Sara Aziza (3:23)

Thank you so much. And I'm glad to hear I broke that streak.

Tracy Thomas (3:27)

You did. Because I had gotten to the mindset where I was like, maybe the genre of memoir is done. Like, maybe we've memoir enough. We have out memoir, memoir maybe. Maybe things die, things change. Like, maybe we have done it too much. And then I read your book and I said, well, some people can still write memoirs.

Sara Aziza (3:51)

Well, I'm touched and honored. Thank you.

Tracy Thomas (3:54)

So for people who don't know, will you just, in like, 30 seconds or so, tell us about the Hollow Half?

Sara Aziza (4:00)

Sure. So it's. It is a memoir, I guess, technically. But I do kind of, like, braid in a couple different genres. There's oral history and archive and dream work and speculative nonfiction, I like to say. But the general subject matter that it covers is three generations of my family from British mandate Palestine through 1948, the Nakba becoming refugees first in Gaza and then after 67, dispersed into Saudi Arabia, and then eventually, in my timeline, New York City. And just about exploring themes of mental health, diaspora. Yeah. And just like, the recovery and healing of, like, intergenerational love, I guess, to just go real big.

Tracy Thomas (4:47)

Yeah.

Sara Aziza (4:48)

Okay.

Tracy Thomas (4:48)

I want to come back to all of that, but I've never heard the term speculative nonfiction. Yeah, please say more. Sure.

Sara Aziza (4:54)

I think I probably picked it up somewhere. Or maybe it was just, you know, learning more about speculative fiction, but I sort of reached for that term. I think it was, like, maybe a residency application. I was writing early on in the process when I was trying to sort of capture what I was doing, which is it's drawn in some parts from Saidiya Hartman, who's a scholar who has this idea of critical fabulation. So this idea of, like, you spend a lot of time in research and the archives and other forms of like nonfiction reportage, but then there are moments of like, imaginative leaps or in some instances, because the book is also forward looking, just imagining towards sort of like meanings that cannot necessarily be factually, you know, codified or proven, but are sort of like, based around, like, the collaboration of like, ancestral work, imagination and research.

Tracy Thomas (5:52)

I love this. I love this term. I'm like, my brain is going now I'm trying to think of, like, other books that maybe are sort of. That also maybe are speculative nonfiction, but I feel like I'm drawing a blank, though. I'm sure there are things I have read. I'm just practicing processing as you're talking.

Sara Aziza (6:06)

Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, genre is always like a fiction in itself. But. But I like that term.

Tracy Thomas (6:11)

I do like that term. I feel like for what you've done, you know, I have a term, though. I don't. I don't know, maybe your book is this. I have a term that I like to use where I just call it memoir plus.

Sara Aziza (6:22)

Oh.

Tracy Thomas (6:22)

Which is like, it's memoir plus research plus other things, though. I don't, I don't. I don't have a clear enough definition in my head of what memoir plus is. And I don't know that yours is. I feel like the word braiding that you used is much more accurate. Like, this is definitely like a braided memoir because you're pulling on these different times and these different strands, and then also you're pulling on your own, like, sort of mental health and physical journey. Because the book sort of kicks off with you going into treatment for anorexia. And so. And that sort of is at least the way that I read it was sort of what. What prompted you to kind of go on this historical family journey. So could you talk about how those, like how your treatment led you to kind of look backwards into your family history?

Sara Aziza (7:08)

Sure, yeah. So the book does open on actually October 2019, entering into inpatient treatment for severe anorexia. And I sort of arrived at that point, like in my mid-20s of like, just basically almost at the point of death, to be totally honest, like, very medically physically compromised, but also in the state of, like, being so estranged from myself as far as, like, my mental and emotional state and really sort of like the shock of realizing the point, the low point that I had reached and the way that that kind of conflicted with the story of self that I'd had of, you know, I am a Third generation removed from like the Nakba. The disaster of like our, our ancestral lands being ethnically cleansed. And you know, my father was born in Gaza without shoes until he was six years old. All of those, you know, like the lore a lot of immigrant kids have of like, you're the lucky one, the privileged one. So how did I end up basically imploding in this way was like a question I really had no answer for at the time. And then I was confronted with this Western model of mental health, which is just like very individualistic. Like, let's focus on you, what happened to you in the last 20x years. And that's where we'll find the answer and we'll fix you. And just like that model, just really not holding what I was holding. And then into that comes a lot of memory that starts to jog. This, like, idea, the seed of like this, this must be about more than just me.

Tracy Thomas (8:37)

When did this become a book to you? When did your treatment and sort of looking back into your family and making these connections become something that you knew needed to be on the page versus just part of your process of life?

Sara Aziza (8:50)

Yeah, actually it was a really long time coming to admit that. I actually, before I was hospitalized, I was a journalist. I have a master's in journalism. So I was writing in sort of like a somewhat public way. I was young, getting started out, but I really left the hospital. I was there for four months. And it was a very carceral sort of experience and very demoralizing. And I left very humiliated. I don't think that was the point. Like they didn't mean to do that, but they didn't work really hard to keep us from feeling humiliated. It was very punitive. So I basically swore, among other things, that I would never write again because I just, I had internalized this idea of like, your mind's broken, you're crazy. And so doing anything public facing was completely mortifying to me.

Tracy Thomas (9:37)

Yeah.

Sara Aziza (9:39)

So I ended up, you know, the writing started sort of in this. And you know, you might hear me, you use a few kind of like woo words in this conversation. I live in la.

Tracy Thomas (9:49)

It's fine. I'm familiar with woo.

Sara Aziza (9:52)

Okay, so amazing.

Tracy Thomas (9:55)

Save space.

