B (3:47)

Oh, thank you so much. Well, I think Toni Morrison was the smartest person that ever lived. So for me, it's just an honor to write about her. So, so great to be here to talk with you.

A (3:56)

That's a very diplomatic answer. You'll like this. So I have, I have six year old twin boys and I get a ton of books sent to the house. Right. And I had already read your book. I had an arc of it. And yesterday, last night, the finished copy came and I like opened it and my kid goes, mom, is that your great grandmother? And I said, I wish.

B (4:19)

You're like kind of.

A (4:20)

I was like spiritually, yeah, for sure. But I was like, I like to think that in some ways. Okay, before we even get to the book, I want to talk about you a little bit.

B (4:33)

Sure.

A (4:34)

Wait, how did you come to books? What is your sort of bookish origin story? Where did you grow up? What do you remember from childhood? Reading any and all of that?

B (4:45)

That's wonderful question. And it's wonderful to think about my mother. My actual mother was a big reader growing up in a small village in Zambia, which is where I'm from. She grew up in a place called Mbala and she would Tell a story of reading books under her bed with a candle. You know, that's. And staying up late at night and having this candle under the bed. And she told me that there was a point when we first moved to Baltimore, and I had become a really. I had become a real bookworm. I had already learned to read very young. My dad taught me to read very young. I think as an experiment. He's a developmental child psychologist, so he's like, let's try this out. So, I mean, I remember reading from the age of, you know, like, reading whole books, like, from age of, like, five, you know. But when I. When we came to Baltimore, I got very obsessed with reading. I was very lonely, and books were the best companions I could find. And my mom would find me with my little, like, side lamp under the covers, reading, and I would, of course, fall asleep. And it's so funny, there's a while where I believe that that lamp turned itself off automatically.

A (6:03)

Amazing.

B (6:04)

Not realizing. But the reason she let me do that is because she'd had the same thing growing up. My dad was a big reader. My grandpa on that side. That's the British side of my. So books were just always around and there. I do think that the moving from Zambia to America when I was about eight and a half years old really intensified my relationship to books. I basically lived at the local library, you know, after school. Like, that's where I wanted to be. I read so many books that it was, like, embarrassing, actually. I don't know if you. I think. I think I'm a little older than you, but we used to have this, like, Pizza Hut contest where you would, like. Yeah, and I won the Pizza Hut contest. But it was, like, embarrassing because they were, like, the second. Yeah, exactly. Second prize. Would have read, like, eight books. And while he read, like, 52. Like, did I actually read those, or did I just, like, immerse myself and drown in other people's words? Because I was so lonely, you know?

A (7:05)

Yeah.

B (7:06)

So that's. But I. I think, you know, being lonely and having that be the path to this whole world of literature is a gift, you know?

A (7:21)

Yeah.

B (7:21)

I just love it.

A (7:23)

Do you remember what you were reading as a kid?

B (7:27)

Yeah. So the book that I was saying I remembered reading and, like, trying to read, I should say, when I was five, is called the Coral Island.

A (7:40)

Okay.

B (7:41)

It's like an adventure book I remember reading. And there's a. There's a story that my mom used to tell about, and this will be relevant when we talk about paradise later on. That my mom would go to church every Sunday. Her father was a minister, and my father did not. And so he would stay home. And I read the children's Bible, you know, so not the original, but the children's Bible cover to cover, when I was about 7 years old and I had all these questions, and my mom was like, okay, read it again. So I read it again, and I still had questions. And she's like, okay, you can stay home with your father. So I remember. That's another book. When we came to the U.S. one of the books that really grabbed me was this book, Bridge to Terabithia.

A (8:31)

Oh, yeah.

B (8:33)

Broke my heart. Broke my heart. What an incredible book.

A (8:37)

What a banger.

B (8:38)

I know. I was like, I still, you know, I still have a real interest in, like, speculative fiction in my own work. And Morrison also made use of Enchantment, as she called it. I read a lot of, like, detective stories, Nancy Drew, Tom, you know, the Hardy Boys, that kind of thing. And then, you know, in school, we were reading really amazing things. The Tripod trilogy. I remember reading as a. Like my Introduction to Science Fiction.

A (9:08)

Okay.

B (9:10)

Yeah. So, yeah.

A (9:13)

Do you remember the first Morrison you book you read and how old you were and what any. If you remember any thoughts you had at that time.

B (9:24)

I do. So. You know, I think a lot of people encounter Morrison through reading the Bluest Eye in school.

A (9:33)

Yes, I've heard about this.

B (9:35)

Yeah, but. Which I'm like, she even thought that that was inappropriate.

A (9:40)

I'm also just like, who's teaching the class? Like, it's less that the book is inappropriate, which it is, but. But also like, Ms. Jackson, or like, more like Miss. Like Ms. Miller is just teaching it.

B (9:55)

There's this real confusion, and it really upsets me, actually, that I think it's a book about a young person. And so they assume it's a book for young people. And there's this kind of like, tokenistic, like, we're going to. And actually the experience I had with that in high school was being given their eyes were watching God, which was, again, like, not taught to me well, but they were like, we need a black woman, you know, But I was like, we're reading about very intense things.

A (10:22)

We did Color Purple in high school.

B (10:24)

Oh, my God. Like, that book is like.

A (10:27)

And you know what? I to this day, don't love the Color Purple. And I think that's why, like, I don't like the movie. I've seen the musical. I don't like the musical. Like, for whatever reason, it didn't Click with me in high school, and I just cannot do it. Like, I'm just like, yeah, it's fine. So I don't know, but. Sorry. So you guys are watching. God.

B (10:47)

But, you know, it's interesting because I did not read the Color Purple in high school. I read the Color Purple as a professor at Berkeley to teach a class on genre fiction. And I was, like, doing all the genres, right? So I was doing bestsellers. And so we read, you know, the Joy Luck Club, and we read like, the Bourne Conspiracy. And we read the. You know, we read the Color Purple. And the thing about the Color Purple is that I do think you have to be older to read it because it's actually really funny.

A (11:17)

I gotta go back and read it. I gotta give it another chance.

B (11:19)

And it's like, it's kind of remarkable to me because that's not what people associate with that book at all. But I was cracking up when I was reading it to teach. But the same thing happened to me with Morrison is that because my family moved back to Zambia my junior year of high school school, I missed a lot of the things that kind of books that you normally get to read in that year, including the Bluest Eyes. So I didn't really get to read Morrison until college. I had. I do remember, though, picking up my sister's copy, my older sister who was in college, her copy of Beloved, like, from her shelf or from her coffee table, and opening it and being like, what? Like, just did not understand anything that was happening. So. So I then, like, had to, you know, actually had to read it because it was assigned to me. And Jazz was also assigned to me in college. So I read those and I wrote papers about them. And it was very like. I mean, to me, I was like, I'm being assigned, you know, great canonical literature as a. As a young English major in college. Like, I didn't really. I didn't really read that many books without a pencil in my hand in college. And so my. The experience that sits with me the most about an encounter with Morrison was reading SULA when I was in graduate school. I was, like, procrastinating. I was supposed to be working on my dissertation. And I had read Morrison, I had written about Morrison, but I had never read sula. And I saw on my advisor's shelf, because I was house sitting for her. It was like summer, that old edition of SULA that has like, the Afro and like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's like the best cover. And I was like, oh, I always meant to read this One. And I opened it, and the whole day was just devoted to that glorious experience, at the end of which, of course, like everybody, I wept and wept and wept, you know?

