Ryan Seacrest (15:51)

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Ryan Smith (16:21)

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Stephen A. Smith (16:34)

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Stephen A. Smith (16:55)

Welcome back. Now let's get to the latest in the federal sex trafficking and racketeering trial against Sean Diddy Combs testimony resumed this morning from a former assistant using the pseudonym Mia. This is her second day of testimony where Mia said Combs physically and sexually assaulted her numerous times when she worked for him. Mia says that she also felt trapped with no safe way to report the abuse she suffered. The former assistant testified she was suspended several times from her job for different reasons, including accidentally falling asleep after being awake for days and reacting to one of Combs violent episodes. The jury saw an email Mia received from human resources following the incident that noted she was suspended without pay for five days. Mia testified she was told her suspension was because Combs said she was being insubordinate. Combs has pleaded not guilty to charges that include racketeering, conspiracy and sex trafficking. If convicted on all counts, he could face up to life in prison. Joining Me. Now to discuss this and other elements of the trial this week is Ryan Smith, contributor to the show, legal analyst extraordinaire for ABC Sports center anchor as well. What's up? Welcome back to the show. Ryan, how are you, man? How's everything?

Ryan Smith (18:10)

Good to see you, Stephen. How you doing, man?

Stephen A. Smith (18:13)

Oh, man, this great. This case is crazy, man. I'm doing well, but I'm doing a hell of a lot better than Diddy. Let's get that out the way. Definitely a hell of a lot better than him. I want to pick up from where I just left off. What's the significance of Mia's testimony this morning?

Ryan Smith (18:26)

It's huge. Not only from the perspective that she talks about how she was sexually assaulted by Diddy, which is a big part of the prosecution's case, but it's also part of the racketeering case. Part of what they're trying to prove is a forced labor element of his racketeering case, essentially saying he had people like Mia working for days in a row under force of threats or coercion. What threats? There's threats that she has over text message, that of communications where he's saying, I'mma tell everything. Things like sexual assault that she experienced in her mind that might be told to Cassie and others that might hurt her. So what they're trying to put together to me as testimony is a couple of different things. First is that there was an element of forced labor going on under Diddy where people felt like they had to do things that were extreme under forced of, like, threat or violence. She talks about how he threw a computer at her, threw spaghetti at her. That concern led her to be in this forced labor situation. She's also there to corroborate elements of Cassie's story. Cassie talking about the sexual assault she went through. And now Mia talking about what she experienced as part of the overall case of Diddy having this criminal enterprise, having all these people working for him, planning certain things, doing certain, certain things to cover up the crimes they believe he was committing.

Stephen A. Smith (19:39)

So what else stood out to you in court this week? I mean, that seems like more than enough. Was there anything else that stood out to you over the last few weeks?

Ryan Smith (19:45)

Clark's testimony. That was huge. I mean, this woman talking about everything she went through working for him, working with him, that contributed to the elements of kidnapping and arson? Because you talk about Kid Cudi, that whole situation. We talked about this last week, Stephen. A. The idea that Kid Cudi feels that he tried to bomb his Porsche, that's the arson Part. So she's talking about all the different relationships that Cassie had with Kid Cudi, how did he found out and the reactions he had. Coming to her house with a gun, forcing her to go one place that's part of the force, coercion and all of this. And then doing these things like breaking into Kid Cudi's house. She talks about everything that happened there and that she's then assigned to go and tell him not to talk to the police. All of this works into this criminal enterprise they're starting to talk about here. This idea that he owned or operated and associated this enterprise of doing crimes and had all these people doing things to help facilitate that. When we talked last week, we talked about, hey, where is all of this going now? We're starting to see Stephen A. Where all this is going. It's not just about the accusations of sexual assault, the accusations of being a bad boss, the accusations of doing things, of threatening violence. It's the fact for prosecutors that he is doing all of these things to sort of facilitate criminal activity. And then on the other end, involving all these people to do these things for him, to either conceal it or to keep it going, and then doing it under force of threats or coercion, saying to people like me, hey, you do. Or the insinuation is, hey, you do. You don't do this for me, I'm going to tell everything about what happened with you and me. You do selling somebody else. You don't come with me. I've got a gun. You got to come with me, even if you don't want to. This is the prosecution starting to lay out that most powerful case on racketeering. That's what they need to get to get the maximum time in jail.

Stephen A. Smith (21:33)

And it's interesting that you bring that up because obviously when we've had you on. We've had you on covering this for us, and we really, really appreciate it. You made a point to say, basically, be patient, just wait. They're just starting to make their case. You know, when you're talking about him and his behavior, domestic violence, that's not sex, Sex trafficking, that's not racketeering. They're laying the groundwork for their case. You kept emphasizing that. Right now, how are you feeling about what the government is doing and how they're doing in presenting this case against Diddy? What kind of A grade would you give them right now?