Sara Aziza (9:56)

Thank you. So I started having these dreams that I don't even know if they were exactly dreams, but I was waking up, I allude to them a little bit in the book, but waking up with sort of the sense of my grandmother being in the room and she at that point had been dead several years and I was sort of without Even fully waking up, finding myself actually at my partner's desk because I had gotten rid of my desk because I had quit writing. But I was at my partner's desk writing sort of in this dream, trance like state where, you know, out of nowhere, I was just trying to record these childhood memories that were coming back to me. And they were very visceral, physical memories. And then from there, you know, the pages just started adding up. And then I got curious because there were so many gaps in what I could remember and so many questions that were coming up about my grandmother's life. And so I started, you know, asking my father questions and then started to, like, tiptoe into just research. This was also, like, 2020, so pandemic time. So I was, like, secluded in this weird, like, dream slash, like, bookish research hole. And it was a dear friend of mine that, you know, eventually confronted me, like, gently with saying, you know, I think you're writing a book. And that was when, you know, it struck me so to my core, like, it was the split second difference between this recognition, this leap of recognition in my chest, and then this fear that came right after it to sort of clamp down on that. I'm like, no, I could never do that. I'm not a writer. So then it was a negotiation between those two forces for a while. But eventually, yeah, she was right.

Tracy Thomas (11:28)

The writer came back. Okay, let me ask you this. When you quit writing, you were like, I'm not a writer. I can't do it. Something's wrong with me. What were you professionally? Did you take other jobs? Were you just sort of just trying to survive? What was that interim period when you, like, weren't a writer?

Sara Aziza (11:46)

Yeah, I mean, I got discharged in February 2020.

Tracy Thomas (11:51)

Okay. Tough time to find a job.

Sara Aziza (11:54)

I know things were shifting a bit. I had filled out a few job applications. I really wanted to work at this wine shop down the street. I thought that could be fun and cool and I could learn about wine and. And mostly not talk to people and. Yeah, just, you know, sort of do odd jobs like that. Then when we were in, you know, remote work life, I just. I did some translation and, like, proofreading in Arabic for, like, some wire services and stuff. So, yeah, I was just stringing things along. And then, you know, by like, 2021, I was like, back, you know, slowly in the journalism, slash, writing space.

Tracy Thomas (12:32)

So you went back to journalism before the book came out?

Sara Aziza (12:35)

Yeah, I mean, I. I wasn't calling myself a journalist because for some reason, having that mental separation helped I was saying I was a writer, so I was getting more into, like, essays and, like, analysis. My first essay was about my grandmother, but I used my grandmother to talk about capitalism and relationships to time. But, yeah, no, I was just, like, you know, finding different ways for me to, like, trick myself into writing again. So I was. I was doing essays. I wasn't a journalist.

Tracy Thomas (13:01)

Yeah, totally. I get it. I'm not a writer, even though I write things all the time, but I'm not a writer.

Sara Aziza (13:05)

Whatever you tell yourself.

Tracy Thomas (13:07)

Yeah, I'm just not a writer. I don't like it, and I don't ever like it, and I don't ever want to be one. I just write. So, like, I have the same kind of thing, which is. Which is different. I used to run, and I instantly was like, I'm a runner.

Sara Aziza (13:21)

Oh.

Tracy Thomas (13:21)

Even though, you know, like, you know, like, I have no problem saying, like, things that I do. I am. But for some reason, with the writer, I'm just like, I'm not a writer, I think, because I don't want people to judge me in the same way that I judge writers, because I'm like, well, I'm not that, Like, I don't care. I know it's bad. I know my writing sucks, so I feel like I understand the sort of, like, mental. Like, I'm not a journalist even though I'm doing journalism, or, like, I'm not a writer even though I write.

Sara Aziza (13:47)

Totally.

Tracy Thomas (13:47)

It's a weird. It's a weird. I get it. I don't know. I appreciate that.

Sara Aziza (13:51)

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not.

Tracy Thomas (13:52)

People, like, get mad at you when they're like, but you are a writer. I'm like, no, I'm not a writer.

Sara Aziza (13:58)

I mean, it is your journey. It is your. You know, it's like our pronouns, you know, you get to claim what you.

Tracy Thomas (14:05)

You get to decide who you want to be.

Sara Aziza (14:06)

Totally.

Tracy Thomas (14:07)

Yeah, totally.

Sara Aziza (14:08)

I wouldn't wish the writer's life on anyone, so.

Tracy Thomas (14:11)

Yeah, well, I'm not one, so I don't have.

Sara Aziza (14:12)

Exactly. No, you're good.

Tracy Thomas (14:14)

But it's funny because I'm like, I think it's way more embarrassing to be a podcaster, but I have no problem being like, I'm a podcaster, but it. Since 2020, has gotten embarrassing.

Sara Aziza (14:22)

Oh, well, your. Your podcast is a good one. We want it so.

Tracy Thomas (14:26)

Well. They just let all these guys have microphones.

Sara Aziza (14:28)

Oh, I know. There should be a different word. It's like, I'm not that.

Tracy Thomas (14:32)

I'm not you guys. I'm. I talk about books. Like, I'm not, I'm not a total egomaniac. Okay. So one of the things that your book does that is different and cool, and I, a few of my other favorite books do this, which is you use footnotes in a really different way than a traditional footnote. Some of your footnotes are, like, little essays or, like, little, you know, like, they're little micro informations, and some of them are just, you know, sentences. But I'm wondering how you were thinking about footnotes when you decided the footnotes were necessary, how robust you wanted to make them. Just talk about the footnote situation.