A (13:18)

Was that your. Is that your favorite? Do you have a favorite?

B (13:21)

So the way I like to say it is, sula has my heart.

A (13:24)

Okay.

B (13:25)

Beloved has my soul.

A (13:26)

Okay.

B (13:27)

And Jazz has my mind.

A (13:28)

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So on this show, we read one more sin a year. This will be our ninth one.

B (13:36)

Amazing.

A (13:37)

Which is crazy. And we have had.

B (13:38)

So you've only got two to go, right? Because there's 11.

A (13:40)

I think I have. Well, this one will be. This one will be nine. Paradise will be nine. So then after that, we'll just have love and home.

B (13:49)

Yeah. Amazing.

A (13:51)

Which it's. When we first set out to do it, we started with Bluest Eye. The show was brand new. I did it with a friend of mine, Renee. Neither of us had read it. I had never read any Morrison going into this project. So every time I read a Morrison for the show, it is my first time.

B (14:09)

Amazing.

A (14:10)

Which is. I mean, it's really fun, but also, like, I feel it's the most vulnerable I ever feel on the show because I'm like, it's really hard to publicly be like, I don't. I have no clue. Like, I probably need to read this again.

B (14:20)

Yeah.

A (14:21)

But when we started, it was just like, whoever wanted. Whatever black woman wanted to come on the show and do Morrison, each year, they could pick. So we started with Blue Aside, and then we did Beloved, and then we went back into. And then, like, after Song of Solomon, we did A Mercy, and, like, we did it out of order. And I think in some ways, it was sort of fun to do that. And in some ways, I'm like, maybe we should have done it in order. But now that we're getting to the end, like, the last few years, we've done Tar Baby and Jazz, and now we're gonna. And. And last year, we did God Help the Child, and then this year, we're doing Paradise. And I do feel like myself as a reader of Toni Morrison and also my audience who's been on this journey with me, we're so much better at reading Toni Morrison because, like, I think Jazz is a really hard book, and I struggle so much with Jazz. But also, I didn't feel any of the. Like, I'm failing. I felt a lot of the. Like, this is possible, and this is possible. I'm like, this is probably wrong, but this is what I saw. And, like, oh, she loves to do this or like. So I do feel like going to read your book on Morrison, where each chapter you take us through a book, except for at the end, we get a few books together, we get a mercy and a few of the later books together.

B (15:37)

Yes.

A (15:38)

Was such an enjoyable experience for me, and I think for people listening to the show have been reading Morrison with us, like, you guys are going to love it because we. We've done this, like, slowly over the course of eight years or whatever. So I guess the question here for you is, like, why did you want to write this book? And how did you decide how you would tackle it? Because there are a thousand and one ways. Yeah, you could write a book about Toni Morrison's work.

B (16:10)

That's a really good question. I mean, I think, you know, the way that you've described your podcast, it's like, you know, it's like a reading group. It's also like, like a course. There's like a. It's like a syllabus, you know, like, it's like you read the text together and you talk about it. And that's precisely where my book came from. I taught a course on Morrison, and it was a lecture course, and I moved chronologically, and it was an opportunity for me to revisit a lot of the books, but it was also, for me, an opportunity to fill in the gaps, to read books for the first time that I hadn't read. So the Bluest Eye, I really read. Maybe. Maybe I read the second time. But for me, it felt like a first reading of the Bluest Eye. And it was the first time I read Tar Baby. There was a way in which it allowed me to kind of see the whole of Morrison, which felt very important for two reasons. One, I wanted to show my colleagues and my students that Morrison is a single author, course type of author that you can spend a whole semester. I mean, you could spend a whole year, and you would not even reach, you know, level one of the depths of Morrison work. Every work is so profound, so rich, and they're all very different from each other. I know we have a sense, like, oh, Morrison has a style, and there are patterns, there are things she likes to do, but the every. She's challenging herself. Every book to do something new and interesting because, like, to interest herself, you know, she's like, often does things on a lark. She does things just to see. And I think that allows students to see the ambition. Right. And of that, I also felt like it was important to have that breadth just for my own sake as a Writer and Morrison said writing for her was a slow and advanced form of reading. And I always felt the same way. Like, people would ask me about my writing process as a novelist, and I would say, I feel like I read my books into being. And being able to think about reading as this really productive way of thinking through the possibilities of what the novel can do. I mean, Morrison broke the novel form open. People don't really say that. I think they're much more interested in, like, what the stories were about. But as a. As a practitioner of the art of writing fiction, the kinds of things that she was playing with and doing, the way she was pushing black forms in particular, you know, the book Jazz, she says, you know, jazz. That novel is not about jazz. It is jazz. She is using improvisatory techniques. And when you were talking about, like, you know, not knowing or being wrong about something, that is a crucial part of the form of jazz, where the narrator at some point is like, oh, I got the character's wrong. It's incredible to be able to do that kind of thing. And I just. I just was like, this is going to be an education for me to write this book. And then when I got the opportunity to visit her archives, revisit her interviews, and get all of the context for what she was trying to do, I just. It just. It was a project that felt like it was meant to be.

A (19:39)

You call yourself a. A close reader in the introduction chapter. And I was laughing so hard because I think of myself as extremely, like, not a close reader. And so I was like, oh, we're gonna have so much fun, because I can't wait to read a book with a close reader. Obviously, like, you've written about Paradise. And so for people listening at home, I have not read paradise yet. Obviously you have. I will read paradise between our. Between the time we record. And I skipped the paradise essay in Namwali's book so that we could have, like, a real, true conversation. Once we finish recording, I will run and read it, because I'm really exc. Excited to. But I was like, let me not get Namwali's, like, thinking in my mind so that we can really, like, come at it and discuss the things that maybe we come to differently.

B (20:26)

This is exactly how I read, you know, when I. When there's, like, a review or a work of criticism, an essay about a novel, even a preface or forward to a book, I skip it because I'm like, I want my own experience. Experience first. And I also think Morrison is one of those writers where she is so careful about what she wants you to experience through the form of the book. So you actually have to, like, let it pass over. You have to join the creation of the. Of the book, the world. You have to feel all the feelings.

A (21:00)

Yeah.

B (21:00)

It's only like, when you revisit it, either rereading it or, you know, hopefully reading a work of criticism or an essay about it, like the ones in my book, that you then start to understand. How did she make me feel those things?

A (21:13)

Right.

