Ep. 401 I'm Doing a Little Bit of Everything with Joel Anderson

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks Ep. 401 — "I'm Doing a Little Bit of Everything" with Joel Anderson

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Joel Anderson (Senior writer at The Ringer, co-host of The Press Box, former host of Slate's Slow Burn podcast)
Date: December 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and candid episode, host Traci Thomas welcomes acclaimed journalist and sports writer Joel Anderson. Their conversation ranges from Joel’s journey in journalism and his approach to sportswriting, to deep dives into media, book recommendations, and the shifting landscape of nonfiction narratives—especially by Black writers. The discussion is sprinkled with humor, thoughtful analysis, and personal anecdotes, making it an engaging exploration of books, sports, and culture.

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Joel Anderson’s Path to Journalism

(03:22 – 07:58)

• Background:
  • Joel hails from Houston, Texas—specifically Missouri City, noting the dramatic demographic shifts in his neighborhood growing up.
  • He pursued football in high school and college at TCU, but a coaching change and loss of passion led him to the campus newspaper, where he quickly rose to editor-in-chief.
  • “If I couldn’t play in a Super Bowl, I wanted to cover a Super Bowl.” (06:25, Joel Anderson)
• On Sports Journalism:
  • Joel’s sports reporting career spans nearly 25 years, moving from local papers to national platforms like Buzzfeed, ESPN, Slate, and now The Ringer.
  • He highlights the difficulties and occasional awkwardness of transitioning from athlete to journalist, especially in college environments.

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The Sporting Life: Watching vs. Covering

(07:58 – 13:43)

• Attending Major Sporting Events:
  • Both Joel and Traci share their “bucket list” sporting events—World Cup, Wimbledon, World Series—and reminisce about the energy of international fixtures.
  • Traci relays her transcendent experience at the 2006 Euro Cup in Germany:
    • “It was unreal, like, unlike anything I'd ever experienced in my life. Like, I was crying. I was so moved by the whole thing.” (09:15, Traci Thomas)
• Reporting vs. Experiencing:
  • Joel says covering games can sometimes dampen enjoyment:
    • “If you're at a game and you have to cover it, that's the best way to not enjoy it.” (12:26, Joel Anderson)
  • The tension between meeting deadlines and appreciating the moment:
    • “I'm not really watching it for the beauty and the contest. I'm looking for storylines… I'm constantly trying to figure out things instead of actually getting to enjoy the experience.” (12:52, Joel Anderson)
• Best Game Covered:
  • 2018 Rose Bowl: Oklahoma vs. Georgia—memorable for its drama and energy. (10:52 – 11:56)

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The Journalist’s Craft and Media Reflections

(13:50 – 23:26)

• Autonomy at The Ringer:
  • Joel enjoys significant editorial freedom: “It’s probably 80% me, 20% assignment.” (13:50, Joel Anderson)
  • Example: Coverage of Malcolm Jamal Warner’s passing.
• Day-After Stories:
  • “At the ringer we’re like a day after…that necessarily requires you to sort of think ahead a little bit about what might be interesting.” (16:20, Joel Anderson)
  • He aims to write accessibly:
    • “I want to write stories for people that don’t necessarily follow sports.” (17:01, Joel Anderson)
• Media Industry State:
  • Joel is frank about his pessimism:
    • “We're underreacting. I feel really scared about the future of the industry.” (18:11, Joel Anderson)
    • Laments the decline of local outlets, bad business practices, and public/media trust issues.
    • “The only way it seems that most people feel when they take over a newspaper… ‘Oh, we gotta cut it.’” (20:18, Joel Anderson)
• Journalist-Reader Relationship:
  • Readers are more attached to journalists, following them across platforms.
  • Joel notes surprise at being recognized:
    • “I did not get into journalism to be a person who anybody recognized.” (22:45, Joel Anderson)
  • Building a following is now part of the business.

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Podcasting: The Slow Burn Experience

(23:26 – 28:23)

• Transition to Podcasts:
  • Slate approached Joel to host Slow Burn’s Tupac and Biggie season, his first foray into podcasting.
  • Influenced by 30 for 30’s Ricky Henderson episode and “Becoming Oprah/Obama.”
• LA Riots Season:
  • Joel insisted on covering the LA Riots, considering it his most important work:
    • “That’s the thing that I most wanted to do, the thing I was most interested in.” (27:20, Joel Anderson)
  • Aimed to humanize figures like Rodney King, show the complexity beyond the headlines.
  • On the need for a definitive book on the LA riots, he agrees the time is now as eyewitnesses age:
    • “If it’s going to happen, it’s going to have to happen here in the next five years.” (30:32, Joel Anderson)

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Book Recommend Corner: “Ask the Stacks”

(36:35 – 42:58)

• Listener Question:
  • Marley seeks a nonfiction rec for her Philly-sports-loving, history-buff dad.
• Traci’s Picks:
  • The Sixth Man (Andre Iguodala)
  • Misunderstood (Allen Iverson)
  • The Man Nobody Killed (on Michael Stewart)
  • Heartland (Keith O’Brien, about Larry Bird) (Due March)
• Joel’s Recommendations:
  • Namath and Pistol Pete by Mark Kriegel (“just fantastic”)
  • Ladies and Gentlemen, The Bronx is Burning (on Yankees and NYC in the 70s)
• **Discussion of “dad book energy”—sports nostalgia, history, baseball stadiums.

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Lightning Round: Books & Reading Habits

(43:11 – 66:16)

• Two Books You Love, One You Hate:
  • The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson (“All Timer”)
  • Black Boy by Richard Wright (“changed my life, Professor”)
  • Friday Night Lights by H.G. Bissinger (“top three”)
  • Book he hated: Chief by Daryl Gates (“What it would be like to read a Rush Limbaugh text”)
• What He Reads for Pleasure:
  • Nonfiction about places (e.g. God Save Texas by Lawrence Wright, Boomtown)
  • City of Quartz by Mike Davis—helped with his LA Riots project
• How He Reads:
  • Nowadays: audiobooks/Kindle in the dark—“I have a three year old and a one year old…”
  • Classic ideal: curled up with a snack (apple chips) and a drink, comfy couch, cloudy weather
  • On old book dates with friends in Houston at Bookstop and Half Price Books.
• Kids’ Books and Rediscovering Joy:
  • Dr. Seuss: “I wish I had the mind to do the kind of writing he does…the Cat in the Hat, One Fish Two Fish…” (53:06, Joel Anderson)
  • Caps for Sale also a rediscovered favorite—“I’ve kind of re-fallen in love with kids books.”
• Last Book That Made You Cry:
  • The Warmth of Other Suns (“I bawled…I wish I could hug Isabel Wilkerson, man. That book was so emotional to me.” (56:14, Joel Anderson)
• Genres and Representation:
  • Laments that Black journalists are often steered only to memoir, while the genre of deep investigations like Friday Night Lights is dominated by white writers.
  • “They want you to emote about racism, right, for their audiences… but there are things that need our perspective, need our side of, to tell that tale.” (61:36, Joel Anderson)
• Books He Would Assign as a Teacher:
  • Roots (“one of the more formative books I've ever read in my life”)
  • Black Boy
• Book to Assign the Current President:
  • “The Quran. He should try to read it. It would help him.” (65:28, Joel Anderson)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the changing relationship between writers and audience:

  • “If you’re going to succeed at this business, you’ve kind of gotta be able to prove… that people follow you and they follow your work and they care about you when you say things.” (23:09, Joel Anderson)

• On the urgency of preserving history:

  • “We gotta get this, like, definitive [LA Riots] book done. Because it just feels like, you know, we're coming up on 40 years, and in what, 32. 32 will be 40 years.” (29:05, Traci Thomas)

• On reading fiction vs. nonfiction:

  • “People have told me, even KSA has told me, you should read fiction…But I don’t have time because I got to read all this other stuff that I don’t know about.” (59:08, Joel Anderson)

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Key Timestamps by Segment

| Time | Segment | |--------------|-------------------------------------| | 03:22–07:58 | Joel’s journalism origin story | | 07:58–13:43 | Sporting events & watching/covering | | 13:50–17:16 | Editorial freedom & writing goals | | 17:43–23:26 | The media landscape | | 23:26–28:23 | Podcasting and Slow Burn | | 36:35–42:58 | Book recs for Marley’s dad | | 43:11–66:16 | Book lightning round |

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Tone and Style

The conversation is highly conversational, warm, irreverent, and intellectually curious. Both Traci and Joel are candid, funny, and passionate about journalism, books, and the intersections of culture, race, and media. While touching on tough realities, there’s an undercurrent of hope in championing better storytelling and broader perspectives.