Ryan Smith (22:07)

Give them B plus to A minus, maybe even A. And here's why. They have their ducks in a row and they have their information Set and their witnesses, from what we're seeing in court, are testifying very, very well. What do I mean by that? Well, the groundwork part of it, like you talk about when you first. When we first started talking about this, you asked me how long this case would last. I said six to eight weeks. Now they're even saying it could go five weeks. So this case is picking up steam. The prosecution is not only efficiently presenting their case because, Stephen, you got to think about this as, like, people are sitting in that courtroom every day for hours hearing this stuff. If it drags on and on and on, and prosecution can't be very efficient with their points, you start losing jurors. They're going fast, they're going smoothly, and they're getting out information very quickly and very precisely. That's helpful for the jury. Not only that, cross examination becomes huge here because these people are getting pressed back. Let's say, for example, me and Capricorn. Yeah, they're getting pressed back on their social media posts. All these things they posted with Diddy. These witnesses are prepared, though. They're talking about, hey, I posted this on this day. Yes, but it didn't mean. I didn't feel this way at the time. They're talking about with Capricorn, Clark, they tried to press her on the fact of the. Did he have a gun? Yes, he had a gun. I had to go with him because he had a gun. That's witness preparation right there. You don't want that witness getting up there, hemming and hauling, opening up other lines of questioning. Now, the defense is doing what they can do, but what the speed of this case and the witness testimony I'm reading is showing me are prosecuting witnesses that are very well prepared and a prosecution team that is slowly and methodically but efficiently building that case for rico. It's not an easy thing to do. And from what I'm seeing so far, reading, because we're not able to see it on tv, what I'm reading so far, they seem to be doing a very good job.

Stephen A. Smith (23:51)

Well, we're just reading. You're not just reading. You're in the legal profession. You got sources all over the place. I know you listen to Ryan Smith. I mean, how is the. Tell us, tell us how the legal profession feels the defense is doing in light of how good the prosecution looks right now. What are you hearing about what the legal system. I'm talking about your colleagues, your contemporary lawyers. What do they feel about how the defense is doing?

Ryan Smith (24:17)

Lawyers I know and people I talk to they think the defense had an uphill case to begin with. I mean, this was a tough, this is a very tough case to be. Steve, you and I have talked about this before. This prosecution office, one of the best in the world. I mean, this is, this is top notch. Best lawyers you can get. That's number one. So you're fighting a really good lawyer on the other side. The second thing is, did he has a lot of bad facts against him. He's got lots of people coming forward talking about sexual assault and abuse. And so you've got a lot of people talking about the systems, how things ran, how we use threats and coercion to get them to do certain things. This is the RICO case. So they've got so much going against them. How are they doing? From people I talk to, the defense is doing well because you play the hand that you have. That's the key with defense. I think sometimes people think, well, defense lawyers are going to come out and have this smoking gun that nobody saw coming. That's not going to happen. That's not going to happen because there's so many bad facts.

Stephen A. Smith (25:08)

I apologize. I wasn't, I didn't mean to ask. How do lawyers, your contemporaries, feel the defense is doing in terms of are they doing a good job or are they not? I meant to ask, are they do. Are they confident they gonna be able to get this man off? That's what I'm asking to win this case. Because you can have lawyers, you can have lawyers saying, I think they're doing good based on the hand they dealt, they're doing an excellent job. I'm asking, are there chances improving or dissipating towards getting them off?

Ryan Smith (25:40)

You're asking me what I think or you're asking what they would tell you if they were being honest?

Stephen A. Smith (25:45)

I'm asking you and your contemporaries, what do y' all peel from what y' all have read, what y' all have heard? What's the scuttlebutt in your profession about how it's looking for Diddy getting worse.

Ryan Smith (25:56)

And worse by the day, Getting worse and worse by the day. And every, every bit of testimony I hear, it's getting harder and harder for him to get off. I think his chances are well below 50% of beating these charges. And you and I talked about this last week. Perhaps there is a way this jury looks at this, doesn't believe certain witnesses and does what we call a compromise verdict. We're going to convict on some things that are lesser charges and maybe not on racketeering. That's perhaps something that might happen here. But I got to tell you, Stephen A. What I'm seeing here is this racketeering case being built very well. That's the main part of this case. When you have witnesses coming up and talking about, he did this violence, he did that violence. We expected that. What I think is really interesting to me is how these witnesses are testifying that he would use that. I'm going to say this about you. If you don't do this. I brought a gun. You're coming with me. You're going to do this with Kid Cudi. You're then going to talk to him and tell him not to talk to. This is exactly what people say happens in regal cases. And you got a jury who might be looking at it like, well, RICO cases, I think, of mob cases. I think people have to understand. What do you think happens in those cases? It's a mob boss allegedly telling somebody else to do this, do that. I'm not getting my hands dirty. You're going to do all these things. And I'm directing. And Stephen A. There's another part of this that I think might resonate with this jury that I think we have to keep our eye on. These are women, in particular, young women coming forward, talking about the forced labor, the violence perpetrated on them, the ways in which they were forced to do things at gunpoint. If you believe Capricorn, if you talk about what Capricorn Clark talked about, the things that he would say about them, will jurors look at this and say, he's treating women like this. When we think about a mob case, we think different men trying to prove things to other men. I wonder if there will be a dynamic of this, of these young women in Mia's case, somebody in their twenties trying to work in the music business and all of a sudden realizing they're in these situations.