B (21:14)

Like, how did she do that? With language. My goodness.

A (21:17)

Yeah.

B (21:17)

So it. For me, it's very much a book that's. It promotes the rereading of Toni Morrison.

A (21:22)

Yes, it does. I mean, my big thing is once we finish all the books, I plan to do a Toni Morrison year where I read one of the novels a month after having read them over the course of, like, 10 years or 11 years. That's my. That's my own little personal plan.

B (21:38)

Yeah.

A (21:38)

I want to know about. You say this in the book, and I think Toni Morrison says this as well, is like a. Not a novel should teach us how to read it. Or like, the novel itself, she's. How to read it. What does that mean to you? How do you interpret that?

B (21:58)

So there are different ways that, as you said, when you read more Morrison, you've. You feel like you've learned how to read Morrison.

A (22:09)

Yeah.

B (22:09)

And part of that is because you start to recognize patterns of what she's doing. But part of that is also because Morrison cues you with, you know, the. The technical term for it in literary studies is covert metafiction. But to break that down, what it means is it's like subtle ways of pointing to what the text is doing even as it is telling you the story. Right. So for, you know, a wonderful example is actually from the opening page of the Bluest Eye, where I should say it's. It's. It's always compliment. Complicated for me when I cite this, because I'm like, it's not exactly the opening page.

A (22:52)

Right.

B (22:52)

Because she begins with this very experimental Dick and Jane stories. Right. That she then runs together. But then when the novel, you know, really begins, we have the famous opening line, quiet, as it's kept. It was wonderful to look at the manuscripts in the archives and realize that she added that. That that was not originally the opening she. But she knew that's the one that's the line. But the end of that opening, which gives you the whole plot of the whole novel in the first paragraph, which she does in Jazz as Well, she loves.

A (23:29)

She doesn't believe in spoilers, even though I do.

B (23:32)

Yeah, exactly. The thing about it is, like, as she says at the end of that, she says, there's really nothing more to say. I've told you the story. And then she says, except why? Why did it happen?

A (23:44)

Yeah.

B (23:45)

But since why is difficult to handle, one must take refuge in how. And what she's doing is she's immediately making you. Priming you to, okay, I'm going to be reading this not with an eye to what happened. And, like, that suspense of, like, okay, what's next? What's next? What's next? Yeah, and what's the plot twist? What you're going to be reading it towards is, you know, what happened.

A (24:06)

Right.

B (24:07)

But why did it happen and how did it happen?

A (24:10)

Right.

B (24:11)

And that. That's the kind of thing I mean by covert metafiction.

A (24:15)

Right.

B (24:15)

These subtle ways of, like, I'm going to teach you how to read this. I'm going to show you, through my language, through my form, exactly how you're to approach this book. So there's. There's all these scenes, for example, in Song of Solomon, where men are joking with each other about really dark things. And, you know, I talk about this as a kind of version of signifying, or the dozens, as we call it, which always has this edge. It's always a little aggressive, you know, But I think part of what Morrison is doing there is she's cueing us to understand that the purpose of reading this book is to be in conversation about it. And you can disagree. Actually, you might have a totally different understanding of who's right and who's wrong, who did the right thing, who did the wrong thing, Even what happened in the book.

A (25:08)

Yeah.

B (25:09)

But there is something productive about talking about it. There's something pleasurable about talking about it regardless. Right. So that's. That's what I mean about Morrison teaching us how to read in the book itself.

A (25:22)

Okay, speaking of these discussions and, like, what happened in the book, there are a few books, too, that come to mind for me that have these big questions that every reader is like, what was that in Jazz? It's like, who is this narrator? And then in Tar Baby, it's like, like, what's happened here at this ending? Like, what. Wait, what has happened here? I remember closing the book and being like, I love that I have no clue what the ending was. And I text friend of the podcast, Kia say Lehman. And I was like, hey, I just finished Tar Baby. Like, what happens at the end? And he was like, dude, nobody knows. And I was like, oh, okay. Thank God. I was like, I thought I missed something. But in your book, especially for this narrator, you offer an answer. I won't say it's the answer. You offer an answer. How much pressure did you feel in writing this book to answer some of these types of questions that many readers sort of come away with?

B (26:18)

Well, I think it's always more important in talking about literature to clarify the question than it is to answer it.

A (26:29)

Okay.

B (26:29)

Because part of the reason.

A (26:31)

See, you are so smart. Oh, my gosh.

B (26:33)

Well, that's almost a direct question quote from Morrison. She says, you know, I'm not here to give her the answers. The novel is there to open up a bunch of questions. And she. She actually connects us back to African folk tales, where she says, you don't close in those stories with the moral of the story or the message. What you do is you turn to the reader or to the listener and you say, what do you think? What do you think happened? Right. And that is an ethos for her, because she's like, that's. The purpose of this work of art is to create conversation in a community and to talk about the big things. It's almost like a work of philosophy. You know, you're supposed to argue about it, you're supposed to talk. You supposed to be in dialogue about it. And, you know, for me, as an interpreter of literature, what I'm trying to do for students is. Is just to articulate, you know, what is the question and why is there a question? Right. So. And also, how does that question manifest in the book? So, you know, the reason that we don't know what happens at the end of Tar Baby is because she very purposefully merges the narrative events that have been taking place. We have characters we know they're going to a place that we know they're approaching, you know, an island, but everything is dark. And then she's using her language to incorporate the tones and even, like, the words that we associate with myth. Right. And this is specifically the myth of the Chevaliers on Ile de Chevalier, where it's the myth of these horsemen that are blind, you know, and that's why it's dark at night. Yeah. And that's at night, isn't it?

A (28:19)

I thought he walked into the mist, but I can't remember.

B (28:22)

Yeah.

A (28:22)

In my mind. In my mind, the image that I have, because I'm like, a reader who visualizes, is that he walks into, like, a misty thing. But there's also a lot of Mist in that book in general. So it could be that I've just sort of put. It could be night. It could be a foggy night.

B (28:39)

Yeah, I think. I think it probably is a foggy night. And you're right. And I hadn't. I hadn't actually recalled that, but that is. This is the kind of thing I love about talking about books together, is that I talk a lot about, like, the fog, which is being compared to, like, the hair of the aunts.

A (28:56)

Yeah, Right.

B (28:57)

And that is fog at night. But it only just occurred to me that that is a pattern that she's coming back to at the end of the book. It's wonderful. That's a wonderful observation. Either way, you know, fog, dark, Both obscurity. But since she's also introducing the language about this myth, which is that these. That there was a slave ship that was wrecked and the Africans swum to shore and then learned how to ride these horses, and that they are still riding at night, and they're. But they're blind. Right. Which is just an incredible image. And she makes all this up, by the way. The island is made up, the story is made up, but she adopts the language of the myth while she's talking about a character. So the character's running, but then you have, like, the sound of horses, you know, and so you're like, wait, are we in the myth or are we in the story? And because we don't know whether he reaches his goal, we are. She's doing this classic Morrisonian trick of opening the door to multiple different interpretations. And she. She's talked about this with Tar Baby in particular. She's says, you know, because it's like he's going back to a former lover, or he's trying to. And so the question of whether he joins the Chevaliers and is just with those men riding in the dark, or whether he goes and finds Jay Dean. She wanted that to be an open question, because that book is very much about love, but also about the war between men and women. My goodness.

