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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Hey, everybody, it's Tracy. Welcome to another episode of the Stacks Unabridged, our bonus episode, exclusive for Patreon and Substack subscribers today, because we can. Because I love you, and because I love him even more, I am joined today by friend of the podcast, Kiesa Lehman. KSA has a brand new children's book. It's called City Summer, Country Summer. He and I talk about that today. But if you know anything about KSAN I, we talk about a lot, a lot, a lot more, from author's feelings to what the hell do we do to remain human in this political moment and so much more. If you're listening to this episode and it cuts off about 15 minutes in, that means you're not a paid subscriber of Patreon or Substack, and you need to join those communities to hear the whole thing. If you go to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack, for $5 a month, you get access to bonus episodes to be part of our Discord community, you get our mega reading challenge, monthly book club meetups, and more. And if you go to Tracy thomas.substack.com for $5 a month, you get all of my hot takes about books and pop culture. You get those bonus episodes. And either way, you support. You get to know that you make it possible for me to make this podcast every single week. So go to patreon.com the stacks and/or Tracy thomas.substack.com to join up and hear this entire episode. Okay, let's dive into my conversation with the greatest Kiesa Layman. Okay, everybody, your favorite person's here. Everybody. Every time I ask you who should I have on the show, at least 17 of you say you should have Kiesa back. So guess what? Get off my back. KSA is back in the sax. Welcome back, friend.
- [02:07]
Kiesa Lehman
What up, Tracy? I feel like, you know, back again. You know, I feel like every time I hear. Hear you interview anybody else, I always wish I was in the room with y'all. So thank. Thank the 17 people that want to hear me again, but it's new. I feel like, you know, we. We different than we were the last time we spoke.
- [02:25]
Tracy Thomas
I think the last time we talked on the podcast would have been like, two years. Well, the last time people heard us talk was the tour. Yeah, but I think it was even three years ago since you were on the podcast.
- [02:37]
Kiesa Lehman
Yeah, it's been a while.
- [02:39]
Tracy Thomas
This year, 2025 marks five years from your first episode.
- [02:43]
Kiesa Lehman
Oh, man. And that. And I feel like a Lot. I mean. I mean, my life changed a lot. Your life definitely seemed, like, professionally changed a lot.
- [02:50]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been a lot. I mean, that was. Like we recorded. I want to say. I want to say the episode came out in July 2020, so we recorded on, like, June 2020.
- [03:00]
Kiesa Lehman
Y.
- [03:00]
Tracy Thomas
It's a long time. Like, that was a whole different.
- [03:03]
Kiesa Lehman
And think about power politically. I mean, politically where we were at that point, you know? And, you know what's wild is I remember we took the. Yeah, I shouldn't even get into it. See, the thing about you is I love you so much. I start wanting to just talk like, it's just me and you. But, yeah, I was. I was just starting to partake in gummies around that time. I just. I'll just say that. And when I see that picture of myself holding my books, I'm like, damn, you can see it. But. But also now everybody in the world is trying to get on the stacks. Like, that's what's. That's what's also so interesting. Every time I talk to authors, they're like, hey, man, you think you give me on that stacks, bro? You think you can give me. You think? And I was like, man, you gotta. You gotta. You gotta holl at Tracy, you know?
- [03:37]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my gosh. Well, it's because of you. I mean, I feel like after you came on the show, people were like, oh, maybe I want to go on the show.
- [03:45]
Kiesa Lehman
I think, because we did something good together, you know what I'm saying? Like, if I would have been up on that motherfucker, be like, you know, if you would have been, like, asking whack ass questions, nobody would have cared. But, you know, that's true. We connected.
- [03:56]
Tracy Thomas
I still feel like five years later, and this is no shade to other guests, that our conversation about Breathe by Imani Perry was the first time I felt like I really nailed what the book club episode should be like. I had been working towards what we pulled together. I haven't gone back and listened, so I don't know, maybe it sucks, but I remember in the moment when we were recording it, and then when I listened back to the edit being like, this is what I had hoped to make one day.
- [04:29]
Kiesa Lehman
And, you know, after it, like, I'm still like a goofy kind of like, eighth grader who, like, when I vibe with people, I'm always. I'm always like, oh, that's my cousin. And like, for me, that's when you became like, my cousin. You know what I'm saying? And I Was just like, man, I hope she want to be my cousin, because that's my cousin.
- [04:45]
Tracy Thomas
I do. I so badly. So we cousins? Yeah. I mean, we are. I feel like in the five years since then, we've officially become cousins for sure. But I can't say it good like you because I don't have a Southern accent at all. So I just. I just like my cousin. This is my cousin. Just, like, doesn't sound right.
- [05:02]
Kiesa Lehman
Sound good enough to me.
- [05:04]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, before we talk about other stuff, because I do. For people listening, here's our plan. We'll see if we stick to it, because we never have stuck to a plan in our lives, is we're going to talk about the new book City Summer, Country Summer. And then I want to talk about how the hell are we remaining human in the world.
- [05:22]
Kiesa Lehman
Right. That's great.
- [05:24]
Tracy Thomas
As people who make things and people who have to care about things.
