Heather Ann Thompson (3:11)

I'm so excited to be here.

Tracy Thomas (3:13)

It's been five years since we last spoke.

Heather Ann Thompson (3:16)

Oh, it's just crazy, I know. But. But the most important podcast. So I'm so excited to be here.

Tracy Thomas (3:21)

I'm honored. The most important guest I call. For those of you who don't know, I call Heather and Thompson the patron saint of the Stacks because it was her previous book, Blood in the Water, that sort of inspired me to start the show. So you get to be the patron saint because you wrote the book that really kicked this whole thing off. Even though it took us like three and a half years to cover the book on the show. It happened. And now we're back. Okay, you've got a new book. Tell the people what Fear and Fury is about in about 30 seconds or so.

Heather Ann Thompson (3:49)

Okay. So the new book is probably, to a lot of younger folks, a new story, which is about a pretty brutal subway shooting that happened in New York City in 1984 in kind of the heart of the gritty 80s. And it is a story that older people will remember because it immediately made headlines in that sense, kind of a true crime story. A guy shoots down four. A white guy, loner, shoots down four black teenagers, and then he escapes in the tunnels of the New York City subway system. There's a manhunt. He finally, you know, turns himself in. There's going to be all kinds of trials. It's just a crazy story. And I wanted to go back and dig into it because I suspected that it had a lot to say about where we are today with this kind of present day unleashing of rage and violence and serious racial tensions. And I also really wanted to rescue the story of the victims in this book, which were the four black teenagers that I have to say with a degree of embarrassment, I didn't know who they were. I knew who this guy was. His name was Bernie Goetz. And I was of the generation. I remember the event, but I couldn't have named his victims for anything. And that really troubled me and kind of brought me to the story.

Tracy Thomas (5:25)

Same, same. I. I would not have been able to tell you that I was born a few years after this happened, but because this is the kind of thing that I become deeply obsessed with, I Think I found out about this story, I want to say, in the wake of Trayvon Martin or the wake of Michael Brown. And I can't quite remember, but I do remember someone sort of offhandedly saying, like, bernie Getz. And me being totally like, that is new information. And then a few years ago with the. With the, like, suffocation, Strangulation on the subway train by Daniel Penny, I remember saying to so many people, like, oh, my God, it's Bernie Getz. And so many of my friends being like, what are you talking about? And me being like, google it. How do you not know this? Everybody knows this. And being like, on such a high horse. But I guess the question is, like, it's not an anniversary year. This happened in 1984. This book is coming out in 2026. Generally, these things sort of happen on an anniversary year. So why this story right now? Why did. Why was it, like, not only am I going to write this book now, but I want it to come out immediately?

Heather Ann Thompson (6:33)

Yeah, that's a great question. Especially because for me, I was in the middle of writing another book, which.

Tracy Thomas (6:38)

I want to talk about, and I just sort of.

Heather Ann Thompson (6:41)

Which I, of course, will still do. But I felt like that there was just kind of this emergency moment internally. Like, what is going on in world that we live in? I mean, no matter what someone's political point of view is, it feels like everything is coming apart at the seams. It feels like decorum has gone out the window. We have just seen so many cases where someone can. Random citizen can just gun down their fellow citizens and not just be celebrated for it, but actually be legally vindicated when they do it. So I'm thinking here of like, Kyle Rittenhouse or, you know, the. Not even just police killings. I mean, just ordinary citizens.

Tracy Thomas (7:21)

Daniel Penny, right?

Heather Ann Thompson (7:22)

Yeah. And you mentioned Daniel Penny on the New York City subway most recently. And so I just was feeling like between that and between kind of the escalation of really just ordinary citizen rage at, you know, people who had it worse than they do many respects and no respect for government and all of this stuff. So I'm like, I. I feel like I gotta go back to the 80s and I gotta really revisit what unleashes, because I'm a historian, I don't believe that these things just come. You know, we didn't just elect a new president, and then all of a sudden the political landscape changes. There are predecessors to this. And so that's what I was digging into, and literally dropped everything and did this Kind of deep dive and, like, with the Attica book, wanted to deep dive into the story. We didn't know. Tell it, hopefully, more like a novel, like. More like you're. You're there, you're in it. And to do that, find sources that hadn't really been looked at before.

Tracy Thomas (8:26)

I want to talk about all of those things. It's funny because you said, we get this new president, and it's like it came out of nowhere. But of course, in this case, our current president is, you know, he's around during this. This is his. This is also his origin story. Last year, people will know. I was sort of obsessed with the Gods of New York by Jonathan Mailer. And. And that is like, you can't read that book. And not that book talks about this, about this trial. But, you know, Trump is like such a character in that book, and he. His origin story up until this moment is so tied to 1980s New York. And I think people remember or. Or have been told about the Central Park Five and his ads that he took out, but it goes way beyond that and his behavior in the 80s. And so I think in. You don't always have a situation where it's such a direct line from, like, 1980s New York to the White House, but in this case, you. I mean, you do well, and not just Trump.

Heather Ann Thompson (9:31)

I mean, Giuliani comes straight out of this case. We have a situation where the current media landscape of today, Fox News, the entire, frankly, misinformation media that has really taken over our landscape today, is rooted in this Bernie Getz story. So I, you know, I was myself really kind of intrigued to see the way these puzzle pieces were fitting together. And as you say, I mean, Donald Trump is. He was always a master at reading the room, and reading the room in 1984 meant, wow, here is some kind of unhinged guy who is taking the law in his own hands. And lo and behold, a whole lot of white people love what he just did.

Tracy Thomas (10:21)

Hmm.

Heather Ann Thompson (10:22)

That's an interesting theme to run with. And don't forget, like, this is a moment when we still have a quite liberal New York, at least in terms of the political apparatus. So we have to kind of ask ourselves, like, what were the levers that were able to be pulled to take this country really, from a quite liberal 60s, you know, for all of its warts and problems, but Nevertheless a liberal 60s, to the moment we live in right now? And this story, to me, felt like ground zero, one that happened before the story of the now exonerated Central park five and one that we just, we thought we understood. But. But.

