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- [00:01]
A
You know, because I had this sort of overwhelming experience of writing Salt Fat Acid Heat, making the show, putting them out in the world, it did overwhelm my life and it uprooted me from whatever I was grounded in and I kind of got like tumble, tossed and tumbled like a tumbleweed. And so I in order to even be able to think about making another book or cooking again, I had to sort of explore and understand the role that cooking could play in, in my own life or in a good life.
- [00:40]
B
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracey Thomas and today we are joined by James Beard Award winning chef, TV host and author Samin Nosrat to discuss her newest book, Good Things, recipes and rituals to share with people you love. In this cookbook, Samin shares over 125 of her favorite go to recipes including Ricotta Custard pancakes, Saffron burnished roast chicken and a nostalgia inducing yellow cake with chocolate frosting that I am dying to make. Today, Samin and I talk about what it means to live a good life and how that principle led her to writing this book. We also talk about holiday season do's and don'ts and she shares about her struggle to write again after the success of her first cookbook. So Salt, Fat Acid Heat. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, A town, a team and a Dream by H.G. bissinger. We will discuss that book on Wednesday, December 31st with Joel Anderson. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes. If you like this podcast. If you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each place offers different perks like community conversations and virtual book clubs over on Patreon and my writing and hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture news on Substack. Plus, on both platforms you have access to monthly bonus episodes. Your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week and to make it free for all. To join go to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and go to Tracy Thomas substack.com for my newsletter. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Samin Nostra.
- [02:24]
All right everybody, I am so excited. We're at the end of the year, but I couldn't finish 2025 without doing at least one cookbook episode and I am thrilled to be joined by a legendary food Person across all sorts of platforms. Their latest book is called good things, recipes and rituals to share with people you love. I am here today with Samin Nosrat. Welcome to the stacks.
- [02:51]
A
Nice to meet you. Thank you so much for having me.
- [02:54]
B
I'm so happy to have you. I have to tell you. So I'm sure everyone's like, I love salt, fat, acid heat, and I do, but that was the very first book club cookbook we ever did on this podcast back in 2019.
- [03:05]
A
So. Awesome.
- [03:06]
B
Yeah. So this. You started my real love of actually just sitting down and reading a cookbook cover to cover.
- [03:13]
A
That's awesome. I'm so happy to hear that, because that book I really wanted for people to read. Oh, we know that people. I mean, and many have. But, yeah. So I'm so happy to hear that.
- [03:25]
B
Yeah, it was such a great experience. So coming back to this book, I was thinking so much about that experience and how many cookbooks I've since read and how I've changed as I think about. Because I love to cook. I've always loved to cook. But actually sitting with a cookbook and reading it was so different than how I used to use cookbooks. So I guess the question is, as a person who makes cookbooks, how are you thinking about these two kind of different types of cookbook consumers, if you will?
- [03:54]
A
I mean, those are just like two of many sort of variables that I'm always thinking of, that the audience sort of comes just different in terms of types of audience. And so. And I make myself sick sort of trying to anticipate all of the possibilities and trying to. To, like, prepare for them and respond to them in advance. So.
- [04:18]
Yeah, I, you know, I myself am, I would say, a reader first and a cook second. And so I try to make things that are pleasurable to read, but also as a cook and as a cooking teacher, just as like a food person, I feel like my role is to teach and to serve and to be of service. And so I don't want to. It's just a juggle. It's like a juggling act to make sure that I'm balancing both the craft of writing and doing, you know, as well as I can as a writer on the page and sort of being, you know, what. Being funny with my words or whatever. And then also making recipes, you know, part of. Actually, I think what makes a recipe not intimidating is a. Is length. And so sometimes serving myself or like, serving my desires as a writer by saying everything I want to say or being as funny or wordy Actually doesn't serve the recipe or the reader as a cook, you know, the cook.
- [05:21]
B
Yeah.
- [05:21]
A
Kind of reader. And so I often have to sort of make a lot of choices about that. But it's funny because I'm sure we'll talk about this. I'm sure you'll ask me about my sort of hesitancy in relationship to recipes, and I'm pretty open about that. But one thing that I've sort of learned about myself both in the making of this book, but also in the talking about this book since it came out is that I think, I think of the format of the recipe and the structure and the constraints of a recipe a lot like the format of a poem and the, and the various sort of shapes and types of poems. And so in, you know, economy of language or just like, like format and structure on the page, the way it looks, all of those things in so many ways I think are informed by my own sort of love of writing and poetry and literature.
- [06:10]
B
Yeah. Okay. I have so many follow up questions. The first one is, you said a reader first, a cook second. Where does writer fall?
- [06:19]
A
Probably I would. It's complicated. Like, like I think in my identity I still walk around being like, I'm a cook. I'm a cook. I look at the world like a cook, because the cook cook part of me is very much like the efficiency part of me. And the, you know, it's the part of me that like when I'm on the freeway and people are going slowly, I'm like, what are you doing? Let's get organized here. People like, you know, or just like, like, it's like I want things to be orderly and make sense. Yeah. And then the writer part of me is like the dreamer part of me and the, and the very inefficient part of me. And that was really something I had to come to terms with and was very painful for me during salt fat, acid heat. Because as a cook you're, you're really trained to search for efficiency and, and like aim for it in every way and in, and especially in the creation of everything. Right. Like, let's figure out the sort of component steps of something and then work backwards, figure out from where our desired result and put the steps in order so that we can get there in the like, tidiest, cleanest, fastest way possible. And maybe there are people who are able to write like that, but I am not. And so I have found that my writing process is like disorganized, very inefficient, very sort of like, you know, the only thing I can control is just keep coming back and day after day, but I cannot control sort of the flow or the order of things, or I can often see in my mind's eye where I want to be. And I'm just often very frustrated about how I get there or don't get there. And so in the beginning, until, you know, at some point occurred to me, oh, I am causing myself so much pain by approaching writing as a cook and trying to sort of force this into. Yeah. Like, in. Streamline it, you know, because there's so much wasted writing or quote, unquote, wasted writing. There's so much writing that. That, like, doesn't ever appear in a book. Or there's so many times I have to write and rewrite something until it becomes the orderly, organized thing that I want it to be or say or feel like what I want it to say or feel. And I've all I had for a long time understood that to be wasted effort and wasted time. And now I just understand, like, that's the rope, that's the road. The road is really curvy and ugly and scary, and so. And there's just two different roads. So. But I also love story, and I, like, look at the world through a narrative lens and through. Yeah, like, everything I consume, I consume through a narrative lens. And so I probably am 50, 50 cook and writer. Like.
- [09:03]
But my personality. Yeah, I would say maybe my. My personality is cook and my, like, identity is writer. Yeah, it's like.
