B (2:56)

Thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

A (2:59)

I'm so happy to have you. We. So we share a few biographical details that I'm going to tell folks about.

B (3:06)

Yeah.

A (3:07)

First and foremost, we are both from Oakland, California.

B (3:10)

We are.

A (3:11)

And we went to the same high school.

B (3:12)

We did.

A (3:13)

We did.

B (3:14)

Years apart, but.

A (3:15)

Yeah, but like, go Dragons.

B (3:17)

Yes, exactly.

A (3:18)

And I know your sister because she was my grade. I know. Oh, doubt. So those are our biographical details. Everything else, we're a little further apart, but we're gonna get there.

B (3:29)

Yeah.

A (3:30)

Okay. Where I wanna start, where I always like to start with folks, is like, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Obviously you're from Oakland, you went to o'. Dowd, but what's your story with books? Were you a reader? How were, how was, what were you raised in relationship to books? Just sort of a little backstory.

B (3:47)

Yeah, I was a huge reader. I have been a huge reader my whole life. My parents are both in graduate school when I was little, and so I spent. And I, I was an only child for a while, so I spent a lot of time accompanying them to school and was like the little kid in the library in the corner with books. I learned to read when I was like three years old, which apparently infuriated some members of my family because they would read to me and which I would want them to read to and then I would correct them and like, no, you got that wrong. It's not what the book says. And so I have, like, I came to writing relatively late in life, but I have been a huge reader my whole life and have always, always loved books. My family would always tease me because I would always have books at any. Like, I was an only child, but I had a lot of cousins and so my big cousins would always be like, oh, there's Jasmine with her book. But yes, and my parents both love to read too. I was like, my mom and I, I realized later that my mom was like, checking up on the books that I was reading, but did not know that when I was a kid we would just like read the same books. And I thought it was so fun. We had our own little book club and so we were, we were always reading books and she was reading. And so, yeah, I've always loved books my whole life.

A (5:10)

That is so cute. Do you remember what books your parents were reading when you were a kid?

B (5:18)

I mean, except for. So this is the, this is the other thing. Everyone in my family, except for me is a psychologist. And so. Except for, like, my dad was doing his dissertation when I was little. So I do remember a bunch of those books around, but I don't remember any. Oh, actually I do. I remember my mom reading some Toni Morrison. Like, I remember that, but because I just remember the titles and being like, huh, that's weird. But. And then, and she also, she read a lot of cookbooks and like cooking magazines. And so that's also how I, like, loved cooking as a little kid. I would cook with her and stuff. But mostly I just remember, like, all of the books that I had and was reading and the books she got me.

A (6:00)

Okay, Okay. I love that she was reading what you were reading to check up on you and you thought it was a book club.

B (6:06)

That's amazing. Yeah, I was like, my mom likes the same books as me. This is great.

A (6:09)

I have small kids and they're like, just learning how to read. They, they're not, they were not three year old readers. They're. They're six years old and they're just getting there, which is, is fine. But people always ask me like, oh, are you okay with your kids, like, reading this and that? And I'm realizing that I don't know what's in any of these books, so I have no clue. I guess I'm gonna have to start reading the books.

B (6:30)

Well, see, my thing about that, and granted, I don't have children, so maybe if I did, I would have a different perspective. But like, my thing about that is I read a lot of books, way too old for me at a young age, and I just didn't understand what they were talking about. So it just all went over my head, you know, Like, I didn't, I didn't even ask questions because I just didn't understand what that was. And so I just skimmed that part and moved on to the parts that I did. And then years later I reread them and I was like, oh, that's, that's what that was. And so, so I am never that. Like, I don't really think it's a big deal for kids to read stuff that they're too young for because they just won't get it.

A (7:10)

Yeah.

B (7:10)

Or that, like, you know, if I read a scary book, I put it down and be like, this is too scary. I don't want to read it anymore, you know, So I think to a certain extent, you just gotta trust kids and also be able to answer questions.

A (7:24)

That's my instinct, is to be like, let them read it. The only reason I was thinking, like, oh, you might want to know what your kids are reading is because it might be bringing stuff up for them that they don't understand. So you might want to know, like, oh, oh, this is about this or that. But I also have my own reading life, and I'm not really gonna sacrifice my reading time, like, reading about Jonestown or whatever, so that I can read about, like, a little girl going through puberty. Sorry. Happy for her, Hope it turns out great. Yeah, you know, whatever you need.

B (7:53)

Okay.

A (7:53)

But, you know, I. I have to balance my own personal reading life, which is important to me. Okay, you go to Bishop Out High School. You. Then you go to college. You major in history.

B (8:06)

History, yes. For a long time, actually, I was a history and political science double major. And then my second semester, my senior year, I dropped the double major because I had to take two more political science classes. And they were like, for the major, they both had to be classes that I thought were deeply boring. And I was like, I don't want to waste my last semester of college on boring classes.

A (8:27)

Do you remember what the classes were.

B (8:29)

For the major you had to take? What? Like, there were, like, four different categories you had to take, and one was political theory, and one was international relations, and I did political theory. Seemed deeply boring to me. And the international relations topics weren't that interesting. And I was like, I don't know.

A (8:47)

Okay, so you just did history.

B (8:49)

Yeah.

A (8:51)

And then you went to law school.

B (8:53)

I did. In between that, I worked on Capitol Hill, which was very entertaining, but, yes. And then I went to law school, which I had always wanted to be a lawyer. I'd been wanting to be a lawyer my whole life, so.

A (9:03)

And then you were a lawyer, and then I was. For a part of your life.

B (9:06)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (9:07)

And then now this is where you got to help me. You wrote the wedding date. Yes.

B (9:14)

Well, so there was some in between.

A (9:16)

Yes. Yes. Take me there.

