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- [00:01]
A
The good news is this year, nobody has agreed on a single book all year. So I think we're all gonna pick books that are rightfully best winner best books of the year. Because who fucking knows?
- [00:12]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [00:13]
C
Funny, because I feel like I have a sense of what books are in your top tier, Tracy. I have no clue, Greta, what you are interested in, what you've been loving.
- [00:24]
B
The weirdest list over here. It's so weird. I can't. I can't wait.
- [00:34]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and it is finally time for the episode you've all been waiting for. It is the Stacks best books of 2025. I am joined today by two longtime friends of the podcast, New York Times Book Review Editor, MJ Franklin and host of the brand new podcast. Happy to be here. Who you might also remember from the Nerdette podcast, Greta Johnson. Today, MJ Greta and I get together. We pick our 10 best books of the year. We also reflect on the year of 2025 and books, and of course, look forward to what we expect in 2026. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team and a dream by H.G. bissinger, which we will discuss with Joel Anderson on Wednesday, December 31st. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes. If you like this podcast. If you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each place offers different perks like community conversations, bonus episodes, virtual book clubs, hot takes and more. Plus, your support makes it possible for me to make this podcast the Stacks every single week. To join, go to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracythomas.substack.com all right, now it is time for us to get into the 10 best books of 2025. All right, everybody. It is the most wonderful time of the year. And I'm not just saying that because this episode drops on Christmas Eve. I'm saying that because we are doing the stacks 10 best books of the Year episode, an annual favorite. This is always everyone's favorite episode. Not least of which, why. Wait, that's not a sentence.
- [02:31]
B
Yeah, go.
- [02:32]
A
Is that right? Not least surprise, because why? Yep, it's perfect. We are joined by two of my favorite book people and two of your favorite book people, the wonderful Greta Johnson and the equally wonderful MJ Franklin. Welcome back to the Stacks, both of you.
- [02:52]
C
Thank you for having us back. I feel like last year, we just had, like a huge love fest last year, and we were just like, we love these books. We love each other. Let's hang out. And then we're back.
- [03:01]
A
Except for one thing. What? What did you do last year, Greta? Oh, I. You know, I knew you were going.
- [03:07]
B
To give me shit for this Again, Tracy, I, like, really randomly, right at the end, kind of like panic picked a book, and it was the Ministry of Time, which I stand by, but I feel like you had a lot of qualms with that.
- [03:20]
A
Well, that was our first book club pick this year here at the Stacks. And the whole time I kept saying, well, it's probably going to get better because Greta put it on our top 10. And for those of you who don't know, the way our top 10 works is that we each pick three books. We have not discussed which three books we've each picked. We all have a few backup books in case someone else picks one of our books, and then we try to come to a consensus on the 10th book. In previous years, it has been so easy to pick the sort of agreed upon 10th book this year. I don't know what's going to happen. What I do know is that because I don't vet the books and I let everybody pick their own books. Greta had a coup last year and.
- [04:01]
B
Pick is a really strong.
- [04:03]
A
90% of people hate. It made me almost change the rules this year. I almost had to be like, okay, send me your book so I can read them all before I put my name on them.
- [04:13]
C
I know. I was going to say I love the energy. Was like, best time of the year. My favorite people. Let's start. Greta, what did you do last you?
- [04:20]
A
I know what I love about you most is that you're both. Is that you're both accountable. Okay. Okay. Okay.
- [04:30]
B
It's so funny because just this morning I was like, I wonder how much Tracy's gonna give me for this. And here we are.
- [04:37]
A
We're all consistent, you know, we're all consistent. The good news is this year, nobody has agreed on a single book all year. So I think we're all gonna pick books that are rightfully best winner, best books of the year, because who knows?
- [04:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:52]
C
Funny, because I feel like I have a sense of what books are in your top tier. Tracy. I have no clue, Greta, what you are interested in what you've been loving.
- [05:03]
B
Weirdest list over here. It's so weird. I can't. I can't wait.
- [05:08]
A
For the first time ever for me, I am sitting in front of a list of about 11 books. I have not actually picked my three books. I feel paralyzed by the choices I have. I feel like I would like to throw some curve balls in, but I'm also scared that you all won't be picking books that I think should be there and that I'm going to have to, like, reset to make sure that the right books make the list. So I want to know how you all are approaching this year's list.
- [05:42]
C
Greta is just, like, nervously loud. I'm gonna let you take it first, Greta.
- [05:48]
B
Well, I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 kind of seven books on this list. And I think, Tracy, it's. I mean, obviously you, as the. As the holder of the keys of this episode, are like, I think you probably feel a little more responsibility. I'm just like, full chaos. Like, I don't know. I don't know what's about to happen.
- [06:12]
A
Okay.
- [06:13]
C
I'm in the same.
- [06:14]
B
And I'm sorry.
- [06:17]
C
You're welcome. I'm sorry. I love the energy. Like, okay, Greta, what did you do already? Greta's apologizing for this.
- [06:23]
B
I know, right? Well, I think part of it, and I think you, too. And I'm curious, mj, to hear, like, what your approach was to this, too. But, like, generally, like, there is no widely agreed upon, like, set of books like, there was last year. Like, this was a less good book year in general. So partly I think it's like, sure, I liked a lot of books fine. But, like, especially in this, like, dumpster fire of a year, what brought me the most joy, I think is, like, as opposed to, like, what is just unequivocally the best book? Because there's no consensus on that. And then it's like, okay, well, like, which ones, like, did I connect with the most strongly? So it is just, like, a weirder list, I think, in general, this year, I agree.
- [07:05]
C
For me, I had, like, one book where I was like, this definitely has to be on here, and I'm not sure if other people would choose it. And then I had a whole tier of great books that I want to somehow get onto the list, but I don't know what other people would choose. And so do I mention that first or last? Like, how do I game the strategy of composing the list so that I get the mo. The most as many of my favorites on this list. But then also, in terms of this year, I feel like I keep thinking about it as, like, an album, I feel like there are a lot of great singles, but this year as an album wasn't working. Wasn't working okay for me.
- [07:51]
A
This year as an album, there were a lot of skips. I DNF'd so many books this year. Just broadly, I don't finish books often. Like, I might start something and just put it down. I just forget. Or, like, a deadline comes up. But I actively put down at least 20 different memoirs.
- [08:11]
C
Wow.
- [08:11]
A
I was like, I, I. This year in memoir was so horrible for me. That being said, in my 11 books that I'm potentially going to talk about today, three of them are memoirs. So, like, three of the books I really loved this year did end up being memoirs. But so many memoirs I read this year were so bad. Like, I was telling people, I think memoir as a genre is done like, memoir is a failed genre. We have reached the mountaintop. We can never come back down. We can never do it again. Like, this is it. If you're writing a memoir, pens down, babe. Pencils down. It's over.
- [08:51]
C
But that's the weird part of this year. You're like, this memoir is over. Out of my 11, I have three memoirs. Like, I have three.
- [08:59]
A
But the chances that any of them actually make it on the list are low. So, like, I don't know, mj, how.
- [09:06]
B
Many titles are you, like, ruminating over? Right. I'm just curious, like, what our total number is to see what it takes for us to get to our final 10.
- [09:14]
C
Here I have five. I have five overall of that top tier, and then I have, like, a second tier where I'm like, I love these. Other people might not love them. This is, for me, something that we talk about a lot at the book review is the difference between, like, a best and a notable or a best and a favorite. Like, I, as an editor and as, like, someone reading all of these books, I'm always trying to, like, bring myself and my own taste to the list, but also recognize that I am one particular person with a set point of view. And, like, then I try to remove myself and recognize, like, okay, I love this book, but is it a best book? Or, like, this is a best book, but is it a favorite book? Like, so for me, I have my five I love personally, and I think they're the best. And then I have a tier of like, I think these are good. Maybe not my favorites. And then I have my favorites, but maybe they're not best. And so then I'm just sorting through all of these.
- [10:10]
A
I see okay. Most likely, if you guys are up for it, we should release the full list of all of the ones we were working through. Just like.
- [10:19]
B
That does seem like a nice thing we could do.
- [10:21]
A
That might just be a fun thing to do. That being said, just broadly, approximately. I know, mj, you don't track this, but, like, how many books do you think you've read so far this year and how many of them do you think came out this year?
- [10:34]
C
I did track this this year. Last year you gave me a challenge. You gave me a challenge and I tracked it. So on my per. I keep them separate. Personal reading and work reading. On my personal reading list, I have read roughly 63 books this year.
- [10:50]
B
Nice.
- [10:50]
A
Okay.
- [10:51]
C
On my professional reading list, I have had to at least read into. Dip into 288 books this year.
- [11:02]
A
Wow.
- [11:03]
B
I'm so glad you counted. That's crazy.
- [11:05]
C
It's too many.
- [11:06]
A
And how many of them do you think are 2025 books? I'm assuming the work ones mostly, but maybe the personal ones, not as much.
- [11:17]
C
The work ones are all 2025 books, and then the personal ones are, I want to say, like 70%. 2025 books.
- [11:27]
A
Okay. Okay. What about you, Greta? Do you have a sense of how many books you've read so far this year?
- [11:31]
B
And yes, I did my homework. I counted today, 97 books.
- [11:38]
A
Okay.
- [11:39]
B
I didn't count how many are backlist. I should have. I think it's probably about. I would guess it's like 15 to 20. Our backlist.
- [11:49]
A
Okay. As of today, I've read 111 books.
- [11:54]
B
Nice.
- [11:55]
A
I'm lying. It's 112. I finished audition last night. 112.
- [11:59]
B
Good for you.
- [12:00]
A
I. I prepared before I finished the book. And of that list, 66 are from 2025, so about 58, 59. The reason my reading is a little bit lower 2025 than normal is because one of my reading goals this year was to read more classics. So a lot of the fiction I read this year was backless. Like deep backless in many cases. You know, I was. I read Edith Wharton, I read Frankenstein. Like, I was really trying to read older books. So my fiction reading this year, I think I only read maybe 15, 2025 novels. The rest was nonfiction. So I pretty much was like, if I'm reading fiction, it's going to be old, and if I'm reading nonfiction, it's going to be new.