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Upcoming: Book Club

• Next Episode: Friday Night Lights by H.G. Bissinger (with Joel Anderson, December 31st)

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as both a behind-the-scenes look at contemporary journalism and a love letter to books that have shaped lives and society. Joel’s reflections offer insight into why certain stories matter, the importance of accessible writing, and the urgent need for diverse voices in nonfiction.

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For more book talk, lists, and extras, visit thestackspodcast.com or join the Stacks Pack on Patreon.

Transcript

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[B]

Can I make my site softer?

[A]

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[B]

You like, it made you laugh.

[A]

It made me. I was like, bro, this dude is ridiculous, man. Like, he's just coming into your house doing all this, and it's like, all these kids are like, man, what is going. You know, it's just like, what gives you the right to come and invade our house and do all this stuff in here? It doesn't make any sense. And I just, the thing about Dr. Seuss is like, I wish I had the mind to do the kind of writing that he does. Like, I just, as I'm reading Dr. Seuss books, like, you know, one red fish, blue fish, one fish, two fish. That kind of. I'm just like, oh, I wish I had the mind to do that. It's just, it's just amazing stuff.

[B]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracey Thomas, and today we are joined by Joel Anderson, a senior staff writer at the sports and pop culture website the Ringer, and co host of their media podcast, the Press Box. Today, Joel and I talk about being a sports journalist, the state of media today, and the many nonfiction books that shaped his life. Joel will be returning on Wednesday, December 31, for the stacks Book Club conversation around Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team, and a Dream by H.G. bissinger. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in our show notes. If you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on [e-mail] thestacks and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked at Tracy Thomas substack. Com. Each of these places is going to give you some amazing perks, like bonus episodes, community conversations, virtual book club, hot takes, and a lot more. And you get to know that by supporting the work that I do on These platforms, you make it possible for me to make this very podcast, the Stacks, free every single week. To join, go to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks pack and Tracy Thomas substack.com for my newsletter. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Joel Anderson. All right, y', all, I'm so excited. I'm talking to journalist, sports person I don't even know, writer, just, like, extraordinary person that I've been a fan of on the Internet for years, that I finally convinced to come on this show. The wonderful Joel Anderson. Welcome to the Stacks.

[A]

Oh, Tracy, you're much too kind. Thank you. I feel like this is, like, getting called up or something. You know, I saw Angela Flournoy here. I was like, oh, okay. You know, I mean, this is. These are the big dogs for real.

[B]

So I gotta say, I have been very lucky to have some extremely cool, wonderful, smart, brilliant people on the podcast. And I'm gonna consider you within that fold because I wouldn't ask you if I thought you were a dumb. Dumb.

[A]

Well, I appreciate that. I. And. And like attracts like. Right?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

They're not. They not. They not showing up to be talked to. Talked to stupidly about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah.

[B]

Thank you. Okay, so we're going to start sort of where we always start, which is like, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Like, where are you from? How did you get to be a journalist? Maybe a little bit about your relationship to books.

[A]

Yeah, sure. So, yeah, well, again, I'm from Houston, Texas originally, or a little suburb right outside of it called Missouri City for people that know the area pretty well. And that was an area that I think when I'm. My parents moved into that neighborhood, it was like we were like the second black family in there. And then by the time we. And then, you know, by the end of the 80s, our whole neighborhood was black. You know what I mean?

[B]

So there goes the neighborhood situation.

[A]

There goes the neighborhood. We helped turn that over. And so, yeah, so I'm from there. And right now, you know, I've been a journalism now almost 25 years. Well, I almost said 20, but it's 25. And the funny thing is I've always kind of known that this is what I was going to do. Like, the long and short of it is that I grew up wanting to be a football player. I was really good at sports through high school, went to college, tried to play football at tcu. And I just realized, oh, man, this is not exactly what I need to be doing or want to be doing. And not long after that, like, I went, you know, I took about a.

[B]

Week to grieve your Heisman and your super bowl trophy.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not going to play in the league. I can't believe it. You know, and then I presented myself over to the campus newspaper, and they were like, oh, can you cover the football team? Which is not a thing that usually happens at college newspapers because the football team is probably the most desired beat in a campus newspaper, but because they thought, oh, I'll be able to have sources or whatever. But that's not how I went about it. But that's.

[B]

Oh, so you didn't go in for the hot goss angle. You weren't like, oh, hey, Bob. So I know you've been like, how's that ankle?

[A]

Yeah. No, no.

[B]

Remember?

[A]

No. And, you know, because if anything, it was sort of humiliating to me to, like, go back over there and. Yeah. Because they're like, oh, you quit, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So why are you back over here?

[B]

How many years did you play?

[A]

Two.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then it was going into the spring of my junior year, and I was just like. We had a coaching change. They wanted me to change positions. I was like, I just don't want to do that. And I actually don't want to do this anymore. It just wasn't the same. Right. And so. Yeah, so that was. And so then right after that, I started working at the school newspaper. And, you know, I worked at the school newspaper long enough that my final semester, I was the editor in chief. Okay. And. But I mean, again, Tracy, I knew that. I knew that even from the time I was, like, five years old, I liked writing. I had done stuff like that. I was a prolific reader as a kid, you know, with them Pizza Hut things. I killed that. Like, I had so many personal pan pizzas. So. And I read. I read the. I read the newspaper every day when I was a kid. Like, I would read the sports section and the funnies. Or I guess they call them the funnies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, so all that stuff. So that's. That's kind of how it all came to be for me. And so I. The thing I always say is that if I couldn't play in a Super Bowl, I wanted to cover a Super Bowl, Right.

[B]

Did you. When did you cover your first Super Bowl?

[A]

Well, so that's the funny thing. I hadn't done that either. But I have covered the college.

[B]

You never done it? You never covered the Super Bowl?

[A]

I've never been to a Super Bowl.

[B]

Me neither. That's one of the few sporting events I've never been to.

[A]

Really? Okay, let me. Do you really want to go? So.

[B]

Yes and no. I'm a 49ers fan.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And my brother went to two of the last three 49ers Super Bowls that we lost, obviously.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And his sorrow was so upsetting to me from my home that I don't know that I want to feel that publicly. However, I would like to go to a Super bowl because I want. Like, I've been to the World Series. I've been to NBA Finals, many NBA Finals games, and I've been to the Euro cup in Germany. Like, I've done a lot of sports things, and I feel like I got a notch that's like a notch I gotta have.

[A]

You know what I mean? You gotta complete the circle.

[B]

Yeah. I gotta do it to go to Wimbledon really bad. Like, there's just a lot of US.

[A]

Open then, haven't you.

[B]

I've never done the US Open. Can you believe that?

[A]

Shocking.

[B]

I got into tennis right before I left New York, and it just never felt like, oh, I need to go to New York for that. But this in 2026, I think I'm going to go to Indian Wells because it's right here in Palm Springs, and I've never done it, and apparently it's amazing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. But I'm. I am always like, oh, tickets to a sporting event. Let's go. Like, this year we're going to go to the World Series or the World Classic of Baseball or whatever.

[A]

Oh, that's gonna be in Miami.

[B]

Just to go.

[A]

Yeah, why not? I mean, just. Cause I feel like international competitions are the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've never, like, just. And that's just from tv. Like, I've never. I don't even know. Yeah. They look so fun. And the crowds are just really. The people that do this stuff, they are so into the sport. Right. Like, they are really there to. To. To get into that and support their team and, like. Yeah. It's just such a celebratory atmosphere. I can't see how it wouldn't be great. So. Yeah, I have that kind of dream, too. Like, I don't. I don't think I would want to do the World cup here domestically, you know, but, like, if they ever hold the World cup somewhere else. Cool. Again, you know, I would like to be in on that.

[B]

You know, I want to go to the World cup here because it's just going to be here and L. A, I think, is Going to be the home base for the US Team. I think they have two games here. So I'm like, if I can get a ticket and group play, like, I'd love to go, but I. After going to the Euro cup in Germany and that being like the. That was hands down the best sporting experience of my life. It was the opening game. It was like at the Allianz Stadium in Munich. It was Vers, Scotland. I became a Die Hard Scotland fan. Now I watch all their, like, international games. It was unreal, like, unlike anything I'd ever experienced in my life. Like, I was crying. I was so moved by the whole thing.

[A]

Oh, wow. I mean, what is it? Just the, I guess the intensity.

