A (2:24)

It's also very technical.

B (2:26)

Yes, yes. So, and that's one thing too. Right. We have this chart here and I would put Windsurf at a very technical. Like, you would have to be a technical person to get the best out of it. Now you have people who like Riley and others who are, are, you know, using these technical tools. But if you speak to the team at Windsurf or even Cursor, they'll tell you, yeah, we're building for developers. Right. Their focus is developers. I actually spoke to someone who works at Cursor and I told him like, you know, a lot of like non technical people are using your tools. So is that like changing how you guys build? And like is that like sort of, you know, affecting your decisions? And he straight up was like, no. He's like, we're building for developers. He's like, it's cool to see non developers use it, but the main demographic is developers and, and from a team perspective and a business perspective it makes sense. Right, so you could do it, but I just wouldn't use Windsurf. So I put a D tier.

A (3:21)

Okay, so you're, you're putting a D tier just because of the sort of how it played out?

B (3:26)

Yeah, like realistically I would maybe it would be between an A and a B for me.

A (3:30)

Right.

B (3:30)

Because I used to, I used Windsor for a bit. It was pretty cool. And if based on how it was back then, if I were to rate it, it'd be between an A and a B.

C (3:39)

Okay.

B (3:39)

So but with all the business stuff.

A (3:42)

Putting it in, yeah, I'm putting it in a D just cause it's pretty complicated.

B (3:45)

Okay, well then let's talk about another complicated tool, Cursor.

A (3:49)

Okay. I mean to me, okay, I'll do this one. To me I'm going to give it. It's either A tier or S tier for me.

B (3:59)

Well, so first let's define it on the chart. It's definitely like you have to be technical to use it. Right? Like being able to even open it up and fork a repo NPM run NPM install like these like I don't expect a non technical person to use it but you know, if there's a will, there's a way and I've seen people use it. So I agree if you are a vibe coder and non technical person, you're going to experience pain.

A (4:28)

True. But what I will say about Cursor versus Windsurf, there's a lot more tutorials on Cursor, so and that's one thing like so and a bigger community around Cursor Fair.

B (4:40)

And I'll give you an example. In like the web dev world, like there are people who are pro next JS and Anti Next js. And one of the biggest pros to Next js. You know, people can argue technicalities is the community, right? Especially even with React. Like, let's go one level down React. There are people who love React, who hate React. And the reason react's one is because the community is so huge, right? So there's a lot of support, there's a lot of documentation, there are a lot of external packages. That's why you go to any of these tools and you ask it make me a website, it's going to use React, right? Even the LLMs have picked it, right? So I think that matters. And for the audience sake, I'll give Cursor an A tier. I can agree with that. But to me this is like S. Okay, cool.

A (5:26)

Sam Altman, the co founder of OpenAI.

C (5:29)

Just said that it is the era of the idea guy and he is not wrong. I think that right now is an incredible time to be building a startup. And if you listen to this podcast, chances are you think so too. Now I think that you can look at trends to basically figure out what are the startup ideas you should be building. So that's exactly why I built ideabowser.com every single day you're going to get a free startup idea in your inbox and it's all backed by high quality data Trends. How we do it, people always ask. We use AI agents to go and search.

A (6:05)

What are people looking for and what.

C (6:07)

Are they screaming for in terms of products that you should be building. And then we hand it on a silver platter for you to go check out.

A (6:16)

We do have a few paid plans.

C (6:18)

That take it to the next level, give you more ideas, give you more AI agents and more. Almost like a ChatGPT for ideas with it. But you can start for free ideabrouser.com and if you're listening to this, I highly recommend it.

A (6:33)

What's next?

B (6:34)

Lovable? Lovable cloud? Lovable AI. So I will so explain what that.

A (6:42)

Is because not everyone.

B (6:43)

Yeah, so basically the, the pain point with Lovable and Bolt was really the integrations, right? You would need a backend and it was really difficult, right? You had to sign up and then you had to connect and copy API keys. Again, these are trivial things to a developer. To a non developer, this is a headache. And what they've done, from my understanding, is they've abstracted all this stuff away. So the moment you boot up a level project, I'm assuming they call APIs and they fetch all that information for you, which makes it easier But I still have found people running to the cloud codes and the codex is in the cursor. So I will give Lovable a B. How do you feel?

