The Stacks Ep. 394: "Wildfires Are a Systemic Issue"
Guest: Jordan Thomas
Host: Traci Thomas
Date: October 15, 2025
Episode Overview
In this powerful episode of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes wildland firefighter and anthropologist Jordan Thomas to talk about his debut, When It All Burns: Fighting Fire in a Transformed World. Jordan’s memoir blends frontline experience with anthropological analysis, centering the human and systemic dimensions behind the escalating wildfires in California and the American West. The conversation digs into climate change, federal policy, Indigenous land stewardship, the labor and mental health crises among wildland firefighters, and how these interconnected issues merge on the fireline.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Jordan's Path to Becoming a Hotshot (03:14–07:32)
- Jordan describes his "serendipitous" entry into wildland firefighting, sparked by a research interest and a desire to connect with California after moving there.
- “I started fighting fires… as a way for me to stay outside and get involved in California and get to understand California's people and places.” (05:22)
- Expected municipal firefighting (hoses, fire trucks), but was thrust into “chainsaw, racing up mountains” territory—an introduction to the elite Hotshots culture.
- Anthropological curiosity fueled meticulous note-taking, but Jordan had no initial literary ambitions or industry connections.
The Genesis of the Book & Literary Break (08:09–09:55)
- A friend’s small magazine commission and a splashy wildfire article led literary agents to reach out.
- “A year later, on the very last day that I was a Hotshot, I started getting emails from a couple different literary agents in New York.” (09:04)
Ethics and Writing Embedded Nonfiction (10:57–15:41)
- Grapples with being an observer and participant: How do you ethically portray comrades? Do you speak for them or use them to tell a story?
- “What was most important to me as the book was coming out was the proximal feedback… starting with my crew members, starting with the people who are in my book…” (14:07)
- Discusses efforts to use feedback loops with the community and wrestling with how to translate Hotshot community experience for outsiders (“mental health” vs. community language).
Life as a Hotshot—The Surprises & Expertise (16:14–18:47)
- Surprised by how normalized extreme proximity to fire becomes for crews.
- “You can just be hanging out with fire burning around you… That implies this level of knowledge and expertise that people have in these spaces…” (16:14)
- Gaining intuitive, embodied expertise is central, though Jordan humbly notes his time (one season) is nothing compared to veterans.
The Politics & Perceptions of Federal Firefighters (18:56–21:26)
- Distinguishes federal Hotshots from municipal firefighters: Hotshots are “forestry technicians,” not even classified federally as firefighters.
- “If you're opposing public lands, one of the ways to do that is to oppose compensation for public servants, of which Hotshots are.” (20:36)
What the Public Gets Wrong about Wildfires (21:26–23:34)
- Most people see all fire as bad, but California's ecosystems need certain types of fire to thrive.
- “It's really hard to innovate your way out of systemic issues… these massive wildfires we're seeing are manifestations of systemic issues…” (21:26, 23:20)
- Historical roots: colonial fire suppression, exclusion of Indigenous knowledge, corporate logging, and climate change have together produced today’s crisis.
(AD BREAK, skipped as requested)
On Being a White Anthropologist in Indigenous Environmental Spaces (26:42–29:33)
- “There's a really troubling history of white anthropologists like myself telling the story of Indigenous people on their behalf in ways that don’t represent them…”
- Tension: Not telling these stories erases important histories; telling them risks perpetuating harm.
- Jordan details his approach: seeking direct input, conversations, and permission from tribal members.
Suggested Indigenous Readings (29:47–30:39)
- Robin Wall Kimmerer, Braiding Sweetgrass
- Kat Anderson, Tending the Wild
Policy and the Federal Firefighting Crisis (30:59–34:43)
- Impact of political shifts—Trump presidency leads to mass layoffs and decimated mitigation programs.
- “Half of California's land is federal land… what happened with the Trump administration was… Elon Musk back in January, which resulted in an enormous amount of firefighters being laid off…” (31:38)
- “We’re moving through increasingly intense fire seasons with decreasing capacity to suppress fires and even less capacity to mitigate them…” (33:00)
Big Money, Politics, and Climate Denial (35:54–41:53)
- Explains the Koch brothers' orchestrated campaign to politicize and polarize climate change.
- “It is also another dynamic of talking about politics in a way that makes people uncomfortable because you are saying that… climate denial is a Republican phenomenon…” (36:44)
- Outlines decades of coordinated disinformation, comparing it to the tobacco and asbestos industries.
- “There is this playbook… to really mix up science and confuse people…” (38:46)
- Rhetorical strategies have shifted (e.g., from outright denial to “it’s happening, but it’s not urgent”).
Physical and Mental Toll of Firefighting (43:14–51:04)
- Grueling recruitment: “You have to go into the job with basically an Olympic level of athletic stamina…” (43:14)
- Outfits are minimal, scant protection from extreme heat: “You’re in cargo pants, a T-shirt, and boots.” (45:05)
- Describes becoming intimately attuned to hydration, nutrition, and heat—akin to elite athletes.