[B]

The intensity, like the excitement. Just the vibes are so good.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Like the. It's just like inexplicable good vibes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We don't have that in the States with, like, sports because we don't have. We don't do like, national sports in the same way. You know, like, there are people who are just like a fan of LeBron James and like, no, like, you can't just be a Lakers fan and then just be a Heat fan and then be a Cavs fan or that's the opposite order.

[A]

But, you know, you don't carry the same. Well, okay, well, hold on then. You a college football fan?

[B]

Okay, no.

[A]

Okay, see, there you go.

[B]

I think college football is the closest.

[A]

Thing you would get that, I think, if you were into college football.

[B]

When I went to college, I went to nyu, so not going to happen. But I had a lot of friends who went and played at Cal, so I was a Cal fan when I was in college and I, like, went to some bowl games and that was fun. But Cal wasn't. It was like when cal was number one for like 30 minutes and then they would lose, you know, like, they'd have like the late game.

[A]

And was Aaron Rodgers the quarterback that year?

[B]

It was in that time frame, but it would be like I lived in New York and it would be. The late game was about to start and LSU would have lost and like, Cal is number one. And then they immediately lose and then it's like, okay, Cal's 15. But they were better than they are now. What is the best sporting event you've ever covered?

[A]

Oklahoma vs. Georgia in the Rose bowl in 2018. So Baker Mayfield had Wonder Heisman. Sure. And he played against the Georgia team that went on to lose in the final to Alabama.

[B]

Oh, was that the. Was that like the New Year's Eve game? That went on forever and ever.

[A]

Well, it ended. I don't know if that's the one. But they lost. I'll tell you how they lost. They lost in overtime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they lost on a last second. Second and 26 completion from Tua Tua to Devonte Smith. And I was in. I was in the press box for that game.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so I'm just like. I just remember. It just kind of came out of nowhere because Tua had just taken a terrible sack on first down. And we were like, oh, hell, they about to lose. And then he just throws it. He hits devontae Smith in stride, running into the end zone. And it was just. It was like we screamed. Like, it was just so shocking that the game had ended like that. And it was just such a dramatic game. So. And Atlanta's my. One of my favorite cities in the country, so it just. Everything. Everything that I wanted was right there. It was a lot of fun, so that probably was my favorite one.

[B]

Okay, so basically the reason you're here is that I just wanted someone to talk to sports with, and I never got to do that.

[A]

Yeah, we're good. Yeah, that's not true.

[B]

We have other things to talk about. But I do want to ask you this. When you're covering sports, obviously sometimes you're covering some, like, real stinkers and boring games or whatever, but when you're covering, like, a good game, are you into it or are you sitting there being like, I gotta file soon. Like, I hope this game ends. It's getting late. Like, what's the actual vibe for you as a performer, professional sports journalist?

[A]

Once you start, if you're at a game and you have to cover it, that's the best way to not enjoy it because. Yeah, because I. You're. You're totally. For me, at least. And part of this is like an anxiety thing. Like, I've got a deadline. Right. And so I'm like, all right, I got to make sure that my story's lined up. I don't want to keep my editor waiting too long. As I'm watching the game, I'm not really watching it for the beauty and the. The contest. I'm looking for storylines.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

So I'm like, all right. So I write about this person, about this. And so I'm constantly trying to figure out things instead of actually getting to enjoy the experience, like, well, I'll enjoy the days around a game, especially if it's a big one. Yeah, I like the experience of walking into the stadium. Right. And just fill in the buzz of energy from the fans. You know, you go through the media will call line, and they're all in the concourse hanging out. But, like, once the game starts, it's not a lot of fun for me, to be honest. But, I mean, you know, like, there is some excitement, there is some thrill in writing on deadline like that. It just taps into something that was. I did a lot more earlier in my career. Like, that was, as a rule, kind of the way that I was covering sports. And now I kind of do it. You know, I just come in to do, you know, the fun game or the big game. But even then, it's just not the same as sitting at home and watching it and eating my own food, you know?

[B]

Right, right, right, right. Do you now you get to pick what you write about, or do you still get assigned things?

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny because it's probably 80% me, 20% assignment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It feels tough to say this in a time when so many journalists are struggling and, like, the business is hemorrhaging, like, jobs, you know, all good, good, good journalists, all that stuff. But, like, I have a great job, right? And so I really have things where it's like, okay, I want to do this. Like, I'm just, you know, I want to do this. This is something I've been thinking about, and if I can sell it, and for the most part, it's not a hard to sell, they want me to write, then I can do it. And then every now and again, they're like, hey, do you want to write this? An example, and I was kind of prepared for it is when Malcolm Jamal Warner passed, right? And I was like, I actually have something to say about this. I want to write about this. And they. But as I was saying that, they were asking me, hey, can you write up something about that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, boom. But, yeah, for the most part, I have a lot of latitude. And I talk, you know, I'm talking with my editors all the time about, like, what I see down the line, what I think I might want to write about and what would be a good fit.

[B]

So, yeah, as you're sort of in the same way that, like, as you're watching a game, if you're covering a game, you're thinking about story. And I always love that, like, when I'm watching sports and the commentators are like, oh, this is going to change the narrative. And I'm sitting there thinking, like, all the people in the sports in the press box are getting so annoyed that, like, you know, I'm thinking about the World Series, the 18 inning game. I was thinking about all of those journalists. Like, they're so mad right now. Like, when Clayton Kershaw walked out, Basil Zoda, I was like, they're gonna have this great story. He's gonna give up the game. This is his legacy. It's gonna be amazing. And then he gets the out. And I'm like, this is a different story all of a sudden. But in the same way that you feel that, like, in moment to moment, are you thinking about the year in sports or, like, are you thinking about, like, bigger picture things? Are you trying to connect bigger picture things to write pieces that maybe say more about what's going on in sports or politics? Because you also write about culture, sort of media, broadly. So how do you come up with these ideas?

[A]

That's a good question. I mean, it really, the thing is, is I'm always just kind of writing a little. I'm doing a little bit of everything in every bucket, if I can help it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And so, but the thing is, if I'm going to be covering an event, I'm probably not going to have that much latitude. Right. Just because.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unless I've like, done a lot of prep work and I could kind of say with within a reasonable amount of certitude, what's going to happen. I kind of just got to write what I see. Right. Or like, whatever is accessible to me. But for the most part, and especially at the ringer, we're like a day after. So we do the day after story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that necessarily requires you to sort of think ahead a little bit about what might be interesting. What would people who are not following this so closely that they already know what the score is. Right. Like, what would, what would they take away from this? Like, what would be the thing that would really sum up this event in the context of whatever is going on in the sport, in the world, regionally, whatever. Right. And so that's what I'm always trying to think about. Like, I, you know, early in my life, I'm trying to remember who it was. It was a friend, maybe it was a girlfriend, I don't know. Anyway, it may have been that, but she was like, she didn't. She wasn't a sports fan, but she was like, I like the idea that you write about sports in a way that is accessible to me. I'm trying, I was trying to think about. I want to write stories for people that don't necessarily follow sports. Like, I want it to it should be as accessible to you as an entertaining to that person as it is the person that already cares. That's sort of my goal.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. Okay. I want to ask you. So you host a podcast called the Press Box on the Ringer. You co host it, and it's a really interesting show because you guys are talking about sports and politics and pop culture, but you're talking about how it's covered by the media. So, like, the sort of entry point into it is like, two journalists talking about the journalism angle of these stories, more or less. Is that how you pitch it? Is that how you.

[A]

Yeah, that's about right.

[B]

That's about right. Okay. That's the best I could do. That's good.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Okay, but my question for you then, as a person who covers the media, essentially, what do you make of this moment in the media? Like, what is the. Is going on? Should we be as worried as I think some of us are, or are we overreacting? Are we underreacting? Like, what. What's your take on media?

[A]

We're underreacting. I feel really scared about the future of the industry and, like, where it's going to go. I mean, just from the, like the loss of local outlets, for instance.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

When I. A quarter century ago, when I'm coming out of college, it would be the most likely path that you took to. In your careers that you'd start at, like, the Corpus Christi Caller Times, you know, the Flagstaff, you know, union or whatever, and you would do that local newspaper or the local TV or radio station, and then you could work your way up. You do regional work, then you may get to the national level or whatever. And like, that whole level of. Of media is kind of like hemorrhaging and dying off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so whenever I even talk to kids, like, I talk to, you know, they'll send me to, you know, colle college classes are talking. I, like, I feel bad because I'm like, what worked for me doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to be the path for you, but yeah, I mean, I think people should be concerned, and I think on both sides, because I think that, like, you know, I would like it if citizens felt invested in the future of their media. Right. If they trusted us enough and believed in us enough to want to pay for our work and want us to hold people accountable. But the flip side of that is that media hasn't done a great job of maintaining that trust, re earning that trust. And also, just like, in terms of like just bad business practices. Like, just given the way the work away early, early on. And like you people got used to seeing stuff on the Internet, now you want to charge them and it's like, well, I'm not gonna do that. I've, I've gotten used to getting my information for free. So there's just been so many things that have gone wrong along the way. And then sort of the consolidation of media, the radicalization, you know, the politicization of what is objectively supposed to be, you know, objective journalism or fair journalism or whatever. Like, you know, the right wing influences that have come in and started buying up these properties. Like, I mean, I think the Baltimore sun is owned. Oh my God, is it owned by one of the guys that owns Sinclair TV groups or something like that?

