Unabridged: Poptimism in the Age of Beyoncé with Sam Sanders

Summary

The Stacks - Unabridged Episode: Poptimism in the Age of Beyoncé with Sam Sanders

Release Date: May 16, 2025

In this exclusive bonus episode of The Stacks podcast, host Traci Thomas engages in a lively and candid conversation with Sam Sanders, a seasoned podcaster known for co-hosting the Vibe Check podcast and hosting his own show. The duo delves into their recent experience attending the Cowboy Carter World Tour concert, exploring their thoughts on stadium tours, and navigating the complexities of literary awards, specifically the Pulitzer Prize controversy surrounding Percival Everett's James. This episode is a blend of humor, insightful commentary, and fervent discussions that encapsulate the dynamic spirit of both hosts.

---

1. Introduction to the Episode and Guests

The episode kicks off with Traci introducing Sam Sanders without a formal introduction, highlighting their longstanding friendship and frequent collaborations. Traci briefly touches upon Sam's roles, including his involvement with Vibe Check, his own podcast, and his recent appointment as a judge for the Tribeca Audio Awards.

Traci Thomas [00:00]: "This is Sam and Tracy at our most chaotic best."

Sam humorously downplays his new judging role, emphasizing the additional workload it entails.

Sam Sanders [02:04]: "It's just more work... they want to judge? Which is great."

---

2. Navigating Podcast Judging and Responsibilities

Traci and Sam discuss the responsibilities that come with being a podcast judge for Tribeca. Sam reveals the minimal nature of the task, humorously comparing it to Traci's experience with the Pulitzer Prize, where she faced the daunting task of evaluating 144 books.

Sam Sanders [03:07]: "I am plotting a little quick Vegas trip with a friend for later this month. That will be our homework for the drive."

Traci contrasts this with the intense scrutiny and extensive reading required for the Pulitzer committee, highlighting the challenges judges face in maintaining objectivity and dedication.

---

3. The Pulitzer Prize Controversy: Percival Everett's James

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the recent Pulitzer Prize drama involving Percival Everett's novel James. Traci recounts the controversy where the Pulitzer board added a fourth nominee, ultimately awarding the prize to James despite initial reservations from the committee head, Merv Emre.

Traci Thomas [06:47]: "Merv was like, I cannot handle the fact that we failed. So I'm going to talk shit about the board / Percival."

Sam and Traci critique the decision-making process, questioning the legitimacy and motivations behind adding a male author to a shortlist initially comprised entirely of female authors.

Sam Sanders [09:03]: "Also the book is really good. And he did something remarkable."

Traci defends James, emphasizing Percival Everett's illustrious career and the book's commercial success, which she believes deserved the Pulitzer recognition.

Traci Thomas [13:24]: "Percival Everett's writing is good enough for the Oscars, I think it's also good enough for the Pulitzers."

The duo also touches upon the lack of diversity in Pulitzer winners over the past two decades, noting that James is one of the few black authors to receive such an honor recently.

---

4. Reflections on Literary Awards and Diversity

Traci and Sam delve deeper into the implications of the Pulitzer controversy, discussing the broader issues of diversity and representation in literary awards. Traci points out the historical gender imbalance among Pulitzer winners and criticizes the committee's handling of the James nomination.

Traci Thomas [08:00]: "The three books that were originally finalists were all by women. And so then people tried to be like, they brought a man in, blah, blah, blah."

Sam adds his perspective on the situation, advocating for the recognition of James based on its merit rather than succumbing to identity politics.

Sam Sanders [09:36]: "You should just be encouraging the reading of the books and the books that were written, and they're all good and hooray, please buy some fucking books."

---

5. The Impact of James and Percival Everett’s Legacy

Celebrating Percival Everett's accomplishments, Traci highlights his extensive literary career and the significance of James being adapted into an Oscar-winning screenplay.

Sam Sanders [12:46]: "Percival Everett's writing is good enough for the Oscars, I think it's also good enough for the Pulitzers."

Traci underscores Everett's influence in literature, dispelling misconceptions about his work being merely commercial and affirming his status as a pioneering writer.

