Ep. 396 Frankenstein by Mary Shelley — The Stacks Book Club (Angela Flournoy)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Frankenstein by Mary Shelley — The Stacks Book Club"

Podcast: The Stacks
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Angela Flournoy
Episode: 396
Date: October 29, 2025

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Main Theme

This Stacks Book Club episode is a lively and layered deep dive into Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein (1818/1831), exploring its enduring cultural, political, and philosophical resonance. Host Traci Thomas and celebrated author Angela Flournoy unpack the novel’s complex structure, its multiple allegorical interpretations, and the profound questions it raises about creation, responsibility, oppression, and the nature of monstrosity. The conversation weaves in the history of Shelley's writing, the significance of its different editions, and how Frankenstein functions as a bottomless well for modern readings—from disability and race to AI and revolution.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Enduring Power and Pop Culture Myth of Frankenstein

[00:57, 05:04, 32:51]

• Angela opens by noting that Frankenstein has endured due to both its philosophical depth and its ability to shock and disturb across 200 years, especially through the figure of the Creature:

  "People have been just as immediately repulsed and grossed out and freaked out by the concept of this creation for 200 years... Even though the book is arguing, that ain't his fault. It's not his fault he's disgusting." — Angela Flournoy [00:57]

• Traci shares her surprise at how little the actual book has in common with its pop culture image, especially noting that many believe "Frankenstein" is the monster, not the creator.
• The duo highlight how the novel is less a horror story and more “an allegory for everything” [07:28]. The Creature’s portrayal in the book is far more nuanced than the green, bolt-necked image from film.

2. Editions, History, Mary Shelley’s Life

[09:10, 10:13, 23:15, 24:47]

• Traci and Angela discuss the two principal editions: 1818 (edited by Percy Shelley) and 1831 (revised by Mary post-Percy's death with significant narrative/philosophical shifts).
• They break down notable differences (e.g., Elizabeth as Victor’s blood cousin in 1818, adopted in 1831) and how those shifts affect reader sympathies and themes of fate vs. agency.
• Traci gives a rich portrait of Mary Shelley: a teen writing amid personal loss and radical, bohemian influences (her parents, Percy Shelley, Lord Byron). The discussion links Shelley’s biography, especially her identity as a young, grieving, sexually and intellectually unconventional woman, to the book’s deep concern with motherhood and creation.

3. Narrative Structure: The "Nesting Doll" Framework

[13:45, 15:09]

• Both remark on the “nesting doll” (frame narrative) structure: an outer frame (Walton’s letters), Victor’s confession, the Creature’s embedded story, and further embedded tales.
• Angela offers an insightful comparison to slave narratives, which often use layers of attestation to legitimize a marginalized account [16:52], arguing that Shelley’s structure works to establish narrative authority in a male-dominated literary world.
• The unreliable narrator trope is highlighted—especially Victor’s self-serving and persuasive account of events.

  "It's not like an honest confession. It's a persuasive sort of narrative." — Traci [21:39]

4. Sympathies, Allegiances, and Modern Readings

[25:03, 27:11, 28:25, 29:42]

• Traci and Angela explore shifting sympathies: Traci initially sees the Creature as entitled but ends up “ride or die for the creation,” viewing him as an icon of resistance. Angela feels the novel intentionally resists a simple allegiance, instead keeping questions "open and turning over."
• They discuss how Frankenstein feels inexhaustibly relevant: “I could not help but think of Israel and Palestine reading this book… about oppressed groups and their inability to be human.” — Traci [28:25]
• Angela notes the text endures because basic power dynamics (“oppressed and oppressor”) can always be grafted onto the Victor/Creature relationship.

5. Race, Disability, and Otherness

[35:45, 36:00, 38:29, 41:30]

• Traci explores how scholars have read the Creature as a metaphor for race ("he was often interpreted ... as Black") and disability ("a disabled subject made monstrous by a society that equates difference with danger").
• Angela expands: "In all of the instances where the creation is sort of popping up on people, their reaction is so quick ... is he really that crazy looking ... It's up to Victor's description." [38:29]
• They muse about adaptations where the Creature is nearly indistinguishable from Victor, making his “monstrosity” purely a product of outsider projection.

6. Adaptation, Telephone Effect, and the Creation of a New Monster

[41:26, 42:10, 44:03]

• Angela points out that the creature’s pop image (“stitches,” “bolts,” “green skin”) was created by later adaptations and is absent in the original.
• Traci observes: "This book that’s endured ... has created its own monster, which is this totally different interpretation of the text ... by all these different artists." [43:52]
• They explore how each adaptation is less about Shelley’s text than about the concerns and aesthetics of its adapters.

7. The Women of Frankenstein

[47:35, 50:14, 52:37]

• Traci catalogues the women: Elizabeth, the mother, Justine, Margaret (Walton’s sister), Agatha, Safi—most victims, sidelined, or supporting male characters.
• Angela: "She was staying true to [male] POV ... but the creation, who has not been socialized, also takes on these patriarchal kind of assumptions."
• Traci sees a knowing playfulness in Shelley’s portrayals—a subtle drag of her male contemporaries:

  "I think she's literally being like, I'm going to write a story about ambition ... and men who throw women away and don't think about women at all." — Traci [50:23]

8. The Big Themes: Vengeance, Responsibility, Remorse

[52:38, 53:48, 55:19, 58:24]

• The episode circles the book’s burning questions:
  • What do we owe to our creations/children/art?
  • Are we responsible for their actions?
  • How do we process remorse and seek revenge?
• Angela: “How much are we responsible for their actions? The book is really interested in presenting those questions and not necessarily having answers."
• Traci relates this to resistance and rebellion: “Sometimes you gotta get buck wild. … How long is he supposed to take everyone hating him?” [57:55]
• They discuss contemporary resonances: Frankenstein as allegory for slavery, Palestine/Israel, tech, and any cycle of oppression and blowback.

9. Revenge, Targeted Violence, and the Ethics of Creation

[61:06, 61:58, 62:22, 64:39]

• The hosts vividly narrate the revenge arc:
  • Victor refuses to build a mate for the Creature.
  • The Creature vows vengeance: "See you on your wedding night."
  • Creation destroys what Victor loves most (Elizabeth), yet keeps Victor alive—his attention is "what it feels like to be loved," for better or worse.
  • This codependency subverts both the allegory of child/parent and creator/creation.

10. Allegory Overflow: Tech Bros, AI, Trump, Climate Change

[65:44, 66:02, 66:10]

• The book is so fertile it’s been read as allegory for tech moguls, the atomic bomb, climate change, and Donald Trump ("Frankenstein or the creation? ... He could be both the Frankenstein who created this show and also the creation of America.") [66:10]
• Both agree: the novel’s ambiguous, open-ended questions are its greatest power.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Monster's Immediate Rejection:

  "It wasn't until it had life that you realized it was ugly. What's going on here?" — Angela Flournoy [30:29]

• On Authority and Unreliable Narration:

  "He’s not a reliable narrator at all." — Angela Flournoy [21:34] "He's convincing him and us that this is the most disgusting thing. But we don't know that. We don't know." — Traci [33:06]

• On the Text’s Modern Allegorical Flexibility:

  "I could not help but think of Israel and Palestine reading this book… about oppressed groups and their inability to be human." — Traci [28:25]

• On the Women Characters’ Role:

  "Shelley was staying true to POV... [But] the creation, who has not been socialized, also takes on these patriarchal assumptions about women's innate goodness and plainness." — Angela Flournoy [48:22]

• On Shifting Allegiances:

  "I totally swung the other way and was like, I am ride or die for the creation. Like, if you want to kill everybody, fuck Victor. He's the worst." — Traci [27:46]

• On the Unanswerable Questions:

