Podcast Summary: The Stacks – Ep. 411: "I Don’t Believe Any Moment in History Is Dry" with Heather Ann Thompson

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Heather Ann Thompson (author, historian, professor, activist, Pulitzer Prize winner)
Date: February 11, 2026
Episode Theme: How the 1984 Bernard Goetz subway shooting reflects the roots and ongoing impact of white rage, racial violence, and media manipulation, as explored in Thompson’s new book Fear and Fury: The Reagan 80s, the Bernie Getz Shootings, and the Rebirth of White Rage.

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Heather Ann Thompson’s latest work, Fear and Fury, which dissects the 1984 subway shooting by Bernard Goetz in New York City and its broader legacy on racial tension, media sensationalism, and the rise of white rage in Reagan-era America. Traci and Heather discuss the importance of re-centering victims’ narratives, draw parallels between past and present vigilante violence, examine how media shapes public perception, and reflect on the cyclical and persistent nature of white rage in American history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Incident & Its Legacy

• Background on Goetz Shooting
  Heather summarizes the 1984 Goetz shooting: "A white guy, loner, shoots down four black teenagers, and then he escapes in the tunnels of the New York City subway system. There's a manhunt...trials...I wanted to go back and dig into it because I suspected that it had a lot to say about where we are today.” (03:49)

• Why Tell This Story Now?
  Heather had been researching another book but felt a sense of emergency: “It feels like everything is coming apart at the seams...Random citizen can just gun down their fellow citizens and not just be celebrated for it, but actually be legally vindicated when they do it.” (06:38)

• Re-centering Victims
  Heather admits she herself, like many, couldn’t have named the Goetz victims and was compelled to correct this erasure: “I wanted to rescue the story of the victims in this book...I didn't know who they were. I knew who this guy was.” (04:30)

Media’s Role in Shaping Narrative

• The New York Post’s Influence & Sensationalism
  Heather: “Rupert Murdoch...wants his tabloid, the New York Post, to dominate...He is watching this case very closely and, and watches that there is this appetite for not only supporting Getz, but to portraying him as this heroic vigilante...And that part of the deal in doing that is you got to villainize the people that he shot.” (12:28)

• Mainstream Media’s Complicity
  Even the New York Times picked up the narrative seeds planted by tabloids: “The Post and the Daily News report that they were sharpened screwdrivers, that they were threatening this white guy...None of that was true. But lo and behold, the sharpened screwdriver story makes its way into the mainstream press.” (13:40)

Parallels to Current Events

• Vigilante Violence & Stand Your Ground
  Discussion connects the Goetz shooting to contemporary incidents (e.g., Daniel Penny, Kyle Rittenhouse): "The stand your ground laws that made it possible for George Zimmerman to murder Trayvon Martin come out of this case and this moment." (27:53)

• Racialized Framing of Crime
  “His [Goetz's] trial will empower the National Rifle Association, by the way, who funds him, who funds his defense to come to New York to make guns...about every American's right to carry it in self defense.” – Heather (27:54)

The Historian’s Craft

• Why Write as a Narrative?
  Heather rejects “dry” historical writing: “I don't believe that any moment in history, it doesn't matter what it is, is dry....So for me...it was critical to me that I had to narrate places where most Americans had never been, which was the prison in this case." (23:47)

• Handling Recent History & Research
  Heather notes the particular challenge of recent history: “Someone could read your books and be like, that's not what happened. I remember...So how do you...Or does that matter?” (14:24)
  She responds: “You take nothing for granted. You assume that you might know the story, but you don't know anything until you have combed every possible source.” (15:04)

• Limitations on Victim Testimony
  Heather tried to speak with victims and Goetz but reconsidered: “I can't talk to the victims of this case. Two of them are dead. One...brain damage...one...finally had some modicum of peace and doesn't want to talk...I realized I don't want to even talk to Getz if I can't talk to his victims.” (17:38)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On "No Dry Moments in History":
  “I don't believe that any moment in history...is dry.” – Heather Ann Thompson (23:47)

• On Cyclical White Rage:
  “This country, foundationally and persistently and consistently, is about a story about white rage...There are very distinct political moments when...that is celebrated and unleashed legally and absolutely seen as the norm.” (46:50)

• On Media & Fear:
  “Fear as something that is curated and cultivated and particularly to make white people fearful and so angry and rage filled and, you know, willing to explode with much less provocation than they had probably since...Jim Crow.” (36:01)

• On Seeking the Victims’ Stories:
  “Those stories matter. If then fast forward, you know, 15 years, the media is saying, or Getz is saying...Shirley, kb, Darryl's mother, she should have just had an abortion. He should never have been born.” (41:01)

• Hope in a Changing Moment:
  “It is also the case that there is a much louder and, you know, really focal presence coming from the other direction that says, this is racist, this is unjust, and we can't run a society like this.” (29:45)

Notable Segment Timestamps

• The Goetz Shooting Revisited & Why Now: 03:49–08:26
• Media’s Role & The Post’s Sensationalism: 11:02–15:04
• Methodology – Recent History, Sources, Victim Narratives: 15:04–19:55
• Novelistic History, Avoiding ‘Dry’ Narration: 23:28–25:20
• How Would This Play Out Today?: 25:20–29:29
• Reagan 80s, White Rage, & Political Shift: 31:20–33:00
• Title Meaning (‘Fear and Fury’, ‘Rebirth of White Rage’): 36:01–38:36, 46:50
• Writing Process, Research, Legal Elements: 54:20–56:56
• Heather’s Personal Motivation & Detroit Upbringing: 43:07–46:19
• Closing Reflections, Book Recs for Further Reading: 59:12–61:46

Book Recommendations & Further Reading

• LaShawn Harris, Tell Her Story (re: Eleanor Bumpers killing in the South Bronx) (59:12)
• Ben Shansfield, Born in Flames (on South Bronx, businesses, insurance, and urban decay)
• Colson Whitehead – forthcoming book on the 80s (60:15)
• Jonathan Mahler, The Gods of New York (reference point for 1980s NYC, Trump, etc.)
• Michael Stewart, The Man Nobody Killed
• Bonfire of the Murdochs (on Rupert Murdoch family and influence)
• Adnan Gharahani, Man in the Mirror (on the Jordan Neely subway killing; upcoming)

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “I wanted to rescue the story of the victims...” – Heather (04:30)
• “Rupert Murdoch...wants his tabloid...to dominate...portraying him as this heroic vigilante.” – Heather (12:28)
• “The stand your ground laws that made it possible for George Zimmerman to murder Trayvon Martin come out of this case...” – Heather (27:53)
• “I don't believe that any moment in history...is dry.” – Heather (23:47)
• “Fear as something that is curated and cultivated and particularly to make white people fearful...” – Heather (36:01)

Guest’s Reflection: Who Should Read This Book?

• Who Would Heather Most Want to Read This Book?
  “Shirley KB. Just to center the story of her son...she just kept at the battle for justice.” (62:24)

Tone & Style

The conversation is passionate, urgent, and deeply engaged with the political and emotional stakes of historical storytelling, foregrounding empathy, justice, and the ongoing relevance of history to today’s culture wars and racial violence.