[B]

Yeah, that sounds right.

[A]

It's something like that. But it's just like that kind of stuff doesn't help because they're not really. And I, you know, I don't mean to criticize this person too much because I don't, I don't know enough to speak about it intelligently. But at a top down level, it's just like most people have not cared enough to maintain these properties and to, you know, reinforce them, give them more resources, give them more people. The only way it seems that most people feel when they take over a newspaper. And I care about newspapers because that's what I came up in. They're like, oh, we got to cut it. Like, we just got to do more with less. And I just don't. I mean, my parents used to be newspaper consumers and every, they would always complain like, man, the papers are terrible now. They're just so skinny. There's nothing in there. Why would I pay for that? And so it's like it's on both ends. It's like we need the public to care, but also like we need to make the public care. And that's. The two things are just not aligning right now.

[B]

As a journalist, do you feel like your relationship to your readers or to the audience is, has changed because there's less trust of the media in the last 10, 5, 10 years? Can you sense that?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because whereas before there's two things that have really changed. One, I've worked, now I've only worked at national outlets. So like since 2015, I've worked at Buzzfeed. Like 2015 I'm at Buzzfeed. Then I go to ESPN, then I go to Slate, then I come to the Ringer and I Think one of the things that has happened is that people, like, get more familiar with writers now. Like, they follow. Right. Kind of. You were talking about, like, basketball, how people follow LeBron or whatever. And in no means am I comparing myself to an NBA player or LeBron.

[B]

On this podcast, writers are celebrities. So I feel like you are the LeBron of sports journalism.

[A]

And I think. But I appreciate you saying it, but I refuse to accept that. But. But it's that there are people that follow me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From place to place. Right. Like, some of that is through social media. Like, they, you know, follow up my tweets or they'll see my work on Twitter or Blue sky or whatever, and they just started following me. And like, every now and again, you know, every few days, weeks, a writer, a reader will write in and say, hey, I've been following your work since you were at espn. I came across you on Bomani Jones's show, and I'm a. You know, I'm a fan. And it's just like, oh, like, that's crazy. And I did not get into journalism to be a person who anybody recognized.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, my hope was that my work would be the bigger thing. That, like, my byline would just. You know, I didn't. There were a few writers in journalism that I followed, but, like, that's not what I wanted to do. I didn't want people to know who I was. I didn't want people to know anything about my life. But that's just not how it is now. Like, if you're gonna. If you're going to succeed at this business, you've kind of gotta be able to prove to your bosses, your editors, managers, that, like, people follow you and they follow your work and they care about you when you say things. And that's kind of the way that you have to distinguish yourself now. It's just. It's not. That's not how I came into this business. That's not what I came in here intended to do. But it's just, like, in some ways, what you're sort of required to do if you want to make a career out of this.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I definitely follow writers. Yeah, like. Like journalists a lot, for sure. I mean, I was going to ask this. We're sort of running out of time in this portion of the episode, but one of the things that I love of your work is the Slow Burn podcast you hosted. I have a. In addition to having an obsession with sports, I also have a slight obsession with the LA riots. And, you Hosted that season along with the Tupac Biggie season and one other season, Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas season, of course. Did they tell you what to do? Do you pitch your ideas? How did that come about? I mean, you obviously got the best seasons. No Bill Clinton.

[A]

I appreciate you saying Nixon or whatever. Well, I really appreciate you. There was those great seasons. So the way it happened is I was at ESPN and I just then started getting into podcasts, just listening to them.

[B]

Okay, and what year is this?

[A]

This is 2019.

[B]

Oh, you're a late, late adopter on.

[A]

I'm a very late adopter. The only podcast I listened to prior to, like, 2019 was the Dan LeBatard Show. I listen to it every day.

[B]

I listen to the Tony Kornheiser show every day, two hours a day since then.

[A]

Oh, man. What's. Okay, I started listening to Dan Lebatar 2010. Right. And it was like, three hours a day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm just insane. And that's what you say. That doesn't give you time to listen to anything else.

[B]

For the most part, yeah, I listened to it. I lived in New York at the time, so I listened to it on my commute. Just, like, everywhere I went, I listened.

[A]

To it every day. New York is so great for that. That is one thing I miss about New York, just being on the train and, like, being able to catch up on all your podcasts. So, yeah, so Slate calls me and they're like, hey, we're doing a season on Tupac and Biggie. Would you be interested in doing it? And this is like, hell, yeah. Like, that sounds amazing. Like, I mean, you know, I wasn't even thinking that my career was going to go in that direction. Like, I just started listening to podcasts. I listened to 1, 2. There are two that really changed things for me. ESPN 30 for 30 did a episode on Ricky Henderson's last year in professional baseball playing. He's 46 years old, playing for a team in San Diego. And then there was Becoming Obama. That came out of wbz.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

And I listened to those, and I was just captivated. I was like, oh, what a fun, fascinating way to do this work, that becoming one.

[B]

Did they do. Did they do Becoming Oprah also?

[A]

They did Oprah, too.

[B]

That's the one I remember. I don't remember becoming Obama. I remember becoming Oprah.

[A]

I can't remember which one came first. Oprah might have been the first one. I'm not sure. But it was. I mean, they were both like, yeah, they were fantastic. And just totally changed the way that I thought about telling stories. And so when they called me about the Biggie and Tupac1, I was like, great. Now I would not have probably chosen Biggie and Tupac off the top. Like, I mean, I. That is my era of hip hop. I love both of those guys. But I knew going in with the challenges were going to be right. Right. Like, so many people have fed at that trough. So many people try to tell that story. People don't want to talk to you. I'm not no hip hop journalist.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I love hip hop and I came up in the culture, but, like, that's just not what I, you know, I've done. So the next year, 2020, I had. I always wanted to do the LA Riots. Tracy, let me tell you. I. I went and saw a documentary and it ended up winning the Oscar on Latasha Harlow.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I saw it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So that's.

[A]

So they, they, they first previewed it or they were running it during when Pop up magazine was going. And so I saw it at the Pop up magazine, and I'm sitting in the audience like, oh, shit, this is great. I want to do something about this. Like, I'm just in there, just like, okay, I gotta do it. And so I pitched it to Slate. They said no a few times. And then I got a job offer for somebody else. And the way they got me to stay was that they let me do the LA Riots.

[B]

Great, great. We love leverage.

[A]

Yeah, love leverage. And so, yeah, man. And so then I did it. And it probably is, I would say in my life, if you ask me, the most important work I've ever done. It probably was at. That's the thing that I most wanted to do, the thing I was most interested in. And I got to talk to a bunch of just great, fascinating people.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And yeah, like, I also had just wanted to tell the story of Rodney King. Like, Rodney King had just sort of been a punchline to me my whole life. Like, nobody had ever thought about, like, him as a human being, as, like, a person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And so that was, like, one of my goals for that season was to, like, humanize him and say, hey, man, this guy went through something. I know that, like, you showed up and we made jokes about him getting his ass beat by the cops, but also, like, the struggles he had in the years after. And, like, I just wanted to do something different. And so, yeah, man, that's how I got into it. I pitched that one and then I get. I pitched Clarence Thomas, and they said no. And it took a while. It took a while. It took a while for me to get the. The green light on that, but thankfully they did, and it worked out. I. To. This will be a time I toot my horn and end up winning Podcasts of the Year. The Podcast Academy.

[B]

The Clarence Thomas one did, yeah.

[A]

The Clarence Thomas one did, yeah.

[B]

They're so good. They're all so good. I just, as a. I mean, I just have, like, a deep obsession with the L. A. Riots. And so for me, like, that was so good, because I also feel like a book came out last year, like, a young adult book about. It's called Rising from the Ashes, and I obviously had that author on the podcast, like, the moment it came out.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

But there is not really, like, a comprehensive book for adults on the riots. And I can't believe it, because I'm like, these people are mostly still alive for a little bit longer. Like, we're gonna start losing more and more of the people who were there. Right. Like, Daryl Gates is gone. Not that, like, we want him, but, like, he's a key F. Like Tom.

