Ep. 403 Being Heartbroken Is Annoying with Alejandro Varela

Summary

The Stacks Podcast – Ep. 403: "Being Heartbroken Is Annoying" with Alejandro Varela

Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Alejandro Varela (National Book Award finalist, author of Middle Spoon)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas is joined by Alejandro Varela to discuss his latest novel Middle Spoon. The conversation delves into heartbreak, the complexities of polyamorous relationships, the public health perspective Varela brings to his fiction, and the experience of feeling seen (and sometimes not liked) as both a writer and a person processing pain. Varela explores how his own desire for validation and need to be liked intersects with his work and the identities he brings to the page—brown, queer, the child of immigrants. Their exchange moves naturally through themes like mental health (especially OCD and anxiety), the writing process, public health, pop culture, and the universal aspects of grief.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Middle Spoon and Its Unlikely Appeal

[02:25–04:16]

• Traci admits she was surprised by how much she loved Middle Spoon despite not thinking it would be her type of book:
  • “If you told me about the book, I would probably be like, that’s not for me, but I really liked it.” (Traci, 02:27)
• Varela outlines the plot:
  • The protagonist is a married, polyamorous middle-aged man with children whose boyfriend abruptly leaves him, leading to a spiraling process of heartbreak and grief.
  • The story unfolds via unsent emails to the boyfriend and others (including his mom, kids, the editor of The New York Times, and even the Department of Sanitation), blending humor and pathos.
  • The narrator seeks empathy and contends with public perception—how much sympathy are you allowed if your life appears “perfect”?

2. Writing from Pain: Heartbreak as Universal

[04:16–07:00]

• Varela began writing the novel after his own experience of heartbreak and was struck by how common the feeling is—everyone he asked, even strangers, immediately related and remembered their own heartbreak.
  • “...if everyone is going through this or if everyone has this at the surface and they haven’t processed [it]...you can take bereavement leave if a parent dies...but what do you say to your boss if you get dumped?” (Alejandro, 06:08)

3. The Value—and Nuisance—of Heartbreak

[07:00–08:52]

• Varela intentionally created a narrator who was not always likable, reflecting the annoying, self-absorbed aspects of heartbreak.
  • “Being heartbroken is annoying. Like, going through it is really taxing—not just on yourself but on the people around you.” (Alejandro, 07:17)
• Traci and Alejandro discuss the appeal of “sad-boy” characters and the fine line between self-pity and authenticity.

4. Researching Grief: Conversations at Parties

[09:33–11:44]

• To prepare, Varela had dozens of conversations—usually after opening up about his own situation—asking everyone, “Have you ever had your heart broken? How long does it last?”
  • He noticed themes of lingering pain and the range of recovery timelines.
  • “My therapist told me, you can get over anything in a year.” (Traci, 11:44)

5. Therapy, OCD & Validation

[11:56–15:13]

• The two-therapist motif in the novel draws from a period in Varela’s life of overlapping therapy.
• He explores how OCD shapes the narrator’s compulsion for reassurance and control, which is both comic and moving on the page.
• Varela draws direct parallels to his own socialization as a queer, brown, immigrant kid—constantly seeking validation and reassurance.
  • “Being queer and closeted...made it so that I felt very much on the outskirts... so I tried extra hard... wanting validation.” (Alejandro, 14:20)
• Traci affirms: “You are a great writer. Stick with it.”

6. Blending Reality and Fiction: Auto-fiction & Vulnerability

[17:25–20:09]

• Varela discusses putting more of himself onto the page in Middle Spoon compared to his first two books, and how this alters the reception from readers.
• He acknowledges the universality of grief and heartbreak, countering anxieties about the premise feeling “too niche.”
  • “There’s nothing more universal than grief.” (Alejandro, 20:09)

7. Making the Universal Specific—And Vice Versa

[20:09–23:19]

• Traci admits to seeing her own experiences in the book, highlighting its cross-demographic relatability.
  • “I was thinking...about men and I was like, this is why we’re having the male loneliness epidemic... and I was like, literally this is a book about queer people, and you’re trying to make it about straight men…” (Traci, 20:20)
• Varela notes some booksellers also didn’t expect to relate, but ended up hooked.

8. Polyamory, Queerness & Mainstream Palatability

[21:30–22:13]

• Varela talks about the pressure to write more “mainstream” stories (e.g., straight, white heartbreak), but remains committed to writing about “new experiences”—for both himself and the reader, foregrounding pain as a common ground.

9. Humor & Freshness in Heartbreak Narratives

[23:19–26:48]

• Both agree the book’s humor makes it stand out—the narrator’s “dumb,” embarrassing moments feel real and relatable.
  • “He’s not annoying, he’s just like, dumb. Do you know what I mean? Like, he just says dumb [things] and I’m like, stop. You’re so embarrassing, but it’s like endearing and it’s enjoyable to be with him.” (Traci, 23:51)
• Varela explains pop culture tangents serve a larger purpose—commenting on equity and value, even in “small” topics like the Oscars.

10. OCD, Anxiety & Mental Health Representation

[32:05–37:12]

• Varela learned a great deal about OCD while writing the book and wanted to depict its “cycle” (obsession → anxiety → compulsion → relief → obsession) accurately.
• Emphasizes that mental illness is painful in life but can be funny on the page; also, not to misrepresent or minimize these experiences.
• After publication, Varela received many DMs from readers about mental health, polyamory, and heartbreak—affirming the novel’s resonance.

“If it’s the 10th most common [illness] in the world, then a lot of us are walking around with this.” (Alejandro, 37:12)

11. Reader Responses & The Responsibility of Representation

[37:50–40:01]

• Varela’s DMs let him know his work matters, and also challenge him to represent marginalized communities and mental illness accurately.
  • “They personally, are validating. They make me think that I’ve chosen a path, a career, a job where I’m doing more good than harm and that’s all I ever want.” (Alejandro, 39:23)

12. Public Health as Literary Purpose

[40:08–43:47]

• Varela shares how his public health background—community engagement, equity, structural causes—shapes his approach to fiction.
• He considers himself still a public health worker, but believes fiction is a more potent medium to reach people than academic papers.

13. Hierarchies, Health, and Stress

[43:52–46:50]

• Explains the “hierarchy of health”—how social and economic status, difference, and discrimination increase stress and negatively impact health outcomes (cortisol, life expectancy).
  • “...the measure for stress increases cortisol...very useful [if] you’re about to give a speech...but when those levels stay elevated every single day...life expectancy decreases.” (Alejandro, 45:15)

14. Crafting Fiction Without Moralizing

[47:09–51:42]

• Traci asks how he avoids making his novels preachy despite having an agenda as a public health advocate.
  • Varela says his first drafts are always too preachy, and he’s learned to undercut with humor and “pleasure from the work.”
  • He wants his prose to be enjoyable for all, even if messages slip through.

“I consider myself a public health worker and my medium is fiction.” (Alejandro, 43:47)

15. Editing & Trust with Publishing Team

[52:04–54:52]

• Varela emphasizes his compulsive self-editing (wrote the first draft in five weeks, spent a year and a half editing).
• Discussion of the danger that editors become too deferential to established authors; Varela hopes never to lose honest feedback from his team.

16. Writing Process: Ritual, Place, and Snacks

[55:26–59:35]

• Prefers writing on the Long Island Railroad or Amtrak, not planes (“too nervous”).
• White noise or looping familiar music works best (“If it’s new, I’m too interested in it”).
• Not a big snacker—mostly water, sometimes a martini on retreat.
• Diagnosed with gluten and dairy sensitivity after age 40, which he weaves into his characters.