Tracy Thomas (11:02)

So speaking of the media, the New York Post is sort of a large character in this book as, as a newspaper can be a person. But Rupert Murdoch buys the Post in the late 70s, and as institutions who change ownership sort of change identities, he really pushes the. The. The newspaper from a more liberal daily that's sort of not doing great to becoming this conservative rag that we know now, and this case is a huge part of it. But my question for you is like, since we are drawing parallels from this time to the present, do you think that this case was instructive for the media? Do you? Because other outlets, as you highlight in the book, like the New York Times, they covered the case in somewhat sensational fashion, but the Post was really out front. So do you think that. That the Post. That the Post coverage of the Bernie Getz case is instructive and is how we got here, or do you think it's more complicated?

Heather Ann Thompson (12:21)

No, I mean, I, you know, of course, every bit of history is so complicated. Right, sure.

Tracy Thomas (12:27)

Sure.

Heather Ann Thompson (12:28)

I do think it's absolutely fair to say that the thing about the Goetz case is it happens right at this very pivotal moment when Rupert Murdoch, who's just arrived in New York, he really wants his. His tabloid, the New York Post, to dominate the New York media scene. And then ultimately, of course, he has sights on dominating the entire US Media market. And he is watching this case very closely and, and watches that there is this appetite for not only supporting Getz, but to portraying him as this heroic vigilante. And that part of the deal in doing that is you got to villainize the people that he shot. And so the Post, it's. They're not the only ones. I mean, they're competing with the Daily News. So the Daily News is right there. Pretty quickly. They're. They're neck and neck in terms of the misinformation and the sen. Sensationalization. But, but to your point, they actually, I think, set the tone for, frankly, the mainstream press in really important ways. The New York Times, for example, first reports that these kids on this train are. Happen to be carrying screwdrivers, which they were. They were zipped up in their pockets because they were on their way to jimmy open some coin receptacles to just get a little bit cash. They are in terrible shape in the 80s. But the new York Post and the Daily News report that they were sharpened screwdrivers, that they were threatening this. This white guy with them, Bernie Goetz. None of that was true. But lo and behold, the sharpened screwdriver story makes its way into the mainstream press. And frankly, even today, that idea that that's what they were carrying has just survived, as has the idea that they were a criminal element that sort of got what they deserved.

Tracy Thomas (14:20)

Right. I do want to spend some time on the boys, but I have a few more questions.

Heather Ann Thompson (14:23)

Sure.

Tracy Thomas (14:24)

You. About how you approach writing something like this. Obviously, you're a historian. We know this about you. I guess, like, how are. Because you do recent history, right? Like you are writing history about things that have happened in your lifetime that have happened in many of your readers. Lifetimes. So what is the sort of approach in that case? Right. You're not writing about George Washington. Right. Like, it's not like someone could read this book. Someone could read your books and be like, that's not what happened. I remember like, you know, I read it in the New York Post. She's lying. So how do you. Or. Or does that matter? Or does that change how you approach it?

Heather Ann Thompson (15:04)

I think the approach, whether you're, if you're, if you're a historian and you're trying to. To do justice to your profession, you begin in the same way, which is that you take nothing for granted. You assume that you might know the story, but you don't know anything until you have combed every possible source that there might be out there. And part of that, part of that source space are newspapers. But we already know, I certainly knew from Attica, that you couldn't trust 80% of what you know, particularly when it came to racial conflict, because they always immediately took the story of whoever the perpetrator was, meaning the state of New York, in the case of Attica, or in this case, Bernie Goetz, they took that side. So, you know, you couldn't really trust that, but you still had to read every single issue. And then for me, it was a matter of just going and figuring out, like, who has the story of the victims. And that was a journey. It always is. Because you can't go to just whatever the archives and say, can I have box 30 and folder 12 and get the story of these people? They didn't leave their records. So I was digging in court files and, you know, one of the most interesting things I actually found was this, this crime victims bureau in New York City, which was this incredible moment doing this research when I realized that this, this bureau has been set up to take care of people who are victims of crime in New York city. And the 80s was brutal. It was really ugly. In terms of crime, Reagan, we are in the Reagan 80s, actually puts more money into this fund for crime victims. But, of course, everyone has a very specific idea about what a crime victim is, and they are not poor black teenagers from the South Bronx. So even though one of these kids ends up very, very badly wounded, another one, they're all in the icu, Right. When they apply to get some funding, because they are basically, one of them is permanently disabled. They are denied. Why? Because they're, quote, unquote, not really the victims. They are the villains. And to me, that was a source that I couldn't really. You know, if you don't see that, you don't really understand what's happening here.

Tracy Thomas (17:22)

Right, right. Speaking of your sources, obviously the newspapers, obviously these. These, like, contemporaneous documents, did you conduct your own interviews? Did you find new things? Who did you talk to? Where? What were you looking for?

Heather Ann Thompson (17:38)

Yeah, so, I mean, because I'm not a journalist, I'm actually usually pretty conversations with contemporary figures. And it's not because I will have conversations, and to the extent in my books, when I talk to people, you'll see them actually cited as conversations, not interviews, because I understand that we all remember our own past in very specific ways. In this case, I actually did think, I want to talk to the victims, and I want to talk to Bernie Goetz, and I sort of sent this spate of letters out to try to talk to everybody, and. And then I got to learn more about the case, and I realized, wait a minute. I can't talk to the victims of this case. Two of them are dead. One of them is now brain damage, and the other one has finally had some modicum of peace and doesn't want to talk to the media for. Very understandable. And I realized I don't want to even talk to Getz if I can't talk to his victims. So I just pulled back from wanting to actually talk to anybody, and that was actually kind of liberatory because it allowed me to go back to what was everybody, what he's saying in the moment, including the shooter, but also the trial transcripts, the witnesses, the everybody. And I. I was able to reconstruct it, I feel like, more in real time rather than in sort of a glowing retrospective.