- [05:29]
Kiesa Lehman
Yeah.
- [05:29]
Tracy Thomas
And want to be plugged in. So we'll get there. Okay, let's start with the obvious question. Kia, say, Lehman, prolific adult writer. You wrote a kid's book. A color. A coloring book. A picture book, actually. This should be a coloring book. I would color the hell out of this book, though. Alexis Franklin is probably like, don't. She's like. She's like, I actually made something really beautiful. Don't you dare. But okay, why did you want to write a kid's book?
- [05:55]
Kiesa Lehman
You know what kind of book? I saw Alexis yesterday for the first time ever. We've been doing all of this over, over zoom for the last, like, three years. And, man, it was so beautiful. She came here to Houston, she from Dallas. She's so young. I didn't realize how young she was. And I just want to say, like, I adore that. That woman in her art. But, you know, I wrote this piece around the same time that we talked. New York Times showed me these photographs by the incredible photographer Andre Wagner of all New York City black boys. And in the summertime. And they were like, hear, say, we want you to write one of these, like, complimentary essays to go with these photographs. And, you know, New York Times, like a lot of legacy publications, it's sort of stringent sometimes in their style. But I was like, I'll write, but I'm feeling prose poem. And they were like, I don't know about a prose poem. And I was like, well, let me just do it and see. And, you know, for the most part, a lot of the language you see in that book, I mean, I had to take a lot of it Out. But for the most part, you know, I wrote this story about this kid who comes down from New York and this other kid in Mississippi. And I was just trying to play with these ideas of, like, I and we and they and, you know, collectivity and safeness, you know, for me, and environmental degradation. And what happens. You know, the question below the text is, what happens when there are no more woods or gardens to play in for young people like that? And then, you know, Namrata came to me from Coquilla, and she was like, I think this can be a picture book. And I was like, where? Because I always wanted to write books for kids. Like, Long Live Vision was. Initially, I was trying to write a book for young, young adults. I just couldn't pull it off the right way they wanted me to. So, you know, when she came and hit me and with the possibility, I was like, okay, let's. Let's do it. And then we had initial artists, because this was supposed to come out like, 20, 21, 22. Then the initial artist just took a while and, you know, for different reasons, couldn't really do it. And then, you know, I got these other artists who wanted to do it, like, 40 or 50 or so. And then I just saw, like. I saw Alexis's stuff, and I was just like, we ain't got to look no more. Let's just try to make it happen. And the good thing about Alexis is that she came in not just with, like, incredible colors and visual. Visual stuff, but she came in with, like, actual vision. You know, there were only two boys in a book initially. She added a third. The Gardens were. The Gardens were, like, a lot less, sort of, like, dark and ominous. They were just like, you know, happy Gardens. And Alexa just put her style in. And I know you'll feel this, but after heavy and because we were fucking in the pandemic and everybody was dying, and we're killing everybody with our breath, like, I wanted to take a back seat, and I did. In my real life, like, I kind of went in the dark for a while, but I also wanted to take a backseat in terms of creativity. Like, I wanted to kind of be. Be led. And Alexis Franklin let, you know, she let. She led, and I. And I followed. And then, you know, a few. Few years later, we got a book.
- [08:32]
Tracy Thomas
I love that so much. Yeah. I always joke. I'm like, I want a boss so bad, yo. Wanted is someone to tell to do. I don't care if you sexually harass me. I just need to be told what to do.
- [08:45]
Kiesa Lehman
That's so wild that you say that shit. Because like I feel that more than ever like today. Like just tell. But. But then we're both kind of. We say that shit, but we both kind of hard headed. You know what I'm saying? You tell us. Tell us the wrong thing. I quit. Fuck you. Bye.
- [09:02]
Tracy Thomas
That's so true. I worked. I worked a semi corporate job for a long time. I was a manager of a fitness studio. And I took a lot of from people. But what was nice is when I would go home, I was like, oh, feels like your problem. Yeah, this. I'm like, I leave the garage and go in the house and I'm like still stressed out about what question am I gonna ask so and so. Or like it's just like always you hanging over me all the time.
- [09:30]
Kiesa Lehman
Yeah.
- [09:30]
Tracy Thomas
So I would love to have someone just take the blame for my family.
- [09:34]
Kiesa Lehman
I mean, in real life, y'all, it's a problem because I'm. I'm not. Time to eat. What do you want to eat? Oh, I don't care. Time to go somewhere. What do you want to. I don't care. Time that you want to fly. I'm just like, I'll do whatever. You know, I'm, I'm actually like, like to be led. But then when they lead me to someplace whack, I, I get, I catch feelings.
- [09:53]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, that's me. I. I have a lot of opinions, obviously, so.
- [09:57]
Kiesa Lehman
Right.
- [09:57]
Tracy Thomas
No matter what, I'm gonna have a complaint. I just, I have notes. That's. That's what we used to say, you know. I have notes.
- [10:04]
Kiesa Lehman
Yes, yes.
- [10:07]
Tracy Thomas
That's like, I don't. Do they say that in the book world? I have. No.
- [10:10]
Kiesa Lehman
Yes. Yes.