A (30:28)

Yeah. We have to come off this. I. I could do, like, seven hours with you on this book. Honestly, one of the things that I always talk to people about when we talk about Morrison is I have a background in theater. I know she had a background in theater. And I cannot read her work and not think of Shakespeare. And I feel like she does not get enough comparison to Shakespeare. And I like. To me, Song of Solomon is, like, so Shakespearean. I just. To me. And also Tar Baby, like, the scenes in Tar Baby. Are so theatrical. They are like the two dinner scenes. I'm like, put this on a stage. So I don't know if you. In your research and your trips to the archive, if you came across any kind of connections to her and Shakespeare, but if you did, I just want you to tell me about them.

B (31:12)

Yes. No, of course. Well, so, yeah, theater was very important to her. She played Queen Elizabeth in a Shakespearean play at Howard's. There's a wonderful image of her looking regal as anything she always did. But it's nice to see. It's like, young. You know, it's like. It's amazing. But. And at that time, it was young Chloe, because Tony was her nickname and her baptismal name. But she also studied drama in various capacities. She's interested in Greek drama in her master's thesis. But I think, most pertinently to your question about Shakespeare, she wrote a play called Desdemona, which is a response to Shakespeare's Othello. And what's interesting is you might. It might be sort of surprising that she would choose to write about the white woman in the play. But actually, what she's interested in is Desdemona's nurse, who in Othello is named Barbary or Barbara, which is very likely an allusion to barbarian. Right. To the barbarians. And the coast of Africa was called that during Shakespeare's time. So there's a really strong implication that not only does she fall in love with an African, but that her nurse was an African. And this nurse who Morrison renamed Sauron, she gives her, like, an African name. It ends up playing songs and singing songs and plays a role in her version of this drama. It's a remarkable play. It's very odd. She also. Morrison also wrote a play called Dreaming Emmett that for a long time we thought was lost. We thought all copies had been destroyed. It was only produced once when Morrison was at suny, I think for a year. But now we have copies of it in the archives that we can study and talk about. And I know that she gave a copy to a critic to write about and also to a company who was thinking about producing it. So we might actually get to see. See that again someday.

A (33:23)

Be so great. The. The Barbary scene in Othello is my favorite. Is my favorite scene in all of Shakespeare. The scene between Amelia and Desdemona. It's like the most per. I mean, maybe not all of Shakespeare, but it is up there. It is perfect scene. It is a beautiful scene. So when I was reading that in your book I was like, of course it comes. Like the seed comes from this perfect scene.

B (33:47)

Yeah.

A (33:47)

Okay, before we come off Morrison, my last thing I want to say to you, and this is actually where your book starts. Your introduction is about how Toni Morrison was a difficult woman. Complimentary. So the way that I read your book, speaking of books, teaching us how to read them, is I actually read, I would say, 75% of your book, essay by essay, one day at a time, out loud, full voice to myself. So I would sit in the room alone and I would read it out loud because I sometimes need to hear arguments made. I oftentimes will start Toni Morrison books in this way, and then once I get the rhythm, I'll switch to just reading in my head. But I also started this book the Week of the Internet Freak out, about how Toni Morrison was mean to someone at a book signing. And it was like, you know, I hate to say it, someone put on threads. Hate to say this, but I met Toni Morrison once, and she was rude to me. Or something along those lines.

B (34:45)

Yeah.

A (34:45)

The entire thread, universe, Instagram, just everybody was then either saying, yes, she was rude to me, or, no, she doesn't owe you anything. And in the midst of this chaos, I am reading your opening chapter about how Toni Morrison was a difficult woman. Again, complimentary.

B (35:06)

Yeah.

A (35:06)

I would love for you to tell me why you wanted to start your book with us thinking about her in that way. I.

B (35:17)

Absolutely. I mean, it's. Well, one of the things that's so telling about this recent discourse, let's say to me, is that it's. It's not new. Like, this is how they all. This is how people talked about Morrison from the beginning.

A (35:37)

Right.

B (35:37)

And there I start with, you know, these profiles that they. That two different magazines did of her or newspaper magazine did of her right after Song of Solomon came out. And they both are like, yeah, she's real, like, spiky and a little and contrary. And in one of them, she says, I really relish being difficult. It's something I've come to really relish. And I was really fascinated by the way this public image of her difficulty intersected with what we might call her contrarian political takes.

A (36:12)

Yeah.

B (36:13)

Which often are very. Not off putting to people, but they can really, like, you know, shock you.

A (36:21)

Yeah.

B (36:21)

And I was really interested in how both of those, the personal difficulty and the political difficulty intersected with what is widely acknowledged to be her literary difficulty. Right. Which is something we prize in people like Shakespeare or people like Faulkner or people like James Joyce. But that we tend to find frustrating in people like Morrison. And she cites someone in one of these early interviews who was like, I found it really hard to understand what it was you were trying to convey. And she's like, wow, you must have had a really hard time with Beowulf. And it's like this kind of sense that, like, you know, a black woman should not be difficult, I think really pervaded her career from beginning to end. You know, paradise, which we were talking about before someone interviewed her. And this is 97, right? So those earlier quotes are from, like, the late 70s. In 97, she gets somewhere saying, this book has been widely considered to be difficult. And she says, that makes me breathless to hear that this is difficult writing. Like, she was incensed. And she was like, to me, black readers, we are fastidious. We are. And she was like, jazz is one of the most difficult forms ever to exist, but we still love jazz. Like, what is the. What is. What is making this so pervasive a way of understanding me and of judging, right, me for this? And I found, you know, in going through the archives, I found her notes for, you know, she did lots of little public events, and she was asked to speak at the opening of a center for music. And it was in honor of a black woman who's a pianist and a composer named Mary Lou Williams. And Morrison says, you know, I never met her. I didn't know her, but I asked around and I said, you know, what was she like? And people said, difficult. And she said, difficult, like in the work or like, in her person. And they were like, all of that. And she was like. And this really pleased me because it means that she insisted on being taken seriously. And I was like, this perfectly captures what I think needs to happen in our understanding of what difficulty might be for a black woman writer, that we need actually to take it seriously rather than take it as an excuse to judge her or not to read her or dismiss her or to tear her down and be like, she doesn't deserve all of that. You know, that aspect of Morrison had purpose. What was really interesting to me is how much of her interviews is dedicated, not explaining her work, but justifying it. Right? Justifying the ambiguity, justifying the difficulty and talking about what it is meant to produce for us, what is meant to do for us. Right? I think we think of difficulty as something that pushes you away way it's like, oh, this is off putting. It's. It's so smart, but it's. And it's also, like, so hard that it's like, it's. It's too challenging and I'm tired. You know, I want to enjoy my book. But she felt like if I give you everything, then you're just going to passively receive it.