Tracy Thomas (18:59)

Yeah. So there's. There are all these witnesses on the train. And you mentioned earlier that you sort of write your books in this, like, novelistic style, which you do. I. I have to say, you are one of the best at making history feel like, so readable and like Unput downable. But you have these, this cast of characters. And as I was reading the scene as you're setting up, like, who's on the train? I was like, wow, this is a story, right? Like, it just feels that way. How do you inter. Like, because there's so many moments where you say, like, so and so was feeling this, or they had a look of this on their face. What are you using to capture those moments? It's like their face looked like this in the trial or they, you know, what are you using and how are you interpreting it? And how are you making sure that you are not projecting what you see in a picture and like ascribing an intent behind it?

Heather Ann Thompson (19:55)

Yeah, so that's a really great question. I mean, actually, if you, if you look kind of carefully at the book, I'm pretty careful about those moments. Like, if I don't feel like I have a verifiable source, I'll say I do have words like likely or, you know, or, you know, as any mother would likely feel or something like that. Sure. And it isn't because I'm just trying to hedge. It's because I'm basing it on a whole lot of things at once. So when I say something, I'm usually not just flying by the seat of my pants. I'm trying to. Did someone else observe it this way? So, for example, there's times when Bernie gets us talking and a reporter will say, and he was looking for whatever forlornly down at his notepad. And so I will actually quote like someone else is observing him. And I'll. And I'll. And I'll redo that. But, you know, this guy gives, for example, a two hour confession. It's extraordinary. I mean, it's just, it's a chilling, chilling thing. And I have to treat that as a source, as I would anything. I'm interpreting. Right. I am. I have my own eyes. I have my own context. And when, for example, he is really hostile to the only female in that room who is the, you know, that she's the main assistant district attorney, I mean, it just comes through and I kind of feel an obligation to give the reader a sense of who this guy is. And his hostility is palpable. And so I kind of. It is a mix of all those things. But with the, with the train, it was so fascinating because, I mean, I'm literally in there in the trenches with my own diagram. Like, where are people sitting and how could they be looking? And could they have looked left or Right. And, you know, it becomes one of these crazy moments in my own office with.

Tracy Thomas (21:55)

The. You needed the tape on the floor in the courtroom own Slotnik moment. Yeah, yeah. Slotnick was the defense attorney for Bernie. Because I'm sure most of you probably don't know his name. I certainly didn't, but I had heard of him when, when he popped up in the book, I was like, shoot, I know this guy from somewhere. And I guess. I guess because he did the Mafia trials.

Heather Ann Thompson (22:17)

Yeah. Like, when people get to that part of the book, I mean, the thing that's so extraordinary about the trials is it's like, as they said at the time, it's like a piece of theater. Like, his attorney is unbelievable. He was a former attorney of the mob boss, John Gotti. I mean, he's got his $3,000 and he's Natalie dressed and he is ruthless in this courtroom. So. So, yeah, I think you might have heard of him from that.

Tracy Thomas (22:43)

I feel like I'd heard of him. I guess that's my other question. When you're writing a book, when you're picking a subject, how much are you thinking, this has to be an entertaining story versus I want to tell this story? Because, I mean, I've said this many times. I've read Blood in the Water twice. It is. I was like having nightmares. I couldn't put it down. I read it the first time, I think, in like five days. It's a 600 page book. I just couldn't stop. And similarly with this, I read this one in about three or four sittings. And so are you going in saying, like, I'd like to tell this story and then looking around and being like, oh, there's nothing there. It's not going to be entertaining enough? Or are you just like, I want to tell this story and I have to make it entertaining? If it's not like.

Heather Ann Thompson (23:28)

No, I mean, I think that the kind of sad truth is that when we are trained as historians, we are trained to, frankly, write rather dryly. And, you know, with all due respect to myself and everyone else. Yes.

Tracy Thomas (23:44)

Your entire industry doing this work.

Heather Ann Thompson (23:47)

I mean, I look back at my own dissertation, you know, I look like, oh, dear. Right. We're kind of trained that way. And there is this idea that somehow there is a greater sense of, you know, gravitas and truth and objectivity or something. If it's written in a rather relatively dry fashion, to me, I don't believe that any moment in history, it doesn't matter what it is, is dry. Right. I mean, if we just simply walk to the corner store and we're buying, you know, a loaf of bread. Our interactions in those 10 minutes, it takes us. We've met people, we've seen people, we've observed people. It's. It's part of the richness of our lives. So for me, when I decided to write Blood in the Water, it was critical to me that I had to narrate places where most Americans had never been, which was the prison in this case. You know, I could have just said, you know, there. The crime rate was really high in New York City in 1980, in my case. I really wanted you to feel it and to understand it and to experience it, because then perhaps we can better understand what happens on that train. So. So to me, it's not a false dichotomy or even really a choice. I think pretty much anything I'd put. Maybe if I was doing a. A book on, you know, the formation of the stock market, I don't know, maybe it'd be worth all. But even then, right. I can only imagine. Right. It's in a certain building and it's a certain vibe. So it's just kind of the way I. I prefer to write because it's the way I prefer to read.

Tracy Thomas (25:15)

Right.

Heather Ann Thompson (25:15)

I love reading books where I want to turn the page and find out what happens next.

Tracy Thomas (25:20)

Well, we. Thank you very much, because we do have to read these books, and yours are banging. I even hate to ask this question because I feel that I know the answer, but I just kind of want to hear what you have to say, which is, if this case happens today, is it different? And I think it is different. Like, it'll be. It would be handled differently. But, like, what do you think? What do you think?

Heather Ann Thompson (25:46)

You know, this is such a great question because on the one hand, I. Right now I'm in New York City and I live in Detroit, but right now I'm in New York City. And there's a great excitement on the ground in New York City because New York City has just elected this mayor that feels like we're turning the corner. Like the American people are tired of the, you know, flying in the face of the Constitution. We are tired of the violence. We are tired of the poverty and the high prices and all these things where we've ended up. And that gives me some degree of hope. So then I want to say, well, if this happened today, there'd be a public outcry. There'd be a, you know, people wouldn't tolerate it. They would rise up There's a part of me wants to say that. On the other hand, the thing that this book shows is that even at the time, of course, while Bernie Goetz is being celebrated and he's being lauded as the celebrity, particularly in the black community, but also the progressive white community, in the Latinx community, people are outraged.