A (7:31)

I understand why you're giving it a B. You know, because you look at it from an engineering perspective and you're probably like, well, if I'm going to go and create a product, yeah, maybe Lovable is something I can get, you know, get going a pretty page. But I mean, from a prototyping perspective.

B (7:53)

I'll give you this. I think V0 is better than lovable.

A (7:57)

Why do you say that?

B (7:59)

Vercel's marketplace like their integrations, it gives you plethora of options, right? So with, for, with Lovable, for example, they've sort of picked what back end you're going to use. It's Supabase. Right. And there's pros and cons to that. Like the depending on the type of apps you're going to build, there's pros and cons to it. With Vercel you have all the type, all different types of what you might call it backends. And here's where the bias comes in. Convicts is going to be on the Vercel marketplace soon. And I think Convex is the best market, best backend. And the reason why there's biases, because I work there. Now just full disclosure because people going to be like, oh, he's talking about it because he works there. Well, I started working there because I like the product.

A (8:39)

Homie didn't look at the camera once until he started saying convex. Say the word convex and he was like convex. Convex is the number one.

B (8:47)

Yeah, I'm PR trained but I personally think, and I've for example had my wedding not too long ago and I tried using all the AI tools to build like our RSVP site and at some point all of them bricked except v0. So even if I were just to like vibe code and just go through it, I personally think out of the V0 bolt and lovable, I would pick V0.

A (9:15)

There's also templates and components that you can reuse with V00.

B (9:19)

Yes, yes. And just like the integration with Vercel, it's one of those things too where I know this probably doesn't matter to a tier list, but I also sort of think about like the future of the plot, like the tool we're using and it's like it seems like Vercel and V0 are going to be very tight knit and that's like a bet I'm willing To make if I'm building a product that I want users to use.

A (9:43)

So are you giving V0s tier? Is that what I'm hearing?

B (9:47)

If I was a Vibe. Vibe coder, like, let's say I did not know how to write code, I would. Maybe right there. I don't. I don't think I'd give it like a. Can we do it in between? Okay, so I'll do it in. In between. And this is definitely non technical friendly. Lovable, of course, is here as well. You sort of disagreed with lovable being a B tier, so we're.

A (10:08)

No, no.

B (10:09)

Do you think it's A? I can give you like an A between B.

A (10:14)

That's what I think it really is.

B (10:15)

Okay, I'll give you an A between B.

A (10:17)

That's what I think it is.

B (10:17)

Bolt. I would put them on par with lovable.

A (10:21)

Yeah.

B (10:21)

Okay. Yeah, fair. See? Not a biased investor. I respect that. Roark. I personally haven't used Roark, so I will trust your judgment. I know they do mobile apps.

A (10:34)

Right. So there's this new class of Vibe coding apps for literal mobile apps, and that's Vibe code app by Riley. Our friend Riley. Yep. And Roark.

B (10:45)

Yes.

A (10:47)

I haven't played with both of them extensively, but played with them enough to know that Vibe code app is. It really is the lovable for mobile apps. I find the. Oh, actually there's also anything.

B (11:05)

Yes, I have seen anything. I maybe did one prompt and then I stopped just because I don't really do a lot of mobile app stuff. But I have realized, and even at Convex, there's a lot of, like these mobile app Vibe coding platforms that are popping up. So this seems to be the thing.

C (11:24)

And for a reason. Right.

A (11:25)

Like, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to make money building apps.

B (11:30)

So you think mobile app. Like if I wanted to, let's say I wanted to launch a consumer product. You think mobile is better than web?

A (11:37)

I don't think it's better. I think it depends what you're building. I just think that right now there's. There's just a lot of, you know, you're seeing the cal AES of the world making millions of dollars a month with relatively simple apps with AI baked in. So I think that there's going to be a lot of people who want to build something similar in different niches. And that's why I think that right now I'm actually coming up with a lot of mobile app ideas. And that's why.