Stephen A. Smith (27:55)

Ryan, you know, I appeared on Law and Order recently. You know, I got killed. I got killed in first five minutes, you know, but. But it was. It was on my bucket list because I'm a law and order fanatic. I always watch the show, right? And we often see the defense coming to the prosecution looking to make a deal, okay? And sometimes the prosecution accepts it because obviously you represent the state. And, you know, the quicker the case ends, the less money you have to spend, et cetera, et cetera. In real life, in the real world, what if Diddy's defense came and went to the prosecution and saying, it's not looking pretty good for us? But you know what? We'd like to plead to a lesser charge. This prosecution, the Southern District of New York, they strike me as a. They're gone for blood. They want this man. They ain't trying to settle. They don't want a settlement. That's how, that's what I'm getting from this to that.

Ryan Smith (28:45)

You say what, a ship is sailed? That deal. Ship, I think, has sailed. Now, look, Stephen, A. I'm not a part of their office, so I can't say if somebody there might say, hey, if here's what we don't know. We're in week two, week three of this case. If something goes really wrong for the prosecution that's unexpected, that might change this dynamic. But if it keeps going the way it's going, I would say that ship sailed. That ship probably sailed not long after the raid or not, maybe a couple months after. They started whispering things of charges because for him, the more he has been defiant, the more you put a prosecution in a place of, well, he's been saying for months, these are all lies. This isn't true. I didn't assault anybody. I didn't do any of this. And now the prosecution has to deal not only with their case, but the fact that in the public opinion, this case has taken on huge attention. And you don't want to be perceived as, I'm letting him off the hook, especially if you have a strong case. So in my opinion, that ship has sailed unless there is something that we don't know or something unexpected happens for the prosecution.

Stephen A. Smith (29:46)

I kind of agree with you because I believe even if they don't do an exempt, an exemplary job of proven sex trafficking and, and, and, and racketeering, I think they've made such a case for depicting him as a monster that you're going to have jurors that say, no, his ass going to jail. The hell with it. I'm going to say he's guilty for this, too. I mean, I really feel like it can get that bad. But let me move on to this next question because I know you got to get you out of here. Suge Knight called in the CNN last night and said Combs should take the stand in his own defense. Combs actually did back in 2001, if you remember, when he testified in the Manhattan nightclub shooting that sent rapper Sean to prison for 10 years. Combs was acquitted of all charges in that case, by the way. We've got to mention that. But Ryan Smith, is it possible that he'll end up taking the stand in this Trial and should he? Would you advise him to do so?

Ryan Smith (30:35)

No, not at all. I don't want to get on the wrong side of Suge. Now, that's number one, right?

Stephen A. Smith (30:40)

But look. No, neither do we. Neither do we.

Ryan Smith (30:44)

But I'll tell you what, that is a last resort of last resorts. I know that people watch Law. Look, Stephen A. I'm a Law and Order fan, too. I know people watch shows like that. They see people take the stand sometimes. They see people jerk, her mind's being changed, something comes out. Oh, my God. I can't believe it. That is a rarity. This is something you do not want. The moment he takes the stand and opens his mouth, everything about his life is fair game, including stuff that they could not bring into court. Now he's opening his mouth. Let's ask him about those things that wouldn't have been admissible because he opened his mouth on them. Once he opens the door on some of that stuff, things that he might not even be thinking about, ways in which he might want to defend himself that his lawyers tell him not to say, but maybe he could say, because anything can happen on that stand. Now you're giving yourself into an even deeper hole. So for me, that I do not think he should do it. I would never advise it. And honestly, even if everything was against him, I would still say no. Because once you open that door, that could change everything about what you as a defendant think or what you as a person who's on trial thinks could happen to you. And I think it's easy for people to think about it outside of that, like, I'm going to prove myself. But that is not how it plays out in a courtroom.

Stephen A. Smith (32:01)

Maybe I'm just. Maybe I'm thinking a little bit differently because I got to open my mouth for a living. I mean, you host, I commentate, you know, and so I'm thinking about, oh, my God, people accusing. I got to sit here and listen to all of these people talk and I can't say anything in my defense. That's the thing you want, Ryan.

Ryan Smith (32:16)

But Stephen A. I see you get cross examined. But now let's imagine you getting cross examined on your own words for days in a row. And not only that, on things that might have flowed from those words that you didn't even bring up.

E (32:27)

Right?

Ryan Smith (32:27)

That's the problem with cross examination. You open a door, and that door can be so much wider than you think.

Stephen A. Smith (32:34)

Let me throw this by you. I don't know if you've seen the reports percolating right now, my man, they're talking about how Trump, President Donald Trump has not closed the door on pardoning P. Diddy for this sex trafficking and racketeering case. I mean, what do you make of that, Ryan? I mean, and how do you anticipate something like that could potentially influence the prosecution?