B (9:18)

So I did not start writing until sometime in my 30s. I worked at a law firm for a while, and then I worked at Legal Aid. And in both of those jobs, I was, like, working long hours. You know, I didn't have a lot of, like, free time. Right. And then I started a job where I would, like, get home at around 6 o' clock every night. And I was like, what else do I do? Like, what else is there in my life? Other than work. And so I was thinking of, like, hobbies to start or, like, things to learn. And I had just. I'd been out of school just long enough that I kind of realized. I mean, this makes me sound like a nerd. Cause I am. But, like, I missed school. Like, I missed that process of, like, learning new things.

A (10:05)

Right.

B (10:05)

And I was like, well, I've always loved to read. Maybe I would like writing. And that seemed kind of weird and scary to me. But I had some friends who were writers, and I had some very tentative conversations with them about it, which, years later, they were like, oh, that's what we were talking about. Oh, okay. Yeah. But they were very supportive and, like, encouraging. And so I was like, well, let's just. Let's just see. And so I kind of. I started writing. The first book I wrote was not the Wedding Date. I wrote, like. Like, one whole book and then one half of a book that I could never quite figure out where it was going. And then a few years into writing, I started writing the Wedding Day.

A (10:45)

Were you a reader of romance novels before you thought that's what you would write? Like, yes.

B (10:53)

So. So when I first started writing, I wasn't writing romance. I. The first, like, two ish books that I wrote were young adult because I. I had been reading some young adult, but also, like, there wasn't. I read a. A book that I was like, oh, you know, it was set in the Bay Area. And I was like, I would have loved this book when I was that age, but. But it was about white people. And, like, I wish there were more books. You know, when I was growing up, like, there weren't books about teenage black girls. And so I was thinking, like, oh, I'd love to, like, write a book set in the Bay Area about a teenage black girl. And then kind of in between that time, I had been writing on and off. I went through kind of a health crisis. And during that time, I was reading a lot of romance novels. And I realized, like, romance is so helpful when. When times are scary. When times are. When, like, things are overwhelming, partly because even though stressful things can happen in a romance, you go in knowing it's going to be a happy ending. And that was very soothing to me. And so I was reading a whole bunch of romance. And at first I was reading a lot of historical romance, and I loved reading it. I was a history major, so I love historical romance. But I, you know, thought, like, this is so much fun to read, but I don't think I could write One of these, partly just because I didn't think my voice would translate to historical. You know, there were just a bunch of things that just didn't feel like would work for me. And then I read a few contemporary romances and I was like, oh, maybe I did this. And then I had the idea for the wedding date, and so I just kind of dove right in and. Well, no, I had the idea and I kind of thought it through for a while, but I didn't really commit to writing it. And then I kind of got a push from a friend and then dove right into writing.

A (12:46)

Were you surprised by how much people loved the wedding date?

B (12:54)

I didn't really expect that at all. Partly, I think, for a bunch of reasons. I mean, I think because especially right when I was starting, the traditional publishing was not really embracing romances by and about people of color. And so. And, you know, it took me a while to get an agent. It took me a while to get a publishing deal. So I was just sort of like, excited that I got a deal and excited that it was being published. And then, you know, I was very fortunate that my publisher kind of went all in. In pushing it to different places and, you know, sending it out and being behind me. But it has really been kind of the little book that could. Yeah, yeah.

A (13:35)

Because it came out in 2018.

B (13:36)

2018, yeah.

A (13:38)

So that's when I started this podcast. And I remember friend of the show, Renee, who does book girl magic. I remember she read it for her book club and it was everywhere. And this was before I even understood what this show was. I didn't. I didn't read romance. And I was like, I don't read romance. I'm not going to read romance on the show. And I even read the book because I was so pressured. And I was like, I got to at least, like, see what this thing was. And I think at the time, again, I wasn't as plugged into the world of publishing. So, like, I didn't know any of your story. I didn't even know you were from Oakland. Like, I didn't know anything really. And I didn't know it was your debut. And now looking back, I'm just like, wait, how did Jasmine Gill, like. Because you just, like, struck lightning in a bottle. Not that the book is not good, but, like, it was like this moment that just would captured people in a way that when I look back on it, knowing what I know now feels like. And I'm sure knowing what you know now feels like really surprising for a black Woman author for a romance novel, even for the political moment, like, I don't know. So I don't know if you can speak to any of that at all.

B (14:54)

Yeah, I mean, this is the thing, right? As you said, it was my debut. I didn't really know anything. Yeah, I mean, I, it was like.

A (14:59)

Both of our debut eras.

B (15:01)

Like I, I, I did, but I didn't. Like, you don't. Publishing is just, I've described it to other to like now debut authors is like learning a whole new language. You know, I remember being in meetings like the fall before it came out with like my publishing team when they were talking about things and I did not understand a single thing that was going on and was just like writing things down and then afterwards saying to my agent, like, that sounded good, you know, because, because you don't really know. I mean, because you, they're speaking English, but it is not the English that I understand.

A (15:37)

Right. It's so jargony.

B (15:39)

Right. It's all about jargon. And it's all like, it's, you know, talking about things that I don't, I didn't know what the level of like was. This, this sounds good from the way they talk, but who knows if that is actually good? I mean, I think it also helped that I was a little older. Right. And so I was used to like, public speaking or like talking to people or doing interviews. Like, I wasn't scared about any of that. And that helped because they kind of weren't scared to like, connect me. People will put me out there. And I was like, sure, fine. But yeah, I mean, also, it just sort of like a lot of little things happen and it just kind of snowballed in a really lovely way.

A (16:18)

Yeah. You mentioned before that romance is really good for people when they're going through a hard time. Have you noticed a change in your relationship and your readership over the last eight years, like, since the book has come out, given the political, the changing political climate and sort of the ways that things have especially recently, felt more escalated. Have you, have you felt that, like on the ground dealing with readers who often are reading romance for enjoyment and escape?