Tracy Thomas (26:53)

Right.

Heather Ann Thompson (26:53)

And they are trying to get some justice for his victims and they are trying to speak up and they're trying to turn the needle in, you know, toward the arc of justice. Right, right. And they lose because the people who had the most to gain by pitting people against each other are at it, and they still are today. And in fact, after the Bernie Getz case, things are actually much worse. His trial will empower the National Rifle association, by the way, who funds him, who funds his defense to come to New York to make guns no longer just about sportsmanship and hunting, but actually about every American's right to carry it in self defense. The stand your ground laws that made it possible for George Zimmerman to murder Trayvon Martin come out of this case and this moment, Supreme Court decisions come out of this case in this moment. So I'm really afraid that just like the Daniel Penney case of only a few years ago shows us that if right now, today, if somebody did this on a New York City subway, I'm pretty sure that the media would be trying to figure out exactly what those people on that subway did to deserve it and celebrate the, the shooter.

Tracy Thomas (28:13)

Yeah, I, I tend to agree with that. I think, I think the way, like a big way that I think this case would be different is a, it probably wouldn't have risen to the, to the size and like national, like the Daniel Penney case ends up becoming like a big deal. But I think there's probably people who are listening now who are like, wait, who was that again?

Heather Ann Thompson (28:34)

Wait.

Tracy Thomas (28:34)

Which got like in a way that I think at the time everybody knew who Bernie Getz was. But I also think that race would have been, would be even more explicitly talked about now in a way that it was sort of like black people were talking about, but white people were sort of like, oh, I don't like crime. Like, oh, I think now you would have it at least be discussed. And I think that that might change the way the trial shakes out. Like how the jurors, the pressures that they might feel in it would add a context to that. I. Is my. Yeah, I don't know that it changes any outcomes. I don't know that it changes anything. But I do think you would have more people. Like, I think the defense would probably use it more. I think that the prosecution would use it more. Like, I think it would have become a bigger piece in the story.

Heather Ann Thompson (29:29)

Yeah. I mean, it's entirely possible. And frankly, for all the really kind of horrifying reasons, which is that this case has become so normalized by now, or I should say cases like it have become so normalized by now, you know, we can storm the entire U.S. capitol and, you know, everyone is pardoned. I mean, the rule of law now is out the window. Yeah. And race is. You know, from the White House on down, people are absolutely unchecked in their racist remarks. But. And this is. This matters. And I think it's. You're right to actually really elevate this. It is also the case that there is a much louder and, you know, really focal presence coming from the other direction that says, this is racist, this is unjust, and we can't run a society like this. And so I do feel like this is a. We are perhaps in that kind of changing moment. And I think in order to be in that moment, we've got to figure out how we got here. And to me, that was why. The political context of this book, which I will admit there are times when I'm sure it feels a bit bogging down to people reading it, but the reason I felt like it was so important to rethink that Reagan 80s is because prior to that moment, that what we call the Reagan revolution, we as a society had for many decades kind of been elevating the rule of law. And, you know, with the Warren Court and with the civil rights movement, and there was a lot of backlash for. But there was a kind of a public sense that this is the direction the country has to move.

Tracy Thomas (31:20)

Yeah.

Heather Ann Thompson (31:21)

And the Reagan administration just kind of turns this all on its head. And as it literally takes, you know, resources out of the public, its genius was to say, yeah, you are suffering badly, but not because we have taken the tax base and made it much more favorable to rich people. You're suffering because of those lazy, undeserving, criminal black and brown people. And it was. In some respects, it was genius. Genius. Because it has. It is. It has led us here, but it has also led us, like I said, to this New York moment where people are. It's wearing thin. People like, you know, really. You know, really, the. The reason why we're in such bad financial shape is because of those people over in the South Bronx that are even worse shape than I am, really.

Tracy Thomas (32:14)

Right.

Heather Ann Thompson (32:14)

It's wearing thin, I hope.

Tracy Thomas (32:17)

Yeah. Okay, let's take a quick break and then I want to talk about the title. Valentine's Day is upon us and I've got love on the brain. Love for books. Duh. Of course. Hello. Did you forget what podcast you're listening to? I love bringing you all great reads, exclusive author interviews and behind the scenes books book gossip. But I can only do that with your support. Over on Patreon and Substack. Our Stacks Patreon community, also known as the Stacks Pack, is where you can go for book club meetups, a private, very active discord, and a year long mega reading challenge to help you achieve all your reading goals. Plus you also get that monthly bonus episode. Now over on the Substack, you can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked where I keep the book conversations going. I also give you a healthy dose of sports and pop culture. Definitely some hot takes happening over there. And again, that bonus episode, if you don't have a few dollars to spare, don't worry, there are free options on the Substack and the Patreon to get you a little extra Stacks magic. Making this podcast is a total team effort and by supporting my Patreon and my substack, you allow me to support my amazing team that makes the show possible every single week. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers and support this indie podcast, come hang out with me on Patreon Substack or both. I would love to have you. And since we're talking about love, you can gift subscriptions to the Patreon and the Substack for that special reader in your life. For the Stacks pack, head to patreon.com the stacks and for the newsletter head to Tracy thomas.substack.com and also there are links to both in the show notes. Okay, see you in the Stacks. February doesn't have to be all about romance. It's also the perfect time to show yourself some extra love. For me, that means indulging in life's little comforts like getting a good night's sleep and of course making time to slow down and curl up with a good book. I'm in a season of my life where I am looking for peak relaxation. And if there's one brand I'm turning to to make these moments at home feel 10 times more luxurious, it's Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth is all about elevating the everyday with high quality pajamas, blankets and bedding that take self care to the next level. Can we Just talk for a moment about their bamboo pajama set. I used to be a sweatpants person, but in 2026, I'm trying really hard to be a person who dresses for sleep. And their jammies are silky soft. So lightweight. They keep me cool all night long, but they're not so thin that I feel cold when I'm wearing them in the morning. Cozy Earth's products are not only insanely comfortable, but they're also risk free. They offer a 100 night sleep trial that gives you 100 nights to try their bedding before deciding to keep it or return it or exchange it. Plus they offer a 10 year warranty. Give yourself or someone special some extra love. This month with Cozy Earth, you can use my code, the stacks for up to 20 off. And if you get a post purchase survey, please be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Indulge in life's little comforts with products that make even the simplest moments at home feel like luxury. Okay, we're back. I want to talk about the title. The title is Fear and Fury. The Reagan 80s, the Bernie gets Shootings and the Rebirth of White Rage. So let's just start with the main title. Why Fear and Fury? Where did that come from? What sparks it play on words, right?