Traci Thomas [14:14]: "He's one of our literary greats... he's a career writer."

---

6. Concert Experience: Cowboy Carter World Tour

Shifting gears, Traci and Sam recount their experiences attending the Cowboy Carter World Tour concert. They discuss the excitement of seeing Beyoncé perform, the energy of the stadium setting, and share anecdotes from the event.

Traci Thomas [14:28]: "Sam and I saw Cowboy Carter Night 2 here in Los Angeles the night she brought out..."

Sam humorously mentions the chaotic nature of organizing a last-minute podcast episode due to the event's impact.

Sam Sanders [11:18]: "We saw her at her talk at LA Times Festival of Books. She was like, when are we going out for drinks again?"

The conversation reflects their enthusiasm for live performances and the cultural significance of Beyoncé's influence in music and beyond.

---

7. Closing Remarks and Community Engagement

As the episode nears its conclusion, Traci encourages listeners to subscribe to the podcast's Patreon or Substack for full access to the bonus content. She highlights the benefits of joining the community, including access to exclusive episodes, a virtual book club, and other perks.

Traci Thomas [15:00]: "If you were liking what you were hearing, you can listen to the entire episode by going to either patreon.com the stacks and joining the Stacks Pack..."

Sam and Traci end on a light-hearted note, planning future interactions and reinforcing their commitment to fostering a vibrant literary and cultural community.

---

Notable Quotes

• Traci Thomas [04:20]: "So in the fiction category, I believe the head of the committee said they read over 600 books."
• Sam Sanders [05:23]: "They whittled it down. And actually..."
• Traci Thomas [09:03]: "Also the book is really good. And he did something remarkable."
• Traci Thomas [13:24]: "Percival Everett's writing is good enough for the Oscars, I think it's also good enough for the Pulitzers."

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Stacks - Unabridged offers an engaging blend of music, literature, and candid discussions on industry practices. Traci and Sam provide listeners with an in-depth look at the dynamics of literary awards, the importance of meritocracy in recognizing outstanding work, and the vibrant energy of live music events. Whether you're a regular listener or new to the podcast, this episode delivers valuable insights and entertaining banter that underscore the profound impact of books and music on our cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hey everybody, it's Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks, and I am here with another episode of the Stacks, Unabridged, our bonus episode, exclusive to Patreon and Substack subscribers. Today I'm going to be talking about the Cowboy Carter World Tour with friend of the podcast and podcaster extraordinaire, Sam Sanders. We get into what we loved and didn't love so much, about the concert and our thoughts about stadium tours in general. We also talk about Blue Ivy Carter, the Tribeca Film Festival, and Gwyneth Paltrow. This is Sam and Tracy at our most chaotic best. If you're listening to this episode and it cuts off at about 15 minutes, that means you're not a paid subscriber to Patreon or Substack. And you should remedy that by going to patreon.com thestacks or tracy thomas.substack.com to subscribe and support the work of the show. By joining Patreon or Substack, you make it possible for me to make the Stacks free to all every single week. Also, you get fun perks like bonus episodes, my forthcoming non fiction reading guide, and so much more. So if you like the show, if you want more of it, head to patreon.com the stacks or Tracy Thomas, substack.com let's get to the Cowboy Carter World Tour with Sam Sanders. Okay, guys, it's bonus episode with everyone's favorite person, Sam Sanders. Sam, welcome back. I don't give you an intro. I don't like. It's like, at what point do I stop giving people who come on the show regularly and that everyone who listens to my podcast listens to probably twice a week as I do. But I guess if you don't know Sam, if you're new here, he is a co host of the Vibe Check podcast. He is also the host of the Sam Sanders show by Sam Sanders, produced and created by Sam Sanders of Sam Sanders fame. Also, shout out to kcrw. And now wait, now you're a judge for the Tribeca Audio Award. Tell me about this.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, it's funny. Everyone's like, oh my God, congrats. And I'm like, it's just more work. So it is more work, you know. Tribeca started out as just the film festival, but they added an audio portion I don't know how many years ago. But recently, and in fact last year, Saeed, Zach and I did a vibe check taping at Tribeca Audio, we interviewed Lena Waithe producer extraordinaire, wonderful human. But now that they know I'm down to do stuff with Tribeca. They're like, you want to judge? Which is great. We will.