[A]

Bradley, you know, I would've loved to talk to him.

[B]

Yeah. And so I'm just like, we gotta get this, like, definitive book done. Because it just feels like, you know, we're coming up on 40 years, and in what, 32. 32 will be 40 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm just like, we gotta do it. We gotta do it. I guess. I guess next year's 35 or two years. 35. But anyways, I just. I love that season, and I love. I just. I could. I'd read it. I mean, there's, like. There's the Latasha Harlins book. Like, there's books about each of them, but there's not, like, the book, you.

[A]

Know, So I have. And so there was a book that came out in the 90s, and a guy from the Washington Post wrote it, and it was sort of a comprehensive book, but it was very dense, and.

[B]

It was too soon to the time.

[A]

Yeah. It needed. It needs some time to cook. There's a time for people to come back to it, and I would. You know, there was a time when people were talking to me about trying to do something with it, and I was just ready. You know, Man, I spent a whole year. When you do a. The thing. The crazy thing about those podcasts is that people have told me that the thing that it's most like is, like, writing a Book.

[B]

Yeah, I believe it.

[A]

And so, like, I spent a year on that and I was ready to. I didn't want to do no more. I was like, I think I've. I've. I've cleared it up here. But yeah, man, to your point, you're absolutely right. Because, for instance, the. Our season of the podcast starts off with the video. The guy videoing it. George Holiday, the guy.

[B]

And he died a year.

[A]

He died months after we interviewed him.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[A]

Like, just a few months. He was, like, in his 60s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's like that kind of stuff happens all the time, so. No, you're right. Like, we. It's. If it's going to happen, it's going to have to happen here in the next five years. Yeah. Because that. I mean, just think. Think about how old the Watts ride scene when we were kids.

[B]

Right. I mean, I didn't even really know about them. They seem too old, you know?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

But I'm. I mean, I think we're similarly aged. Like, I remember the vibes in the house when the L. A Riots were happening. Like, I remember, you know, I've got a black dad and a white mom. I rem. Yeah, what? Like, I. It was tense is all I'll say, you know? And, like, I just. It was such a formative thing in my life that I just never could let it go. So anytime anyone does something, I'm like, I gotta read it, I gotta watch it, I gotta hear it. Like, I just love it.

[A]

Did you remember the. The Different World episode? I think it was the season premiere that. So it was like, did we so watch Different Worlds?

[B]

How old are you, Tracy?

[A]

I'm an old man. I'm 47.

[B]

Okay. Well, I'll be 40 next year, so I might. I might have been a little bit too young. You? A little young, yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I have an older brother, though, so I feel like I got a lot of, like, elder millennial stuff that trickled from him, but I missed a lot of things, too.

[A]

I don't know how much that would. It would resonate, but as a moment in time, like, you know, it was like, oh, man, they're talking about the LA riots on a Different World. It was just for the people. Dwayne and Whitley, they went on a honeymoon in la, and they're in LA when the riots break out and they get split up from each other. And the funny thing is, is that a couple of the looters that show up in this. In the. In this episode, a Roseanne Barr and Tom Arnold. And they're like, it was supposed to, you know, like, hey, white people were out there looting too. That was supposed to be in the story. It's just funny to think that Roseanne was on that side of it at that time. Once upon a time. Anyway, things change. Things change.

[B]

Okay, we are gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back. All right, everybody. These holidays, they are right around the corner. And you know what that means. It is gifting season. With this podcast, I get to give you guys the gift of exclusive interviews with authors and juicy behind the scenes book gossip every single week. And the best gift I could ask for this year in return is your support of the Stacks on Patreon and Substack. On Patreon, you can join the Stacks community. The Stacks Pack. We've got book club meetups, a private discord and a year long reading challeng help you push all of those reading goals. Also, members of the Stacks Pack do get exclusive bonus episodes every single month. Sometimes they even get two. And at this time of year, at the end of the year, there's a bunch of extra bonus content. The Mega Reading Challenge comes out in December. We've got the Reading Tracker that comes out in December and is only available through the end of January. Plus you get to vote in the Stackies, our very own literary award. And look, if Patreon isn't your thing, you can check me out over on Substack. You still get that bonus episode as part of my newsletter on Unseen Stacked. That's where I keep all the bookish conversations going. Plus, you get a healthy dose of pop culture roundups and a few hot takes. More than a few. And if you don't have a few extra dollars right now, don't worry. There are free options for both Patreon and Substack. Making this podcast is a huge team effort. And by supporting my Patreon and Substack, you allow me to support my crew. And while you're in the holiday spirit, you can give a gift subscription to either Unstacked or the Stacks Pack or or both to people in your life who love books. I even have little printable gift cards if you want to have something tangible to give them. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers and support this independent podcast, please come hang out with me on Patreon or Substack or both. I would love to have you. You can sign up at patreon.com the stacks or Tracy thomas.substack.com and of course there are links below in the show Notes as we near the end of 2025, I've been reflecting on all the amazing things I've accomplished this year with the podcast. I've gotten to interview over 50am Authors, including former Vice President Kamala Harris. I've continued to build my platform. I've reached even more bookish folks like you. As my business has grown over the last year, I've loved having a tool to help me manage it all so I can focus on what I do best. Which is of course talking a lot about books. And that's why I want to introduce you to Shopify. Shopify is an e commerce platform that powers millions of businesses across the U.S. this all in one tool has everything you need to build your business in and help you run it smoothly, including things like inventory management, payment processing, and even built in sales and marketing tools. Just use one of the hundreds of ready to go templates to build your online store and you're all set. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/the stacks. Go to shopify.com thestacks shopify.com thestacks with stays under $250 a night, VRBO makes it easy to celebrate sweater weather. You could book a cabin stay with leaf views for days. Or a brownstone in a city where festivals are just a walk away. Or a lakeside home with a fire pit for cozy nights with friends. Or if you're not a sweater person, we can call it corduroy weather. More flexible and with stays under $250 a night, you can book a home that suits your exact needs. Book [e-mail] all right. I did not prepare you for this. This is the one surprise thing that I make all of my guests do. It's called Ask the Stacks. Someone has written in. They're looking for a book recommendation. Lucky for you, I do think that this particular recommendation is tailored extremely well. It came in last week and I had just booked you and I was like, oh, I gotta give this one to Joel. So okay, this comes from Marley and Marley says I got. I got my dad Charlie Hustle for Christmas last year. That's the book about Pete Rose.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

And it was a huge hit. So I wanted to turn back to the dad book expert. He is a big Philly sports guy and love the Pete Rose deep dive he is a self described nerd and has been a reader throughout my life, but hasn't read a lot in recent years. Years. He can also be quite picky. The book really gripped him and he finished it in a few days over his winter break and I felt like I won Christmas. Another non fiction book feels more likely to be a winner than something fiction. In addition to sports, he also loves music. And he likes getting down, he likes going down, history rabbit holes, dad stuff. He can get through a denser text, but he won't tolerate pretension. A Philly based book would be the cherry on top. Any guidance would be much appreciated. So we need to give the dad at least one book recommendation. If you want to think for a second. I, I have come up with a few.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I don't, I don't feel super strong about this, Marley. I gotta be honest.

[A]

So how, how tight are they to Philly? Are they pretty?

[B]

I mean, I, I have, I have one sort of Philly recommendation.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. I don't, I don't know a ton about Philly, so. Well, first and foremost, one of my all time sports book recommendations is the Six Sixth man, which is Andre Iguodala's memoir. I think it's fantastic. And he did play in Philadelphia, so that's a small, small pseudo wreck. But there is a new book that I have not read called Misunderstood and it's Allen Iverson's memoir. So if your dad is into basketball, that might also be a Philly moment. The book that I actually think he might like that I just read is called the Man Nobody Killed. And it's about Michael Stewart who was murdered by the New York City like transit police in 1983. I believe it's sort of the first and only definitive book on this murder that ends up becoming sort of this precursor to a lot of police murders. And I think for a lot of people, they've maybe seen Michael Stewart's name in the last five years on signs or whatever, but I don't think he's gotten quite like the due diligence of other people. And so this book I thought was really good. And if your dad sort of likes history and it's told sort of in a similar way to the Charlie Hustle story. And then the other one is it's not out, it's not out till March. So this might be a pre order for your dad's birthday, but it's called Heartland and it's by Keith o' Brien who wrote the Charlie Hustle book and it's about Larry Bird. So it's a similar framing sports story, but it's about Larry Bird. And I think similarly. I don't think he's really gotten a book treatment yet.