- [12:43]
C
Can I ask, did.
- [12:45]
A
Yeah.
- [12:45]
C
Reading so much backlist change how you thought about current books? Did current books change how you thought About Backlist. Part of the reason why I love, like, reading Backlist or canon is you're like, oh, wait, this thing I've been seeing recently, this has its roots here. I have this greater appreciation for literary history and like, just the evolution of the novel or whatever craft or genre. Did you see anything?
- [13:06]
A
Yes, I would say. I mean, it's kind of become a running joke on the podcast, which is since I read Frankenstein, I have talked about Frankenstein in every episode because every book, Mary Shelley's attempting to get to Frankenstein. Like, the hollow half that I read, I was like, this book is in conversation with Frankenstein. I mean, I, like, I don't know if I got it in my conversation with Samin Nosrat, but I'm pretty sure every other episode I've done since then. And even we, we read Friday Night Lights for book club this month and there's a Frankenstein reference in Friday Night Lights. I'm like, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. So I think, like, I do think Frankenstein has been, like, really in my brain. I think, can we agree that's the.
- [13:47]
B
Best book of 2023? Can we just do it? Just full.
- [13:50]
A
I think it is my number one book of the year. Like, I, I have to do my, my ranked reads and I'm like, really torn about picking an old book as my best book of the year, but I'm just like, it was great.
- [14:00]
B
I feel like that sounds a lot.
- [14:01]
A
So I think, yeah, I mean, it's really a banger. She was 19. Like, everybody older than 19. If you haven't written Frankenstein, you're. You failed. Like, like there's no, there's no anything else. Like, everyone's like, oh, Toni Morrison was 40 when she wrote the Bluest Eye. Like, okay, but Mary Shelley was 19 when she wrote Frankenstein.
- [14:20]
C
2025 being the year that Tracy became a Mary Shelley. Stan was not on my bingo card.
- [14:26]
A
I love it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I. I'm like, all I do is scream about it. So I do feel like that book has really informed my reading. I also think reading classics makes new books that feel just okay feel even more okay. Like, I'm just like, okay, well, that no one's talking about that in five years.
- [14:41]
C
Have you. Now this is just a full on tangent, but have you read Elif Botman, who wrote the Idiot, has this kind of controversial London Review Books essay. It's called Get a real. Get a Real Degree. And it's a review of a history of like the MFA program. But she opens it with this idea of the MFA versus the PhD. If you're studying literature, the MFA teaches you about the craft of writing, the PhD teaches you about literary history. And one of her gripes is that in the mfa, there are constantly people feeling like they have invented something new. I have never done this. It's never been seen this play with perspective. And then if you study the PhD, if you get a PhD, you're like, wait a second. Jane Austen did that. And I know this because I. I've been studying, and I feel like that's. That's always something that I'm in, is in the back of my mind. Like, the innovations that we're kind of marveling over, do they have historical roots?
- [15:39]
A
Yes, I. I agree. I agree. And I think, like, that's why I wanted to focus on classics this year, because I was like. I feel like there's things that people are referencing that I'm missing. All right, ladies and gentlemen, I think we gotta dive into this. Into this list, because Greta has been really, like, positive, joyful, telling us that her choice. She's locked and loaded. I'd like to go start with you. Chaos. Chaos. Greta, what's your first pick?
- [16:08]
B
Locked and loaded. Okay. Gosh, this is so weird. I don't even. Okay, great. We're Gonna Do Good Things by Samin Nosret.
- [16:17]
C
Oh, that is an unexpected one.
- [16:20]
A
Okay, okay. I've read it. It is a good thing. Talk about it.
- [16:25]
B
It's not fiction, I think, as I said earlier, I feel like. I mean, especially last year, but so many years, there are books where, you know, you finish it and you, like, want to buy a million of them and, like, force them into the hands of everyone, you know and love. This year generally just was not a year like that for me, but Good Things is definitely one of those books. It's Samin's second cookbook, of course. It's the follow up to Salt, Fat, Acid Heat, which was critically acclaimed. I think it, like, changed the cooking landscape for most humans. It changed how we think about recipes. It definitely changed how I think about food in general. And it created. I mean, you know, this. Tracy, you just talked to her. Like, it created such a shift for Samin herself in terms of her own life and how famous she became and how she reckoned with that. And this book feels like such a distillation of, like, all of those things. And it's a. It's a cookbook. It's a celebration of simplicity. It's a celebration of goodness. I think especially the chapter about dessert just, like, completely blew my mind. That idea. She talks a little about how, like, she has spent most of her life depriving herself of pleasures. And, you know, yes, we need protein and other, like, specific vitamins to survive, but our brains are also designed to appreciate sugar. And so, like, why not let yourself have sweetness, I think is such a beautiful sentiment, especially in this, like, horrific hellscape of a year, you know? So it. I just, like, connected with it really strongly, and I think everyone should read it.
- [18:05]
A
I love it. I've read it. I love to read a cookbook cover to cover. Somebody once said to me, I think when we actually did Samin's book for book club, we did sulfat acid Eat is our only time ever doing a cookbook for a book club. And, like, my guest said that he liked to read cookbooks cover to cover because every. You always get a happy ending. Every recipe is a happy ending. I love that. I was like, that is so sweet. I love that.
- [18:28]
C
Can I ask Tracy, are you surprised by this? I know you read this recently, and I was listening to your unstax ranking.
- [18:34]
A
And I am a little surprised. I am a little surprised. I mean, I like the book. I'm. I'm, of course, surprised that a cookbook would make our list, but I also. I didn't think this was, like, a perfect cookbook cook because, like, I thought the organization of it was very confusing to my brain.
- [18:48]
B
That's interesting. Yeah.
- [18:50]
A
But I liked it. I could. Here's the thing. I've cooked from it so far. No, not a problem. Not a problem. Site perfect. So that is always good. But the organization was confusing in my brain. But I did like it. I think it's a good. I think it's a beautiful cookbook.
- [19:07]
B
It's also a beautiful.
- [19:08]
A
And I think. I do think the, like, ethos behind it of sort of, like, what does it mean to live a good life? What does it mean to, like, build a life that you're. That you are happy to be in and that you find pleasure in and excites you is really important. And almost like that this book could be. Not that I'm advocating for any more memoirs, but, like, that Samin's memoir will probably come out of this book. Do you know what I mean?
- [19:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think her own trajectory is really interesting. I think, you know, just like, comparing the two books and how very deeply different they are, even though you can tell they came from the same brain and heart, is so interesting.
- [19:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:47]
C
Greta, you mentioned the dessert. What she says about dessert. You should read the essay In Defense of Saccharine by Leslie Jamison. It's in her collection, the Empathy Exams. And it's about sweetness and sugar and allowing yourself to feel and, like, how she just loves this, like, artificial sweetener. And it's. It's all that good stuff. It's great. You should read it.
- [20:08]
B
Wonderful.
- [20:09]
A
I will. Okay, mj, you're up next.
- [20:11]
C
I am a little bit nervous because I feel like I'm gonna get yelled at. But my first book, my definite Finally We Do Not Part by Hong Gong.
- [20:20]
A
Okay. Why do you think you're gonna get yelled at?
- [20:22]
C
Because this was a divisive book. The reason why is it's about. It's this, like, cerebral, hallucinatory literary novel about the short version is there's a documentarian who is kind of, like, spiraling after she worked on a documentary about a massacre in Korea. And then all of a sudden, she gets this call from her friend who's like, I need you to help me. I was working on a memorial project, and I cut off on my fingers, and, like, I left my parrot at my home on this island. And she has to go on this journey to the island. And that's like, you're not sure what's happen. There's a lot of stuck in the snow and a long scene at a bus stop, and you're like, am I in purgatory? And then she gets to the island, and who does she find there but her friend, who she's like, wait a second. How are you here? I know for a fact that you're, like, stuck in this hospital. A lot is going on.
- [21:20]
A
That's sounds like it.
- [21:22]
C
Here's my defense of this book. My defense of this book. It is so moving about care, family history, and the way that lives with us, whether we know it or not. The idea that we have to feel pain and grapple with our country's sins. It is so smart on all of those. It is so intricate and smart. And you get the sense that I am reading a master at the top of her class. It is a book that is challenging, but I think everyone should read. And I think it's, like, just like the All Star standout book of the year. So please don't yell at me. I love this book.
- [22:05]
A
I'm not yelling. I'm not yelling. I'm not yelling. I. Sorry. I shouldn't have. I shouldn't have got. I didn't get mad at Greta last year until this year, to be fair.
- [22:13]
C
True.
- [22:14]
A
You know, like, I wasn't like, yeah.
- [22:15]
B
You were just like, confused.
- [22:16]
A
Last year, I was confused because you loved Margot's Got Money trouble.
- [22:20]
B
I know. I don't know why I didn't pick that. Anyway, here we are.
- [22:23]
A
Anyways, justice for Margot. So, no, you're. You're free to pick what you want. Greta just picked a cookbook. You think you're gonna get yelled at?
- [22:29]
C
Well, the reason why I'm saying, like, don't yell at me is like, I know. This is. People are gonna read this and think, no. And we actually did this for the book review book club, and it was pretty divided. People were like, I didn't get it. I did not love it. It was. It was too much.
- [22:45]
A
I see.
- [22:46]
C
And so I feel like it will be a divisive one, but I feel like, give it a chance. Give it a. It is a great book. Capital G. Great. So that's. We Do Not Part by Hong Gong is. How you say her name?
- [22:58]
A
Hong Kong. Okay.
- [23:00]
B
That's vibes over plot, it sounds like, right?
- [23:02]
C
Hell, yeah.
- [23:07]
A
That's the MJ way.
- [23:08]
C
That's the MJ again. Stuck at a bus stop in the snow for however long. You're not sure if it's real or if it's purgatory. That's that good. Ish. Let me tell you.
- [23:17]
A
That's that vibe. That's that vibes on vibes. Reminds me of vibes divided by vibes times vibes.
- [23:23]
B
Yeah, it's just like, weird grief summer all over again.
