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- [00:01]
A
Day or night. VRBoCare is here 24, 7 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.
- [00:31]
B
One of the things like people talk about a lot in like sort of craft, especially if you're doing, you know, more than one point of view, is like no head hopping, right? Which is like moving back and forth between people's heads. But like she does this and it works great constantly, you know, like there's a whole lot of head hopping in this book and it's great. Most of my books are dual point of view. If there's a scene where like he's pushing her up against the wall, right, I want to be in her head so that we know she likes that and that she is encouraging that. That's something that I think about a lot.
- [01:10]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and today is the Stacks Book Club Day. I am joined by New York Times best selling romance novelist Jasmine Guillory to discuss our February pick Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. This book is set in the 1850s. It is a historical romance that follows Hester Wyat, a formerly enslaved conductor on Michigan's Underground Railroad who is tasked with protecting Galen Vachon, a vital member of the Northern Network. As he recovers from injuries, their initial clash gives way to deepening romantic feelings. Today, Jasmine and I talk all about this novel, including plenty of spoilers. We get into the differences between contemporary and historical romance writing and we gush about the skills and talents of one Ms. Beverly Jenkins. Be sure to listen to the the end of today's episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in the show Notes. And if you like this podcast and want a little more bookish content, well, guess what babe, you're in luck. You can subscribe to my newsletter unstacked on Substack for a bunch of my hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture news. And you can join the Snacks Pack on Patreon for some fun community conversations, our virtual book club, our active Discord community, and a lot more. Plus, your support on either or both platforms makes it possible for me to bring the Stacks to you free every single week. So to join, go to patreon.com the stacks and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com All right, now it is time for my spoiler filled conversation with jasmine guillory about Ms. Beverly Jenkins Indigo. All right everybody, we did a romance this month. I am so excited to talk about it. It is book club day. I am joined again by the wonderful Jasmine Guillory. Jasmine, welcome back to the stacks.
- [03:13]
B
Thank you so much. I'm very excited to talk about this
- [03:16]
A
book before we dive into Indigo. Since we last recorded you had an announcement. So can we just quickly, can you just quickly tell the people what was announced and when they can expect to get their grubby little paws on it?
- [03:30]
B
Yes. I announced my next book. It is my young adult debut. It comes out October 6th and it's called It's Only Dancing. It's a little updated black take on dirty dancing with a black former ballerina who gets drawn back into dancing via the hip hop dance instructor at her the family camp that her parents drag her to in the summer. And then there's some, there's some, there's lots of dancing, there's some romance, there's some activity, there's some political activity. It's all very fun. So can't wait for people to get to read it.
- [04:11]
A
Today we are reading Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. Well, we've read it, we're talking about it. It is a romance novel. There is a mystery in was written in 1996. It is a story of Hester Wyatt who is a conductor on the underground railroad in Michigan, Whitaker, Michigan. And she the the book starts she has been tasked with caring for the black Daniel who is a well known slave freer black guy who's bringing the slaves north on the underground railroad. He is stabbed by who? We don't know why. We also don't know they romance. That's the premise and we always start here broadly sort of. What, what were your thoughts overall about the book? Super high level.
- [05:03]
B
So it was crazy because I suggested this book and I because I everybody had told me that like this is Beverly Chickens masterpiece. You have to read it if you like her other books. But I did not know much about it going in at all. Like I didn't even really know the premise because I, I just sort of knew it was her masterpiece. So I just didn't pay attention and was like diving right in.
- [05:26]
A
Yeah.
- [05:27]
B
And then as I was reading it I was like I did not realize how topical this book would feel right now. Right. Like because the whole thing I mean, because there's a whole big plot about, like, the slave catchers coming from the north to, like, kidnap people and take them away. And I was like, wow, like, we're
- [05:46]
A
doing that right now.
- [05:48]
B
Yeah, right now. Right this minute.
- [05:50]
A
Yeah.
- [05:51]
B
In America. So that felt wild. And also, you know, there was a lot in. Because. Because he is very light skinned and is from, like, a rich family and she is very dark skinned. And. And there was a, you know, a lot of discussion about that and about, like, class in black America at that time. Right. Which is something that, like, I don't really deal with today. But, like, my family certainly.
- [06:19]
A
Sure.
- [06:20]
B
You know, my. My great grandparents left Louisiana and came to California partially because my great grandmother was very, very light skinned and my great grandfather was very, very dark skinned. And, like, they couldn't go to the same places together. And so they came to Oakland. And so I was like reading this and was like, oh, wow, okay. There's a lot more topical stuff in here than I really anticipated. So that. That was a fascinating read.
- [06:48]
A
Okay, so here are my high level thoughts. I. I loved the book. I love that. I realized in reading it that my problem with romance might be the contemporary romance, because I feel like there is an expectation with contemporary romance that it feels like real life. That if it feels corny at all, I'm like, nobody talks like that. Like, ew.
- [07:16]
B
But with this, you're like, whatever, it doesn't matter.
- [07:20]
A
It's melodrama. It's. It's Bridgerton. I love Bridgerton. Not the books. I've never read the books. But I love the show because I'm just like, you know, he's so incorrigible. Every time Hester would say that, I was like, isn't he so incorrigible? Like, I was so into it. She's lifting up her petticoats like she's rubbing the silk. He's like, you know, all these nicknames, mon petit. Like, this whole thing. I was like, this is so corny. But, like, I. I'm here for it in this time period. And I think that maybe my reading of contemporary Roman man, it's too close to home. I'm like, I've been on a date before. Like, ew, boys like that.
- [08:01]
B
Yeah, those are gross.
- [08:02]
A
This is stupid. But I'm like, oh, Galen, okay, yes, send me an orange. And also, I think just the stakes feel higher. Being a virgin, apparently, very important. Innocence, extremely important. Cannot relate. Don't know what an innocent is. But, like, for me, it really worked and things That I didn't like. I was like, it's fine. It doesn't matter. In a way that. Not just with romance, but in a way that. With a lot of, like, contemporary fiction, if something little annoys me, I cannot let it go.
- [08:36]
B
So I like, and I will say I have very different standards, I think, for men in historical romances than I do for men in contemporary romances. Like, men in contemporary romances, they cross a line. I'm like, no, yeah, cancel him.
- [08:53]
A
He's done. This book is horrible.
- [08:55]
B
But for this one, like, like, you know, look, I. Consent is real big for me.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah.
- [09:01]
B
I didn't love that he kind of forced her into marrying him.
- [09:05]
A
Yeah.
- [09:05]
B
But I was also, like, she wanted it, you know, like, because. Because there are certain things that do make more sense at a different time period in a different. Or at least I feel like they do.
- [09:21]
A
Yeah, I definitely want to spend a lot of time on consent because I think there's some, like, very interesting mixed messaging in this book about consent. And also, I was thinking a lot about, like, what were the standards at the time? What were the standards in Romance in 1996 when this book was written? And then what do we think now, 30 years later? Right. Like, because there's these sort of three dueling, true, tripling, competing ideas. I do want to say, as much as I love this book, I have 750, like, little tiny nits to pick with it. But I still loved it. Like, I just. I had a great time. It did exactly what I wanted it to do for me. So I was like, this is great. I'm having a great time here. But then there were like. There's so many notes that I took that was just like, foster, why are you a. Like, why are you the worst? Okay, but I want to ask you this. What was your relationship to Beverly Jenkins books before you said you'd read some. Had you read the historical ones? Had you read the contemporary ones?
- [10:24]
B
So I've only read her historical romances. I've never read any of her contemporaries. My favorites are. She has a series set in California, like, during the gold rush in, like, near Sacramento or something, which. Which I really loved because they felt very timely, you know, and, like, perfect for. But yeah, so those are the. Those are her books that most of
- [10:48]
A
her books that I read. And as a person, as a black woman who writes romance, is she, like, she must be sort of important because she's sort of a standard, like a.
- [10:58]
B
At the top peak of the mountain of the genre, I would say you Know, like, I went to the Black Romance Book Festival last June in Atlanta. It was the first one. And, like, you know, there were a lot of readers there fangirling over authors. All of the authors there were fangirling over Beverly Dickens.
- [11:17]
A
Do you feel like she. Like, her work has directly influenced you? Are there things that you can point to that you do that you feel like are in conversation with her work?
- [11:25]
B
I just sort of feel like none of us would be able to do this if it wasn't for her. So I'm not, because. Because I haven't read any of her contemporaries. I'm just not sure with what of my work is, like, actively in conversation with her. But I do sort of feel like she. She and like, some of her contemporaries really, like, paved a path for a lot of other black women to follow.