B (16:51)

Yeah. I mean, the number of people that I've met in the past, like, few years who have said to me, I started reading your book during the pandemic. And then I read them all. Like, I think a lot of people came in during the pandemic. You know, I've, people have said that exact phrase to me so many times. Like, I started reading your books during the Pandemic. And it really got me through the hard times. And I was like, yeah, like, there are books that got me through hard times in the pandemic, you know, and so, like, I feel grateful, but also so honored that I could help other people through that time because it was, you know, it was terrible. And also this is a very hard time. And so I think, like, I just finished watching Heated Rivalry last night. It's a delightful show. I loved it. And I also think that part of the reason that people are so attached to it, it has come out at exactly the right moment that people need that, like, uplift in a really hard time.

A (17:49)

I think that's right. I think that it's like this thing that is a fun distraction and, like, something you can indulge in when it feels like there's so little that is worthy of indulging in right now and so little time to do it. What were the books you remember being comforting to you during the pandemic?

B (18:09)

So I read a lot of mystery novels, and I started reading, well, so also in early, probably like the end of March, 2020, two of my closest friends from college and I started doing weekly FaceTime calls because none of us live close to each other and which we had never done before. And now we still do, though they're no longer. They're no longer weekly because we leave our houses sometimes it's a little harder to schedule. But we started, like, not quite a little book club, but we started, like, all talking about books all the time because we all like to read. And one person told us about this series of mystery novels set in England by Ellie Griffiths. They're about this anthropologist who is a professor who, like, solves a bunch of murders. And we read that whole series during the pandemic. And those books, I think, well, there's 13 of them. Oh, my gosh, 13 or 14. But they. The. The most recent one just came out last year, so they didn't all. But there were a bunch that had already been published. And then a few came out during the pandemic and we were like, yes, let's talk about all of these. And so those books, like, really got me through.

A (19:14)

Yeah, I love that. Okay, I have this sort of burning question. I don't. This might be a small sample size, but you. Friend of the show, Tia Williams. Past guests. And I'll say friend, but not really. Stacey Abrams. High powered black women lawyers, politicians. Some. Some both. I mean, Tia was like, running journalism. Beauty journalism.

B (19:42)

Right.

A (19:43)

All three of you write romance novels. What do you think it is that. And I don't think it's just you three. I think there's probably more. You're just the three that I know. But what do you think is going on here?

B (20:00)

You know, I think it's a few things. I think part of it is like wanting to. Wanting to tap into the joy that I think people don't usually think of black women as getting. Right. Like, so often when I look at media that is for and about black women. I don't want to say by black women, but, like, aimed towards black women and about black women. It is about, like, the struggle, you know? And, yeah, there's struggle. I'm not denying the struggle. But also, there is so much more in our lives. There is, you know, love and family and joy. And I think wanting to be able to show we are not a monolith, that that's not. That the struggle is not all we can do and it's not all we're about is something that I think especially when people who see all of the hard things really want to show, like, but look at. Look at the rest of us, you know? And actually, that's kind of the thing that inspires me, both in writing, but also in political stuff. Because when I. When there's going through hard times, like, that's what I want to protect, right? I want people to be able to have that joy. I want people to be able to, like, read fun stories with their kids or, like, have a great wedding or have those stories of falling in love. And so those are the things that I think of during hard times.

A (21:32)

That makes a lot of sense. Do you have favorite. A favorite trope?

B (21:36)

I love fake dating. I think this is why my first book was about fake dating, and I have returned to that a little bit other times. I also love, but I have never written Marriage of Convenience. I just find it delightful.

A (21:52)

I don't think I ever read a Marriage of Convenience book.

B (21:55)

I mean, historical does it easier? Contemporary, it often has to be, like, about health care, which is depressing, or immigration, which is tricky. So there are ways that I've seen it work in contemporary, but it's a lot harder. Okay.

A (22:12)

On the flip side, as a reader or a writer, are there any tropes that are just totally just. No thanks from you.

B (22:21)

So this is a trope that has its lovers.

A (22:24)

Okay.

B (22:24)

But I do not like secret baby books.

A (22:28)

Okay.

B (22:29)

I don't know how familiar you are. You know, you're new to romance. I don't sort of.

A (22:33)

I feel like I've heard about the secret baby.

B (22:35)

For me, the reason I don't like it is mostly because either way, no matter what happens, one of the main characters seems like a real asshole. Right, Right.

A (22:49)

Because the trope is that there's a baby that is coming that is not known about by a spouse or a partner.

B (23:00)

And usually either like, you know, the they're hiding. Like they're either hiding the baby because the guy was an asshole or the woman who is hiding the baby is being an asshole to hide it. Right, right. I mean, because you know, in their like from a great writer, this can be fixed. Alexa Martin wrote a book that I wouldn't quite call Secret Baby, but it is like a secret child years later. And in that the bad guy is someone else. So it all sort of works out. Ends up working out. And it and that book I like, I love all of her books and that book really works. But it is really hard to not make that very tricky.

A (23:47)

Are you the kind of person that would feel excited about attempting to write your least favorite trope, like trying to make it work? Or are you a person that's just like secret babies? No, thanks.

B (24:01)

Okay. So I've actually tried not with secret babies, but one of my other least favorite tropes is basically the bet where like, someone bets someone else that they can get this person to go out with them or sleep with them or whatever.

A (24:14)

That's very. She, she's all that.

B (24:17)

And usually like, it just makes the person who makes the bets an asshole and it's hard for me to ever get on their side. And also I will say the person who makes the bet is usually the guy. Yeah, I have a, I have a really low tolerance for assholes in fiction. Okay. Which I think makes me not. I think a lot of romance readers have a high tolerance for romance and for assholes in fiction. And so there are a lot of like assholes with a heart of gold character. I usually never forgive them.

A (24:48)

Okay. And I'm the third kind of person that is like, I only want to read about fucking assholes in fiction. That's all I want. I want you to be the biggest jerk possible. I want a jerk competition.

B (25:02)

So I don't mind an asshole in a non romance.

A (25:06)

Right. But to like come around to the.

B (25:09)

Person, I, I have to moderate that. I don't really mind an woman. I, I man, I'm like, yeah, you got it. You get like one chance with me and then I'm done with you.

A (25:21)

Right.