- [23:26]
A
Yeah.
- [23:27]
C
That's how I like it.
- [23:28]
A
Oh, my God. I'm so. I'm so pressed right now.
- [23:32]
B
Yeah. What are you gonna do, Tracy?
- [23:33]
A
What are you gonna do? Okay, I'm gonna save, I think, my overall book. My, like, best, best book for the end. Because I think that I might be able to convince you guys to agree with me on it. But if not, I'm gonna move things around. Okay.
- [23:49]
B
I'm gonna watch gymnastics.
- [23:51]
A
This one. I'm so piled this year. Like, this is. This year has been impossible. Okay, I am going to go with my favorite read of the year. I do not think this is the best written book, but it is the most fun I had reading all year. It is the Gods of New York by Jonathan Mailer. This is a book about New York City from 1986 through 1990. It starts January 1, 1986, and goes all the way through to January 1, 1990. The reason, it's obviously not just because it's the first day of the year, but also because in New York City, the mayor is inaugurated on the 1st of January. Not on the 20th of January. So it starts with the beginning of Ed Koch's final term in office. And it is all about the dudes in New York. There are some ladies in it, but mostly it's about these guys. Okay, it's Ed Koch, it's Donald Trump, it's Rudy Giuliani, it is Spike Lee, it is Larry Kramer. It is all of the men and the crazy stories and the trials and the cases and the scandals that make up 1986 to 1990 New York. So we're talking Central Park 5. We're talking do the right thing. We're talking about Trump's basic, like, rise to Trump dumb. And one of the things I love about this book is that it is written. I think we talk a lot, especially in fiction, about, like, form, meeting, content, right? Or like that the book should feel like the thing that it's talking about. And this book feels like New York Post magazine. Like, it's gossipy, it's so salacious, it's so juicy. He clear? The author clearly has a point of view about all of these people, but not so much that he's telling you, but he's, like, making you agree with him because, like, the adjectives are just so. It's like a magazine. It's so great. It's so fun. I left the book being like, trump is a one trick fucking pony. He's been doing the same shit. And here's what I'll say. The reason we have President Trump is because, unfortunately, we never got mayor of New York City. Trump, because that's the job he always wanted. This whole thing is him having beef with ed Koch for 40 years later. Okay? That's why he likes Mom Donnie. That's why he's flirting with Mom Donnie in the Oval Office, because he's like, this guy's the mayor of New York, and that's the coolest job there ever will be. Like, he loves Eric Adams. He loved Giuliani. He's just hot for the mayor of New York, period. It doesn't matter. Could have been Obama if Obama had been mayor of New York. We don't ever get President Trump. Like, it's just such a fun book. It's so great. And it's a lot of history. Like, there's so many things that come up in this book that I'm excited. Like next year, Heather and Thompson has a book about. About Bernie Goetz, the guy who shot the four kids on the subway, which happened. I think it happened right before this book starts, but it's brought up in this book. There's a book about Michael Stewart that also happened right before that comes out, that is brought up in this book. There's just so many pieces of like New York City history that are in this book that are fantastic. So I love this book. I had the best time. It's the. My favorite book. Even if I think other books were better.
- [27:07]
C
Can I ask why you hedged at the start? You said it's your favorite but not the best. What is the. What's.
- [27:12]
A
Because I know that the writing isn't like, great. I know that like, he could have done more things, he could have done different. Like there's. There was room for improvement, like on a book level. But my enjoyment of it, like I listened to the audiobook and was just like, what's a chore I can do so I could keep listening. Like, I love it here. And like, usually with an audiobook, I'll sort of zone in and zone out at parts. And if I caught myself zoning out at all, I'd like go back 30 minutes and like re. Listen to a whole section. Like, I just. I had such a great time with it. So I don't know, I thought it was great and maybe like, I think it does exactly what it set out to do. But there were some like, little bits that I was like, I don't know.
- [27:49]
C
I'm writing this down. That sounds great. The. It's written like a New York Post. I was like, sold. Count me.
- [27:57]
A
I mean, I don't read the New York Post. I don't know how it's written, but it just feels like the New York Post would be writing like this. Okay, Greta, book number two.
- [28:07]
B
The pressure is so wild.
- [28:10]
A
I know. This year feels different.
- [28:11]
B
Does feel different. I'm gonna do one that I believe is on your list, Tracy.
- [28:16]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [28:17]
B
And it's Original Sins by Evely Ewing.
- [28:19]
A
Yes. Okay. That is on my list. I could cross it off. Eve, I fucking love you. Go ahead.
- [28:27]
B
All of Eve.
- [28:28]
A
I love Eve.
- [28:29]
B
Mj, have you read this one?
- [28:30]
C
I haven't.
- [28:31]
A
Okay.
- [28:31]
B
It's nonfiction. I should have written.
- [28:34]
A
You have two non fiction books on your list.
- [28:36]
B
I know.
- [28:38]
A
Wow. I'm so.
- [28:38]
B
What am I? What's the third one gonna be? We'll see.
- [28:42]
A
Stay tuned.
- [28:43]
B
We're all gonna find out together. Original Sins is phenomenal Eval. Ewing is just like the best baddest bitch around. Truly Chicagoan scholar. Amazing nerd. She. Original Sins. Let's see. Do you remember the exact subtitle of this book? It's like the the miseducation.
- [29:04]
A
The miseducation of black and native children and the construction of American racism.
- [29:09]
B
Yeah, there it is. This book is phenomenal. I mean, it's. I think now more than ever, is a very good time for folks to educate themselves as much as absolutely possible about the racist origins of the United States. I think it's the. The lens of education is a very interesting lens to explore a lot of aspects of racism that I think a lot of people are super familiar with these days. But I think it's very important. I mean, especially to think about, like, what we're putting children through and what we. What the United States has been super okay with putting children through for a very long time and is something that we all desperately should know about. I kind of put off reading this one for a while because I was worried it would just, like, completely shatter and devastate me. But I think Eve does a really beautiful job of exploring things and also making sure Joy is still a priority in her writing. I think especially the conclusion of this book really beautifully looks forward in a way that is ultimately still deeply hopeful, which I think is also something we could all use more of right now.
- [30:20]
A
Yeah.
- [30:21]
B
So, yeah, I think it's an essential read.
- [30:24]
A
Yeah, I agree.
- [30:25]
C
Can I jump in with two recommendations about just like Eve in general? I'm such a big. I haven't read this book, but I'm a big fan of her, and she does, like, everything. She is a sociologist, a great writer. She writes a poet. She writes comics, I think.
- [30:40]
B
Yep.
- [30:41]
A
She now owns a bookstore in Chicago.
- [30:43]
B
It's just the best.
- [30:45]
C
So my two recommendations are, One, she was on an episode of the podcast Normal Gossip. Talking about. That episode is so funny about a crazy, like, Facebook dog park scam. It is so good. And she.
- [30:59]
A
I listened to that one. Yes, yes, yes.
- [31:02]
C
That episode is so good because of just how, like, vibrant Eve is.
- [31:07]
A
Yes.
- [31:07]
C
And then the other is that she wrote a poem for the 1619 Project when it came out, and it's about Phillis Wheatley, who is one of those figures who just, like, is such an inspiration to me. And I read about Phillis Wheatley when I was a kid, and there are lines from that poem. So Phillis Wheatley is the first black person in the States to have published a book, and she was born enslaved, and her life story is incredible. But she says in that. That poem something like having to take these literacy tests. And she's like, if I can prove I know Ovid, may I have my children back? Or something like that there are these lines that are just like, so searing. So just love Eve and everything that she does is what I'm trying to say.
- [31:54]
A
May I also recommend Eve's episode of the Stacks? I don't know why you did it.
- [31:58]
C
That was weird.
- [31:58]
A
But okay. Thanks, mj. Big fan. No, Eve is amazing. But I want to just say one more thing about original sins, because I think people are intimidated by it. And like, Greta, you were saying because you were worried it was going to be, like, too depressing. And I was a little intimidated by it because I was worried it was going to be, like, too smart for me. Because I know Eve is so smart. But the book is so incredibly accessible. The amount of history that she distills for like a regular degular reader, it gives you a sense of how smart she is. Like, that she can understand these complicated things so well and then write it for just like a normal person. Like, I would say that a high school kid would feel comfortable reading. Like, if you were a teenager who like, like to read.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah.
- [32:47]
A
And, you know, wasn't like reading on chat, GTP or what, GPT, whatever the fuck it is. Like, you could. Like, it is accessible enough that, like, people can read it. Yeah. And so it makes it a much more enjoyable read because you're not being like, what does this sentence mean? No, she's literally like, then they did this. But like, in beautiful Eve writing. And the last thing I want to say about Eve, since we all are obsessed with her, is that she is your favorite writer's favorite writer.
- [33:14]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [33:15]
A
Everyone we love here at the stacks, they love Eve. Like, it's just Eve's the best. Like, even people who don't even write are like, oh, I met Eve Ewing. She's the greatest. And I feel this way.
- [33:26]
B
Ewing. Yes.
- [33:27]
A
Oh, my God, I'm so glad you picked this because this was in my top. And I was like, how am I going to finagle this whole thing? Okay. Yes.
- [33:34]
B
Well, the other thing I want to say about it is that it reminded me a lot, Tracy, of. I believe it was a book you recommended last year, Poverty by America.
- [33:42]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [33:44]
B
And I. I don't think I recommend.
- [33:45]
A
I don't think that made the top. But I did like that book.
- [33:48]
B
I thought you recommended it to me. Was it.
- [33:50]
A
Oh, I probably recommended you. I just mean on this episode.
- [33:53]
B
It came up in this episode. But anyway, probably did. I think they remind me of each other because they're both deeply accessible and they're both sort of the non fiction genre of like, the system isn't broken broken. It's working exactly the way it was designed to.
- [34:07]
A
Yeah.
- [34:08]
B
And I think, especially right now, the more we can equip ourselves with that knowledge, the better we will be to be able to move forward and help make positive change.
- [34:22]
A
I love it. I love it. We love Eve. Original sins. All right, mj, Tough act to follow. See what you got.