Sara Aziza (15:19)

Thank you. I, I, I'm grateful for this question because it was, there was an evolution there. One of the things that I feel like is really important to me as, like, a person now, but also as a writer is sort of, like, undermining this idea of the author as, like, this single, like, voice of authority and also, like, just a human being as an individual, you know, enclosed entity. I think that we're all just, like, very porous and we're all poured into. And, like, the creations that we make, whether it's podcasts or writing or relationships, like, are all built from, like, the materials that are recycled from what we read or who raised us or what we've consumed in culture. So I really wanted the story to, the word I use is jostle. I wanted it to not feel like I'm just this declarative voice constantly speaking with total confidence. So there are some footnotes that complicate or complement what I'm saying in a way that I found was interesting. So, you know, I'm not, you know, I know when you have an identity that is just other than, like, CIS white male people might come to your book and think, like, this is the Palestinian perspective, or this is the female or the queer. So I wanted there to be lots of Palestinians that people were getting introduced to, just, just other canons in general. I wanted to also pay homage and sort of honor, like, the people who taught me how to think in certain ways, who I'm directly drawing from. So Zada Hartman is one of them. Christina Sharpe. Like, there's a lot of, like, black feminist thinkers that really influenced me, so I felt like they needed to be, they needed to be visible for, you know, that was important to me. And so there's a lot of footnotes that I really, I ended up putting as endnotes because I wanted them to have, you know, just, like, their own space. And it was a little messy when I tried putting them all on the pages as footnotes underneath. So I ended up making this sort of distinction for myself that the goodies, as I like to think of them, like the jewels, the resources, the good stuff, the stuff that I'm really excited to share with my readers are in the back. So you can go to the back on your own time, whether in the middle of the reading or at the end, and just like really spend time with these writers. And they're sort of like, you know, organized by chapter. So there's like an interesting, to me, like, conversation that you can read there. And also just. It's just like a little bit of a, you know, if you take the time, you'll be rewarded by going to the back. But then there were other things I didn't want readers to be let off the hook on. For example, a lot of the political footnotes about this is the way in which the US funded. If you see my family getting displaced or killed, there might also be a footnote that's a quote from the US President at that time that was boasting about sending arms to Israel or. Yeah, just like horrible racist, like Supreme Court decisions that were made in like the 1900s about immigrants and who's classified as what race and things like that. Because I wanted again, like the structural, like, complexity and also like responsibility of especially like an English speaking slash American reader. I wanted them to feel that way. It sort of complicating their relationship so it's not just like this distant, like, well, that happened to those people and it has nothing to do with me. And I'm just like voyeuristically looking in. But like, so there are those footnotes that are like at the bottom of the page. So there's. You have to skip over it and you have to feel yourself skipping over it if you're not gonna like, take responsibility and read it. So those are some of the things that are happening there.

Tracy Thomas (19:04)

Yeah, I wanna just. Because I know a lot of my listeners are audiobook people and I did listen to this book on audio and I wanna just say you do an amazing job narrating. And also if you are thinking of listening to this book on audio, I suggest you also get a copy, a physical copy from your online or whatever because of the way that it's structured with the footnotes and the endnotes. They don't. They're not like in the audiobook. You have to listen to all the footnotes at the end. So it makes sense to kind of like bounce in between both forms. I usually feel like you totally fine doing one or the other. But with this, I'm like, if you're gonna do audio, you also want to do physical in some way because of how the footnotes function as sort of like. Like a confrontation, I think is maybe.

Sara Aziza (19:54)

Oh, thank you.

Tracy Thomas (19:55)

Their way of saying it.

Sara Aziza (19:56)

I appreciate that. Yeah, it was tricky to figure that part out.

Tracy Thomas (19:59)

It's hard. It's really hard. And I think, you know, I. I know as an audiobook person and as a person who talks to a lot of audiobook people, if the footnotes, like, were inserted in, it wouldn't work story wise. So I understand the choice, but I'm definitely like, if you're going to listen to get even more out of the book, you also want to. To get your eyes on, if possible. You mentioned the black feminist scholars, and that was obviously something that like, jumped out to me in the reading of the book. And I'm just curious, like, when did their work come to you? When did it come in your career? How did you know that it was going to be important to have these other voices? And it's not just black feminist scholars. There's. I mean, I feel like Vietnam winds in here in some of the end notes. Like, it's like you said, many Palestinian voices. But I am interested specifically in the black feminist scholars.

Sara Aziza (20:53)

Absolutely. Well, a lot. A lot of those voices had been sort of like in my ear since college. One of my best friends in college, her name is Elise Mitchell, she's now a professor of Africana Studies, I believe is like the official title. But she and I, I feel like intellectually were sort of like growing. You know, we met our first week as fresh as freshmen and had a lot of, you know, great conversations about what we were reading and learning. And not just her, but I think like, I was involved in, like, Black Lives Matter activism. That was like my start. And also I majored in complex comparative literature, which involved a little bit of critical theory. So I feel like there's certain names like bell hooks or Audre Lorde that I can't remember not knowing about. And then a little bit more contemporary. I don't remember how. I. I think it was an essay by Carmen Maria Machado that referenced Saidiya Hartman. That opened me up to that essay, Venus in Two Acts, that opened me up to more of Saidia's work. Christina Sharpe I came across because I think I heard Natalie Diaz, the indigenous poet scholar reference in the Wake. And in the Wake ended up being a very formative book for me. And so you sort of start to build this web. You start to hear people referencing each other and you stumble. Maybe you're at a physical bookstore and you see who else is on the shelf or the library. So some of it was very organic. Some of it was seeking out some of it. I had a phone call with Elise. She was working on her first book, which is a scholarly book about the Middle Passage, just as I was writing about the Necba. So we were really like, going through it. So, yeah, her work has a lot to do with like, epidemiology and like the black body. And she's brilliant. So, yeah, if you're into any of that, I highly recommend.

Tracy Thomas (22:40)

Let me ask you then, I guess the second part of this question, which is sort of how do you see yourself and your work in this lineage?