B (25:22)

So I tried when I was writing flirting lessons, which is My most recent book, I started off with, like, maybe I can do a bet for this one, but, like, make it so that I don't hate it. Right. And so I kind of started off with thinking, like, maybe this will be. You know, she makes a bet that she can get the other woman to go out with her and stuff. And then I tried to write it, and I was like, every way I do this, she looks like an. So I had to, like, change things around, but. Oh, I think there are ways to do all of those things. It just didn't work with either of those two characters.

A (26:05)

Yeah, right.

B (26:06)

That I was working with. I do think that it. It is a fun challenge as a writer to think, like, how can I write this in a way that I like? Because actually, like, trying to think through that for that book. I didn't end up writing it that way, but it did help me figure out the book, you know.

A (26:24)

Right. And, like, flesh out the characters and, like, them dimensions.

B (26:28)

Yeah.

A (26:28)

Yeah. That's so interesting. I. I like. I like enemies to lovers and I like fake dating. Yeah, I like fake dating. Fake dating is so fun.

B (26:37)

I don't know.

A (26:38)

I don't know why I like it so much, because I'm just like. This is. I feel like fake dating is the trope that is the least common in real life. Do you know what I mean? Like, who's out here?

B (26:48)

Fake dating.

A (26:49)

But I love it every time I come across it.

B (26:51)

I wrote a piece for the New York Times last year with, like, a list of my favorite fake dating books, and in it I said that basically, like, does this ever happen in life? I don't think so. I have no clue. It doesn't matter. I don't care. I love it. Yeah, I love it.

A (27:04)

I don't know. There's something about it that's just so. Charming.

B (27:07)

Yeah.

A (27:08)

Okay. Before we kind of move on to your taste in books, you and I are going to read Indigo by Beverly Jenkins for book club this month. People, if you're listening now, pick up the book. You have until the end of February to read it. Jasmine will be back the last Wednesday of the month to discuss the book. I gave you a list of books. We were talking about different options. You picked this? I'm super excited about it. But what about this book? Book made you want to read it for book club?

B (27:34)

So Beverly Jenkins has a really big catalog, and I have only read a handful of her books, and I've loved them all. But this is the book that always comes up for people when they're like, what should, what's the book that someone should read to introduce, you know, you to Beverly Jenkins? And people always say Indigo. And I haven't read it yet. And so I was like, let's do it. Yeah.

A (27:57)

Okay. This is the one that I feel like. Likewise, people always suggest this. And also, I've never read any Beverly Jenkins because my journey to romance is through this podcast. I've read a lot more contemporary, like, newer stuff. Newer stuff. And just like, maybe people who are gonna be on the romance Rushmore but like, are still like in the beginnings of their careers. Because in romance it's like you're, you're beginning until you've written 35 books.

B (28:27)

Seriously.

A (28:27)

Right? Like, I'm just like, Danielle Steele is got 7,000 books. So like, whereas, like, if you write literary fiction, you have three books. It's like mid career and romance, it's like you don't hit mid career until you've written like 15. How many have you written? Eight.

B (28:42)

My next book will be number 10.

A (28:44)

Oh my.

B (28:44)

So. So. Yeah, so my. So you're.

A (28:47)

You're hitting, you're hitting.

B (28:48)

I'm hitting mid.

A (28:49)

You're getting into the like mid career. Barely with almost 10. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Valentine's Day is upon us and I've got love on the brain. Love for books. Duh. Of course. Hello. Did you forget what podcast you're listening to? I love bringing you all great reads, exclusive author interviews, and behind the scenes book gossip. But I can only do that with your support. Over on Patreon and Substack, our Stacks Patreon community, also known as the Stacks Pack, is where you can go for book club meetups, a private, very active discord, and a year long mega reading challenge to help you achieve all your reading goals. Plus you also get that monthly bonus episode. Now over on the substack, you can subscribe to my newsletter unstacked, where I keep the book conversations going. I also give you a healthy dose of sports and pop culture. Definitely some hot takes happening over there. And again, that bonus episode, if you don't have a few dollars to spare, don't worry, there are free options on the sub stack and the Patreon to get you a little extra stacks magic. Making this podcast is a total team effort and by supporting my Patreon and my substack, you allow me to support my amazing team that makes the show possible every single week. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers and support this indie podcast. Come hang out with me on Patreon Substack or both. I would love to have you. And since we're talking about love, you can gift subscriptions to the Patreon and the sub stack for that special reader in your life. For the Stacks pack, head to patreon.com the stacks and for the newsletter, head to Tracy thomas.substack.com and also there are links to both in the show notes. Okay, see you in the stacks. We are back. I did not prepare you for this, but we do something called Ask the Stacks where someone writes in an email asking for a book recommendation. I found this one. It's a little is a an older email, but I think you're the perfect person for it. So I pulled it out of the the archive. It's from M and they say I'm a performing artist, producer, educator who was in a rehearsal for multiple plays and musicals most of the year and it makes my brain busy. What are some light reads, fiction or nonfiction that I can read when I get home at night to help me wind down after rehearsals? I like fantasy, ya, health and wellness, non fiction, some historical fiction, and some romance. Recent faves include Check and Mate by Ali Hazelwood, the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, and Fair Rosaline. Perennial faves include anything by Madeleine Longle. I don't know.

B (31:51)

That really is a great question for me because she is also a perennial fave of mine.

A (31:55)

Okay, how do I say it? Lengle.

B (31:57)

I say it lengle, but I don't know if that's correct.

A (32:00)

I was gonna go Longo, but you know, I don't know. So I can go first because I was prepared. If you want to take a second to think and come up with titles, you can do one to three. I'm gonna do three. So my first one is I'm gonna do romance first because, you know, we're doing romance this month. Big fan by Alexandra Romanoff. It is the first book out of 831 stories, which is a newer indie romance press. They they print like little teeny tiny cutie patootie novellas. And this one is about a woman who works in politics who kind of has a scandal in her marriage, gets a divorce or breaks up with her husband and and ends up dating the lead singer of a boy band that she loved as a kid. And so it's kind of, you know, it's a celebrity normie book. Celebrity. I think they call it celebrity Normal person. Yes, it sounds insane. So I like to call it A celeb Normie.

