Ep. 400 We the Animals by Justin Torres — The Stacks Book Club (Mikey Friedman)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks, Ep. 400 – "We the Animals" by Justin Torres (Book Club Discussion with Mikey Friedman)

Podcast: The Stacks
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Mikey Friedman (Creator of Page Break)
Date: November 26, 2025
Book Discussed: We the Animals by Justin Torres

---

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This Book Club episode of The Stacks dives deep into Justin Torres’s celebrated debut novel We the Animals. Host Traci Thomas and guest Mikey Friedman passionately discuss the emotional and literary impact of the book, highlighting its spare but powerful style, explorations of family, sexuality, race, and the raw realities of coming of age in a chaotic household. The episode blends personal reactions, literary analysis, and broader cultural reflections, making it a thoughtful companion for anyone interested in the novel or its themes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Initial Impressions & Emotional Impact

• Both Traci and Mikey share immediate, glowing reactions—declaring We the Animals not just great, but underrated, despite its accolades (04:09–05:10).
• They discuss the brevity and intensity of the novella, both wishing it was longer due to its immersive quality (07:26–07:41).
• Traci shares how the story, particularly the “seven years old” chapter, affected her as a parent, admitting she took the book's emotional weight to her therapist (05:58–06:40).

Economy of Language & Literary Restraint

• The hosts praise the novel's vignette structure, noting how Torres conveys entire histories or character insights in single sentences (08:38–09:39).
• "He does such a good job of telling you everything you need to know about a character in one sentence." – Traci (08:38)
• Both compare the novel’s spareness to other works and discuss how restraint builds tension and reader engagement (08:06–08:25).

Visual & Sensory Storytelling

• Mikey highlights the book’s vivid, sensory, almost cinematic quality: “You can hear this book...the volume is turned up in so many scenes.” (25:05)
• Traci adds, “It’s a sensory book,” agreeing that Torres immerses readers with minimal but evocative detail (25:30).

Fragmented Structure & Perspective

• The novel’s “fragment” or vignette approach is credited for mirroring memory and childhood experience, allowing readers to connect through crucial, emotionally charged moments (35:21–35:42).
• Discussion of the use of “we,” “they,” and “I” mirrors the narrator’s shifting sense of belonging—first among his brothers (“we”), then, after alienation, as an individual (“I”) (19:28–20:56).
• “At the end of the book, it's no longer we... it's they. And then he, you know, runs away, and now it's I.” – Mikey (20:08–20:50)

Family Dynamics & Violence

• The hosts discuss the characterization of "Pops" as simultaneously terrifying and tender, exemplifying the book’s emotional complexity (14:19–15:33).
• Torres’s depiction of family violence, parental struggles, and shame is direct but carefully measured—emotionally resonant rather than sensational (15:27–16:51).

Childhood, Survival, and the Loss of Innocence

• The podcast explores moments that encapsulate the children’s navigation of chaos, such as the mother’s confusion or the swimming scene at the lake—drawing comparisons to Frankenstein and the theme of being “made” or “born” into a harsh world (41:18–43:13).
• The idea that the family's challenges are not named by the child narrator but felt and displayed through action and reaction is a thread throughout the discussion (46:22–47:22).

Sexuality and Identity

• The slow build and revelation of the narrator’s queerness is acknowledged as deftly handled, avoiding stereotypes or clichés (33:48–34:23).
• Mikey observes, “The fragments allow for a really nuanced portrayal of sexuality and of discovering yourself...there’s certain memories that I have growing up that just really stick with you.” (35:21)
• The coming-out aspect is discussed as neither tragic nor solely defined by sexuality: “What I find empowering about this portrayal is that the entire story and character is not only defined by their queerness.” – Mikey (38:59)

Racial Dynamics and Identity

• Traci emphasizes the mixed-race context as central: “It is so spot on...to what it is like to be a mixed kid, like, at a young age...you are not fully aware of what it means, what the implications are of your existence...” (51:21)
• Scenes depicting the family’s Puerto Rican and white heritage, and parental differences, are lauded for their authenticity (49:40–51:30).

The Ending: Isolation and Transformation

• The hosts break down the intense final sequence where the narrator is outed and ultimately separated from his family, culminating in a section that is both literal (hospitalization/“zoo”) and metaphorical (becoming his own kind of animal/outcast) (27:41–32:47).
• Both discuss the ambiguity and possible future for the character—whether he is still in captivity or has created a new “pack” (34:06).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It is the fastest little tiny lovely novella novel ever. And you could probably read it and come back and listen before the day is out.” – Traci (03:35)
• “He does such a good job of telling you everything you need to know about a character in one sentence.” – Traci (08:38)
• “From the beginning, you're like, instantly empathetic to all the characters...takes 100 pages to get to in a lot of books. But you can immediately see the stakes.” – Mikey (06:47)
• “The restraint that it takes to be able to do that is beyond.” – Mikey (05:10)
• “It places you in the environment of the house so clearly, because you're understanding from both characters’ perspectives.” – Mikey (09:42)
• “Every chapter of this book has some kind of lasting, shaping impact on this character.” – Mikey (40:39)
• “You can hear this book. Like, the volume is turned up in so many of these scenes.” – Mikey (25:05)
• “At the end of the book, it's no longer we... it's they. And then he, you know, runs away, and now it's I.” – Mikey (20:08)
• “What I find empowering about this portrayal is that the entire story and character is not only defined by their queerness.” – Mikey (38:59)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Emotional Responses: 04:09–06:40
• Discussion of Literary Style and Restraint: 08:38–11:27
• Family Characterizations (Ma and Pops): 09:33–15:33
• Structure, “We/They/I”, and Plotlessness: 19:10–21:41, 13:41–13:50
• Fragmentation and Coming of Age: 35:21–36:34, 40:39
• Final Scene Breakdown: 27:41–32:47
• Sensory & Visual Storytelling: 25:05–25:31
• Sexuality, Shame, and Empowerment: 33:48–38:59, 46:08–47:22
• Race and Heritage Discussion: 49:40–51:49

---

Additional Insights and Reflections

• The novel’s restraint and fragmentary nature foster an intimate, almost confessional atmosphere—readers “fill in the gaps” not explicitly described.
• Mikey and Traci both compare We the Animals favorably to Torres’s later work Blackouts, emphasizing the debut’s unique literary achievement (54:22–54:52).
• Torres’s trust in the reader is praised; ambiguity and gaps are not flaws, but invitations for deeper engagement (48:26–49:02).

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Stacks provides a heartfelt and in-depth analysis of We the Animals, celebrating the book’s artistry, emotional truth, and cultural resonance. Both speakers frame Torres’s debut as a modern classic that rewards both careful analysis and pure emotional immersion—a work that will stay with readers long after the final page.

---

For more book discussions and additional resources, visit The Stacks Podcast.