- [09:12]
B
It's like sunshine is cook.
- [09:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [09:14]
B
Rising. What I find really interesting about what you're saying, and it's something I talked about with a friend of this podcast, my friend Greta, is that I love to cook. I relate to a lot of the sort of perfectionist efficiency stuff that I've heard you talk about, but that also definitely comes up in this book. Like, there's a. Early in the book, you talk about how writing the recipes was, like, so much torture for you and, like, making sure everything was perfect. And there's a part where you're talking about flour, and you're like, this is how much this flour weighs. And it's like, I can feel you. I can feel myself in you as, like, I need to get this right, because everyone's going to be mad at me if this exact thing isn't perfect and this and that. And there's, like, this sort of expectation, and I need to deliver this, and I need to do that. And hearing you say that your cook identity is Sort of this efficiency thing, which doesn't quite square for me. And I want you to kind of explain it to me with what I think about people who develop and create recipes, which is this really creative sort of. You're kind of futzing around, you talk about this. I think it was al pastor that you couldn't quite get right. And you're doing it over and over. And in my mind I'm thinking of it more in the way that you're describing writing. Whereas when I cook, I love a recipe and I don't think of cooking as being creative to me at all. I think of it as something that I do to sort of relax. It's something that I am creating, but I'm really just following. It's like paint by numbers. I'm just following what you tell me to do. And maybe I'll liven it up, maybe I won't. After I read Salt, Fat, Acid Heat, I thought I'm gonna be a person who just emulsify this, like drop in a little acid.
- [10:52]
A
Oh, whoops, put a little more of this.
- [10:54]
B
That never happened for me. I still, I need a recipe. I love a recipe. So I guess it's sort of this distinction between a person who actually creates food from vibes, like it sounds like you do a lot, versus like how I think about it because I think about it much more like, I guess like I'm trying to be efficient, I'm trying to do it right. But you can't be because you're making it up. And it is actually truly creative for you.
- [11:20]
A
But.
- [11:20]
B
But not the way that you're describing writing. So I don't know that's a lot. But you're kind of getting at.
- [11:26]
A
Okay, I kind of. I get where you're going.
- [11:30]
You know, I like to use the mute, like musical metaphors I feel like are really helpful here.
- [11:35]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [11:36]
A
So there's different types of cooking that I do. So there's the type of cooking like when I go to the farmer's market or I pulled all the things out of the garden and I'm so inspired and I am going to be in that like totally creative sort of free flowing mode that you're talking about that I think is what you're imagining.
- [11:54]
B
Yes.
- [11:54]
A
And I do have that sometimes. I don't have that all the time. And when I'm deciding what to put in a book on the page or when I'm trying to communicate something about cooking and how to cook and instruct another person, it's not really like that. Okay, so.
- [12:15]
That'S. I think where. Where the. Where the difference is, is, like, when I'm doing it for my. And so one might be described as, like. Like when I'm going to the farmer's market or the garden or, like, just letting myself do whatever with whatever I have. You can think of that as, like, jazz. Right. Whereas the other stuff is, like, practicing my chords and teaching somebody like, little Mary had Marietta, little lamb.
- [12:38]
B
Got it.
- [12:39]
A
Or whatever, you know, in music class. And they're related because both, right. Involve technical proficiency. Both involve knowing very basic things, which in. In music might be notes and chords. Right. In cooking might be salt, fat, acid heat might be, like, foundational sort of tenets of whatever cuisine you're. You're working with. Or just basic things like how to peel an onion and how to slice it. You know, just like, basic skills. And so one is, like, being in. In the creative flow mode, and one is more like, I'm gonna go to. I'm going to work now or I'm going to school now. And I don't really think of, like, the professional cooking that I do from, like, when I'm. And this. I say this as a person who hasn't worked in a restaurant over 10 years or longer, like, but the type of cooking that if I went somewhere and I was given a dish to. To execute by a chef and I was told to make 100 or 500 of that thing, I would not be in my creative mode. I would be in my, like, orderly efficiency. How much time do I have? How do I do this mode? And so I think that's where it can get a little confusing. And honestly, this is something I think about a lot because cooking, I. When I was a very young cook.
- [13:55]
I was sort of a. Like, a tyrannical figure in. In any of my. In any friend's home, you know?
- [14:02]
B
Yeah.
- [14:02]
A
And so I would take the, like, energy with which I was being sort of tr. Work into people's homes, and I'd be like, what are you doing? Like, you can't do that. That's not how you cook beans. That's how you make cornbread.
- [14:13]
B
What do you.
- [14:13]
A
That's not how you use a cast iron pan. That's not how you hold a knife. You're doing it totally wrong. And someone would be like, well, my mom, who's from Mexico, taught me to make beans, and this is how she does it. And I'd be like, oh, well, she's wrong. You know, like, right, right, right, of course. And I would And. And over time, I. I had to realize, like, oh, I'm being taught these, like, very specific Western techniques from a very specific, you know, culture or two. And there are actually many, many ways across the world to do these things. So it's not my business to tell people they're doing stuff wrong if their mom taught them how to do it. And. And also.
- [14:49]
There is just like a different. There's just a different way that you cook for work and you cook for home, like. And in a lot of ways, that's a journey I'm still sort of unpacking and discovering as I move further and further away from restaurants and become more of a home cook for myself.
- [15:07]
B
Do you feel like the two kind of different kinds of cook, like, if. If you could, could you be totally freeform, creative version cook, farmer's market version? And then is there a world where you could be totally regimented version? Or do you feel like the two feed each other and, like, you need some of that intensity to be able to come back and, like, get loosey goosey?
- [15:31]
A
Yeah, I think the intensity, I just, like. Let me return to the music metaphor. Like, the great jazz musicians, you know, they were trained.
- [15:40]
B
Yeah.