B (32:55)

I like that better. I do.

A (32:56)

Yeah. Celebrity, Normal person. It's the person. Like it's just too. It's chunky. Anyways, it's a really cute book. I liked it a ton of which is saying a lot because I do, you know, I'm new to the genre. My next one is sort of a YA romance historical adaptation told anew. It's one of my faves. Anna K by Jenny Lee, which is the YA retelling of Anna Karen and us. Set in New York City rich kid gossip girl circles. It's a total blast. This was one of my pandemic comfort reads. I picked it up right when lockdown started and I devoured it. It's so much fun. And then my last one is a nonfiction pick that is not exactly what you asked for, but I think you might like it. It's called Fight of the Century by Isla and it's edited by Ayelet Waldman and Michael Chabon. And it's about the hundred years of ACLU backed Supreme Court decisions. And it's an. It's an anthology. So it has different essays from different writers. Yaa. Jesse wrote one. You get one from Jesmyn Ward, you get one from Hector Tobar. They're really cool and they range things like the Miranda rights or, or Brown versus Board. But because they're each essays, it's something that would be easy to digest. Like one a night after rehearsal to kind of wind down. And they're interesting and they're fun and they're so well written because it's like all these geniuses who care about the world talking about these decisions. So those are my three picks. Jasmine, you can do one to three.

B (34:32)

All right. I recommend Amy Spalding's romance novels the most. Her, the one that's about to come out actually I think is perfect for this person. It's the fourth in her out in Hollywood series and the one that's about to come out is called In Her Spotlight. And it is about a director and the star of her play. But the star is like a big hot movie star, but they like had a relationship years before and so. So I think it'll be perfect for this person. I recommend the other three books in the series as well. But Inner Spotlight comes out in a. In a few weeks in the middle of February. So she can start with the other books in the series if she wants to, but that is also a perfect like one for her. The next one that I want to recommend is. Is a fantasy romance, little Hybrid, and it's called A Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches. It is delightful. It is charming. There's some, like, real topics that they get into about community and, like, found family and stuff, but I just loved everything about this book. So much so that, like, when I got an email asking me to blurb the second book, I replied in all caps, like, send this to me immediately. And I know, yes. Like, yes, I wanted this book. Thank God someone thought of me. And I loved the second one, too. So I like. I recommend them both, but start with the Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping and. Or, sorry, the Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches. A Witch's Guide to Magical Innkeeping is the second one.

A (36:11)

Okay.

B (36:11)

And then my nonfiction pick is going a little off track of both of these, but it is a nonfiction book that I recommend to so many people because it just pulled me in right away, and it just tells a really good story. It's called Boomtown. It is about Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City. And it's like Oklahoma City and Oklahoma City basketball team. Neither of which are topics that I particularly cared about before reading this book. And it just pulls you right in. Like, I was so absorbed by the book. You don't have to know anything about either thing to really get into the book. And I feel like it's kind of the perfect, you know, nonfiction story to, like, make you forget about anything else going on. Because I, like, I read it a few years ago and I'm still totally talking about it.

A (37:00)

I love that. That's such a good pick. Okay, please let us know if you read any of these books, if you like any of these books for folks at home. I need more Ask the stacks questions for 2026. So please email Ask the Stacks@thestacks podcast.com with what you're looking for. A few books you love and or hate. And then we will try to match you up with some books. All right, Jasmine, you are officially in the Stacks hot seat. Two books you love, one book you hate.

B (37:30)

All right, let's start with one I love that comes out this spring. I don't know if that's cheating, but it is a book that I read in October. It comes out in March, and I can't stop thinking about it. It's called Whidbey by T. Kira Madden. It is about a number of women who have all. Who all, in different ways, have been touched by this one man who was a child monster. And so you never hear from him, which is great. Sorry, my tongue. There's the dog wanted to be Part of this recommendation. And I, like. I read it in, I think, two days. I read it on vacation, and I have just not been able to stop thinking about it since.

A (38:12)

Partly.

B (38:13)

I mean, it's just so well written. Like, you just really get into the heads of these women, and the story is told so well. Like, I can't wait for more people to read this book so I can talk to them about it. And I. There's so many things that have come up since then, like small things or big things about. Because it's really about, like, sort of the way we treat women in the world, the way we treat victims, what the court system does to people. And it is just wonderful. And I can't stop thinking about it.

A (38:41)

Oh, my God. I'm so. It's high on my list. I'm super excited to read it. So I'm glad to know that you love it. Another love? Or do you want to do your hate? Do you want to sandwich the hate into loves? Do you want to just do two loves and then rip the band aid off?

B (38:55)

I'll go with the hate. I'll go with my hate. Which many people are shocked and horrified by this, but I've always hated the Great Gatsby.

A (39:05)

Oh, okay.

B (39:07)

I. Yes, yes. Blah, blah, blah. The green light, Whatever. Nothing about it does anything for me. I read that book with just blank face, blank eyes, and I've read it so many times.

A (39:18)

That's so funny. I read the great Gatsby at O'. Dowd, I want to say, in Mr. Medallia's film and TV. Like, remember that class?

B (39:25)

I did not see that class, but.

A (39:27)

Do you remember it? It was like, lit to film or lit to screen or something like that. Yeah, yeah.

B (39:31)

And I just like, nothing about the Great. I'm like, oh, bunch of spoiled rich people. Great.

A (39:37)

Yeah.

B (39:37)

Like, nothing about it resonates with me. Did you really like the.

A (39:42)

The one from last year? The Great Man.

B (39:44)

The Great Man. There we go. I did really like the Great Man.

A (39:46)

I've heard it's great. I didn't get to read it yet, but I've heard it's really good. Yeah.

B (39:50)

Because I feel like that's an interesting take on that kind of, you know, theme and trope and whatever. I really liked that. But, yeah, say the Great Gatsby's never done anything for me.

A (40:02)

And what's your second love?