Transcript

[App Store Narrator]

Do you have what it takes to finish first? The App Store is packed with super fast, super fun racing games for every driver. From battling with your favorite characters in Disney Speedstorm to piloting one of over 400 different cars on officially licensed tracks in real racing 3. It's all right here. Blast down the track with no limit drag racing 2. Race and collect the latest and greatest cars in CSR2 realistic drag racing. Or even take over the International Car Racing arena with Asphalt Legends and take on the toughest drivers from around the world with NASCAR Manager. Just visit the App Store to find these racing games and more and get ready to start your engines. Leave boredom in the dust on the App Store.

[Mikey Friedman]

The Fragments allow for a really nuanced portrayal of sexuality and of discovering yourself. We're getting the fragments where those types of memories will would stick out to a gay person more than they would stick out to someone else. Like the scene where they go into the basement and watch the weird video. Weird video, yeah. Certainly that would affect a lot of young people, I'm sure at a formative age. But I think, you know, I can say as a gay person, there's certain memories that I have growing up that like just really stick with you. And I think that the Fragment approach allows for this almost like kind of like aching suspicion or like aching feeling to build throughout the book that it's not just that this narrator has this really tough life and has this really complicated family, but it's only going to get harder when he has to step into himself in this other way.

[Tracey Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracey Thomas, and today is the Stacks Book Club Day. I am joined by Mikey Friedman, who is the creator creator of Page Break and is back to discuss our November book club pick with us. We the Animals by Justin Torres this novel was published over 10 years before Justin Torres won the National Book Award for his novel Blackouts. It is his debut and the book explores the lives of three mixed race brothers in upstate New York trying to navigate the chaos and violence and tenderness within their household. Be sure to stay tuned to the end of today's episode to find out what our December book club pick was be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in the show notes if you like the Stacks. If you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on substack. Each place offers different perks that range from Community conversations to hot takes on pop culture and of course, bonus episodes. Plus your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week. So to join, head to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks pack and go to Tracy thomas.substack.com for my new newsletter. All right, now it is time for my conversation with spoilers with Mikey Friedman about We the Animals by Justin Torres. All right, everybody, it is the Stacks Book Club day. I am so excited. I am joined now by friend of the pod and you all know this future partner because we're going on retreat to Joshua Tree January 23rd through the 25th, so make sure you sign up for that. I am joined by the man behind Page Break, Mikey Friedman. Mikey, welcome back to the Stacks.

[Mikey Friedman]

Thanks, Tracy. Can't wait. Counting down the days till our retreat.

[Tracey Thomas]

I wish I had a counter going. I don't. But soon, like two months.

[Mikey Friedman]

Gonna be epic.

[Tracey Thomas]

But today you and I are talking about we the Animals by Justin Torres for the Sax Book Club. Everybody listening at home, there will be spoilers. So please read the book. It's 125 pages. It is the fastest little tiny lovely novella novel ever. And you could probably read it and come back and listen before the day is out. So Mikey, we always start here just generally top line. What did you think of the book?

[Mikey Friedman]

Absolutely loved it. This is the exact kind of book that I like and I'm so happy we've got to read it. I'm honestly alarmed that I haven't read it yet. Now that I've read it.

[Tracey Thomas]

Okay, here are my top line thoughts. Loved. Absolutely loved this book. I, I think after I finished it, I was talking to some people and I go, I know that everybody loves this book, but I actually think it's underrated. Like I don't think we're talking about it enough. Even though I feel like everyone who's read it is like, it's great.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. I know. I said I feel like. Because also blackouts got so much craze too.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

That I agree. I think everyone who even just like talking to people and posting like the story. Even today I've had like 10 people reply and say that is an all time book.

[Tracey Thomas]

It's an all timer.

[Mikey Friedman]

I mean it's incredible.

[Tracey Thomas]

It's so good. I just, I felt like I, maybe this is my problem. But I felt like people were like, oh yeah, it's good. And I felt like I needed more people to be like, it is.

[Mikey Friedman]

Get ready. Yeah, yeah, get ready. And the fact that it's so short, so short. And packs such an emotional punch. And, like, the restraint that it takes to be able to do that is beyond.

[Tracey Thomas]

And it is a perfect book. From the opening line, the first line of the book is, we wanted more by Justin Torres. You can have all my kids. You could have my house. Like, I'm done. I love.

[Mikey Friedman]

I'm here.

[Tracey Thomas]

I love it. Okay. I'm glad we're on the same page, though. I'm sort of sad we're on the same page because we are not gonna get to fight about the book. But it's so good.

[Mikey Friedman]

I'm a lover, I'm a father. But this is like, I. Yeah, this, like, I felt so much reading this book, I cried. Yeah. I'm like, on the sub. I'm on the subway. Like, yeah. Oh, no.

[Tracey Thomas]

I like, ugly cried and like, text my friend and was like, I'm a terrible mom. I, like, took it to therapy the next day. My therapist was like, how are you? I was like, I cried so hard last night. She's like, is everything okay? I was like, no. There was a chapter about kids turning 7.

[Mikey Friedman]

Just my book club weighing on my heart.

[Tracey Thomas]

To be fair to my emotions, I have, as you know, twin boys who will be six in December. So I think the seven chapter really took it out of me because I'm not ready to guard my heart against my children. I'm not ready for them to punch me in my already black eye.

[Mikey Friedman]

Like, totally.

[Tracey Thomas]

I'm not ready for that. And it just. It just broke me.

[Mikey Friedman]

I also think, like, the way I agree from the beginning, you're like, instantly empathetic to all the characters.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

In a way that's like, I think takes 100 pages to get to in a lot of books. But you can immediately see the stakes. And also you can feel every character. And a really. I think Justin writes from a child perspective in a really remarkable way. Like the way you're sort of seeing. Feeling your loss of innocence and seeing your parents, and the same way the mother is sort of seeing her children. It's really. Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

Okay, let's start with just since we're here, just the shortness of the book. Like we said, It's 125 pages. I basically never say this. I could have read 600 more pages of this book.

[Mikey Friedman]

Same. I wish it was longer.

[Tracey Thomas]

I wish it was a thousand page book. Like, because the way that it is so, like vignette ish. The vignettes happening. It's like, right as you would get comfortable, you're on to the next thing.

[Mikey Friedman]

It's so true.

[Tracey Thomas]

It would. I know they made it into a movie, but it would make a great TV show. Oh, they did.

[Mikey Friedman]

I have to see the movie.

[Tracey Thomas]

I haven't seen it either. I didn't want to.