- [34:29]
C
Well, I think this is. Oh, my God.
- [34:32]
B
You're hitting us against each other, Tracy.
- [34:35]
A
This year it's taking on. This is such a 2025 conversation. I feel like the energy is just big 2025 vibes.
- [34:42]
C
Well, I was going to be all like, Pollyanna and be like. Well, that is actually my book recommendation works in tandem with what you just said, Greta, because my next one is There is no Place for Us. Oh, my God.
- [34:54]
A
Yes. Another one from my list.
- [34:56]
C
I thought it might be.
- [34:59]
A
Wait, that one might be the one we could all agree on.
- [35:01]
B
Ooh, I haven't read it.
- [35:02]
A
Ugh. Damn. Well, we're not. I don't think there's a book we've all read this year. Honestly.
- [35:07]
B
No, I think probably not for me.
- [35:08]
C
I was like, I think this might be on Tracy's list. I think it might be on other people's list. But I am not gambling this one. Everyone should read it. It is have. It has a spot in my list similar to what Greta said about, like, the system is not broken. It's working exactly as it's intended. This is about the invisible homelessness crisis, which is specifically the homelessness, the working homeless people who are not frequently counted in census data about homelessness. That's either because they are staying in extended state shelters, they're staying with families, but they do not have a home of their own, even though they are full time employed. And it is focused specifically in Atlanta, and it follows five families. And you're just following them as they enter homelessness and as they try to navigate it. And as you see, there are a variety of reasons why being homeless happens. It could be because of a fire burns down a house, and then they're evicted, or and then they have to move, but then that counts as an eviction so they can't rent again. It could be because the system of housing vouchers is so deep.
- [36:26]
A
Fucking nightmare.
- [36:27]
C
It's a nightmare. And what I love about this book is that it is by focusing so specifically on these families, it provides a microcosm for you to understand the whole system. And you see just like how one small thing can spiral because of the systems that we have in place. I have a quote that I wrote down about specifically, like, housing vouchers and how that's supposed to be like a life raft, but they don't work. And Brian Goldstone writes, he's talking about a woman named Britt who's looking for a home. The problem, she realized, wasn't that her rental applications were getting rejected. It was that there were no places where she could even apply. They, like, there are these housing vouchers that are supposed to say, like, okay, work very hard. Stay on this waiting list. You will get a chance to buy a home or to rent a home. And then because of a variety of reasons, landlords don't want oversight. Because of just housing availability, you can't get a home. And then your time runs out and you get. You lose a spot on that list. I'm going to go. I'm rambling now about the details. What I will say is that this book was challenging and that it is so despairing. I felt so heartbroken for these families. And I think all readers will. Whether you knew about this homelessness crisis or not, just being able to see the intricacies of it is so affecting. And knowing things like the difference that will between a family losing their home and being broken up or being able to continue with their life is $200 in some instances. Like, the stakes are so high and the system is so broken and effed. It's something that I feel like every person should read. I think it works in tandem with your recommendation, Greta. Also, just like the energy we just had the New York City mayoral election, and it's like the housing crisis here. Affordability like this also taps into that. It is a book that will inspire you. Like, it will teach you a lot. It is so good. It's a book that I think everyone should read.
- [38:42]
A
It's so good. Brian was on the podcast. I recommend that Episode. Obviously, this was one of my most anticipated books for 2025. I think it lives up to what I hoped that it would do. I think one of the other things different from Eve's book and what I sort of like about both of these books is that they do similar things, talking about the systems and how they're designed. And Eve's book is like, a much more like, academic approach to that. Like, it's like she's presenting the history. She's laying it out to you. There's narrative elements, but Brian's book is much more journalistic. It's narrative you're embedding with these families. He's doing the Matthew Desmond thing, which of course, I love. Obviously, this book is a perfect pairing for Invisible Child or Evicted. And while I think the book is, like, extremely bleak and sad and just, like, I remember reading it in the bathtub and, like, feeling like my heart rate was going up because I was getting so frustrated, it is. It's such an important read. Every year I do my, like list for she Reads. And this is the book that I said that I would want every high school kid to read because it also shatters this myth of, like, if you work hard, you'll be fine. Like, it's just like, oh, no, babe. These people all have full time jobs. Like, that's the important thing. There's not a single county in the United States where if you work a full time, if you work for minimum wage, full time, that you can afford housing.
- [40:01]
C
That's a crime.
- [40:03]
A
That's the craziest thing ever. It's infuriating. Yeah. So this book is full of gems just like that. Also, this book takes on private equity. Blackstone, the number one landlord in the country. Holy shit.
- [40:16]
B
I didn't know that.
- [40:17]
A
Yep, Blackstone. All up in those extended stays, babe. And not the only one. I just personally have a vendetta against Blackstone for personal reasons.
- [40:25]
C
My tip for readers with this one, too, is pay attention to where you are and what you're surrounded by as you're reading this. Because, for instance, I read this while I was waiting for a book event to start. So I was outside in, like, South Street Seaport in New York City. There is so much casual wealth around. And so I was so aware that, like, while I'm just surrounded by, like, money, money, money, there are people elsewhere who, again, for, like, literally $200 for your party to go out and have a drink. That is the difference between, like, their family losing everything or not. And just like that. That awareness, I think, is very important as you go read this book.
- [41:07]
A
Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We're halfway through the list. We'll be back. All right, we're back. It's my turn now. Now I'm feeling freed up to do something that I was not planning to do at all. I'm thinking I'm going to get weird right now.
- [41:27]
B
Yes, let's get weird.
- [41:29]
A
I think I'm going to get weird. Like, I was not planning to do this. I don't even. I. I don't. I don't even have the author's last name written down. Hold on.
- [41:36]
C
Well, you search Again, the vibe shift. It was like, weird year. Weird year. Now we're back from break and I feel free.
- [41:42]
A
I feel free. I feel free. So the reason that I have this shift is because I was worried you all were gonna do all fiction and so that I was gonna bear the responsibility of making sure that some of my nonfiction faves made the list. And now I'm feeling like. I don't know, I'm feeling like I'm gonna do it. Okay. I. This is the weirdest. I. This was. This was the last book I added to my 11 book list. But I'm doing it. My number two pick is Hunchback by Sao Ichikawa.
- [42:09]
C
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [42:11]
A
I'm getting weird. It's a little novella e thing. It's like 90 pages. It is about. I. I didn't even prepare, so I'm. This is off the cuff. It's about a woman who is. Has a severe physical disability. The new year brings so many opportunities for transformation. I'll never forget the day I decided to transform my love of reading into this very podcast. I had the drive, I had the idea. All that was left was taking that crucial first step towards my dream. Once I finally did, there was no looking back. It's time for you to tap into that new year, fresh start energy and transform your passions into your profession. So take your first step with Shopify. Shopify is the key to starting that business you've always dreamed of. This all in one e commerce platform has everything you need to sell online and in person, including hundreds of templates to help you build your online store, help you write headlines and product descriptions, and built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social campaigns that reach even more customers. Shopify is also built to grow your business, allowing you to handle more orders and expand to new markets all from the same dashboard. Millions of entrepreneurs have already taken the leap. Why not make this the year you do too in 2026? Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com thestacks. Go to shopify.com thestacks that's shopify.com thestacks here, your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Okay, y', all, the holidays are here. They are fast approaching. It is gift giving season with this podcast. I get to give you guys the gift of exclusive interviews with authors, a spicy little book club, juicy behind the scenes gossip every single week, and the best gift I could ask for in return this year is your support on Patreon and Substack. And lucky for you, for the rest of December I have activated annual memberships on Patreon that are only $50 for new members. That is less than $5 a month to get access to even more amazing perks and a fun bookish community. Oh, and you Substack people, I didn't forget about you. There is a 10 off substack sale going on right now. Both of these sales are going to last until the end of the year. That is December 31st. It's over. I will not be extending. Okay, so here's what you get on Patreon. You can join the Stacks Pack community. We've got book club meetups. We've got a private discord. We've got a year long reading challenge right now. You can also vote in our Stacky Awards. You can get the Mega reading challenge for 2026 and you can get my reading tracker over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked, where I keep the book conversations going. I'm giving you a healthy dose of pop culture. Hot takes a lot of them. And both of those places for the paid tier, you are getting a monthly bonus episode. Now if you don't have the money for either of these things, I get it, that's fine. Guess what? There are free tiers for both of those. So go subscribe there. You still got a bunch of fun content both on Patreon and Substack and you're still supporting my work. Here's the thing I want to tell you while we're in this gift giving moment, guess what? You can give a gift subscription to Unstacked and or the Stacks Pack to your bookish loved ones. I even have little printable gift card PDFs that you can give them if you like to hand out a little tangible item. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers, get back into reading. Just love the podcast. You want to support the work that I do, want to support my team. Come hang out with me on Patreon or Substack or both. You can find me on patreon@patreon.com the stacks and on substackracythomas.substack.com obviously links for both are in the show notes. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the new year is almost here. Which means it's probably, probably time to start thinking about those goals and resolutions. And if one of yours is to make More time for writing. I sort of have some good news for you. There's a totally free writing challenge happening in January. It's called Jan, your story, and your mission is to write 500 words every single day in January. Jan, your story is hosted by a new community called Memoir Nation, which was founded by Grant Faulkner, who's the former executive director at nanowrimo, and and Brooke Warner, publisher of she Writes Press. With this challenge, you're invited to join hundreds of other writers to start your 2026 strong. Plus, you can keep that energy going all year long with the support of the Memoir Nation community. The best part, if you complete the challenge, you'll have written 15,000 words before the year has even really started, which is like, hello, talk about getting a head start on your goals. But your first challenge is to go and sign up. So to join, you need to head over to memoirnation.com you're going to hit the community button at the top. You're going to create an account, and then, voila, you're in. Once you are, go to the January story page. For more details about the challenge, check out memoirnation.com to get started. Have fun, and good luck. You've got this congenital muscle disorder. She spends her time in her room, mostly in her care center. She's a student, she's rich. She's got a lot of thoughts, and her thoughts are funny, dark. She's obsessed with the idea of herself having money and having power and having these physical limitations, but having this mind that is active and there's these power. I don't want to say a lot because I don't want to give anything away where the book goes. I love this book. I, as you all know, I love an unlikable woman, and I love it even more when the unlikable woman is paired with other sort of factors, whether it's because she's black, whether it's because she's disabled, whether it's because she's queer. I love when we get these characters of, like, quote, unquote, unlikable people who are doing things. It's like, why would you ever do that? I'm like, yeah, bitch, do it. And our lead in this book, Shaka, she's doing it. She is nothing like the way that people want to present disabled people in stories. She is. She's not like, pure of heart or pure of mind. She is not like, oh, she's so smart. Like, it's so sad. Like, there's no sympathy for her in those ways. And I just loved it. Because it adds a complication to the book. But also, I just. The choices are so unhinged. I love it. I love it.