  "The book is really interested in turning over these questions more than it’s interested in us coming away with, 'am I team X or Y?'" — Angela [26:07]

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• 00:57: Angela: Why the Creature still shocks (theme of disgust and projection)
• 05:32: Angela’s history of rereading and the book’s narrative density
• 09:10: Traci on the two key editions and their significance
• 13:45: Narrative structure as "nesting dolls" and how Shelley establishes authority
• 23:15–24:47: Deep dive into Mary Shelley’s biography and its bearing on the novel
• 27:46: Traci’s swing in allegiance to the Creation
• 29:42: Angela: Why the novel’s dynamic endures through centuries
• 35:45–41:30: Race, disability, otherness as interpreted through the Creature
• 47:21–51:16: Women characters: marginalization, subversion, Shelley’s meta-commentary
• 52:38–58:24: Vengeance, compassion, creation, and contemporary relevance
• 61:01–64:09: Revenge, codependency, and the gothic climax
• 65:58–66:10: Allegory for tech, Trump, and the shape-shifting adaptability of Frankenstein

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Conclusion

This episode models exactly why Frankenstein has endured: each generation finds in it a mirror for their own cultural anxieties and ethical dilemmas. Traci and Angela illuminate not just Shelley’s philosophical brilliance and historical context, but the novel’s unique ability to hold contradiction, unsettle allegiances, and remain endlessly adaptable—from readings on slavery to disability to AI. They leave listeners with lingering questions, lively debate, and a new appreciation for a text forever mutating to meet each age’s monsters.

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Next Month’s Book Club: We the Animals by Justin Torres

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Memorable Sign-off:

"This book is really not clear whose side we’re supposed to be on or what we’re supposed to make of it, and I think that is like, why this book is so good." — Traci [53:42]

Transcript

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[Angela Flournoy]

Experience. One of the reasons, in addition to, like, the sort of philosophical applications, the reason why the text has endured is that also people have been just as immediately repulsed and grossed out and freaked out by the concept of this creation for 200 years, right? Like, they have immediately decided, we're gonna dress up like that for Halloween. Even though if you read the text, the point is not the grotesque. They are gonna have the victor stance from the beginning, right? Like, they're gonna be on Team Frankenstein. Meaning, this guy is gross. I don't want him from the beginning. That has also been a thing that sort of shocked and titillated readers. Even though the book is arguing like, that ain't his fault, you know, it's not his fault. He's disgusting.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the ST podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today we are finally doing it.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

We are giving you a spooky season.

[Tracy Thomas]

Edition of the Stacks Book Club. I am joined by author Angela Flournoy, who is back on the podcast to discuss our October book club pick, Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. The book was first published in 1818 and this Gothic classic tells the tale of Victor Frankenstein, a young scientist who brings a monstrous creation to life which leads to disastrous consequences. Today we talk about Frankenstein allegory, whose side we were on, and the story of Mary Shelley and how this book came to be. There are spoilers in today's episode. Be sure to stay tuned to the end of our conversation to find out what our November book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community. Consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. Each place offers you unique perks like community conversation, virtual book club, and a whole lot of hot takes. Plus, you get to know by joining, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to tracythomas.substack.com for my newsletter. All right, now it's time for my conversation about Frankenstein with Angela Flournoy. All right, everybody. I've never been this excited for a.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Book club episode, I don't think, in.

[Tracy Thomas]

The entire seven plus years of doing the Stacks. But today we are talking about Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, a Modern Prometheus. I am joined by, I think a.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Super smart, wonderful person who I am so excited to hear talk about this book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Angela Flournoy, author of the Wilderness. Welcome back.

[Angela Flournoy]

Happy to be back in the stacks.

[Tracy Thomas]

You were right. It's not scary. I was worried Frankenstein was going to.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Be too scary for me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was never scared. I'm so proud.

[Angela Flournoy]

First time reading it?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. This was my first time.

[Angela Flournoy]

Oh, okay. Oh, I'm here. I'm here for it all, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. This is why I'm so excited. Before we even dive in, though, I want to say to everybody listening, spoilers, Every spoiler ever in the history of spoilers, we're gonna do on this book club episode. So if you don't like spoilers, I think that you should know that about yourself and you should pause this and read the book and then come back. Please don't complain to me after you.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Listen to this episode and get spoiled.

[Angela Flournoy]

But I also feel like at a certain point, that's like saying, like, the story of Noah's Ark. Spoilers. Like, this is Frankenstein.

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't know anything about Frankenstein. I didn't know anything, really. I literally. I didn't know a thing. I. This whole book was a fresh and brand new reading experience for me. I feel like, because there's so much pop culture reference to Frankenstein that has.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Nothing to do with what's in the book.

[Tracy Thomas]

You could think, you know, the story of Frankenstein without, like, first of all.

[Angela Flournoy]

It'S like a game of telephone at this point.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. People think Frankenstein is the monster.

[Angela Flournoy]

Yeah, right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's like the green.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

The green guy with the, like, studs in his ears and stuff.

[Angela Flournoy]

He would have loved to have a name.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

He would have loved being named. He would have appreciated to Be anything.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, before we even get to all of this, can you tell us just quickly, generally, how many times you've read this book and what your overall thoughts are upon reading it?

[Angela Flournoy]

I don't even know how many times I've read this book. Probably at least like four or five times over the course of my life. Like my reading life. I don't. But it's one of those books that I have a really bad book memory, I would say so every time I'm like, oh, I forgot that there was this kind of angle. Like, it's so many in this book particularly, it's so slim. You know, a lot of the book is like appendix and introduction. Like, the book itself is what, like less than 200 pages or fewer than 200 pages. And the amount of kinds of like, narratives that are in those 200 pages, I just forget because there's this, there's the action, but then there's all these other things that happen in addition to the action.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you like the book?

[Angela Flournoy]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it is a. I like it for a lot of different reasons and including being like a time capsule for a particular kind of moment. And was 18th, 19th century, sort of like Western thought and literature.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, here are my quick and general thoughts. This was my first read. Holy shit. I think this book is amazing. I think this book is like, this is one of the few classics I have ever read and been like, canon for sure.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

No debate. Like, usually I read these books and I'm like. I'm like, I don't know, do we need. I was like, oh, babe, we need this.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is. I just think to me, like, what makes a classic great is that it holds up and people can read it and project their own shit onto it. And if that is not this book.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I don't know what this book is.

[Tracy Thomas]

This book is like, we're going to talk about this later. But this book is basically an allegory for everything. Like, anything you want this to be an allegory for. I feel like we could.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

We could make it work. Mary Shelley said, yes, it's for you.

[Tracy Thomas]

My only, like my. The only part of this book that I think, you know, I didn't like love is. There were some sections where I was.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like, this is only a 200 page book. And it feels slow, like the way.

[Tracy Thomas]

That information was delivered. There were times where I was like, what are.

[Angela Flournoy]

What.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's happening? It does come together.

[Angela Flournoy]

Right person to talk about this book because, you know, I am going to defend.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I, of course of course. But I'm just saying like for as a first time reader, I was a little bit like, like she was like, I think she was doing it on purpose. She was like slow playing me. And I didn't love that. And in the beginning when I first started reading it, because the language is dense and you know, I, I read a ton of books and I bounce between things that were written like, that aren't even out yet. And then I go to something like Frankenstein. And so what I had to do for like the first 30 or 40 pages is I read the book out loud to myself. Like I just, I had, I had like an accent for Walton.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like I was doing like a full.

[Tracy Thomas]

At home stage production because I couldn't quite grasp the language at first. But then once I did, once I got like, once the creature was born, I didn't have to do that anymore. But I definitely had to take my time in the beginning and like read it. And not even that like soto voce.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like whisper like full on, like, my.