[Mikey Friedman]

Well, I agree. And that's kind of what I was saying at the restraint to be able to do that.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

And not fill in the gaps for us and spoon feed us what happens next in their life. Like you get these mile markers, right. Like they turn seven and then later, you know, they've like aged older towards the brilliant, shocking end of this book.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

And so it has these mile markers, but it's not spoon fed to us. And I think that's just like trusting the reader. And yeah. Every. I wanted every scene to last a little bit longer and I wanted to know like what was going to happen immediately after that.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes. What had happened right before, what was going to happen after. And I think to your point, like, yes. The restraint is so good. And also he does such a good job of telling you everything you need to know about a character in one sentence. Like the first scene we have with Ma is on page five and I took a note because I was like, this is insane. But he says like she would wake randomly mixed up, mistaking one day for another, one hour for the next, order us to brush our teeth and get into PJs and lie in bed in the middle of the day. Or when we came into the kitchen in the morning, half asleep, she'd be pulling a meatloaf loaf out of the oven saying, what is wrong with you boys? I've been calling and calling for dinner. We had to learn not to correct her or to try to pull her out of the confusion. It only made things worse. And it's like instantly you get a picture of this woman who is just like out of her depth.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

Out of control. And like you also know exactly how they feel about her.

[Mikey Friedman]

Exactly.

[Tracey Thomas]

And it's like that's five sentences.

[Mikey Friedman]

Five sentences. And exactly. It places you in the environment of the house.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

So clearly, because you're understanding from both characters perspectives and like you saying such.

[Tracey Thomas]

A short amount of time and like the chaos, the smell of the meatloaf, just like the uncertainty and the way that, the way that he flips. Like the kids are taking care of the mom. Like there's so much just in those sentences where I felt like I know exactly who this woman is, I know exactly what this life is. And I am feeling all the tension and the Anxiety of being a small person in a world that is so uncertain.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. I also think it's like, it's a really. I want to talk about how it's like, a visceral novel and, like.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

And hear things, but I think it's like what you're describing is, like, almost an ability to create visual image. I can imagine this book so clearly.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

But it's not written in a way that's so colorful and kind of obnoxious.

[Tracey Thomas]

Like, he doesn't describe the kitchen. He's not like, mom pulled the meatloaf out of our pink tiled kitchen. You know, we have so many loose doorknobs. Like, it's like, I don't need that. I already can see this hideous kitchen with loose dogs.

[Mikey Friedman]

Exactly. It's like. Which is so refreshing because I think there are. There is a lot of very poetic books like this that lean on really, you know, like, limited prose to try to tell a story in a really, like, affecting way. But it doesn't deliver on this, like, visual. It didn't deliver on. It doesn't deliver as visually as this did. Which is like, I think, such, like, a magic, magical art that he's able to do that. Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And the opposite is also true. There's so many novels that spend so much time trying to paint the picture of the scene. You get like 50 pages about the kitchen.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And then it's like, mom pulled a meatloaf out. It was 11pm and it's like, I just spent so much time with you describing the curtain and when you. The family bought the house and blah, blah, blah, and then just nothing happens. And I think something that came up last month in Frankenstein, which we're actually going to talk about Frankenstein a little bit later today on this episode. But in the Stacks Pack book club that we did after the episode aired, like, through the Patreon, someone said to me, why did you like Frankenstein so much? Like, not a lot happens. And there's, like, a lot of description. Because I famously don't like books where things don't happen. And I realized in reading this and also thinking more about Frankenstein, it's that I don't care if nothing happens. I don't care if the book is just like a bunch of character study. You know, this is just a day in the life type book. But what I do need in a book is that when people are together, stakes are high, everybody wants something and everybody believes they're right. And I feel like in this book, we get that. It's like, Mom Believes it is dinner time.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And mom wants the boys to come inside. And she's fired up about the fact that the boys like, where are you guys? And the kids are like, mom's fucking nuts. We don't know what's going on. She gets like this. And it's our job to protect her. And it's like nothing does really happen in this book until the very end technically. But so much happens because there's so much interaction between people. So I don't need the kitchen if I have these moments.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. And the stakes are so high. Like the tension in this book is. You can feel it in every scene. And then when something does happen at the end, it's like I was like so locked in, it was like, oh, here we go. Because you're already feeling that tension build. But I totally agree. I was curious what you, you know, knowing your, your stance on like kind of like Vibes novels or Vibes books. I was curious your thoughts. But exactly like you're saying, like, the relationship between them is what happens.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right. This is a Vibes book. But I would never describe this as a Vibes book. No. Like, I think, I think technically it is like this is, you know, it's just like, it's like the past or whatever.

[Mikey Friedman]

Especially because it's fragments too. So it's not like it's not building plot in that traditional way. Like you're getting these little scenes and fragments. So.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right. There's really no plot in this book. Like, it's just like it's just coming of age. Which I guess is its own sort of plot trope. But you know, it's sort. You realize it's been moving towards this thing when you get to the end. But the whole time it's just a bunch of scenes. But I just love a scene. I just want a high stakes interaction between people. And we've been talking about Ma a lot. But Paps or Pops is the highest stakes of human beings on the face of the earth. I mean, he is a force.

[Mikey Friedman]

He's. He's the maker of the most terrifying parts of this book. But also the most tender.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

And touching scenes.

[Tracey Thomas]

And similarly, you know, I think the first thing he says about Pops, I was like, oh, I know exactly like who this person is. Right. Like, it's like. And I think it's early. He's. It's. It's literally in the first chapter, he's talking about how he and his brothers fought with stuff. And then he says, and when our pops came home, we got spankings it's like, that's all you needed. I literally know exactly what that is. I know who your dad is. I know what kind of kids you are. I know what that vibe is like. You hear the shoes when dad walks. Like, that whole thing in one sentence.

[Mikey Friedman]

I'm also. Yeah, that's reminding me. Like, I talk about, like, the use of we in this too. I'm sure that's on your list. Well, we should come back to it, but made me think of something for Pops. What was it? Oh. Oh, just that the. Like, he'll. The writing in this is really direct around things like abuse.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

And it's. It pulls. No. I was going to say pulls no punches.

[Tracey Thomas]

But it's like, very on the nose.

[Mikey Friedman]

Sorry. Very, very direct and unrestrained in some places. That's really hard to read and really, like, chilling. But then there's these moments where I was so curious about that Justin doesn't give us, like, the sex scene at the very end, like, sort of, like, making me and, like, losing it. Like, just to be able to not give us some of those details and, like, leave that out. Like, I think that's what I. When I think about restraint. It's like knowing when to use it. It's not just that this book is, like, pulled back, restrained for the. For the sake of it. To try to prevent us from figuring things out. It's like the thoughtful choices of when to do it and for what scenes.

[Tracey Thomas]

I feel like when you read a book and you feel, like, taken care of by the author, I feel like that is this book. It's like Justin Torres has such a clarity of story that he wants to tell us. And it feels so clear that he knows what he's doing, that he's a competent guide into this world, that he knows exactly when to pull back and when to give a little more and when to lean into the funny and when to lean into the, like, brutal. And the balance is. I mean, it's extraordinary. It's extraordinary that this is a debut novel also.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. Yeah. I. I had to do a little research to, like, learn about, but I think in an interview he said five or six years.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

This 120 pages, which speaks to this level of care and the level of, like, every word is thoughtfully selected and it shows in how the sentence structure fits together and how it flows. And after we. After our last chat, you're like, oh, do you read out loud? Because we read a lot on our retreats. I was like, I'm going to read parts of this book out loud. Yeah, I did. And it's like this. What a. What a joy to be able to read this kind of language out loud. Right. Like, every single word matters.