- [15:41]
A
In all of the foundations of music. Right. Like, it's not like they couldn't play the standards. Sure, they could play the standards better than anyone. They just wanted to evolve and they wanted to add their creativity into them. So, of course, like, understanding and being really good at, like, the technical stuff only makes you a better improviser. And honestly, you kind of need to understand how things work together in order to be able to improvise well or to flow freely. But I also, to me, if I was just throwing flowing freely all the time, then I'd end up. My fridge would be filled with experiments, right. Like, some of which were good and some of which were not. And there wouldn't be that, like, pleasure of returning to. I don't know, like, right now it's getting colder. I want to make all the, like, tomato, saucy, baked pasta things. Yeah. I want to make, like, you know, chicken soup. I want to make the things that I make at this time of year that I return to that are great. So if I was improvising all the time, I'd never get to sort of, like, revisit nostalgia. I'd never get to, you know, or learn from somebody, like, follow there. I always refer to this one Indonesian cookbook called Coconut and Sambal. But it was really, in a lot of ways, very transformative. For me, the recipes are great. It's a great cookbook. But also it's one of the few times in sort of the last several years anyway where I've really, like, loved a book enough to cook from the pa, like, really off the page, over and over, like, complete meals, which I don't typically do that. Yeah. And part of why I have done that is because I don't know anything about Indonesian cooking. And I certainly didn't when I opened the book. So I really needed to follow the recipes to get that taste. And then as I followed more and more of them, I started to see patterns. I was like, oh, many of these recipes start with shallot, ginger, lemongrass, Shallot, ginger, lemongrass. They kind of all do this. You know, you. You treat the lemon, you tie the lemongrass in a knot and you smash it. There's just these sort of, like, techniques that appear over and over and over again and over time I'm like, oh, I understand. These are foundational to Indonesian cooking. So. And now I guess if I wanted to go on and, you know, make an Indonesian inspired soup, I would sort of know where to start because I followed that over and over and over again.
- [17:58]
B
Yeah.
- [17:58]
A
But if I were only sort of doing my own, like, creativity, loosey goosey stuff, then I would never be doing any of this. So.
- [18:06]
B
Yeah.
- [18:07]
A
Yeah.
- [18:08]
B
Okay. So I jumped in and I just. Now is dawning on me 15 minutes in that I never asked you to tell people what the book is about. So could you do like 30 seconds or so? Just, we usually start there.
- [18:21]
A
That's the first thing we usually do.
- [18:22]
B
And I was like, let's go.
- [18:24]
A
I'm so excited. We just went. I. So my new book is called Good Things, and it's a book of the recipes that I cook at home for myself and for my friends. But sort of like underneath that, it's a book exploring for myself and. And maybe sort of for you, like, how cooking can be integral to living sort of meaningful and good life. And. Which was a question I have really been sort of turning over in my head for the last several years. And a big part of that is eating, like, with and for the people you love.
- [18:58]
B
Yeah.
- [18:59]
A
So cooking for them, I would say eating with them, Eating with, cooking for.
- [19:04]
B
I loved this good life thought exercise. I immediately started. So in the book, you talk about how you. You went through a lot of things. You were in a deep depression. And I think maybe with your therapist, you came up with this idea of, like, what does it mean to live a good life? Or maybe I took it to my therapist. I can't remember because I. I know that I took it to my therapist.
- [19:23]
A
That's awesome.
- [19:24]
B
Yeah. But I got it from a friend. You got it from a friend, and it was like, what does it mean to live a good life? And you started sort of thinking about that. And could you talk a little bit about why that was important to you? What that, like, how, you know, if you're living in service of this idea of a good life, do you revisit these ideas? How is it practical and in your life?
- [19:45]
A
I feel like it's my responsibility to sort of check in with that, like, as a barometer, sort of, just to make sure I'm not, like, veering off track and over. Even before I had this language, I always had sort of a way of over time, literally, like, gut check, just being, like, in my belly. Does this feel, you know, like, overall positive or overall negative? Is it something I should be moving toward or away from? But sometimes I didn't do that check until I was, like, knee deep in a project or something. So I'm trying to do it a little bit earlier so I don't cause myself and other people quite as much pain. But I do think, you know, because I had this sort of overwhelming, I mean, overwhelming experience of writing Salt, Fat, Acid Heat, making the show, putting them out in the world, having them being responded to in such, like, positive and just truly, there's not another word overwhelming ways. It did overwhelm my life, and it uprooted me from whatever I was grounded in. And I kind of got, like, tumbled, tossed and tumbled like a tumbleweed. And I went along with this ride that I was on that was really mostly very fun and good.
- [20:57]
B
Yeah.
- [20:57]
A
But it was just very disorienting and confusing. You know, for one thing, like, I put published Salt, Fat, Acid Heat when I was 37, and the show came out a year later. And that's like a. You know, by the. Luckily, by that point, like, in a lot of ways, I knew who I was. So I think it's not like becoming sort of well known changed me in that way, but I think what it did for me was when I, like, sort of landed back on planet Earth.
- [21:29]
I felt really used up and confused. I felt really unsure of what to do next because my whole life had been, in so many ways oriented toward, like, big achievement of some kind, whatever kind it would be. And here I was with, like, the biggest achievement I could have imagined, and it didn't result in anything. You know, there was no, like, now You've arrived. Here is the gold medal that you've always been seeking, and you can be happy and free now. In fact, like, I was in many ways more lost and more confused and more alone than I had ever been. And so that made no sense to me because I felt like I had just been doing a good job, like a good student, and, like, putting my head down and working and trying to be good. And if that didn't, like, yield this sense of fulfillment and happiness, than what would? And I think, because I didn't, well, I was like, well, clearly I've been doing this wrong this whole time. So I had to start asking myself, like, what's a good life? Because I thought a good life meant, like, work hard, you know, work hard to make the people around you happy and proud. And that didn't work. So I had to start looking for something else. And I. I did a lot of reading and a lot of sort of seeking in a variety of ways. But as I read and learned more, it seemed like that has been answered over time, often with, like, with things that religion offers people, but through, like, ritual and through community. And religion often offers this incredible scaffolding for both ritual and community in. In our lives. And I don't practice religion. I'm not particularly interested in practicing religion. And so I just started wondering, like, how could I create that for myself? And I may not practice religion, but I do think I have a sense of, like, what's sacred and, you know, like, what is awe inspiring. And I think that in a lot of ways has guided me. And I tried to sort of almost become like, a magnet for those things. And simultaneously I had to reflect on, like, I'd built this life around food and cooking. And I was losing my appetite. And I, you know, it was the pandemic. I was alone. I wasn't really eating with anyone else. Like, I didn't really want to cook. And here I was on the hook to write a cookbook that I didn't feel really interested in writing. Yeah. Or like I had anything to say. In some ways, I felt like I'd said everything I have to say about cooking in the first book. And so I. In order to even be able to think about cooking, making another book or cooking again, I had to sort of explore and understand the role that cooking could play in. In my own life or in a good life.
- [24:21]
B
And. And once you sort of started to come to that, I have to imagine that, like, actually coming back to write this book, there was a lot that would go on for you, as a person who found so much success with salt fat acid heat, knowing that there's expectations and there's, you know, not just from maybe within, but also from without. Your pub, your audience, your fans. There's also sort of this new, like, newer feeling that everyone is a cook online now. Everyone has a TikTok and an Instagram and a this and that. How did you actually, I guess, in a more literal sense, come back to writing the cookbook? Was there a process that you had to do to free yourself up? Were the early recipes, did they make it in the book? Did you have to kind of scrap it and start over? Or did or. Once you kind of tapped into that good life feeling and, like, figuring out what you were working toward and finding that sort of religious element to it, did it all kind of just fall into place for you?