- [48:51]
C
Tracy, one thing that I want to add to this is that this book is also, like, a deeply horny book.
- [48:58]
A
Oh, it's so horny. Oh, yeah. It's so horny. Well, I didn't want to give anything away. There's sex, lots of sex.
- [49:03]
C
But it opens with this, like, crazy sex scene.
- [49:05]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [49:06]
C
Of, like, that's how it opens. And then you're right. I don't think this is, like, a spoiler. Like, you've realized that this is something that you. She is writing, like, the main character, and she is so. I don't want to say scheming, even though she does have a lot of schemes to get what she wants. But she's so driven. She's so driven. And it's about, like, yeah. Power and ability and disability for a variety of reasons. Whether that's physical, monetary, all this stuff. It's so good. I'm surprised that this is on your list. Tracy.
- [49:36]
A
I told you I was doing a curveball. I really loved this book. I haven't talked about it a lot, and because you two picked books that I've talked about loving so much, I feel like I can throw a curve ball at. If you all had picked books I hadn't talked about, I would have felt more compelled to put these books that, like, I have championed all year. But I feel like this is a weird year for me also, in that usually there's a book that I feel like I've invented, like, that I've been talking about so much that everyone, like, associates with me. We talked about this in the past. I don't feel like I invented any books this year, so I feel a freedom that I don't have to. And you guys, again, picked two of my absolute faves that I've screamed about had on the show. Like, so I just felt like, why not get weird? I feel so free now. I feel great. I know what my third book is gonna be.
- [50:18]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [50:18]
A
And now the real question is, what's the 10th book? And that's gonna be fun.
- [50:22]
B
Okay.
- [50:23]
A
All right.
- [50:23]
B
So. Okay. But wait, Tracy, Is it. Is it plotty?
- [50:27]
A
Yeah.
- [50:28]
C
Okay.
- [50:28]
A
There's some plot. There's also vibes. There's plot.
- [50:31]
B
It sounds vibey, but it's.
- [50:32]
A
Well, but stuff. Okay, so what I've decided is this is something I've been thinking about this year. It came up during Frankenstein, actually. The Stacks pack asked me Why? I liked Frankenstein because it's sort of a vibey book. And what I realized is I don't have a problem with vibes. I just need there to be high stakes, and I need there to be compelling scenes. So you can vibe out for 30 pages if you want. This book's only like, 90 pages, so it's also very short. But you could vibe out for a while, like Mary Shelley does. But then it's like Victor and the creature are going to meet and they're going to talk, and, babe, those are stakes through the roof. And, yeah, there's a fight, you know? So, like, for me, this book has scenes like that. And because it's so short, a lot of the sort of musings, they're just a few pages. If it was, like, if this book was 400 pages, I probably wouldn't have liked it, but because it's so tight.
- [51:19]
C
And so quick, and that's the skill of this book. How do you get all of those big things that she is thinking about and ripping on?
- [51:26]
A
Yeah.
- [51:26]
C
And it's by being there. Like, it's vibey in that there's a strong thematic core, and it feels like you're, like, kind of looking. All of his scenes are looking at things from different angles. But to get that down into as slim a book as this is and have it be so powerful is so challenging.
- [51:44]
A
Yeah. So I would say it's a perfect balance for me between vibes and plot. Like, stuff happens. There's movement. I don't know. Not plot. I don't know. Stuff happens. Great.
- [51:54]
B
I'm adding it to the list.
- [51:56]
A
Yes. Okay. Greta, your third pick.
- [51:59]
B
Okay. So going by the ethos, again, related to good things around. Just, like, what made me happy this year, a book I would like to shout out, but that is not my third pick, if that's fair.
- [52:13]
A
Go ahead. Who cares? We're all going to bed. Whatever.
- [52:19]
B
It's the Rose. Rosefield by Philip Pullman. This is the third book in a second trilogy, which means you have to have read, like, literally 2500 pages of other books. What's called.
- [52:28]
A
I've never even heard this.
- [52:29]
B
I know, right? It's called the Rose Field. You have heard of Philip. The first book in the first trilogy, which is the Golden Compass. This is the His Dark Materials trilogy.
- [52:37]
A
Got it. Okay.
- [52:37]
B
Philip has written another trilogy that, like, takes place. It sort of surrounds what happened in that original series.
- [52:45]
A
Okay.
- [52:46]
B
And it's just great. And I just love them. I first got into the Golden Compass when I was probably, like, 10. And so I think part of it is.
- [52:52]
A
Okay, what's your pick, Greta?
- [52:55]
B
Okay, my pick. I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
- [52:58]
A
Shout out to that book.
- [52:59]
B
What's your pick? It off. My pick is Sinkhole by Lena Crow, Sinkhole and Other Inexplicable Voids. This is a short story collection. It's weird. One of the readers in my Gretagram book club called it Capital W weird, which I loved. It kind of reminds me of Kelly Link a little bit. I don't know if either of you have read her. She's sort of like one of those, like, writers. Writers. I feel like it's a little less creepy than Kelly, but it still has this, like, vibrance and strangeness. Like, one of the short stories is Tracy. Well, I think you might both love this, actually. There's like, a surprise twin, like, just sort of appears.
- [53:39]
A
Oh.
- [53:40]
B
Like this woman thinks she had one baby, but then all of a sudden there's two babies. And, like, no one really questions it. And she thinks she's probably kind of insane, but she just sort of has to go with it because now there's two babies. And the short stories are interconnected, which is delightful. And there's some, like, climate fiction elements. And, like, it's just strange and great. It's like sort of that color palette that kind of reminds me of Rufy Thorpe or Kevin Wilson, where it's just like, you just kind of go along with it and it's good and interesting and strange. So that is my final pick. I love this pick by Lena Crowe. I think you would like this one.
- [54:18]
A
The COVID looks great. It looks like the unveiling cover, but, like. Oh, yeah. Brighter.
- [54:23]
B
Yes.
- [54:24]
A
There you go. Okay. I don't have any follow ups. I'm excited. I don't know anything. I don't even know where to go from.
- [54:30]
B
It's great. I mean, again, there's like four. There's also the book about the woman who's sexually attracted to airplanes, which is.
- [54:36]
A
Like, oh, sky Daddy, you know? Okay, stop trying to add.
- [54:39]
B
Anyway.
- [54:40]
A
Okay. That wasn't an official pick, people. That's just Greta trying to do the most. We're gonna release our full list for all of you to see just because it feels like we need to. I'll probably just put it in on socials somewhere.
- [54:54]
B
Sense my desperation.
- [54:56]
A
Yeah, it's fine. You're fine. You're doing great, sweetie. Okay, mj, we could make it a.
- [55:01]
B
Whole thing on my Instagram, on my sub stack if you want. You could just. Everybody could write it up.
- [55:06]
C
Can I do a shout out pick then?
- [55:09]
A
Fine.
- [55:10]
C
Thank you. Sorry, Greta, got it's.
- [55:13]
A
Keep it short.
- [55:13]
C
Okay, I'm just gonna say a title. I'm gonna say a title and author. It's Minor Black Figures by Brandon Taylor. Love that book. Go read it. Cerebral, dense, smart. I feel like it's him, like evolving. Read it. But my third pick is if I can pick it up.
- [55:29]
B
I love that you brought physical copies, by the way.
- [55:31]
A
Ooh.
- [55:33]
C
Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Wambugu. I've mentioned Toni Morrison before with we do not Part. I'm mentioning her again because Lonely Crowds is like the modern sula. It follows the lifelong friendship of. You meet them at birth, two girls in Rhode Island. There is the one, very mannered, kind of shy girl. And then she becomes fast friends with this kind of glamorous rebel from a dark and dangerous family. She's living with her aunt after both of her. Her parents are killed or die by suicide. Their names are Ruth and Marie. Or is it Maria? Sorry, now I'm forgetting. It's Ruth who is the mannered one, and Maria who's the rebel. And you just follow them over the course of their lives as their friendship kind of like ebbs and flows. They're both artists, they go to college together, they have some romantic tension and it's great. It's so. It's like just like dark gem of a book. And I say that because the book is. Well, it's about friendship. It's also kind of bleak, but it's just like, it reminded me of just like a pristine New Yorker short story. Positive, positive. That's a positive thing in that, like, in that those sentences are crisp, the writing is so sharp, and you're just pulled into the psychology of this kind of life altering, world changing friendship. And I couldn't get enough. The writing's great, the friendship dynamic is great. It's a book that I want more people to read, which is why I have it here. This is a debut as well. And you will read it and look at those sentences and be like, how is this a first novel? I do not get it. So that's Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Rambugu.
- [57:36]
A
I keep seeing it places. Now I'm more intrigued. Okay, I don't know how to do this.
- [57:43]
B
What do we do?
- [57:44]
A
Yeah, well, no, I still have one more pick.
- [57:46]
B
Oh, yes, that's right.
- [57:46]
A
But my. My question is, do I do the pick? Should I do the pick? That I don't think you guys are gonna pick and then fight like Hell, to get my 10th book to get my other pick on.
- [57:56]
C
Yes. That's the process.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah.
- [57:58]
C
That's what we had to do.
- [57:59]
B
I think we should.
- [58:01]
A
I know, but I'm worried that if I don't. What I'm worried about is if I don't pick this book and it doesn't make it on, I will have deep regrets because it is my favorite. One of my favorite books.