B (40:05)

I'm gonna go back to actually author whose book I mentioned earlier, Alexa Martin. She has a series of football books. Intercepted was the first one, and I just love it. So much. One of the things that really gets to me in books is kind of like stories about female friendship and, like, women kind of banding together, which I think romance novels often do very well. But also, you know, she has a really interesting perspective on the NFL because her husband used to play for the NFL. She's been like, deeply involved with it. And I love how she kind of talks about all of the stuff wrong with football while still writing a great book about it, you know, and it's a great romance. Like, I just really. I loved reading that book, and it came out, I think, the same year the wedding dated like, a few months later, and I just adored it.

A (40:59)

And I still do.

B (41:00)

Yeah.

A (41:01)

Okay. So I don't ask this question in this way for people who don't write genre, but because I know that, like, in genre authors, there's, like, a much more tight community and I think, like, a lot of bonds, especially in romance. So I'm wondering for your reading life, how much are you reading things to sort of stay up on what's going on in the community and, like, reading your friends or new authors on the scene and then how much of your reading life is just whatever sort of strikes your fancy, whether it's a romance novel or not?

B (41:35)

You know, that is. That is one of the hardest things about this job, actually.

A (41:40)

Yeah.

B (41:41)

As someone who has always loved reading and has read, has been a huge, like, I read every day, you know, always. And one of the hardest things about this job is having reading, which has always been sort of like, my relaxing time. Also, I have to read for work now, and that is hard. And so having to, like, figure out, okay, am I going to. What. When am I going to carve out this time for, like, books that I've been sent to blurb or for books that. For that, you know, I'm doing an event with this person and so I need to read their book or.

A (42:18)

Right.

B (42:19)

That I want to, like, stay up on what's going on. That has been a challenge. And it's something that I, like, try to play with every year. Like, how am I going to do this? You know? And I think actually one thing that really helps is I was thinking about this a lot because I know, I think last year, the year before, something you posted something about, like, beach reads that they don't have to be. And. Yeah, and I realized this actually, when I'm on vacation, I tend, like, vacation tends to be the time that I. This sounds weird, but devote to those books that I'm reading for work.

A (42:56)

Yeah.

B (42:57)

Partly because when I'm not working or when I'm like, letting myself relax when I, you know, if I. Especially if I. I'm doing a beach vacation and I'm like, like reading on the beach or at the pool all day, I have the mental space to like, dive into things that I kind of think about as work. So it's hard because reading romance used to be relaxing for me and it isn't anymore because I still have the work brain on. So I do read a lot of romance during those times. But I also, like, that's when I kind of read tougher literary fiction because I, like, have the time to delve into it. I try to kind of go back and forth. I'm also almost always rereading something, so I will be like, all right, I'll, you know, read like 50 pages of this book that I'm blurbing and then I'll like, read a little bit of this Agatha Christie that I'm rereading or whatever to kind of break up the time. But it is something that I really struggle with because I don't. I never want to lose my love for reading by thinking of it as work.

A (44:02)

Yeah.

B (44:02)

So I really try to balance that. And sometimes the balance is off in one way or the other, but.

A (44:08)

But yeah, I get it. I get it big time. Do you do audiobooks?

B (44:14)

I never used to do audiobooks, and then I got a dog, and so I listen to audiobooks often when I walk my dog. But for me, what I have found is non fiction works much better for me in audio. I can't. I tried to read, I tried to listen to fiction, and it doesn't really work for me as well. But nonfiction, I love in audio, especially, like memoirs. I love memoirs and audio.

A (44:37)

The only kind of fiction that works for me on audio is extremely voicey, first person books. Because that is almost like memoir where it's like, and then I went to the store and I can't believe he said this to me. And then I stabbed his wife or whatever. Like, I'm like, great, I can go with this. I can follow this very linear story. But if there's like different perspectives or like a distant narrator, I can't do it.

B (45:00)

The only book that worked for me really in audio and fiction was Yellowface.

A (45:05)

Yeah. Because it is exactly that. Yeah, right.

B (45:08)

And the narrator was very like. Like, she grabbed me. And so that really worked. But, yeah, but like memoir, I listened to a lot of memoirs while walking the dog, so that's. And also I feel like I'm a really fast reader, so in fiction, and I, you know, walk my dog a few times a day, but, like, that's a lot slower than I can usually read, so I just get too impatient and just, like, want to read the book.

A (45:39)

Do you have a book that you just, like, love to recommend to people?

B (45:46)

You know, it depends on the person. I definitely like asking a lot of questions. I recommend the Warmth of Other Sons a lot.

A (45:52)

Yes.

B (45:53)

Because that is such a good book. And it really, like, you know, there it. I mean, it taught me so much about, like, as a history major, I love just learning all of the things that I never really learned in school, but also it just taught me, like, about myself. Right. Like, I grew up in Oakland, both sides of my family, originally from Louisiana and came to Oakland.

A (46:14)

Same.

B (46:14)

Which. Which, yes, of course, same. Because, like, you're a black person from Oakland. Exactly. You know, but, like, I didn't. Growing up, I knew that, but I didn't know why. Like, I didn't. And I didn't really even think about it. When you're a kid, like, oh, yeah, okay. All the black people I know are Catholic and from Louisiana who live in Oakland. And that book explained why to, you know, to me, like, oh, okay. They came to work on the shipyards, like my grandfather. Oh, right, right. Obviously. Yeah.

A (46:41)

I had the same exact experience. It's one of the things, like, whenever people hear, like, Marshawn lynch or, like, Ryan Coogler talk and they're like, why do they have Southern accents? I'm like, well, let me tell you, Elizabeth Wilkerson has some explaining for you.

B (46:53)

No, I mean, the first time I ever went to New Orleans, just, like, it was like, first of all, the first time I went to New Orleans, I'm checking into a hotel, I say my name, and then I start to spell it, like I always do, because people always say my name wrong. And the woman stopped me, and she was like, we know how to spell gillery here. And I was like, oh, yeah, you do. Of course you do. But then I, you know, I look around and like, oh, everybody here looks like me. Like, those. Those older women look like my aunts. Like, those could be my aunts over there. You know, that kind of thing. So, yes. I mean, that is one book that I definitely recommend to a lot of people.