- [11:51]
A
Okay. This makes so much sense. So today, I think how we should do this is sort of go through the book in sort of plot, chronological order, and then talk about some of the things that come up in the different sections. Because usually I kind of talk around themes, but there is so much plot in this book. It is 400 pages almost. And I did not know that I would be able to make it through. Like, I was like, that's a lot of pages for this. But the book starts with these letters from what we talked about, which also,
- [12:23]
B
I think, by the way, for 400 pages for a romance is not that rare. Now, I think then it was much more rare, okay. Because I was sort of like, 400. And then I was like, wait a minute. In that, like, published in. Before 2000, like, that was rare for a romance to be that long.
- [12:40]
A
It felt. It felt. It felt big to me. Okay, so the book starts with these letters from a man to his sister Catherine, which is like, I have fallen in love. I've sold myself into slavery to be with this woman. We're having a baby. And then immediately the next letter is like, so we had a baby, and my current master died. So now I have a new master, and he sold my wife and my child down the river. And I'm dying. I'll be dead by the time you get this. And we did cut the finger. The tip of the finger off my kids so that we know who she is. And her name's Hester. Love you, sister. It was a good.
- [13:26]
B
It was a good bye.
- [13:28]
A
Yeah.
- [13:28]
B
Yeah.
- [13:28]
A
That's all you need to know. Yeah. We open the actual book with Hester. She's running her stop on the underground railroad. An injured man is brought in we find out that he is the black Daniel, which, to me, it's like. Like, come on. It's camp.
- [13:44]
B
It's camp.
- [13:44]
A
I don't. Okay, let me ask you this. Do you know, like, in the 1990s, were romance novels, like, campy, or am I just projecting this on. Is this supposed to be in earnest?
- [13:56]
B
I feel like, probably in earnest, yeah.
- [13:58]
A
Because I was really like, this is camp.
- [14:00]
B
But some of it. Some of it in earnest, but also some of it is, like, that is what was expected for romance.
- [14:06]
A
Yeah, it's just, like, heightened.
- [14:08]
B
Heightened. Everybody's heightened.
- [14:09]
A
The name the black Daniel, it's not like the black Peter is not doing it for me, you know, like, there's
- [14:16]
B
something like the black David. Not the same.
- [14:19]
A
Yeah. There's something about Daniel. I was just like, yeah. Also the black. Anything is, like. It just feels so, like, coded. So, like I said, he ends up at the plate at her place. She's nursing him to health. They do not. She does not like him. He is surly. He's entitled. He's hot, we think.
- [14:41]
B
But he doesn't do what she says.
- [14:43]
A
He doesn't listen.
- [14:43]
B
We're not sure if he's hot because he's all battered and he's battered.
- [14:47]
A
But, like, we think he has a nice body. And, like, there's a few moments where she's like. I can kind of see it. And B is also B, who is her aunt's friend, who also is, like, part of the underground community.
- [14:59]
B
Medical person. Yes.
- [15:00]
A
She's the nurse. She comes in to, like, sew him up. And she's sort of just like an elder that she loves and be sort of like, he might be hot, you know, like, horny older lady. Like, I'm kind of into it. And anyways, so when he kind of comes to, they start talking, and he's like, listen, there's a snake in the Whitaker garden. And. And she's like, I don't like you. I don't know. You're talking about. You're coming into my town. You're saying that there are people who are selling people out in this town. We're not into it. And he's like, you don't have to believe me, Little Miss Thing. I like, honestly, I'm the black Daniel. Like, who the fudge are you? But, like, I. There's a snake. Like, I heard it. There's a snake. Like, we'll figure it out. I don't care. Like, you're not safe. Whatever. They start flirting. There's, you know, he's trying to flirt with her. She's not into it, but she's into it.
- [15:51]
B
Yeah.
- [15:51]
A
And then, you know, she's a little, like, horrified. She's a little horrified.
- [15:58]
B
Like, I am a woman of this parish. Why would you talk to me like that?
- [16:02]
A
Right. And also, like, I'm doing you a service. Like, I am here caring for you. I don't know you. I don't really like you. Like, you're sort of being rude to me. And he sort of knows he's being rude. He thinks it's funny. He thinks it's cute. What he does do is he notices her hands. Her hands are indigo colored, dark purple. And because. And this is something that I want to talk about, which is the history that's in this book. Her hands are purple because if you were enslaved on an indigo plantation, the way that you had to sort of like, harvest the indigo meant that you had to touch the plant. It is blue, purple. It's like, what colors? Jeans. And so your hands are stained. And so people who are enslaved on indigo plantations were marked by these purple hands for the rest of their lives. There's nothing you could do about it. So he instantly notices her hands and he's like, she was enslaved. And this is where we get the title because he pretty quickly turns it into his pet name for her. He calls her Indigo, which I thought was very cute.
- [17:05]
B
Yes.
- [17:06]
A
I was very into it.
- [17:07]
B
Well, and especially, like, I think this is. This is one thing that I. The romance does very well. It takes something that she's mildly ashamed of.
- [17:16]
A
Yes.
- [17:17]
B
And he turns it into, like, kind
- [17:19]
A
of a love word for her. Yes. And I feel like this. The things that she is ashamed of is a huge recurring theme throughout this book. And what you're telling me is that's common in romance, like the shame element.
- [17:35]
B
Yeah. Well, not quite. Exactly the same element, but like turning around something that you don't like about yourself.
- [17:42]
A
I see.
- [17:42]
B
And that being something that he sees
- [17:46]
A
as beautiful, like your thing and that he validates this thing that you feel. Okay, got it.
- [17:51]
B
Yes.
- [17:52]
A
Romance. The thing about me is I love a rom com, like movie. Like, I love a romance movie. I think it's just with the books, I need it to be a little more cringy, you know, like, it's like almost too normal. I need, like, more embarrassment. Okay. So he calls her this nickname. I'm kind of gonna jump ahead because they kiss, which is what I want to get to. He discovers that she has been, like, feeding him all of her food. She has no Money. And he's like, don't ever go without because of me or anyone else. And she's like, well, you need your strength. And he's like, don't do it because he's kind of pushy.
- [18:33]
B
Yeah, he's very pushy.
- [18:34]
A
And then they kiss on page 100. And this is how it's described because this is the first thing I want to talk about, which is Beverly Jenkins euphemistic language. His mouth brushed her lips and he gathered her in closer. She came willingly, rising up on her bare toes to meet his lips. Galen groaned as her arms encircled him. Her luscious mouth was as perfect as he dreamed and had not been his intent to kiss her this way. Not this deeply, not this slowly, not this intensely. But he could no more stop himself now than he could halt the pounding in his blood. So this is their first kiss. She starts to feel a lot of things. I want to talk about romance writing because I do feel like this is something that has maybe changed a lot.
- [19:19]
B
Yeah.
- [19:20]
A
How we talk about having sexual relations with one another.
- [19:25]
B
Yes. I think that like, I mean, I think contemporary romance very much so. Historical romance there because partly, maybe because the audience for historical romance is maybe a little different and so maybe progresses slower. But I still think the language is definitely much less euphemistic now in. In kind of all of romance than it used to be.
- [19:53]
A
Because like, I don't think we get. We don't get a penis or a vagina. We get his manhood. We get her pleasure, her cove.
- [20:02]
B
Late in the book, and I was surprised about this. She used the word orgasm.
- [20:07]
A
Oh yes.
- [20:07]
B
Which is, I think the only time it was mentioned. And there were a lot of.
- [20:11]
A
There were a lot of orgasms. There were. There were pre sex orgasms. Galen is a good lover. I feel like he is sort of this, like. I mean, I know that in romance many of the men are sort of a fantasy, but like he appears to be the sort of dream man that is both very pushy. Yeah. Very rich.
- [20:33]
B
Very rich.
- [20:33]
A
And also like a very invested pleasure lover.
- [20:39]
B
Yes.
- [20:40]
A
And so I feel like that's partly why you're like, it's okay that you're like non consensually doing so many things because it's like you really have her best interest in mind. She's orgasm 94 times.
- [20:52]
B
And she told. I mean this is jumping a little bit. She told. She kept telling him not to stop sending me gi. You know, stop sending me gifts. And he's like, whatever you say. And then he would Just keep doing it. But there were things like oranges.
- [21:07]
A
And then he's like, do you want me to stop setting the oranges? And she's like, I mean, you can keep selling the oranges. Like, that's fine. Which I get. Honestly, I prefer a gift that I can eat to, like, most other gifts. I'm like, you don't know my taste in nightgowns, babe. Like, just send. Send the fruit. Okay. Send the chocolate. So they have this romantic encounter, and then it is this exact night that Galen is taken away in the night by his friend Raymond and his man. No, his man doesn't come. It's Raymond and his. Raymond's brothers.