- [10:11]
Tracy Thomas
Because that's what used to say in theater. Like after you do like a run through or whatever. Like when I used to choreograph, it would be like, okay, like, okay, I have notes. You know, act one, scene one.
- [10:22]
Kiesa Lehman
And you know, in the, in the TV and television, that's. That's their language. It don't matter how good the shit is that their job is to have notes. And that, that can be too.
- [10:32]
Tracy Thomas
Wait, I want to ask you about this because I was, you know, Randy Winston.
- [10:36]
Kiesa Lehman
Yeah.
- [10:37]
Tracy Thomas
He and I were having this great conversation during AWP about authors being sensitive. Because he wasn't saying that. I was saying that Randy's like such a defender and lover of authors. So everything negative that I'm about to say came out of my mouth. Not Randy's mouth, but I was saying how like I get Real frustrated with authors because I think they're too precious. Because I feel like the amount of time that an author spends before they get notes is detrimental to them. Like, I used to when I was a dancer, you would go out on stage in a dress rehearsal and you would hear, cut. Like, stop. You look fat and ugly in that dress, right? And it would be like, like, okay, let me just take this note, right? And move on. Like, I understand it is. Or like, you know, your account behind. Or, you know, my director would be like, the choreography doesn't fit. You need to change this whole number or whatever it looks like. But you would be getting constant negative and positive feedback in real time. And so anything that I ever made in life, I always knew someone else was going to have an opinion about it. And that was just, like, part of the process. And I feel like authors have gotten soft a little bit because they don't get enough real time feedback.
- [11:50]
Kiesa Lehman
Right.
- [11:50]
Tracy Thomas
What do you think of.
- [11:51]
Kiesa Lehman
See, see, now we gonna start doing how we do. I think that. That. That is tr. But I would say that the problem is when you look at the other parts of art culture that do get notes all the time, I'm just gonna be. From a writerly standpoint, that shit is weak. That shit. I mean, like, if, like, for me, I like television shows, for better or worse, when there appears to be, like, a singular point of view. And of course, they got notes too. But. But. But I would just say as a writer, if I allowed my editor or Great. And I will just say there are a lot of wonderful writers out there who have, like, these readers that they invite in after first draft, second, third job. I'm not gonna say their names, but they're Pulitzer Prize winners and national books. So one level, you're absolutely right. But on the other level, I don't want to write no editorial. I don't want 15 in on my books, the shit that I write. You know what I'm saying? But you're right. And that is absolute preciousness. That is sensitivity. But that to me also is like, I know I write with a kind of political edge. I don't want coming up in there trying to tell me I need to, like, take the curves out of the shit before I've even thought about how sharp the edge needs to be. So I'm saying two things at once. You're right. We are precious. And most. And a whole lot of writers in this country don't have fucking political edges. But those of us. You know what I'm saying? But those of us who do. Yo, I don't. I. Because I do. Listen, my problem is if you start telling me some shit early on, I'm going to listen to you and. But I am someone who's easy to edit because, like, once I give you the shit and my editor gives me some stuff, I'm not pushing back violently anything like that, but that's because I don't been through six or seven drafts. But just working in TV and film, I just see why a lot of that. I mean, you know, it's not a writerly. It's just not a writerly medium. Right. Like, I thought TV and film were writerly. We talked about this before when I didn't know nothing about TV and film. It's not a writerly medium. Right. It's a directorial medium. And you know, you can argue maybe it's a performative medium, but. So the shit we do is kind of just like loose directions and they're trying to sell whatever you write. They want to sell it to white motherfuckers who drink whole D milk. Like, that's. That's the cool.
- [13:50]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I also drink whole milk. Okay, okay, just take it. I am half white, but I felt like that was a dig at me personally. And I don't like what I want it.
- [13:57]
Kiesa Lehman
What I want it. What? I want to sell it to the white part of you that drinks the whole D milk. And. And there's more. There's more to you than that. And I'm just saying when I'm writing my books, I really fudge trying to write my art to make the motherfucker who drink the white dude who doesn't drink water or drinks all the milk, like, you know me, or there's other people I want to touch. So I feel you. I. I mean, I cannot disagree with you, but I also just want to say when you get 15 people in on something, you get an editorial. And an editorial, usually writerly wise, is going to be less lackluster in terms of like, dynamic shit. Sure. You know what I mean?
- [14:32]
Tracy Thomas
Hear this. This is good. This is good.
- [14:34]
Kiesa Lehman
And we sensitive. We sensitive. And I just want to be like, yeah, we mad sensitive. Foreign.
- [14:46]
Tracy Thomas
That is the end of this bonus teaser. If you were liking what you were hearing, you can listen to the entire episode by going to either patreon.com the stacks and joining the stacks pack, getting access to the discord, being able to participate in our virtual book club and. Or you can go to TracyThomas substack.com and subscribe to Unstacked where you're going to get my writing about books, pop culture, you're going to get other exclusive author interviews, and, of course, these bonus episodes. So go to one of those two places, join us, get to hear the rest of this episode, and support the work that I do by being a part of these wonderful communities. Thank you so much, and I'll see you in the stacks.