- [25:20]
A
Absolutely not.
- [25:21]
B
Okay.
- [25:23]
A
No. I mean, I would say I'm so grateful to have a publisher who never puts pressure on me and never put pressure on me. So almost all of the pressure and standards and expectations came from myself. And I sort of did a. Like a bamboozled myself, because I was telling myself I wasn't doing that, but I absolutely. But I absolutely was. Part of it is I am friends with many writers. Like, I just. I came up in a writing community. I still have a really strong sort of. Most of my friends are writers, and so I know all sorts of different writers of all sorts of different things who have had varying levels of sort of commercial success, but some of the people have had a lot of commercial success, and I have watched some people really be destroyed creatively by that. And, you know, there's one person I know who wrote an incredibly successful first book that still sells gajillions of copies a year. Like, you know, and it's been, I think, 18 or 20 years since her book came out, and she's still working on number two. And it's been really painful to watch, let alone, I'm sure, for her, very painful to do.
- [26:34]
B
Yeah.
- [26:34]
A
And. And so there was sort of this way where I was like, don't do that. You know, I was like, just make something. Like, do not. Because I could very much see my, like, perfectionist, obsessive self never making another thing because it wasn't going to be another salt fat acid heat. But in some ways, I. I knew I was never going to be able to do that. Like, you can't just, like, recreate that, but I had to figure out what I was going to make. Yeah. And in some ways, yes, I think this, like, sort of other, let's say more spiritual thing that I was going through or just profound. More profound thing that I was going through absolutely informed the creative process only in that, like, not in my most sort of in my head, beating myself up on the page moments, but in between, I was able to sort of zoom out far enough to see the pressure and the, like, obsessiveness and the perfectionism. And everything that had created Salt Fat Acid Heat was not unrelated to.
- [27:41]
So much like, deep, early sort of childhood sadness and pain in a way that I had sort of learned, maybe instinctively, but also from forces outside of me very early in my life, that the way to make the people around me happy was to perform and to achieve really well. And so since I have been doing, trying to undo that in my own self, I was also trying to undo what I was expecting myself to deliver on the page. And so, like, the way I thought about it was I've only made one thing in life. I'd only made Salt Fat, Acid heat. And in so many ways, because I had worked on that for so long. I mean, I had the idea for it when I was 19 or 20, and the book came out when I was 37. So it was in my head and my whole sort of adult life was on an arc moving toward the. The making of that book.
- [28:33]
And so it was in. In some ways, even when it wasn't like, front and center in my mind, it was a focus of my life, my whole life. It was the. The thing I was making. And so now that I'd only made, like, a one at one thing, and it was the thing, like, I needed to make something else. And so this time I was like, make. Just make a thing. It doesn't need to be, like, the center of your life. The center. It can just be a document of a time and a place. It can be a piece of yourself that you're sharing. So that was a way that I sort of tried to think about. It was like, just make a thing and make it as nice as you can.
- [29:05]
B
Yeah, that's so interesting. It's also like, as a person who obviously reads a lot of books, but also likes pop culture in general, I think when there's, like, public figures or people that you come to through their work, their first thing defines them completely for you. Right? So it's like, I have all these expectations about who you are based on Salt Fat Acid Heat. But then when you have this second entry into the world, it's like, oh, there's another Plot point.
- [29:30]
A
Another. Yeah, another, like, facet.
- [29:31]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I feel like, kind of like what I'm hearing you say, and also kind of what I felt like the tension in this book is like, you were writing towards these other parts of yourself, and I have a much more complex understanding of who you are. Not just, like, as a person, but also. Also as a cook. Like, there's recipes in here that I was like, oh, like putting. Putting a can of condensed milk in a pressure cooker. Like, that's so not what I would think that Samin would tell me to do based on what I know of her.
- [30:03]
A
Right.
- [30:03]
B
So it's like, you sort of got to reinvent yourself, I think, in some interesting ways.
- [30:06]
A
Or just evolve. Yeah.
- [30:07]
B
Yes. Or like, yeah, not even reinvent, but just, like, show us a different side of yourself that was always there. And. And, I mean, I even took a note that was like, Samin's like, keeps telling me she's really intense, but she kind of seems chill, too.
- [30:19]
A
And I was like, I'm kind of both, like, yeah, like.
- [30:22]
B
And I love that for me, as a reader, and I. I was like, oh, I. Now I'm like, I can't wait to see what, like, book three turns out to be. Like, what other piece of you shows up and what other styles of cooking show up and what other styles you have or not cooking or what? Yeah, whatever it is. But, like, that there's. I am actually more intrigued and, like, drawn to you as a person, like, who makes things in the world because of the complexity that this book added to sort of the understanding that I had from you from the show and from. From the previous book, if. So, I think that's kind of cool.
- [30:56]
A
That's cool. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I do feel like I don't really engage with, like, anything that's written about me or, you know, I just can't. I can't, for my own sanity. But there was a podcast, like, and it's funny because I listened to this podcast separately. For me, the New Yorker critics like.
- [31:16]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:17]
A
And then one day, I, like, opened it, and in the description was me. And I was like, okay, I will not be listening to this episode. And then I was like, crap, they're talking about me. And so I asked my girlfriend to listen. She listened, and she was like, oh, yeah. Honestly, like, it was really interesting. Helen sort of had this point that was. That was really thoughtful about, like, with salt, fat, acid heat. In a lot of ways, you were trying to translate the restaurant cook, the Professional cooking, sort of how we think about it for people at home. And in a way, the idea was do this and like, elevate your own cooking to professional standards, which is not. That's a, that's not exactly the summary. It's more like, let me unlock for you, like what we do in kitchens. But also. Yes, like I was saying, I was trying to translate and sort of bring that stuff into the home kitchen. And in the years since, I have sort of gotten further and further away from restaurant kitchens. And so much of my own process at home as a cook is unlearning and untethering myself from those standards because they make sense. In a restaurant. In a restaurant, you're making something.
- [32:26]
B
Yeah.
- [32:27]
A
You want it to be at the highest level. You're. You're chopped, charging top dollar for it. People are coming in there expecting consistency. But also you have things available to you, like deliveries from farmers markets and farms and fisheries, like at your doorstep, you have a team of dishwashers to wash all your dishes. You have prep cooks and storage. There's all these resources that we have in restaurants that we don't have at home. So it doesn't make sense to hold ourselves to these same standards. And then also there's just like life.
- [32:57]
B
Yeah.