Sara Aziza (22:48)

Very, very, like, grateful, wide eyed, like little sister. Like, I definitely don't put myself in league with these people necessarily. But yeah, I just think I see myself as, in conversation, I see myself as like, wanting to always, like, own that, you know, I'm an American citizen or a U.S. citizen, often white passing in most spaces and yeah, just have. Have privileges that put me in. Yeah, I'm not always like, you know, Vietnam talks about this too. Like, when does the refugee become the settler? Like, I'm in this complicated space of just like the intersection of like, in some ways, Palestinians are some of the most demonized people right now. Muslims are also, you know, in this really vulnerable, demonized place. But I also benefit from like, systematic oppression that is built on, you know, centuries before my people were dispossessed, there was a genocide here. You know, there is like just this, like, historic and ongoing, like, exploitation and violence of black bodies. And so I want my. Yeah, I want my responsibility to be owned as much as my, like, families victimization and our struggle for liberation, that's incomplete. And I just think that there's a lot of systems that are really invested in us not recognizing the ways that our oppressions and our privileges are sort of intertwined and we're meant not to be in solidarity and kinship with each other. But I also think that there needs to be the reckoning of who has been indirectly or directly a part of harming another. Um, so, yeah, just. It's a complicated, ongoing thing and I, I want to keep. Yeah, keep responsible and keep honest about that.

Tracy Thomas (24:29)

I feel like the ways in which you brought all these voices together in your book was really powerful for me as someone who sort of, you know, I'm very type A and so I'm really good at like putting things in boxes and in places. And so for me, so many of the voices that you sort of call on and commune with throughout the book are people whose work I've and maybe have thought about them in their own compartment. That fits whatever, you know, identity markers you want to put them in. But kind of having these different voices that you've pulled together was really exciting for me. Of like, of course this is actually the same exact conversation. It's just happening in this country or happening with people who, you know, look like this or people who talk like this, or people who believe this. But it really is the same conversation. And I think sometimes when I'm talking to people in my real life about politics that those connections are easier to make. But sometimes when I'm reading a book, I do fall into the trap of like, this is a book by a Palestinian American woman and like, this is about her life in America and her family in Palestine. But it's like, of course this is also about much bigger things and it is in conversation with bell hooks or it is in conversation with, I don't know, whoever. You know, Kia say layman, right? Like, it's like you call on all of these names. You know, he's crowd fan favorite here at the.

Sara Aziza (25:51)

Oh, totally. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (25:52)

Yeah, but that. So I think the ways that you did it really did resonate for me of like, yes, of course these things, like all come together. I want to take a break because I want to totally shift topic. Or not totally shift, but I want to shift a little bit. So we're going to take a break and then we'll come right back. And just like that, it is giving season every week. I look forward to giving you guys an opportunity to immerse yourself in books and all things reading. And if you love listening to the Stacks as much as I love creating it for you, consider supporting us on Patreon and Substack 2. On Patreon you can join the Stacks community, the Stacks Pack. We've got book club meetups, a private discord, and a year long mega reading challenge to help you push your reading goals. Plus, members get exclusive bonus episodes every month and sometimes they even get two over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked, where you will get those bonus episodes and where I keep the bookish conversations going along with a healthy dose of pop culture roundups and and a few hot takes. There's a free option as well to get a little dose of the Stacks magic. Making this podcast is a team effort and by supporting my Patreon and Substack, you allow me to support my crew. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers and support this indie podcast, come hang out with me on Patreon Substack or both. I would love to have you head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and Tracy Thomas substack.com for unstacked there's a lot to be thankful for this time of year. Spending time with family and friends, eating delicious home cooked meals, getting the chance to slow down. Personally, I'm thankful I get paid to do what I love most, which is read. But when I started the Stacks, I quickly learned there was a lot more to having my own business than just reading books. So I needed a tool that would allow me to spend less time sorting through logistics and more time turning those pages. That's why I want to introduce you to Shopify. Shopify is an e commerce platform that powers millions of businesses across the us. This is an all in one tool which has everything you need to build your business and help it run smoothly, including inventory management, payment processing and even built in sales and marketing tools. Just use one of the hundreds of ready to go templates to build your online store and you're all set. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com thestacks go to shopify.com thestacks shopify.com thestacks.

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Tracy Thomas (29:05)

Okay, we're back. I want to talk about so the subtitle of your book is A memoir of Bodies and Borders and I'm going to be honest with you. I my sister in law told me about the book. She was like I'm reading this book. I love it. You should check it out. I got it. It took a few months. I finally read it. I also loved it after I finished the book I called her. I was like, I want to talk about it. Because I'm really. I. I think I missed the Bodies and Borders thing. And she was like, no, it's this. It's that. It's this. So I want to. And then I was like, oh, I didn't miss it. I just don't think I would have, like, framed it that way. But I want to hear you talk about how you see this book as body, about bodies and borders and how those things fit together for you.

Sara Aziza (29:47)

Okay. Yeah. I love that. And, you know, authors don't necessarily pick the subtitles, so.

Tracy Thomas (29:53)

I know. I figured. Also, not that.

Sara Aziza (29:54)

Yeah. But, like, no, no, no. I do question.

Tracy Thomas (29:56)

When she drew the connection for me or she was helping me through it, I was like, oh, yeah, I did see that.