[Tracy Thomas]

Dearest sister Margaret, I'm out to see. So that being said, I love this book. I love this book. I love this book.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I love this book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Now, what edition did you read? Have you read 1818 and 1831? Do you know?

[Angela Flournoy]

Girl, I don't know. I mean, I've probably read them both over.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I have this, this is the time one, but I also have this one which is the 1831. I'm going to tell you how you know, go to the actual chapter one kind of halfway down it says, he passed his younger days perpetually occupied by the affairs of his country. And then what does yours say?

[Angela Flournoy]

He passed his younger days perpetually occupied by the affairs of his country. A variety of circumstances.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so that's 1831. So you have 1831. If you have 1818, it goes, he passes younger days perpetually occupied by the affairs of his country. And it was not until the decline of life that he thought of marrying and bestowing on the stage sons. So we read different editions, which I'm actually really excited about. But you probably have read both. If you've read it four times, who knows? But for people who are at home listening, there are two different versions of Frankenstein. I didn't even know that until I.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Picked this for book club.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the stacks pack was like, which.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Edition are people reading? And I was like, what does that.

[Tracy Thomas]

But the history is sort of that Mary Shelley. Well, let me give you guys the full history of the book. So Mary Shelley was on vacay in 1816, which was the summer, the summer or the year without summer, there was this volcanic eruption, a large climate change event, which meant that there was basically no summer. In 1816. She went on vacay with Lord Byron and her not yet, but soon to be husband, Percy Shelley, her stepsister. They were just vacaying, but there was no summer. So it was very rainy and gloomy and Lord Byron was like, hey, guys, let's all write ghost stories as a competition and see who can write the best one. Spoiler alert. Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein and she won Lord Byron.

[Angela Flournoy]

Everyone else didn't even finish what they wrote.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, Lord Byron wrote something that was. That ends up being sort of like a precursor to Dracula, but it's called like vampire or something. I don't know, something. So he. He got something off. But. But she wanted a landslide.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like she wrote this and they wrote things we've never heard of. So she wins.

[Tracy Thomas]

The book then comes out in 1818. It is edited. The 1818 version is edited by her husband, Percy Shelley. He then goes on to die shortly thereafter, like in 1825 or something. And then there's a stage production of Frankenstein in 1823, I believe, which Mary Shelley sees. She maybe has some thoughts and feelings about it and decides to eventually go back and rewrite the book in 1831. She keeps some and takes out some of Percy Shelley's edits, but she changes some things. So, for example, in the 1818 version, Elizabeth is the cousin by blood of Victor Frankenstein.

[Angela Flournoy]

That is something that I was like. What is all this extra lore? Because I recall her just being straight up cousin. So I think I must have read 18 before.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So in 1831, she is adopted into the family. They like find her in the dirt.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

She's like a dirt child and they're like, poor, poor beautiful girl in the dirt.

[Angela Flournoy]

Like, come the dirt being all of the brunette siblings, mind you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. They're like you. You're perfect and blonde.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

You cannot live this horrible life. We will take you in.

[Tracy Thomas]

So, like, there's those kind of differences, but then there's this big overreaching difference between the two, which is that in 1818, Victor Frankenstein is on his own expedition. This is. He wants to figure this out in the 1831. It's softened a little bit. He. It more like is faded to be. He comes into the ability to create life. So it's sort of a bigger philosophical difference. It's not stated that way, but it's sort of. My understanding is that it is rolled out in 1818, it's like, I'm gonna create life. Like, I'm inspired to do this. This is my life calling. And in 1831, it's more like, oh, I think I figured this out. Like, whoops, oh, my gosh, look what I did. So there's all of that, which is a lot. Um, but it will probably impact our readings of our conversation today, because it'll impact how we think about some of the things that happened.

[Angela Flournoy]

That's not a question.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

It's just a lot of backstory.

[Tracy Thomas]

Um, one of the things that I found really interesting about. About Frankenstein is that it is. I think it was. It's referred to as like, a nesting doll story, where we have this narrative that starts with this sort of, like, preface that's like. This is, like, from. From Percy Shelley writes this, like, preface. And then we get into these letters from Walton, who is a sailor who meets. Who sees a beast, and then meets Victor Frankenstein, who then tells his story to Walton. And in the middle of.

[Angela Flournoy]

Also importantly, is thirsty for a friend.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, thirsty.

[Angela Flournoy]

Walton is. He's like, I just need a buddy out here, you know, on this expedition.

[Tracy Thomas]

I need someone to talk to. He's like, sister, you might think it's giving gay.

[Angela Flournoy]

And it might be, but I think. But I'm lonely and I need a friend.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

He said, it could be friendship, it could be fucking. I don't care.

[Tracy Thomas]

Judge me as you will, but, like, lonesome, lonesome stuff. And then he meets Victor. Victor starts telling him his story. Then later, we get Frankenstein, or we get the creature story as told to Victor. And then inside that story, we get the story of these people. So it's like this layered, layered, layered, layered, layered, layered thing. What do you make of this as just, like, structure?

[Angela Flournoy]

So what I make of it as structure, it has to do with this is I just. Every time I've read it before, I haven't had this thought. And I'm sure it's not an original thought. I'm sure there's, like, dissertations about it. But in its own way, when we think about how young Mary Shelley was when she wrote this, and we also think about the ways in which. And there's probably PhDs who are going to get mad at me for saying this, that, you know, she. She had a very famous mother, right? Mary Wollstonecraft. You know, nowadays, people would say she was a Nepo kid a little bit. Her mother was like a philosopher and like a women's, right, women's rights advocate. So you're writing this thing that feels, you know, one of the sort of things that made it famous is that it was like a young woman from the mind of a young woman that this comes from. And it's not just that. It's like. Because there's. And there's action, but. And. But also because it's, like, concerned with, like, science, both kind of like alchemy and, like, that. Like dark art kind of science, but also, like, chemistry and things like that. So in the same ways, and this is where I'm saying somebody has probably written a dissertation about this that, like, older, like, slave narratives were, like, framed in this way to try to help the reader, the prejudiced reader, believe that this is a real account and that an enslaved person had written this. And you can trust it. There are ways that the structure of this help to give Shelley, like, authority to be writing the story, right? So she, you know, whatever the, like, preface aside. So her husband's, like, preface aside, which.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is so weird and bad.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

The preface was like, we don't need it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right? And.

[Angela Flournoy]

But that is the thing that is, like, used to be at the beginning of. Or is still in the beginning of these narratives, right? Like, these slave narratives is somebody, you know, some white person being like, I attest to that. This person wrote it. You know, I am a real person. You should trust that they did it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Angela Flournoy]

But these epistle, like, the epistolary opening is really trying to establish, like, authority, right? So it's like, we have to have a few of Walton's letters where he's just like, I'm a guy. I'm a guy out here doing a thing.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Just a lonely dude ready to fuck or just rude.

[Angela Flournoy]

And then I. You know, you need to, like, ease into the, like, fantastic by establishing, in one ways, if you think about it even now, it's fantastic. But, like, he's, you know, in the sort of unknown north, right? Like, on an expedition. And then this, like, this speculative thing happens, right? Which is like, he sees a beast.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Angela Flournoy]

And then from there, you have to have. So it starts with just, like, epistolary. This guy has nothing to admit. He has no stake in it. He is just, like, receiving it. But from there, you have, like, somebody who is beginning a confessional, but they're slow to confess it, right? Because they also are like, don't throw me out of this boat into the. Into the tundra. Like, I need to be your friend. So part of the things that you probably thought were slow in the beginning of Frankenstein's, like, confessional is that he has to. Obviously, like, every good confessional, you're not going to just admit on, like, page one, like, I made a monster and then I ditched him. It's like, I'm a good guy. Like, I am from, like, a noble upbringing or at least, like, a pretty decent upbringing before we can get to that. And so. And then within there, you have another confessional. Right.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Which is.