Ryan Smith (32:59)

I don't even know what to say. Okay, so first thing is, if Diddy's convicted, he can do it. President Trump can do it. That's number one. Number two, I wouldn't, as a prosecutor, I would not let that affect me in any way. Here's the deal. My job is to prosecute the case. That's it. My job is to prosecute the case. If the President chooses to do something else, then he chooses to do something else. Now, some people might be out there thinking, okay, if the prosecution hears this, maybe that makes them want to make a deal. That is not how I would approach it. If I was a prosecutor, I would say I can't control those things. What I can control is the case I prosecute. And also what I can control is what my office does. And what my office does is we brought this RICO case and we brought this sex trafficking case and this because we believe that we could win it. So we're going to pursue that. If something happens in the courtroom to change that and we need to make a deal, fine. But I wouldn't do that on the basis of what someone outside of the case says, because to me, that's where you start second guessing yourself. And you erode your case once you start doing that. So if I'm prosecutors, that's noise. My case is my case inside the courtroom, and that's what I focus on.

Stephen A. Smith (34:09)

Any idea how you think that would influence the defense, or, dare I say a jury, if they somehow, some way became aware that the President is just lurking, Being quoted as saying, diddy once liked me a lot. You know, I mean, we would. We. We. We got along just fine. I mean, could you imagine it having any kind of impact on a jury or the defense and its approach? Knowing there's a possibility, maybe that's an angle they could work in the months to come.

Ryan Smith (34:35)

I don't think it would have much of an impact on the defense other than they too, have to kind of go with what's in that courtroom. They're bound by the. In that courtroom, the judge is what matters, the jury is what matters. Outside actors do not matter. So for them, they got to focus on that now. Could they use that later? If Diddy is convicted, they're Trying to appeal. If there's rumblings about that, maybe that's a different discussion. But what I really worry about, Stephen A, Is what you just said, a juror somehow finding out about this. You know, I just want to say this as a person who's practiced law for decades. The courts are just. We don't realize how precious this institution is. We don't realize how amazing it is that we live in a society where people can be on trial and jurors can sit there and they can actually not read anything, see anything, and take the process so seriously that nothing outside affects them. It makes me sad that someone on the outside would say something, maybe, or not realizing how that can taint somebody and possibly taint this process. Because I got to say, Stephen, and this is not me just saying this, this is the greatest process in the world. And I know a lot of people feel like courts go against us, go against black folks. I understand that part of it. I'm just saying, like, the integrity of the court system is so vital to making these cases in any way fair. And if we start having people say things on the outside that could perhaps get to a juror, man, that's disappointing because that's a slippery slope we don't want to go down.

Stephen A. Smith (36:02)

Before I let you go, Zion Williamson, you see the accusation that has been leveled against him, a former girl that he was involved with is saying that he raped and assaulted her. I believe it was 2020. I spoke about it a little bit early on the show. Just make. Listen, I don't know what the hell has happened. I don't know what's going on. I wasn't an eye with. I can't. I know I can't speak to it. I just think that the times that we're living in, when somebody can make an accusation, I find myself saying to the guilty, I hope they throw your ass under the jail. To those who are innocent and being lied upon, it's sad because the presumption of guilt in this day and age advent of social media and beyond is going to be attached to you. What are your thoughts about that? As a legal mind, as a journalist as well, what are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Smith (36:51)

Well, first of all, I look at a situation like this and again, you said it. We're just finding out about this. We don't know all the details, but the moment I looked at it, I think it's important to say, first of all, it's a civil case. This is not a criminal case. This is someone filing a complaint, making an Allegation. I think the first thing I look at in these situations, and Steve and I, we see them more and more these days, was this a consensual relationship that in some way didn't go the way one party or another planned? Or was this a situation where there were elements of assault? And to me, it goes like this, the first thing, and you mentioned it, because the times we live in, I wouldn't be surprised to see an NBA investigation into this. They're going to follow what's happening, and in some way that's going to follow Zion no matter how it plays out. The second thing, though, and I think the more pressing thing for him is this legal process. I think there is a playbook we've seen sometimes with folks who say when these accusations come, they're false, they're baseless. I understand that that's essentially what Zion Williamson's people are saying. But I think what's going to be really important for him is to make sure that in this case, that if it's completely false and completely baseless, then he's going to need to make sure he is saying that specifically and not just saying this person is lying. I think what we've learned more and more nowadays is conduct that people have. When one person thinks it's one thing, somebody else thinks it's something else. It can be used in these kinds of cases to be real assault, to be real litigation, to have real civil consequences. So I don't know what happened between Zion and this particular person, but I think the consequences here could be very big based on what happened in that relationship. And I think it's very important for Zion Williamson and his people to come out and not just do the thing of, hey, this person is false. I know there might be nuances here, but also to understand that we live in a society now where people who make these accusations, we need to be looking at these carefully, and we need to be making sure that his conduct, in some ways, if it did cross the line, he needs to be addressing that. He needs to be addressing that and not simply be dismissing someone if something crossed the line.