- “There is something… so intimate… you are so attuned to your hydration based on the texture of your sweat…” (46:34)
- Mental health struggles: constant adrenaline, sleep disruption, anxiety triggers long after the season.
- “The sounds of two-stroke engines like leaf blowers just spike adrenaline. And this is a common experience…” (49:10)
- Raises need for structural changes (e.g., more rest days, bigger crews) and the severe mismatch between danger and compensation.
Structural Solutions and Hope (56:01–58:16)
- Despite grim realities, Jordan voices hope in grassroots action—prescribed burn associations, mutual aid, and revived Indigenous practices.
- “I think the things that people are doing to try to prevent wildfires in California… are just such promising spaces… There’s so much levity in the community…” (56:01, 56:11)
- Local action gives people agency and resilience even as broader political change is vital.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On Systemic Causes and Real Solutions
“It’s really hard to innovate your way out of systemic issues. These massive wildfires we're seeing are manifestations of systemic issues… what does it take to get our landscapes back to a point where they'll be resilient against climate change? It means investing in people.”
— Jordan Thomas (00:00, 21:26, repeated and expanded at 23:20)
On Expertise and Unrecognized Skill
“The level of physical athleticism it takes to do this job alone makes it its own form of expertise.”
— Jordan Thomas (47:31)
On the Ethics of Representing Others
“Are you letting them tell the story or are you sort of using them in a different way… working to make sure you're representing people in the way that they want to be represented, questioning why you're representing them in this way, and just trying to not do people any harm.”
— Jordan Thomas (11:47)
On Climate Denial’s Origins
“Climate denial is a Republican phenomenon… there is this playbook that industries have used… the most recent one is the tobacco industry… [the Koch brothers] invested… hundreds of millions or billions… to confuse people about climate change… and it really worked.”
— Jordan Thomas (36:44–41:53)
On the Mental Toll
“When I was home, I'd have dreams that I was still cutting through brush on a chainsaw… the sounds of two stroke engines like leaf blowers just spike adrenaline… And this is a common experience… you have high levels of substance abuse, you have really high suicidal tendencies.”
— Jordan Thomas (49:10)
On Finding Hope
“There’s so much levity in the community of people… even in such dire situations… that’s where I encountered hope in the book, is people acting and coming together and taking control of what they have power over in their immediate space.”
— Jordan Thomas (56:01, 58:16)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 03:14 – Jordan’s background and path into firefighting
- 05:22 – Surprises about Hotshot culture and daily life
- 10:57 – Ethics of embedded nonfiction, representing communities
- 16:14 – Acclimating to danger and expertise on the fireline
- 21:26 – What the public gets wrong about fire and its history
- 29:47 – Recommended books on Indigenous fire stewardship
- 31:38 – How federal politics shape wildfires and mitigation
- 35:54 – The Koch brothers, climate denial, and political polarization
- 43:14 – The physical, mental, and emotional toll of fighting wildfires
- 49:10 – Effects of trauma, mental health after the job
- 56:01 – Hope found in grassroots efforts and community
Recommendations & Further Reading
By Jordan Thomas:
- When It All Burns: Fighting Fire in a Transformed World
Indigenous Knowledge:
- Robin Wall Kimmerer, Braiding Sweetgrass
- Kat Anderson, Tending the Wild
On Wildfires & Climate:
- John Vaillant, Fire Weather
- River Selby, Brave Enough (memoir by a female Hotshot)
- (Host's pick:) Paradise by Lizzie Johnson
Episode Tone & Takeaways
Jordan’s tone is thoughtful, earnest, and humane, combining big-picture systemic analysis with the granular reality of life in wildfire country. Traci is warm, incisive, and advocacy-oriented, pushing Jordan to clarify tough issues—mental health, politics, labor, and climate.
Core Takeaways:
- Wildfires are not simply “natural disasters” but symptoms of centuries-long systemic issues: colonial violence, failed land management, capitalism, and political neglect.
- The “solution” isn’t technological, but social—fair compensation, mental health support, and policy reform for those doing dangerous, skilled, underappreciated work.
- Indigenous land stewardship must be restored and respected, even as white writers and scientists grapple with representation ethics.
- Local direct action can provide hope and resilience, but systemic, federal, and political change is essential.
Memorable Book-Endings
- Jordan wishes his crew leader Aoki would read the book (he has, and liked it!), but he’d send a copy to Congressman Tom McClintock, who fought against increasing firefighter benefits while they defended his watershed. (60:19–61:13)
- The episode ends with a call for listeners to consider When It All Burns both as a deeply personal memoir and as a lens on the interwoven crises—ecological, political, social, and personal—of our time.
For more information, visit thestackspodcast.com.