[Angela Flournoy]

But that one is also a condemnation from the creature. Right. It's like, I confess some shit, but it's actually your fault. So both of these things have to happen. And it's also. In being a combination condemnation. It's also just, like, straight up interpretive. I was like a rough lump of clay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Angela Flournoy]

I was looking at the whole. And that also, man, it reminds me of so many, like, narratives of these, like, enslaved people. Like, learning from. By, you know, any means necessary, learning language and learning.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's like Frederick Douglass, literally, or it's Vivian Jacobs.

[Angela Flournoy]

Right. Like, narratives in the life of a slave woman or girl. Excuse me. And literally looking through a hole. Right. And so the ways that, like, language and, like, civilization reaches the creature, it has to be, like, both to bolster him and to condemn Frankenstein at the same time. So the structure really, like, primes you to get there. And do you compare. Like, you have to compare one person's confession that you got in the beginning. Who. Nothing really ever happened to him. I mean, his mother did pass away, which is terrible. I'm not saying it's nothing, but there was no reason for him to just hop fully into necromancy. Like, that's just a thing he decided to do.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Yes.

[Angela Flournoy]

And so the structure really, like, makes it more than just a creature story.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. And not to jump to the end, but one of the things that. I really appreciate it. This kind of speaks to your point of, like, the authoritative voice is at the very end, Victor's dead.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Spoilers. I told you. Victor's dead.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the monster and the lonely Walton are talking. And the monster is like. Or the creature. I don't know. I know. It's like, whatever. The. The guy, he's. He's like. I mean, I know you got Victor's story, but, like, you're gonna believe his story.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like, he's for sure manipulate. Like, the way that he just so casually is like.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, sure, but you think he.

[Angela Flournoy]

Told you the whole truth.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just love that because there's so many times, like, throughout the story where I kept being like, oh, okay. But I didn't quite, like, put together, like, of course, Victor is Trying to persuade Walton, Like, I kept trying. I kept having to remember this is his persuasive account. He's trying to be taken in, to be taken care of. Like, he knows he needs help, and so he's not. It's not like an honest confession. It's a persuasive sort of narrative. And I love how at the very.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

End, the creature is like. I mean, you know, he was lying to you.

[Angela Flournoy]

Right, Right, of course, of course. Like, he's not a reliable narrator at all.

[Tracy Thomas]

At all. But it's so. So. Oh, wait. Okay. Before we get to that, I. I do want to say a few more things about Mary Shelley, because I think what I want to say about her informs sort of the rest of the conversation. And then I do want to go back to some of the stuff around slavery, because I think it's really important. So I talked about this. This summer with the Year without summer. When she's writing the book in, like, 1816. She's, like, 17 or 18 years old when the book comes out, she's 19. She's just lost a baby. She's had a child who has died within, like, 10 days of being born. She is one of the only women writers of this era who is a sexual being at all. She has been married. She has had and lost children, when her contemporaries are all sort of like spinsters and like single women. So in addition to this book being very interested about, like, knowledge and creation, it is very interested, or people are interested in it because it deals with sex and motherhood from a woman's perspective. So that is something like we cannot forget, even though this is, like, a book about men. Underneath all of that is, like, she's one of the only mothers who's writing at the time. Her husband is a hoe. He's a womanizer. Lord Byron is also a hoe. They're all just fudgeing, being crazy. As you said, she's raised by these radical parents. There's conversation about her perhaps being queer. She's has an unrequited or requited love of. Of. Of a woman who is her stepsister, who is.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Has a baby by Lord Byron.

[Tracy Thomas]

These people are having a great time in, like, Geneva.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

They are just. I can't reiterate this enough. They are sad, they are emotional, and they are having children.

[Angela Flournoy]

And I didn't have a summer and.

[Tracy Thomas]

They had no summer. They were doing all of this without summer. Like, most people need summer to get the party cracking. Not that after the book comes out in 1818, basically, everybody dies. So Lord Byron dies shortly thereafter. Her husband dies shortly thereafter. I believe her father also dies shortly thereafter. So in between the 1818 writing and the 1831 revision, basically everybody dies. She's left all alone. And so, for those of you who had the 1831 version, that might be something that comes up, perhaps more that feeling of, like, being the only one left. And then the last thing I sort of want to say about her biography, which I read a really great piece in the New Yorker from for, like, the 200th anniversary by Jill Leor, where she talks about Mary Shelley's name, which is Mary Wollstonecraft, Godwin Shelley, which, for those of you who missed what was said before, Mary Wollstonecraft was her mother. Godwin is her father's last name and Shelley is her husband's last name. So Mary Shelley actually does not have her own name. And people have referred to it as a Frankenstein effect, that. It's like she is pieced together from these other people, but is not herself named on. On her own. And I thought that was.

[Angela Flournoy]

We need to bring back female Juniors, though. I really.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Angela Flournoy]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love it. I love it. I want to just ask you this sort of broad question after reading the book. Where did you. Where do you feel that your sympathies lie?

[Angela Flournoy]

You know, it's interesting because I don't necessarily know if the book is interested in a reader coming away with an ultimate sympathy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I feel the reason I asked you this is because my first question is, where do your sympathies lies?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And then I said, where do we feel like Mary Shelley's lies with where.

[Tracy Thomas]

Mary Shelley comes down with our sympathies?

[Angela Flournoy]

I feel like, obviously they're more than Frankenstein. They don't line with Frankenstein mine nor Mary Shelley's.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Angela Flournoy]

As far as the creature, we can be kind and say their creation, he is not. He's like a murderer. Right. And a murderer often of innocence. Right. So it's not even that these are justified, but when I think about when I reread it this time, I think, absolutely the first time since, like, becoming a mother, I definitely felt more sympathy towards him thinking, like, towards Victor. No.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh. Towards the creation.

[Angela Flournoy]

To the creation. Towards the creation. Thinking like, you didn't ask to be born. You literally didn't ask to be born. And here you are and you were given nothing and you were not. You did not ask to be born. But I think that it is. It's really a book that is interested in. It's like, interested in turning over all of these questions more than it's interested in us coming away with, like, am I team X or team Y? And I felt like I, I really, when I read it every time, I just again, come away with these questions and not like, oh, man, I could see how I would need to kill a teenager to get back at my, you know, creator. I don't necessarily think that either.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, sure, I actually, this is probably very unflattering of me, but as I was reading it in the beginning at the scene in which Victor and the creation meet, I kind of came away with it being like the creation sort.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Of like an incel. Like, he's sort of being like a little bitch. Like, you just want a girlfriend so you can go off and be like, sad together because nobody likes you, or else you're going to kill everybody.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I really was sort of like.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I know Victor was a bad creator, but this feels really extreme.

[Tracy Thomas]

By the time I got to the end of the book, I was like.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I don't know why this is not.

[Tracy Thomas]

A revolutionary text for every oppressed group ever. Like, I don't know why this is.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Not included in every, like, Black Panther reader.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or like, I just, I totally swung.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

The other way and was like, I am ride or die for the creation. Like, if you want to kill everybody, fuck Victor. He's the worst.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I definitely had this, like, major alliance swing. I wasn't ever like, fully team Victor in the beginning, but I was much more anti the creation. Like, I was really against sort of his logic. And then I swung and I'm probably.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Wrong to be so, you know, binary, but that's just who I am, unfortunately for me and everyone who knows me.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I, I did, I did also think a lot about, like, is this reading, Is my reading a bit way too modern? Like, am I, Am I way too 2025, too anachronistic? I mean, I can't help. And we'll talk about some of the allegories that you could like or, like, some of the things you could put map onto this story. But, like, I could not help but think of Israel and Palestine and reading this book. Like, I could not help but think, think about the ways that we talk about about, like, oppressed groups and their, you know, inability to be human and all. Like, all of the like.