B (12:04)

Yeah, you see, maybe I'm Just thinking too, like, I'm too much in my developer mind. But it, to me, it feels like downloading an app feels like too much commitment for me. Like, I would really need a reason to download an app. But it seems like people are just downloading apps. Like they'll watch a TikTok video and they're like, yeah, I want to check this out. So am I wrong or is like, why the push for apps? Because everyone's doing an app now, a consumer app.

A (12:32)

I think I'm the same way, to be honest.

B (12:35)

Like, it to me just feels like a lot of commitment.

A (12:38)

Yeah, it is a commitment. It is a commitment. But like, if you are suffering from back pain and you're on TikTok and you searched, you know, back pain for tall people and then you see this ad that is just, hey, are you tall? And say, as a matter of fact, I'm six foot three, you know, well, we have this AI that helps you like reduce back pain by 35% in this, you know, we become your back pain coach. You know, do you want to download this? And it gets me at that moment. I might, I might make sense. I might download it.

B (13:11)

And I, I find that. And like observing my wife has helped me realize social Trends. People use TikTok like a search engine.

A (13:18)

Yes.

B (13:20)

So that, that makes sense. So where do we put Vibe code? Roark anything. If you've used anything, I think we.

A (13:28)

Can put them right below lovable and bolt.

B (13:34)

So B tier solid.

A (13:36)

B tier solid. I think that you can use any of those and you know, maybe one of them is slightly better on the day or slightly worse on the day. But I think that they though what's going to happen, I think is those are. It's so relatively new. Like I think Roark launched like a couple months ago via codap.

B (13:55)

I also remembered another one, my boy Seth is a zero, which is a mobile app one as well. So yeah, I think, like, to your point, I haven't tested any of them one to give a definitive opinion, but they're all fairly new and it's exciting stuff and I'm sure they have free tier, so max it out.

A (14:12)

I think they're going to get better too over time. Right. Do you know, are they all built on Expo?

B (14:18)

Yes, I think from my understanding, I know Roark is. I'm pretty sure they are. It would be foolish for them to not be because you would want your app to be on both Android and App Store. And if you're doing a Swift app, then you're gonna have to do the Google Play version and that's two different code bases. So it would make sense for them to use Expo. And again the ecosystem is growing, REACT is growing. There's a lot of money behind it. So I would think that they're all built on Expo.

A (14:50)

Cool.

B (14:51)

So that, and here's the funny part, all these guys are probably using the same model underneath the hood. It's either going to be Claude or it's going to be Codex which is gaining a lot of hype. I'm interested to hear what you think about Codex.

A (15:07)

I mean you're the front end developer. A little higher.

B (15:12)

A little higher. Yes. So I've seen a lot of hype with GPT5's Codex model and I used it in cursor. It was okay. Like it was pretty good. But I still think Cloud Sonnet 4 or 5 is the best coding model right now. So I would put Codex like right below Cursor but above Lovable and Bolt.

A (15:36)

And for non technical people, like should they be using codecs?

B (15:40)

Yes. Codex does have like a web version. I would put it like somewhere around here and there's to your point to like a cursor. There are a lot of videos on codecs because they seem to have gone both developer and non developer attention. You can use like OpenAI's web based cloud platform to run codecs. So I would put it like somewhere around here.

A (16:02)

Yeah.

B (16:03)

I still think there's a little feat. Like there's a little difficulty to it if you're non technical. But where there's a will, there's a way.

A (16:09)

My take on Codex is it's a bit. Yeah, it's a little worse than cursor but it's gains like the most, most improved award.

B (16:20)

Yes. 100. Because it sucked in the beginning.

C (16:23)

It really did.

B (16:23)

And like now people are comparing it to Claude like Claude Coates. So they've definitely Sam's cooking.

A (16:29)

Sam's cooking. And I wouldn't bet against them.

B (16:32)

No, no. They have trillions of dollars or whatever but billions.