[Tracey Thomas]

It matters. I actually didn't read this out loud because I was on an airplane. But airplane reading is some of my best. Most like, emotional, just like in my feels. Though I did read the first few chapters at home on my couch, crying. And then I got on an airplane. So I didn't cry on the airplane. I cried at home on my couch.

[Mikey Friedman]

I love an airplane cry. Like coming home from vacation, reading a sad book, watching a sad movie.

[Tracey Thomas]

So good. Let's talk about the writing style. So I always ask the sax pack, um, what are things you want us to talk about on the episode? And someone brought up that they actually. They didn't read about the book at all. They weren't really paying attention. They read it on their E Reader, so they didn't even really look at the COVID And they thought it was a memoir.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And I thought that was really interesting because I just didn't go in with that mindset at all. But it totally could be because it's written again so clear. Such economy of language.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And, like, the sceneiness of it.

[Mikey Friedman]

And it feels like there's so much truth in it, in the way that the characters operate with, like, it's so open in a lot of ways that it feels like. It feels like it's a real thing. Right. It feels like it would be hard for someone to make up that level of truth.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right. Right. And because he gives us so little about each person, but it feels like so much. It's like, Justin Torres knows these people, obviously. Like, these are people he is. These are his brothers. These are his parents. Because it feels so real and so rich and deep. And then you're like, wait, this is fiction. And I know people say it's auto fiction or whatever, but I read some essays or some interview from him, and he was like, this is not actually my family.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah. But he has, like, siblings.

[Tracey Thomas]

He has siblings. He is poor Puerto Rican. And like, I think the. I think the framework of the novel fits his life. But he was like, these things didn't happen to me. Let's talk about we. The use of we. What did you want to say about that?

[Mikey Friedman]

I wanted to say that it's really hard to do that too. Like, to be able to give us so much personal depth from the narrator by not using I. Yeah, he uses.

[Tracey Thomas]

It pretty sparingly until the end.

[Mikey Friedman]

Then the end. I Guess he uses it.

[Tracey Thomas]

He uses it. He uses it in a few scenes. Like, he uses it in this scene. This. The scene in chapter. The scene.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

In seven. But that's because the brothers have left and he's alone with the mom before. He is brutal to her and makes me cry. So he does use it, but mostly he uses we. And. And, you know, the title is we the Animals.

[Mikey Friedman]

Like, exactly.

[Tracey Thomas]

And the.

[Mikey Friedman]

I think the thing that stuck out to me was that at the end of the book, it's no longer we.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Which I think is like, that's such a genius use of form to fit the story because we're allowed to do spoilers. So by the end of the book, he's no longer in the pack of animals with his brothers. Right. He's othered in that scene that I can see so vividly of them in the snowstorm. And that it's no longer we. It's they. They did this. They acted this way. He has these really, you know, descriptive portrayals of his brothers, but it's now it's they.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

And then he, you know, runs away, and now it's I. So I think that that use of. Right.

[Tracey Thomas]

And he says at the end, like, I. I lost my pack or something, Right?

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tracey Thomas]

These days I've lost my pack. I think also, like, at first, when I read the book, or when I started the book and I was looking at the COVID and there's, you know, the three. I have the COVID with the three boys jumping. And I had thought that the we was the three brothers, but I realized that. I think for me, like, the we is actually the whole family. Like that. They're all five.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And I think that became more clear to me in that final scene when it's like the four of them, you know, trying to first kind of expose him and then protect him.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And that shift is, like, really powerful of, like, it's not just the brothers, it's the whole thing. It's the whole world they've created.

[Mikey Friedman]

And I think building on that, it's like the idea of escape in this book comes up. So comes up so much the dad, you know, Pops basically saying, like, we're not going to be able to ever escape this. And reflecting on the book as a whole, I'm thinking, like, you know, animals, especially the last piece, it's like in the Zoo and like, this notion of, like, escaping from captivity.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right.

[Mikey Friedman]

Isn't just about the brothers. Right. It's also about Pops and Ma certainly. Like that scene where she basically Is like, I was going to. Should we just leave and never.

[Tracey Thomas]

Should we leave? Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

What do you guys leave? Yeah. And they were like. And then they're. And then it's like, oh, now we're pulling up back to home.

[Tracey Thomas]

It's like, yeah, but it's like there's a part where Manny, the oldest brother, talks about wanting to leave. Then the mom wants to leave the dad, the dad wants to leave the world, but none of them end up leaving. And then it ends up being our unnamed narrator, who is the one who, like, gets out. But it is, like the most forceful, brutal, sort of like launching out into the world.

[Mikey Friedman]

Right. In its own form of captivity.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah. And it's not. He doesn't leave. He gets kicked out in a lot of ways. Right? Like, true. They eject him from. From. From the world. And I think, like, the ending, for me, it mirrors that really well. Before we get well, I want to talk about the ending, but it mirrors for me this scene really early in the book. It's called Never Never Time. So this is like sort of that first real scene we get with Ma and. And they're, like, mashing ketchup and tomatoes. Yeah. And the mom's like, this is like when you were born. And she says, like, do it to me. And they say, what? And she says, make me born. And Manny says, we're out of tomatoes. Use ketchup. And so then they're like, mom, close your eyes, whatever. And then it says. And the mallet swung through the air. Our mother yelped and slid to the floor and stayed there, her eyes wide open and ketchup everywhere, looking like she had been shot in the back of the head. It's a mom. We screamed, congratulations. We ran to the cupboards and pulled out the biggest pots and heaviest ladles and clanged them as loud as we could, dancing around our mother's body, shouting, happy Birthday. Happy New Year. It's zero o'. Clock. It's never, never time. It's the time of your life. And I. First of all, I loved it because it was giving Frankenstein vibes for me. Born, everything is Frankenstein. I feel like every episode for the rest of the year, I'm going to tie back to Frankenstein. So far, I'm do. So far, I am 10 for 10. But I felt like it mirrors this birth ejection of our narrator at the end, because he, too, is sort of like the other person on the other end of the family and ejected out into the world. And it sort of has that same forceful energy as Like a birth. Right. It's like so physical and I just couldn't help but feel like even though the ending is so different, which we should talk about next, it is still really rooted in who these people are. And it feels so of the piece. Before we go to the ending, let's take a quick. Well, you say we're gonna say, then I'm gonna break us. Then we'll do ending.

[Mikey Friedman]

I think that's just that scene is also emblematic of how audio somehow plays like you can hear this book.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

Like it's the volume is turned up in so many of these scenes.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes. Either.

[Mikey Friedman]

Either through being so quiet and tender that you can feel how hauntingly quiet it is. But then the fact that the brothers are running around howling, screaming, banging, like shooting things, like throwing things. Like it's such a accomplishment to be able to do that too.