Stephen A. Smith (38:59)

Ryan Smith, legal analyst extraordinaire for ABC News, as well as a sports center host for espn. My buddy. I appreciate the contribution to the show as always, my man. Take care of yourself and have a wonderful weekend. I would like to say we'll be talking a little bit down the road, but it's going to be real sooner than that because I'm coming to finals, you know, see you soon.

Ryan Smith (39:17)

I'm Ready?

Stephen A. Smith (39:19)

I got you. I got you. Coming up, President Donald Trump escalated his war with Harvard University going after their ability to enroll foreign students. But what does it all mean? I'll get into that next. Right here. Stephen A. Smith show. Don't go away way.

Ryan Seacrest (39:36)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway. Now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points look for in store tags on items like General Mills cereal, Chobani Greek yogurt, Pillsbury Crescent rolls, cinnamon rolls and biscuits, Haagen Das ice cream, Lindor chocolate truffles, Tillamook ice cream and Cove probiotic sodas. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

Eliza Collins (40:06)

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Stephen A. Smith (40:37)

To Stephen A. Smith show. My next guest has a boxing record of 33 and 0 with 22 knockouts. Tomorrow night he returns to the ring after an 18 month hiatus at the Michelob Ultra arena in Las Vegas, Nevada to take on South Jersey's Thomas Lamanna, whose record is 39.51 with 18 knockouts. He's been here before. Even though his brother's been here before, he's here now. The one and only Jamal Charlo. The hitman. The modern day hitman. What's up, big time? How are you, man? How's everything?

E (41:09)

What's up, Mr. Stephen A. How you doing, man?

Stephen A. Smith (41:12)

Now, where the hell have you been, man? I mean, you too damn great. You're undefeated. You're too damn good for us not to go 18 months without seeing your fight. Where you been, man?

E (41:21)

You know, sometimes Tom heal wounds, you know, and sometimes, you know, I had to step away and, you know, get myself back focused and get back right. Some of the fights that I was looking for, they wasn't happening. And, you know, I'm getting a little older, just had to take care of my kids and just, just, you know, hiding under the rock, working, you Know.

Stephen A. Smith (41:42)

I, I saw you, and the last time we saw each other face to face was at The Errol Spence Jr. And Terence Crawford weigh in. And, And I remember talking to you because your, Your little brother was about to fight Canelo, and I'm like, wait a minute, you bigger. You know, I said, you the one that's supposed to be in that ring with him, and that didn't happen. And I thought that that would have been an epic fight. When you look at your career and the bottom line is you're undefeated, but people barely talk about you. How much has that resonated with you and made you ache to get back in the ring?

E (42:14)

I mean, it. It does feed my eagerness. And then now I'm getting a little bit more educated on, like, you know, process and how everything, you know, happens. And some of these fighters that is trying to fight me on that big level, that big stage is not even on them. It's these promoters, some of the stingy people, some of the people that's. That's over the headquarters. It, you know, it's. It's so hard to make these fights happen. And we with the same handlers half of the time. So honestly, you know, the big fights is, you know, they on the way, but now we starting to. The fighters their self are starting to promote the fight. They starting to make this fights happen now. So it's fighter versus fighter.

Stephen A. Smith (42:59)

You know, I, I get criticized because. Listen, listen, I'm a fan of you and your brother. I always have been. And I, damn it, I'm always gonna be, because I like y' all, I like y' all both. Okay? And, and I remember, you know, when you got yourself into some issues, the crash into the Lamborghini and got arrested, all of this other stuff, I was saying to you when I saw you, I was saying to you what I had said on television. You've been through a lot. You've been going through a lot emotionally, and I'm glad you brought up that stuff about, you know, other fighters, because it seemed like you looked at the system, whether it was the fighters, the promoters, you were struggling to figure out what the hell was going on and why you were going through some of the things that you've gone through. What do you have to say to the boxing audience right now about all you've been through and why they should believe you're back and you're here to stay for the foreseeable future, as opposed to being somebody that's going to disappear in another year or two.

E (43:52)

From the bottom of my heart. My fans was still with me that, that honestly knew what I was going through at the time. I really wanted those big fights, and they wasn't happening. And a lot of times, you know, we don't know what we going through at the moment. And yeah, I was on that, on that verge of crashing out, but, you know, I stay focused. And the reason they, they should know that this is not gonna happen ever again because, like, you know, I move forward and, and I gave it all to God now. So I know God got the best interest of me. Fans that, that have been there for me and that, that, you know, understand me. They know that I'm here to go get another world title at 168, and I'm here to stay. I'm here to stay. I'm back, I'm better. The little time off is something I needed to heal myself, and I did mentally, physically, and emotionally. So I'm back in the ring.

Stephen A. Smith (44:46)

When you say that you were close to crashing out, not my words, your words tell the audience specifically what you mean by that.