[Tracy Thomas]

So you're just judging podcasts?

[Sam Sanders]

We're judging podcasts.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is it all three of you?

[Sam Sanders]

No, it's me. And then other folks from throughout the industry got it. I don't know who the other ones are, but I do know when they asked me to do it and I said yes, they sent me this little form letter that was like, thank you from Robert De Niro. And it's like, all right, that's cool, but that's your payment, girl. That's it. That's it.

[Tracy Thomas]

How many podcasts they think you're going to have to listen to? Like, how many episodes of a show? Like, do you have to consider? Do you know any of that?

[Sam Sanders]

Let me actually just tell you. I can pull up the email because it's an email, because my deadline to listen is very soon.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, shit.

[Sam Sanders]

I mean, listen. I can't say anything. You judge book competitions. That is.

[Tracy Thomas]

I did it one time and probably never again.

[Sam Sanders]

You told me about it when it happened. How many books did you have to read?

[Tracy Thomas]

We considered 144 books.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, no, see, this is me listening to five podcast episodes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, that's it.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I thought. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. So they already probably whittled it down.

[Sam Sanders]

They whittled it down. And actually.

[Tracy Thomas]

So you're just picking?

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, I am plotting a little quick Vegas trip with a friend for later this month. That will be our homework for the drive.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, perfect. Done. Okay. But do you know what happened with the Pulitzer Prize this year for fiction?

[Sam Sanders]

I know they were awarded. Well, Percival won. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Percival won. But there was drama, and we don't want you to be drama when you're a judge.

[Sam Sanders]

Wait, what was the drama? Tell me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so the drama. Yeah. You're going to be. Okay, so the way that the Pulitzer works, for some of you listening, this is old news. But some of you might not know this. So the way the Pulitzer works is that it's run by Columbia and there's a Pulitzer board, and these people are, like, I think, appointed for a long time.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And they vote on the finalists. Sort of like what you're going to do. Every category gets three finalists, and then they vote on those three. Okay, so. But they have a committee who goes before and goes through.

[Sam Sanders]

Whittles it down.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, exactly. So in the fiction category, I believe the head of the committee said they read over 600 books.

[Sam Sanders]

Do you believe that when you hear.

[Tracy Thomas]

That I do, because I don't believe they finished 600. I believe they start and they go 20 pages and they're like, you know what? I'm done.

[Sam Sanders]

So the lesson here is make that first chapter good, dammit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, that's right. So they submitted their three finalists. Okay, wait, let me backtrack.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

If the Pulitzer board does not like the three finalists or does not think any of them are winners, they have three options. They can award no prize, which they did, I believe, in 2012.

[Sam Sanders]

That's mean.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. They could just literally be like, nobody's good enough for us. They can award two prizes. Like if they can't agree on a winner, they can award two prizes, which they did a few years back for Demon, Copperhead and Trust.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

They can say to the, to the committee, we don't love any of these. Can you give us one more? Or by 3/4 majority, they can pick. They can add a book and pick it as a winner. This year there were four nominees in the category.

[Sam Sanders]

So they added one in post. Which one?

[Tracy Thomas]

They added one in post or the group. They asked the group to submit a fourth book. But either way, we know that the book that was submitted was James, because if James had been in the original, it would have just won. After this, the head of the whittling down committee, Merv Emre, she posted on her Instagram, never do that. No, man, this is what I'm saying. Within. Within an hour, messy, messy. And she was like, I'm very troubled by the state of books. We are too worried about what readers.

[Sam Sanders]

Are like about they dissing Percival in this situation.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is what I'm saying. I don't have the exact quote. I don't have the exact quote. But it was something along the lines of when the state of books is like, it's not doing well and with the cuts of funding, it's only going to get sicker. So when you read a book that really excites you, like, then you know it's really special. Congratulations to our finalists. And then it was the three books that didn't win. And the board selected winner.