[A]

Man, that's a good point. I'm trying to think if I've ever heard or read of a Larry Bird book.

[B]

I read there's books about like, him and Magic or like the Celtics and the Lakers, but not like Larry Bird. Indiana.

[A]

I know I read a Larry Bird book as a kid and I can't remember if it was an autobiography.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My mom got me a bunch of sports autobiographies to keep me interested. And so I know I read something about Larry Bird, but. Yeah, but that, that, that sounds like the exact right place they need to go.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Do you have anything that you can think of a good fit?

[A]

Absolutely. So I'm going to actually going to recommend two books from the same author, Mark Kriegel. Okay. And they said Charlie Hustle. So then all of a sudden I started to like, build the image of the kind of person this is. Okay. Okay. So I may not be fair. I may get this wrong.

[B]

I love it. I love it.

[A]

All right, I assume this is a. As a middle aged white guy, maybe older.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, remembers a certain time in sports and the connection to sort of like, you know, Vietnam era guys, things like that, before sport, when sports was still a big deal, but not the billion dollar enterprise. So Mark Kriegel is the writer and there's biographies about Joe Namath. It's called Namath.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And the other one is Pistol Pete, and it's about Pistol Pete Maravich.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I mean, in a lot of ways, what you're reading, when you read those two books is about like the founding days of the NFL for Joe Namath and the founding days of the NBA with Pete Maravich and how like, these white superstars helped to grow the game in the country. And like, they were the face of the sport for a very long time. And it's just like Mark Kriegel does a fantastic job with this stuff. He just actually did a biography on Mike Tyson that is also really good.

[B]

I saw. Did you read it? It was good.

[A]

I have it. I started it, but I'm way behind.

[B]

Me too. Don't worry. There's no shame here.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I have a lot of book. I have a lot of book shame. So I was looking at my stacks there. But anyway, those two books, I mean, I always go back to them because I just learned so much like, if you don't. If you've never really studied or read up on the origins of the NBA or even just Pete Maravich and, like, what he went through. I did not know that his father was, like, a great college basketball coach and that he had played for his father at LSU and all this stuff, and he had to bounce around the ABA and the NBA. Just. It's just fantastic. And the same thing with Joe Namath, which is he's kind of become a punchline as I've gotten older, because, you know, he had the very public, like, misstep with alcohol.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if you remember. Yeah, yeah. And then he also, you know, it's just. I mean, I don't know. People throw up his stats from 1973, and, like, Joe Namath sucked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's not. That's not. That is not the story of Joe Damis. Like, you really got to read up on him. So, anyway, those two books, I think you'll be. Your father will be very, very happy.

[B]

Those are great recommendations. I just thought of another book that I'm just going to throw out, which is. Ladies and gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning, which is about the Yankees and New York city in the 70s. I just. I've never read it, but I just read that guy's new book, which is called the Kings of New York. No, the Gods of New York. And it's about the 1980s in New York. And it's so good. It's probably. It's not the best book I've read this year, but I think it's one of my favorite books I've read this year. And so I want to go back and read, ladies and gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning. But it sounds like your dad would probably like it. It's 1970s baseball, which is in that same.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Era.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. You're trying to. I just. When you said Charlie Hustle, I just got, like, an image of, like, an old.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Shitty public stadium.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Concrete bowl. That's exact. City with, you know, stacks. You know, smoke stacks all around them. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Marley. If you get any of these, if your dad reads them, please report back to us. And folks who want recommendations, read on the air. You can email Ask the Sax atthestacks podcast.com. okay, Joel, you are now officially in the hot seat. Two books you love, one book you hate.

[A]

Oh, my God. Two books I love. One book I hate. The Warmth of Other Suns All Timer. Favorite book. I'm not going to pick the one that we're going to talk about. So black boy Richard Wright.

[B]

Okay. We. The one that we're going to talk about so people know, in case you missed the announcement, is that we're talking about Friday Night Lights, which I have never read and is one of your all timers.

[A]

It's top three. Those are, those are my three of my top five.

[B]

And without giving anything away, not without saying too much, because we're gonna spend a whole hour on Friday Night Lights. Can you just say why you wanted to pick it? Like, what, what, what is it about that book that makes you think that people should read it and would like it or.

[A]

Well, first of all, I think that because. Okay. And I should say this off top. Never seen the TV show. Oh, I saw the movie and I did not like it.

[B]

I didn't see the movie. I love the TV show. And I just started the book last night, last week, so very excited.

[A]

You're okay. Yeah. So if you read the book, it has nothing to do with any of those things. Right. Like, the movie is sort of close to what you get in the book. In, in the book. But it's a totally different thing because it's not just really about football. It's sort of about, like, Reagan's America and the oil bust in Texas. Like, so it's a, a part of the country that is sort of having to redefine itself amid, like, all this economic and cultural and social turmoil. And the one thing that they've got in Odessa, Texas, is football. Right. And it's high school football. And you just think about, like, how much. Anyway, I don't want to go too far because I was starting to wind up.

[B]

Don't go too far. I just wanted you to tell people why? Because I just, I'm, I'm super excited as a sports person. But what I can say so far, I'm on chapter two, is that even if you don't give a flying about sports or high school football, this is this. I can see how this book has been so formative for so many of the journalists that I love because it came out in, like, 1980. It's covering 1988 football season. And just like the way that sort of investigative journalism where you're tying culture and sports and it's like, oh, I see what's happened here. This book is like a text that other texts are born out of. Okay, what's your book you hate?

[A]

All right. It's tough because, you know, I'm not a person that could really stick through a book that I don't like, but I did have to read Daryl Gates memoir, Chief Chief by Daryl Gates.

[B]

Oh, and you hated it. You had to read it for.

[A]

I had to read it for Slow Burn and to get familiar. And I was like, okay, this is what it would be like to read, like, a Rush Limbaugh text.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know what I mean? Or Bill O'Reilly or something like that. I was like, okay. He's like the. You can see he's sort of like the forefather to their style, basically.

[B]

He was them. He was like, yeah, they're. God, what kind of reader are you?

[A]

I'm always reading something. Okay. So I need. I do need to give myself credit for that. But the reason I'm reading is usually before work. All right. I don't want to give it away right now, but I'm working on something that is going to come out probably in a few weeks, unfortunately. And I'm reading a biography on this person right now. Right. And so that's usually how I come across a book. And I'll just get what is the best book on this person, on this city, on this thing, and I will dig in. And so, like, that's usually what I have going when I'm reading. I very rarely get to read for pleasure anymore.

[B]

But if you do, what would you read?

[A]

Ooh, if I got to read for pleasure?

[B]

Yeah, like, if you. If it's like Joel's going on vacation, what I want to read most in the world is this kind of book, man. This book.

[A]

People tell me that reading books about, like, places. So hear about this one. There's one. God Saved Texas by Lawrence Wright, for instance.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The writer of Texas Monthly. Like, I've not read that book. I've had that book. I've moved it from place to place. Okay. And eventually I'm going to read it. But, yeah, like, I love to read and learn about why places become the places that they are. Another, like, boom. Like, Boomtown. I don't know if people have read that. Like, reading that kind of stuff is just totally, you know, opens my whole mind up because I just. I. I tell this to people. I did not go on vacations as a kid. Like, my parents didn't take us nowhere, so when we left out of town, we just went to visit family in Arkansas. So I have, like, an insane curiosity about every part of this country.

[B]

And so, like, besides Arkansas.

[A]

Besides Arkansas. And I still haven't read the great book on Arkansas yet. So I'm in the market for that.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

But, but so that's, so that's kind of like what I would like to read about places if I could.

[B]

I love that. What is the last really great book you've read?

[A]

Oh man, that's a good question. Oh. City of Quartz by Mike Davis.

[B]

Okay. Is that the city book you were saying before that you couldn't think of or different one?

[A]

This, it was a different one. But, but this one helped me with Slow Burned LA Season and I finally got around to finishing it up. Like I just kind of skimmed it and I was like, I want to finish. Mike Davis died, I think. Yeah. A couple, a couple of years ago. And I was like, I owe it to him to finish this book because he's so. It just, it's just every, that book.

[B]

Is everything I need to read it. I, I, for some reason I just am not. I've never been that curious about LA as a city, but I know that I would once I open that door, maybe that I'm going to put that on my top of my list for next to make sure I get to it. You.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, I mean, it's just I find because maybe because I'm not from there or whatever. Yeah, I find LA to be just the most fascinating place in the world.