- [32:57]
A
You know, like, like food doesn't have to. Like food. I understand it being the center of one's life when that's their career and they're going to work, but in my life and in many of, I'm guessing, my readers lives, it is just a part of life. You have children, you have other things you have to do, you have people to take care of. You have just. There's all sorts of other priorities. And food is sort of integral to that, but not the, the only, the be all and end all of it. And so then as for me to then say, well, if you're going to make this recipe, you need to go to these three different, like international markets or whatever. Seems more and more insane, like just more and more unreasonable for the goal that I have for myself or for you. And I think that is my own evolution. You know, I think I didn't. Not that I. I don't think I've held people to some truly crazy standards. I think I've like undone a lot of the stuff even by the time I came to the first book. But I think I just keep undoing. And part of the undoing is like being a kinder to myself. And so in some ways on, like on the page with the book, with the message in the recipes. So much of what I'm trying to say to you is the same thing I'm trying to model for myself, which is like, like, it's okay to lower your standards because I think our standards have been artificially raised for, for a lot. Like, for reasons that are not healthy. And so it's okay to do less. It's okay, I don't know, to buy pre grated cheese. It's okay to just, like, if you can't make it to the fancy store to buy the fancy ingredient to use the thing from the corner store, it's okay to even just have dinner and invite people over and order pizza. Like, yeah, I think like the. There's just a different why for me now. And that's what I'm both trying to sort of convince myself of and to convince you of.
- [34:52]
B
That's very relatable.
- [34:53]
A
Yeah.
- [34:54]
B
Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and be right back.
- [34:58]
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- [36:46]
B
We're back. Okay, so I want to ask you this. I want you to give me permission for something. I know at the top we kind of alluded that we would talk about your relationship to recipes, but I know you've talked about that with a lot of other people and I have some other questions.
- [36:59]
A
Oh, we don't have to.
- [36:59]
B
I just want to make sure you're happy.
- [37:01]
A
I have. You do not have to ask me about that.
- [37:03]
B
Right. I mean, a great interview with Sam Sanders. Sam is a friend of this show. So go listen to the conversation on the Sam Sanders Show. If you want more, I'll summarize it.
- [37:11]
A
In like 20 seconds. I have a conflicted relationship to recipes. There we go. Thank you.
- [37:16]
B
And maybe it will come up, but I want to talk. People will be listening to this kind of going into the holiday, the end of the holiday season. We're approaching Christmas time, Hanukkah, whatever your end of year solstice, whatever. First and foremost, I want to talk about a piece of gossip I heard about you, which is that back in the day you used to host holidays and you would make a spreadsheet and you would assign out dishes, including the recipe.
- [37:44]
A
Okay. This has gone through a little bit, through a game of telephone.
- [37:48]
B
Okay.
- [37:48]
A
Because I've never really hosted holidays because I did not grow up like with any of the sort of American holidays. However. Okay. In the past year, in like the last several years when I have had Thanksgivings with friends, there have been spreadsheets and I actually don't super do. Okay, well, I think this came from my, I, I was just on stage saying something about this in, in like Chicago. I don't know if someone was there. Like Chicago.
- [38:15]
B
I heard it from, I got it from Chicago.
- [38:16]
A
And so I, I was more saying if you want to be a control freak about it, the very best way I see to do it is to have a spreadsheet and to like have, you know, you allow people to sign up, but you've already pre assigned the dish or Prius and or pre assigned the recipe for them to follow. And honestly, I think that's freeing for some people because they don't know what to do. So, like, you know, it's interesting, a thing that somebody had said to me in, in one of these many interviews that sort of blew my mind was you're so, you're belly aching over all these recipes because like you're trying to give people, you know, all of these options and ideas and variations. But like, sometimes people just want you to tell them what to do. That's like, I was like, what?
- [39:02]
B
That's how I feel about recipes.
- [39:03]
A
Just like, yeah, on Tuesday night, like, I don't want to like in reinvent the world. I just want to make dinner and get it on the table and get the kids fed.
- [39:09]
B
And I was, I want it to taste good when I'm done. I'm happy to spend the hour, but I want you to tell me what to do so that at the end of the hour I'm happy eating the food. That's totally.
- [39:17]
A
So I think like, I think that is, you know, I was, I was being sort of tongue in cheek about it because I was being silly of like, I think that night in particular I was referring a lot to my own inner control freak.
- [39:28]
B
Got it.
- [39:29]
A
And because there were a lot of questions in the audience about how to make the, how do you like, you know, get the best possible holiday meal in the, in all these different circumstances and people are really stressed about it. Yes. And I was like, well, if you don't want, you know, so and so to show up with her grandma Sally's whatever, jello, marshmallow, whatever thing that you don't want at your table, then you have to tell her what to do.
- [39:52]
B
Yes. I personally love this idea. I've never done it.
- [39:56]
A
Yeah.
- [39:57]
B
I host almost all the holidays with my sister in law. We're obsessive. We write on our yellow pad, we write a whole schedule. We put in when we're going to shower, we, if we're going to exercise.
- [40:07]
A
Who'S going to buy what, what stores?
- [40:09]
B
Exactly. I'm headed to Costco right after this.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah.
- [40:11]
B
And then what we do is we say, well, what are things we don't care about? And then we say, great. And then those appetizers.
- [40:17]
A
Exactly.
- [40:18]
B
So like that's how we do it. And we just say we're going to cook everything else. We have a whole planning meeting and then we say, great. This year I'm not, there's no dessert I'm dying to make this year. Let's assign that out.
- [40:29]
A
Yeah, I think that's great.
- [40:31]
B
I feel like if I was assigning out specific recipes, I could do even less and still get what I wanted back.
- [40:37]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [40:39]
B
I like it.
- [40:40]
A
Yeah. I, I, I've done this definitely for other like, gatherings. And I also think it's a helpful thing for any sort of Gathering. Like if you're having, I don't know, like a monthly book group or whatever it is that you do, you could, you could even do. You don't have to do it this insane. You could just have like, I don't know, however many rows available to as many people there are. And then, you know, make sure you have for salads, for, you know, mains, for desserts or whatever so that you don't end up with like 20 things of pre bagged lettuce from Costco or like 14 quiches from Whole Foods or something. Right, right, right, Totally.
- [41:21]
B
Do you have any sneaky good tips for hosting hosts or attendees?
- [41:27]
A
I mean, I think so much of it of like not stressing out. I think so. So, so much of it is just organizing your time and like working backward from whatever time it is that you want to set the table. I mean, sit down at the table. And then also from whatever time it is that people arrive. I think working in advance and getting stuff done in advance. I do think delegating is important, which is why. But you, like, I think you have the right sensibility. If you don't, if you do want to be really controlling about it, delegate the stuff you don't care about. Like let people bring vanilla ice cream. Let people bring, you know, a loaf of crusty bread. Let people tell them to do. You know, you can even be specific and say like, can you get a loaf of bread from this place?