Sara Aziza (30:02)

Okay. Oh, I'm so curious. I would have loved to hear that conversation. But so I think bodies, it's. It's obvious in some ways, right? Like, you mean, you see my body, like, from the beginning. Like, that's a focal point. Like, you watch my body almost die, come back to life in this really complicated way. There's periods where, like, things are showing up, whether it's chronic pain or chronic illness. My body is, like, speaking a lot. And this book and recovery has really been a process of realizing, like, the body is a language. It's an archive. It's a community. There's, like, so much that we can discover and learn from our bodies. And, you know, my body is what continued to point me back to just, like, the bodies that I come from. What. What did my grandmother's body actually go through? Like, at the beginning of the book, I'm remembering my grandmother as this soft, warm embrace. And, you know, she fed us this, like, visceral source of comfort. But then we get deeper and we realize, you know, how many Palestinian bodies we've lost in since, you know, in the last century from, like, British colonialism, like Zionist colonialism, things like that. And my body is not separate, even if I wasn't physically there. So there's a lot of. Just, like, that. That history coming, disrupting the present, and my body sort of being that portal to recognizing and understanding that to begin with, and really just grounding even my father and grandmother's story through. You know, that was a lot of how I conducted my research, was imagining into pouring myself this sort of the speculative nonfiction, learning everything I could about my grandmother's life, doing a ton of research to understand what the material conditions were, understanding, like, how those things intersected in this one Woman's life. And then I think just like, the body being an incredible vehicle, you know, I tried to write, like, close to. You know, close to the bone in a sort of way of, like, what would it have really been like to live her life while also leaving a lot of gaps and recognizing I cannot know her experience fully. But there was this sort of sense of, like, collaboration with her memory in that way. And then borders. I mean, there's a lot of borders. The hollow half. Like, the half is a big theme of this idea of, like, this sense of, like, separation from my identity as Palestinian, from the land. The border keeping us from our land, the borders that we draw around a single life. Thinking, like, well, that. That isn't so much my concern. I didn't live that experience. Just all of these ideas, like, borders in the. In the material, like, political sense, but also just all the. All the lines we draw around, like. Like you just said, like, that's those people's experience, and that was my father's life. And. Yeah, just borders and nations and, like, the violence of the nation state and keeping people apart and just all the ways these things sort of, like, intersect. That was, like, a bit of an free association. There's more to it, I think. But I'm curious if any of those resonate or if that made sense.

Tracy Thomas (33:07)

Yeah, for sure they do. I think one of the ones that I started thinking about a lot was the way that the personal and the political. There are borders between those things and that those are their own bodies. And the ways that we sort of keep. The ways that personal and political are both their own bodies and have their own borders and, like, how that works, because I think, you know, and there are parts of the book, and I won't. There's not a lot to spoil, but I won't spoil anything. But, like, your political awakening in college and sort of, like, the way that you sort of bring your body to, like, activism, I thought was really interesting. I do want to ask you a question, and I don't know if this is, like, polite, so I'm sorry if it's not. But I'm curious about as a person who, like, has suffered from anorexia or, like, and, like, eating disorders and these things that are so much about your own body, what it has been like for you to be publicly talking about these things and, like, knowing that people are seeing you and perceiving you in ways that I just have to imagine is difficult because you're so vulnerable in the book. So how is that, then for you That's a.

Sara Aziza (34:17)

That's just a really astute question. I thought. I thought a lot about it right before the book came out. I tried not to think about it before then, you know, because, like, while I was. While I was writing, I was like, I just want to do what I feel like the book needs me to do to really, like, honestly reckon and, like, explore these ideas again. We already named him, but Casey Lehman is, like, really instructive to me. Like, his book, heavy the way, you know, it's not. It's so easy to just think about a reader's voyeurism and just, like, expose yourself in a way that's just like, yeah, this will. I mean, some of the agents I talked to before I found the agent I worked with, like, really wanted to, like, exploit even more, if you can imagine, because I am very vulnerable.

Tracy Thomas (34:59)

I can't imagine. I'm like, wait, I don't want to know more.

Sara Aziza (35:02)

I don't feel right.

Tracy Thomas (35:03)

I know enough.

Sara Aziza (35:05)

Yeah, we're good. But, yeah, just really sort of like, there's this, like, almost like, fetishistic way you can talk about a woman's collarbones and body and just sort of like this suffering, like, overly feminine, like, experience of, like, a single woman being faint and weak and then maybe eating and enjoying herself or something. But I really. I brought my body in. I kind of used it. I kind of referenced it earlier. It's a text. It's a language. As I was learning it, I really wanted the reader to have the pieces that I did, to be able to think as seriously about trauma and trauma across time and those sort of visceral connections and the way our bodies tell the truth about the nation we live in now. Again, Casey's book is an amazing, amazing example of that, but just the way bodies show up and tell us things. So that was why I decided to put as much of me on the page as I did. I think I privileged the story and the thought and the exploration that I wanted to present to readers more than. Because one thing that really drove the book, I think, again, before I even knew it was a book, was I needed to understand things differently. I didn't needed. Not exactly answers, but I needed to reorient myself and the way I understood the world and my. And. And. And my body and things like that. And as I was starting to put these things together, I was so blown away that I had to. To draw these, you know, I had to build this whole map, right? This web of, you know, over a hundred, you know, different thinkers and writers, you know, and like years of therapy and listening to my body and all of these, like, somatic things. I'm like, I wish I had been given any of these tools or any of these frameworks or a different way to think about myself or my body. So I really wanted to share as much of that as a resource just to be out in the world as just like one more place that somebody might stumble upon and like, learn a little bit. Like maybe, you know, take some, you know, solace and comfort or like wisdom, you know, without having to earn it the way I kind of paid for it. But to answer your question, I remember I reminded myself throughout the process that this was an important priority for me. There are definitely things I didn't put in the book, but I did kind of. I put myself out a bit on a limb, but it's because I really believed in the message and the art. And so I've just. I've been lucky that I've been able to intentionally choose, like, where I have appeared publicly. They've been mostly in very supportive spaces, local bookstores, libraries, groups like that. And then I think also because we have this ongoing genocide and people are so acutely aware of the violence that's happening to Palestinians right now, I think people have come even more with tenderness towards me. So I've been grateful that I haven't. And I also don't read comments or reviews or wherever those things might be happening. So so far, as much as I felt pretty self conscious and exposed about my body, the way people directly interact with me has always been just like, very supportive and kind. And even the questions have been almost always more about the book and the work than my individual physical experience, which I'm grateful for because I was bracing for more invasive conversations.