[Angela Flournoy]

And that's so much made of darkness and light.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes. Like, I just couldn't help but think about those things. And obviously I, I mean, my. The first place I went was slavery. That was the first place I went but then as I kept reading, I. I just couldn't stop thinking about sort of, you know, what, what has happened in the last few years and also hundreds of years in Israel and Palestine and the language and all of that which we can get to later. But. So I think some of my reading was just like extremely 2025, which maybe doesn't serve the text as well, but it served me well.

[Angela Flournoy]

I think that's why the text endures for sure, is that there are basic. Whether the oppressed is just straight up like man and woman. There are basic relationships, like historical relationships that can kind of graft onto the relationship between Victor and his creation. And there's also, there's also the question of, like, what does it mean to be civilized? Because something in Victor, when I. I don't know if maybe it's because it's the 1831 version. I don't know what I have to compare read again. But I remember there being more between the moment of the creation becoming alive and Victor being disgusted.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it was. No, it's instant. It's instant.

[Angela Flournoy]

And I was like, did I. Like, maybe it was a film adaptation. I'm like, I. I feel like I had ascribed a little bit more like, deliberation on Victor's part, but it is instant. He's just like, this thing was ugly when you put it together, but it wasn't until it had life that you realized it was ugly. What's going on here?

[Tracy Thomas]

It's so I was, I was stunned at this moment to the point that I thought, oh, this first creation is.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Not the creation and that we're going to get a second creation. Because I was like, goodbye.

[Angela Flournoy]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is there no payoff do we get?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

The lack of curiosity on Victor's part about the thing that he's made. I was stuck. Like, truly. I. I text everybody I know who.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Read the book and was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's it. That, like, he falls into a coma after this 20 second interaction. Like, I just. What? I. I mean, to me, that bit was a real drag of men to me. Like, just.

[Angela Flournoy]

I mean, it reminded me. I finally watched Wicked like two weeks ago and it reminded me. It's like the baby comes out green.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Oh, yeah.

[Angela Flournoy]

And they're like, goodbye. Goodbye immediately.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh my God.

[Angela Flournoy]

But it also, I mean, I think one of the things that is interesting about the way you're talking about putting like a modern reading on the text, one of the reasons, in addition to like the sort of philosophical applications, the reason why the text is endured. Is that also people have been just as immediately repulsed and grossed out and freaked out by the concept of this creation for 200 years, right? Like, they have immediately decided, we're gonna dress up like that for Halloween. Like, we are going to get a bride, put an electric shock in her hair, and we're gonna go with the grotesque. Even though if you read the text, the point is not the grotesque. They are going to have the victor stance from the beginning, right? Like, they're going to be on Team Frankenstein. Meaning, this guy is gross. I don't want him from the beginning. That has also been a thing that sort of shocked and titillated readers was how disgusting the concept is. Even though the book is arguing like, that ain't his fault. You know, it's not his fault.

[Tracy Thomas]

Disgusting and also arguing that, again, this person who's telling us how disgusting this thing is is an unreliable narrator, it's in his best interest to say, this.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Is the most disgusting thing ever.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right? No one else has seen it. Who he's talking to, he's talking to Walton. He's talking to the reader, you know, like, we're the audience and he's convincing him and us that this is the most disgusting thing. But we don't know that. We don't know.

[Angela Flournoy]

I mean, what we know is that he's large. That's all we know, that he's large.

[Tracy Thomas]

We know that he has, like, yellow, dull yellow eyes, that he breathed hard. I mean, this is what he says.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

How can I describe my emotions at this catastrophe? Or how delineate the wretch whom with such infinite pains and care I had endeavored to form. His libs were in proportion, and I had selected his features as beautiful. Beautiful. Great God. His yellow skin scarcely covered the work of muscles and arteries beneath. His hair was of a lustrous black and flowing. His teeth of a pearly whiteness. But these luxuriances only formed a more horrid contrast with his watery eyes that seemed almost of the same color as the done white sockets in which they were set, his shriveled complexion and straight black lips. Then he goes on to talk about, like, what it felt like. But that's what we know of this monster. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey, friends, it's Tracy. So how have you been enjoying the podcast? Hopefully you're loving it. And if you are, you might want a little bit more of the stacks. And I've got two places that you should check out to keep these bookish Good vibes going the Stacks Pack, which is my Patreon community and you can find [e-mail] the stacks and my newsletter, which I call Unstacked is over on Substack at Tracy Thomas substack.com Let me break it down for you. The Stacks Pack is where community lives. We're talking book club meetups, a private discord to chat books all day long. Our year long mega reading challenge to push your reading goals to the next level. Plus members get a bonus episode every month. It's a great way to support my work and to connect with an awesome crew of readers. Over on Unstacked, I'm keeping the conversation going twice a week with posts that cover everything from my mini reviews and book rankings to pop culture hot takes and rants, plus whatever's on my tbr. There's also a free option over there so you can stay connected with me. So head to patreon.com the stacks and Tracy thomas.substack.com to connect and meet with other book lovers and support this black woman run independent podcast. I can't wait to talk books with you.

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[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

That's okay.

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[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, we're back. Immediately after following this book I just.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I went on Google and typed Frankenstein.

[Tracy Thomas]

Disability, Frankenstein Gaza, Frankenstein slavery, Frankenstein climate change.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like I just want to say you.

[Angela Flournoy]

Were looking for those in this essay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I will, yeah, because I was really curious because as I was reading I was like you could make this book about anything. Like I was so taken by the idea that you could make this book about anything if you wanted to. And two things that I think were interesting about this particular section of like the monster being born and him deciding he was ugly and sort of throwing him away is that there is some pretty strong writing about how this is about the creation of race and that back in the time of this being done, oftentimes Frankenstein was created to be black. Like that he like the way that he's described people interpreted or sorry, the monster, excuse me. Or the creation was black. Like they talk about his large size, how he can survive in other climates, how he doesn't have to eat the same things food, how he's not how he's impervious to pain and all of these things. And that oftentimes at the time it was interpreted his different color of skin, though it wasn't black skin, it was like an othering of skin color. And then the other thing that comes from this same moment is there is like this very strong disability lens through which this book is read. And it has to do with the fact that there is technically nothing, quote unquote disabled about the Creation. It is just that he is otherized through the eyes of other people. And that a lot of disability. Disability like activists and writers have talked about this. And I'm going to link to these pieces in the. In the show notes because I want to. Like there's stuff. But one of the things is that this is said by Debilina Banerjee in a like abstract that I read that says the creation is not a monster by nature, but a disabled subject made monstrous by a society that equates difference with danger. They also say he becomes emblematic of the socially constructed nature of disability where deviance is not innate, but imposed through cultural norms of appearance and ability. And I thought that was really interesting. Like that this creation, there is nothing like quote unquote wrong with him. But it is just that Victor has told us he is unworthy, different, other eyes and that society agrees that this ugly thing is less than or worse than. And I found that really like fascinating.

[Angela Flournoy]

So one thing that I find interesting about that is that in all of the instances where the creation is sort of popping up on people in the book, their reaction is so quick that again, it's up to. He always is comparing them. But from Victor's first reaction from Victors. So it we. I think I could see how I understand that interpretation. Like when he's his. His lovely villagers, like those poor people, he's like in the hovel next to their house. Felix and company when they react like hysterically immediately we don't. It could just because there was a big man like hanging out with their feeble blind like dad. Like everything happened so quickly that there is definitely room for that interpretation that like is he really that crazy looking? Even in the. Like it. What is it exactly?