A (39:53)

Yes.

B (39:53)

And what I want is for you to lean in and work out what it is that's happening. And that participatory ethos you, she says I had leave gaps in some spaces in the text for the reader to step in. Yeah, it's not easy. And I think we are losing, as I'm sure you know, the capacity to read in this way. But I think you're right. That openness, allowing yourself to experience it, allowing yourself to be challenged, allowing yourself to be confused, uncertain, knowing that there is a payoff here, There is a reason that we're doing this a thousand percent.

A (40:30)

I mean, I think that's why this project of reading these books kind of publicly for the first time has been, like I said, like, both sort of a little bit embarrassing and also, like, really fulfilling. Is that it? I do feel like in some ways I get to model that, like, it's okay not to know what happens at the end of Tar Baby. Like, it's okay. I, you know, I think he dies. That's what I think. But, like, you know, who cares?

B (40:57)

You know, like, gullible interpretation.

A (40:59)

And I think that, like, I do. I do think we've really lost the ability to be uncomfortable with being challenged in a lot of. Not all of us and not for everything. But I do think, like, engaging with art in a challenging way is just something that, like, we are not teaching people is not valued. And I think Morrison really makes us can confront that in a lot of ways.

B (41:22)

Yeah.

A (41:23)

Okay. We're gonna transition. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. We're gonna. We are finally transitioning into spring. And as the weather begins to change over the coming weeks, there's one thing you can count on staying the same. It's your weekly dose of great reads, exclusive author interviews, and behind the scenes book gossip, AKA this very podcast. Your support on Patreon and Substack is what makes it possible for me to consistently deliver you the bookish nonsense of your dreams on Patreon, which you can find@patreon.com the stacks. You can join the Stacks Pack community. We do a monthly meetup where we discuss our book club pick. There is a private, extremely active discord. Plus members get an exclusive bonus episode every single month. If you're looking for other book nerds to geek out with. The Stacks pack is your place and then over on Substack which is tracy thomas.substack.com you can subscribe to my newsletter. 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Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com the stacks go to shopify.com the stacks that's shopify.com the stacks in this season of my life, I am only concerned about achieving peak comfort and I have now found a brand that I know can help me accomplish this. The brand is Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth elevates the everyday with high quality, intentionally crafted pajamas, blankets, bedding. They take comfort to the next level. If you have listened to this podcast, if you follow me on social media, you know that I am obsessed with my bamboo pajama set. And today I'm here to tell you about another item I have gotten from Cozy Earth that is ridiculously exceptional. I feel sort of embarrassed telling you this but like their socks are amazing. Okay? They are soft. They are cushiony but not too thick. They are breathable but also supportive in all the places that you need. Plus you can also try Cozy Earth's products risk free. The brand offers 100 night sleep trial that gives you up to 100 nights to try their bedding before you decide if you're going to keep or return or exchange. And because comfort is meant to endure, they offer a 10 year warranty that protects your purchase against damage for an entire decade. We call that zero risk and all the reward. If you're ready to try out Cozy Earth, use my code, the Stacks for up to 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort and make every day feel intentional. We're back. I didn't prep you for this, but we do this every month. It's called Ask the Stacks. Somebody emails Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com I need more of these, so please send them to me. This one's from Deanna. She's asking for a book recommendation. We're going to give her a few, so here's what she's looking for. Hello Tracy and guest. I am in the process of building myself a personal curriculum for the 250th anniversary of the US such as it is. Insert all the caveats. I already read with the podcast and participate. So I. I know I'm always learning about this country with this crew, but I'd like to be more intentional about the selections for this curriculum. My question is what are some recommendations that you feel are quintessentially American? Or explain something about this country that I simply must add to my list? Can be fiction or non fiction, genre poetry, whatever. Here's what I have thought of so far. Far the Warmth of Other Suns this would be a reread, but it's a duh for this project. These Truths by Joe Leor White Trash America America the 1619 Project the things We Carried We Were Once A Family Roots the Joy Luck Club and then as the final Sign off as a total troll move. Deanna says, I know Tracy is going to say gone with the Wind, and I'll allow it. What else would you add to the list? And it's true. I would say Gone with the Wind. So you can do one to three recommendations. If you would like to start. You can. Or I can start if you need a moment to think.

B (47:25)

I don't need a moment to think. Okay, you go ahead. I will suggest two possible Morrison novels. A Mercy, which is about America before it really consolidates into the America we know and is a woman. Wonderful evocation of the chaos of what was both an Edenic and a kind of hellish world where people from all different walks of life and cultures are kind of intersecting in very surprising ways. And Morrison did a lot of actual historical research for that novel. So it's. It's a really amazing book. If you find it too complicated. It is a complicated book, has multiple narrative styles, and there's a narrator, but then there's also a character who narrates. I would recommend her book Home, which is a novel that's very interested in the homeland that is America and is very interested in the various aspects of American history that have to do with claiming a home but also being pushed out of your home. And I think it's, again, a really wonderful book where you, again, have a character sometimes talking back to the narrator, which is amazing. But I think those are two very slim Morrison books. That would be great. And then I'm gonna have to say it, and I don't know if you're gonna have time for this, but Moby Dick. Gotta go with my Melville. I mean, that is a wild book. And Morrison loved that book. Her reading of that book is incredible. You know, we. We often talk about, like, Ahab is going after the great white whale, and she's like, yeah, the whiteness of the Whale, which is the title of a chapter that's American Whiteness. Let's talk about it. And let's talk about it in relation to the multicultural crew of the Pequot. Right. So I think those are my three that I would suggest.

A (49:31)

Those are so good. We did A Mercy here with Imani Perry, which was. And that's her favorite Morrison. And so she picked it. And that was. That was, I think, for me, the hardest one, because we read it sort of early in the process of reading these books, and it's a tricky one, but she brought so much to it, like, because. Hello.

B (49:52)

So one of the possibilities is that because the book was originally titled Mercy in drafts. And then last, in the very last manuscript, someone has penciled in a. And both on the title page and on the last page where it's cited. And my friend Neil was like, you know, a mercy is almost an anagram of America. And I was like, wow. And so I talk about the novel's anagrammatic style because I do think it's like, jumbling identities. Yeah.