- [21:37]
B
Yeah.
- [21:38]
A
And he leaves. And it's. I. At this point, I'm sort of like, what? Where are we going here? Like, I'm like, we're 100 pages in. And I'm just like, it's done. Meanwhile. And I'm sort of, like, glazing over some of the other stuff because there's so much plot. Later, he leaves. And then Hester's in a tough place financially. It's been a cold winter. She's already sort of relied on the help of her neighbors. And she's like, I can't do it anymore. I. I own this house because her family. Her. Her dad's family had been free for a very long time. It is only her dad who is voluntarily sold himself into slavery for love. But his. The house, the Wyatt family house, has been in the family for a long time. They've got a lot of land. They've got some apples that are not well kept, but they've got them. And so she decides to sell some land. And the rich family in the town, they've sold this extra house they have because the daughter was supposed to get married and then, like, ran off or was sold off. And.
- [22:40]
B
Well, no, that comes up later, right? It says she runs off, but apparently, no, the dad sent her away because she. Because he doesn't want her to marry
- [22:50]
A
the guy, the person that she's in love with. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And so someone buys this house, which is the neighboring property. And that person who buys the house sends their man Renaud to Hester's house and is like, can we just buy, like, a few acres? And she's like, yeah, yeah, sure. How much? And he's like, like, I. I heard
- [23:11]
B
you were in the market.
- [23:11]
A
Yeah, I heard you wanted to sell some acres. And she's like, yeah, yeah, great. He's like, can I. Can we pay you this much? And Hester sees it, and she's like, oh, my God. It's, like, three times too much. You. You literally can't. Like, I won't let you. And Renaud's like, what? And she's like, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm just a good Christian woman. Like, I know. And he's like, okay, how about half? And she's like, it's still too much, but, like, okay, I could do good work with this. You know, I could. I could free the slaves with us. Like, it's fine. He leaves.
- [23:44]
B
He le. I can't remember. He leaves and, like, leaves her a note or something.
- [23:49]
A
Yes. He leaves.
- [23:50]
B
And that's how she discovers the. That the black Daniel was the one.
- [23:54]
A
He leaves. Oh. And the black Daniel's real name is Galen. Galeno. But he goes by Galen. That's the Anglicized version. It leaves a note that's like, hey, boo. So excited to be names. And she's like, ah, my heart. Ew.
- [24:11]
B
Also.
- [24:11]
A
Ew. Why is he doing this?
- [24:13]
B
Also, you shouldn't have given me all this money.
- [24:15]
A
Yes. Also given this money. And then that night, this is. This is one of the worst parts of the book for me. That night, he's just in her house. He just sneaks in through the underground railroad tunnel and just watching her sleep and leaves her like a blood red rose. And in that moment, I took a note in my notes and I said, this could also be a horror novel. Yeah.
- [24:38]
B
Yeah. Well, because. Also, because, you know, this was foreshadowed early in the book, right. Where he made her show him the secret places in the house. And he was like, show me the one into your bedroom. And she was like, why? And he was like, because I want to see it. And she did. And I was like, this get. I have read enough books to know he's gonna come in through her bag.
- [25:01]
A
That's right. And the other. The other sort of like Chekhov's gun in the book was the bathtub. It's like, oh, this beautiful black bathtub with, like, white etching. And it's inherited. It's exotic. And I was like, I know enough about foreshadow to know a bathtub in the first hundred pages is sex in the bathtub in the back hundred pages. Okay. Said, sign me up. Boil that water. So he creeps into her house. Very creepy. Then, like, the next day, guess who always. I forgot to say this. This is so important to the story. Hester is talking to Galen. They're, like, getting to know each other when he's, you know, in her house. And he's like, so, like, what's the deal? And she's like, oh, you know, I'm, like, engaged to be wed. And he's like, oh. And so in my mind, as a person who doesn't read romance, but I do know some of the things that romance people don't like. And cheater is a big cheater. And so I took a note and I said, how's this going to work? I'll tell you how it works out. First she says, this is a. This is just a marriage of companionship. We don't love each other. Our minds just get along well, whatever. And so I said, okay, maybe this is going to be it. But then Ms. Bev was like, don't worry. I don't want you to have any feelings about Foster, okay? I live for Foster. He's my favorite loser ever. She gets a note that's like, foster's gonna be in town. He's back from studying at Oxford. So she's like, I gotta pick him up from the depot because that's my boo. Even though I, you know, we're just friends, but we're gonna get married. She shows up.
- [26:41]
B
She has this terrible ride.
- [26:42]
A
Oh, yes, they have a. She has a terrible mule. It's a terrible ride, Muddy.
- [26:47]
B
But she's doing it because this is Foster. She has to do it. She has to go pick him up.
- [26:51]
A
Foster's her boo, unfortunately. But guess what, everybody who hasn't read the book, Foster has taken a bride on the boat. Okay? Yeah.
- [27:01]
B
Turns up married, turns up to greet his fiance and says, here's my wife.
- [27:08]
A
I've been struck by love. She's pure sunshine. I'm like, ew. Also, just like, honestly, bro, you don't have to gas up the new girl, you know?
- [27:20]
B
No.
- [27:20]
A
Like, you already married her. You don't have to be like, oh, she's so great. I love her so much.
- [27:24]
B
Like, okay, I want you to be best friends. Yeah.
- [27:26]
A
I want you. Like. It's like, Foster, just drop the news and go, honestly, get one of your friends to pick you up. Like, so disrespectful. And then he's like, did you just come to say hi, or did you want to give us a ride home? And she's like, I guess I'll give you a ride home. And then the mule is fed up with Foster and won't move, so they're stuck. It's. It's. It's Hester, it's Foster, and then it's Janine. I think that's her name, right? Janine.
- [27:50]
B
Janine. I think so, yeah.
- [27:51]
A
Spelled in a way that was confusing to me, but yes, Janine. And they're stuck. And Foster's like, I saw a house back a little bit. I'm gonna go check in. Well, if you are listening to this podcast, you know whose house that is, you know who's coming, you know who rescues them, you know who comes. He's hot, he's rich. He loves to go down on women. It's Galen. Here he is. He's got a big horse, he's got a big carriage, and he's got a big heart, among other things. And he picks them up and he small talks with them. And one of my favorite scenes in the whole book is Galen and Foster talking about race. Like, gay. Like them, like, sort of like having like, a little big dick competition. And it's just so. It's so funny. It's so cringe, and I love it. And so. So basically we've solved the problem of her having been betrothed pretty quickly and, like, pretty effectively because Foster, we find out, is an asshole. He keeps saying mean things about Hester. Like, he's like, hester's no beauty to
- [28:59]
B
her face, that she's not beautiful.
- [29:01]
A
I think. Here's the line. He says, women. This is. This is a little bit after he says, women can be quite remarkable, can't they? Take Hester, for example. She's no beauty, but her mind is first rate. And then Janine says, what about me, Fosty? And then he says, you, my darling, are as beautiful as Sheba. This is in front of Hester also,
- [29:25]
B
the way Janine, who we will talk about much later, calls him Fosty.
- [29:30]
A
Fosty. It's so good. Oh, it's such. It's so funny. And Janine is just like. She's dumb as rocks. That's how she's presented to us. Very beautiful. Has a large bosom. That's sort of what we know about her from Jump. And they've met on this thing, and she's sort of just like. Like a pretty girl. And they're so in love, and she's so in love with him, and he's so in love with her. And that's it. And everyone gets it and feels bad for Hester because her, like, nerdy sort of boyfriend has found, like, a hot babe, essentially.
- [30:00]
B
Yeah, right.
- [30:01]
A
She's sort of the dumb blonde archetype, though she's not blonde, to my understanding. Yes. Then we kind of jump forward A little bit. She goes. She. Foster wants to build a school. So Hester is like, he's still my friend. And more importantly, this is good for the community.
- [30:19]
B
The school is good for the.
