The Stacks, Ep. 393: "A Guilty Man Is More Interesting" with John J. Lennon

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: John J. Lennon, prison journalist and author of The Tragedy of True Crime: Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us
Release Date: October 8, 2025

Overview

This episode features a revelatory conversation between host Traci Thomas and incarcerated journalist/author John J. Lennon, whose new book upends the true crime genre by centering the nuanced, deeply human stories of four men—himself included—convicted of murder. Lennon, currently serving a life sentence, discusses why he felt compelled to write from inside the prison system, the challenges and responsibilities of depicting the fully lived realities of people behind bars, and the critical difference between writing about the guilty versus the innocent. The episode balances hard discussions on justice, redemption, and remorse with candid glimpses into Lennon’s writing life inside prison.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Motives for Writing a Different Kind of True Crime

• Lennon describes his book as “first-person journalism” that rejects typical sensational true crime in favor of nuanced humanization:
  • “I see this book as less of a true crime critique … and more of just like a story in which characters, including my own, can become accessible in ways that they have never before been.” (03:19)
• He didn’t set out to write a “true crime book”—he saw the genre as “cheesy” and “not an accurate depiction” but was sought out by the media because of his unique position as a writer in prison. (04:51)
• Lennon’s entry into journalism stemmed from a need for “a voice from the inside”:
  • “…around 2013… I joined a creative writing workshop and took to first-person journalism… I saw a need for a voice from the inside…” (05:59)

Humanization Without Minimization

• Traci asks about the balance between humanizing incarcerated people and not minimizing the harm of their crimes:
  • Lennon: “I try to be fully responsible and fully accountable for what I did. I think that's the place where we all start… when it came to the experience, I'm always writing about my experiences, right? Something will bother me, and I'll turn to the page to sort it out, because that's all I really have.” (08:14)
• The book intentionally introduces readers to the men as people first and reveals their crimes later, to cultivate empathy and understanding before judgment. (10:00)
• Lennon weaves his own story alongside his subjects, “illuminat[ing] the dark spaces that folks can't see… not to romanticize, but to understand something more, like what were my desires?” (10:53)

Selecting Subjects and Characters

• Lennon watched for “character on display,” choosing men he observed in daily life—not just their crimes:
  • “If you're watching action, not just listening, but watching action, which I have the opportunity to do as an immersive journalist… I live with these guys.” (11:48–13:00)
• Each subject represented different sources of conflict and thematic material:
  • Shane: a gay man in prison, facing ostracization—“the last frontier for LGBTQ rights.” (13:39)
  • Milton Jones: Black man who killed two priests as a teen—his themes: “mental illness, religion… forgiveness.” (14:23)
  • Robert Chambers: whose story was manipulated by the media (“true crime celebrity”)—theme: “identity, and the media telling him who he was and he just couldn't overcome it.” (16:33)

Trust, Tension, and Writing from Inside

• Lennon discusses the complicated trust dynamic interviewing other incarcerated men, especially someone like Chambers, long dogged by media misrepresentation.
  • “It goes on a vibe… you live with a man, you endure some of the same things… there's a kind of trust that goes into, like you said, a pretty unusual situation.” (18:51)

The Writing Life Behind Bars

• Routine: Early rising, meditation, strong Bustelo coffee filtered through a hand-sewn strainer, writing during quietest hours despite constant chaos.
  • “It's sad to say, but my cell is my safe space.” (21:20)
  • Snacks: “Pistachios and black coffee… bustelo… crackers…” (22:13)
• Lennon credits creative writing workshops (rare but transformative) and support from publicist/ally Megan for helping him persist.

True Crime & Race in the Genre

• On the difficulty of including more Black or Latino primary subjects, despite intention—prison logistics and structural realities intruded:
  • “I wanted like a real street life kind of [character]… I went through a bunch, I built out their stories… sometimes like when I'm just sort of getting the story, guy will transfer out…” (26:24–28:54)
  • Integral, nuanced portraits of peripheral characters of color still make their way into the book, even if the main arcs focus on three white men.

On Remorse, Victims' Families, and the Limits of Grace

• Moving discussion of what it means to “come clean” within a system structurally resistant to genuine remorse and accountability:
  • “Nobody that works for corrections has ever asked, like, what do you do with what you did?... the only thing that helps me come to terms with what I did [is writing].” (08:14, 34:03)
  • Cites heartbreaking but respectful communications with a victim’s sister, respecting her wish that he not use her brother’s name. (32:00–34:18)
• Lennon details the challenge and emotional labor of reaching out to victims’ families for the book, sometimes receiving grace, other times silence—“some of the hardest interviews.” (34:03–36:32)