[B]

Like, I see, I feel that way about New York. Like I'll read any book about like recent New York history, anything about New York from like 1960 forward. I'm obsessed with.

[A]

Oh man, I had to tell you about my idea for a book. Then one day then, okay, we can.

[B]

Do it off air.

[A]

I'm not going to tell you.

[B]

Okay, what's like a book. What's your go to recommendation?

[A]

Friday Night Lights. Obviously I recommend Ralph Wiley, what Black People Should Do Now, Dispatches from the Intervention. So Ralph Wiley is the most influential writer in my life. Like he's the reason why I want to do what I want to do. And so if I ever get to that point with that person, I'm just like, read this. Like, this is just, you know, it's basically a collection of essays. And I just, I have not met anybody that thinks like that or write like that anymore in life. And so that is one of the books. Another one is called the New New Thing by Michael Lewis and. Oh yeah, and it's actually about sort of the foundation of Silicon Valley and like the people that were, that founded it and built that industry up in the Bay. And Yeah, I mean, I just, I learned so much, like, that's not real. I'm not really of that world. And when I moved there, I was like, I want to get my hands around like how all this happened. And I think it's just good for understanding like how the economy has been shaped and the people that shaped it. So, yeah, probably those two.

[B]

Do you have any like. Or how do you like to read? Snacks and beverages? What's the temperature? Where are you? What's like your ideal reading situation?

[A]

So let me explain that. I cannot do it now because I have a three year old and a one year old and so what I'm usually doing is I'm listening to an audiobook in bed or I'm reading my Kindle in the dark, you know, as my kids are sleeping. Right. Yeah, but the way that I used to like to do it is that, yeah, it's kind of that like I would just get in bed, you know, maybe a little early or on the weekend and yeah, maybe I have a little snack or you know, something.

[B]

What kind of snack?

[A]

Oh, man. Well, apple chips. I love apple chips. Oh, is that bad?

[B]

Not a healthy snack?

[A]

Well, I mean, it ain't that healthy. It's got a lot of snacks.

[B]

I know a lot of people like healthy snacks and I just have to get over that. I'm the only person who still eats like your three year old.

[A]

Oh, no, trust me, I eat terrible. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm, you know, I'm hiding snacks in this office right now.

[B]

Good.

[A]

You know? You know, I mean, it's legal now. I like a little gummy, you know, saying, get myself feeling right, you know, something to drink and. Yeah, man, and I'll just sit down in a nice. On a nice comfy couch and curl up next to the light with, you know, maybe it's a little cloudy outside or whatever. And like that is my. That's my vibe. Like, that's, that's that. If I could get back to that at any point in my life, I'll look forward to that.

[B]

I love that. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

[A]

Man, so my favorite bookstores don't exist anymore. Yeah, they. They close. You know, I've moved, so things change. But when I was in Palo Alto, Kepler's, which was down the street from Stanford.

[B]

Kepler's isn't closed though, is it?

[A]

No, Kepler's is open.

[B]

I'm sorry, I was gonna say, I think Kepler's is still there.

[A]

Oh yeah, Kepler's is still there. But my two favorite bookstores were in Houston and people from Houston at least will know this. It used to be the bookstop and it was in a bookstop on shepherd in the Montrose area. And it used to be like an old movie theater. And so you would descend down and walked down, and there were books on. On either side. And I just. I love it. And then there was a half price books near Rice University in Rice Village. And it shut down. And I'm so hurt by it. But I would always just go through there and just take my time. Like I used to. I used to have my buddy, man, and I'm a shout out my boy Ed. And he's the only person in the world I would do this with. We went on book dates, man. Like, we would just be like, yo, let's just go to the bookstore. And we'd be there for two hours and just kind of post up, get a couple books, figure out which ones we're going to buy and whatever. And so we would go to those two in particular and just make our time. So I missed.

[B]

That sounds so good. Yeah, I'm so good. Okay, what's the last book that made you laugh?

[A]

Oh, man, the last book that made me laugh. Oh, you know what? You know, I've had to start reading books to my kids now, man. And so the Cat in the Hat.

[B]

You like, it made you laugh?

[A]

It made me. I was like, bro, this dude is ridiculous, man. Like, he's just coming into your house doing all this. It's like all these kids are like, man, what is going. You know, it's just like, what gives you the right to come and invade our house and do all this stuff in here? It doesn't make any sense. And I just. The thing about Dr. Seuss is like, I wish I had the mind to do the kind of writing that he does. Like, I just. As I'm reading Dr. Seuss books, like, you know, one red fish, blue fish, One fish, two fish. That kind of. I'm just like, oh, I wish I had the mind to. To do that.

[B]

It's just like all the made up words and stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you read Fox Socks and Fox Fox Socks?

[A]

Yes, Fox and Socks. Oh, my God.

[B]

That one is like the. It's. I have the. I experience extreme joy when I read that book to my kids because it's so hard. It's like such a tongue twister. It's like, no, sir. You, sir, Mr. Fox, sir, do, sir.

[A]

Worse. Don't be dumb, sir. Yeah. He says, like, don't be dumb, sir.

[B]

I was like, why are you talking.

[A]

To him like that? Damn.

[B]

Like, I can't do this gibber. Jabber.

[A]

Yeah, I was like, man, I just. So, yeah, so that's off. And there's another book that I read to my kids called Caps for Sale. That one, it's. Oh, it's. Oh, it's. Apparently it's old school book, but it's. It's about a peddler, a hat peddler, and he goes for a walk one day and gets tired, sits down and monkeys take all the caps off of his head. And so it's just a very. I was just like, oh, man, I just love the way I've kind of re. Fallen in love with kids books. Like, one of the good things about having kids, I was like, oh, this is like, it doesn't have to be a joke. Like, these are books that are, like, really thoughtful, really smart, really creative. And it's just kind of. It just taps into something else in your mind that, like, it's like, oh, I could use that as an adult. Like, I'm happy for that.

[B]

So, yeah, some of them are really good. Some of them hit home sometimes I'll be reading them and I'll be like, whoa. Okay, message. I see you.

[A]

Yeah, where's that come. Oh, I mean, Green Eggs and Ham. I'm just like, there's a real message in there. And I try to remind my kid. I was like, you say you don't like this. You don't know. Try it. You don't know it.

[B]

Try it, try it and you will.

[A]

See and you'll see.

[B]

Try it and you may see that one's also written. It's not iambic pentameter, but it's like iambic octameter. Oh, see, it's like perfect. I ams, but I taught a Shakespeare class this year, and I use that because it's like, basically Shakespeare. It's like perfect analysis. Anyways, I love Green Eggs and Ham. Okay, what about the last book that made you cry?

[A]

Oh, what? Warmth of Other Sons I got to the End. And I mean, that might be. Yeah, I mean, I just. I bawled. I was just like, man, like, just the idea that these people went through that. And I think it was the woman in Chicago. I can't remember her name off the top of my head. It ends with her. And, like, she's in her 90s and she's living in Chicago and she got a chance to go back to Mississippi briefly, too. And I just. Yeah, my heart just went out to them. I was just like, man, those people. This country owes those people so much more than they ever got. From it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, like at the end of it. And it also, like, it reflected my parents story. Just mine too. Yeah. And I just. It just really touched me. And so. Yeah, like, I. I cried at the end of that book.

[B]

For sure. I call that book a book of my life. It's like one of the most important books to me that I've ever read.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Okay. Yeah. My dad basically took the exact same journey as the Doctor.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Who goes from, like, Louisiana through. Yeah. Through Texas, and then he goes up to the Bay and then comes back down to la.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My dad went from Louisiana to la. I mean, to Oakland or the Bay Area, but it's like there's so many pieces of that life that like, match and it was around the same time.

[A]

Where's your. Where's your father from? Louisiana?

[B]

Baton Rouge.

[A]

Okay. All right. My mom is from West Monroe, and so he. She's actually. I think the Doctor is from Monroe.

[B]

I think so too.

[A]

Yeah. Right. So like that, you know, I'm locked in now, you know, when I came.

[B]

Yeah. You're like, oh, hello. Yeah. I was definitely like, wait a second. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then it just makes sense. I was like, oh, I've got family in California, in Oakland and la. And then you barely, like, you don't know. Right. At least for me. Right, right, right. Yeah. So anyway, I was like, okay, it's all coming together. So. Yeah, to your point, I. I mean, I wish I could hug Isabel Wilkerson. Man, that book was so emotional to me.

[B]

So. Yeah, that book is so good. Is there a book that you feel proud to have read?