- [30:20]
A
Yeah. And I know that Galen is sort of intimate. We've, like, made out a few times. He's put his hand up my skirt a little bit, and I liked it. And he said, he has a lot of money, he's rich, and he's, you know, he's sort of teasing this idea that he might, you know, be the benefactor. So she's like, I'm gonna go, sort of see what can happen. She goes, and she meets John Brown. And John Brown is important to the story because I have not told you all Hester's backstory, which is that she was, as we said, enslaved. And she. The way that she is freed is that a speculator who is a person who basically would travel from plantation to plantation looking for people to buy, to sell to other. Like, it would be like, oh, I've. I need a girl with small hands who can work my loom. And I'd be like, oh, this guy's selling his girl with small hands. Let me kind of be the middleman. So a speculator comes. Obviously, he looks at her, he sees her. He, like, checks out her hands. He checks her out. She ends up getting sold. She's devastated. She has to leave her only friend. She has no mother, she has no father. She's got this one friend and her friend's mom. Very sad, very tragic. Turns out that this speculator, John Brown, was actually part of the Underground Railroad and had been employed by Catherine and had been searching for Hester for years and was able to find her because of the finger. Piece of the finger that's cut off. So it's sort of. He is really the hero. But the way that this scene is written, I was, like, a little bit like. Even though I knew she got out, I was like, what's happening? Yeah. It is this night that she does receive her first orgasm when she goes to visit, which is described as. Suddenly, Hester's body soared to crescendo and her world exploded. She became a shooting star streaking across the night sky. The intensity of the feeling flung her into realms never before known. And she clutched at his arm as she rode the buffeting wave. Iconic. I love it.
- [32:21]
B
It's perfect.
- [32:21]
A
It's perfect. I mean, here's the thing. This quality of the writing in this book is exceptional.
- [32:29]
B
Yeah.
- [32:30]
A
Like, the tone, the. Like, it's pitch perfect. All the Way through. Even the things that, like, I don't love are exactly correct. Like, the book is like a well written document.
- [32:44]
B
Yeah. And like I. The voices of each character, you know, because it. The point of view flips back and forth between them and it. It's done so well. And that's actually one thing that I wanted to talk about is the way that the point of view flips back and forth is also different from how it would be done now.
- [33:04]
A
Okay, that's what I thought. Because now in romance, it's like, she gets a chapter, he gets a chapter. Or like she gets a section, he gets a section. But this would be like, we're with her. We're with her. With. With her. And it's all third person. But it's like super duper close third person. So it's like you feel like she's talking about being shot into space. And then it's like. And Galen could feel. And it's like, oh, wait, now I'm with Galen.
- [33:25]
B
Yeah.
- [33:26]
A
And just for like a paragraph or
- [33:28]
B
two at least, like a section break or something. But it also flips back and forth, like quite a bit each chapter. I feel like.
- [33:35]
A
Yeah.
- [33:36]
B
Which I like, I enjoyed and I think it's perfect for this book. But it is like, it is very different, you know, 30 years later, I guess, in romance. And.
- [33:45]
A
And how, like, as you're reading it as like a person who does this craft for your work, obviously it's different than how I'm reading it, but what are you noticing? Like, what is effective or not effective? How do you about it in relationship to, like, what you see now?
- [34:00]
B
Well, it's so interesting because one of the things, like, people talk about a lot in like, sort of craft, especially if you're doing, you know, more than one point of view, is like, no head hopping.
- [34:12]
A
Right.
- [34:12]
B
Which, like, head hopping is like moving back and forth between people's heads kind of without section breaks or without like, you know, making it seem. But like, she does this and it works great constantly, you know, like, there's a whole lot of head hopping in this book and it's great. Maybe in the first chapter or two I was a little confused because it did move between without any. Like. But then you get used to it and then there. There was no confusion, you know, like, it's very easy to tell when you've switched into someone else, you know.
- [34:45]
A
Yeah. And I sort of. What I sort of liked about it is that I felt it sort of signified like a mutual enjoyment or like a mutual understanding. In a way. Even when they didn't agree necessarily, but it was like, oh, they're sort of on the same page. Like, and I think sometimes, because some of the stuff that Galen does is a little bit, like, pushy.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah.
- [35:06]
A
Have being able to go from, like, him being like, I'm doing this because whatever. And being able to immediately know how she feels about it.
- [35:13]
B
Yeah.
- [35:13]
A
Sort of felt like a safety for the reader to be like, okay, he's not that bad. She's into it. Like, she's giving the signs.
- [35:21]
B
Yes.
- [35:21]
A
You know, when I was a freshman in college, they did a song that was like, no, doesn't always mean no, but it always means stop. And I think about that a lot in romance novels.
- [35:29]
B
Yes, totally. And, like, in, like, even in the. In the horror movie scene, right. Where he's, like, standing by her bed watching her and leaves her the rose. And then, like, very quickly, she wakes up in the morning and is like, he was here and is happy about it, you know, and so that, like, that does make those moments a lot better.
- [35:48]
A
And when you're writing romance and, you know, you have to do something that's, like, sort of unlikable. Are you super conscious of, like, how am I gonna make this work so that I don't this up for the reader?
- [35:59]
B
Absolutely. And I really pay attention to whose head I'm in, because most of. Not all, but most of my books are dual point of view. If there's a scene where, like, he's pushing her up against the wall. Right. I want to be in her head so that we know she likes that and that she is encouraging that. Things like that to, like, make it clear that there is consent or who's. You know, how someone else's feelings are about these things. Like, that's something that I think about a lot.
- [36:29]
A
You know what? Let's take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. When I started the stacks, I quickly learned there was a lot more to having my own business than just the fun stuff, like reading books. There were scripts that had to be written, episodes that had to be scheduled, logos that had to be created, and marketing that I apparently had to manage. The list was endless. It felt like I was spending a lot more time sorting through the logistics than I was reading books. When you're starting your own business, it helps to have a tool that can simplify everything so you can focus on what matters most. That's why I want to introduce you to Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business feel seamless. With hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity, AI tools to help you write, copy and enhance images, and built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social media campaigns and reach even more customers. The best part? 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Over on Patreon and Substack Pack Our Stacks Patreon community, also known as the Stacks Pack, is where you can go for book club meetups, a private, very active discord, and a year long mega reading challenge to help you achieve all your reading goals. Plus you also get that monthly bonus episode. Now over on the Sub stack, you can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked where I keep the book conversations going. I also give you a healthy dose of sports and pop culture. Definitely some hot takes happening over there. And again, that bonus episode. If you don't have a few dollars to spare, don't worry, there are free options on the Substack and the Patreon to get you a little extra Stacks magic. Making this podcast is a total team effort and by supporting my Patreon and my Substack, you allow me to support my amazing team that makes the show possible every single week. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers and support this indie podcast, come hang out with me on Patreon Substack or both. I would love to have you. And since we're talking about love, you can gift subscriptions to the Patreon and the Substack for that special reader in your life. For the Stacks pack, head to patreon.com the stacks and for the newsletter head to Tracy thomas.substack.com and also there are links to both in the show Notes. Okay, see you in the stacks. February doesn't have to be all about romance. It's also the perfect time to show yourself some extra love. For me, that means indulging in life's little comforts like getting a good night's sleep and of course making time to slow down and curl up with a good book. I am in a season of my life where I am looking for peak relaxation and if there's one brand I'm turning to to make these moments at home feel ten times more luxurious. It's Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth is all about elevating the everyday with high quality pajamas, blankets and bedding that take self care to the next level. Can we just talk for a moment about their bamboo pajama set? I used to be a sweatpants person, but in 2026 I'm trying really hard to be a person who dresses for sleep. And their jammies are silky soft. So lightweight. They keep me cool all night long, but they're not so thin that I feel cold when I'm wearing them in the morning. Cozy Earth's products are not only insanely comfortable, but they're also risk free. They offer a 100 night sleep trial that gives you 100 nights to try their bedding before deciding to keep it or return it or exchange it. Plus they offer a 10 year warranty. Give yourself or someone special some extra love. This month with Cozy Earth you can use my code the Stacks for up to 20 off. And if you get a post purchase survey, please be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Indulge in life's little comforts with products that make even the simplest moments at home feel like luxury. All right, we are back. So here's what happens. I've left out a character, a main character in this book who's really going to sort of step into the story. But first Galen gotta spend money. He's got another party to throw. He because he is using every opportunity he can to be close to Hester because Hester is not showing that she's that interested. I mean like we know she's into it because she's going over there at 10pm like she's she's into it. He's sending gifts, she's wearing the gifts. But he throws a party in honor of Foster and Janine, which I also think is very funny because he's very much trolling her with them. Yes. She's like oh you and you and Fasty didn't or he doesn't call him. Fosse goes on like Frederick, you and Frederick didn't cuddle. Here, come lay your head on my Large chest. I'm like, okay, don't mind if I do, Galen. And then we sort of.
- [42:18]
B
Well. And also. And also he wants to find out who the traitor is.
- [42:23]
A
Yes.
- [42:24]
B
And so he's party having this party partly so he can meet everyone and like, like, really try to figure out who it is. That's, like, selling people literally down the river.
- [42:35]
A
Exactly. And so after the party, she leaves. He's like, I'm gonna come see you tonight. She's like, don't do it. And he's like, I can't promise. So obviously he's coming. He shows up at her house. She's tried on one of the silky negligees he's gifted her. And he's like, but first we need to go over the list of everyone who was at the party. So they go over the list. Nothing. So sexy time. Now, this is. This thing that I've left out. There is a slave catcher in town. He's got a perfect villain name. His name is Ezra Shue. The names in this book are. Every single one is perfect.