17. Book Recs & Literary Influences

[60:09–61:19]

• For fans of Middle Spoon, Varela suggests:
  • Natalia Ginzburg (“her voice is fabulous”)
  • Thomas Bernhard (Wittgenstein’s Nephew, Loser, Extinction) and W.G. Sebald (exhausting but instructive narrators)
• No immediate contemporary comparison, but loves a “backlist moment.”

18. “Dream Reader”

[61:19–62:33]

• Would love Terry Gross to read the book (“Hey, Terry Gross, give me some love”).
• If including the deceased: friend Jean, “my biggest champion.”

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Notable Quotes

• On universal heartbreak:
  “What do you say to your boss if you get dumped? And it’s like your lover, not your partner, you know?” (Alejandro, 06:08)

• On unlikeable narrators:
  “Being heartbroken is annoying...If I’m gonna write this authentically, this person isn’t going to be likable all the time.” (Alejandro, 07:17)

• On needing validation:
  “I do have that in common with the narrator…I was raised…[as] the only Latin family…being queer and closeted…all of those things, I think made it so that I felt very much on the outskirts…wanting to be popular and wanting validation.” (Alejandro, 14:20)

• On OCD and anxiety:
  “OCD…is like this animal on your back…telling you you don’t have all the information, and you need all the information.” (Alejandro, 34:37)

• On public health and fiction:
  “Telling people to wear a condom is so much easier than telling them to collapse a hierarchy.” (Alejandro, 43:28)
  “I consider myself a public health worker and my medium is fiction.” (Alejandro, 43:47)

• On reader feedback:
  “They [DMs] make me think that I’ve chosen a path, a career where I’m doing more good than harm and that’s all I ever want.” (Alejandro, 39:23)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:25] – Varela introduces the plot of Middle Spoon
• [04:26] – Genesis of the book and Varela’s own heartbreak
• [07:00] – Discussing the “unlikeable” but authentic narrator
• [11:56] – Therapists, OCD, and anxiety in the novel—and in life
• [17:25] – Auto-fiction, self-insertion, and authorial vulnerability
• [20:09] – Universality and specificity of heartbreak
• [23:51] – Humor, embarrassment, and the "freshness" of the novel’s approach
• [32:05] – OCD and mental health: definitions and depictions
• [37:50] – Reader DMs and the ethics of representing marginalized identities
• [40:08] – Public health lens in Alejandro’s life and fiction
• [43:52] – Hierarchies, cortisol, and inequity in health outcomes
• [47:09] – Avoiding preachiness while maintaining a mission
• [55:26] – Varela’s writing rituals, music, snacking, and train inspiration
• [60:09] – Book recommendations for fans of Middle Spoon
• [61:19] – “Dream reader” answer (“Hey, Terry Gross”)

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is insightful, open, and often humorous, marked by camaraderie and moments of confession (“I’ll just throw the diaper at the child”).
• Both Traci and Alejandro consistently balance seriousness with levity—poking fun at themselves and each other while remaining thoughtful about pain, difference, and community.
• The episode feels accessible and deeply empathetic, much like Varela’s fiction.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode will appeal to anyone interested in the intersection of fiction and lived experience, especially around heartbreak and queerness, as well as those curious about how social justice and public health concerns can be woven into literary fiction without feeling didactic or heavy-handed. Listeners who appreciate author process, mental health discussions, or simply love “sad but funny books” will find a great deal here—along with behind-the-page insight into what makes Alejandro Varela such a unique contemporary novelist.

Transcript

[A]

The DMs started, you know, started with the first book, and they were always really heartfelt. I feel like you wrote about my life as a queer kid, as a brown kid, as a suburban kid, so on and so forth. And I didn't. I don't sit down and think, oh, I. I have to write for people who might connect with me. I think I'm writing about some pretty universal stuff that hasn't gotten a lot of attention, maybe, or deserves more attention. And so the DMs, in that way, they're really heartening. They personally, they are validating. They make me think that I've chosen a path, a career where I'm doing more good than harm and that's all I ever want. But yeah, it's quite heartening, and it makes me want to keep writing.

[B]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracey Thomas, and today we are joined by National Book Award finalist Alejandro Varela to discuss his newest book, Middle Spoon. Humorously exploring unconventional relationships and complexities of polyamory, this novel follows Alejandro's unnamed narrator, a married man with two kids, as he struggles to navigate heartbreak and judgment after his boyfriend abruptly dumps him. Today, Alejandro and I discuss why he wanted to write this heartbreak novel, how he sees himself as a public policy advocate whose medium is fiction, and how his desire to be liked has transformed him into a prolific authority author. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team and a Dream by H.G. bizinger. We will discuss that book on Wednesday, December 31st with Joel Anderson. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast and you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each place offers different perks, like community conversations, virtual book clubs, writing hot takes, and bonus episodes. And your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week. So head to patreon.com thestacks to join the Stacks Pack community and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com All right, now it's time for my conversation with Alejandro Varela. All right, everybody.

[C]

I'm so excited.

[B]

I am joined today by Alejandro Varela. His latest book is called Middle Spoon.

[C]

Guys, I sort of loved it.

[B]

I didn't think I was going to. It's like, if you told me about the book, I would probably be like, that's not for me, but I really liked it.

[C]

So, Alejandra, welcome to the Sacks.

[A]

Thanks, Tracy. It's really nice to be here.

[C]

That's sort of like a mean introduction, but I mean it as a compliment.

[B]

Because I feel like I'm such a like weirdo when it comes to fiction.

[A]

But.

[B]

But you sort of sold me on the book at the Texas Book Festival when I got to see you. And Tiana Clark, friend of the show, on a panel. So can you tell folks in a.

[C]

Similar way that you did it at the festival what this book is about?

[A]

So middle aged man has his heart broken for the first time and he is going through it. He's in a lot of pain. He's essentially reverted to being a 17 year old, but with the perspective of a middle aged person. So now he's trying to intellectualize the pain away. And on the advice of his therapists, he has two and those therapists do not know about each other. He decides to write down what he's feeling. And in a sort of modern day journal way, he writes emails to the guy who broke his heart, Ben. And he never sends any of those emails. And those emails are mostly to Ben, but they're also to a slew of other folks. His mom, his kids, these Academy of.

[C]

Motion, editor of the New York Times.

[A]

The editor of the New York Times, the Department of Sanitation. And this is how he sort of processes life and again deals with the anxiety and plot twist or I guess not because it happens at the beginning. We find out the narrator is happily married with children. And so this was a polyamorous situation that kind of complicates the grief in a way, because can he get empathy if he has such a perfect life? How is he going to get through this?

[B]

Okay, I think the question on my mind and everyone's mind is how did you come to this story?

[C]

Where did you get the idea for this book? When did you get the idea for this book?

[A]

I, in December of 2022, was going through, I had already written my first two books. The first one was published the Town of Babylon and the second one was coming out in a few months and I was contracted to write two other books and I started writing. The first one got 30,000 words in. I was super excited. And then I went through a rough time in my life, experienced a bit of heartbreak and so I sat down and was like, this is wild. I, I don't know what to do with this, with this sadness. And so I thought, let me write about this because this is really unique and since I hadn't experienced it before, not in that way, I've since thought about it. And I do believe when I was much younger, I had some heartbreak moments, but not like that. And so I started interviewing people. Everyone, everyone. Everyone in my life. Perfect strangers at parties. And I would ask everyone, have you ever had your heart broken? And I know I sound naive, but I wasn't expecting absolutely everyone to say yes. I wasn't expecting everyone to say, I feel like it was just yesterday. I wasn't expecting everyone to say, oh, my God, I think I could cry right now thinking about it. And that really moved me. And I was thinking about how there are 8 billion people on this earth, and if everyone is going through this or if everyone has this at the surface and they haven't processed. I mean, you can take bereavement leave if a parent dies.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

But what do you say to your boss if you get dumped? And what do you say to your boss if you get dumped? And it's like your lover, not your partner, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you still have to function as well. So I just was really interested in exploring these feelings. And to your point earlier, where you said that the introduction sounded a little mean, this is the first in my three books, because maybe what I share with the narrator is a desire to be liked in this world or to get validation, and we can dive into, you know, the brownness and queerness and immigrant kid of it all. But with this book, I said, no, I don't need to be liked. And also, being heartbroken is annoying. Like, going through it is really taxing, not just on yourself, but on the people around you. And I thought, if I'm gonna write this authentically, this person isn't going to be likable all the time.