Tracy Thomas (38:26)

Yeah, well, that's why I was like, this might not be a polite question.

Sara Aziza (38:29)

No, you didn't. Polite way, I think. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (38:32)

Okay. Okay, good. I just. I'm just so curious about it because I think, like, just being public, period is challenging. Right? Like, just being a person who puts things into the world and has to answer questions or has to be on a stage or whatever can be very challenging for most people. And I think, you know, and I think honestly, when I talked to Kiese about Heavy years ago, I had a similar question for him, which is like, what is it like for people to be staring at your body when you are writing about your relationship healthy and unhealthy with your body? Like, when I talk to authors who, like, write fiction or write about certain Parts of their life. I don't ask them questions about things that aren't in the book that are personal, even though I want to know because I'm nosy. But when you put your body in your book, I feel like, okay, well, that's fair game for me. In the same way that when I talked to Kamala Harris, she talked about their failure about Palestine. And so I felt like that makes that a fair game question for me. And so I think, like, when you're writing about your body and struggles that you have in controlling it or not controlling and all of these things, but I'm also thinking, like, well, if this is something that's hard for you, it's probably hard to talk about it also with strangers. So I don't know. I just. I'm always curious about that kind of conundrum.

Sara Aziza (39:51)

Yeah, no, I've. Being open, I really. I mean, the book came out in April, so I had several months of, like, tour. Like, it was very front loaded. I'm still doing events, but it was, like, very intense in, like, May, June.

Tracy Thomas (40:04)

Yeah.

Sara Aziza (40:04)

And I was in total shock at first. And I realized what the shock was, was the difference between being a writer and being an author is very surreal and strange, especially in this, like, world where, like, you know, people want you at least to have a social media presence and be doing all these different things. And it's a very. I mean, I'm a little bit of a more extroverted person as far as writers go, but it's a. It's a. It's an asset. I think about it a lot. Like, there are people who have, like, you know, really severe anxiety and things like that. And, like, the world is not as receptive or understanding of those things. So if I was any less outgoing, it would have been, I think, worse. But yeah, no, it's. It is. It is a weird thing, but I think it's because at my core, I'm a writer that I was like, the book needs me to go here. So Sarah, Sara will figure this out later. The book wants to go there. And for better or worse, there were some rough days.

Tracy Thomas (41:00)

For sure. I get it. I get it. I want to talk about the genocide in Palestine briefly. The most current iteration from 2023 kind of to the present, that doesn't really show up in the book. So the book takes us to 2020 or, like into 2020 a little bit past. I want to know as a writer, as a storyteller, knowing what world your book is entering versus what time frame you're talking about in the book, how you were thinking about what you were saying, what you were saying to your audience, versus, like, what was contemporaneous in the moment, I think is sort of the question.

Sara Aziza (41:40)

It's a really, really good question. Yeah, and it was a really tough question for me. I sold the book in, I think it was like May or something of 2023. And it was like semi proposal. I don't know, it was like several chapters had been written and then there was an outline for the rest. And then October 7th happened. And then, honestly, I used the word genocide on October 16th. And that's not because I'm a scholar of genocide. It's because I'm a Palestinian whose family is in Gaza. And I know the math. So from the very beginning, you know, I was like. And I have, like a monitor and a laptop. So I was. It was like split screen. I was like, trying to write Palestine alive while I was watching Palestine die. I was trying to write Gaza. I was trying to resurrect parts of Gaza that I had spent years, like, getting the pieces together. And I was trying to put them together. And I was watching those same buildings fall. I was watching the trees that my father was born under, like, destroyed. And I mean, it was just unbelievably, still is unbelievably painful. But it was acute in a different way then. I was publishing a lot on the outside of the book project and I was going to protest and I was talking to family and I was counting our dead, and I was trying to write this book. And so, yeah, knowing it was going to come out in 2025, I mean, it was just impossible to know. But also it was also very possible to know there was going to be so much loss. At least by then. I was watching eventually us going towards 2024 and elections and things like that. And I was finishing the book in 2024. So I thought about it, but it didn't make sense for me to try to leap into 2024, 2025. It would have felt forced and clumsy and it would have anyway been obsolete in its own way by the time it came out. So I decided to stay true to sort of like the arc that made sense, which is where I arrived as someone who I felt like had at least come to some arrival about how I now relate to Palestine and my identity. And it's about a position and a form of understanding. The responsibility of love, I feel, is really a huge part of this journey. So I ended up changing. This is where I really should be getting to. I ended up changing the last third of the book. I had a completely different last chapter, and then the end. Epilogue was not a part of my plan. But what I decided was I really wanted readers to leave the book with what I thought was the equipment to look at the world today. There was plenty of history already in the book, but I wanted people to have more of an understanding of just all of the obstacles that Palestinians have faced in their fight for self determination and also all the ways in which Zionism has sort of foreshadowed something like this. Because if you look at the founding fathers of Israel and the Zionist thinkers, many of them have talked about and praised, theoretically, the idea of driving every Arab out. So in so many ways, there are so many people scratching their heads, we have no idea where all of this came from and why are these things happening. And I wanted to give people. That's why I changed the last chapter to be called resistance, because there's always been resistance. And we've tried everything from nonviolent mass, like demonstrations to hijacking planes to get people's attention. You know, like Khalid, she said, like, we had to hijack planes. They didn't kill any. Like, people think hijacking, they think 9, 11. They would hijack planes, land them as a way of getting on national news because Palestine had basically been dismissed by the world. And she said we needed people's attention. And I'm not like, I'm not advocating for hijacking planes, but people look at these isolated incidents of, like, you know, why don't the Arabs want peace? Or like, how could Israel do this? And I'm like, actually, all of the pieces have been in play. And I think that, like, if you really look at the history, you recognize that some form of resistance is natural and called for in order to, you know, just sort of like, be honest about what the power dynamics are, that Palestinians are unarmed people who have no control over their borders, who have been dismissed and used and played with by on the global political scene for all of these years. And basically we're at an impasse. And yeah, I just. I just wanted people to understand how many doors have been shut and how many traps have been laid and why. Why there hasn't been, quote, unquote, peace yet. And just sort of like, set people up to understand that, like, we're in this unsustainable, again, impasse where if Israel had its way, it would just continue to delay while they colonize the West Bank. And then, yeah, perhaps ethnically cleanse or genocide, Gaza. And their dream is Greater Israel, which includes Syria and Iraq, and if they have their way. So I wanted to set people up with what I thought was a more complete and often overlooked history and so they could understand a bit more the events today. And I think that resistance in some form is the highest form of love when the world as it exists is hostile to a dignified, safe life for the people that you love, whether it's black people in America or it's Palestinians in Palestine. Like resistance is called for if, if the reality is violent and hostile to life.