A (47:28)

How do you organize your books?

B (47:32)

Very poorly. I mean, that.

A (47:35)

Sigh.

B (47:38)

I always kind of start with, like. Like, kind of by. Not by genre, but by, like, category. So, like, I have a lot of children's books, like, Children's books, cookbooks, nonfiction, fiction. But then I also have, like, there's a big. There's a bookshelf, big bookshelf, like, in my living room that is basically books that I have been sent. So there's just, like, stacks of them. And then I also have, like, random stacks of books in my office.

A (48:10)

Right.

B (48:10)

Which, like, half of them are like, my books, but then half of them are just like, other books that I have put in the bookshelf. And all of the. And then I pull books out and then I put them back in stacks and. And eventually I will reorganize them. But. Yeah.

A (48:24)

What is your ideal reading setup? Location, Time of day, Snack and beverage? Temperature, Music? Set the scene.

B (48:33)

Okay, so there. There are two.

A (48:36)

Okay.

B (48:37)

One for at home and one for vacation.

A (48:39)

Okay.

B (48:39)

Vacation is. I am either on the beach in a beach chair or I am in a pool holding a book.

A (48:48)

Okay.

B (48:48)

I like to do a lot of, like, walking back and forth in the pool.

A (48:52)

While reading. While reading.

B (48:54)

But I'll. I also enjoy, like, being on a beach chair. The water is right there. And then I have a book and I can take breaks and, like, get in the water. Yes. Beverage is like, you know, something fruity and delicious. Some sort of, like, salty snack.

A (49:12)

Yes.

B (49:13)

Like chips and guacamole is perfect. That kind of thing. At home, I do the vast majority of my reading in the bathtub.

A (49:22)

Okay. Snacks and beverages in the bathtub.

B (49:24)

Not. I usually have a water bottle, but usually not snacks. Yeah.

A (49:27)

Just water for me.

B (49:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes I like to read in the bath, too, but yeah, reading in the.

A (49:34)

Bath is the best.

B (49:35)

It's the best.

A (49:36)

Do you. You do you ever do Kindle or E Reader?

B (49:39)

I do a lot of books on Kindle.

A (49:41)

Yeah, I do, too. Especially in the bath because I like to have the lights out.

B (49:44)

Yes.

A (49:45)

And I don't like using my reading light in the bathtub while I don't care if I drop my book in the water, which, you know, I've never.

B (49:51)

Done, but I used to do that a lot when I was a kid. I haven't done it in years, but I have. I still have a lot of, like, very waterlogged books.

A (50:00)

But, yeah. The light is the thing that trips me up about in the bathroom. I have, like, a little lamp that I can turn. But the E Reader is better for.

B (50:09)

The bath for me. I mean, here's the thing. There are many, many bad things about Amazon, but the Kindle is really the best thing that they've ever done.

A (50:15)

I agree with that.

B (50:16)

The lack of, like the lack of the backlight. It's just such a.

A (50:20)

Easy, it's easy.

B (50:21)

Good reading.

A (50:23)

Yeah.

B (50:23)

Experience.

A (50:24)

Yeah.

B (50:24)

I also really like, like all of my friends make fun of me when they see how big I have the print on my Kindle.

A (50:31)

Oh, yeah.

B (50:31)

I don't, I don't want eye strain.

A (50:34)

What size do go approximately?

B (50:36)

I think that like I'm at 10.

A (50:38)

Oh my gosh.

B (50:38)

Okay.

A (50:39)

I'm a five. I'm a four or five.

B (50:41)

Oh, yeah. I go big.

A (50:43)

Yeah. Oh my gosh. See, I'm always just like trying to maximize the number of words on the page because I don't like, like, because I'm usually cold, so I'm like tucked in. So I have to like. Do you have a clicker? I know people have clickers, but that seems like a bridge too.

B (50:55)

But yeah, I'm like, also I feel like that's little. How would I keep track of the.

A (51:00)

Yeah, the clicker's not for me, but shout out to everybody who has. I mean, I tell a story. So I have twins, you know, and when I was breastfeeding in the very beginning, I would have each baby, one on each boob and I would put my Kindle, I'd sit cross legged. I put my Kindle like on my shin or knee and then I would reach down with my nose to turn the page. I did not know about the clicker. I think then it would have made a lot of sense, but I didn't find out.

B (51:23)

So I feel like the clicker is relatively new. So maybe, I don't know, I made it work.

A (51:28)

And I read Anna K. Much of Anna K. I read that way, actually. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

B (51:35)

I go to my favorite books. Local bookstore is East Bay Booksellers here in Oakland, which a little over a year ago had a very tragic fire. They have reopened into a new location, which is great. And I have been going there for a very long time and they've been like super supportive of me and the staff who work there are all so great. So yeah, we had, we, we had some real bonding moments when. Because I've done like a lot of, you know, signed pre orders there and there were times like, you know, because I had a book come out in June of 2020.

A (52:10)

Right, right.

B (52:11)

And so I went to go sign pre orders there and like I was the only person they let in the store and we were all at all in a mask. I'm signing books and yeah, they're great. But I love like one of my favorite things about going on book tour is just, like, getting to go to different bookstores all across the country and, like, meeting the staff. Because, like, I've always loved independent bookstores. I feel like those, like, bookstore owners have, you know, throughout my life, have like, been like, oh, you're a kid who loves to read. Great. I have ideas for you. And my parents were like, great. Give her. Show her books to read.

A (52:45)

Do it.

B (52:46)

Yeah, yeah. And so I, like, there are so many bookstores that I just love and have loved to get to explore as I visited them.

A (52:54)

So, okay, this is our rapid fire. So you just tell me the answer. You don't even have to explain. Okay, what's the last book that made you laugh?

B (53:01)

Kin by Tyree Jones.