- [42:08]
B
Yeah.
- [42:08]
A
Or can you make a cheese platter? And I really like this cheese on there to be. Be there. But people only want to make you happy. They only want to do a good job. So. Yeah, but I think you can absolutely delegate and that honestly. And like the Google Doc in a way has, like the Google spreadsheet has been a gift because, because it is in real time. There's a way where a lot of times I would have just made the whole spreadsheet, made the whole list for myself and just gone and done it. And because other people are in there, if I pre fill it with like, I need five heads of radicchio from this store, people are like, I can go do that for you.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah.
- [42:40]
A
So I, I think, I think there's a way where if people do want to help and they do want to make your dreams come true.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah, that's.
- [42:49]
A
You just have to let them.
- [42:50]
B
That's true. I feel like.
- [42:54]
I, I do feel like people want to do the right thing. So I, I delegate things I like also. Like, I make my mom get the flowers. I hate Doing flower arrangements. I'm just like, please someone else. Okay. Let me ask you about. Well, for people. So I had a very exciting experience reading this book. I'm actually from Oakland.
- [43:13]
A
Oh.
- [43:14]
B
I grew up in Oakland, and I was excited to, you know, hear you talk about some restaurants. I know all these things. And as I'm reading the book, I'm getting to this scene about fish tacos, and there's a child's birthday, and the child's name's Orion. And I said, my God, I know that child.
- [43:31]
A
You do?
- [43:32]
B
I said, is that Alexis Madrigal child?
- [43:34]
A
Yeah.
- [43:35]
B
So I immediately take a screenshot and I send it to Alexis and I say, alexis, is this your Orion? And Alexis is like, of course it is. And I said, this is incredible. I'm going to be talking to Samin next week. And Alexis said, well, you know, Monday dinner is at our house. I said, I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet. And then I was like, well, I'm coming now. But I know Alexis because Alexis did this podcast this year for the Pacific Circuit. Pacific Circuit. And I always try to have at least one Oakland person on the show when I can. Some years I get lucky, and I can have three or four some years. It's just one. So I guess this year I got at least two because you're an Oakland Oaklander now. But it was so exciting to me to have this connection that feels so outside of books in a lot of ways. But will you tell us about these Monday dinners?
- [44:28]
A
Sure, yeah. So, I mean, actually, Sarah and Alexis, this couple who we have these. I. I'm friends with. They're part of this larger sort of writing community that I was referring to.
- [44:43]
And I've been friends with them through sort of writing. And just like, yeah, we have many, many mutual friends. We've known each other for probably at least 15 years now, I think. And I wouldn't say we were the closest of friends, but we're like. We're friends. Colleagues. Yeah. Collegial. And, like, would see bump into each other and stuff. I'd been to their house. They'd been my house, but we were. They were not, like, in my, like, favorites list on my phone or something. And they. One day after, sort of in the months after vaccines, after the pandemic, Sarah texted to say, like, can I come over? The kids want to come see you and Fava. We're nearby at the farmer's market. I said, sure. I'm just here ruining this pork. Like, whatever. I'm just knocking my Head against the wall. So they came over and Sarah's like, what's the deal with the pork? And I was like, oh, I'm just trying to perfect this recipe and I already know it's not going to work. And I'm just actually at the, like, I was just about to put it in the oven, which meant it still had four hours to cook and then it would come out. And I live by myself. So, like the dinners, like, you know, every time you're developing a recipe and it's a failure, you know, you don't really want to waste the food, right? So it means you have to eat it. And I live by myself, which meant I would have to eat like 27 portions or whatever of this, of this braised pork every time. My own failure. Yeah, like, you're just like, oh, God. And so I, I sort of just was like, ah. And she was like, well, we'll help you eat it. And it just kind of felt like a lifeline being thrown to me because I was not in the, you know, because I was still sort of in pandemic mindset. It was not really did not occur to me to, like, go to someone's house and have a meal with them, right. And so I was like, really? And she said, yeah, what about Tuesday? And I was like, okay. So I came over on Tuesday and I brought the pork and it was perfectly good pork. It just wasn't the thing that I was trying to make, right? So we had a totally nice dinner of like tacos. And it was just. They have two kids and they sort of live in community with another friend and her kid, and they call themselves like an anti nuclear family. And so it was just like kids running around. We were eating tacos. It was just very comforting and normal and the. And the opposite of sort of the loneliness that had been very sort of central to my life for several years at that point. And.
- [47:08]
I was like, oh, can we do this again? They're like, yeah, you want to come back next Tuesday? I was like, okay. So we just kept doing it and it just sort of kept happening. For the first several weeks it was tacos, and then we started making other things and we were, you know, they're good cooks and everyone, you know, and I was working on things for the book, so we would just text and cobble it together, and it was always pretty good. And we were probably doing it for close to eight months before I realized that this was a manifestation of this thing that I had wanted to do, which was to create a Weekly dinner for myself at home. But in my mind's eye, I had been the host of it. I was going to cook and make everything. People would come over. It would be this sort of grand, mini grand thing that would happen once a week at my house. And I had always sort of thought about creating it and then stopped myself because, well, if I do it on Sunday, which seems like the natural night to do it, like nobody who has kids is going to get in their car and like drive across a bridge or come here on a Sunday when there's a school night. The next, it's just like too chaotic. But almost all my friends have kids and if people don't cut, like, I knew that having it be consistent and people showing up would be really, really important and I just kind of could never get it off the ground.
- [48:23]
B
Yeah.
- [48:23]
A
Even just out of my own head.
- [48:26]
B
Yeah.
- [48:26]
A
And so in this way, this other thing had appeared that was, was not. It didn't look like what I had imagined. It wasn't at my house. I didn't do everything by myself. It wasn't necessarily the group of people that I thought would be the core group of people that I would do it with, but it happened. Like I did this thing and it shifted something really fundamental for me in my, in just in my weeks in my life. But in my weeks, like it gave me something to look forward to. I live by myself. And. And I also love cooking as an expression of like, love. And also there are just things selfishly that I really love making once in a while, but I don't have occasion to do it when it's just for me. Right. And so when now I kind of had a built in reason to like buy the side of salmon or to make the whatever. And it became this kind of, I, that slowly I realized became the sort of language for what it was that I was trying to communicate in this book. And so the Monday dinner really is at the heart of the book in a way.
- [49:30]
Yeah. In a way. That's the, the primary way that I share food with other people. And yeah, it's, it's really, it's really wonderful.
- [49:38]
B
I love it so much. So it turns out that that pork was actually maybe the most successful recipe of your recipe.
- [49:42]
A
I've never thought of it that way, but you're right.
