yeah, totally. I think one of the things in the book that I thought was really interesting and I'm just going to read it so that folks can hear you're talking about these like extreme sentences and, and over the years, you know, the ways that judges and prosecutors have maybe been more receptive to kind of giving folks who are, you know, guilty of crimes second chances. And you have this part that you quote, you, you're quoting Zidman and he says the whole innocence movement has done a lot of unintentional damage if you're not innocent. It's like, we don't give a about you. Even though the biggest problem about mass incarceration is massive sentences. And I thought that was really interesting because I think so many people are just like, well, if you did it, you deserve the punishment. Even though the punishments are just insane and so long and so cruel and just so they're antithetical to the idea that rehabilitation is the goal. Right? Like, that's the lie that the criminal justice quote, unquote system tells us is that it's all about rehabilitation when there's no services or not a lot of services, and there's no opportunity for people to show that they're, that they have been rehabilitated if that, if that's the goal, you know. And I'm just curious, like, what you make of all of that.
- [46:36]
B
Yeah, I don't write about innocent people because I can't. I hook. I write about people where I can relate to them. I can't relate to you, bro. Like, I don't. And there's always that base, like that, there's always that space where. And I have to say, like, a lot, a lot of folks are lying, you know, about that because again, there's nowhere to sort of come, come clean. And they, and it's not that they're like bad people because they're lying about what they did. No, no. When you're like, like 18 years old and you have 50 years to life and you go to the library and Attica and the old time, you know what the old timer says, you know, you don't admit guilt because you cannot get any, you can't get any rhythm on your appeals. So the whole system is set up to never be accountable. Right? And I just knew, I never wanted to live like that because deep down I wanted to just, just, just, just be real about it. Just be like, damn, man. And I wanted to figure out, like, what of it. All, right? So I'll never write about a so called innocent man because that's not. I can't. I write about people that I could hook into the things that grapple with. And I just find that the guilty man more interesting, right? Because there's this truth and there's this heavy truth that you have to grapple with, right? Because of some of the things that you mentioned, right? And that's why all my characters are guilty. And you know, I don't. That's not, that's not where I go. And. But yeah, Steve, you mentioned Steve Diamond. I mean, this guy's a rock star in New York. You know, he's just. He's gotten more people out on nuanced post conviction motions than. And then anybody I know. Like. And he's taken the tough cases, like. And, you know, when you think about it through the lens of story, too, Tracy, like, of course it's easy to come in and root for. Like, we got here through serial, right. Through a wildly popular show, and it's just like. And she's taking you through this. And she's. And she's taking the audience through this sort of nebulous space of the unknown. Like, did he do it? Didn't he do it? And it's like, it's great storytelling, don't get me wrong.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah.
- [48:42]
B
Like, I'm like, I don't. I don't really know. I mean, but. But. But it fits the mold of a traditional story rubric, right? Sympathy, like what I started with sympathetic character comes. I mean, of course people are going to root for you if the system screwed you. Trying to overcome the system is the antagonist, and it is a antagonist. It's a shitty one. So, yeah, root for the guy who says, you know, turns out he may not be innocent, but. But a lot of the time. But. But what? You know, like, that's. That's just. That's just where people are at. Like, they want to, like, like, they, like. I mean, I just find. I just find the guilty man more interesting. I'm not gonna sort of get on my soapbox.
- [49:22]
A
Yeah, no, I hear you. I. I'm also curious a little bit about how you think about audience, how you think about your readers, knowing, you know, that so often, like, your experiences are going to be totally different from them, and they're gonna. They might not have any, you know, ways to really relate to you on. Like, they might not feel like they can. Right. Like, there's so many people that I think are so disconnected from the prison system that they feel as if someone who's locked up is, you know, might as well be on Mars. Like, there's. They would never. They could never. And so I'm wondering how you. You are sort of thinking about that, not just with this book, but when you're writing in these publications, like, are you thinking about your reader a lot, or are you sort of just like, I'm John, I'm gonna do my shit, and if you with me, you with me? And if not, like, okay, I mean.