Tracy Thomas (47:05)

Yeah. When I posted about your book the first time and you like commented and I had kind of compared it to Frankenstein because I was reading Frankenstein at the time and when I said that I wasn't quite sure, but have to say after finishing both books, I mean there's certainly a conversation between what you're talking about, especially the last section, especially the resistance, especially the relationship between, you know, the creator and the creation. Though it doesn't quite exactly map on because Palestine existed before, you know, the creation of Israel. But that there is this, this like deeply intimate relationship between people and place that has, has a response, you know, like that. I don't know. So I, I sort of, that was sort of a half baked idea when I put it on the Internet. But in thinking about it, I, I've been thinking about it a lot more and I, I think I can stand by it now.

Sara Aziza (48:02)

I mean, I think it's, I think it's a really incredible and amazing comparison. And you know, I was reading something about Frankenstein the other day and they were talking about how it was commentary on like, just like the apocalyptic nature of the modern world and man's relationship to technology and things like that. And yeah, we're in this ghoulish. The world right now, honestly is built on some very ghoulish, violent realities. And people like Palestinians, I think people there are certain population groups that I think make uncomfortably plain for the rest of the world the reality of what our, what our current system relies on, you know, and I think that, I think when black people rise up, like it's a reminder, like it's a, it's a haunting of like this, this, this, this country's past. And Palestinians are sort of like a contemporary haunting of settler colonialism, this unfinished business of you're trying to dispossess people violently from their land. And when you, when people have an ancient relationship with their land, they don't leave easily. They will fight till their last breath. And that's an understanding that I think somehow so many people don't understand, and they want us to be. You know, I mean, I think so many marginalized people have been given some version of this. Why can't you just be polite and behave and do it like the.

Tracy Thomas (49:14)

And be happy with what you have?

Sara Aziza (49:15)

Yeah, yeah. What we white, you know, like, masters of the world decide are the scraps that you should have. Yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, I'm for it, and.

Tracy Thomas (49:26)

I love for it. When I finished the book, I was like, well, this is an allegory for basically everything. So I feel like. I mean, because we did it for a book club for October. So I've been thinking about the book a ton. I actually can't stop thinking about the book. I can't stop seeing it in every little thing. But I think one of. One of, for me, one of the easiest. Because a lot of the allegories don't quite map onto it all the way. Like, it's like, okay. But I do feel like Palestinians as the creation. Feels like a very easy argument to make. Right. And, like, similarly, I. I'm sort of shocked, to be honest with you, that Frankenstein hasn't become sort of like the text of revolutionaries. Right. Like, that more people don't put it next to, like, Angela Davis. Like, I'm just, like. It to me, feels like such a revolutionary text and, like, a call for resistance. Anyway, I want to do, like, such a hard shift, which is so annoying, but we have to get here, which is. How do you write? Where are you? How often? How many hours a day? Music or no snacks or beverages?

Sara Aziza (50:38)

Rituals?

Tracy Thomas (50:39)

All of it?

Sara Aziza (50:40)

Oh, yeah, it's. It sort of weirdly shifts around for me. For the longest time, it was, like, early morning was the best time because I can get so, like, caught up in everything. So getting up early when the world is quieter. I'm really grateful that I have a room that's sort of, like, dedicated to writing, because we have three rooms in our little Brooklyn apartment, and we have no kids, so one of them can be for writing. So I can go in there and know that it'll be quiet. And I have a desk. It's a pretty big one. It's. Sometimes, you know, I have one of those collapsible. It can be a standing. Can be a sitting. Because I've got the chronic pain stuff I'm dealing with. Definitely. Things are around me. Sometimes it's snacks. I like salty and crunchy. So, like, pretzels, nuts, things like that. But lots of tea. Like, it's embarrassing. Sometimes I'll kind of tea talk.

Tracy Thomas (51:36)

Tea. I love when someone says tea. Anytime someone says coffee, I'm like, move on. But tea, let's talk.

Sara Aziza (51:41)

All right. Pu erh tea. Is that what it has? Or Pu erh, I think, is what it's called. It's like this fermented black Chinese. You know, it's really earthy.

Tracy Thomas (51:50)

Somebody else talked about that.

Sara Aziza (51:51)

I need to make sure I'm pronouncing it right. But it's really good. It's got, like, caramel notes and stuff, so it's pretty strong. But I think it's, like, a little smoother than, like, a coffee. Okay, then. Lots and lots of metamia, which is sage tea, which I talk about my grandmother serving us. It's. It's, yeah. Herbal and very soothing and. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (52:15)

Do you think things in your tea, do you put, like a honey or a cream or anything?