[B]

So I. I thought he was likable. You had kind of given this preface of, like, he's annoying, and people think he's annoying. And even when I reached out to you, I was like, I'm 30 of the book.

[C]

I really like it. I think you should come on the show. And you were like, I hope you don't find him annoying later.

[B]

I didn't find him annoying.

[C]

I felt like he was like a sad boy.

[B]

And like, sometimes I was a little.

[C]

Bit like, come on, narrator. Like, you could do it.

[B]

But I never was like about him.

[A]

Well, I guess I will say I'm. I'm. I'm happy to hear that, because I feel like the majority of the feedback I've been getting is, like, he's a Tough narrator. It's not so easy to sit with him compared to your other books. But I couldn't put it down. And so that felt. That feels like actually a great compliment. And I've been enjoying that feedback because I set out to do that, but I didn't know if I could pull it off. I didn't know if I could make someone that, you know, borderline annoying, let's say, or, like, self involved. But that's just it. Like, this is what happens when you're heartbroken. The world is falling apart, and the world is just fine. I mean, the world is a mess, but not because of your heartbreak, but you think it is. And everyone else looks at you and they're like, oh. The empathy comes out. And then the next wave is sort of like, they look at you with these. With these eyes that if you know your people well, you're like, oh, shoot, they're done with this. They don't want to hear this anymore. And then that actually is. I. I think it is great if you don't take it personally or even if you do, because it says, these people aren't worried about me. That means I'm going to be okay. Because if they were truly worried, then I should be worried. It's kind of like I am afraid to fly. And every time I'm about to get on the plane, I get really nervous, and then I search for reassurance, and then I get on the plane and I think, wait a second. If my husband really thought I was going to die, he wouldn't have let me get on this plane. Right?

[C]

True, true.

[A]

So. So I need to just chill out.

[C]

That's so funny.

[B]

I have. I have some plane anxiety. But the most confident I ever feel on a plane is when there's, like, sort of bad turbulence and the person next to me is visibly more scared than I am. And then I'm like, we're gonna be okay.

[C]

Like, I feel like I turn into, like, oh, it's fine. Like, chill out. Like, why are you being so dramatic? Even though I'm sitting there like, this is the end of my life. I am dying. This is coming down. 30, 000ft is a long way to fall. But then the person next to me, I see them, like, grab the thing, and I'm like, oh, it's okay.

[B]

Like, I just kind of look over.

[C]

And I'm like, it's okay, sweetheart.

[A]

The parent comes out. The parent comes out.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

As a person who interviews people for their work, I need to know what kind of questions you were asking. And specifically, when you were interviewing strangers at parties, what were you saying? Were you like, hey, I'm writing a book on heartbreak, or were you just like, hi, nice to meet you? Have you ever been heartbroken?

[B]

And then, like, what? Follow up, like, what? What were these conversations?

[A]

Yeah, so I would, you know, a little small talk first. How you doing? What do you do for a living? Okay, that's nice. Okay, what are you doing for the holidays? Oh, and that's really nice. How are you doing? And then I think in moments of vulnerability, I would say, you know what? I'm not doing great. Oh, what is it? I said, I kind of just had my heart broken, and I'm going through it. And they're like, oh, honey. So the really great people would be like, oh, honey, and take my hand, or do you want to talk about it? And other people would be like, oh, that's the worst. And then I would say, oh, so have you had your heart broken? And they're like, are you kidding me? How much time do you have? So that's. So I had, I would say, easily three dozen of those conversations. And. And so then I started to. To notice feelings and themes that were similar and ideas and the desperation, too. And I always ask the same question, which the narrator does in the book as well. I would say, how long does it last? And because my background is in public health, and I like, you know, large denominators. So I'm like, okay, one person, it's going to last 10 years. That's the outlier. And one person, it's going to last one day. Also an outlier. But what's the average here? What are we talking about? Because I can mentally prepare to be in my feelings if I know there's an end date. And so that was really helpful. And some people were like, you know what? It always kind of stays with you. And I'm like, don't say that to me. But they'd be like, but no, no, no, no, no. It's not like that. It just sort of stays with you as a memory, and it comes up, and it can even bring you some sort of happiness sometimes because it's a chapter in your life that you remember and it's ended, but it's. It's always there. And yeah, some people are like, oh, you're gonna wake up one day and you're gonna be like, oh, I don't feel it anymore. And I was like, oh, yes, how long? And they'd be like, I could be a few Weeks. It could be a few months. I'm not gonna lie. And I'd be okay. Months. I can do months.

[C]

I can do months. My therapist told me, you can get over anything in a year.

[B]

Yeah, but I only have one therapist, so maybe I need to get a.

[C]

Second therapist and be like, what's your assessment? Because I'm obsessed with two therapists.

[A]

I know. Well, I really wanted to lean into the anxiety of this character. And I thought, like, sort of ratchet up. I keep going, keep going, keep going. And the two therapist was something that I thought was kind of funny. And it happened to me years ago that I was transitioning out of therapy and I felt found another therapist. And so they overlap for. And I remember telling my friend Josh, and he's like, that is the premise for a book.

[B]

I have a friend who has two.

[C]

Therapists know about each other. I just found this out, and then I heard about.

[B]

And then I heard you say this in your book, and I reached out.

[C]

To them and I was like, do your therapists know about each other? And they were like, they do not. And I just throw back, I'm obsessed.

[B]

But I am obsessed. I'm just obsessed with this idea of having two secret therapists because I feel like. I don't know, I just feel like it's so.

[C]

Like, I sort of want two therapists now.

[B]

Like, I sort of want to know, are you. Who's the better therapist? Like, I would be pitting them against each other. I would say the exact same sentence.

[C]

And see how they responded and be like, oh, interesting. Yeah, not as effective as. As Fred or whatever.

[A]

Well, well, without, you know, giving too much away, we do learn over time that there's a reason why. I mean, this man is constantly seeking from. For reassurances from life and in general, for everything. And it has something to do with his mental health, but it also helped with this motif of middle right. He's not just caught between two partners and two kids and parents and children and generations and socioeconomic status, but between two therapists as well. And I. And I. Yeah, I love it. That was kind of fun.

[C]

I think it's great.

[B]

You keep talking about this, like, need for validation or, like, wanting to be liked. So I want to hear more about that. You sort of said we could talk about this later.

[C]

So what is it. What is it about that that is.

[B]

Interesting to you to explore?

[A]

So I do have that in common with the narrator, I think, to varying degrees. I believe it has something to do with my socialization, how I was Raised. For more on that, read the Town of Babylon.

[C]

No, I got to go back and.

[B]

Read the Town of Babylon. I never read it.

[C]

So I'm like, really excited.

[B]

I'm excited to go back into your.

[C]

Whole archive and like, read the other two books.

[A]

Thank you. No, but it is. I was raised in a working class, mostly white town on Long Island. We're the only Latin family in the immediate area. Things like that, being queer and closeted, all of those things, I think made it so that I felt very much on the outskirts of, you know, we call it marginalization from society. But in daily practice, it just meant that, like, I felt like I couldn't truly participate in everything that was going on around me. And so I tried extra hard to make up for it by being. Wanting to be popular and wanting attention and wanting validation. And so then it became this kind of cycle of searching for reassurance and in some ways has made me a great writer. Geez, did I say great? I just meant has made me a good writer.