Heather Ann Thompson (36:01)

I mean, fear as fear as something that is curated and cultivated and particularly to make white people fearful and so angry and rage filled and, you know, willing to explode with, you know, much less provocation than they had probably since, you know, the era of Jim Crow, but also fear, because if you are black or brown in America, you have come from a moment where the President of the United States, you know, again, with all the warts, with all the flaws, someone like Lyndon Johnson is essentially saying, yeah, we have a Civil Rights act of 1965. People have the right to vote. Racial discrimination is something this country cannot abide or stand behind. And then the 80s comes and people are terrified. There is this unleashed violence against black and brown people across America and this book, and that's the more painful parts of it. I mean, I walk us, unfortunately, through a lot of this. Bernie Goetz is the signature of it, but it is by no means the only one. And it touches off, for example, in New York, brutal mob violence, really, mob violence against black teenagers in Howard beach, in Bensonhurst. And of course, you know, go to the other side of the country. You can't make sense of something like the Rodney King case. You can't make sense of the level of absolute unleashed rage on black people, which creates Fear. So it is a play on words of at all levels.

Tracy Thomas (37:48)

And I feel like one of the things that I started thinking about a lot with the fear piece is also the way that our media functions through using fear. It's like fear and disgust are like the two big touchstones. I felt like that the out, like, the media outlets were using, and I feel like that's the same now. Right? Like, there's so many ways to report on what's going on in this country, but it feels like every headline is trying to just make me have a nervous breakdown. Like, it just wants me to be stressed out. It wants me to feel scared and closed off and, like, worried in a way that I. I just don't believe that that's how it has to be. Like, I don't believe that that's how things need to be reported on, but that it's a choice that American media outlets have. Have decided is the most useful for them to make money.

Heather Ann Thompson (38:36)

Well, they saw that. They saw that in this case. That's. That's one of the reasons why this is. Is so instructive. I mean, this is. This is media gold.

Tracy Thomas (38:44)

Right?

Heather Ann Thompson (38:44)

You can stand behind that kind of another man's ostensible fear. Even though Bernie Goetz himself said, look, this had nothing to do with the robbery. I didn't like the gleam in this kid's eyes.

Tracy Thomas (38:54)

Yeah, but.

Heather Ann Thompson (38:55)

But it's his fear that that kind of becomes celebrated. And it's. Yeah, it's media. It's media gold. It's also a broader problem, I think, with the. With the media in general, which is there's this idea that if you only have, whatever, a few lines, if you don't have a lot of space, you got no room for context, and it just. It just simply isn't true. I can't tell you how many times, both during doing Attica, but also doing this book, when people will say to me, they'll ask me, you know, well, do you know? Do you. I feel like, you know, I'd like to bring in, like, Bernie Goetz, like, what is his side of the story? Like, you know, we'd like to hear from him. Okay, great, do that. But I have yet to hear anyone say. I really feel like we need to take, you know, talk to the four boys that he shot and get their side of the story. That's just, you know, that's just journalism 101. But the assumption is that he's already the center of the story.

Tracy Thomas (39:54)

Right. That it's his story and that. Right, right. And that his reasoning is, like, important. Well, you won't get that question from me, I can promise you that. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about Bernie Getz, but none of them is wanting to know his side of the story, because for one reason, we actually do have his side of the story multiple times, very consistently. Like, that's the thing that is confusing to me when I read about this case. And, like, obviously it's in the news now because your book is out. There's another book out on the topic. I just feel like it's. Feels very zeitgeisty right now. And I just. I don't have questions about that part. Like, he said it at the time. He's been saying the same thing since. Like, his story has not changed. So I'm not. I'm gonna assume. My dad used to always say that when people lie, the story changes, but when you tell the truth, it doesn't. So I'm gonna just assume that what he's been saying for the last 40 plus years is the truth because he keeps saying the same thing. I don't. I don't. Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm dumb. I don't know.

Heather Ann Thompson (40:55)

It's just not as. It's just not very interesting to only tell that one side of it. You know, I didn't know until, like, dug into this book. Like, one of the main victims in this case, the reason he ends up in public housing is because he's living with his mom and dad as a kid in Far Rockaway, Queens. He is normal American kid living in a. In a house. His dad goes out to work every day. His mom is taking care of the. The kids. And his dad has his truck basically carjacked. And his dad is killed trying to hold on to this car because he understands that's how he makes his family a living. The reason they end up in public housing is because suddenly, in her early 30s, his mother is a widow raising these four boys. So those stories matter. If then fast forward, you know, 15 years, the media is saying, or Getz is saying, actually, all of this gets. Says, you know, Shirley, kb, Darryl's mother, she should have just had an abortion. He should never have been born.

Tracy Thomas (42:03)

Like, what? Right.

Heather Ann Thompson (42:05)

But that doesn't even hit until he's like, who was Daryl Cavey?

Tracy Thomas (42:08)

Right. Right. You frame this book through the story of the Cabey family. Like, that's kind of where we start and that's definitely where we end. And I think, you know, having read Blood in the Water, I know that that is, you know, what you do. And listening to you talk, I know that you. You are interested in telling these stories that have been either misconstrued over time or untold. There have been. I mean, in the case of Attica, even when we spoke there, you were. They were waiting for documents to be released, right? Like that. You were telling this history that's 50 plus years old and yet was still. Is still coming out. But I want. I mean, I guess the question is, like, what? Why is it important to you to tell the stories and rescue the stories of people who have been erased by, like, horrible violence that has been done to them?