[Tracey Thomas]

It's like a such a sensory book.

[Mikey Friedman]

Sensory book.

[Tracey Thomas]

I feel like that's right. Okay, let's take a quick break and then we're going to come back and we're going to do the ending. And just like that, it is giving season every week. I look forward to giving you guys an opportunity to immerse yourself in books and all things reading. And if you love listening to the Stacks as much as I love creating it for you, consider supporting us on Patreon and Substack too. On Patreon you can join the Stacks community, the Stacks Pack. We've got book club meetups, a private discord, and a year long mega reading challenge to help you push your reading goals. Plus, members get exclusive bonus episodes every month and sometimes they even get two over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter, Unstacked, where you will get those bonus episodes and where I keep the bookish conversations going along with a healthy dose of pop culture roundups and a few hot takes. There's a free option as well to get a little dose of the Stacks magic. Making this podcast is a team effort and by supporting my Patreon and Substack you allow me to support my my crew. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers and support this indie podcast, come hang out with me on Patreon Substack or both. I would love to have you head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and Tracy thomas.substack.com for unstacked.

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

Why choose a sleep number? Smart bed?

[Tracey Thomas]

Can I make my site softer?

[Mikey Friedman]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

Sleep number does that Cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. It's the final days of our Black Friday sale. Recharge this season with a bundle of cozy, soothing comfort. Now only $17.99 for our C2 mattress and base plus free premium delivery price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.

[Tracey Thomas]

Oh, wait. We are back. There are other things I want to do, but I do think we should do the ending so we can come back to some of the other stuff. So every chapter is basically super duper short. Then we get to this final scene. This chapter is called the Night I am Made. And it's like a bunch of parts. It's like three parts.

[Mikey Friedman]

Three. Three parts.

[Tracey Thomas]

Nighttime, Midnight, Late night. And deep night. Oh, and dawn.

[Mikey Friedman]

And dawn.

[Tracey Thomas]

Do you want to tell the people what happens in this section?

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah. The night inmate. So this is the beginning of the end with the brothers. It starts off with our unnamed narrator falling out with his brothers. They tease him horribly for what they suspect is him being gay. And they, like, he's. The narrator later describes the feeling that they could, like, smell it on him, that they've, like, come to sort of see him as other and different from them. And this is where that shift in language happens, too, right? It starts with they grew up wiry, long torso and lean. And it's no longer we. And our narrator runs off after, like, a brutal fight with his brothers and goes to cruise the bathrooms at the bus station where he is made for the first time, AKA has his virginity.

[Tracey Thomas]

And he's been going to the bus station and, like, just kind of observing for a while. Yeah, yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Feeling it out, scouting. But this is the first time he.

[Tracey Thomas]

Really goes and does it with, like, a trucker.

[Mikey Friedman]

With a trucker in. In the truck, not in the bathrooms. Yeah. And just for the. I can just keep moving to the next chapter. The next chapter. He walks home in the. And gets home at dawn, and his entire family is sitting in the living room, and his mom has his journal on her lap. And inside this journal, our narrator's written all these gay fantasies, both innocent and not, and very, like, shocking personal entries into his diary. And he knows immediately that not only has she read it and knows the truth about him, but his entire family has. And it's like this whole scene for me happens in, like, slow motion. And I think it's written in this way, too. Right? It's like, you know what's happening, but every. I have to like, read every sentence twice. Like, every sentence, it just like, is like a slow motion montage. And the father kind of lurches out to hit him. And the brothers restrain the father. And it's like this, like, slow motion scene where the narrator says, you know, he was. Both the brothers are both restraining him, but at the same time holding him up. Which is, I think, speaks to the complexity of this scene and the feelings. And then finally after temperatures decrease. Right?

[Tracey Thomas]

Well. Well, after the thing, he sort of had, like, freaks out. He says he was behaving like an animal. So they're like restraining him. After they're holding up the father, he starts hitting himself. He starts tearing at them, scratching at them. Like a wild animal that's in captivity. He's like, trying to get out, get away. The shame, all of it. The betrayal is just like physically manifesting in him.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah, it's a complete break. And I said ended animal. Unforgiving things, unforgivable things. Like the last line of section. What else? But to take me to the zoo and before he's taken to the zoo and sort of exiled by his family to, I assume, a psychiatric ward, Right?

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

There's this really tender scene with Pops and the bathtub. And I was a little unclear in this one. Like, that happened right after that moment.

[Tracey Thomas]

I think it happened after they subdued him, before they took him to the psych ward. Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Right. Okay. Because they're, like, talking about how, you know, the narrator, like, smelled and hadn't, like, washed in days. And so I was unclear if that had been, like, from him living, like, living on the street separately from that. But no, I think you're right.

[Tracey Thomas]

I think it was.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah, I think it happened right after that. But essentially this, like, final moment of care where Pops is hand washing the narrator and his son in the bathtub fully clothed and then unclothed, and Ma is sort of outside the bathroom coming in. And it's just like this really heartbreaking moment of final care. And then we get to the final page of the book, which is Zookeeping. I mean, should we just read the whole thing? So, sure.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

It's like two sentences. These days I sleep with peacocks, lions on a bed of leaves. I've lost my pack. I dream of standing upright, of uncurled knuckles, of a simpler life. No hot muzzles, no fangs, no claws, no obscene plumage Strolling gaily with an upright air. I sleep with other animals in cages and in dens down Rabbit holes on tufts of hay they adorn me, these animals Lay me down, paw me, own me, crown me, prince of their rank jungles. Upright, upright, I say, I slur, I vow. I was like, yeah, I. I sort of interpret this as certainly, he's in the zoo. Right. In captivity. But is it that this. This slight glimmer of optimism, of, like, vowing to persist? Right. Like vowing to be upright.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah. I think that I sort of took it as, like, here he's been in this sort of rural world of chaos and all these things, and I feel like for him, I sort of envision him as like an adult at this point. Like in New York City. Right. Just, like, being. I took it. I took it to mean, like, so we, the animals is like, we think it's their family, we think it's the brothers, and we think it's their family. And then I sort of took it to mean that, like, maybe he is an animal. Air quotes. Like, as a gay man with other gay men. And so now he's being observed by everyone else and sort of, like, other eyes and they're enjoying each other and, like, having their own zoo. But it's like, like a zoo or like a world of animals that he chose to be in. Like his own animals, as opposed to the animals he was born into. Like, that he found. That he actually found his new pack. His new pack or, like, his world.

[Mikey Friedman]

Interesting. Yeah. And.

[Tracey Thomas]

But it is unclear. I mean, it's the only part of the whole book that's not like, this is what happened.

[Mikey Friedman]

Right. Well, it's like, one way, I think, to read it is that it's, like, literally still in captivity of you.

[Tracey Thomas]

Like, at the psych ward.