- [58:10]
B
Let me tell you about the regret I feel over not mentioning that.
- [58:13]
A
Okay. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say the book I want to say. And then our 10th book is just gonna be a free for all. Great. My third pick is one day everyone will have always been against this. Now, I think I probably could have had a good case for getting that to be all of our 10th pick, because I do think it is the most urgent book of the year. I think it is the book that speaks to 2025, the best as far as, like, the politics of the moment. I think Omar Ellicott is unflinching in this book in a way that just no one else has been able to be on this topic. This topic being specifically Israel's genocide in Gaza and in Palestine, but broadly the lie of the West. Right? This book is about. We've been sold this bill of goods. It encompasses Eve's book and encompasses Brian's book and encompasses sort of everything we're talking about right now. And he talks about growing up and idolizing the west and then realizing that all the things he thought he was supposed to want are fucking bullshit. And he does it beautifully in these essays. They are so sharp. They are so searing, and again, unflinching. And also just, like, I felt they were important to read. Like, as I was reading them, I was like, right, this is how you have this argument. This is how you have this conversation. And again, shameless plug. Because it's my podcast. Omar came on the show. It's one of my favorite episodes of the year. Hearing him talk about the book. Not. Not simply because I loved the book, but because what comes across on the page, sort of his unflinching moral compass does not come across in the conversation. He actually seems to have a lot of, like, doubt and not anxiety or, like, fear. For I think he fully believes what he's saying, but I think he does have doubt about, like, did I say it well enough? Did I say it right? Was I able to do the. Like, will this. This book that he thinks is doing and saying something, will it last? Will it have an impact? And I think that. That pairing, the hearing him talk about it and reading the book is like a really interesting pairing. And I don't feel like often on this show, the authors thinking feels as far removed from the actual book itself, if that makes sense. But I love this book. It won the National Book Award. I believe I had that. And if there is any book that I feel that I invented this year, it's certainly this one. Like, I. This is the book I have been screaming about the most. This is the most obvious pick on the list for me this year. And I think as far as like a book of 2025, this is a book of this year.
- [60:45]
C
The thing that stands out to me about this book is what it was able to achieve since, like the war in Gaza. There have been. There's been so much discourse and dialogue un all sides that the conversation feels crowded. Right. And this book was able to cut through all of that. And the word that comes to mind is just clarity. There's such a clarity in this book and the fact that it was able to. Yeah. Rise out of the muck of our increasingly deranged conversations, especially online, and present this, like, searing, urgent argument that people seem to actually be able to hear your conversation with him and. And hearing him talk about his fear of, did he say the right thing? Will it actually land? Will it achieve? What he set out to do was so clarifying. To repeat that word, clarity was so helpful to know that he was thinking that intentionally about making sure that not only was he saying what needed to be said, but saying it so that it could be heard. That I think is so impressive and takes on a level of intention and care that I think radiates the. Those pages.
- [61:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [61:54]
B
That's amazing.
- [61:55]
A
Okay, now the Royal Rumble. Let the ro. Let the. What is it? Let the Wild rumpus begin. Yeah. Okay, who are your contenders for this 10th pick? I don't think we've all read the same book. It doesn't seem like all three of us have read any of the same book.
- [62:12]
B
I don't think.
- [62:13]
A
So here's my two contenders. At the moment, my top two would be Black and Blues by Imani Perry and Things in Nature Merely Grow by Yiyian Li. Those are my two sort of best books of the year. There's other things I could enter, but those are the two that I have.
- [62:33]
B
So, Yeon Li, that's fiction, right?
- [62:35]
C
No, memoir.
- [62:36]
A
It's a memoir. Okay.
- [62:38]
C
One of your three memoirs. The. The genre that's over.
- [62:42]
A
Yes. So this is a transcendent memoir for Me, I.
- [62:46]
C
So my 2. One was Baldwin a Love Story, the Nicholas Bog Baldwin biography. The other book, that was one of my books of the year. But I was like, there is no way in hell I can recommend this on this podcast. Tracy will actually murder me. Was angel down the one sentence. Long boy story.
- [63:04]
A
I thought you were gonna have that on here. I didn't care.
- [63:06]
C
Oh, I do love that quite a lot. I love these other books too.
- [63:09]
B
That's Daniel Krauss, right?
- [63:10]
C
Daniel Krause. It's so good. I did love. Things in Nature Merely Grow. I will not fight about that one. I think that book, that memoir is devastating. Devastating. So good.
- [63:24]
A
Brett hasn't read it.
- [63:25]
B
I didn't.
- [63:25]
A
What would. What would be your entries into this?
- [63:28]
B
I mean, I got nothing. I don't think there's.
- [63:30]
A
Yeah, there's.
- [63:31]
B
There's no original. I kind of thought original sins might do it.
- [63:34]
A
Okay, so here's our other option. What we could do is I would put. I would co sign original sins or there is no place for us being the 10th pick and allow one of you to. Whoever's book that was, to add another book yourself.
- [63:47]
B
But MJ hasn't read.
- [63:49]
A
Well, none of us have read all of them. So we have to come up with something here.
- [63:53]
C
I kind of like the order that we went. I say let's keep as it is. And we got a new tent. Partly because, like, the jockeying and like the passion of like, I wasn't sure if it was going to be the 10th, but I needed it. I kind of like that. So I say this.
- [64:08]
A
Okay.
- [64:08]
B
No, no.
- [64:08]
A
I mean, we're going to leave all this in. We're probably going to keep this part in too, to be honest.
- [64:12]
C
Perfect. Perfect.
- [64:14]
B
Okay.
- [64:15]
A
So. So, Greta, you don't have another book that you want to enter into this conversation?
- [64:20]
B
I mean, there are other books that I would shout out, but none of them, I think are like the best book of the year. I think it's probably the Omar Alad and I just need to read it. I'm just like behind the times.
- [64:31]
C
What are you feeling, Tracy?
- [64:33]
A
I don't know. I mean, I'm feeling like it should be Things in Nature Merely Grow since we both read it and you really liked it too.
- [64:39]
B
Okay.
- [64:41]
A
That's my instinct. Because you didn't have a strong reaction to black and blues. I love black and blues. But you did have a strong reaction to things in nature merely grow. I didn't read the Daniel Krause for obvious. Yeah, I think you would hate that one sentence.
- [64:53]
C
Horror novel, it's so good. But I do think that you would hate it.
- [64:58]
A
I know that you, like, love it, and I know you think it's good, and I know I hate that book. And congratulations to him because obviously you put up a good fight at the New York Times because it did make your guys's top 10, and Omar Ellicott did not. Devastating.
- [65:11]
C
Different genres. Different genres. It's not like one of another.
- [65:16]
A
They're different. Yeah, sure, whatever. My sense is that things in nature merely grow is what I would say. But this is my podcast, so I don't want to bully you guys.
- [65:27]
B
Oh, no, I think you get to, because it's your podcast.
- [65:30]
A
Oh, you think?
- [65:30]
C
I also feel like this.
- [65:32]
B
You've been bullying me this whole fucking time, Tracy.
- [65:37]
A
Oh, you think?
- [65:38]
C
I also feel like you're giving me an invitation from the start. Is Greta. You know what you did? I feel like this, like, kind of tepidness is so on par with the year, though, right? Like, there are books that I feel like we all love, but it's like, if you get to choose only 10, what are the ones you're going to scream from the mountaintop really, like, hard. This year there are books. I'm like, yeah, this is it. But nothing that I'm, like, elbowing anyone out of the way for. Yeah, I really like.
- [66:11]
A
Well, so that. Yeah, that's this year. To me, it's like in the beginning when the lists first started coming out, like, we got, like, the Kirkus Prize, then you sort of get. Well, first you get the booker, then you get the Kirkus, then you get the National Book Awards, and you start to get best list of the year. And I started to have this whole thing of, like, did I read anything this year? I didn't read any books this year because every list, it would be like a hundred notable books or like, 100 best books. And I'd read, like, 10, and I DNF'd like, nine. And I was like, this is crazy that, like. Because in a normal year, I usually have, like, I. I feel like I have a better sense of what's coming. And every list was different. Like, I don't even. I think, like, the Atlantic's top 10 and the new York Times. I think you guys had one crossover book. Yeah, there's been just one. And obviously last year was an also an outlier because James and Martyr were such juggernauts. But two or three years ago, there were a few books that kept, like, Demon, Copperhead was around. It wasn't on Every list. But, like, you knew people were, like, vibing with that book. Same with, like, south to America by Imani Perry. It wasn't unanimous, but, like, it was just showing up on those lists. And this year, it's just like any book you read, like, anything I.
- [67:26]
C
To the weirdness of the year. I feel like. Yeah, the strangeness, the anomaly of last year was that the books that dominated the conversation came early, not the fact that there were books that dominated the conversation, because there are always books that dominate the conversation. You mentioned Demon, Copperhead. Let's talk about trust. We could talk about intimacies. Lots of songs of W.E.B. du Bois. Going back even further, you have books like Nickel Boys. You have, like, Colson Whiteheads. Like, more of Colson Whitehead. Like, Underground Railroad is the other one that I was thinking of. Like, there are always books that dominate the conversation. For me, last year was just strange that they both published so early, and this year feels strange and that it just feels like there's no book that dominates the conversation. Period.
- [68:13]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [68:13]
B
And then it's interesting. Yeah. Between the three of us, like, I feel like normally we. There's more crossover in what we've read, too.
- [68:20]
A
Yeah. Well, I think that's why, because I think everyone has sort of been out searching for the book of the year all year, and, like, nobody's telling me what to read. Usually, Greta, you'll be like, you have to read this. It's amazing. Or, like, someone will say to me, like, have you read this yet? And I'll usually say, no, obviously not. But, like, I'll feel the pressure to read it. That's why I finally read Audition, like, yesterday. Let me just read it.
- [68:42]
B
Yes. We've all three read that.
- [68:43]
A
Oh, we all three. That's the one book we've all three.
- [68:45]
C
Read, which I love.
- [68:45]
B
I think it's the best book of the year. You loved it.