E (44:56)

Like, I was giving up in my mind, you know, I gave up on myself sometimes. Some of them dark nights when I was in my dark places, I, I, you know, I didn't have no one to turn to. I was actually embarrassed to go to my mom. I was embarrassed to go to my brother. I thought me going around my brother and my mom and my family and my friends, people that were close to me like, that I was bringing negative energy to them. I didn't want to be around nobody. I want to try to handle it on my own. But then I just stepped out the little box and kind of gave it to God and started giving everything, you know, all my problems and put it on the table, facing them and battling myself, crashing out. Like I was, you know, not caring about what the next person thought about me or how I felt about it to my fans and my, you know, people who really understood me. I just didn't want to listen at the time. And it took me some, you know, some, some shaping up to do. I got back, and I feel like I'm back and I'm strong and I'm better.

Stephen A. Smith (45:51)

How much, if at all, has your brother helped you and how close are you guys now?

E (45:57)

My brother definitely helped me. I even said some things to him when I was going through. I was going through that, you know, I regret saying. And we, we got that one bond where, you know, we talked about it, we figured it out. We figured that wasn't the move and, you know, and me and my twin brother, we. We real close. Now we see how to. He understood what I was going through. You know, it's just one of those things, you know, like, my brother always got me, so he motivated me more. I got we back training together. We went back to our whole roofs. We both got our. Our first trainer back, the amateur trainer that we started this boxing stuff off with, and we both trained together. We got our boxing gym together. We, you know, we back on. You know, he went through the vanilla fight, and I wish I could have been there a little bit more, but I blame that on me. So now it's my turn to get in there with him.

Stephen A. Smith (46:51)

I'm wondering whether or not that's ever gonna happen. I think you got business to handle with Caleb Plant first. However you got this fight. Cause you can't take anything for granted in the boxing ring. You know that a hell of a lot better than me or most people. Talk to me about this fight coming up, who this brother is and what you think he brings to the table, particularly going up against the likes of you. This guy, Thomas Lamana, I mean, I'm.

E (47:13)

Not taking nothing away from Thomas Lamar. He has experience. He has like 39 fights or whatnot. He's a tall guy, rangy. He's been in the amateur. He's been around boxing for a while. He's not. It's not like a pushover. No walkover. He's just, you know, he's never been in there with a Jamal Charlotte. I don't come to lose. I don't come to play. I'm gonna try to be as precise as I can. I'm gonna feed him everything that he. He's available for the defense makes championships, and you know that. So my defense will be on point. I'll be sharp. I'm faster, I'm better. I'm telling you, I. I only could talk about it, but I'd rather show you, you know, but stepping up and being, you know, who he said you're gonna be, you know, I mean, we're gonna see, you know, hopefully he can stand up to the. The punishment, but if not, you know, it is what it is. We fight for the wba. So it'll be my third world title in my third division.

Stephen A. Smith (48:04)

That's right. You already won the junior middleweight in the middleweight title, and you're undefeated. And now you're going for a super middleweight title. Everybody believes that this is the setup. Obviously, you're on the undercard. Kayla Plant is on the main card. The main event that night, and everybody's heard about y' all history where, you know, you. You know, you. You grabbed his bed and supposedly slapped you at all this. Y' all don't like each other, but according to reports, y' all have talked to each other, and y' all ain't gonna call y' all friends or anything like that, but y' all understand the business that comes with it, right now. Everybody's looking forward to you ultimately fighting that dude. How much are you looking forward? How much does this fight serve as motivation, knowing that in all likelihood, Caleb Plant will be next, assuming he handles his business Saturday night.

E (48:46)

Right. He has a WBA interim title. The super should be the. The super champion should be vacated soon, and me and Caleb Plant should be fighting for that world title. I want to fight. That's the fight that the fans want. That's the fight that needs to happen. No if, ands or bus about it. You know, the Canelo fight, yeah, that's a cool fight, but the fans and all people around the world, they'd rather see me fight that fight. That's the fight I want to have. Yes, we. We talked about it. We. We handle business together. You know, he got to take care of his business, I got to take care of mine. You got to take care of his family, I got to take care of mine. Do the same. But you got a different hunger in Jamal Charlo now. That's the fight I want. That's the fight we're gonna have.

Stephen A. Smith (49:28)

So you want the Caleb Plant fight more than you want Canelo? More than you want David Benavidez?

E (49:34)

Yeah, at this point, for sure.

Stephen A. Smith (49:37)

Okay. All right, so what's gonna happen?

E (49:40)

I'd rather. I'd rather fight for my legacy rather than just go, oh, vinavidas. Because he so called the Mexican monster Canelo, because he's Canelo, you know, he's all time great or whatever. Hall of Famer, you know, can't take nothing away from none of these fighters. Caleb Plant himself, he's one of those high guard champions. I mean, but I feel like this one of those fights, me and Kelly Plant, we. This. This would be better right now, at the time, if this would be a better fight than a Canelo fight or a Benavidez fight.

Stephen A. Smith (50:11)

But. But why do you want him so badly? Put it. I don't want to speculate for it. Why do you tell the world why you want him so bad?

Ryan Smith (50:16)

History.

E (50:17)

We got history. He snuck me at the thing. He want to be tough. He want to be, you know, He a culture vulture. I want all that, you know, if you really want me to go there with you, you know. Okay. Not on my level. You know what I'm saying? From Houston. He from Tennessee. Whatever. We're both Southern. But, you know, just speaking on it, like, as real as I can. I want to fight somebody that, like, I want that fight. I'm more eager for that fight, if anything.