[Mikey Friedman]

Still at the psych ward. Still.

[Tracey Thomas]

Sure.

[Mikey Friedman]

And hoping that he. He may, like, behave in an upright way in the future. But I. I really. I'm. I like your. There's another interpretation, too, which is like, this is further in the future, and it's like a larger message about how we're all animals and you have to sort of find your type of animal.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah. Or like your. Yeah. Like your ecosystem. Maybe you're a forest and a woodland creature or a desert snake or something. Yes. I mean, I think, like, the way that sexuality, his sexuality is sort of slowly drawn through the book. I obviously am familiar with who Justin Torres is, and I know that Blackouts is, like, about who is about, like, gay men. And so I went in assuming that this book was going to be about, like, a gay kid. And it is, but it is not what I thought it was going to be same completely. Like, I was like, oh, like, maybe he's not. Like, maybe he's not like a gay kid. And then there's like all these little moments, these glimpses of him, you know, kind of stepping into his own self. I mean, there's the moment where the dad, like, calls him pretty.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah, whatever.

[Tracey Thomas]

And then there's. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Mikey Friedman]

No, completely. I mean, that's what I think is a really smart way. The fragments allow for a really nuanced portrayal of sexuality and of discovering yourself for that reason. Because we're getting the fragments where those types of memories would stick out to a gay person more than they would stick out to someone else. Like the scene where they go into the basement and watch the weird video.

[Tracey Thomas]

Weird video?

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

I was like, is that a whole video or.

[Mikey Friedman]

I know, right? I mean, I think that's what we're left to. To ask. But it's like, we certainly. That would affect a lot of young people, I'm sure, at a former age. But I think, you know, I can say as a gay person, there's certain memories that I have growing up that just really stick with you. And I think that the fragment approach allows for this almost kind of like aching suspicion or aching feeling to build throughout the book that it's not just that this narrator has this really tough life and has this really complicated family, but it's only gonna get harder when he has to step into himself in this other way. So I just think that whole thing was so brilliantly done because then the ending is so focused on that it all comes to a T. Right. All your sort of building suspicions from these fragments is then confirmed and then tipped the entire other way.

[Tracey Thomas]

And also, I mean, I think what's really well done in this book, especially when we think about, like, coming out stories, because in a lot of ways this book is also a coming out story. Right. Or like an outing story.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And I feel like so often the trope is either it's like this really tragic, sort of like weeping in the corner, suicidal, whatever. And I felt like what was really interesting about how he did this is it's still a very kind of painful coming out story, but the fire behind it felt so different than how we're told A, like a traumatic coming out would be. Usually we're told, like, I was so sad I was cutting myself, or like, nobody liked me, nobody wanted to be my friend. But it's like he's never really alone, even in all of this. Like, he's never really passive. And it's also tied to these descriptions of his mom talking about how capable he is, how smart he is. He's embarrassed for his brothers because they are not as good. As smart as whatever as him. And I liked the coupling of this, like, inner turmoil and this pull on this feeling of being different and other. And even the rage and the shame of the actual moment when he realizes the. Coupled with. He's capable. He's eight. Like, he is almost in control of this. She says he's capable of destroying anything, including himself. Right. And so it feels like almost empowering in some ways. I don't know if you felt that at all.

[Mikey Friedman]

I definitely did. I felt like that description towards the end of the book of the mother describing the narrator felt so true to, like when a mother knows. She knows. Yes. Kind of like.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right.

[Mikey Friedman]

She's pointing out, oh, there's something special about him.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

And I think that is. That is an element that is, I think, really true between a gay man and his mother a lot of times. And so that feels really honest. But what I agree with, like, overall, what you're saying is empowering. What I find empowering about this portrayal is that the entire story and character is not only defined by their queerness. Sure. And gayness and like that. To your point, entering into a book with some of the. Just knowing the high level about Justin or knowing the high level about the book, you could almost expect that, oh, this is a gay coming of age novel. So this is what it's going to really wrestle with.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right.

[Mikey Friedman]

And it is. But it's not only that. And I think, like, that is something queer people always grapple with and always have to try to deal with is like, it's not the stereotypical gay thing just because.

[Tracey Thomas]

And it's not focused on his sexuality from a young age, which. Which I also appreciated because I feel like regardless of sexuality, most children are not concerned with sexuality at seven.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally.

[Tracey Thomas]

Like, they're not thinking about.

[Mikey Friedman]

They want food.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah. And like they want to play with their brothers or whatever. And so the way that it sort of slowly emerges, like even the scene between the parents and the bathroom where they're like getting for a ski and he's noticing and like understanding that this is like something that's making him feel and think things. It's not. It has nothing to do with his sexuality and yet has everything to do with his sexuality. But I feel like it's. That is such like an almost universal thing for kids. Like seeing your parents have a sexual Desire or seeing the adults in your life have that. That is like an awakening in a lot of ways, regardless of what happens to you and your sexual life, whether you become polyamorous or become asexual, like, it's not something that totally get. And so I. I felt like he touches on these big, touchstone moments without showing his hand as, like, yes, this is a queer story.

[Mikey Friedman]

Right. And every. Literally every chapter of this book has some kind of lasting, shaping impact on this character.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Like, and I think even that. Just, like, as you're reading it, every. After every single chapter break, I'm like, wow, okay. This is, like, notes are taken as far as, like, the reader, but also, like, this is just such impactful scene after impactful scene that the collectiveness of that, like, when you add those scenes up, you really see this, like, loss of innocence in this growing up. There could have been a whole, like, the second third of this whole book. There was, like, a big jump right when he's older. I can't believe we didn't get the gap.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, another. Another moment like this. That, again, is a Frankenstein moment, is. Is the swimming scene at the lake.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yes.

[Tracey Thomas]

Where the dad. And this is. This goes into a thing that I really want to talk about, which is, like, how good this book is at showing how ill equipped most adults are to becoming parents. I feel like it really tapped into a lot of my feelings about being a mom, even though, like, I'm. I wasn't 17 when I had my third or 18 when I had my third child. But, like, this sense of, you're just. You are a person who is trying to live a robust life, and also, you're responsible for these other people, and you don't know what the. You're doing. And, like, in this scene, the dad, the. The older brothers are swimming at the lake. The mom and the dad and our narrator are there. The mom and the narrator can't swim. And the dad's like, I'm going to teach you.

[Mikey Friedman]

Hold on.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah. And he, like, basically just dumps them in the water and is like, sink or swim. And the mom freaks out and starts basically climbing her way over. The narrator is, like, drowning the narrator, essentially, to get to safety. And the narrator, he says, I sank down for a long time, disoriented and writhing. And then suddenly I was swimming, kicking my legs and spreading my arms, just like Pops had shown me long before, and rising up to the light and exploding into air. And then that first breath sucking air all the way down into my lungs. And When I looked up, the sky had never been so vaulted, so sparkling and magnificent. I just. And then he jumps ahead. He says, they had never been so happy to see me. They had never looked at me with such intensity and hope. They had never before spoken my name so softly. I remembered how Ma burst into tears and Pop celebrated, shouting as if he was a mad scientist, and I, a marvel of his creation. He's alive. He's alive. He's alive.