- [49:45]
B
Okay. This is sort of a lightning round. I want to know what's the one recipe in this book that you hear the most back from people about?
- [49:53]
A
Oh.
- [49:55]
I don't know that it's been out enough for me. To hear, like out long enough for me to get into that type of, like, feedback. But there is a yellow cake that, like, people are really loving that I hope they would.
- [50:07]
B
Yeah, I can't wait to get that. What about what's. Is there anything that you've been hearing back about the book that's been surprising to you?
- [50:14]
A
The most surprising thing was this real, like, the, like, I, I will say this is not lightning answer, but a gift of like putting out a book is that for so long it's been only in your own head and you've only been having the conversations about what it is and what it means with yourself and, like, what, how it will land with people. And then it goes out into the world and it lands with them sometimes in the ways you think and in other ways, like, leads to conversations and thoughts I never would have had. And so one of them is this idea that, like, everybody doesn't want every possibility. And I thought, I thought I was like, trying to give you the gift of, you know, freedom. And sometimes people don't want freedom. They want constraint. And so that was sort of like a, like a revelation. And so.
- [50:57]
B
Yeah, what about. What's the one recipe in here that you think everybody should try to cook?
- [51:02]
A
Oh. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. God. The lemon. Creamy lemon miso dressing. It's like my favorite of the dressings and it's sort of revelatory. And it's everybody I know who's tasted it, it's been like, life changing to them. People are like, my, I put it on everything now. My kids eat salad every day now. Like, and that's how I felt about it. I felt like a kid who wanted to eat salad every day.
- [51:24]
B
Okay, I need this, cuz I hate vegetables. So I'm excited. What about. Do you have a sneaky favorite of for yourself?
- [51:31]
A
The sort of sneaky thing is that there's this preserved Meyer lemon paste that I worked on in the book and I, I. But what's interesting is, like, the book is really an accurate reflection of like, what's in my fridge and what I actually cook and eat. And so I have continued sort of using this ingredient into various ways since I turned the book in. And there are so many things that I, like, have continued to do and make. And I'm like, dang it. Like, if only I hadn't turned it in, I could have told them, like, I made frozen yogurt with just like, agave syrup and yogurt and preserve my lemon paste. And it was so Good. Or like, I made a fizzy soda and it was so good. Or I made. You could actually use the preserve Meyer lemon paste in the lemon miso dressing if you don't have lemons. And it'll make a really thick, delicious, creamy yellow dressing. So there are all these things where, like, it just continues. Yeah.
- [52:21]
B
It's my stinky favorite. I made the French onion. Oh, the. The dip so good. I took it to Friendsgiving and people were like, ah. And I was like, oh, just this cookbook I'm reading.
- [52:34]
Is there anything that didn't make it in the book that you wish could have or would have?
- [52:40]
A
There were a lot of things that we cut for a variety of reasons. So sometimes it's. The reason is as boring as that food doesn't look good. Like, just picture wise, like, photo wise or picture wise. Sometimes there's only so many ways that you can take a photo of chicken.
- [52:59]
B
Yeah.
- [52:59]
A
You know.
- [53:00]
B
Yeah.
- [53:01]
A
And so I'm pretty sure. Did I. Yeah. There was, like, for a long time, I would say, since that sort of like coming home time, I really sort of got into making rice porridge, like, congee. And I have a super simple congee, and I really wanted. That was in here. And at some point I had to cut it for space. So that was one I was really sad about. And I have found other ways, like, to include these things.
- [53:26]
B
But. Yeah, okay. I always ask people this about how they write. How do you write? Where are you. How often music or no snacks and beverages set the scene?
- [53:40]
A
It's really not glamorous, but. Okay.
- [53:43]
B
No one is glamorous. Everybody does that precursor. They're like, well, I don't. What I do is weird.
- [53:48]
A
It's. I mean, I have an. Actually an office in a building that I share with many, many writers. I don't go there as often as I used to. I usually just right now at this desk here in my house. And it's usually like a panicked. I've waited too long and the thing is due soon if I don't start, you know, and I have to sort of silence everything. I put on Freedom, you know that app, Freedom, that like, turns everything off on your whole computer and phone. And so that's different than the re. The recipe work happens in the kitchen. And I am, like, meticulous with just documenting everything. So I take photos, but I take just. I have a legal pad, so I'm constantly, like, writing down what time I started a step, what time I finish a step. I weigh everything.
- [54:34]
B
Are you alone when you're doing this.
- [54:36]
A
Yeah. And I actually, that requires a lot of focus because if I forget to write down one measurement or one time, then then I have to do the whole thing over again. So I can't have people around, I can't be talking. I sometimes will have music playing in the background when I'm doing that stuff. But. And then the other thing I've learned is that that stuff. I wish I had one of the pads right here to show you. But like, I truly just use yellow legal pads and I can't be precious about them. I have to just because there's like food and stuff being dripped everywhere. And so they're so messy and sometimes the notes are so insane and in such crazy shorthand that if I don't come upstairs and type them immediately, then I find later when I'm trying to decipher it, I have no idea what I was doing. So that I've learned sort of by trial and error, I have to transcribe pretty immediately onto the computer what it is that I did. And then I print that out and I go back and I cook from that. So I do that multiple times. And then that goes to another person somewhere else to test, you know, as sort of like a impartial person to see what she gets. And. But all of that, like, as much as it takes so much labor and time and cost and grocery shopping, I find that to be less stressful and anxiety making than even like when people are like, could you just write one paragraph to introduce this thing? And I'm like, what am I gonna say? How do I.
- [55:55]
B
Yes.
- [55:55]
A
You know, so that often is the much harder stuff is anything narrative is just much trickier for me than anything instructional. And that usually I have to go really deep sort of into my own memory or my sensory memory and try to find like a little trigger. Something that is the thing that I am drawn to in this food or in this, I don't know, whatever it is I'm trying to talk to you about. And it's not even that that trigger becomes the thing that I end up writing about, but it has to be where I start from. And then, and then it's really messy. There's. There's like untold number of untitled document Google Docs saved in my Google Drive.
- [56:38]
But most of that. Yeah, I mostly just work like that. And then sometimes I need to change it up. So I go to like some place that has no Internet and I write by hand longhand.
- [56:47]
B
But when you're doing the more narrative writing, not the Recipe stuff. Do you have snacks and beverages with you?
- [56:53]
A
I more use snacks and beverages as like treat like getting up and going to make tea. I would say I drink like ungodly amounts of tea when I'm writing because there's something about like going to boil the water and brew the tea. Is the like, is the like. Yeah. The break.
- [57:10]
B
Yeah.
- [57:11]
A
But yeah, I don't have any like standardized snacks. Okay. Yeah, I wish I did.