- [43:13]
B
Perfect.
- [43:14]
A
Ezra Shoe. It's genius. He has captured Fanny and James Blackburn. They are Hester's neighbors. They're sort of just like. Like, they're no big deal in the town. They're not, like, causing a ruckus. They're just, you know, regular people. They're just regular people who happen to escape the cruelties of chattel slavery. And so Hester and the ladies of the. Of the Underground Railroad community, they work up a plan. They work up a scheme. Hester and her switch outfits and hairstyles, and Hester stays in the jail where she's being kept and Fanny is escaped. They also, the men work up a scheme to escape James, which we don't really hear about because there's nothing to do with us. There's no sex there. Like, we don't know. We don't care. Nobody's having sex there, and it works out. But the kind sheriff. There's a very kind sheriff in the town. Sheriff Lawson. He's like, listen, Hester, I liked your aunt. I like you. You gotta stay in jail overnight. Like, I'm so sorry, boo, but, like, you guys can't just be breaking people out of jail while she have to
- [44:20]
B
pay me your bonds.
- [44:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. You gotta follow the rules exactly. And she's like, I get it. I'm gonna, like, sell everything I've ever owned to do that. And he's like, okay. She's like, it'll be ready in the morning. And then he's like, by the way, I promised my wife I would go to see, like the city's performance of Our Town or whatever. And she's like, it's fine. Just like, lock me in because I don't want anything bad to happen. And he's like, by the way, take this pistol. And she's like, okay, sure. And then surprise, who shows up? Ezra Shu and his band of assholes.
- [44:49]
B
And.
- [44:49]
A
And they're like, we're gonna rape you. And she's like, I'll shoot you. And they're like, no, you won't. So she shoots, like, next to him. And because of the gunshots, Foster and Galen and everybody comes and they're like, what's wrong? And then the sheriff comes and he. And Galen's like, you want $75? Like, here's $1 million in gold. Please, please release the lady.
- [45:10]
B
Just throwing gold on the floor.
- [45:11]
A
He's literally has a package of gold. He's like, here you go, here's gold. It is. This is a big moment because Galen has now again shown up and sort of forced himself into the conversation. Which is, which is, you know, very par for the course. But we love it because we don't want to. We don't want to be in jail.
- [45:29]
B
No, he's able to be. Got her out of jail.
- [45:31]
A
Exactly. We continue forward. Galen admits that he is in love,
- [45:35]
B
but I appreciate that. She had the gun. She's shooting the gun before. Yes, Galen came.
- [45:41]
A
Yes, she, our Hester, while she is an innocent, she is no damsel in distress.
- [45:46]
B
No, she's a fighter.
- [45:48]
A
She's a tough lady. She's. She's hard. She's no stranger to hard work. Right. Like, she's taking everything, but she'll use them for a slave catcher any day. Yeah. Okay, so Galen. Galen admits that he's in love with hester on page 228 in my copy. And he's like, I love you. And she's like, it doesn't matter. We could never be together because I'm formerly enslaved and you appear to be extremely wealthy and light skinned. And he's like, do you think I care?
- [46:20]
B
By the way, I have to note, she called him the color of butter, which delights me. And there were. We talked in the last podcast about Kin by Terry Jones. And one of the things that I loved in that book was that she also called a character the color of butter. And I just like, love that description so much. Like, for a light skinned black person. Like the color of butter. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:46]
A
And I love the Like, I mean, we'll get to this a little bit later. But I do love the sort of super detailed, nuanced discussions, like intra community in this book. Because a lot of the things that this book is doing. Someone in the Sax pack referred to it as Adult American Girl Doll, where it's like, yeah, you get a story, but you also get a lot of history. And I feel like a lot of what Beverly Jenkins is doing is teaching, like, about, like, the fugitive Slave Laws and all these things.
- [47:14]
B
You know, there's a lot that I know about, like, slavery in America. I did not know the indigo stuff at all.
- [47:19]
A
Oh, I only knew that because Imani Perry, Black and Blues, because indigo is a big part of that.
- [47:26]
B
But like, that, like, there's all sorts of little fascinating things like that.
- [47:30]
A
And I felt like. Like, so what I appreciated about is, like, I appreciate the teaching and the history, but what I liked about sort of the intra community stuff was that it also felt very much for black readers and not about teaching. Like, it was like little things like the color of butter or like the kind of conversations, like, there's a moment later that we'll talk about with B where she says something and I was like, that's right. Like, of course you would do that. It's not super attractive to do that. But like. Like, of course. And so I really appreciate that because I think while she's clearly doing teaching for people who don't know, she's also reserved pieces of this book for black people to be like, this is our story. And this isn't actually for white audiences or uneducated audiences. Next thing we know, Janine, our little cutie patootie with the big tits. And he's very shy, so shy, but not so shy not to be found having sex with Lemon at the schoolhouse. In the schoolhouse, in the schoolhouse. And for those of you who don't know, because I didn't tell you, Lem is B, the town nurse lady. Her son who has recently appeared on the scene. He B. Had escaped when her kids were young. She was not able to bring her kids north. And Lem escaped himself and found his mother. So it's this reunite re reunification. And Lem is horny and so is Janine, and they're lovers and they're having sex. Ex in foster school at Fosse School. He just got the funds.
- [49:01]
B
He just got the funds.
- [49:03]
A
And Galen and Hester find them and,
- [49:06]
B
well, Hester is bringing over books she's bringing for the schoolhouse.
- [49:09]
A
We love books. My God, not in front of the books.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah.
- [49:13]
A
And immediately Janine is like, if you say a word, I will tell everyone that you guys are. And I said, they actually have not had sex yet. I've been waiting. They have not had sex yet, first of all. And second of all, I thought Hester and Galen played this totally wrong. They should have said, it's crazy that you think that I'm the benefactor of this school and I happen to have books. You might have. Think you saw something. But we barely. We just met on the road with you. It's insane that they don't go that way. They go, don't say anything. And she's like, I will if you say anything about me. I didn't like.
- [49:58]
B
And they're like, well, we won't say anything, but.
- [50:00]
A
We won't say anything. But then Galen's also like, but if you say something, I'll have you. I'll have you skinned and dried. And she's like, okay. Like, please do. After that, we do have sex. On page 253. We finally have sex. Here it is, ladies and gentlemen. You've been waiting. I certainly was waiting. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To ready her for his possession, Galen slid a finger into her virgin cove. Iconic. She tightened around him and he shuddered. His own pleasure was put off a moment so he could enjoy the sight of her. He eased his fingers out once more, touching, circling. Then, while she lay dazed, pulsing and keening softly, he eased his manhood into her damp heat. Hester stiffened. Oh, my God. I. I love it.
- [50:53]
B
I love it.
- [50:54]
A
She's different the next day. Here. Well, actually. Okay, go ahead.
- [51:01]
B
Something I cannot. Okay, so I don't remember if this happened right before the sex or right afterwards, but she. After seeing Janine and Lem having sex, because Hester's virgin eyes had never seen anything like this before. She goes to be. Who's like the midwife.
- [51:18]
A
No, no, no. Wait, wait. She actually goes to Galen and she says to him, is what. Is what Janine and Lem doing? Is that what our next step is?
- [51:29]
B
Yes.
- [51:29]
A
And he loved that she phrased it that way. And he's like, yes. And she's like, it looked painful. And he's like, only once I'm here to tell you it's actually not only once. It can happen later in life. And not that I would know because I'm also a virgin with kids. Jesus. Obviously.
- [51:50]
B
Yeah.
- [51:51]
A
But is this a trope? Like, innocent woman, virginal woman? Is this a trope that women are into that is common? Or is this, like, specifically more Historical trope.
- [52:03]
B
I feel like. Well, I feel like there are two historical tropes at work here. One is definitely the virgin woman, which I feel like is pretty accurate for some. Some historical, you know, but also like the rake. The. The. The virgin woman who, like, manages to get the rake to fall for her.
- [52:25]
A
Yeah.
- [52:25]
B
Is also a huge one. And so he's, you know, the. He's the one who like every woman falls in love with, but then he falls for her.
- [52:33]
A
Right?
- [52:34]
B
That is.
- [52:34]
A
That's really the trope.
- [52:36]
B
That's really the trope. One of the things I love that Hester about. Hester's, you know, as the. The virgin woman, but he's also not embarrassed.