- [68:47]
C
I did love it.
- [68:48]
A
I thought it was fine. Yeah, I thought the writing was amazing. But, like, I. I would not feel comfortable putting it on my top 10. Not that I didn't think it was. Yeah, look, I think it's a good book. I just. I don't know. It didn't do enough for me. But do we have to put it on because it's a book we all read?
- [69:04]
C
I don't.
- [69:04]
A
Is that how.
- [69:05]
B
It just occurred to me, but now that's. No, I don't think so.
- [69:07]
C
But now it's going from, like, yeah, the best books of the year to the book we all read.
- [69:14]
A
Okay. Okay, let's not do that. Let's not do that. Okay? I'm gonna. I'm gonna be the boss of this podcast because that is my job. And I'm gonna say our 10th book is Things in Nature Merely Grow. It's by Yiyun Lee. It is her memoir. She had a child, teenage son, die by suicide, and, like, six years later, her other teenage son died by suicide. This is her memoir to the second son, but about both the sons. It's about grief. And I think what makes this book outstanding and what makes any memoir worth time at this point in my life, for me, is that, yes, it's about the thing that it's about, but really, it's about how we tell stories, how we talk about memory, what it means to render things into time immemorial. Like, what does it mean to render this story right now into book form? She is. She also, like, is calling up Shakespeare. She actually calls up a memoir from our memoir, a monologue from King John by his mother, Constance, and. Or by the mother Constance. And I used to do that monologue in college. And I was like, oh, my God, like, nobody knows this monologue, but it is, like, the reason I used to do it in college is because it is acting like it is, like, grief. It is. She's pulling her hair out of her head. And so I really loved how she was calling into conversation with her other works, other texts. Nature as, like, this force. Like, I just think she's doing interesting things within the form of memoir. And while this book is sad because it's sad, it is not sad in the way you think it's going to be. You're not reading this book. I did not weep as I read this book. I was like, wow, this is like, such a terrible thing that has happened to this woman. But the book is very matter of fact, which I also appreciated. It is not reveling in the emotional like, or, like, wallowing in the emotional realities of this. Like, these things that have happened. It's sort of like these things have happened, and then we keep living and I keep writing because I'm a writer. And nature keeps growing because things in nature merely grow. And, like, let's just talk about how this lives. So that's why I love the book.
- [71:19]
C
Yeah, I agree. And for me, that what stood out was just that spareness. When we think about grief, we think of this, like, flood of feeling and emotion. And I love those books. I love a good grief novel, a grief memoir. This is so different. It's exacting. It's Spare. I don't want to say it's cold because you can tell there's so much love and emotion there. But it's cerebral is what I think it is. It's her talking about how we tell these stories. Yiyeon Lee says that she hates the term grief novel or grief book. And that's not what this is.
- [71:53]
A
But it is.
- [71:53]
C
It is what it is. But like, yeah, but hearing, getting to watch someone think through that, that's what it is. You're watching someone think through laws, not watching someone feel through laws.
- [72:05]
A
Feel laws.
- [72:06]
C
And I love that kind of slant to it.
- [72:08]
B
Wow.
- [72:08]
A
Yeah. Another pairing for this that was on my list as another memoir that I like, but, like, this is not a real one. Is Sad Tiger by Nej Sino. It's memoir in translation from France. And when she was like 7, her stepfather started sexually abusing her and it went on for years. And she's writing in a similar way. She's like, how do I write about this? With authority, but also, like, having been part of this. So, like, how could I ever have authority because I'm so invested in this thing. But she's writing through it and like, thinking about how to write about it as opposed to just writing about it, which again, makes it like, more. I mean, not that like, the job is to make it readable, but it is like, this is not a diary for either of these women. This is their offering into the space, into like, time, like that, that they are offering this in the hopes that they will last. And I think it's like a really. And that's why these memoirs are memoirs that actually stood out to me. Yeah, that's really interesting because every memoir that's like, hey, this happened. I'm like, boo. Dnf. Gotta go.
- [73:11]
B
Well, how much of that too, is like, I feel like often like a bad memoir assigned to me of a bad memoir is like, oh, you didn't go to therapy? You know, it's like you're. You are writing this to process it. Where it sounds like both of are like the next level of that, where it's like, no, I have like, here is the distillation that I have come to because I have processed it.
- [73:32]
A
Right, right. Totally, totally. Okay, we are obviously like, running out of time, but this is a long episode every year and you're welcome and you guys love it, so don't yell at me. Nobody yells at me. Nobody cares. It's Christmas Eve. You guys are listening on Christmas Eve. You don't care. You're probably actually listening like the beginning of January because you had things to do. But whatever, whenever you're listening, it's great and I appreciate you. 2026, I'm so excited for. It is the year of the big name authors returning for their crowns. This, it is gonna. If these books are even solid from these people, we're in for it. Here's a list of people not complete, but just a list of people. Big, big names coming back with books. Tayari Jones, Colson Whitehead, Ann Patchett, Jane Smiley, Jasmine Ward, Patrick Radenkeep, Heather Ann Thompson, George Saunders, Dorothy Roberts, Min Jin Lee. I. There are rumors of other.
- [74:26]
B
Emily Saint John Mandel.
- [74:28]
A
Emily Saint John Mandel. There's some other people that I've been told have books coming, but I don't want to say because I think it might have been told to me in confidence. Oh, Chang Ray Lee has a book coming. We know about.
- [74:38]
B
Maggie o'. Farrell.
- [74:39]
A
Maggie o'. Farrell. Oh, yes, this just came out. It's just, it's just banger. And then, and then there's the follow ups to some exciting newer authors. We've got Chanda Prescott, Weinstein, Disha Philias novels coming. Kimon Felix has another book. Like, it's just, it's like people who are already established great winners, they're all entering the ring at the same time. And my sense is about this. Do you remember in 2020 when everyone was like, we're gonna get all these books because all these writers are writing?
- [75:12]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [75:12]
A
My sense is all the great writers, they took a little time and these are the things that maybe they. Maybe they had another project going in 2019 and then 2020 happened and they were like, this doesn't feel right. And these are the. They're not going to be Covid books, but these to me are the books that have come out of COVID Obviously Coulson is different because he's like writing in this series. But like Tayari Jones, she published in 2018. Haven't heard anything for a while. I'm feeling like, you know, George Sonder, all these people sort of published right before and now we're getting. I don't know. So that's kind of what my. I'm hoping. These are great because it's like they are. I had to write this. I had to sit down and go back to the drawing board.
- [75:57]
C
Yeah, 2026 is going to be so stacked. I'm so excited. Like, my question, though, not to add a nugget of doubt, is that I feel like 2025 had some big Returns that just, for whatever reason, didn't stick around, which I don't think is because of the big books that we got. I feel like there was just something in the water, something in the air. 2025 is a weird year.
- [76:18]
A
Who had big returns this year?
- [76:20]
C
I mean, like, I'm thinking about, like, Jimmy Madden, Ngozi Adichie.
- [76:24]
B
John Irving.
- [76:24]
C
John Irving.
- [76:25]
B
Sorry to interrupt you.
- [76:26]
C
Oh, no, just like, they're. They're people, like, who had content. Torrey Peters. Right. Like, like there were big.
- [76:34]
A
Torrey Peters would go in the other. The promising follow up category to me. And, like, I feel like the big names in 2026 feel way bigger to me. I think Susan Choi would maybe be considered, like, a big name.
- [76:47]
C
Yep. Susan Choi. We had a new Thomas Pynchon. Right. Like, yeah, that's. There were giant novels that came out or giant books that came out this year, but for whatever reason, they just didn't stick. So I'm excited for this slate and I guess this is a plea to everyone listening to this. Read these books. Make these books stick. If you love them.
- [77:03]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [77:04]
C
Make books so back.
- [77:06]
A
Yeah. We need. We need a sticky year. Do it for your favorite online book content creators. Help us help you. Okay. Before we go to 2020, six books you're excited about.
- [77:23]
C
Sure. I have mentioned one already, and that's on Morrison by Namwali Sarpel. I love a book that you mentioned. I was on my list.
- [77:29]
A
Happy to.
- [77:30]
C
Happy to do that.
- [77:31]
A
Thank you.
- [77:31]
C
It's so good. It's so smart. It's one that I. You already started it and I. Yeah.
- [77:36]
A
You've read it. Okay.
- [77:38]
C
Loved it. Loved it. That book is hard. It is like taking a college class. It is so academic. If you love Toni Morrison, though, this is, like, invaluable.
- [77:49]
A
If you love what if you haven't read all of her books, are you okay?
- [77:52]
C
You don't need to read them because they're both deep dives into these books and also great primers on them or primers, I recently learned. So you say that. Great primers on them and then just like fantastic arguments and cultural analysis. Now, Molly Serpell is one of my favorites. She wrote the Alt Drift and the Furrows, both phenomenal books. And this is just a great writer tackling a great writer. So that's one to keep an eye out for 2026 and then also the Tayari Jones. It's a similar.
- [78:27]
A
You already started it.
- [78:28]
C
Yes, I'm about 80. 70%, 80% of the way through. Similar to Lonely crowds. Similar to books like the Vanishing Half. It's about the story.
- [78:38]
A
Don't tell me what it's about. Actually.
- [78:40]
C
Okay.
- [78:40]
A
I don't know anything about it. That would be great.
- [78:41]
B
I would love to not know.
- [78:42]
A
I don't want to know. I don't want to know anything. All I know, I've seen the COVID I have it. I haven't read any copy. Every time I get an email, it just says, like, Kin Tayari Jones. And I just say, yes, please send. But I'm trying not to. I'm going to read it soon so that I don't get spoiled on it.
- [78:54]
C
My lips are sealed. Also, I'm going to squeeze in the third one. George Saunders. Love George Saunders.
- [78:59]
A
I started that.
- [79:00]
C
Yeah. He is my man, George Saunders. Love him so much. And he's back with Vigil.
- [79:07]
A
Okay. And you've read that too?
- [79:09]
C
Yes.
- [79:10]
B
Oh, wow. You're cruising.
- [79:11]
A
I've only read one 2026 book. I'm not going to talk about Tracy.