[Sam Sanders]

Not the winner.

[Tracy Thomas]

The board selected winner.

[Sam Sanders]

She's saying, I don't think this thing should have won and I need to see her face.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then an hour later, she edited it just to say. And the winner. Because they said I was. They snatched it up and said, you better fucking not. I was with my girlfriend Sarah. We were in Lake Tahoe having our little reading retreat. And Sarah screenshotted it because she was like, holy. And then when we went, there was an article that came out like a few hours later on lid hub and they had not the original post. And I was like, oh my God, Sarah, you have the news. So anyways, they basically, the judge or the committee was like, we don't think James is good. And the board was like, babes, get your head out of your ass. Stop being bitches. And it's the best book of the year and everybody knows it. And then this woman Merv was like, I cannot. I don't even know I'm saying her name right, but she was like, I cannot handle the fact that we failed. So I'm going to talk shit about the board slash Percival. And they basically like made this award about them. So anyways, don't do that, Sam. Don't listen. Yeah, don't make, don't be like, can we get a sixth one?

[Sam Sanders]

No, it's funny.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then, and then, oh wait, this is the other part of it. So the three books that were originally finalists were all by women. And so then people tried to be like, they brought a man in, blah, blah, blah. But then I went back because I was like, I don't like this narrative. I went back in the last 20 years. So, okay, obviously the Pulitzer is not like, yay, we celebrate diversity. So I'm not going to like defend the Pulitzer for the last 200 years. Yeah, but in the last 20 years there have been 20 winners. But one year there wasn't an award and one year there were two. But there's 20 winners. Eight of those winners have been women, 12 have been men. One winner who won two times was a black man.

[Sam Sanders]

Was it Colson?

[Tracy Thomas]

Colson Whitehead?

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

There have been no other black winners in that entire 20 year period. So I'm sort of like, I get it, we want women to win. But also, let's not pretend like this has been a fucking black people. Like that Percival is somehow. Yeah, it's not giving it to Jonathan Franzen.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. Also the book is really good. And he did something remarkable.

[Tracy Thomas]

The book is so good.

[Sam Sanders]

He did something remarkable.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the moment everybody read it, we all said, this should win the Pulitzer. So it's not as if they like, it's clearly that the committee went rogue here and not the board, because I think sometimes the board maybe goes rogue. But I think everybody sort of agreed this was going to be the winner. And then it became this whole thing of like, oh, they had to bring a man. And I'm like, well, okay, a black man. Also, we don't have to do the identity politics thing here. This is just the best book of the year.

[Sam Sanders]

Also, they not. They don't need this drama when people are reading less than ever anyway.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what I'm saying.

[Sam Sanders]

You should just be encouraging the reading of the books and the books that were written, and they're all good and hooray, please buy some fucking books.

[Tracy Thomas]

And also, if you're on the committee and they do this to you, you just take the L, you wait a year, and then you're like. Did I ever tell you guys about when I was a judge on the. Like to do it within the hour?

[Sam Sanders]

That's messy. I've.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's messy.

[Sam Sanders]

I've sat on smaller awards giving bodies before. And I just assume the cardinal rule was, like, you never talk about the finalist ever.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

You just don't. Because so to do so would be tacky. I'm sorry. It's tacky.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's tacky. And who are the other finalists? So the other finalists were Rita Bullwinkle, who wrote Headshot. She's a debut. I can always get up. It's either 1961. Mice by Stacy Levine, I think. Is that her name? And then Gail Jones, who's a black woman who's never won, who is a literary great. The unicorn woman.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. Well, you know, the only woman I would have given it to over Percival and I wouldn't is my girl with the all fours, Miranda July.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say his wife, Danzi said.

[Sam Sanders]

But also, they. They have one in their home now.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, they're not giving that award to Miranda July. Are you out of.

[Sam Sanders]

She's too. She is not of the authorial prestige that these finalists are, but of the books that rocked my socks the most, she was up there.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, that book has been so controversial in the stacks community.