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. There's an argument to be made that there's a movie or play or whatever of this where the creation basically just is like an identical twin of Victor, right? Like that there is a version of this story where it's all just societal interpretation and that. And that the creation is so scarred by Victor's response, by the response of his creator that all he can see is the people who respond to him as hating him for how he looks. And there's literally nothing wrong with him.

[Angela Flournoy]

I wish I had that. I had. I could easily find that part. But when, like, the. Conveniently, like, the day the creation is made, Henry shows up, Right. He shows up in town. And the way he describes how Victor looks, he's like, your skin is so yellow. Like, you look.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Angela Flournoy]

He basically describes, like, a skinnier, shorter version of the creature.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Yes. And I think, like, you know, I love Shakespeare. And there's a. There was a production of Richard III a few years ago in New York where Richard III was played by Deny. Deny Guerrera. Is that how you say her name? And she was, like, the only non disabled person in the cast. Even though Richard III is famously, like, disabled in the text. Like, he's got a grotesque arm. He's got a hunchback. And it's just, like, such an interesting thing to flip this idea of, like, the monster's so ugly and hideous. But I think, like, there's a version of this where the monster is the.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Hottest person in the whole thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Like, and that it doesn't matter. It's not actually about how ugly he is. It's about how people respond to him, how people treat him. Like. There is, I'm sure, an argument of, like, he goes to help the little girl from the water, and they shoot him and it's. Or they shoot at him and it's because they think he's trying to steal a little girl. Like. But then there's also the version that, like, he really is ugly and people just hate him for being ugly.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And, like, that's bad, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, there's.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

You could really read it both ways, and they're.

[Tracy Thomas]

Neither one is great.

[Angela Flournoy]

And that's one of the things that's also interesting about. I was saying how this book has, like, at this point in culture, sort of under cultural understanding, it's like a game of telephone. There is no stitches across his face described by Shelley. There is no. Obviously, there are no bolts outside of his neck described by Shelley.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. He's not green.

[Angela Flournoy]

He's absolutely not green. The things that have become the sort of. The cultural, like, shorthands for Frankenstein are not in the original text. The things that have made him more legibly grotesque are not actually in the original text at all. And at some point, that comes from the 18.

[Tracy Thomas]

It comes from the 1931 movie, apparently. I did a little bit of research on where our modern understanding of Frankenstein comes from. And those images come from the 1931 film. I don't know where they got that. But I also think. Don't you think it's fascinating, Angela, that, like, this book that's endured, that people love, people who read the book, love the book, has created its own monster, which is this totally different interpretation of the text by all of these different artists. Like, so many artists have been drawn to this story to create their own version that they've tapped into whatever piece of it works for them. I saw the Guillermo del Toro movie. The plot is totally different. I did not like it. I personally do not like his esthetic. I think it's a little ugly. And, like, it's just not for me. Like, the shit that he does with color and I don't know. And the acting's not great, but he's changed so much in. In the story. Like, for example, Victor's father is mean, and he has a wealthy benefactor who hires him to make the monster. And William, the brother is his. Basically his age. He's like, a few years younger. And his fiance is Elizabeth. Like, it's just like you've just changed the entire story and that. Those aren't spoilers. You find that out all very early in the thing in the movie. But I'm just like, oh, Guillermo del Toro was so inspired by this book that he wanted to do his own version. And, like, that's the story he wanted to tell. And I. It's just there's not that many books that are adapted over and over where they're taken that far away from the original text. And so I'm also just fascinated by this as inspiration.

[Angela Flournoy]

I wonder. I mean, I know one book that has been adapted over and over, you know, the Bible. But again, there's a creation story. And I.

[Tracy Thomas]

But it stays closer to the text. It's not like Noah's ark and then it's like we took nine of every animal.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Or like, there. It was actually a heat wave, not a flood.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, the Bible has been adapted, but, you know, Jesus dies most of the.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Time and comes back after three days. Like, they're not being like, oh, actually, Jesus's mom was a total bitch. And she was everybody. They're like, no, she's a virgin.

[Angela Flournoy]

I think that there is. I mean, I brought up the Bible mostly because I think that, like, there's something about this being a creation text that people I think find sure really compelling. But I also wonder. I haven't read any of, like, Yarmouth Tutorial's, like, interviews about this movie. But I also wonder, as a filmmaker, when you decide, oh, I'm going to take on this thing that has been adapted so many times at a certain point, are you even interested in the text as much as you're interested in what hasn't been done in a film about the. About the text, which is. Then again, like, telephone. Like, we're very far from the text. And I also, you know, I haven't seen the movie yet, but, like, a mean dad that is just, like, you know, one of a few classic origin stories of, like, a fairy tale when you want, like, a hero to be understandable or to be sympathetic. And quite frankly, Victor is not the most sympathetic in the original text. He admits it, like, I just was really ambitious. Like, I wanted to do this thing, and I did it. But it's. People desire, I think, more than that. And so this is how he has to become. That's interesting that it's like a rich guy put him up to it, because.

[Tracy Thomas]

It'S like, well, he was sort of doing it. And the rich guy's like, I'll give you all the money you want to make it happen. Like, he was, like, sort of futzing around with the science. And the rich guy's like, I'll. I'll. I'll bankroll you until you get it right kind of thing.

[Angela Flournoy]

Oh, okay. Well, I mean, that seems like a. An allegory of our time.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, there's nothing wrong with the story that Guillermo del Toro tells. It's just not the story of Frankenstein. And so I'm just fascinated by being like, I want to tell this story, but I want to tell it in my way. And, like, obviously, it's been done over and over to the point, like, to.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Your telephone point, that we have this green monster that everybody thinks is named Frankenstein with bolt in his neck.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that's literally.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

None of that's here. Like, literally none of that's in this book.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is, like, an impossible, impossible task to talk about this whole book. I haven't even. We haven't even done the plot. We're not probably not going to do the plot if you didn't read the book with us, like, go back and read it. But I want to talk about Elizabeth. I want to talk about the women in this book, because I think in a modern reading or, like, a modern understanding, we think a book by woman is going to be about the women, and the women are going to be the center of the story. And in a lot of ways, the women in this book are kind of cast to the side. Right? Like, we've got Elizabeth, we've got Frankenstein's mother, who dies very early. We have Justine, who is the servant gal, who is wrongfully accused, convicted and killed for the death of William quickly.

[Angela Flournoy]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Super quick. And who also, like, confesses.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

She's like, I just.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like it's probably easier if I just admit to this.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And then they're like, did you really? And she's like, no, babe, I just. I gotta go.

[Tracy Thomas]

Bye. So weird.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I'm like, justine, fight, girl, fight.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then we also have Margaret Wallace, who the letters are being written to. We have Agatha, who is the sister to Felix, and then Safi, who is the wife.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

She is the Arabian wife.

[Angela Flournoy]

She's an Arab wife. Yeah. Of Felix.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Of Felix.

[Tracy Thomas]

And they're all sort of, in my favorite Shakespeare term, given short shrift. We barely get much of them. They, Elizabeth, Frankenstein's mother, Justine, are sort of all victims of. Of something or another. Justine and Elizabeth of Frankenstein's actions. The monster, Agatha, like, Agatha and Safi just. They run away scared. Like, it's just so. I don't know. So what do you make. Make of this?

[Angela Flournoy]

You know, I make of it, obviously, Shelley was staying true to pov. You know, this is how she believed a lot of men thought about women. So if she's going to have this beef and the POV of these various men, then this is how they're going to think. What's interesting is that the creation who has he has not been socialized to believe anything. How quickly he also sort of takes on these patriarchal kind of assumptions about women's, like, innate goodness, but also their kind of plainness and simpleness. When it's like, you are plain and simple, my guy. You just learned how to read yesterday.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Right? Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

You're seven.