- [79:14]
C
You were looking back into the past app. You're like, I'm done with 2025. I'm going to classics. I was like, I'm going to 2026.
- [79:21]
A
My reading goal for 2026, my main goal is to read as much 2026 and as far ahead as I possibly to stay ahead.
- [79:29]
B
Wow.
- [79:29]
A
I wanna. I wanna just have my own opinion opinions this year. I want to just. I don't want to be tempered. I'm not going to read as much classics. It probably is going to suck in the long run because it means I'm going to be reading a lot of things that suck before anyone tells me. Don't waste your time. But I just want to. I just want to try it. I want to just try it because I was so far back last year. So that's my big goal. Okay. Greta, do you have two?
- [79:50]
B
I mean, I have like 17. I'm glad you shouted out some of those authors because. Yeah, especially like Ann Patchett, Emily St John Mandel, Tana French. Emily excited about her newest book. I think she's a phenomenal mystery writer. But the two I want to shout out are one that I'm currently reading. It is called Dear Monica Lewinsky. It is by Julia Langbine. And it's a really interesting. Like, I haven't read any actual synopses of it, so I'm just kind of like on a journey. But it's a really interesting exploration of like, sainthood, virginity. Also, like a reckoning of Monica Linsky, essentially. So, like the very, very brief plot is this woman is looking back on a summer that she spent in France where she has, like, a very complicated entanglement with an older professor, and it just happens to be the same summer that the Monica Lewinsky scandal unravels. And in retrospect, she's realizing that she, like, completely underestimated Monica Lewinsky and just kind of thought, like, oh, what a, like, dumb, silly woman to put herself in this position. So she's reconciling her own history along with, like, how I think most of us had that conversation when it was happening. And it's just, like, fun and weird and horny and great. So I'm really enjoying that one. It's also very smart. And then another one I'm really looking forward to is SA Chakraborty's next book. It's called the Tapestry of Fate. This is a follow up to her Adventures of Amina al Sarafi, which is a super fun fantasy novel about, like, a Muslim lady pirate in, I think, the 12th century, which is just, like, such a delightful romp. And so I'm very excited for that too.
- [81:26]
A
Okay, I'm gonna go. I. I can't. You mean, how far can I go into any episode before I say the three magic words? Patrick, Rat and Keith? But Patrick Radden Keefe has a new book coming out called London Calling in April. I have to brag because I got the first, I think, first galley. I got one of the first galleys. I got an email from his team that was literally like, we deleted all the marketing copy. Would you like the book? I know you know what's up. And I posted it on social media, and Patrick saw I tagged him, and he responded. I think you got your book before I did.
- [82:01]
B
Tracy, that's so amazing. So have you.
- [82:04]
A
What you need to know about me is if you're a psychopath and you demand that someone be your online boyfriend who doesn't know you and doesn't care about you, his publicity team will notice and send you free books. So congratulations. This is a roadmap to success. Success. So I haven't started it yet. My plan is to start that. I have one book left to finish for my mega reading challenge this year, and that's the last book I have to read this year. And then I'm gonna start London Calling, hopefully this weekend. So by the time you listen to this, I'll probably already have read it. And then my other book, I already mentioned Fear and Fury by Heather and Thompson about Bernie Getz. So that tie my list. But I'm Gonna say pool house. Mary HK Choi has a book coming out.
- [82:45]
C
Oh.
- [82:46]
A
It's about a mother and daughter. It's about grief. It's her first adult novel. And I love. I've read all three of her young adult, new age, new adult books or whatever. And this one is about like a mother daughter. It's set in Hollywood. You know, I love an LA book because I'm an LA girl. Well, not by birth, but by living. And I just love Mary and I don't know a ton else about it. I didn't. I don't like to know anything about fiction if I can avoid it. And I so. But the COVID is also gorgeous. So Mary's got a book. I think it comes out in June. And you already said on Morrison, so.
- [83:17]
B
Awesome.
- [83:18]
A
Before we go, last thing, Greta, you have a new podcast.
- [83:22]
B
Oh, yeah, I do.
- [83:23]
A
Oh yeah. People are listening. It'll be out in the world because your first episode came out on the 9th December. So tell people about it quickly.
- [83:30]
B
It's called Happy to be Here. The short little tagline, which I thought up after taking a cannabis sleeping pill is it's for recovering perfectionists and the perpetually curious.
- [83:42]
A
My people.
- [83:43]
B
Exactly.
- [83:44]
A
So I'm not recovering. I'm deep in it. You're deep in it.
- [83:47]
B
I'm gonna work on that. Tracy, this is, I mean, for people who are familiar with my old podcast, Nerdette, I think this is gonna feel. You're gonna feel right at home. It's gonna be a lot of book stuff. It's gonna be a lot of fun, interesting conversations. And I'm very excited. In January we're gonna start My so Called Life recaps, which is going to be a blast. So if you're looking for something to watch, maybe for the first time, maybe to revisit in January, My so Called Life. Claire Danes is your gal.
- [84:16]
A
I love this. I love this. We're so excited to have you back on in our ears. Thank you, mj. You guys can find MJ on socials and also at the New York Times. I don't know if you ever heard of it. It's a small paper. They sometimes cover books. They have a podcast. He does their book club podcast. Controversial selection. Yeah, they do have. Every year the top 10 is A. Is a fight for me. Every year I'm like, it's going to be all out war with these people.
- [84:40]
C
I love Tracy's post lists. Read along text like Tracy's like, I'm going to read these books to see. See what's up. Which I. Tracy, I think you said this last year, like, if I'm going to be a hater, I'm going to do the homework.
- [84:53]
B
Yes, for sure. Yes.
- [84:54]
A
And I love being this year's list. I told you already, mj. I. So I've read three of the nonfiction. I don't ever read the fiction. I read three of the nonfiction. But I struggled this year with the list, as you know.
- [85:04]
C
Okay. A. Okay. That's what.
- [85:06]
A
These have Omar Alicante on it. What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do?
- [85:11]
B
Well, what I will say about. I mean, partly this conversation is always such a delight because I don't know about y', all, but I am walking away with, like, at least eight books that I'm super excited to check out.
- [85:21]
C
Same.
- [85:21]
B
Which, you know. And I'm sure that's what's happening with the listeners, too. So that's like, such a joy.
- [85:25]
C
Can I also just pause and appreciate the range of this list? We have a cookbook, we have memoirs. Tracy's the Genre and its Flop Era made it to this list. We have novels, short stories. We have translated literature.
- [85:40]
A
We have two books in translation in two different languages.
- [85:42]
C
Yep. So this is a great list.
- [85:44]
A
This is a really great list. I feel. I feel really great about. There's a lot of non fiction representation, which I was very worried about. I don't know if it's our best list ever, but it's certainly. If you're reading with us, you're having a good time. If you're reading with other people's lists, I can't promise I don't know those people.
- [86:00]
B
Best list ever. But it also wasn't the best year ever. Like, I think we've. No, I think.
- [86:04]
A
Well, I think it's a great list.
- [86:06]
B
Real goodness.
- [86:06]
A
Based on what this is, I think yes. I think, you know, as they say, when life gives you lemonades, I mean, lemons.
- [86:13]
B
I think we had some desiccated lemons.
- [86:16]
A
We had some lemons. We had some lemons. Season lemons and we've turned them into lemon. There's.
- [86:20]
B
There's.
- [86:20]
A
All the books are fine. My question will be in five years, will any of us remember any of the books on this list?
- [86:26]
C
See you in five years?
- [86:28]
A
Yeah, because, like, I think, like, if you go back two or three years, there's a list where I'm just like, no one's talking about any of these books anymore. Obviously last year, I think James is going to stand the test of time. I hope that martyr will, too. But, like, 10 years from now, what will All Fours be? Who knows?
- [86:44]
C
You know, not too much on All Fours. I love that book, I think, but.
- [86:48]
A
I just feel like people already aren't really talking about it anymore. Like, I don't feel like All Fours. All Fours was pretty much in that same pack with the other two, though it did come out later. And I feel like people talk about last year as the year of James and Martyr, but All Fours was on a lot of those lists, including the National Book Awards.
- [87:05]
B
The thing I will say for All Fours is that it's being comped a lot. Like, that is a title I'm seeing come up very much from publicists when they're like. Like, it's the next. It's All Fours meets ball. Which means. I think there is some stickiness.
- [87:17]
A
Yeah, I think. I think there is still now, but I'm curious. In 10 years is all Fours. I didn't read it, so what would I know? But that was also on the New York Times list last year, right? Yeah. Like, I feel like All Fours is weirdly not part of the conversation. I don't know. Sexism. I actually don't think that's what it is, but I. I do. I think the other two books were just, like, beloved by all, and I think All Fours was much more divisive. Anyways, thank you guys for doing this.
- [87:47]
C
This is always, like, the highlight of my year. Thank you so much for having us.
- [87:50]
A
I know I used to mix and match the hosts for the guests for this, and then we struck gold. And now, sorry to everyone else who ever had a dream of being on this. Like, it's just like, I don't fucking care. Also, to be fair, between the three of us, we've read close to 400. Read into close to 400 books this year. Yeah. Or over. Over 320, 25 books. So I feel like this is a good crew. All right, well, I love you guys. Thank you.
- [88:18]
C
Love you.
- [88:18]
B
Thank you.
- [88:19]
C
Happy New Year.
- [88:19]
B
It's always such a pleasure.
- [88:20]
C
Happy holidays. Happy New Year.
- [88:22]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [88:22]
C
Happy reading.
- [88:24]
A
Everybody else, we'll see you in the 20, 26 stacks. All right, y', all, thank you so much for listening, and thank you again, as always, to MJ and Greta for putting up with me and for being a guest on this podcast. Our book club pick for December is Friday Night Lights, A Town, a Team, and a Dream by H.G. bissinger. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 31st, with Joel Anderson. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks pod, on Instagram threads, Tik Tok and now YouTube, and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian D. With production assistance from Sahara Clement, additional support provided by Sheree Marquez and our theme music is from Tagiriges. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
- [89:41]
B
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