[B]

You are a great writer. I like great.

[C]

I like great.

[B]

Stick with it.

[A]

Okay, fine.

[B]

This is making you unlikable.

[C]

You know, we're working on in our therapy session as your third therapist.

[A]

I, I think means that I was observing for so long and not fully participating. And I'm talking like, being in a college class and just not being able to raise my hand because I'm so afraid of being wrong. I'm so afraid of being, like, embarrassed and make it. Making it through almost four years of like, that. And. And so. But. But I had almost 40 years worth of conversations and ideas and things that I didn't always express. So when people are like, you're so prolific, you're three books in three years or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, it's going to run out. I just have four. I have 40 years worth of. Of ideas and notes that I need to get down and then. Yeah. And then we'll see what's next.

[B]

Do you feel like you have books, four or five? Like, do you feel like you have these things, you've got more already that you're ready to do and say.

[A]

I have eight books, fiction that I want to write, and I have one nonfiction book that I want to start soon. I quit drinking. My birthday was on Saturday.

[B]

Happy birthday.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

Oh, right, you said and you quit drinking.

[A]

Yeah. So in the lead up, I decided that would be my last day of alcohol. And this morning, if you can believe it, I was thinking that I would like to chronicle a Year without alcohol. And so every day I like to write a little bit about it, but in. In my way, also explore society and my upbringing and. And see what comes of it. So maybe that'll be the first book of nonfiction.

[C]

It's like Ross Gay Delight, Books of Delight. But it's like your book of sobriety or whatever. It's not a great title. Don't. I don't think you need that. I think we can workshop that a little better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, we could. I love that. I love that. One of the things you said in Texas at the festival was you talked about how when you wrote your first two books, everybody would come to you.

[C]

And be like, this is you. Like, this is. This is really, like, this is Alejandro.

[B]

This is auto fiction. And when you sat down to write Middle Spoon, you decided to actually put more of yourself in that book than maybe you did for the first two. And I'm curious how that has felt to you as people receive the book. Like knowing that more of you is maybe on the page than your first two books. And how. I don't know.

[C]

I'm just fascinated with people thinking they know people. And so I'm wondering if it.

[B]

If it feels different knowing that you did actually put yourself on the page more in this one.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. If. If you're my best friend or my dad or my mom, you know, in the first two books, more or less, what's me and what's not me or where I'm borrowing from. But I would argue that in the first two books, what I have in common with the people is that I'm brown and human and queer and. And a few. And a few political beliefs. But they're, you know, short stories. 13 stories. So 13 plots of things that never happened to me, and then an entire novel of things that never happened to me. And I thought that's what fiction is like. I wasn't. I didn't want to be like an old Greek woman. I didn't want my narrator to be an old Greek woman. And so I wrote in that way what I knew, that perspective with this book. Like I said, I borrowed from a difficult moment in my life, and then I went with it. And by the way, the. The kind of difficult moment, the pain I was going through was very short lived, very short lived. And then I had to finish writing a book, no longer feeling pain, feeling that.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So then I had to go a little like Method Daniel Day Lewis. And yeah, I'm like, what would this heartbroken person have in their Pockets right now, you know, and so. And that was an interesting exercise, and it was kind of fun, but, like, as I thought, you know, Clavis Natera. Of course.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so Clav. Yeah. So Clavis is just a wonderful person. And we were in San Antonio Book Festival a few years ago, and I was telling her about this idea. I'm like, an epistolary novel about heartbreak and polyamory and public health. It's kind of weird. And she said, you've earned the right to follow your weird. She said, you have two books under your belt. Just write what you want to write. I've always felt I've written what I wanted to write. But maybe this book, that idea that it's. It's too different, it's too outside the mainstream, it's too niche, made me worried. But. But honestly, I was like, there's nothing more universal than grief.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't think this book feels like that at all. Like, I feel like it feels very universal. I mean, I was taking notes about things that. As I was taking the notes, I.

[C]

Was like, you're doing the thing that white people do where you make someone else's story about you. You know, Like, I was, like, thinking. I was, like, writing things down about, like, men. And I was like, this is why we're having the male loneliness epidemic, because men are stuck in, like, certain norms of heteronormativity and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, this is literally a book about queer people, and you're trying to make it about straight men. Like, so, like, I feel like it does have that, you know, almost universal feeling because it is, like, so specific.

[A]

You know, I went to Winter Institute in February, you know, the American Bookseller Association. Yes. And it was my first time out with the book in the world. And it was several months before publication, and a handful of bookstore owners walked over to me and said, what you said at the top of the show. I didn't think I would like this. I read the description, and I still didn't think I would like it. And then I got in a few chapters, and I was hooked. And that made me feel really good. But I still think there are a lot of people who will read the description. And then it's done there, you know, like, they're just not gonna take a chance. And so I thought that's. That was what was gonna happen, you know? And so I didn't. I was a little concerned. A queer polyamory story. I mean, give me a break.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But I Mean, I could have made it a gay. A gay heartbreak story. Not. Not poly. Not polyamorous. I could have made it a straight. You know, I could have made it a white. You know, like, I could have kept making it more palatable for the mainstream.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. But I pick up a book because I'm like, I want a new experience. And so that was also a challenge while I was writing it. This narrator that I was less concerned with being lovable or being, you know, endearing, and also really thinking, how can I bring someone across the aisle here? I don't even mean the political aisle, but just, I'm in pain, you're in pain. Let's just focus on that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was teaching public health grad school, we used to do a case study and several case studies in a semester, and one of them was around trans health. This was in, like, 2012. And my students were. There was a lot of transphobia in the room, let's just say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we would. I would make the argument that, like, okay, you're not. You're not comfortable. You don't agree. You quote, unquote, have values. But can we agree that no one should be killed? Right. Like, because at the time, that was. The conversation around it was that we were focusing on a national day of trans remembrance, and we started there. We can agree that. And I think that has been my way of thinking about not just public health, but human relations and politics. What can we agree on? And so I thought, if I could write a book where we can agree on the pain of this. Great. And if I can write a book where we can think about, like, the OCD of. You know what I mean? There's the various ways in which we can just say we agree on these things, and so then the rest actually becomes easier to kind of take it.

[B]

Yeah. I think also for me, in the reading experience, while you're writing about something.

[C]

That I feel like everyone writes about heartbreak.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, every song is about heartbreak.

[C]

Every movie is about heartbreak.

[B]

This book feels extremely fresh. It doesn't feel like the same. Like, you're hitting the same beats as everyone else. And I think some of that is that while we've been talking about it.

[C]

As, like, this heartbreak book is really funny. Like, the narrator is, like, really, like. I don't know.

[B]

It's. I. Okay, I'm gonna use this word that.

[C]

I don't mean it in this way, but I'm gonna use it colloquially. Like, you said he was annoying, but he's not annoying. He's just like, dumb. Do you know what I mean? Like, he just says dumb and I'm like, stop. Like, you're so embarrassing, but it's like.

[B]

Endearing and it's enjoyable to be with him. And I think that feels really fresh because I know, at least for myself.

[C]

Sometimes when I am at my worst, like when I'm the most annoyed with someone else or like, feeling the most.

[B]

Like I am the funniest because I'm saying the dumbest.

[C]

And sometimes on purpose, like, to get a laugh, you know, like, I'm talking to my best friend and then I'm like, I don't know, I can't think of a good example, but.

[B]

But I feel like you really tapped into that part of it too. Like, the tangents he goes on and sort of the ideas that he gets into are just so. They feel so correct in moments of crisis. And I think that freshness also makes the book feel like people can relate to it or come into it. Because who hasn't had hot, hot, hot takes about the Oscars?