- [52:45]
A
Yes. I was just gonna say her shame that we talked about earlier of being like all of these things and not knowing and whatever. And she keeps being like, is this like she says early when they first kiss, like their first sexual encounter? Proper women aren't supposed to like this or something. Right? And I thought it was really interesting that through the course of the book, she's eventually just like, this feels good.
- [53:06]
B
It's great.
- [53:07]
A
This is really good. And like, I don't know that it's proper or not, but, like, I'm here for it. And I feel like I really like that because I find the innocent trope pretty off putting. But I like that it's really more of like coming into your sexuality, which I do think is like a pretty cool, common trope. Right? Like, woman, unexperienced woman. Or like maybe a woman who's had a bad partner then finds a partner who really pleasures her and realizes. Exactly, exactly. So, like, I. I do really like that. Okay, so then we get Foster. He's like, hello, are there any in the house?
- [53:48]
B
Before that she goes to be.
- [53:54]
A
It's right after I have some questions. Sex.
- [53:58]
B
Can you explain these things?
- [54:00]
A
Right? Because Galen's like, there could be a baby in there. Which I was like, you manipulative piece of. And she's like, b, where do babies come from? And Bees, like, gives her all the answers and she says, like, she gave her all the answers. And some of them were a little graphic and Hester didn't like it. But that's the truth. So we get the sort of sex ed class very quick. And then we get, knock, knock, knock, knock, knock. Foster says, are there any in this house specifically named Hester, you slut. You slutty slut, slut. How dare you. And these are Hester's worst nightmares, right? That the town is talking about her. She Goes into town, the women are like, we heard you're gonna get married. Half people think she's just on the side. How people think that they're together. It's all. Nobody knows. It's. It's both. It's neither. Galen's like, you got to marry me now. And she's like, we can't get married. You don't marry people like me. And he's like, your family will.
- [54:57]
B
Yeah. Be unhappy.
- [54:59]
A
You'll be unhappy later. Society.
- [55:01]
B
And he's basically like, I don't fudgeing care.
- [55:03]
A
I don't care. And she's like, you're not gonna want this forever. But then he's like, will you be at church on Sunday? And she's like, hello, you know, I'll be at your. Like, my name's Hester. I'm gonna be at church on. And the preacher does a full fire and brimstone, like there's some whores in this house, like on repeat. And then Galen gets up and he's like, actually, cut it out. I love her. We want to get married. Recites lines from Song of Solomon we want to get married. I want to get married now. And this is, to me, the biggest sort of conundrum in the book.
- [55:44]
B
Yes.
- [55:45]
A
This is what I would call a non consensual wedding. Hester is like, I can't say no. I have to say yes. Because now everybody has said, we've had sex. Yeah.
- [55:56]
B
And like, man is up here quoting song.
- [55:58]
A
Yes. He's taught, like, he's talking about me. And so she says yes, but here's my thing. Earlier in the book, multiple times, Galen says, you'll always have a choice in this. You know, you can always say no, I only want to do things that you want to do. And then he sort of is like. Like right before the marriage, right before the like, horrible nightmare proposal, he says. Or like we get his point of view.
- [56:27]
B
Well, he. He had proposed to her a number of times before, and she had said no.
- [56:32]
A
She would.
- [56:33]
B
She's said no to. Or ignored.
- [56:35]
A
And so then we kind of get. This is from his sort of point of view. Non point of view. His vast wealth and influence would shield her from the consequences of gossip that would result from what he was about to do. He just hoped she would see the right in his actions and eventually forgive him someday. And I just feel like going into a marriage, like, sort of on that footing is like, maybe not ideal.
- [56:57]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:59]
A
I mean, do like. It's sticky.
- [57:02]
B
Yeah, it's sticky. That. That's the only real sticky part of the book for me, too.
- [57:06]
A
But it's like. But it's not a small part of the book. This is the marriage. Isn't this the thing? This is the happily ever after in a lot of ways, at least our first one.
- [57:20]
B
Yes. And she forgives him really fast.
- [57:24]
A
Yeah. Like we've mentioned, he's quite good in bed. We've. From what we can understand.
- [57:29]
B
Yes. Yes. I do wish she had had a lot more choice in the marriage.
- [57:35]
A
It just feels super unsexy.
- [57:37]
B
Seemed like she was wavering because.
- [57:41]
A
Yes.
- [57:41]
B
Because. Because. There was no. Because, like, for the whole time when he. He would say, I want to marry you, and she would say no, and she would say. He would say, it's stronger, and she would keep saying no. And like, her answers were like, she never really seemed like she was right.
- [57:57]
A
If she had said, I would love to marry you, but I can't. Yeah, but she says no. Yeah. No, no.
- [58:05]
B
And even when we're in her point of view in the church, she's not loving it.
- [58:11]
A
No, she's not. I can't say no now. Yeah, it's. It's troubling. And I think to her credit, Beverly Jenkins just sort of zooms right the through. She says, this is not great. Let's keep going. I think I can get you guys back. Like, that's sort of how I read it. She's like. Like, this is the only way I can get from here to there. And I'm gonna do it in about a page and a half. And we're gonna be done. We're gonna have orgasms very quickly after this. There's. Okay. So then after this, we sort of dive back into this mystery abduction situation, more or less. There's another family that is abducted by Shu. A bunch of the men kind of go to chase them down. It ends in the death of Branton Hubble, who was the sort of beloved of Catherine the aunt, but also, like, a leader in the community. And it's very sad. Then. Then we have And. And there's more that happens here, but that's what you need to know for now. Then we have Veda, who is Galen's grandmother. An evil woman.
- [59:17]
B
Evil woman.
- [59:18]
A
Everybody hates her.
- [59:19]
B
Yeah.
- [59:20]
A
The Maxi, the, like, head of household, the aunt, the cousins, the, like, girl, the ex girlfriend. Like, everybody hates her. She dies, and they have to go back. And basically this scene just provides us more of, like, this is the world from which he comes from. These people will hate Hester. He doesn't care. He loves Her. This solidifies that he is really bad
- [59:44]
B
about it and that he will do a very good job standing up for her.
- [59:48]
A
Yes, yes. That like he is 10 toes down for Hester. They come back home, her house has been ransacked, her papers are gone.
- [59:59]
B
Upset me so much.
- [60:00]
A
It was very upsetting. It was very upsetting. I mean. Okay. In romance normally, the wedding is sort of usually towards the end, right? Yeah. 120 pages after.
- [60:11]
B
That's what's very interesting. Like the structure of this book because. Well, because also the, you know, obviously very early on you knew that they were end game, but it feels like the, you know, off in the sort of like third act dark place.
- [60:27]
A
We don't have it.
- [60:28]
B
Well, we do. We do have.
- [60:30]
A
It's not a breakup. We have a dark place, but it's not between.
- [60:32]
B
It's not. It's in the book, but it's not their relationship.
- [60:36]
A
Yes.
- [60:36]
B
They don't. They don't have that in their relationship. I mean, they have some ups and downs, but they don't. You know, the thing in the book is not really into that. Right. Which I. Which I thought was just a really interesting structure of the book.
- [60:50]
A
Book. I think that's also why I like this book. Because I usually hate third act breakups because I'm usually just like. But I know you guys are gonna get back together. So, like, why am I reading this? I'm like, where does this end? Let's go back to the romance. But yeah, the darkness. It's almost like something that actually brings them closer.
- [61:04]
B
Yes.
- [61:05]
A
And we also get this moment, like, because he's on the underground railroad, she's on the railroad. And they're both sort of like, we're married, but we're not giving up this work. Yes. Like, we will continue this work. She's got people still showing up at her house even while she's not there. He's leaving to go like rescue babies and shit. And it's just like, we're a hot do gooder couple. Yes.
- [61:27]
B
Like, and I appreciated that. It was interesting because going back to when she was in the jail cell. Right. Foster comes in with Galen and other people and like, Foster spends a really long time lecturing her about how she could do this. But Galen doesn't really.
- [61:45]
A
Yeah. And he's mad at her for a different reason.
- [61:48]
B
Yeah.
- [61:48]
A
He's like, you put yourself in danger and that is harmful to me. A person who loves you.
- [61:53]
B
But I really appreciated how neither of them wanted the other one to pull back on their work, you know, as dangerous as it was, like, he goes off to rescue babies, and she's like, good luck with the baby. You know, like, that's.
- [62:07]
A
She's like, I'll miss you. But also, like, baby trumps yeah.
- [62:10]
B
Me and he. And like, Foster was all, you know, like, I can't believe you would do. And Galen isn't doing that. Like, he's like, yes, obviously you want to do this. I'm upset that you were putting yourself. But, you know. But this is. But like, you. This is why I fell in love with you more.