Heather Ann Thompson (43:07)

You know, I hesitate to make this about my own biography, but that's really the truth. I grew up as a kid in the city of Detroit in the 70s and into the early 80s. And, you know, Detroit was in serious, serious trouble financially. It had been absolutely abandoned because of white flight out of the city. The tax base had completely disappeared. This city was suffering. I was one of the few remaining white families in the city, but that became my city. That was my place. And yet at the time, the media, everybody was like, detroit, the murder capital of the world, the worst place in the world. Why would anyone go to Detroit? I would see white people that I knew outside of the city, and they would say, oh, my God, how do you live there? Do you carry a weapon? Like, how do you. How do you survive that? And yet, to me, this was my community. This was my home. This was the school, the high school I went to. This was my neighborhood. Everybody that I knew, everybody that was smarter than me, everybody that I wanted to be like, was not white. So to me, it was always this kind of baseline. Like, I don't want to tell the story that people want to hear. I want to tell the story that nobody knows that matters so consequentially to the way that this history actually unfolded. So my first book was actually about Detroit. And, you know, and then it's just kind of evolved from there. But my inclination internally is, you know, there is a dominant story, and it's always going to be told by the people with the most power. But that doesn't make it the story. And it doesn't certainly explain very much in the end of the day how we all have moved to the place where we are.

Tracy Thomas (45:00)

Do you know why your family stayed in Detroit?

Heather Ann Thompson (45:02)

You know, because my parents were their own kind of rebel radical selves. They came from a tiny, small town in Kansas. You know, I had a dad who was trying to, you know, Help desegregate the Iola city pool way, way back in the 50s. And so I'm sure I came out of a tradition of, you know, I can remember being driving in Detroit as a kid, and my. And seeing, you know, homeless people by the side of the road. And my dad was always someone that, you know, sort of said, you know, why does that. You know, when we were kids, like, you know, why. Why does that have to happen? You know, why. Why are some people sitting there with nothing to eat? And so I'm sure it came from my own family, but at the end of the day, it also just simply came because racism is so. So present in America. And I frankly never felt that. That white people just told the truth. Sure, sure. About the way in which it actually worked. And so I'm sure that's the biography. But at the end of the day, I also think, like, you can't be a good historian or storyteller or journalist or whatever if you don't always ask, what is the other side of the story? Like, what's the story? We don't know. Sorry, that was very long.

Tracy Thomas (46:19)

No, no, no, it's great. And it actually leads me to this other. Going back to the title, going back to the subtitle, the last little comma section is and the Rebirth of White Rage. And I know when I first saw the book, I said, let's. That's, like, such an interesting. Rebirth is such an interesting choice because, like, if you'd asked me, I would say, like, I don't think it ever died. Right. And in the book. In. In the book, you do sort of explain that. And so for people who are listening, who haven't read the book yet, who are sort of like, what's this lady talking about? Do you want to tell them why you call it a rebirth?

Heather Ann Thompson (46:50)

Oh, gosh. Well, let me just say that there was lots and lots and lots of discussion and thought, I'm sure the rebirth. Should it be religitimization? Should it be just plain old legitimization or normalization? Like, we just want. You know, it was so much thought that went into that. The ultimate answer is this country, foundationally and persistently and consistently, is about a story about white rage. Yes. So that's a given to me, and I hope I really establish that in the book. But it is also true that this history has gone through very, very distant, distinct political moments when either that is celebrated and unleashed legally and absolutely seen as the norm and the way we should be as a country and identify as A country and other moments where it is unbefitting of us as a country, even while it still exists and even while it still is there, is unleashed, is ugly. And so one of the critical things that starts to happen, in no small part because of pressure from the people who experience that rage and that racism is it we began to move the needle. I mean, that was the power of the civil rights movement was to say, you know, it was the power of Dr. King, it was the power of Fannie Lou Hamer, it was the power of these activists to say, look, this is not liberty and justice for all. This is not true equality under the law, so let's make it so. And it creates a moment of possibility. It's one of the reasons why there is so much that happens in the 60s and 70s, things like, for example, the American with Disabilities Act. There's this idea that you may be disabled, but that doesn't mean you're less of an American. It doesn't mean you should be picked on. It doesn't mean you should be isolated. That moment of possibility was the moment that begins, that is really under attack and begins to erode. That's the racial piece of it. But if I might just jump ahead, the other part of the title is about the Reagan 80s. Sure. And that's because. Why do we do it in this moment? Because it's during the Reagan 80s that there is a sea change in the way we actually run this country. Not just culturally, not just, you know, kind of unleashing this rage and saying it's okay, but actually, economically, we start to chip away at this notion that the government should be there for people, that we need a safety net, that, you know, rich people should pay substantially into this body politic that we all need. And it was deliberate. And I don't. And it's not a conspiracy. It's just they were very clear that that's what they wanted to do, but they also knew that to do that a lot, a lot of people were going to lose a lot, including just ordinary white working class voters. And rage became a distracting way for them to get this stuff passed. And it was very, very effective.

Tracy Thomas (49:56)

And I honestly can't believe I haven't said this yet in today's conversation, but Ronald Reagan, one of the greatest villains of American history. I mean, truly, truly a monster. I think that we should continue to say that despite the fact that we also have a current monster in the White House like that, that just because Trump is awful doesn't mean that Reagan also wasn't just a fucking nightmare. Your book really lays that out early and often. But I just want to make sure we're on Mike. At least I'm on Mic saying it. You don't have to say it, but you can just, you know.

Heather Ann Thompson (50:33)

Well, and again, this is why I began when in the program and I was saying, look, you know, no matter what your political sensibilities are, I think that you'll find something really hopeful and helpful and interesting about learning this, because it actually isn't. If it were only Reagan and if it were only Trump. The truth is what happens in the 80s is there's such an assault on this idea that we should take care of each other. There was such an assault on this idea that there should be public schools and public health clinics and public roads and public anything. And we've all, all of us have paid a huge price for that. And unfortunately, every president after Reagan just doubled down on that. Every Democrat.