[C]

You know, like, you have a whole section of the book of like, how we need to rework the best acting categories and all of this. And you have like, this person deserve this. This person does that. And I was reading that section being like, yes, of course, because you could be feeling sad, but also you could still be feeling extremely self righteous about the Oscars at any given moment.

[B]

And if you weren't, I would be.

[C]

Like, this person sucks. They're no fun at all. You know, like, why would anyone ever be in a relationship with this person who doesn't have any insane takes about, you know, sexual sanitation or whatever?

[A]

And. But also, how do we. Or how as a writer, I guess, for me, I also thought, how do I make these digressions circle back so that they feel like you've left the path, but they're so related to the path we were on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, I'd like to say that with most of them, I was able to do that. Maybe not every single one. But, you know, the pop culture digressions have a lot to do with the fact that we're talking about a narrator who is really concerned with equity in life. Right. And how it has affected him and how it has affected his brain and his ability to process stress and all that. And there is no. Every day we are told who has value and who doesn't. That's what the pop in pop popular culture. Right, Right. So we're constantly being told this has value. This is the most important thing. And so I think it's almost that's why when people are like, well, you know, so many terrible things are happening in this world, why Oscar's so white. Yeah, that's a take. And I don't necessarily disagree with that, but sometimes I also feel like if the things that stand in for what is most important in culture feel equitable, then, you know, then we can measure ourselves against a better equity bar as opposed to what we're seeing or what.

[C]

We'Ve been living through. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, let's take a quick break, and then we're gonna come right back. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the new year is almost here, which means it's probably time to start thinking about those goals and resolutions. And if one of yours is to make more time for writing, I sort of have some good news for you. There's a totally free writing challenge happening in January. It's called Jan your story, and your mission is to write 500 words and every single day in January. Jan, your story is hosted by a new community called Memoir Nation, which was founded by Grant Faulkner, who's the former executive director at nanowrimo, and Brooke Warner, publisher of she Writes Press. With this challenge, you're invited to join hundreds of other writers to start your 2026 strong. Plus, you can keep that energy going all year long with the support of the Memoir Nation community. The best part? If you complete the challenge, you'll have written 15,000 words before the year has even really started, which is like hel talk about getting a head start on your goals. But your first challenge is to go and sign up. So to join, you need to head over to memoirnation.com you're going to hit the community button at the top, you're going to create an account, and then, voila, you're in. Once you are, go to the Jan your story page. For more details about the challenge, check out memoirnation.com to get started, have fun and good luck. You've got this. The new year brings so many opportunities for transformation. I'll never forget the day I decided to transform my love of reading into this very podcast. I had the drive. I had the idea. All that was left was taking that crucial first step towards my dream. Once I finally did, there was no looking back. It's time for you to tap into that new year fresh start energy and transform your passions into your profession. So take your first step with Shopify. Shopify is the key to starting that business you've always dreamed of. This all in one e commerce platform has everything you need to sell online and in person, including hundreds of templates to help you build your online store, help you write headlines and product descriptions, and built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social campaigns that reach even more customers. Shopify is also built to grow your business, allowing you to handle more orders and expand to new markets all from the same dashboard. Millions of entrepreneurs have already taken the leap. Why not make this the year you do too in 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com thestacks go to shopify.com the stacks that's shopify.com the stacks hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Okay y', all, the holidays are here. They are fast approaching. It is gift giving season with this podcast. I get to give you guys the gift of exclusive interviews with authors, a spicy little book club, juicy behind the scenes gossip every single week. And the best gift I could ask for return this year is your support on Patreon and Substack. And lucky for you, for the rest of December I have activated annual memberships on Patreon that are only $50 for new members. That is less than $5 a month to get access to even more amazing perks and a fun bookish community. Oh and you Substack people, I didn't forget about you. There is a 10% off substack sale going on right now. Both of these sales are going to last until the end of the year. That is December 31st. It's over. I will not be okay. So here's what you get on Patreon. You can join the Stacks Pack community. We've got book club meetups. We've got a private discord. We've got a year long reading challenge right now. You can also vote in our Stacky Awards. You can get the Mega reading challenge for 2026 and you can get my reading tracker over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked where I keep the book conversations going. I'm giving you a healthy dose of pop culture. Hot takes a lot of them. And both of those places for the paid tier. You are getting a monthly bonus episode. Now if you don't have the money for either of these things, I get it. That's fine. Guess what? There are free tiers for both of those. So go subscribe there. You still got a bunch of fun content both on Patreon and Substack and you're still supporting my work. Here's the thing I want to tell you while we're in this gift giving moment, guess what? You can give a gift subscription to Unstacked and or the Stacks pack to your bookish loved ones. I even have little printable gift card PDFs that you can give them if you like to hand out a little tangible item. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers, get back into reading. Just love the podcast. You want to support the work that I do, want to support my team, Come hang out with me on Patreon or Substack or both. You can find me on [e-mail] the stacks and on substack@tracy thomas.substack.com obviously links for both are in the show notes. Okay, we're back. One of the things we've talked about in this book is how the author is anxious and it comes out later in the book that he has ocd. And this might be a stupid question, but what is the clinical difference between these two things?

[A]

Okay. While I was writing the book, I learned about ocd. All my life, I think we've used OCD in a very jokey way, like I'll do the dishwasher, I'm ocd. I think that's actually.

[B]

And also we use anxiety in that way too. Now I feel like anxiety and OCD.

[C]

Are both sort of just like things.

[B]

We say, but they have real definition.

[A]

Right. And to your point earlier about the book being funny, first of all, thank you. But also anxiety, ocd, all sorts of mental illness, they are quite terrible to live through, very debilitating, painful, a big tax on you. Not just psychologically, but physically as well. And but on the page they're quite funny. They can be quite funny. And I think if you. That's what I did. I tried to lean into that anxiety and in this case OCD as well, and because I thought they would undercut some of the gravity of the pain. And also the professorial stuff, the digressions, anxiety is one thing and a lot of us feel or have anxiety or have been diagnosed with anxiety. And we go to a therapist and we talk about all the things that are on our minds and all the things that we're worried about all the time. Ocd, which I learned about while writing this book, learn with more intention, I mean, is the 10th most common illness in the world according to the World Health Organization.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Now, I don't know if the United States believes In the World Health Organization anymore?

[B]

No, of course.

[A]

But who. But I was like, wait, the 10th most common in the world? I need to know more about this. And what I learned is that if you can picture a cycle like a wheel or a circular pattern, and at the very top is obsession. I am worried that everyone hates me and my work. I'm wearing my work socks. Everyone hates it. And now I'm anxious. And this is like split second stuff, right? I thought crossed my mind. Now I'm super anxious about it. My compulsion will be I'm going to either ruminate and come up with an entire theory about what that interaction with Tracy meant and what it really is saying about me and my work. Taking control of that moment by coming up with a theory then leads to a. This is the last step in the cycle here. Leads to a momentary relief, and you feel control, even if it sucks. At least you took control of the narrative. I mean, you literally wrote the narrative in your head. And then guess what? You go right back to obsession because you solved nothing. So then it becomes a cycle. The thing that might change is how quickly you move through them. Or in the compulsive part, what. What your compulsion is. It could be calling your best friend and asking for reassurance. And every time they talk you down, they validate that obsession. So then the cycle continues. It could be going to a therapist. So that's why I said most people go with ocd, go to a therapist to talk about their anxiety. And a lot of therapists aren't trained to distinguish between the difference. And so they're validating your anxieties by reassuring you constantly that reassurance is a compulsion. And so it could be sex, it could be porn, it could be alcohol, it could be any number of things that in the moment give you control so you can feel temporary relief and then back to the obsession. So what I learned is that there are very specific evidence based treatments, namely around exposure therapy, where you interrupt right at obsession. You never get to anxiety the moment the thought crosses your mind, because what OCD is, is like this animal on your back and albatross, a monkey, I don't know which what the metaphor is. And it's telling you you don't have all the information, and you need all the information. And if you don't have that information, you're. You're in danger. I need to know how that person feels. I need to know why that person said, let's talk later. Oh, my God, don't do that to someone with ocd. I need to talk to you. Do you have time next week? What?