Sara Aziza (52:20)

Yes, I'll put. I'll put like a oat milk or something in the black teas. And then sage sort of just wants to be on its own. Although sometimes I mix it with peppermint tea. But I make, like, a pot of sage and peppermint together. It's just. We're doing a lot of cooling off of the psychic system. So these, like, cooling teas are good for me and, like, just tons of water. I think when I'm anxious, which is most of the time because I'm writing about these sort of things that are hard. I'm also, like, drinking a lot of water.

Tracy Thomas (52:52)

Do you have any rituals that take you out of the writing back into the world?

Sara Aziza (52:57)

Yeah, that's important. It can be as simple as, like, I. I live on a quiet street, but I can walk a couple streets down. And there's, like, a really noisy street with, like, 10 supermarkets and stuff. And I. Sometimes I just need to be, like, jostled. Like, I use that word at the beginning. I'm just like, yeah. Oh, get out of your head. Like, look at. There's literally hundreds of people, like, living their own dramatic lives. It just, like, sort of, like, brings me out. I'll like, yeah, just think of a random mirror and I'm like, go mail a letter or something. Just so I can, like, be in the world for a second. Or there's a dog park that I'll go watch. Puppies. I don't have my own puppy. I have a cat. But just anything that, like, gets me into someone else's subjectivity for a second.

Tracy Thomas (53:34)

Yeah.

Sara Aziza (53:35)

Or I'll. I'll do Some like, breathing exercises.

Tracy Thomas (53:38)

Okay. Any words you can't spell correctly on the first try?

Sara Aziza (53:41)

Bureaucracy.

Tracy Thomas (53:43)

Oh, impossible.

Sara Aziza (53:44)

Hands down. Yeah, that's the only one that comes to mind. There's plenty. I also.

Tracy Thomas (53:48)

That's right. That's a good one. That's a good one. Do you know what comes next for you?

Sara Aziza (53:55)

I would like to. I can't say that I know. Although, like, I'm. I'm working on some essays now. There was just a lot of, like, thinking that I've been doing over the past two years of like, what's our relationship to witness having so much exposure to these. You know, they call it the first live stream genocide. Not the first genocide, but the first live streamed real time genocide. Yeah. So to have so much insight and exposure into these, like, deeply intimate, deeply violent moments in people's lives and be intertwined with it in some ways and also feel so helpless, how do we wrestle through that sense of helplessness and what's most ethical way to move through this technological age of mass violence? So I've been writing some about that and doing some research I would love to do. I've been writing poetry very privately. I would love to do something in more poetry, fiction, but this nonfiction muscle is like, very active.

Tracy Thomas (54:48)

Yeah, yeah, I, I eagerly await whatever that is.

Sara Aziza (54:53)

Oh, thank you.

Tracy Thomas (54:55)

What about. The book's been out for a while. I don't always get to ask this question, but I am curious who's like the coolest person to you who's expressed interest or talked about the book in the world?

Sara Aziza (55:05)

Oh, wow, that's a, That's a good one. There have been a few, A few really touching ones, I think just Palestinians, like, far and wide that have gotten this book into their hands. It's just really moving to hear that they've found it moving. I think I was really honored that kiesei read and blurbed it early on. That was a huge wow moment. There's a couple others that I'm blanking on, but just people who, I deeply admire their intellect, who've mentioned that they enjoyed my book and I'm just like, like, you know, starstruck. But I mean, nerdy ones. Nerdy ones. Like, yeah, of course.

Tracy Thomas (55:44)

This is a nerdy podcast.

Sara Aziza (55:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy Thomas (55:48)

Is there anything that's not in the book that you wish could have been?

Sara Aziza (55:53)

No, I think it, I think it's doing enough. I think, you know, there's like, more to be explored where, when it comes to like, queerness, desire, pleasure, those were some of the things that I took out to make room for the resistance chapter, because I think resistance needs to be foregrounded. But desire and pleasure, all of those things are integral. And they're really. I say it in the epilogue. Those are Palestinian, too. It's not just our grief and our suffering and our need for evolution, but it's also joy, things like that. So I hope to do more writing and exploring of those topics.

Tracy Thomas (56:30)

Maybe that can go in the Witness stuff.

Sara Aziza (56:32)

Yeah, somehow. Somehow.

Tracy Thomas (56:34)

Yeah, I'll let you figure that out. You're the writer. I'm not a writer.

Sara Aziza (56:37)

Oh, this is. This is when that comes in handy. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (56:41)

Here's my last question for you. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read the book, who would you want it to be?

Sara Aziza (56:47)

Oh, I think my situ. My grandmother. I wish. I wish she could be there. But, you know, I also know that she's. She's here for. In. She. In some way, she is. She is here. And I hope that she just feels, like, deeply loved.

Tracy Thomas (57:03)

I love that. Well, everybody, the Hallow half is out in the world. Wherever you get your books, you can get it. Like I mentioned before, if you're doing audio, I think you should do both. I don't want to tell people what to do. I just think you might get more out of it if you have the opportunities to flip through the pages. Also, some of the stuff is oriented really interesting on the page, like a lot of blank space or full space. You know, there's things that are crossed out. You just might want to look at it, if that's available to you. Sara, thank you so much for being here. This was amazing.

Sara Aziza (57:32)

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Tracy Thomas (57:34)

And everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks. Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you again to Sara Aziza for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Megan Fishman for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for November is We the Animals by Justin Torres, with our guest Mikey Friedman returning on Wednesday, November 26th. If you love the Stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com to join the Stacks pack. And check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax, Pod, on Instagram threads, TikTok and now YouTube. And you can check out our website@thestackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McCweight, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.