C (16:36)

Like well it's important.

B (16:37)

Right.

A (16:37)

Because if you're gonna pick something you 100 right.

B (16:40)

You don't want to be wind surfed. I'm not mean, I swear. I'm actually a nice guy. Yeah. But I couldn't help it. Yeah. Cloud code.

A (16:53)

Okay. All right. What do you think?

B (16:56)

I think cursor's king, man.

A (16:57)

Wow.

B (16:58)

Cloud code got nerfed.

A (16:59)

Cloud recently though.

B (17:01)

Recently has got nerfed. Yes. Like if this was 4 weeks ago it'd be like this like Cloud code would be above S tier. But like now, like I don't know what's happening. Like I rather like it'll use the same model, Cloudsonic 4. 5. I'll get better results with it on cursor than with on cloud code. And the reason being is a lot of people think like oh, if they're using the same model, it's the same output but really the difference maker is like yes, everyone's using the same model but, but then you build the agent on top and basically what that means is like when you tell, when you prompt, hey, fix this error.

C (17:43)

Right.

B (17:43)

The LLM doesn't have the power to read a file. You have to give it a tool that gives it the ability to read a file and then it reads that code and then it gives you the output and now you have to give it a tool to write that code. Right. So it seems to me Cursors agent, which is built on top of cloud code that gives it the ability to read, write, edit and all that type of stuff might actually be better than Claude Claude code. Cloud code. Right. So I, I think this is going to be a tug of war, right, like where cloud code will be better at one point then cursor, then cloud code, then cursor. Right. But as a non technical person, if I, if I would be frank, if I was a non technical person, cursor would be here, cloud code would be here and this would be the tier list.

A (18:28)

We're missing one, one company here who repl it.

B (18:35)

Are you an investor in Replica?

A (18:37)

No, I'm not an investor.

B (18:37)

Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask a serious question. I don't know anyone who's used replit but they're winning. I'm not even trying to be funny.

A (18:47)

Yeah.

B (18:48)

Like I actually don't know a single soul who's used replit. The one time I use replit was back when I like this is like three years ago, four years ago.

A (18:56)

Yeah.

B (18:57)

And I needed to run some sort of like file, some Python script. So who uses replay?

A (19:03)

I mean I know two people who use.

B (19:05)

Okay, so they're winning then. Okay, makes sense.

A (19:07)

Yeah.

B (19:08)

I don't know where I'd put replit. I've never built anything fully with it. People seem to love it. They raised a bajillion dollars as well. So I'll trust your discretion.

A (19:19)

I mean they've, from what I understand they have two modes with replit. So they have like your vibe code mode and then they have agent mode. So you prompted and it takes like 15 or 20 minutes and it goes and builds your app instead of one minute or two minutes, which is cool.

B (19:39)

So they built their own agent. Are they using like their own model? Like, are they developing their own models or.

A (19:44)

I'm not sure, like, if they're developing their own models. It's hard to like, say.

C (19:49)

Right.

A (19:51)

But I have seen, you know, my friend Billy Howell actually talks a lot about replit and I've seen some of the output on it and it's pretty impressive.

B (20:02)

So you're giving it an A.

A (20:07)

I'm giving it. I'm putting it like lovable replit.

C (20:10)

Yeah.

B (20:10)

So, okay. Yeah, so this is fair. So we have V0 close to, in my opinion, maybe a little in the A tier. But like, if I was a Vibe coder, I'd go for V0. Codex. Lovable bolt. Actually, can I add one more?

C (20:25)

Yeah.

B (20:25)

Have you heard of Chef?

A (20:27)

No.