- [62:30]
A
Exactly. So then her house is ransacked, her papers are gone. The community comes to help her clean up and be our nurse, sort of aunt figure comes in and she's like, like, this is my fault. And Hester's like, it's nobody's fault. Like, it's Ezra shoes bad. And she's like, okay, but more specifically, this is. So it's my. Get your boyfriend or get your husband. Like, let's talk. She lays out, this is it. Did you see this coming at all?
- [62:56]
B
No, not at all. I was.
- [62:58]
A
This is brilliant. I always try to figure things out. I did not see it at all. I said, for sure it's not B. I thought it could have been Brant and Hubble, maybe. I thought.
- [63:08]
B
I thought it could have been Branson Hubble. And then I was like, oh, it's got to be foster.
- [63:11]
A
It's got to be Foster. It's got to be Foster. But I kept saying, oh, it can't be foster, because he was gone.
- [63:18]
B
He was gone when I started. Hester had told him things in letters
- [63:21]
A
because she didn't know. I didn't know, but it would be. It's B and her son B. Son Lem is working with Ezra Shu because they are half brothers. The master of the plantation on which be lived had a legitimate child who is the worst person in the world, Ezra Shu. And an illegitimate child with B, who is like the second worst person. So apparently it's transferred through the dad. She was helping Lem identify families, like, sort of giving them sacrificial families to capture because she had two other kids and she wanted to know their whereabouts. And he had told her that they were alive and that if she helped him, he would give more information. Turns out they were already fucking dead. So she knew the whole time, which he knew the whole time, and. And forced her or sort of used her to sell out her neighbors in the face of the kids. And this is the part that I was alluding to earlier, where she says, Raymond, who is Galen's friend, says you traded the freedom of your neighbors for information on your children. Raymond asked angrily. B's voice was cold. Yes. And until you have children of your own, do not be so quick to judge me. I may be a stupid old woman, but leaving my children behind choked my heart. Every day for 30 years, I needed to know what had happened to them. Lem told me they were alive, but wouldn't say where until I aided him. And I'm like, that's right. And I think a lot of people would be shocked to find out that, like, black people like Lem were working with slave traders, but also, you know, in this economy. Yeah. Like, there is. There's only so much. And, like, it was not. Looked like people weren't like, oh, yeah, this is a legitimate, like, line of work, but money's money. And when you live in a capitalistic society, like, people are gonna do that. And, like, you know, he got his comeuppance. They killed him and branded him with the words traitor and threw him in the river. But, like, he was. He's not a outlier in the sense that people weren't doing this.
- [65:38]
B
No. And, like, he. You know, he. He is not the one who says
- [65:41]
A
this later in the book.
- [65:42]
B
Someone else does. But, like, basically, what is. What is being black ever done for me? I don't care about this community. I want the money.
- [65:49]
A
Right. And, you know, and the person who says that, let's just go there now. So after this, a few Pages later, like, 2, Janine and Foster come to Hester, and they're like, oh, my God, Janine just saw Sheriff Lawson.
- [66:05]
B
Oh. Because I don't know if we said this. The Ezra Shoe, obviously, is the one who destroyed Hester's house.
- [66:12]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [66:13]
B
And left behind saying that he was coming back for her.
- [66:17]
A
He's coming back for. And he's headed out for her. Like, since the beginning, I sort of skipped over that because he wasn't that important in the beginning, but he's important now. Yes.
- [66:23]
B
Threatened her many times.
- [66:24]
A
Yes. Threatened her many times. And he's like, I'm gonna get you. And so Janine is like, they've got Galen. And. And. And at this point, it's like, nobody's to leave Hester alone. The guy who's watching her, one of Raymond's brother, immediately is like, I'll go back to the house.
- [66:42]
B
I'll go back to the house and get other people. No, you.
- [66:46]
A
And you stay here with these people.
- [66:48]
B
Your. Your whole job was, like, your only
- [66:50]
A
job you were just brought into this book because, like, Jeanette likes you and because we need you now to do a good job. Up. You failed. She gets in the care. Hester gets in the carriage with Janine and Fosty. Moments later, Janine pulls out a gun. She's like, drive south. And Foster's like, what? And we come to find out that Janine had been in England. She got left or whatever, and she needed to get.
- [67:25]
B
She was sleeping with before.
- [67:26]
A
Yeah, she was like a mistress. And she got screwed over. So on her way back on the boat, she was like, I needed to get back. I needed someone to pay for me. I had nothing. So I cozied up to you, and you could bring me to Michigan. And I had found out that my, like, Boo Lem was there. He just reunited with his mom. So they weren't just like random lovers. They were like, go the distance. What do you guys call it? Endgame. They were end game. Okay. They're both going to end up in the rivers where they're going to end up, but. But not so happily ever after for them. And she's like, ezra Shu's about to be here. He's gonna pay me all this money. I can go west, have a new life. You know, being black didn't ever do anything for me. I don't care. This was a curse. Like, all of you. Foster's like, wait, you were my perfect, beautiful wife.
- [68:16]
B
What do you mean? I fell in love with you.
- [68:18]
A
And he's like, rushes towards her and she shoots him. Yeah. And she's like, I could kill you in one second if you move towards me again. I, I, I will. And I was like, I've never liked Janine more than in this moment. I've got to be honest. I love an unlikable woman.
- [68:30]
B
Foster needed to get shot.
- [68:31]
A
Yeah.
- [68:32]
B
Thank you for it.
- [68:33]
A
Didn't matter who did it.
- [68:34]
B
Yeah.
- [68:35]
A
And then Galen comes, rescues damsel. You know, you guys know this part? And then they sell him into slavery, which I was sort of like, ezra, shoot. They sell Ezra Shoe in slavery. And I was sort of like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought we were very anti slavery.
- [68:51]
B
I thought we, I thought we hated
- [68:53]
A
slavery, though, like, as an institution. As an institution, like, couldn't we, like, you could have just killed him. Like, we don't hate killing people. We do hate chattel slavery. So I was a little bit like, I don't know. Sure, I guess. But sort of goes against your whole life's work, but okay. And then Hester's like, by the Way. I have a secret baby. There was a tiny secret baby trope.
- [69:16]
B
There's no baby in here.
- [69:18]
A
It's not like a full secret baby, though. But it's like, secret baby light. Because he doesn't know. But she knows. But she's not really keeping it from him. She's more just waiting for the right time.
- [69:27]
B
Yes.
- [69:28]
A
She's like, we're having a baby. Everyone's so excited. And then he's like, hey, when's your birthday? And she's like, don't know. Don't care. And he's like, oh, sorry I asked. Let's celebrate it on Christmas so I can give you lots of presents. And I said, this is so weird. I'm like, what's. I literally go, the book is falling off the rails right now. Like, what's happening?
- [69:47]
B
All right.
- [69:49]
A
And then he gives her a bunch of presents. And then he's like, one more. Close your eyes. And we hear rustling feet. And then it's like, surprise. Here's a cake. And a woman. And the woman is Hester's mom. Yes.
- [70:03]
B
Which totally surprised me.
- [70:05]
A
Which surprised me too. But here's my question. If you have your actual relationship. Happily ever after, 120 pages from the end of the book. Book. Do you need to have this late term happily ever after? Like, is this necessary to keep the romance going?
- [70:21]
B
No. I feel like this was just a. Like, because. Because I would. I was not expecting anything like this at the end of the book. Like, because. Because I felt like the happy happily ever after part was like, he saved her. And we got rid of Ezra Shoe. Done and done. Everybody's. And like, like, oh, okay. It's like, it's 1860. Civil War is about to start. Slavery's gonna end soon. Good.
- [70:46]
A
Good.
- [70:47]
B
And then her secret mom shows up. So that. That, I think was just a little bonus.
- [70:52]
A
It's a little bonus. Okay. I wasn't sure because I've never read a romance where the happily ever after happened so early.
- [70:57]
B
Yes.
- [70:58]
A
So I was like, do you have to have, like, a later one that's like, really? This is the one. Okay. Okay. And then are the mother's like, I'll stay. Her name's Francis. And she, like, happened, and she had
- [71:11]
B
been enslaved and he, like, he got her the money to buy herself out of slavery.
- [71:16]
A
Yeah. And it. He didn't go looking for her. He just, like, randomly found her when he was on another trip down south doing.
- [71:22]
B
Doing the work, I think when he
- [71:24]
A
went to the funeral. Yeah. John Brown's funeral. That's Right. And that's the end of our book. Now, I've written a list of tropes. Tell me if I got them.
- [71:34]
B
Okay.
- [71:35]
A
We've got. We talked about the virgin rake thing. Sick bed. Is that a trope? Like, yeah, definitely.
- [71:42]
B
Yes, that's definitely a trope.