[Angela Flournoy]

Exactly. And also when you thought he was like, an incel in the beginning, the ways that he's like, well, I just need this companion to stay still and be next to me. Like, that's what a woman's role is. And it's like, where did you get this from? Out in the woods?

[Tracy Thomas]

And also, like, why does he want a woman companion? Like, you know, Walton is just available for any friendship.

[Angela Flournoy]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

You know, Walton is just like, single, ready to mingle.

[Tracy Thomas]

One of the things that struck me very early in the book is after the mom dies and he go and Victor goes to college at Ingolstadt Engelstad, he talks about Elizabeth, and he says, she consoled me, amused. Her uncle, instructed my Brothers. And I never beheld her so enchanting as at this time, when she was continually endeavoring to contribute to the happiness of others. Entirely forgetful of herself. I was like, drag them. Because I think, to your point, yes, she stays true to the text, but I also think she's saying, you know, in the book, like, I, I, I think I'm thinking about her audience, right? She's writing this ghost story for her group of friends.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Who are these womenizing guys?

[Tracy Thomas]

Her boyfriend, husband, his friend, Lord Byron.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And I think she's literally being like.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm gonna write a story about ambition.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And men who throw women away and don't think about women at all and think we're idiots.

[Tracy Thomas]

Job is to serve them. And I'm just gonna slide that right across the table to this group of.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Men who are assholes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I think she's sort of, like, playfully dragging them. Like, I think, you know, this idea of these, these. The enlightenment and, like, wanting to learn everything and wanting to create great art and create great things. I do think this book is sort of a bit. A little bit like an inside joke that sort of takes off.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And I think you get that in.

[Tracy Thomas]

Those kind of lines where she's like, like, she was never so amazing as when she was doing everything for everyone else.

[Angela Flournoy]

Like, how lovely and the way that the women are. Like, Elizabeth literally acts like there's nothing that can make her feel better than getting one word on a piece of paper from Victor. Like, yeah, yeah, nothing can console me except to see your writing on a piece of paper.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. And, like, then there's also, like, the.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Two letters, one from Victor's dad and one from Elizabeth, that are like, hey.

[Tracy Thomas]

We know why you're so sad. It's because, like, we want you to.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Marry your cousin, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

And, like, you're not that into that, right? Like, and Elizabeth's like, I know why you're sad. Like, do you like someone else?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like, he's just not that into me. And I just found that part so funny because I'm like, this is such a weird plot point. But also, that is, like, the most relatable thing that would be me. Like, all this is going on with some guy I have a crush on.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I'm like, hey, I've noticed you're really sad. Like, your brother's dead and your mom's dead. And, like, you seem really preoccupied. But also, like, do you still like me?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Yes or no?

[Angela Flournoy]

Well, even his mom, though, on her deathbed, was like, yeah, it sucks that I'm dying. But if you two would just get married, like, I could be so restful in the afterlife. There is something about it that does seem that Shelley is. Yeah. That she, it's, it's. She is like, aware of like fucking with these expectations that men have in her life and in just in general for women.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I want to talk about sort of like the big questions of this book, which are to me, like, vengeance.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Yes or no. Compassion, yes or no.

[Tracy Thomas]

What do we owe each other? What do we owe to the things that we create, that we release into the world, Whether that's a child or art? And then also like remorse. What do we do with the feelings we have about the things that we have done? Because I think, like, ultimately for me that was like the big question. Like we might feel compelled to. To make decisions that are violent or harmful or, you know, ambitious or. Or created by ego. But in the end, like, what. What do we do with that? So I don't know if you have thoughts or feelings on sort of these bigger issues questions. And I think to your earlier point, this is where I feel like the.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Book is really not clear, like whose.

[Tracy Thomas]

Side we're supposed to be on or what we're supposed to make of it. And I think that is like, why this book is so good.

[Angela Flournoy]

Absolutely. I think particularly thinking about, like, what do we owe our creations, our children? How much are we responsible for their actions? The book is really interested in presenting those questions and not necessarily having answers. I mean, there is the answer that like, it's going to come back to bite you, obviously in some way how you treat your offspring or your creation. But as far as. Is Victor responsible for all of the creatures choices and behaviors in the sense that he created him? Yes, but it is not. The book is not saying unequivocally that like, you know, Victor sometimes says, like, I, you know, I killed William, I'm the one, because I made this thing. But the book does not necessarily always agree with that because the creation is also given enough agency for us to believe he has agency. You know, like, he's right speaking for himself, and he has his own logic. It's not like he's like, I don't know why I did it. Like, he's like, this is exactly why I did it. So that is one of the many compelling questions to me is like, at what point? Obviously this was really accelerated because he did not raise this creation at all. But at what point is your. It is not your responsibility or does it remain your responsibility? What happens with a person under your care for whatever reason, after they're no.

[Tracy Thomas]

Longer under your care to complicate or like, to add to what you're saying. It would be one thing if the creation goes off and is, like, continually doing bad things because he has not been taught or loved or parented or anything. And he, like, just continues on this path. But there is this moment in his story where he learns to read, and he, like, there is this sort of awakening that he has, and then he still does choose to go back to the. Or like, chooses to go towards this path of violence, right? And, like, I think that's really interesting because. And I think this. Okay, so this is what brings me to sort of this conversation about, like, the slave rebellion, about Palestine and Gaza and Hamas and all these things is like, the question becomes, at what point are people expected to sit down and take it? Right? Like, he learns, he understands. And so therefore, you know, does he make these choices to harm others and to, like, go on this path consciously as a tactic? Or are we supposed to believe that this is just his nature? Right? Like that. Like, do you know. Do you know what I'm getting at? I don't know. I'm just struggling with, like, like, okay, let me do it this way. Nat Turner, famous slave rebellion. He was enslaved. He got a group of people together. They go in the house, they kill the. The owners, the slave owners hit the kids, tear out of town. They kill a bunch of people. At the time, it's like, nat Turner is the worst. They capture him, they kill him. Cautionary tale of just the worst in black people. After time, Nat Turner becomes a hero. He becomes a hero for two black people. As someone who did not sit down and take it, who saw the injustice, who rose up, who fought back, who killed children and people maybe who were innocent, but nobody is innocent in the system. And to me, I think the question becomes, there were plenty of enslaved people who did not do that, right, who found other ways to nonviolently resist. There were some people who just stayed alive, lived their lives. Like, there were so many different ways to do it. And I think, like, when it comes to Frankenstein's creation, I am compelled by him as this figure of resistance. Because I do think that sometimes you gotta get buck wild. I don't know. I don't know that I'm right. That's just, like, where I kind of was thinking about it. Like, how long are. Is he supposed to take? Everyone hating him and, like, him being told that he's the fucking worst and being kept away from other people and having no chance to be a human.

[Angela Flournoy]

Well, if we think about. So when this book was written and when it was published, it was 1807, when Britain like outlived, outlawed like the slate, the trade of slaves. It wasn't until 1880, 1833, that slavery itself was abolished. But between those two periods of times, like this conversation would have been very. Like, this is a conversation even, you know, 18, 19 year old Mary Shelley would have been party to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Very much so. So in the research I did, both she and Percy and her father were all abolitionists to the point, I believe that they did not eat sugar. That was like a kind of protest that people had at the time. Like, we don't eat sugar or they only ate sugar. That was like slave free sugar, like.

[Angela Flournoy]

A conflict free diamond.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, exactly, exactly. That was their, that was their thing. So, so she was party to it. But what I also found out in my research is that Percy Shelley was very concerned about the revenge of freed slaves. So like, once they were freed, he had this argument of like, well, of course they'll be vengeful, don't you think? And so some people read Frankenstein as a cautionary tale against releasing slaves willy nilly, like of total abolition. And then some people read it as a text in favor of the abolition of slavery. So sorry, back to your point.