A (53:03)

It's so good. What's the last book that made you cry?

B (53:07)

Here's the thing about me is that I am not really a crier.

A (53:10)

Me neither.

B (53:12)

So, unfortunately, I feel like the last book that made me cry was one of my books while I was working on it.

A (53:18)

Okay, that's fair. That's fair. That's right. Okay, what's the last book that made you angry?

B (53:24)

Also? Kin by Tyra Jones. Okay, I'm in the midst of reading it right now, so.

A (53:29)

Good. Oh, my gosh. It comes out the end of February, so people listening. You're almost there. You're almost there. It's like 20 more days and it'll be here. What's the last book where you felt like you learned a lot?

B (53:41)

I guess I'm thinking non fiction with this, but I, you know, I'll go back to fiction on this one. I feel like whidby, which I already talked about earlier. Yeah.

A (53:49)

Okay. Is there a book that you're, like, maybe not deeply, but sort of embarrassed that you've never read before?

B (53:59)

Probably quite a few. But weirdly, Twilight I've never read.

A (54:05)

I've never read it either.

B (54:06)

I feel like it's a book that, like, everybody in romance has read and people talk about it all the time. And I'm like, I mean, I know who Edward and Jacob are, but I know.

A (54:19)

Yeah. Is there a book that you wish more people knew about?

B (54:26)

The Yellow House by Sarah M. Broom. Have you read that?

A (54:30)

I started it.

B (54:31)

I never finished it, so I really loved it. It's. It's memoir, like, reported memoir. Ish. But it's about her family, but also her experience in Hurricane Katrina. And I just loved it so much. I mean, I think partly because there were a lot of, like, I. There were a lot of sort of parallels with small Parallels with my life that I saw in it. But also, I. I just, like, loved the reading experience of it.

A (55:00)

Yeah. What. I feel like you'll have an answer for this because you're a romance reader, and so what is your problematic favorite book?

B (55:11)

So. Devil in Winter by Lisa Claypass. I don't know if I say her last name right. I love that book so much.

A (55:18)

Okay.

B (55:19)

It is part of a series in the. It's the second in the series. In the first book of the series, the hero of Devil in Winter kind of threatened to rape someone.

A (55:32)

Okay. Not great.

B (55:35)

And definitely kidnapped her. Okay.

A (55:37)

Definitely not good.

B (55:38)

Not great. Not great. But I love him in this book so much. And, like, it's funny because I talked about, like, the. The, like, FaceTime call I have with two of my best friends. Two of us had read this book and loved it and. And have loved it for years. And then the other one, like, started the series and, like, read the first one and then read the second one, and then it was like, you guys, how do you like this book? Because didn't he. And we were like, well, yeah, but.

A (56:03)

Yeah, but it's fine. It's fiction. It's fine. Yeah. So I get it. I get it. Okay, just two more questions for me. One is, if you were a high school teacher, what is the book you would assign to your students?

B (56:20)

Okay. The Girls who Grew Big by Another Daughter. I really love that book, and I love the way it talks about teenage girls. And, like, I feel like in so many of it's, you know, it's a book about teenage moms, and I think in so many of the media about teenage girls, it's looking down on them. And I. And I feel like this book treats them as equals in a way that society usually does.

A (56:53)

Not that I love that. We love Layla here. Yeah. Okay, last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would you want it to be like?

B (57:04)

I don't know. Greetings and ham. I mean, I feel like. I feel like the only thing that would get through the. The only thing that, first of all, he's cognitively able to understand is, like, a children's book, which is. That's not a. That's not an insult to children's books in the least. I think picture books are incredible. So I feel like, yeah, maybe a great picture book would. Would be able to get through to him in some way.

A (57:30)

I'm like, the number one Green Eggs and Ham. Stan. I think that book is perfect. I'm like, this is. It's written in iambic pentameter. It's, like, perfect. It's a perfect example of, like, changing your mind. Like, I re. I read all the time to my kids, and before I get to the end or when I get to them, always, like. Like, do you see what happened? He thought he didn't like this thing, and then.

B (57:49)

And then he tried it.

A (57:51)

Tried it. You will see. You know, I'm just. I love it so much.

B (57:55)

Same. I mean, it's always been one of my favorite books.

A (57:58)

I feel like it's like a perfect book.

B (57:59)

Maybe. Maybe. I mean, I also think more people should be open to the possibility of changing their minds. Like, I think that too many people think changing your mind is weakness, and that's it. The opposite. It's like you learn new things and you change your mind.

A (58:17)

Right?

B (58:17)

And that's. That. That's. That's saying that you're smart because you learned and you changed your mind.

A (58:24)

Yeah. Wow. Learning, reading, changing your mind. All incredible things. I love this recommendation. All right, party people. This has been a conversation with the one and only amazing Jasmine Guillory. You can get one of her nine books wherever books are sold. The first one, which is where I think you should start, is the wedding date. But I also really like the proposal, which was number two.

B (58:49)

Thank you.

A (58:50)

And that has a baseball bent to it. So even though, you know, the Dodgers, which I'm not wild about, are there, I still like the book, which is saying something. So. But there's so many. There's. There's. There's one for older people. There's one. There's a lesbian one. There's a. There's a follow up. Like, there's, you know, so whatever you're into, unless it's hidden babies, secret babies, there's a book for you. Okay, there's no bets and there's no secret babies, but otherwise there is a Jasmine Gillery book for you. Jasmine and I will be back on February 25th to discuss with spoilers, Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. So get your copy of the book wherever you get your books, and we will see you guys back. Back then. Jasmine, thank you so much.

B (59:36)

Thank you for having me. Can't wait to talk about Indigo.

A (59:38)

I'm so excited. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Jasmine Guillory for joining the show. Special shout out to Disha Philia for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for February is Indigo by Beverly Jenkins, and we will be decent discussing the book on Wednesday, February 25th with Jasmine Guillory returning as our guest. If you love the Stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter unstacked@tracy thomas.substack.com Please make sure that you are subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestacks, Pod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stax was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.