[Mikey Friedman]

Nice.

[Tracey Thomas]

Frankenstein.

[Mikey Friedman]

Also. That is such a vivid scene, but also, like, what a beautiful and heartbreaking first moment to feel wanted by your.

[Tracey Thomas]

Parents and to feel independent. He did it on his own.

[Mikey Friedman]

And to feel that your parents are proud of you. To me, that was like, oh, this is the first time in this kid's life that his parents have ever been proud of him, which is so heartbreaking.

[Tracey Thomas]

Well, it's the first time he's felt like his parents are proud of him.

[Mikey Friedman]

He's felt right.

[Tracey Thomas]

He's about to, because he's like an unreliable narrator. I'm sure if you asked Ma, she would say she was proud of him at other times, but it's the first time he feels that. Right.

[Mikey Friedman]

And because we're only getting the fragments, I'm reading every chapter as if it has, like, landmark.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

First, I think that's of this. Of this coming of age. And I think that scene also has elements of what the whole book has, which is the visceral, animalistic quality. In this case, with Ma. Right. Ma is doing fight or flight, animal, violent things, really. Like, basically drowning her own son, you know, out of her own alarm and, like, for.

[Tracey Thomas]

In.

[Mikey Friedman]

In service of her own safety and survival, which is, like, such an animalistic thing.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right? Yeah. And it's, like, not what she's supposed to do. She's supposed to save her kid. Right?

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally.

[Tracey Thomas]

And I think, again, that. I think that just points to this, like, adult. They might be parents, but also they are their own full human with their own wants and desires. And, like, she wants to live and swim bad enough to do anything she can do. Right. And even though she probably shouldn't, and if it was her book, we'd be hearing from her saying how, like, I feel so much, you know, shame around what I did, but I just. There. I mean, there's just so many scenes. I think that's. I mean, that's the other thing that I have a lot of notes around, is how huge a part. How. How much shame is a huge part of this story. Like, shame within. Shame within the walls of the family. You Know, the brothers not wanting to look at him after they are shown the gay porn scene. Right. Like, them realizing what their brother is. Right. And like, the narrator says he feels embarrassed of his potential and he's feeling pity towards his brothers. And obviously, I mean, the big Dick truck stuff with Pops and, like, not having a job and having to rely on his wife, and then Ma being in a relationship with the man that beats her up and gives her black eyes. And, like, there's just so much, I think, maybe like, a dichotomy between shame and desire in this book that just plays so beautifully together and is almost presented without judgment, which I think is extremely hard to do.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. Yeah. You. You feel. You feel the shame from each of the characters in these scenes, but it's not in, like, an exploitative way because.

[Tracey Thomas]

It'S not really named.

[Mikey Friedman]

Right.

[Tracey Thomas]

Like, he doesn't have the capacity to name it oftentimes. Like, in the big dick truck scene scene, he doesn't really know what he's seeing. He's just relaying information, and we're able to with our big adult brains to project shame or pity or whatever. But at the time, he can't do it. It's not till that last scene when he really says, like, I'm embarrassed about my brothers.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. Yeah. And it's like, that's writing from the younger child's perspective. It forces you as the reader to reckon with the very adult implications of what's happening. Right. So, like, you as an adult reading it, you have to. You have to. You're imbuing what you think the parents should or shouldn't be doing. Or you. You read in, like, what you would or wouldn't be doing in the world of these. These kids. It's so. Yeah, it's not. It's so good. Yeah, but it's not. It's not. It's not judgy because the kids, like you said kid, can't. Can't see that.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right. And he doesn't have anything to compare it to. This is his life. Right, Right. And it feels pretty insular. Like, we don't really hear much about going to school. We don't hear much about outside influences. And so, you know, whether or not they're doing those things, it's not that important.

[Mikey Friedman]

But what is the dad? We don't really know. I guess the dad's like a security guard, but then they go onto this trip to Buffalo or to Niagara Falls.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right? Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

He's like.

[Tracey Thomas]

To, like, pick something up.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of stuff like that that's like, left unknown also. Or like, I don't really know. There's something with Ma in the factory. Oh, Ma is at the brewery.

[Tracey Thomas]

She works at a brewery.

[Mikey Friedman]

And she's like in a romance, in a sexual relationship with her co worker. Or is that just like a tender kiss on the lips?

[Tracey Thomas]

There's like, I don't know. Yeah, the lady who comes by.

[Mikey Friedman]

The lady who comes. So it's like, again, all these things that could have been entire chapters of a normal layperson book, but we're reading this, like, insanely beautifully constructed, restrained book we don't get. But it's like there's so many things like that too.

[Tracey Thomas]

And he just trusts the reader so much. He's like, I don't know. You guys will figure it out.

[Mikey Friedman]

Read into it when you want.

[Tracey Thomas]

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the mom's in a relationship or if it's just a tender kiss. Like, all that matters is that these kids saw their mom kiss a lady. You know, like, that's it. And. And again, in your, like, theory of each of these scenes being a formative moment, that's not a nothing moment for a kid. No, especially a kid who's maybe exploring their sexuality.

[Mikey Friedman]

And I think maybe what is smart about that, is it force? Then you get into this. This habit with yourself as the reader, which is like, oh, maybe. Why do I. Why do I want to know or do I want to care?

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Like, what judgment am I bringing to some of these scenes?

[Tracey Thomas]

Right.

[Mikey Friedman]

As I try to be the adult reader in a story told through a kid's eyes.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right. I think the last thing I want to make sure we talk about that we really haven't talked about at all, but is very important to this book and I really appreciated was the racial dynamics of the book. I. So the dad in this book is Puerto Rican. He is. He is not white Puerto Rican. We don't know exactly what he looks like. We know he has like, a little bit of an afro. We know he's brown. And the mom is a white girl from New York and she's 14 when she gets pregnant and he's 16.

[Mikey Friedman]

16 y.

[Tracey Thomas]

And they go to Texas and they get married. And there's a scene very early in the book in my copy, it's on page 10 where the dad is playing music and he's like saying, like, you know, shake it like you're white. Shake it like you're Puerto Rican. Shake it like you're poor. Shake it like you're rich and, like, telling the boys to dance. And then he's like, you know, you're none of those things. You can't dance. This is how you dance. This is your heritage. He said, as if from his dance we could know about his own childhood, about the flavor and grit of tenement buildings in Spanish Harlem and the projects in Red Hook and dance halls and city parks and about his own pops, how he beat him, how he taught him to dance. As if we could hear Spanish in the movements, as if Puerto Rico was a man in a bathrobe grabbing another beer from the fridge and raising it to drink, his head back, still dancing, still stepping and snapping perfectly in time. I love this scene so much as. I mean, the dad calls them mutts. He says mutts? He said, you ain't white and you ain't Puerto Rican. Watch how purebred dances. Watch how we move in the ghetto. I love this scene so much as myself, amut famously. I just. It is so spot on the. To what it is like to be a mixed kid, like, at a young age when your parents sort of, like, mockingly know who and what you are, but the world hasn't really gotten a hold of you yet. Like, you are not fully aware of what it means, what the implications are of your existence, and also the understanding, like, that your parents are different from one another and also different from you.