A (50:26)

So good. Okay, Dana, here are mine. My first one is stamped from the beginning by Ibram X Kendi. I think in some ways, some of his books have sort of lost. He's lost his way in some of his books. Not this one. This book is a banger, okay? It won the Pulitzer for a reason or the National Book Award or whatever it is doing a lot of heavy lifting on. For the creation of race in America. And it is worth every page. My other recommendation, which I. The other two I have not read, but they are on my American reading list. One is the History of White People by Nell Irvin Painter. I've heard it's a fantastic history about whiteness, which I think, you know, we talk a lot about white people, but we don't talk a lot about whiteness in the ways that we talk about and sort of pathologize other ethnic racial groups. So I'm. And she's brilliant. So I'm just really curious about that. And then this other one, I have this crazy reading project going on this year by accident, where I'm reading, like, white nationalist texts. It's happened to me somehow this year, and so now I'm fully in it. And the one that's on my list that I actually think maybe we all need to be reading this book is the Fountain Head by Anne Rand. Because this book, every man in power loves this fucking book, okay? All these assholes, they love this book. It is a Republican just fucking manifesto. I bet. I bet Ted Cruz has a tattoo of it on his heart. And I think that the books that these men. Men are reading are currently shaping our country in a way that we're not giving them credit for. I also think, like, Infinite Jest. All these men love Infinite Jest. I'm like, what is that doing to the men? And in turn, what is that doing to the rest of us, right? So, like, I do think there's something interesting about reading a book like the Fountain Head that is this novel that has captured the imaginations of. Of so many people who wield power and in an evil way. So I don't know. So, like, that's like Something that I would throw out there. It's not as like, you know, it's not as enjoyable as, like the Joy Luck Club, certainly. But I think it might help, like, shape some of the other pieces of the history that you're bringing in. So those are my suggestions. People at home email Ask the Stacks of the stacks podcast.com to get your questions. I read on the air and now we turn to you. We always start here. Two books you love, one book you hate.

B (53:06)

I mean, when we were talking about difficulty, a book that I read that's a debut that I really love came to mind, which is Maya Binyam's Hangman.

A (53:17)

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

B (53:19)

I really, I really love that book.

A (53:21)

It's difficult. Complimentary.

B (53:23)

Well, it's difficult in the sense that you, you really don't know what's going on. So a lot of it, but then it like, clicks together at the end. And it's also very funny. And I'm very into, like, books that are smart and funny. It's also, like, resists a lot of the things that we want to say about Africa because it's set in a kind of unnamed African country. And so I also really love that about it. I mean, a book I hate. I'll just jump to because it came to mind when you said Gone with the Wind is I really hate Uncle Tom's Cabin. But it's an important book and it's a book, you know, it's a book that you could put on a list about America. I was just thinking about it because I recently taught Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte and was realizing in looking over my old notes that she was a huge fan. She was really interested in slave narratives in the slave movement and thinking about or the anti slavery movement and the abolitionists and thinking about how she incorporates parts of that into Jane Eyre has been fascinating. I think. I'll say Jane Eyre. I just taught it. It's a book I adore. Every time I read it, I find something new and there are parts of it that like, pierce my heart. That, and that also just, you know, my students were like, this is a really radical book. And I was like, yes, there is a boat. There's a woman in 1847 saying to her boss, who is twice her age, I am your equal. Like, that's an actual quote from the book. It's incredible. So, yeah, I'll say. I'll say Jane Eyre.

A (55:06)

What are you reading right now? And do you read multiple books at once?

B (55:09)

Well, I'm reading to teach, and so it's very hard for me to read books for pleasure when I'm in the middle of the semester. I just finished rereading Jane Eyre. I just finished rereading. For the other class, I'm teaching Sheila Hedy's How Should a Person Be? So I'm teaching a genre fiction class, which is also a creative writing workshop. So they're going to write their own genre fiction and I'm teaching an auto fiction.

A (55:36)

Oh.

B (55:37)

So that was very, very different from each other. So Jane Eyre and Sheila Heddy. I just reread Annie or knows Happening also for the autofiction class. And I have in my possession I only taught the opening of Knausgard's My Struggle, but I have volume one, and if I can find even an inch of time in the next stretch of book tour, I'm going to try to spend time with that book.

A (56:06)

Are there any books besides the first volume of My Struggle that you're looking forward to reading personally?

B (56:15)

Can I say two? One is Edward P. Jones's all on Hager's Children, which is. It's a book of short stories, mostly set in D.C. and I'm writing a novel that's set in D.C. and his stories are just incredible. My God. So that was like. I was like, this is literally a new favorite, you know, short story of mine, which is called Spanish in the Mornings. And then the other. The other book I read for the first time last year is a book by Shirley Hazard called the Transit of Venus. Incredible. It's just an incredible book. Okay, but so what am I looking forward to reading? For personal reading, I'm teaching Ben Lerner's Leaving the Atocha Station, and I'd like to read 1004. And he has a new novel coming out, so I'm looking forward to that. I'm really excited to read Arundhati Roy's

A (57:10)

memoir about her mother, Mother Mary, comes to me.

B (57:13)

Yeah, I would really love to read that. But, you know, a lot of the books I'm surrounded by mostly my husband's books here in our house in Cambridge. And it's like I just walk around and I just like, pull up. I'm like, oh, I always wanted to read this one. And right now, Tony Cape Umbar's Gorilla, My Love. And I don't know how to pronounce his name, but Taya.

A (57:44)

Yeah, Season Migration to the North. So we did that for book club here a few years ago.

B (57:49)

Yeah, so that's. That's the other one that I. But these. I mean, I know I. I should Be saying, like, newer books that are on their way out. But I.

A (57:57)

You don't have to say that. Everybody gets to say what they want. Are there any genres that people might be surprised to know that you love or any genres that you sort of avoid?

B (58:09)

I love. This is like, music for me. It's like. I'm like, I love all music, but I'm not really that well versed in heavy metal.

A (58:20)

Yeah, that's how I feel. I'm like, I love music, except for, I don't know, seven different kinds of music.

B (58:27)

And for genres, again, I'm a very. I'm like, right now, I'm, like, thinking about a spy novel that I want to write. Like, I love all genres, but the one genre that I have some trouble with is fantasy. That's my favorite, but I'm sure there are exceptions. Like, I love, like, A Wrinkle in Time is one of those books that I read as a young person that just, like, blew my mind. There are aspects of Bridget Terabithia that are a little bit fantasy, like, you know what I mean? So. And I love Game of Thrones, so, you know.

A (58:59)

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. I don't. I don't particularly care for fantasy either. I. I think speculative is sort of, like, speculative with a twist of science fiction. I can go. But fantasy is a struggle for me. I just. I'm such a nonfiction lover that it's sort of hard for me to go there mentally. Like, it's easier for me to be like, this is something that could happen, as opposed to, like, dragons. I'm just like, okay, It's a lot of suspending my discord.

B (59:26)

Yeah, I just like. I like there to be certain, like, limits to ground. What?

A (59:30)

I need an anchor.

B (59:32)

I need an anchor.

A (59:33)

Yeah, totally.

B (59:34)

But like, my first. My first novel, the Old Drift, has historical fiction, magical realism, or, you know, fairy tale, social realism, science fiction, and then a little bit of spy fiction at the end. And my second novel is really interested in, like, noir, but also, like, gothic. Like, I'm riffing a lot on Edgar Allan Poe and Hitchcock, so I'm like, yeah, I mean, like, my. My goal in life is to be as open to different genres as Morrison was. Right. She incorporated genres from all over the place in her work, too.