Stephen A. Smith (50:41)

Right. Well, then that means you're gonna handle your business even more Saturday night. Can I get a prediction for. I'll let you get on out of here. Are we looking at a knockout Saturday night? What are we looking for?

E (50:48)

I'm gonna beat his ass for the whole 12 rounds. And if I knock him out, I'm knock him out.

Stephen A. Smith (50:53)

I got you. I'll see you soon, man. I'm happy to see you back. Handle your business. So you can stay back. I don't want to see. I don't. I love your brother, you know I love your brother, but I was so mad when he was in the ring with Canelo. Cause I was like, he's moving up two weight classes. You were supposed to be in there against that brother because you're a little bigger.

E (51:11)

And we both was mad at each other because I was mad at you for picking on LeBron. Leave LeBron alone.

Stephen A. Smith (51:15)

Oh, you stop that, man. It's me picking on LeBron. I'm picking on the 6, 8, 260 pound dude. I'm picking on him. I'm picking. That's what we doing tomorrow.

E (51:24)

You showing up at the fights is just like me showing up at Taylor Plant. Them fights.

Stephen A. Smith (51:28)

You.

E (51:28)

You come on. Antagonizing the man.

Stephen A. Smith (51:34)

All the best, man. I'll be watching you Saturday night, bro. We'll talk soon. And we'll talk about that, LeBron, when I see you, too, we'll talk about. All right, handle your business. All right, bro. Take it easy. Good luck, man. That was Jamal Charlo. I'm wishing them luck, man. You know, I had a lot of confidence, a few conversations with him in the past, man. He's good people. I'm really hoping that he handles his business Saturday night. I think he will. And I would like to see him against Kayla Plant, to be honest with you. Really, really would. Coming up, President Donald Trump bids farewell to Elon Musk and escalates his war with Harvard University. I'll get into all of that and then some right here on the Stephen A. Smith Show. Don't go away. Welcome back to Stephen A. Smith Show. Let me get to another matter now, please. President Trump bid farewell to Elon Musk in an Oval Office event made for the cameras. Trump thanked Musk for his work with Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency, a role created to reduce the size of the federal workforce. The Tesla CEO concludes his government service after four months of leading Doge Musk worked for Trump as a powerful and obviously a special government employee after spending approximately $288 million of his own money to help get the President elected. Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know about the rest of y' all, but. But I just see all of this as nothing more than pomp and circumstance. You know, if. If you're Musk, okay, you spent. Listen, you. You spent anywhere from 119, according to some reports, to 288 million in helping getting President Trump elected. You have to remember that this is the same Musk who once voted for Hillary Clinton, who once. Joe voted for Joe Biden. So him changing course shows how alarming of a direction he saw the country going and when led by the left. Having said that, him departing from Trump, to be honest with you, there's much ado about nothing because where's he going? He literally said he's a friend of Trump. He's going to still be an advisor to Trump. He'll still be making some visits to the White House. Well, ain't that essentially what he was doing? All of his pieces are in place. The personnel that he wanted overseeing Doge are in place. Now, they want to sit up there and they want to brag about some of the cuts that have taken place, some of the money that they've. They've saved American citizens. I'm just looking at some of these stories here, trying to decide which one I want to get into. Like, the American taxpayer has been saved about a thousand and eighty six dollars. Says, according to Doge, Musk and his crew have saved $175 billion so far, an estimated $1086 per taxpayer. Well, has the taxpayer seen that extra dollars in their pocket, must set up there and said, hey, in the end, I think we'll save the government about a trillion dollars. This is a billion and a trillion. Okay, there's 175 billion. He thinks he's going to save them about a trillion dollars. Well, you got about 825 billion to go. Really? How many jobs are going to be lost? We're talking about eradicating waste, fraud in excess, right? How many jobs are going to be crossed? How many. How many federal jobs are going to be lost? How many people are going to end up unemployed. I think these are legitimate questions. I also think that it's much ado about nothing because, listen, Musk wasn't talking about going away until Tesla stock dropped. Remember, in the first quarter last year, there was a 71%. This year, rather, there was a 71% drop in first quarter earnings for Tesla when he announced that he was going to step back from his duties with Doge and ultimately go back to work overseeing his company for Tesla, which is Tesla. One of them, Anyway, stock jumped 20%. So all of these things are the kind of things that I'm looking at and I'm saying, okay, we get it. Your company is losing money. Listen, you really don't have to be here in the White House talking to me in order to oversee this to some degree. And you're no longer gonna be in an official capacity, but you still have the President's ear, which means that whatever you think should be done, the President will probably side with you. And you don't have to answer to Congress, to the Senate, to elected officials, anywhere, because you no longer have this job. Seems to me it gets the best of both worlds. Goes back to Tesla, raises his stock. He's already worth over $424 billion. Richest man in the world. Tesla stock goes up once you return. Okay. Specifically, this stock surge 20%, like I said, after MUX pledged. According to the Business Insider. The news came in the wake of a challenging first quarter for Tesla, which saw a significant drop in profits. We get this. Tesla was losing money. You're going back to work to save your company. Make sure you got competition in China, you got competition in Europe, because they're electric vehicles. They're coming with their own. You recognize that. You got to lock in and zero in. So you ain't gonna be on the job with Doge anymore. But your influence isn't dissipating any way imaginable. So to me, ladies and gentlemen, it was much ado about nothing. It was a press conference to let the world know he's back looking over Tesla instead of being a special employee for the government. So, in other words, our stock can rise again. I don't need to be losing money, but my influence is cemented. It. That's all it is. It's all it is. Now, let's stay in Washington, where yesterday a federal judge extended a temporary order that blocked the Trump administration from revoking Harvard's ability to enroll international students. The extension came after the administration said it would give the university 30 days to challenge the decision. Court documents on Wednesday show the Department of Homeland Security asked Harvard to, quote, submit sworn statements and documents or other evidence to rebut the grounds for withdrawal of certification, end quote. Harvard enrolls students under the Federal Student and Exchange Visitor Program. Just last week, the Trump administration revoked Harvard's ability to enroll foreign students. And then hours later, a US District judge temporarily blocked that effort. Joining me now to discuss the administration's ongoing feud with Harvard University is a national political reporter for the Wall Street Journal who wrote the article the Punch that Launched Trump's War on American Universities. Please welcome to the show Eliza Collins. Eliza, how are you? How's everything?