- [50:12]
B
I think there's a little bit of that. I don't I don't write for the audience. I, I, I, I write for the story, right? And I, and I think I try to leave my truth on the page. I think there's like, I think, I think there's like certain times I'm aware of the art. Like, I think the tone like, that I'll strike sometimes, like if I'm writing with my editor, Emily Greenhouse at the New York Review of Books. Like, she's like, you know, she'll be, she'll like, okay, tone it down a bit. Like, you know, like, it's not, there's not meant, like, you know, so I think there's like an awareness in terms of your rhetorical situation, which I think of any writer has to sort of gauge. But I try not to write for it for, you know, I write for me and I try to build worlds. And I am you know, keeping in mind, like, I try to build this world and try to show it to y' all and just the best I can. But like, I'm not ready for the criminal justice reform audience. I'm not, I mean, I'd say in the book, like, like, like I'm not doing none of that. I'm not doing the whole criminal legal, I'm not doing the criminal legal system. I'm not doing formerly incarcerated person. I'm not doing, you know, currently incarcerated. I think those terms are like super clunky and it's, it doesn't make for good writing. And I, and I just not, I'm just not going to use it. And, and I could do that like, because, like I'm in here and, and that's it. Like, and I'm gonna do it and, and, and just because that's not how we talk in here. You know what I mean? And that's just, and that's just. And if I'm going to build these worlds, I'm going to give it to you how, how we live it. And so, yeah, I'm not gonna sort of try to conform and sometimes I get a little pushback, you know, from that or just like, But I don't really like, you know, I'm just, I think you have to just develop your own voice as a writer and no shots to those that do adhere to that. I think there's a reason for that. But as somebody that is a narrative driven, you know, nonfiction writer, you know, a first person journalist that is building worlds, I think it's important to use, to use, you know, the language of the world. Right. So.
- [52:14]
A
Right.
- [52:14]
B
Yeah. I try not to get Sort of influenced by, you know, my audience too much.
- [52:20]
A
Is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was?
- [52:23]
B
I don't know. I think I left it on the. I kind of left it all on the page for this. For these stories. You know, look, this is not a memoir. This is not my story. I think this. There's tidbits of my story in there and perhaps more than fidbits, but I think. I don't think this is a memoir of me. I think you get enough of me to sort of move the stories along of the others, you know, so anything that sort of. That's not. Maybe that's just an idea for the next book. It's also just kind of gauging getting out, too. Like, man, if I'm getting out, I should write this book. Cause I could go to these places and write this and write that. And then it's just like, I don't know if I'm getting out next year or, like, there's a few irons in the fire, you know? So, yeah, I don't know what my next project's going to be because, like, I guess my freedom's up in the air, right? But I'll figure something out. I've been. Yeah, there is something that I did put in the book, I guess, an inverse to that question that I kind of like, you know, when it comes out, you're just kind of leaving it all on the page because it's all about your truth. Then when it does come out, and it's just like, oh, these guys are ordering this book in here. And it's just like, there's so much anxiety with, like, some of. Some of your truth you left on, like, the page. Like, for example, like, you know, like, I. I talk about when I was younger, like, sexual experiences I had. I was in, like, Shane's chapter, and I guess a part of it for the book. I was just trying to, like, stand at the ledge with him. Because here's this guy he comes to then, you know, homosexual. I mean, he just come to prison. He's just lived like that and been rejected his whole life because of his sexuality, right? But then, like, I' Right here. Here I am writing about him, but I got my own secret. So, like. And I leave that on the page, right? Because I think it's actually relevant to his story. I want to stand at the ledge, at the edge with him. And I also. And I also think it's kind of like this. This chip that I had on my shoulder, too, when I was like in this like tough guy, drug dealing lifestyle that I had like these secrets and I was like so fearful of being found out about these secrets that I had about, you know, some experiences when I was younger. And yeah, like a 48 year old version of me today. It's just like, oh, so what? Like, you know what I mean, just leave it on the page, you know, but when you, but then you realize, oh, I'm still in this, this environment, like, you know what I mean? This subculture that's just, that's like that, that judges you, you know, and like, like that's what I'm going through now. I'm just like, oh God, I can read that. I'm like, like, so I was a guy in the yard be like, yo, what's up bro? You know, I told my people to order the book and I was like, oh yeah, that's cool, like, let me read about this. Like. And I think, I think people like, maybe in, in your circle, like, I mean like, they'll be like, oh, so what? Like, like, like cool bro, like you, you were vulnerable, like. But yeah, it's not that, it's not that simple. It's not, it's really, it's really not that simple when you live in this world.
- [55:26]
A
Yes, no, I hear what you're saying. Okay, So I have to ask you just a few questions that I ask everybody and then, and then we'll get out of here. And one of them is, what's a word that you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [55:39]
B
I came across one the other day. Conscientious.
- [55:42]
A
Oh, good one.