A (60:06)

Yeah. How do you like to read? What is your ideal reading setup? Where are you? How many hours a day? Snacks and beverages, temperature, music, you know, tell us, what's the dream reading stitch for you?

B (60:19)

So no music because it's too distracting. I like quiet space. I really need to be warm. That can involve, as I have right now, an electric blanket on my feet or my lap or ideally sunlight. I just, I love being, I love reading in the sun. And so that can be outdoors. If I'm in a, you know, if I'm in a sunny place, but it can be indoors. I'm usually sitting down and. But sometimes I'm lying down. I won't lie. And I mean snacks and beverages. Oh, yeah. I love, I like, just the other day, you know, girl dinner, as we call it. I've just had like tortilla chips and salsa next to me while I was reading Jane Eyre. Yeah. I love having snacks and like bubbly water. I don't particularly like tea or coffee because that's just too many bathroom breaks to interrupt the reading.

A (61:22)

Okay.

B (61:23)

But also in terms of.

A (61:25)

That's a controversial take right there. Okay.

B (61:27)

People love the like, cozy thing. And I'm like, if I'm drinking tea, I am like literally jumping up after 10.

A (61:32)

That's fair.

B (61:33)

I'm just like, I love it.

A (61:34)

I follow the logic. It's just like you might be the first person ever to say that on the show.

B (61:38)

Yeah. And I really like. And you, you know, in terms of the amount of time, like three to five hours are like perfect time. Like, and it really sort of depends on the book. Right. So it's like if it's a book that's like hard and you know, or if it's a short story or a short story collection, like three hours. But if it's like longer than five hours and I. It's something that is. And this is maybe because I don't do caffeine, but I've realized that recently, I mean, I shouldn't say recently, this started when I moved to California because I remember distinctly this happening. I often read like 10 pages and then I need a nap and I take a little 15 minute nap and then. And then I never fall asleep again. So it's not like reading makes me bored or it's just like there's. I think it's because of what I was telling you at the beginning, which is that I used to read to fall asleep.

A (62:29)

Yes.

B (62:30)

And so it's like this, like, it's

A (62:32)

like Pavlov's dog or whatever.

B (62:36)

But it's actually really, you know, sometimes I've had really incredibly vivid dreams that are about the book. And so those, those little naps have become these kind of like delicious literary naps for me. I've never talked about this before, so it's it's exciting that you asked this question.

A (62:53)

Okay, this is our little speed round, and then we're pretty much out of time. We're out of time. But I like you, so we're gonna keep going as long as you'll let me. What is the last book you purchased?

B (63:06)

Jarvis Givens. I'll make me a world.

A (63:12)

Okay.

B (63:12)

It's a friend of mine.

A (63:14)

Amazing. What's the last book that made you laugh?

B (63:17)

How should a person be?

A (63:19)

What's the last book that made you cry?

B (63:21)

The Transit of Venus.

A (63:23)

What's the last book that made you angry?

B (63:25)

I read an art. It's an article. No. You want a book?

A (63:28)

Go ahead.

B (63:29)

I read an article about. About AI recently, and it. It made me really angry because I was like, I know the writer of this article is smarter than this, but they completely and totally drank the Kool Aid that AI Is thinking and feeling and speaking. And I was like, this is so irresponsible to write this essay when I know that you know better. So I'll say that.

A (63:56)

Okay. Is there any book that you feel proud to have read?

B (64:03)

Many. The long ones especially.

A (64:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (64:07)

I'm very proud to have, I'll just say, reread James Joyce's Ulysses. That's like a real. It's a real doozy of a difficult book.

A (64:19)

Are there any books and people take issue with the word I'm going to use, so sort of go with the spirit of the question. Are there any books that you feel embarrassed that you've never read?

B (64:30)

Oh, there's so many. This is, like, my favorite, like, thing to ask, you know, other people in the books world at parties.

A (64:38)

Yeah.

B (64:39)

Like, what's your shame book? You know? Yeah. I'm slowly remedying my shame books by reading them every summer. So I actually have to think now, but I hadn't read Middlemarch by George Eliot. I hadn't read A Portrait of a Lady by Henry James, so I read those. Oh, I am ashamed that I have not read all of Proust's. I have not any.

A (65:00)

None of the books you've listed have I read. I mean. But you're, like, a serious person.

B (65:06)

Well, it's. I. I would just say I'm very serious about literature.

A (65:11)

You're, like a serious, like, literary figure.

B (65:14)

Well, this is. This is my. This is like my. It's a. It's my job. You know what I mean?

A (65:19)

Well, it's also my job, but I'm an unserious literary person, and so I sort of got to craft this, like, unserious person. So I don't have to read Proust or whatever?

B (65:27)

No, no.

A (65:28)

Proust can't even say it.

B (65:31)

Well, part of the reason it's embarrassing is because the parts that I have read of Proust have been so influential. And so I'm like, I really ought to have subjected myself to, you know, the. The. The months it would take to read all of. Of In Search of Lost Time, because I just know it's going to be revelatory the way that reading all of Morrison has been revelatory.

A (65:51)

Right, right, right, right. Okay, I know that you are a professor, so this. So you kind of have to go with me here, but if you were teaching a high school class, what is the book you would assign in school?

B (66:05)

Just one.

A (66:06)

Yeah, just one.

B (66:10)

And this is gonna be controversial. I mean, it gets assigned all the time, but I would Huck Finn.

A (66:15)

Oh, okay.

B (66:17)

A lot of people are like, oh, we shouldn't teach that book because it has the N word in it and da, da, da. But I'm like, I think it is a remarkable book, and I think it's a book that students really respond to, and it really actually makes them think about things that they haven't thought about before. I taught it in a college level course at Berkeley when I was teaching there. And I mean, students were. Their minds were blown. You assume it's this little adventure story or what have you, but it's like, this is moral philosophy.

A (66:49)

Actually, I've never read that. I'm not that embarrassed about it.

B (66:53)

No, you don't need to be embarrassed.

A (66:54)

But I'm not ready.

B (66:55)

Yeah, yeah. No, there's no reason to be embarrassed about not reading any book as far as I'm concerned.

A (66:59)

Yeah. That's why people always bristle when I ask that question. They're like, I'm not embarrassed about not having read. And I'm like, okay, you get the vibe. I'm just saying, like, what's the book that everybody. He's read that you haven't read?

B (67:08)

Well, it's like. It's like, what's the book that's like, on your to do list? Yeah, you know what I mean that, like, you really know you ought to have read.

A (67:15)

Mine is miles long. You've mentioned many of them. Moby Dick. I've never read, and I don't feel the need to read that. I'm gonna be honest.

B (67:22)

I really. You're missing out.

A (67:26)

You think? Yes, boring.

B (67:31)

But it's boring in stretches. You see, it's also very funny.