[C]

Next week, Please.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like, right now. So. So that's. So I also thought that lent itself to this. This guy's personality, too. Right. This narrator is trying. He wants answers to everything he wants. Instead of just feeling and not knowing what's coming. He's like, I need to know, and I need to abbreviate this torture. So he's trying to intellectualize it all away, I think.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. I mean, I feel like what you.

[C]

Just described, probably everyone listening is like, wait, do I have ocd? I mean, at least. At least I'm feeling that way.

[A]

My DMs have blown up with this book in ways that the first two didn't. And not just people coming out to me as poly or telling me that they are in so much pain because so and so left them a few months ago. Thank you for this salve that you. It's also like, my daughter was just diagnosed with ocd, and this is the first time I've seen this written about. Can you recommend some resources for me? So it's been kind of. And that maybe is the public health part of me, but also, I just want to always be careful. I read the heck out of the OCD information out there. I talked to lots of people, including therapists. I didn't want to misrepresent this, but I felt like it was important. Yeah. Lots of people. And I'm like, yeah, because if it's the 10th most common, 10th most. So then a lot of us are walking around with this.

[C]

Yeah. Wait.

[B]

Okay. I want to talk about the DM things. You. You and I talked about it briefly, like, just at a cocktail party, and I heard you talk about it briefly at the festival. But I'm cur. Curious about, like, you, Alejandro, just a regular degular guy who writes books. You're getting these dms about your work. I guess the question. It's less about, like, what's in the dms and more about how do. How does receiving them make you feel about your work? Like, what is the relationship between you? Like, the triangle, you, the DM, and then the book itself.

[A]

The DMs started. You know, they started with the first book, and they were always really heartfelt. I feel like you wrote about my life as a queer kid, as a brown kid, as a suburban kid, so on and so forth, and I didn't. I don't sit down and think, oh, I. I have to write for people who might connect with me, I think I'm writing about some pretty universal stuff that hasn't gotten a lot of attention maybe, or deserves more attention. And so that's out there. But it does reinforce my desire to be respectful about things. In my first book, I write a fair bit about schizophrenia, and I knew I did not want to get that wrong. I'm like, let me not hold up a system. Like already, schizophrenia is seen as such, like a villainous, dangerous illness. You know, you should be afraid, afraid, afraid. And I'm like, there are humans, you know, dealing with this every day. And when I started getting DMs from people with mental illness, some people were very honest about schizophrenia. Someone in their family, I thought, okay, I cannot let my guard down on this. So if I ever write about mental illness again, or health in general, I got to do the work and really think about how am I representing humans. And so the DMs, in that way, they're really hardening. They personally, they are validating. They make me think that I'm. I've chosen a path, a career, a job where I'm doing more good than harm. And that's all, you know, that's all I ever want. This is going to sound like humble bragging, but it's. It was just nice. And I hadn't had that experience before with this new book. For the first six weeks, every single day, like clockwork, I had two or three dms from someone saying, I just finished this. You don't understand. You don't understand. You understand. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I had another one being like, my favorite was people also shared their George Michael stories.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because there's a, as you know, there's.

[C]

A George Michael bit.

[A]

Yeah. Which is completely fabricated. And they were like, I also met George Michael. And I like, I didn't, but I just left it there. I was just like, thank you for letting me know. That's really great. But yeah, it's. It's quite heartening. Heartening. And it makes me want to keep writing. I was going to anyway, for the record, but it actually, it's like more impulse.

[B]

So people don't need to DM you.

[C]

To be like, keep writing.

[B]

Okay. You have a background in public health.

[C]

Which shows up in this book, and it sounds like maybe shows up in your other books.

[B]

Can you just talk about that? What was it about, about public health that you wanted, why you wanted to go into it? Was it hard to, to leave, to become like a full time authory guy? What, what's the. What's the deal there?

[A]

I, I stumbled into public health before I went into meet with the director of a program there at the University of Washington, Seattle. I don't think I. Yeah, I had never. I wanted to be a lawyer. I was thought for grad school, I'll go to law school. And I was just sort of working. But we moved to Seattle in search of, of a job for my partner at the time. And, and so I just went to the school and I said, let me see what you got. And when they started explaining to me what this program was in the school of public health, I thought, these are all my interests. This is everything.

[B]

What was the program?

[A]

It was called the Community Oriented Public Health Practice program. And effectively it was training public health workers to go right into the field and do community based work. And I was most interested in the work that met people where they were at and that made everyone you partnered with was an equal to you. So, you know, there were no research subjects. Theoretically. It was like you went into the field, sure, you had a grant from the state and it wanted to focus on diabetes. And so then you go to stakeholders in a community and you say, hey, we want to work on diabetes. What are you? And you ask them what are your biggest concerns? And if they say, you know, police profiling and bad schools and food deserts, then you have to find a way to make that the focus of the work that you're doing. Because if you're going to impose, it's just soft imperialism. Right? It's not like, right. Working on diabetes is bad, but it's not getting at the root causes. It doesn't get it through the causes. So public health to me was like, oh, it was the matrix. These are, we are a series of experiences, duh, right? And they determine our actions. Dealing with the actions and not the circumstances in which we live in that lead to those actions is such a fool's errand. It is a conveyor belt and you can never leave the conveyor belt. So that's what most interested me in public health. I was like, this is who I am. And I believe in some ways, having been the child of immigrants who spoke English as a second language, who moved into a community where we were not like the others. I was training to be a public health worker all along. I didn't even realize it. I was doing everything in my power to interpret culture and ideas and language to keep my family healthy and safe. And so it lent itself quite naturally to then studying public health. And then my passion just became around. Hierarchies and health. And so I wasn't doing that. I was doing cancer research and then hiv, AIDS curriculum, writing, and then teaching. And the teaching. I always. I realized so much of it. The communication that I was most interested in was writing either op eds or policy papers or research studies. And then I realized that telling people to wear a condom is so much easier than telling them to collapse a hierarchy. Sure. How do you do that? How do you operationalize that? And then I got to thinking about what media stays with me, song, TV and books. I thought, I want to communicate these ideas in a way that will stay with people and will reach more people. So that's where. That's where the writing came from. That's where it became narrative and storytelling. And I often tell in public health spaces, I will say I consider myself a public health worker and my medium is fiction.

[B]

That's so cool. Can you talk about what a hierarchy of health is?

[A]

So what we know is that when you start to separate people by status, by differences. So in a country like the United States, which is governed by capitalism, it is quite beneficial to people who hold the most power to separate us. Because if we're united, then we ask for more, and then profits are less. I mean, the point of capitalism, no one's going to argue with that, is profit increase. And so for a long time, for the history of this country and the world, we have been stratified by differences. So our race differences, our gender differences, our ability differences, all of those differences, which should be celebrated and beautiful, in fact, are become barriers. And what we know now is that when people feel that stress of difference, what does that look like? If you live in a community where you feel like you're being judged, where you feel like someone doesn't trust you, or you feel like you're being looked at in a strange way, where the cops might be coming after you, where at every moment you are reminded that you are either unwelcome, different, untrusted, all of those things. What happens is that this, the measure for stress, increases cortisol, this neurochemical in your body. That neurochemical is so helpful, Tracy, if you're trying to outrun a lion in the savannah.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Sounds like I need that.