[A]

You know what? So there is a book that I read called Ghetto, and it's about the history of the word and, like, sort of the etymology of it and, you know, from, you know, ancient times to, like, how Jewish folk were cordoned off into these areas. They're called ghetto. And I just thought I. I wanted to write something about it, and I didn't quite know what, but, like, I just thought it was important. It was just something that was sort of way out of my. I guess the only reason I bought that book is because it said ghetto. Sure. And it just caught my eye and I was like, what's up?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and so that's how I buy books often. I'm like, what's that about?

[B]

What is this?

[A]

What is this? Yeah, sounds good. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like you and I have very similar reading taste. Really, as you're talking about. Because I love nonfiction. I love, like, books that do, like, Deep dives into places or people. And it's like, it's about one thing, but it's really about the bigger context of the thing. So I just feel like we have. I'm. I'm, like, taking a lot of notes.

[A]

Oh, well, you know what? Yeah, because you know what? And I don't know if you're like this. Well, first of all, I wasn't a good student. Like, I was just kind of.

[B]

I was a good student.

[A]

Okay? I was a bad. I had a 2.7.

[B]

You were a football player. You could have just done.

[A]

That's not an excuse.

[B]

I know, but that's why you didn't have to be a good student. You probably could have been a good student, but you didn't have to be because you were a football player.

[A]

You know what else I was at? I also had adhd, and I didn't know that until, like, very recently. And I was like, oh, that's why I didn't study. Like, I was like, no wonder. That was so difficult. But because of that, because of, like, my. My study habits or whatever, I feel like I need to catch up on everything. Like, I want to learn everything. I want to know about everything that I can. And so, like, I don't. I. I. People have told me, even KSA has told me, you should read fiction, you know, like, get. You know, which.

[B]

It.

[A]

You know, it would just open my mind up, and I know that it would, but I felt like I don't have time because I got to read all this other stuff that I don't know about. And so, like, that's. That's how I'm sort of. My book choices are governed.

[B]

I read more fiction than I would like because of this podcast.

[A]

More.

[B]

They were up to me, like, before I started the show. Yeah, I. I started tracking my reading when I got back into reading in 2016. 16. And I was reading 80% non fiction and 20 fiction. Now it's more like 65 non fiction.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But if it were up to me, I would read investigative journalism all day, every day for the rest of my life.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Like a journalist doing. Doing their thing.

[A]

So you don't feel the fiction doing anything to yourself then, huh?

[B]

No, I mean, there are some amazing novels. Like, I just read Frankenstein for the first time, and it is unfucking real. It is so good. And I was like, this book is amazing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I don't know that. I mean, I'm glad I read that. And that probably would be part of the 20% of fiction that I would like to read. But a lot of fiction I don't like. I just, it doesn't do for me what nonfiction does. It doesn't like, make me feel. And a lot of people say the opposite. A lot of people think nonfiction is so boring and blah, blah, blah. So I get it. I just, if I didn't have like a podcast to program for my reading, would probably look even more nonfiction and I'd have more time. Like a book that I've been wanting to read for years that I own that's right behind me on the bookshelf is that behind the Beautiful Forever is by Katherine Boo, which I know you love, right? She's like one of your favorite people. But, like, I just have never gotten to it. And like, that's a book that if I didn't do this show, I probably would be reading tonight, you know, So I obviously love the show, grateful for listening. But if, if I were left to my own devices, it would, I would read even more nonfiction and even more like, of the same kind of nonfiction. The hard part is that, and maybe you can change this, there's not enough black writers writing those kinds of books. There's not enough black writers writing Friday Night Light style deep embed books. You know, like When Crack Was King. I don't know if you got to read that, but that was amazing and was sort of like one of the closest books to do that in a long time. A lot of black writers books end up being like memoir, which I like memoir, fine, But I'm just like, what about all these amazing black journalists who could be doing John Krokauer or Patrick Radden Keefe or whatever, like my faves?

[A]

Well, because that's really the opportunities that are given to us as a writer, right? Like, I know that like they want you to write about. They want you to emote about racism, right, for their audiences. And I'm just kind of like, all right, I'm not that I'm beyond that at all. I can do that, but I want to do that on my own time. Like, also, like, part of this is I'm mission minded about my work, man. You know, and there's only, there's things that I think need our perspective, need us to. I need our side of, to tell that tale. And so, yeah, so to your point, like, that's exactly like where I go about doing what I do. And I hope I can do that with a book someday. We'll see.

[B]

I hope so too. I'll read it, I promise.

[A]

As I said, I'm gonna talk to you about the other one. We'll see.

[B]

See? Yeah. I can't wait. Let me just ask you, like, two more.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

One is, if you were a high school teacher, what is a book that you would assign to your students?

[A]

I mean, they would never allow me to do it now because of the climate of this country. Roots. Oh, I read Roots when I was in high school, man, and that was one of the more formative books I've ever read in my life.

[B]

I've never read Roots. I saw the movie, of course, multiple times.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. They used to run it all the time when we were younger. Like, it was on tv.

[B]

My dad was like, you're going to watch this?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, the book is fascinating. Like, I mean, if I know that people have, like, kind of like, you know, they're sort of the history of Alex Haley and some of the stuff behind the book, like, you know, there's some questions around it. Right, okay. But if you read the book in and of itself, like, it is just a fantastic storytelling. The characters in the book. I mean, I just. I. And I think it does a really good job of, like, laying bare not only the horror of slavery, but, like, the humanity of the enslaved. Right. Like, you get to see them as something other than, like, figures getting beaten to death or whatever.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so maybe that. But, yeah, I don't know. Maybe Black boy. I mean, Black boy is just, like, just king for me, man. Like, that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That book changed my life, Professor.

[B]

I love that. You'll appreciate this. When I was pregnant with my twins, I was at a book event, and I got to meet Levar Burton, and everybody there was like, oh, my God. Reading Rainbow. And I was not a Reading Rainbow kid. But he came up to me and he was like, oh, are you pregnant? And I was like, yeah. I mean, I was. I was huge. My kids came, like, it was literally December 9th, and my kids were born December 22nd. Like, it was right there. I was like, yeah, I'm pregnant with twins. And he was like, like, may I. May I bless you. And he, like, put his hand on my stomach and then said things. I don't remember what he said, but I immediately called my brother, and I go, kunta Kinte, bless the twins. Everyone else, like, Reading Rainbow. I'm like, kunta Kinte. I don't. I don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

That's a beautiful thing. I mean, some people, my mama probably would come to him as the Star Trek guy. You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's her joint with him.

[B]

A lot of people know him as Star Trek. I. He's going to me, so I can get that.

[A]

I'm pro. I'm probably in between, you know. But I. I watch Reading Rainbow a lot. I mean, that was my joint, you.

[B]

Know, I never watch. I haven't. I sort of watch. I watched it, like, as an adult to know what people were talking about.

[A]

Well, you are. I mean, you're just young enough.

[B]

But I feel like people younger than me talk about it, but I can't tell if that's just the Internet and people being like, oh, my God. Reading Rainbow.

[A]

I'm like, really? I think. Because I just. I don't know, maybe it was on then, I guess. I know it was PBS kid.

[B]

Like, I watch sesame street.

[A]

Electric company. Ye.

[B]

I. So I was too young for electric company.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Because I think electric company wasn't that, like, early 80s, late 70s?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean. And actually, I'm pretty sure I caught the tail end of Electric Company.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. Okay, last question for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Everybody has to answer it. So if you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

[A]

The Quran.

[B]

Look, okay, we love it. We love it. I actually don't think anyone's ever suggested that to him on the show. I could be wrong, but I like it.

[A]

He should try to read it. It would help him. I don't know.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

They'll give him a little spirit. Yeah.

[B]

Well, everybody, this has been Joel Anderson. Joel will be back on Wednesday, December 31, to discuss Friday Night Light by Buzz Bizzinger. Even though it's not Buzz, it's HG Bizzinger. He decided later in life to go back to his, like, nickname.

[A]

He's a character man.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

He's a kid.

[B]

I gotta look him up. But we'll be discussing that the last day of the year, December 31st, so make sure you read with us. And, Joel, this was amazing. Thank you so much. This was such a delight.

[A]

Thanks for making me feel smart for afternoon. I appreciate it. I was a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. It was an honor.

[B]

All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Joel Anderson for joining the show. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights. A Town, A Team and a dream by H.G. bissinger, which we will discuss with Joel Anderson on Wednesday, December 31st. If you love the stacks, if you want inside access to it? Head to patreon.com thestacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media. We are at the Stacks Pod on Instagram threads, TikTok and now YouTube and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clements. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrate and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. Shopify's Point of Sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell? Thanks. Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify.com listen shopify.com listen.