[Sam Sanders]

I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Stacks people hate it. I think in the world, half people love it, half people hate it. I have recused myself from this book. I've just said, you know, I'm not gonna read it. Don't want to have an opinion because I know I'll have a strong one. And I don't want to read it. Don't care.

[Sam Sanders]

Listen, it doesn't make me want to be closer to Miranda July as a person, but I'm saying as a read. I was like, wow. I' so that said, speaking of Dansie, you know, we saw her at her talk at LA Times Festival of Books. She was like, when are we going out for drinks again? So, Tracee, when are we going out.

[Tracy Thomas]

For Drinks again with Danzy?

[Sam Sanders]

Yes, anything. Let's make it happen.

[Tracy Thomas]

Let's do it. Okay, done.

[Sam Sanders]

Also, what has Danzy said about the mess? Because Danzy don't mind mess. And she'll get in it too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I don't know. I not heard from her. She's not on social media. He's on social media.

[Sam Sanders]

I mean, if I start a new.

[Tracy Thomas]

Group text, I know if I'm her. If I'm her, I. I can't wait to run into Merv.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, well, you know, Merv ain't gonna show her face for a few months in the streets.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know, events for her.

[Sam Sanders]

Oh, is she. Is she proud of it?

[Tracy Thomas]

She's a literary critic, you know, she's very high minded. She's got a podcast called the Critic and her Publics or something like that. I don't know.

[Sam Sanders]

I never listened.

[Tracy Thomas]

I listened once, okay. And then I tried to listen the second time and it was just a little too hoity toity for me. You know, I like to keep my criticism low level. Like, that was bad. That's my criticism. I'm not giving you, you know, existential dread.

[Sam Sanders]

Also, just to loop back on Percival 1. I'm such a fan. I actually was able to interview him for the BBC when he was making the rounds for James A Brilliant Mind. Lest we forget, he also was the. He also was in the midst of awards season for a different kind of award when the adaptation of his book won an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for our friend Cord Jefferson.

[Tracy Thomas]

And okay, yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

So all I can say is if Percival Everett's writing is good enough for the Oscars, I think it's also good enough for the Pulitzers.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, he was already a Pulitzer finalist. It's not like that's my thing. I'm just like. It's not like he just wrote one novel and people liked it. This is like his 30th book in 40 years. He's one of our literary.

[Sam Sanders]

He's one of our guys. He's one of our guys.

[Tracy Thomas]

And this book is his most commercial. But he has been pushing boundaries in literature since the 1980s. Like, what are we talking about here? This idea that he's like some commercial darling that he is, you know, Miranda July or somebody that, like, people love and just read her books no matter what, even though I know she's like avant garde in her film work. He's not. He's a career writer. He published with the small press his entire career until James. So this idea that, like, he is some that he's something that he's not really pisses like, it really gets under my skin.

[Sam Sanders]

Also read Erasure, the book on which.

[Tracy Thomas]

American we did it for book club.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay, good. So your folks have read it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, Zach.

[Sam Sanders]

I'm reading Zach. And I remember I couldn't listen to that one yet because I was still halfway through the book. So now I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, you got to go back and listen.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, listen up, everybody. Sam and I saw Cowboy Carter Night 2 here in Los Angeles the night she brought out.

[Sam Sanders]

Were we the same night Ms. Tina came out?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Don't you remember texting me and then me texting you and saying, we've got to do an emergency podcast when we were literally 3/4 through the episode and we can't read the text anytime? All right, that is the end of this bonus teaser. If you were liking what you were hearing, you can listen to the entire episode by going to either patreon.com the stacks and joining the Stacks Pack, getting access to the Discord, being able to participate in our virtual book club, and or you can go to tracythomas.substack.com and subscribe to Unstacked, where you're going to get my writing about books, pop culture, you're going to get other exclusive author interviews, and, of course, these bonus episodes. So go to one of those two places, join us, get to hear the rest of this episode, and support the work that I do by being a part of these wonderful communities. Thank you so much, and I'll see you in the stacks.