[Angela Flournoy]

Well, I think that there's. It's interesting because the text, again, it does not suggest it was Willy nelly vengeance, like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Angela Flournoy]

It wasn't. And so was targeted.

[Tracy Thomas]

It was extremely targeted.

[Angela Flournoy]

And that's one of the most. Again, rereading this. I don't know why I thought that Frankenstein and his creation, that they reunite later, but they reunite like before more violence happens. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

So they, yes, they have three meetings.

[Angela Flournoy]

And he has an opportunity to take responsibility and he decides, I'm not doing that. Right, right. And so to me it seems like a text that is not about. It is not about, oh, you know, woe unto thee, that would free these slaves. As much as it's a text to like, what is your responsibility to people you have had in bondage? What is your responsibility to people who you've upended their lives and their children's lives? And Frankenstein is like, I don't owe him nothing. Right. That's basically his answer. And that's why what happens, happens.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, but then do we judge the creation for that? No.

[Angela Flournoy]

I mean, he's only seven years old. He's a baby.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, because I don't, I don't. I applaud the Creation for his targeted and specific violence and attacks on Frankenstein. I applaud him for his continued just relentless destruction. And also, you know, at the very, very end. So now I'm finally gonna get to plot at the end of our conversation. But at the very end, after Frankenstein, After Frankenstein meets the monster, and the monster is like, build me a lady, and I'll leave you alone. And then Frankenstein goes to build the lady. He's. At the very end, he's built the lady. He just hasn't.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like, like, get her hit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Litter up. He's like, you know what? I don't believe the monster. I don't believe the monster can change. The monster's up. He is inherently up.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I hate you.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm tearing up the lady. The monster's like, okay, babe, see you.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

On your wedding night.

[Angela Flournoy]

Right? Because the thing is, again, reparations. I'm not saying, you know, the incels reparation is the right one, but, yeah, he came looking to be repaired, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Angela Flournoy]

And Frankenstein decided not thinking about what was best for the creature, but thinking about his own interests or disinterest, etcetera, and was like. He said, yeah, I don't need this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, do I do the selfish thing and protect myself and my family, or do I rot these two creatures onto.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Humanity, which is sort of like this fake.

[Angela Flournoy]

Like. Like, all of a sudden, you care about humanity.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Yeah, yeah. It's giving. It's giving bullshit.

[Tracy Thomas]

But then the monster's like, see you on your wedding night.

[Angela Flournoy]

Bet.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

And Frankenstein's like, oh, he's gonna kill me on my wedding night.

[Tracy Thomas]

Obviously not Frankenstein. You're such a idiot. What good would it do to kill you? He wants you around. He wants you to be miserable like him. He kills Elizabeth. Duh. Your hot cousin.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Dirt girl slash friend, slash. You're not that into her because you're gonna Walton later. We don't know, but it could happen. Also, this book is so fucking queer.

[Tracy Thomas]

But anyways, we don't have time for that.

[Angela Flournoy]

But it's there.

[Tracy Thomas]

He. Then Frankenstein's like, fine, you killed Elizabeth. I will hunt you down until I kill you. So they're both, like, seeking revenge on each other, but everywhere that the monster goes is different places that are like difficult climates for Frankenstein. And weirdly, there's just, like, a bed.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Made up or, like, a bowl of porridge waiting for him or, like, a nice fire.

[Tracy Thomas]

And he's like, oh, all these kind vill managers, like, they want to support me in my efforts to cap, like, for whatever I'm doing. I tell Them, the story, they believe.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Me, they want to support me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Meanwhile, it's the creation who is keeping Frankenstein alive so that he has his attention. He's like, this is what it feels like to be loved. It's like, all press is good press.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

You know, he's deeply involved. He's like, I don't care.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's a five year old.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

He's literally like, I don't care. As long as mommy and daddy are yelling at me. That's better than mommy and Daddy ignoring me.

[Angela Flournoy]

Absolutely.

[Tracy Thomas]

And he keeps this man alive.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I. This is the thing that I think.

[Tracy Thomas]

Complicates all of it, right? Like, I. To me, it complicates a lot of the arguments or, like, allegorical interpretations that, like, Frankenstein could easily just have died. The monster could easily just be like, I will ruin you. But that, like, his survival is tied to the survival of Frankenstein.

[Angela Flournoy]

And also, interestingly, for a creature who, again, this is why I feel like the idea of what. What is this, this creation? And, like, what are his capabilities? He is just very smart and very methodical. Right? Like, he's. He has a plan. He doesn't have emotional maturity. But the book does not suggest that he is this sort of grotesque aberration who's like, uncivilized because he has figured out, like, he actually never really met this guy because this guy ran away from him immediately, but he figures him out. Like, he figures him out. Yes. The first thing with William is like.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is just luck, right?

[Angela Flournoy]

He's like, my daddy's name is Frankenstein. And you're like, oh, what are the odds?

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Like, I know him, right?

[Angela Flournoy]

But after that, it is, like, planning. And. It is. It is. I think you're supposed to be endeared to him, but. And also, like, horrified. But, man, it's a really good book.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's so good.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Okay, we have to go.

[Tracy Thomas]

We're, like, totally out of time. We did not. I just want to mention a few things that we did not talk about so that people know that we're at least thinking about them. We did not talk about this as the allegory for technology and the tech, bro, which is like a very modern reading.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

AI, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, all these people.

[Tracy Thomas]

I also want to just float this to you quickly. Donald Trump, Frankenstein or the creation?

[Angela Flournoy]

Oh, I mean, obviously the creation.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I think you could do it both ways. I think Frankenstein, I think he could be both the Frankenstein who has created this show, and he could also easily, easily be the creation of America. I mean, I think that is like such a good one. But I, I, I was thinking about him a lot, unfortunately, as I want to do when I read about horrible people. But we didn't really talk about this as an allegory for climate change either, which it very much is or can be read as. There's also obviously the God and man conversation which we didn't talk to. But that, that one I feel like is everywhere.

[Angela Flournoy]

Right. I mean that's, you know, modern day Prometheus modern.

[Tracy Thomas]

Exactly. And then in the 1930s and for 1940s specifically in 50s, this was read a lot to do with the atomic bomb.

[Angela Flournoy]

Of course.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was like the big technology of the time. I think anytime there's like a big technology that ends up kind of getting out of control, they, they bring back Frankenstein. But is there anything else that we didn't get to that you're just like dying to talk about?

[Angela Flournoy]

Let me see.

[Tracy Thomas]

In the end, Victor dies and then the monster rides off on a night piece of ice. Yes, he says he's gonna kill himself, but who knows?

[Angela Flournoy]

The thing that I would probably want to talk about more is like, you know, for a craft workshop, it's not for a book club, which is just how, how this, how this novel was built. That's for a different time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

I am so grateful to you for doing this with me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, this was such, just an amazing.

[Co-host or Guest (possibly another book club member)]

Experience for me from start to finish, reading the book, getting to talk to you about it. So thank you so much for being here.

[Tracy Thomas]

My pleasure. Everyone else, be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out our November book club pick and we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, thanks so much for listening and thank you again to Angela Flournoy for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Eliza Rosenberry for making this episode possible. All right, it's the moment you've been waiting for. Our November book club pick is we the Animals by Justin Torres. This novel is a coming of age story about three brothers growing up as as white and Puerto Rican and upstate New York. We will be discussing the book on the podcast on Wednesday, November 26th and you can tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. And thanks to our friends at Rep Club, you can get 10% off we the Animals by using the code STACKS10 at checkout. Just head to rep.club to order your copy. If you love the stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Stacks Pack and you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram Threads and Tick Tock. And now we're also on YouTube and you can check out our [e-mail] this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Twenya with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic Designer is Robin McRite and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.

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[Tracy Thomas]

Experian.