A (67:35)

I need a little. I need a Little pacing. I need a little movement. I can do long, but I need things to happen. And I feel like Moby Dick just feels like I'm setting myself up to go into a year long reading slump upon finishing it. You know, like Anna Karenina loved things happen. Amazing.

B (67:57)

Yes. Really fun.

A (68:00)

But I don't think Moby Dick is that right. Moby Dick is not giving me.

B (68:05)

Well, you, you mentioned that you're very interested in theater.

A (68:09)

I am.

B (68:09)

And it is very Shakespearean, actually.

A (68:11)

Okay, is it like Lear? Because that's not my favorite. Is it like Hamlet? Also one I hate.

B (68:20)

Oh, okay, then maybe I'm.

A (68:22)

I'm one of the loudest. I'm one of the loudest Hamlet haters on record. Everyone loves Hamlet but me, I think,

B (68:28)

I think it's, you know, but there are parts of it that are actually formatted as a play. And so there's that part of it. There's also like, it's also like, it's very funny.

A (68:39)

You know that, and people hate it. I just, I think I gotta get through the rest of my shame list. And then the very last one, on my deathbed, I'll just be like, well, let me check out.

B (68:52)

Let me recommend to you a shorter Melville, which is like the very, very short Melville, which is Bartleby the Scrivener. It's basically a short story. It's like a novella length short story. We love a short book. It is also extremely funny. And. But it's also like, it has that quality of like tragedy and farce that is very Shakespearean. Just when you read it. Let's just like, keep a, like, keep in mind that the, the person telling the story is unreliable, is an unreliable narrator. But I really think like, like dip your toe in and see if you like Bartleby. And then.

A (69:28)

I love the name. I love Bartleby. What a great name. Okay, last one for you and then we're really out of here. I stole this from the New York Times. If you could require the President of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

B (69:41)

The current president?

A (69:42)

Yes.

B (69:43)

Oh, he can't read.

A (69:44)

Okay, well, we gotta go with it. Maybe he can listen to the audiobook. I don't know that man.

B (69:50)

That man does not read. That man has no literary sensibility whatsoever. But I know he likes musical theater, so maybe he could watch.

A (70:05)

Okay.

B (70:05)

A musical.

A (70:06)

Okay.

B (70:07)

And maybe the musical I would recommend that he watch is. Oh, Angels in America.

A (70:15)

That's a play.

B (70:17)

Oh, it's not a musical. Okay, okay.

A (70:20)

But you know, his best Friend is in it.

B (70:23)

Roy Cohn. Well, exactly. Do you think? But maybe. Maybe that's the book he should read.

A (70:28)

I feel like he's probably seen that play would be my already. Well, because it was so huge when it came out in New York.

B (70:36)

It's true.

A (70:36)

And then they did a movie with it with Al Pacino and Meryl Streep. But no, it's a great recommendation, honestly.

B (70:41)

The. The other one that maybe it's Susan

A (70:46)

Lori Parks, Top Dog, Underdog.

B (70:49)

That's my favorite of hers.

A (70:50)

So good.

B (70:51)

It's a great.

A (70:52)

It's a great play, but I don't know.

B (70:54)

I don't know. The thing about it is, like, you know, literature, some tries to change minds, but it doesn't usually succeed. And so if the aim is to try to get Trump to be a good person or whatever, like, that's not happening.

A (71:08)

Well, the aim of the question. I mean, the question predates Trump. Like I said, I stole it from the New York Times. So, like, back when I, you know, been subscribed there for a long time, and it used to be, like, for Obama, and the recommendations were always so great. And then we went to the Trump years, and then I think they stopped doing it. But this podcast spans Trump 1, Biden, and then Trump 2. So seeing, like, the range of answers has been very fun. I think you've come up with good answers. I do think both the Susan Lori Parks and Angels in America are actually kind of brilliant answers to that question.

B (71:43)

I mean, I think. I think. I think I want to stick with the. With Angels in America because I. I think, you know, this is. The thing is, like, you can't actually force people to reconsider their racist assumptions through literature. I know that sounds crazy. I agree with you. I feel like a lot of people think that's the way to do it, but I don't believe that. But I think Angels in America, because it is about his friend and because he loves theater and because it is actually a really interesting portrait of queer life. I think that.

A (72:20)

And it's his era, it's his. That it's. It's set in his 1980s New York. Right.

B (72:26)

Like, I don't think it would necessarily. Again, I don't think it would necessarily change his mind, but I think this is a person who willfully tries to forget things.

A (72:34)

Sure.

B (72:34)

And I'm like, let's remind.

A (72:36)

Just a reminder. Yeah, Just a casual reminder. I love it so much.

B (72:40)

Yeah.

A (72:40)

Okay, everybody, I told you, Namwali's great. I told you I already knew. You Were going to be great because I read the book and it's so smart. The book is called On Morrison. As you're listening to this, it is out now in the world. It is fantastic. Slow down. Read it slow. Don't do the thing that readers do where they try to read a book in a day. You're gonna hate it if you do it that way. It is not to be treated like a speed read, people. It is to be treated like a long. Read it over the course of the year. Read an essay a month. Like, take your time. If you've not read the novels yet, you can wait. Read them and then go back.

B (73:21)

Yeah, exactly.

A (73:22)

Yes. You can wait.

B (73:24)

Think of it as a companion to the reading.

A (73:26)

Yes. Yes. This is. This is a. This is like a ro. A Rolex of a book. It's gonna last you generations. Right? It's not. This is not a tomorrow only book. Okay. But all of that being said, we get more Namwali. She will be back on March 25th for our book club discussion of paradise by of course, the Toni Morrison. Nali, this was amazing. Thank you so much for your time and sharing all of this with us.

B (73:50)

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for your questions. It was just a lovely afternoon to spend with you.

A (73:55)

Yay. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Nwali Serpel for joining the show. And I'd also also like to say a huge thank you to Electra Culvis, Michael Takins, Carrie Neal, and Peter Dyer for your assistance in making this episode possible. Our book club pick for March is Paradise by Toni Morrison and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 25 with Namwali Serpell. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you are subscribed to the Stacks wherever you are listening to your podcasts right now. If you listen through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, go ahead and leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks pod, on Instagram, Threads and YouTube and check out our website at the Stacks Podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duanes with production assistance from Sahara Clement and additional support provided by Sheree Martin Marquez. Our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me Tracy Thomas. Foreign. Hey everybody, it's me, Tracy, and I've got some exciting news for you. This year the stacks is turning 8 years old and we are celebrating with our very first Meetup day on Saturday, April 4. We are inviting you all to meet up in cities across the country and around the world to hang out, play games and build community around our shared love of all things books, reading and, of course, snacks. Head to the stacks podcast.com meetup for more information. Over there, you're going to find a list of all the cities we have meetups scheduled for. You'll be able to RSVP and if you don't see a meetup near you, there's also information on how you can host one again. The website is the stacks podcast.com meetup and meetup day is April 4th. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.