Tracy Thomas (51:19)

That's right.

Heather Ann Thompson (51:20)

And there's a bit of a reprieve when we get Obama, and certainly that's because he's responding to this groundswell of activism. But we've been doing this now for 50 years. And so Trump just, he just signed the check. I mean, he just, you know, sealed the deal, if you will.

Tracy Thomas (51:39)

Right, right. Is there anything that's not in this book that you wish could have been.

Heather Ann Thompson (51:47)

You know, I really wish that I could have learned even more, actually, about those, those young men that ended up on that train that day. And I wish I would have also had a better sense of, I don't know, like, I don't want to give away the trial. It's one of, to me, the most dramatic parts of the book. But I wish I would have known a little bit more, like, about why the jury makes the decision. It does. I mean, it's just kind of the whole thing is just mind blowing at the end. So that. But really, I'd say the victim, you know, one of them ends up killing himself on the anniversary of this event. The other one is now, you know, still remains brain damaged and paralyzed. Another one died very young after becoming extremely drug addicted after this horror show. I mean, the only surviving one who, you know, I'm sure to all of the people he meet would never even know this had happened to him, I'm sure is still traumatized. And he doesn't want to talk to anybody because he doesn't trust the media. So I wish I could have rescued even more of that story, to be honest. It's a. It is terrible. To have had to have dug so. So kind of in every crack to find their story. And I think you're, you know that your listeners will see that if they pick up the book. But there are amazing stories nevertheless. I mean, for example, the hate mail that pours into these, these.

Tracy Thomas (53:24)

Oh, my God, there's so much.

Heather Ann Thompson (53:26)

It was just really something.

Tracy Thomas (53:27)

And so that moment, those moments when you're, like, talking about the hate mail, what made me be like, see, people think it's just social media. It's like, no, the way it's being delivered nowadays through social media. But it's the same stuff, if not even worse.

Heather Ann Thompson (53:41)

Oh, my gosh, yes, because they have to know your. Your home address, which, by the way, why do they even know the home address of these, these kids that he has shot? Because the media, their home address. And so these horrific, threatening, and by the way, overtly racist, every single one of them messages come to these families, not just to the, not just to the victims, but to their sisters and their brothers and their mothers. And so, yeah, I would have loved to have been able to talk to them, actually. That's the one that's. I, I do wish for that.

Tracy Thomas (54:20)

Yeah, I feel that, I guess you mentioned the jury. I know we have to wrap up in a second, but you mentioned the jury, and I, as I was reading the book, I just wanted to ask you, because again, in Blood in the Water, there's a lot of legal stuff. How did you get comfortable understanding all of the legal stuff? Did you turn to lawyers? Like, it's just a lot, you know, and you're excited explaining, like, reasonableness and obviously, like, the, the idea of, like, what would a reasonable person do in this situation? Reasonably. To be reasonable is like a big, big part of the case. I, you explain it, and I think I get it, but it's hard when you're using the same word reasonable in like, 15 different ways to explain reasonable. But I'm just wondering, like, how do you, how comfortable. How do you know that you're comfortable? What's the process for you to get, like, the legal stuff?

Heather Ann Thompson (55:13)

Yeah, no, that, that, that I have to say it's a. Both in Attica and in this book, I never feel completely comfortable. So I'm always leaning on people who know the law far better than I do to try to make sure that I understand it. And this is just my colleagues and, and, you know, in this case, you know, one of the lawyers in this case I did have some very specific questions for.

Tracy Thomas (55:36)

But which one waples no in this.

Heather Ann Thompson (55:39)

Case, it was actually KB because I. That this. KB's lawyer. This is kind of later in the book.

Tracy Thomas (55:46)

Oh, the civil.

Heather Ann Thompson (55:47)

Yeah, but the, but the, the good news is that there was actually, at the time, quite a bit of discussion of what the jury would have to consider. So I was able to actually go in and see quite a bit of that. But most importantly, I have the transcripts and I could see, see this being hammered out in real time, but by both sides, the judge. I could see the appeals, I could see the, the arguments being made by both sides. So it was just, it was very time consuming, but very much worth it because at the end of the day, it just left me even more actually bamboozled by the jury's ultimate decision. We'll see what your, what your readers think, but I feel like it is a, a fascinating case of what your eyes are seeing and what you are hearing and what people are deciding they just heard and saw are completely out of sync. And that was interesting for me. Right. Because it wasn't just a matter like today we. Oh, there's the body cam footage. Doing one thing. And yet people are seeing something. No, no, this. There is a long history of this. Seeing what you want to see. Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (56:56)

Okay. So last time we talked, I asked you the famous question of what word you can't spell correctly. You told me tomorrow. Is there any word you'd like to add to the public record or would you like to stick with tomorrow?

Heather Ann Thompson (57:06)

Substantive?

Tracy Thomas (57:08)

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Wow. We're stepping up.

Heather Ann Thompson (57:11)

How many T's are in substance?

Tracy Thomas (57:14)

I have not a clue. I wasn't even sure that was a word until just now. Okay. And then my other question is, I asked you last time about, about your writing process, how you like to write, how often. And you told me many things about how you can write in chaos. Because when you started your PhD, I believe, at Princeton, you had a five month old baby and it was just get it done. But what you didn't tell me when I went back to the tapes from last time was if you have any writing snacks or beverages. So you are back five years later to answer this question. This is really why you're here.

Heather Ann Thompson (57:50)

I am a terrible coffeeaholic. So I've got the brand new cup of coffee that gets stone cold as I get into the middle of everything I write. So there's always the ubiquitous cup of coffee.

Tracy Thomas (58:01)

Okay.

Heather Ann Thompson (58:01)

And I have to say, I'm a candy snacker. Like, I need the, whatever, the, the Mike and Ikes, the Raisinets, something Sweet. But distract me from. From.