- [71:43]
A
That.
- [71:44]
B
I think people call it something slightly different, but.
- [71:46]
A
Well, you know, I just make up,
- [71:47]
B
I don't know, Sick bed. Like, tending to someone.
- [71:49]
A
Yeah, tending. Secret Baby Light Junior.
- [71:55]
B
Although I would feel like if. When people talk about secret baby. This is not it.
- [71:59]
A
This is not it.
- [71:59]
B
This.
- [72:00]
A
Okay. Okay. This is just like, surprise baby, right? Yes. Okay. I have heard this described as enemies to lovers. I did not feel that it was that.
- [72:11]
B
No, I mean, they dislike each other in the beginning, but it's really only for the first, like, two chapters.
- [72:19]
A
Yeah.
- [72:20]
B
So I wouldn't describe this book as enemies.
- [72:22]
A
Okay. Is there such thing as a surprise wedding trope? Because I feel like we did have a surprise wedding.
- [72:27]
B
Yeah, there are definitely surprise weddings. Yeah.
- [72:29]
A
Okay. Slow burn. Is that considered a trope or is that just a style Burn is definitely a trope.
- [72:36]
B
I'm not sure if I would qualify this as a slow burn, though.
- [72:39]
A
I mean, even though it takes a. Like, it takes 100 pages for a kiss.
- [72:42]
B
Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. It did take 100 pages for the kiss, though. I feel like I have different standards for slow burn in historical.
- [72:51]
A
Okay.
- [72:52]
B
You know, but you're right. It did take 100 pages for the kiss. And it wasn't until like, 250 that they had sex. So.
- [72:57]
A
Yeah. And then is secret rich person a trope? Like, surprise, I'm rich. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. But also, like, rich man is a trope. Rich.
- [73:10]
B
Yeah. I mean, which is a trope I love. Like the Duke, the billionaire. Like, you know, 50 shades of gray. Yes, exactly.
- [73:17]
A
Like, deeply rich man. Yeah. I know that that's problematic, but this is. This is romance.
- [73:22]
B
That. That scene after they got married where he opened the door to this room, had been buying her presence ever since he first met her. And it's just like, full to the river presence. I was like, I love this.
- [73:38]
A
I love this. I think that's also why I like this book. These are all the tropes that I love, which is, like, hot, problematic man who's rich and wants to go down on her. Like, yeah, babe, sign me up. Where can I get one of those? You know? Like, that's what I'm talking about. About. But the one thing I had written down was no third act breakup. That was like the one trope that I was like sort of waiting for that we didn't get. Did I miss other tropes? I'm sure I did not.
- [74:04]
B
That I can immediately think of. I should have. I should have made a list.
- [74:08]
A
Okay, well, the thing that you brought up at the beginning that was like, there's these modern day parallels. One of the things that really struck me about the modern day parallels, obviously, like Ezra Shu and ICE Agents and all of that, and even a little bit the like, sort of trad wife, like, innocent woman thing. But the thing that really struck me was the need for fun in serious times. And like the communal care elements. Like when her house is broken into, there's a.
- [74:36]
B
There's a great quote about the need for fun in. In times like this. And I love that.
- [74:43]
A
Yeah. And the part when she's entered, he's introducing her around to all the, like, important figures at his house. And. And she's like, why are they all here? And he's like, well, you know, to take care of you. And she. And she's like, oh, do they owe you that much? And he says, well, we all owe each other that much. And I was like, that feels like what the conversations we're having right now.
- [75:02]
B
Yeah.
- [75:03]
A
And like, in a less sort of direct comparison way to like the ICE stuff, certainly like the work and the ethos of the underground railroad, I think we often think of as sort of like an adventure film. And this was reminding me that it's much more about like, care work and community work. And I think she really beautifully exemplified the thinking behind it.
- [75:24]
B
Absolutely. And just the scenes of like, the community. There's an emergency in the community and they all come together and solve it. Like, yeah, those are some of the most beautiful parts of the book for me. I really loved the, like, when the women went into the. To the jail and they're like, all
- [75:38]
A
right, we're gonna fix this.
- [75:39]
B
And they like, surround the women in jail and Hester stands in for her. Like. Like, yeah, those kind of things where they come together and solve a problem and they, like, don't have to. I mean, even though there was a secret viper in the mix, but, like, they don't. They know that the community is there for them. And I loved that.
- [75:59]
A
Okay. The last thing we always talk. Well, has there ever been a movie of this?
- [76:04]
B
No.
- [76:04]
A
I would watch this movie every day for the rest of my life.
- [76:08]
B
I feel like Beverly Jenkins book books, so many of them would be amazing movies. Like, this is the thing like talk about Bridgerton, right? Like, yes. Like her books would do so well because so many, I mean, so much of the dialogue is so kind of perfect for a movie dialogue and. Right. And it's like the discussion about the clothes and like the meals and she's.
- [76:31]
A
I mean, Reggae Jean, whatever his name. He could be Galen.
- [76:35]
B
He could be Galen.
- [76:36]
A
I mean, he's not quite light enough, but we'll go with that. Yeah, we'll put him in white face.
- [76:40]
B
It's fine.
- [76:41]
A
But like, it's right there. Everybody. Shonda, it's right there.
- [76:44]
B
This is like the, the romance novel version of Sinners. Right? Like, we need to get. We need to get some of the, like, you know, the big fancy black men directors to start doing some romance novels.
- [76:57]
A
I'm with you because I would eat this shit up. This is. This so good. The last thing we always talk about is the title and the COVID We talked about the title a little bit. It. I have this absolutely dreadful cover. This like new cover. It's just, it's like words and like diamonds and pearls. But I saw the clinch cover. It's stunning.
- [77:17]
B
Beautiful.
- [77:18]
A
It's beautiful. People who don't know. I learned about this. The clinch cover is the COVID that has like the people in the embrace, they're clinching one another. So that's what it means. It's old school. They do it now, but it's like drawings. But in the olden days, it was like pictures or drawings of pictures. It's like what you think of when you think of a romance novel. And the clinch cover on this is so hot though. He is also too light in that cover. I mean, too dark in that cover.
- [77:44]
B
Dark in that cover. But, but, but also I think that's because. Right. It's hard to show a light skinned
- [77:51]
A
black man without making it look like interracials.
- [77:53]
B
Without. Yes, right.
- [77:54]
A
No, I get it. I get it. But I just, I was like, why do I have this cover that looks like anything when I could have a cut? Like. And there's other iterations of the COVID but those ones with the people are really smoking hot. This is so.
- [78:10]
B
And I do. And I. And I love the title. I feel like it's a great title title for the book.
- [78:15]
A
Yeah. And I had no idea. I had no idea what it was going to be. There's just so. She pulls off so many delightful surprises throughout the book. And I really appreciated that. Like, I was like, what's gonna happen? I really didn't know. I didn't know what to Expect. And I just felt like she really did.
- [78:30]
B
No, I feel like the one thing, because I was sort of like, dreading the end of the book because I could tell it was leading up to Hester being captured.
- [78:38]
A
Right. Yeah.
- [78:39]
B
But luckily, because also, I don't like, you know, that that kind of stuff stresses me out. And I was like. Like, she was only captured for a few pages. It was fine.
- [78:52]
A
A few pages. And she was like, amongst friends mostly. Like, even though we hate Janine. It was like. Like, it's Janine. Like, I'm not worried. And even. I mean, she even says, I just have to stay alive long enough for Galen to come. And I was like, that's right.
- [79:05]
B
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.
- [79:06]
A
And we know you're gonna be safe. You.
- [79:09]
B
So it'll be fine.
- [79:10]
A
I went in sort of dreading the book because, as you know, I'm not really a romance person. And I walked out being like, this the best thing I've ever read. Like, I loved it.
- [79:20]
B
I love it so much.
- [79:22]
A
Okay, well, everybody listening at home. Stay tuned to the end of the episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. And they can pre order your book now.
- [79:32]
B
They can pre order my book now. Anywhere where you pre order books. I always do signed pre orders from East Bay Booksellers, which is my local Oakland bookstore. But you can pre order books wherever
- [79:43]
A
and tell them the title of the book one more time in case they forgot.
- [79:46]
B
It's called It's Only Dancing.
- [79:47]
A
Well, thank you so much, Jasmine and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks, foreign. Y'. All. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Jasmine Guillory for being our guest. Our book club pick for March is Paradise by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 25th. This will be our ninth Toni Morrison novel, discussed right here on this podcast. And you've got to tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be for this conversation. If you love the Stacks and you want more of it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com please make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, go ahead and leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram, Threads and YouTube. And you can always check out our website at thestaxpodcast. Com. This episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.