On American Prison, Rehabilitation & Recidivism

• Lennon and Traci reflect on the myth of carceral rehabilitation:
  • “There isn't a lot of… validation for [personal growth], right, especially in New York… generally, this is… in spite of [the prison system].” (38:29–39:38)
  • Recounts mentoring other prisoners in writing—“when you get published in prison, you feel like your voice matters.” (39:38–41:00)
• On young men entering prison: “It's interesting, but the hunger that they all have to want something more… and they're trying to figure it out… you just got to try to find [opportunities], and sometimes they're right next to you.” (42:00–43:42)

The “Guilty Man is More Interesting” Ethos

• Lennon addresses the cultural bias toward innocence in criminal justice reform and true crime narratives:
  • “I don't write about innocent people because I can't… I just find the guilty man more interesting… Because there's this truth and there's this heavy truth that you have to grapple with.” (46:35–48:41)
• Criticism of how the innocence movement sidesteps the mass of incarcerated people who admit guilt—calls for focus on those “with the longest sentences” and the need for mercy, not just exoneration. (45:14–48:41)

Audience, Language, and Authenticity

• Lennon is adamant about writing for authenticity, not for a reform-minded or “outside” audience:
  • “I'm not ready for the criminal justice reform audience… I'm going to build these worlds… and I'm going to give it to you how we live it.” (50:12–52:13)

Vulnerability and “Leaving it on the Page”

• He discusses the risk and necessity of personal vulnerability—especially when writing about sexuality in a hyper-masculine environment:
  • “…I talk about when I was younger, like sexual experiences I had… I want to stand at the ledge with [Shane]. ...It's not that simple… when you live in this world.” (52:19–55:25)

On Mentors, Reading, and Literary Heroes

• Lennon names Norman Mailer as the one person he’d most want to read his book—a symbolic request for understanding that “there are others out there, and we're worth it, you know?" (58:58–60:17)
• Go-to craft books: The Journalist and the Murderer (Janet Malcolm), Vivian Gornick’s The Situation and the Story, John Franklin’s Writing for Story, Jack Hart’s Storycraft. (58:18–58:50)
• Currently reading: Tom Wolfe’s The Right Stuff, Norman Mailer's essays.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of “rehabilitation”:
  “In 24 years, you know, nobody that works for corrections has ever asked, like, what do you do with what you did?” —John J. Lennon (08:14)
• On who his stories are for:
  “I write for me and I try to build worlds… if I'm going to build these worlds, I'm going to give it to you how, how we live it.” —Lennon (50:12–52:13)
• On the persistent difference between “innocent” and “guilty” stories:
  “I just find the guilty man more interesting, right? Because there's this truth and there's this heavy truth that you have to grapple with.” —Lennon (48:41)
• On grace and vulnerability:
  “I want [Norman Mailer] to know… that there's others out there, and we’re… worth it, you know?” —Lennon (59:02–60:17)
• On life as a writer in prison:
  “It's sad to say, but my cell is my safe space, you know?” —Lennon (21:20)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 03:19: Lennon on the approach of his book—“journalistic, not typical true crime”
• 08:14: Holding space for guilt and victims
• 11:48: Approach to selecting subjects/characterization
• 13:39–16:33: Introduces his three main subjects: Shane, Milton, Robert
• 21:20: Daily writing routine in prison—cell as “safe space”
• 26:24: On race, character selection, and prison logistics
• 34:03: Compassion, apology letters, and the cost of writing for healing
• 38:29: Rehabilitation as myth and the struggle for growth
• 42:00: Advice and perspective for younger prisoners
• 46:35: Critique of innocence-based reform and the value of guilty stories
• 50:12: Audience, language, and writing for authenticity
• 52:19: Vulnerability with stories of sexuality and “leaving it on the page”
• 58:58: Norman Mailer as ideal reader; importance of literary grace

Tone

John J. Lennon’s voice is introspective, grounded, and unwaveringly candid. Traci Thomas provides empathetic but probing questions that draw out the intricacies and contradictions of writing—and surviving—as an incarcerated person. The conversation is heavy yet laced with hope, humor, and an insistence on the fullness of all human stories.

Conclusion

John J. Lennon’s appearance on The Stacks offers a bracingly honest, complex look at life, redemption, remorse, and meaning behind bars. This episode challenges listeners to rethink true crime—not as tales of monsters or martyrs, but as thorny, lived realities where growth, pain, and possibility exist side by side. If you’re interested in stories that resist easy answers, this is an essential listen.

Recommended Reading:

• The Tragedy of True Crime: Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us by John J. Lennon
• The Journalist and the Murderer by Janet Malcolm
• The Situation and the Story by Vivian Gornick
• Writing for Story by John Franklin
• Storycraft by Jack Hart

Next Stacks Book Club Pick:

• Frankenstein by Mary Shelley (discussion on Oct 29, 2025 with Angela Flournoy)

For show notes, John J. Lennon’s publications, and more, visit thestackspodcast.com.