Tracy Thomas (58:14)

I knew I liked you, Heather. I knew I liked you. Okay. And then this is. This is sort of where we ended last time, which is we're getting a Move book about the Move bombings. We're still getting the book. You're still working on it?

Heather Ann Thompson (58:27)

Absolutely. All the research is done for that book. I am knee deep into writing it, actually, so I'm looking forward to returning to that book because that book, to me, feels like it's going to be maybe more akin to the Attica book in the sense that it is kind of this grand saga of a pretty extraordinary event that happens in Philadelphia in 1985. And like all of my books, I think it will try to complicate what we think we know. So hopefully. Hopefully I can get back now to that.

Tracy Thomas (59:00)

Okay, can't wait. Whenever that's done, you just let me know.

Heather Ann Thompson (59:02)

You come back here.

Tracy Thomas (59:05)

And then, for people who love Fear and Fury, what other books might you recommend to them that are in conversation with it?

Heather Ann Thompson (59:12)

One of my favorite, or actually two of my favorite books. One of them is a new book by LaShawn Harris, and it's about the story of Eleanor Bumpers, who is a woman who lives in the South Bronx who is killed by the police. She's actually evicted from one of these buildings like the ones that the boys live in, and then killed. Incredible story that LaShawn Harris wrote. And the other one is Ben Shansfield's book Born in Flames, which is also about the role that businesses and insurance companies and really, capital played in creating all that horror in the South Bronx that the boys lived with.

Tracy Thomas (59:49)

This is. I have, like, a little side reading project going on right now, which is 1980s New York. Yeah. After I read Gods of New York, it made me want to read and, like everything. And so both of I started the Bench Anfield and had to pause it because I had to read something else for work. But I will go back to that. And then I have Sean's. What's it called, though?

Heather Ann Thompson (60:08)

Tell. Tell Her.

Tracy Thomas (60:10)

Tell Her Story. Say it's Tell Her Story, I think.

Heather Ann Thompson (60:13)

Is what it is.

Tracy Thomas (60:14)

Tell Her Story. You're right.

Heather Ann Thompson (60:15)

Yeah. And the other one that I'm looking forward to is Colson Whitehead has got a book coming out on the 80s as well, so.

Tracy Thomas (60:21)

Oh, that's. This new one is. Yes, yes. But did you read the Michael Stewart one, the Man Nobody Killed? I read that last year and I really liked that.

Heather Ann Thompson (60:29)

I think it's just so. You know, I write those hard books, but I also. I was just sort of kind of amazed at how much there is out there on this horror, this horrible moment. And that is one of them. Absolutely worth reading as well.

Tracy Thomas (60:45)

Yeah. And so now I'm like, I gotta find a Howard beach book. I gotta find a Yusuf Hawkins book. Right. Like, there's, like, all of these.

Heather Ann Thompson (60:53)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (60:54)

Anyways. But there's. But another book that's coming out this year, I think February 3rd, it's out, is Bonfire of the Murdochs, which is about the Murdoch family, which now I want to read because it feels like that's in conversation with this. Like, I just have kind of carving out this new obsession point for me, which is like 1980s New York madness.

Heather Ann Thompson (61:18)

Yes. Yes. Well. And that's, I think, why I was so drawn to lashawn's Teller story and to Born in Flames. Because the thing about New York, I mean, I know that not everything is New York, but it is really interesting that this current moment we're in, so many of the players, the economic players, the political players, the cultural players are really. That's where they are in this moment. And so if you're interested, there's just definitely. We need a. We need a Tracy reading list on the 80s.

Tracy Thomas (61:46)

I think I'm going. I think if I need my nonfiction reading guide, there will be one. But also coming out later this year is a book called man in the Mirror. And that's about. That's from. I can never say his name correctly. Adnan Guerra Hedis. And that's about the Jordan Neely.

Heather Ann Thompson (62:02)

Yes, that's right.

Tracy Thomas (62:03)

Subway situation that comes out in September. So I will. I will be reading my third book about vigilante violence on the subway this year because, you know, I got a. I love a theme.

Heather Ann Thompson (62:15)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (62:16)

Okay, last question for you. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read Fear and Fury, who would you want it to be?

Heather Ann Thompson (62:24)

Shirley KB Yeah. Just to make a. Just to center the story of her son. Because from the very beginning, she just kept at the battle for justice. Because as she kept saying, I just want people to see who my boy really was or who we really, you know, tell his story.

Tracy Thomas (62:44)

And that she. And she was so incredulous to how it was all playing out, which I found, like, so relatable. Right. As I'm reading the story, I keep being like, yes, somebody listen to this woman. Like, she is very. She seems to be correct here.

Heather Ann Thompson (63:02)

Yeah.

Tracy Thomas (63:04)

Yeah. And she passed away.

Heather Ann Thompson (63:06)

She did. She ended up. Pretty much Spent her. The entire rest of her life had to be devoted to taking care of her son who was subsequently paralyzed and brain damaged. But, and her greatest fear, of course, was that, you know, what would, what would happen to him when she was no longer alive. But it, but it seems that he has, you know, obviously sisters and, and brothers or a sister and brothers. And so he has a community. But yeah, I wish that, I wish that, I wish that there was. I always wish this, right when I write these books and you see the horror, trauma and pain that people go through in the moment, I always kind of wish for them, that they could kind of step back later and see that, that, you know, the history does ultimately get told.

Tracy Thomas (63:48)

Yeah. Thank you. Well, everyone, the book is called Fear and Fury, the Reagan 80s, the Bernie Getz Shootings, and the Rebirth of White Rage. This has been a conversation with Heather and Thompson. Heather, thank you so much for being here.

Heather Ann Thompson (64:01)

Thanks for having me back. This is great.

Tracy Thomas (64:04)

Of course. And everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Heather and Thompson for joining the show and a huge thank you to Susie Williams for helping to make this episode possible. Our book club pick for February is Indigo by Beverly Jenkins and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, February 25th with Jasmine Guillory. If you love the Stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com thestacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you are subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please take a moment to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok and you can check out our website@thestackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.