[A]

Yeah, right. It's incredibly stressful. It's very useful. If you're about to give a speech or about to give birth, all of these things, it's fine because it's temporary. When that. When those levels stay elevated every single day of your life, the wear and tear in your body increases, and then life expectancy decreases. And so that's why in the United States, we have a life expectancy lower than what they have in Japan. Slight, almost the same, or lower than what they have in Cuba. In every other country where they have figured these sorts of things out. But we keep separating ourselves by differences. And it's quite obvious, because if you're up there in the hierarchy and I'm down here, Right. Like, we know in race, whites up here, black and indigenous down here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then everyone else falls into the middle in some way, shape or form. If you need a visual. If you're up there and I'm down here, we can't really connect.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We can have moments of connection. There can be Hollywood movies about those connections. But actually, in terms of entire communities, we are kept apart from each other. Make it a gender hierarchy, make it a sexual. Sexual identity hierarchy. We can say we're all, like, united in some moments, and we can have communities where micro communities. But by and large, the socioeconomic data bears out life expectancy, illness, earning potential. All of that shows that we are actually quite different. And as long as we're different, then we have higher levels of cortisol in our body. The 1% in this country has worse health outcomes than the 1% in all the other wealthy countries in the world because it affects everyone in the hierarchy.

[C]

Everybody.

[A]

The difference is the 1% can get a massage so they'll live longer.

[B]

Right. Okay, but can I ask you this, then? If you see yourself as, like, a public health worker and your medium is. Is fiction or is books, how do you make sure that what you're writing in your books doesn't come across as, like. Like preachy or, like, too moral or.

[C]

Like, that you're trying to do something, like, in the way that, like, one of my favorite songs, We Are the World, is just so cheesy because it's like a public health song, Right? So, like, how do you balance.

[B]

I just.

[C]

I just love the documentary that they did about how the song got made. So now I'm like. I've been listening to the song a lot this year, which is so embarrassing. And I love Lionel Richie, but how.

[B]

Do you make sure that you're not doing that? Because I feel like I could see Alejandro, the public health person. Like, I could see that the person who wrote this book, Thought, has thought a lot about these ideas and these concepts. Like, there's a lot of stuff about HIV and aids and, like, it comes up a lot in the work, but I never felt like you were trying to tell me some piece of information that I needed to agree with you on. Well, a little bit, because it's persuasive, because it's emails, but, like, it didn't feel like it didn't feel preachy.

[C]

It didn't feel like you were moralizing.

[B]

To me in a way that felt out of character for the book, is.

[C]

How I guess you should say it.

[B]

I should say it.

[A]

Well, I'm very happy to hear that. But it is a. That is a challenge I put on myself all the time. And I would say that the first draft of every piece of writing I've ever had has been too preachy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I've been finding. Trying to find my tone that's. I'm getting better at that with each work, to be honest. There are two things there. I try to undercut a lot of that with humor. I'm still trying to tell a story like I am.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Maybe it's because I grew up in a stressful household, and you don't want to upset people in a stressful household. You want everyone to be happy all the time. And so when I'm writing, I'm thinking of a room. I'm not like, I want everyone to love this, but I am thinking I want everyone to enjoy when I'm writing. You know, I do want there to be pleasure from the work. I want people to like the sentences. I want people to be moved. I want people to laugh. I want all of that. And so.

[C]

Wait, can I ask.

[B]

Just insert a quick question. Who are you thinking of that's in that room? Are you thinking about who is in the room specifically?

[A]

I guess I'd be lying if I said no, but I try not to make it that specific. I think sometimes I do think specifically around marginalized communities or oppressed communities. I'm thinking. I don't. What. Where are my. I don't know if this phrase is correct, but where are my blind spots here? What. What will I write here that in some way will reinforce an idea or it just won't come across? That's what I. That is kind of an edit. Mentally for myself, I'm just like, wait a second, is this three dimensional, or did I just recreate a trope that I've hated for, you know, the last 40 years? I'm usually okay on that front, but it is a concern. So in that way, I guess I'm thinking, if so and so read this book, would they be like, ale? No, man, you just. You just did us wrong. Right? Like, that. That is a feeling that crosses my mind. But generally, I'm just thinking what I think every time I'm at a party. I want the room to. I want the circle I'm in to smile, right? Like, I want you to enjoy my company. And so I think I want you to enjoy the words that I'm putting on the paper. And so that's. That's part of it, is. It is a desire to do that. So then it does become about, like, reading the room, literally, in a literary way. This is a lot. But how do I make this a lot funny? So interesting that it. That it disarms you so that even though you are being preached to, it's like, well, this is kind of fascinating. So I kind of want to know this. And then there is a whole streak in me when I'm like, oh, do I cut this? Do I keep this? Do I keep this? But I'm like, you know what? If I only live to be 79, I'm 46 as of Saturday. I need to get this thought out there. And so it may turn off a bunch of people when they read that thought, but I bet you the people. There are some people to be activated by that thought. And so I just need to. I need to put this out in the world. And.

[B]

And then I have activated. I was activated by the. I was. I was like, oh, I love this. I love the way that this guy.

[C]

Thinks, you know, our narrator.

[A]

And then I have, like, people like Ibrahim Ahmed, my editor at Viking, and Robert Gensler, my agent at Sterling. They are first readers, and I think I trust them. If I was really messing up here, they would say, hey, dude, cut it back. You know, this is not. You're going to lose more audience than you think.

[B]

Do you ever think, okay, this is something I.

[C]

This is, like, not really about you, but it could be. I think it might be one day.

[B]

Which is like, do you ever think about how people have these editors and agents early in their career who they really like, who they really trust? And then as the people get older and more successful, they still have the same team, but the work is worse.

[C]

Because those people no longer feel like they can tell them, like, hey, this sucks.

[B]

Do you ever worry about that?

[A]

I have not worried about that on myself, because I am. I edit the heck. I wrote this book in five weeks. Oh, the first draft. And I edited. I edited for a year and a half.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so.

[B]

So you throw everything on the page as quick as you can, try to just get the bones, get the story and then you're gonna go back and like, td.

[C]

Like.

[B]

And how many edits is that?

[C]

Do you edit all the way through or do you do like, I'm gonna.

[B]

Get this scene right, or I'm gonna get this email right, and then go on to the next one?

[A]

I edit all the way through painstakingly. I might. Part of my new practice with this book is I. I start at different places in the book and then circle back.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It's very easy to get caught up editing the first chapter and the first paragraph forever, like. Like the first child. And then the first child is great. And then you get to the middle child and you're like, what? I forgot about. And then by the end, you're like, you just threw the diaper at the child. You didn't even write. And so I. And you feel that when you're reading people's books. How many times have I talked to friends who are like, it's spectacular. Then I call them back, I'm like, how so? And so, oh, it dropped off in the middle. And by the end, I wasn't so interested. And you realize. Yeah, that's because every time you got up to go to the bathroom, you went back and edited from the beginning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so by the end, you edited a lot less. So I make sure that process to. To edit for a long time. But to. To go back to your original question, I have read work by people who I adore and who's. Or whose work I adored. And then I got into a place where I'm like, oh, they let you have way. Like, people just stop giving you opinions.

[B]

They're not telling you the truth. I don't know. How could you have the same team who did that first book, and now on your ninth book, it is this.

[C]

I'm just like you. They're lying to you because you're a cash cow for them or whatever.

[B]

That's my nightmare as a person who.

[C]

Makes things in the world.

[B]

It is my nightmare that.

[C]

That someone who I trust in the beginning, not. Not to put doubt in your head about your lovely team. It's just something that I think about.

[B]

Especially this time of year, because it's.

[C]

Like book award season and the lists and everything. And sometimes I'll see things on these lists, and I'm like, that wasn't even good. They're just famous, you know? And I'm just like, I hate it here. This is really just me venting, I think.

[A]

No, I think I know exactly what you mean. And this does happen. Yeah. But I. My hope is that that will never happen.