B (20:28)

Chef was actually built by Convex. But what's funny is the reason Shelf was built and we built Chef was to show Vibe coding platforms that if you use Convex as your backend, it's better. So we didn't build it to compete. One or two people worked on Chef and it's actually pretty good. Like off rip you'll get. And I won't because people be like, oh, you're being biased. So I won't even show. You could check it out. It's free. So Chef isn't meant to compete, but it was more so of a showcase for tools to use Convex as their backend. And a lot of the new tools, like you have vla, you have bloom. Like a lot of the new Vibe coding platforms are all built on Convex because they saw this and they're like, oh, and we open source the repo to anyone can fork and build a Vibe coding platform. And I non bias would put Chef along these lines. The only thing is, again, we're not trying to compete, so at some point these tools will get better. Like, for example, I don't think there's a way for you to assign a domain on Chef. Right. So wasn't meant to impress users, but more so developers who are building these tools. But yeah, I think I'm. I'm pretty happy with this list.

A (21:40)

Okay, so just to wrap this up, what advice do you have for non technical people and technical people if they're trying to choose a Vibe coding platform?

B (21:50)

Yeah. So if you're technical, then, man, it's like cursor or cloud code. Like there's. There's no other option in my opinion. And that's simply because you're probably going to be steering the wheel anyway. So you're not going to be vibe. Vibe coding. I know there's like open code by my uncle Dax. I haven't used it. Sorry. Onk I should. I hear a lot of developers talk, you know, highly of it. So like you're probably using one of these tools and you're probably steering the ship, right? So no advice to you, just do what you're supposed to do. Now to non technical people, I think there has to be. I've noticed after last couple of months with all the new tools and all that stuff happening, there has to be a mindset shift. And the mindset shift is a lot of people get frustrated if in five prompts they don't build something. And it's like respectfully the audacity to think you're going to build software that's fully functional, that people are going to use and care about. Borderline, pay you money, I don't want to crash out. And you think you could do it in 5, 6 prompts when you know, it takes time, it takes planning, it takes testing. There's alpha, there's beta, then there's a final version and then like software is art. And you know, thank the Lord that there are tools that allow the non technical person to build stuff. But we need audacity, we need to treat it with care. Your first version doesn't work. You used, you know, you used lovable and it broke. Okay, so what, you'll use another tool and try again, right? I think there needs to be a shift in understanding that software is difficult. Websites are easy, you know, landing pages are easy, but software is difficult, especially once people actually pay for. Right. So when we enter this mindset we're like, okay, I'm going to build something. It's going to be awesome. It's going to take me time because I'm going to make it awesome. Then we'll be okay. But I'll see people like, Yeah, I prompted 10 times and it broke. Welcome to software development. So that's the one thing I would see. Like there are a lot of cool tutorials. I mean you bring up a lot of awesome people that show people like the mindset. You know, planning cursor has this one thing called plan mode, which is pretty awesome. And all that stuff is great. And there are even tools that allow you to plan now. And you know, Chad, GPT5 is great if you want to like just go back and forth and brainstorm. It's more about mindset. Now, a lot of non technical people fail to realize that it really takes time to build something awesome. It's like building a business, right? Or if you're a gym bro, it's like going to the gym. You know, great things take time. They take patient take calculation. There's mistakes. Mistakes lead to experience. Experience leads to you being a better builder. So take time and enjoy the ride.

A (24:33)

There you go. Well said. I want to say one last thing to end my recommendation to people is actually to follow all the founders of these businesses. So V0 Guillermo Codex, Sam Altman, lovable Anton Bolt is Eric, Eric Simons, Replit, Amjad, et cetera, et cetera. Follow them and then see who you believe in. Like if you really connect with Eric, if you really connect with Amjad, if you really connect with Sam Altman, like then pick that platform facts because you.

B (25:07)

Are betting on someone, you're betting, you're betting on a company, right? And this is why again, like people who bet on Windsurf got windsurfed.

A (25:13)

Yeah. God bless him. All right, that's the episode. Mickey, thanks for coming on.

B (25:20)

Greg, I appreciate you, man. It's been, it's been a fun year.

A (25:23)

It's been a fun year.

C (25:24)

You've had a busy year.

A (25:25)

I'm gonna include links to follow you. I know you're getting to a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube.

B (25:31)

We're trying to, we're trying.

A (25:33)

We'll include that there and see you next time.

B (25:36)

Appreciate you, bro. Thank you again.

A (25:38)

Later.