[Mikey Friedman]

Mm.

[Tracey Thomas]

It's just. It's such a perfect scene. I was, like, smiling ear to ear reading this scene.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally.

[Tracey Thomas]

I loved it.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yeah. And like you said, because these. Because we don't see the siblings outside of the context of the home with other people that much.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

I can imagine an even more exacerbated those. Those feelings are even more strong in that comparison because you don't have other role models or other people to compare yourself to.

[Tracey Thomas]

Right. Right. Yeah. He just. I feel like the thing about the book is he renders so much so beautifully, but barely any of it is actually on the page. Like, all the things you think about and feel as you're reading this book and all the thoughts and. And just everything that comes up, none of it's on the page. He's not. Like, we felt shame or like, this is what it's like to be mixed. Or I'm gay now. Like, none of that happens. But you're thinking as a reader about all of these things and the intersections of all of these things. And he really has captured sort of like, in a great movie. Like, for example, in moonlight, the movie moonlight, there's not a lot of like, I'm gay, am I?

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally.

[Tracey Thomas]

But like, it is beautiful and you feel it and all of those things are there, but Barry Jenkins isn't like, are we do. Are we vibing right now? Should we make out? Like, I don't know. I just love when a. When an artist is like, I am so clear on what I want to do. You're either going to come with me or you're not. Because most of the time when an artist has that level of confidence and clarity, it translates totally.

[Mikey Friedman]

I completely agree. And I still think there's something in this book for literally everyone because it's about growing up and the loss of innocence and how you exist in the world.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yes.

[Mikey Friedman]

With your family. And maybe if you're queer or if you're of a mixed race background or other things, you might get certain, you know, certain scenes might hit more than others. But you know, Justin Taurus has just opened open the door for you to see like, humans, Right. And like, and animals, I guess, but humans and like how we exist in the world.

[Tracey Thomas]

Well, humans as animals.

[Mikey Friedman]

We are humans as animals.

[Tracey Thomas]

You know, it's like we forget that at the core we are animals. We, the animals.

[Mikey Friedman]

Animals.

[Tracey Thomas]

Is there anything else you want to say about this book before we get out of here? We are sort of at the end of time.

[Mikey Friedman]

I think we. We killed it. I'm just looking at my notes. I haven't. All caps, capital letters, fragments.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Restraint.

[Tracey Thomas]

My notes are a little chaotic for this one. Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

Sensory book. I mean, I really just think the. The sounds, the language, the individual words, how they fit together. It's such a joy to read in that sense.

[Tracey Thomas]

It really is. It's a joy to read. This book is just. It's an absolute. I mean, it's such a feat. I don't know. I'm almost scared to read Blackouts because I'm almost like, there's no way I could like it this much.

[Mikey Friedman]

Totally. Someone who I talked to about it, who's read book, they said we the Animals, by far their favorite compared to Blackouts. What I do think is cool about Blackouts too though, is it similarly, it's about, you know, as redactions. Right.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

In the text.

[Tracey Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mikey Friedman]

So that's like almost a physical prose manifestation of what we're talking about, which is like leaving things out for the reader to then fill in the gaps, which I think plays on the lost history of queer people and gay men. So I think that is a compelling idea. But I'm. Yeah, I'M excited to read anything.

[Tracey Thomas]

I'll read anything. Yeah, I'm locked in. I mean, he's gonna have to write 20 bad books for me to be like, okay, I'm done with Justin Torres. Like, I, it's, it's a new, a new all timer for me. I just. Same on this podcast. We do a lot of book club picks. It is extremely rare that I have two backto back book club picks that I just think are spectacular five star reads. And that is what is what happened between Frankenstein and this. Like, I'm just like, I don't. Our December book club pick. You'll have to listen to the end of the episode to find out what it is. I don't know that I'm going to love it this much, but I gotta say, who knows? It is an all time classic nonfiction book. So that I've never read. So it might be. I might get a three way.

[Mikey Friedman]

Three in a row trifecta.

[Tracey Thomas]

Three Pete. Three Pete. That's what we said.

[Mikey Friedman]

Three Pete. That's what it is. Yeah. I'm manifesting that for you and I'm so happy we chose this book. Thank you.

[Tracey Thomas]

For me too.

[Mikey Friedman]

This was inviting me to read this book with you. Yeah.

[Tracey Thomas]

And everybody listening. Don't forget, if you haven't yet, go check out the Page Break website. What's your website? Pagebreak.ny page break NYC.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yep. Page breakdown. I see on the web. It's both actually Page Break NYC on the web or on Instagram. And stay tuned. I think we should get. We should. We're going to breadcrumb them and tell them the dates right now.

[Tracey Thomas]

If you made it to the end of this episode, we are going to breadcrumb the dates of our stacks break retreat, which is happening in Joshua Tree. I said it at the beginning of the episode, but I'm going to say it again in case you weren't paying attention because twice as better than nuns. We're gonna be in Joshua Tree January 23rd through the 25th. You're listening to this. November 26th. You're gonna be able to sign up first week of December. So get yourself together. This is a perfect thing to put on your holiday wish list.

[Mikey Friedman]

Absolutely. This is. It's going to be so major in Joshua Tree. First page break ever outside of New York. First ever collab with the stacks.

[Tracey Thomas]

Duh.

[Mikey Friedman]

Duh.

[Tracey Thomas]

It's gonna be iconic it's the first ever collab with the stacks. It's not the first ever collab though. Ever. Right. You've collabed with others, not other book club. Oh good. Regardless.

[Mikey Friedman]

Yes.

[Tracey Thomas]

Best Ever Collab. Best Ever collab. Like obviously.

[Mikey Friedman]

Obviously. Yeah. And I can't wait. I can't wait to share it with the world.

[Tracey Thomas]

I can't wait either. And make sure you listen to the end episode to find out next month's book club pick and everybody else, we will see you in the Stacks. Foreign thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Mikey Friedman for joining the show. Here is the announcement for our book club pick for December. It is Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team and a Dream by H.G. bissinger. We will be discussing this book on the very last day of the year, Wednesday, December 31st. Be sure to tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love the Stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out our newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads, tik tok and now YouTube and you can check out our website at the Stacks Podcast. Today's episode was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McRate and our theme music is from Takirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. VRBO helps you swap gift wrap time for quality time. Go to VRBO now and book a last minute week long stay and save over $390 this holiday season. Book your next vacation rental home on VRBO. Average savings $396.00 select homes only.