[B]

Mine too. Well, I'll make sure to. We make sure to clip this section and send it to your team so.

[C]

They know we don't want them to.

[B]

Be nice to you. Even when you become a star of.

[C]

The literary world, a household name, we're.

[B]

Going to be like Ibrahim.

[C]

Stick it to him.

[A]

Yeah, but. But let's. Yeah, let's also pin some hopes on Cash Cow. What did you call it? Let's. Let's.

[B]

Yeah, Cash Cow.

[A]

Let's look for a cash cow.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

We want this for you.

[A]

I want one Cash cow.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

No, you.

[A]

You.

[B]

You are the cash cow.

[A]

Oh, I see. Oh, I see.

[C]

Because anything you write makes money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You are the cash cow. Eventually you become that. I don't want to name names, but there are some people whose books have come out this year that are cash.

[B]

Cows, and they're bad books. But let me ask you this. Besides the obsessive editing that goes on for years and years, how do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often music or no snacks or beverages? Are you in your house? Are you at a coffee shop? Do you have rituals? Give me the scene.

[A]

There's no better place to write for me than on the Long Island Railroad heading from New York City into Long Island. Either visit my parents or to go to Fire island or to take a trip. Nothing better. Same goes with Amtrak if I have to. There's no worse place for me to write than a plane, because on a plane I'm too nervous and I've either had the assistance of a medication or a beverage. And so then I'm not the same person. But I. I require a certain amount of quiet. And so sometimes I'll just put white noise on my headphones. Sometimes I can't listen to new music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If it's new, I'm too interested in what I'm listening to.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I will listen to. Sometimes if I'm on a roll, I will just hit repeat on a song and I can just listen to it for like an hour on the train.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Does the song have words or is it like classical or instrumental?

[A]

Oh, it has words. It has words. I wish I could give you an example right now of one. There's a. I. There's a new song by Jane Hancock featuring Anderson Paak called Stare at Me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's a jam. It's so, so fun. I don't. The Grammys drop the ball big time.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I had not heard of Jane Hancock before, but Jane, you killed it.

[C]

Jane, we love you. Big fans over here.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, so, music. When I wrote the first book, I needed to get into the mindset of that era that takes place in the late 90s. I made a list of 170 or 80 songs from 1994, 1997, and I listened to those on loop for the 13 weeks that I wrote that book. Or 12, whatever it was. And I. Yeah. So sometimes I need to do exactly that for. For time travel.

[B]

Yeah. What about snacks and beverages?

[A]

Just water. I can't really be. You know, that's a lie. I have been known to. Especially when I'm vacation or when I'm taking, like, a auto retreat. I'll just be like, I'm gonna leave town for the weekend and write. If I can do that. It's happened so infrequently, but I will treat myself to a martini in the afternoon, and then I will go home and write really well for a couple of hours or a few hours. And then I'll go out. Yeah. And have dinner. That. It's nothing more romantic to me than sitting at a restaurant by yourself and really at the bar by yourself and having.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whatever it is. I love that feeling.

[B]

But no snacks. You are clearly not a snacker, is what I'm hearing.

[A]

I'm not sure.

[C]

Great for our relationship, to be honest.

[A]

I'm sure I have snack. What ends up happening is that when I'm on a roll, I don't take care of myself. I will hold in having to pee. I will not get up to get water. I will not. And so that is. That's really bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But. But you know what? When I go to the library, I will fill up my bag. I have a bag of, like, of roasted peas here and some dried salmon. I'm on a protein kick right now.

[C]

Oh, my God, you're so healthy. I want to die. I was hoping you were going to be like, I'll throw in, like, mm.

[A]

I wish I could remember that brand. These delicious M and M, like, candies right now that are gluten and dairy free and they have.

[B]

Oh, right. Are you also gluten and dairy free, like our narrator?

[A]

I am. I am. I'm giving some love to those communities in my books because. Yes.

[C]

Congrats to you, communities. I'm so glad I'm not there. Really ruined my life. I'm an extremely picky eater, and so, like, there's basically a lot of things I just don't eat, and then I have a few allergies, so. Cert, like, dairy free.

[B]

Not an option for me.

[C]

That's, like, how I get the majority of my protein. It's like, basically Greek. Yogurt is my. Is my entire source of protein.

[A]

I'm the exact opposite. I have. My superpower was that I could eat absolutely everything. You put it in front of me. I will eat whatever you make. I will. I won't. Bad Nye lash. But then I turned 40, and gluten and dairy became my enemies. And now I just.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I turn 40 next year if that happens to me.

[C]

God, I can't. Please don't. That will be the heartbreak of my life. Yeah, that will be. That will be the thing that finally gets me to write a heartbreak novel.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, we're basically out of time, but I just have, like, two more questions for you.

[B]

One is that for people who love.

[C]

Middle Spoon, what are some other books.

[B]

You might recommend to them that are in conversation with what you've created?

[A]

I will say that Natalia Ginsburg is a writer, Italian writer, who I discovered not that long ago. And I really love her voice. I don't. I think it's maybe praising myself too much. Say we're in conversation, but I eavesdrop on her conversations, let's say. So Natalia Ginsburg's work is just fabulous. Thomas Bernhardt and his work. Whether it's Wittgenstein's Nephew or Loser or Extinction. These are really curmudgeonly books that. With exhaustive narrators or exhausting. Sorry, exhausting narrators. But that I learned so much from. And so I really love it. And I feel the same way about Seabald W.G. sebold. I'm trying to think of someone maybe more contemporary that would. That I would say. But nothing comes to mind immediately.

[B]

That's okay. We love a backlist moment. Okay, last question for you. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

[A]

Hey, Terry Gross. Give me some love.

[C]

Oh, Terry, sure.

[A]

That would be cool.

[C]

We like it.

[A]

Well, that would be a lot.

[B]

You've never been. You've never done Terry Gross.

[A]

I've never been on npr. I thought I was NPR ready.

[B]

I think you are, too. See, this is how we're gonna get.

[C]

You to be a cash cow.

[B]

First you. That's the first step, right?

[C]

You gotta work your way up.

[B]

And then you get to npr, then it starts trickling in.

[C]

Then you write another that you know. And then all of a sudden, look at you. You could write about anything you want, and it could Suck.

[B]

And you could sell a million copies.

[C]

You'd be on the New York Times bestseller list every day.

[B]

Oh, and then I have to read it, and then I have to be.

[C]

Annoyed because I'll be like, I used to like his stuff, but not so much anymore.

[B]

But we don't want that for you. We want a prolifically good cash cow.

[A]

I will. Can I. Can I give someone who's dead?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My friend Jean, who died in very old age, but a couple of years after the pandemic started. Unrelated to the pandemic. He was my biggest champion. I love, adore this man so much, and so I wish he could have read all of my books. He did get to read the first one, so I'm happy about that.

[B]

I did. Oh, I love that. Okay, people of the world, you can get this beautiful book, which also happens to be in my favorite color combination, pink and red. It's my go to. Everything I own is pink and red, from my water bottle to my Kindle case. So obviously that was a draw for me, too. You can get middle spoon wherever you get your books. You can listen to the audiobook I listen to some of. It's absolutely delightful. It's. It's such a voicey novel, obviously, since.

[C]

It'S epistolary and it's written in emails.

[B]

It's all one voice, so it's really great on audio. Alejandro, thank you so much for being here. This was wonderful.

[A]

Thank you, Tracy. I really appreciate this. This is a blast.

[B]

And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you to Alejandra Andrew for joining the show, and thank you to Magdalena Denise for helping to make this episode possible. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team and a dream by H.G. bissinger, which we will discuss with Joel Anderson on Wednesday, December 31st. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out our [e-mail] make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok. And now we're also on YouTube and you can check out our [e-mail] this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrate, and our theme music is from Takirajis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.