- [55:45]
B
I wasn't really my word. It was a friend of mine, I was helping him with his clemency personal statement and we were going back and forth. He was like, conscience, like I can't. How do you. I was like, well shit, you stopped me too. But I, but we figured it out.
- [56:00]
A
That's a hard one. I don't think I could do it. One of the things that you talk a lot about like at the end, like in your author's note or after, I think it's an author's note is about like the process of writing the book. And normally I ask a lot of questions about that, but I really want folks to go and read it and hear like the multi step effort that it took for you to write and the word limit on the tablet. And Megan, your publicist who you've mentioned, who's actually how we're talking today, she's patching you through to Me and your assistant and all the people that you had to rely on in order to tell this story. I think it's just, like, it's so important for people to read that part of the book. So, folks, when you read it, make sure you read that. The author's note. But one of the things you mention is that in addition to being your fantastic publicist and sort of this team member with you, Megan also sent you some books. And I'm just curious, like, what books was Megan sending you? What are you reading? What books are you into? I know you mentioned John Krakauer, who is my A1. I love that man. Never met him, never talked to him. But I've just. He's my fave. So I'm curious. Like, what stuff are you reading?
- [57:06]
B
Oh, right now. What am I reading? I'm reading Tom Wolf's the Right Stuff. Megan and I actually get to read that. We read Victim together.
- [57:19]
A
Okay.
- [57:19]
B
So we're always. We Bonfire vanities together. She's like, it's never really together because she's like a, like a really good reader. I'm like, like a learning disability with reading, and I have to, like, push that ironically. But I, I, I, you know, so I'm a slow reader and meticulous, but we. She. She hooks me up with all the classes. So, like, I have like a, you know, sort of stack of. Of. I mean, I have. I wish I was doing this interview with myself on this ear, but I have Norman Naylor's collection of essays. That's, like, one of my favorite. Go to books. I think it's. I forget the titles of it.
- [58:05]
A
I'll find it. I'll link it.
- [58:07]
B
Yeah, but there's. There's, like, mainstays. And then, of course, the Journalist and the Murderer by Janet Malcolm. That is, like, these are books that I return to, like, all the time.
- [58:18]
A
Yeah.
- [58:18]
B
Like, I'm a craft geek. So, like, Vivian Gornick's the. The Situation and the Story. John Franklin's Writing for Story. These are, like, books that, like, are very accessible. Like, Hands Reach Away From Me, Jack Hart's Storycraft. These are. These are all books that, like, if you're a writer or aspiring writer, I would encourage you to get those books. And they're not, like, they're not, like, cooking me up to, like, to, like, say this. So those are, like, the best books.
- [58:50]
A
Okay, I love that. Here's my last question for you. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [58:59]
B
Norman Mailer.
- [59:00]
A
Okay. Why?
- [59:02]
B
Because I think he showed grace to someone, to Jack Henry Abbott, and I think he got his heart broken with that. With that relationship. And. And you know what? You know, when I wrote about Jack Henry Abbott in the New York Review of Books, I was hard on him, too, you know, because I resented that, like, every time, like. Like, Like. Like, they. Like, you know, they. They always bring him up with me. It's like, bro, like, what the. You know, so for folks that know, Jack Henry Abbott built this relationship with Norman Miller and helped. Nor Miller helped get him out in 1980, and he. In six weeks, he killed him. And random. I mean, not a random man. A decent. You know, Richard Adam was his name. He was a restaurant manager in downtown. And Abbott stabbed him just because he just was bottled with anger. And. And he broke Abbott's and he broke Baylor's heart, and he broke the literary community's heart. And I guess I just. I don't know, I want him to know that. That. That. That. That, you know, that there's others out there, and we're. We're. You know, we're worth it, you know?
- [60:17]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great answer. Well, everybody at home, you can get the tragedy of true crime, four Guilty Men, and the Stories that Define Us by John J. Lennon. Wherever you get your books, it is out in the world. As you're listening to this, John and Megan, thank you both so much for making this happen. This was amazing.
- [60:34]
B
Oh, thank you, Tracy. It was fun talking to you.
- [60:37]
A
And thanks for having us, of course, and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to John J. Lennon for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Megan Posco, Emily Riddell, and Christine McKinnison for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for October is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 29th with Angela Flournoy. If you love the Stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks review, listen to your podcasts, and if you listen through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stats, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok plus, we are now on YouTube at @ the Stacks Pod as well. Catch video clips of these episodes and always you can find everything you need at our website, the stackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wykea Frillo and Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help.
- [62:09]
B
Did you know you can get matched.
- [62:10]
A
With credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores. Experian.