- [57:16]
B
People are gonna be disappointed because I.
- [57:18]
A
Know, I mean it's not, it's not that I don't snack. I just don't have like. Part of it is I have no self control. So I don't let myself keep snacks in the house.
- [57:29]
B
Okay.
- [57:29]
A
Because if I just buy snacks, I'll eat the whole bag and that'll be my breakfast and lunch and dinner one day and then it'll all be gone.
- [57:35]
B
This is relatable.
- [57:36]
A
Yeah. So I, I have, it's like I'm an ingredients house, not a, not a snacks house by design to keep myself from like eating 40 million cheez its or whatever.
- [57:47]
B
I get it. I get it.
- [57:48]
A
Yeah.
- [57:48]
B
Okay. If people read good things, they love it. What are some other books you might recommend that are sort of in conversation with what you've done here?
- [57:58]
A
I mean, non food wise? I would say two books that were really sort of of just foundational for me. One is called the Sabbath. It's by Abraham Joshua Heschel, who was a rabbi philosopher, he was a contemporary of Martin Luther King. So he was really like a radical guy. And it's just a little book about sort of the value of keeping in Judaism, specifically the Sabbath. But like for me, I sort of interpret that into our Monday dinner and what it is that that like brings to your life and how to do it. And then another book that was really important to me and I think maybe only shows up sort of in a really distilled way is I read, I loved Awe by Dacher Keltner. He's a social scientist at UC Berkeley. He runs something called the center for the Greater Good. He's basically like a happiness scientist. And he. This is like a really personal sort of look at this concept of awe which scientists have sort of figured out that if you can figure out how to experience awe, even just like on a small scale, a little bit on a regular basis, even daily, you will just be a happier person. And awe is this thing, you know, it's this feeling of like being connected to something bigger basically. And so he has this sort of handful of like guaranteed ways that are proven to experience awe. And that felt in a lot of ways. Like what I was looking for in so much of was when I was looking for meaning, when I was looking for a sense of belonging in a way. Like, the things that make me feel like I'm okay are when I have that. And for me, it's often through nature and in very small ways. It's sometimes, sometimes it's like taking a hike and being at the top of a mountain, feeling my relative smallness. But often it's like, oh my God, look at this, like, incredibly beautiful leaf that this plant grew, you know, and how crazy that nature can make this shape. And it happens a lot when I'm cooking too, where I'm like, I just see the patterns in a, like starting to develop as I slice something and as they piling up on the counter or whatever. And it's just so, so, so, so beautiful for a moment. And you realize like, this is something I made or this is something I'm part of.
- [60:10]
B
Yeah.
- [60:11]
A
And that feels really sort of amazing. So those books are the sort of, I think.
- [60:16]
Non food books. And then let me see, like, in terms of food books, Nigel. Anything written by Nigel Slater is very sort of.
- [60:25]
Important to me. And, and he's like a huge inspiration to me, sort of on the page. He writes so simply and so beautifully, but also literally, like I told my publisher, I was like, I want the paper Nigel Slater has in his books. And they got me the same paper. Like, I was like, I want the Nigel Slater paper.
- [60:42]
And then I have a little list at the back.
- [60:43]
B
So yeah, there's a bunch of books. I mean, that's one of the things I noticed as I was reading the book is how many authors and, and like creative people that you're in conversation with throughout the book. I mean, I think there's like Rebecca Solnet, there's Robin Wall Ross Gay, Audre Lorde.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah.
- [61:02]
B
Like, I was just like, okay, Samin.
- [61:04]
A
Go off like, it's really funny too, because my editor was like, like this was like after we cut out a lot of quotes, he's like, you gotta stop quoting people. And I was like, but people need to know I'm smart.
- [61:14]
B
Yeah, you're smart, but you're a writer. Like, I, I, after like the second or third person, I was like, oh, Samin's like, she's like a writer. Like, she's interested in the craft of writing and like the thinking about the words and I don't know, I, I guess I could have maybe figured that out on my own. But it was really instructive when as I was reading the book, I was like, like, okay, go. There's, like, so many of them.
- [61:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, I also think that's the nice thing about cooking, too, is like. Or just trying to look at cooking as a. As it fits into a larger life is then it allows connecting to these other people and their ideas, even if they weren't cooks, and even, like. Because it's just about life. And so.
- [61:55]
B
But many writers are, like. Toni Morrison famously was, like, could throw down in the kitchen.
- [62:01]
A
Oh, really?
- [62:02]
B
Yeah.
- [62:02]
A
I gotta read about.
- [62:03]
B
Well, she has a. She was the editor on a cook cookbook, a Creole cookbook. And she was, like, giving notes, like, on the book. And I think there's a story when she was like, maybe it was Tony, Katie Bambara, somebody. She was editing where she had. Or maybe it's Angela Davis. She had her over at her house and would, like, make her food as she was working out. Like, there's these stories of Toni Morrison cooking. Yeah.
- [62:27]
A
Creole Feast.
- [62:29]
B
Yes. Yes. It was like, a bunch of different Creole chefs, and she. And she, like, helped them to.
- [62:35]
A
To.
- [62:36]
B
To, I guess, something you probably relate to. Make recipes, because they would be like, a dash of this, and she'd be like, tablespoons, babe. Like, we need a teaspoon measurement.
- [62:44]
A
So. Yeah. Wow, this is so cool. Edited by Toni Morrison. Yeah, this is so cool. Yeah, I gotta get that.
- [62:54]
B
Okay, last question, and then we're out of here. We went over time. I'm sorry, but if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [63:01]
A
My sister, who died when I was a. We were both babies. I was. I was one and a half, and she was three. And I think that loss has been sort of formative. Yeah. In my life, in my personality and all these things. And so I think a big part of what I've been going through in the last 10 years is unpacking that loss and, like, developing a relationship with her. 40 years belated. And so she's a character in my life now. And so I think in a lot of ways, like, I would really like to talk to her.
- [63:33]
B
Yeah. It's so beautiful. All right, everybody, you can get Samin's book. Good Things. It's really. It's. It is a good thing. It is a good thing. I needed it at this time in my year. I love it. I'm so excited to cook more from it. I am just so grateful you could do this with us. Thank you. So much for being here.
- [63:51]
A
Oh thank you so much for having.
- [63:52]
B
Me and everyone else. We will see you in the Stacks.
- [64:00]
Thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Samin for joining the show. I'd also like to say a big thank you to Emily Aseif and Marnie Folkman for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team and a Dream by H.G. bissinger. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 31st with Joel Anderson. If you love the Stacks and want insights access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks pod, on Instagram threads, Tik Tok, and now YouTube and you can check out our website at the stacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite, and our theme music is from Tagirigans. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.