Eliza Collins (58:18)

Good. Happy to be here.

Stephen A. Smith (58:20)

Thank you so much. Let's get right to it. For those who have not been keeping up with the escalating feud between the Trump administration and Harvard University, Eliza, tell us, how did we get here?

Eliza Collins (58:30)

Well, it really goes back decades, but basically the conservative movement has had issues with universities for a very long time. They have felt that universities have moved leftward. I mean, we saw this with President Nixon. He actually tried to do what Trump is doing now, back with the anti war Vietnam protests. Now his own administration stopped him at that point. But this has been sort of circulating for a long time. There's been tension with conservatives and universities going back decades. Now, in Trump's first term in office, this was on the radar of some of the nationalists in his party. You might remember Steve Bannon, his former advisor, now talk show host. They were talking about this a little bit, but it really launched onto Trump's radar when a, like you said, a punch, a kid got punched. He was literally tabling trying to recruit conservative students at UC Berkeley. He got punched in the face. He showed up on Fox News with a black eye, got in front of Trump, and Trump said, let's do something about this. So conservatives started attempting to basically take on universities. In his first term, he had an executive order that did a little bit of this, the federal funding thing, but it didn't go really anywhere. Trump ended office. And then in the four years in between, conservative think tanks, thought leaders, they started mapping this out and saying, how can we take on universities, not just Harvard, that they feel have moved to the left? The antisemitism argument that we're hearing now, that came onto the scene in 2023 after Hamas attacked Israel in October and then Israel attacked back. The Gaza protests exploded on campuses. And that was when conservatives really saw their moment. They've been sort of laying this groundwork, having tension with universities. Now they say these universities are allowing antisemitism on campus. Trump takes office again. And we've seen this explosion. They're trying to take federal funding, they're trying to ban international students, they're trying to get rid of their tax exempt status. So they're really trying to hit them on all sides. And Harvard's fighting back in court.

Stephen A. Smith (60:45)

So essentially what you're telling us is that this isn't just about Harvard. This is about any university that the Trump administration, the conservatives, the nationalists that are associated with this administration or with the gop, their belief that there are a lot of quote, unquote, liberal universities out there and we need to change the way our youth are being educated. Harvard is just the first stop. Is that an accurate way to depict this?

Eliza Collins (61:10)

It's absolutely an accurate way to depict this. Harvard has become sort of Trump's obsession. Our reporting shows because it's the richest university in the nation. So they have a lot of money. They are able to fight back. The administration has done this to other schools. We've seen Columbia, some other elite universities. They are basically negotiating with the government. They have tried to appeal to what the government is doing. Harvard is not. Harvard is saying, we are not dealing with you on this. We are going to court. So it's a broader strategy from the government. You're absolutely right. To get elite universities, and then ultimately they want to get down to the state level. But Harvard has become sort of the point of the spear on this.

Stephen A. Smith (61:57)

A day or so ago, the General Services Administration directed all federal agencies to explore ways to cut remaining contracts with the university, according to a senior administration official. Is that legal?

Eliza Collins (62:08)

Well, we'll find out. This is all going to end up in court, basically, with the research funding in particular. Congress appropriates government funding that does not come from the president or his executive branch. And so there are a lot of questions about the government restricting funding to universities that has already been allocated. All of these different cases, the international students funding, government contracts, I imagine we will see them all ultimately make it up to the Supreme Court. You talked about this international student ruling. International students can continue to enroll in Harvard for now, but there's a lot of questions, really, about the administration's power and how much power the president and his other agencies have.

Stephen A. Smith (63:00)

Harvard has an endowment worth about $53 billion, if I remember correctly. By far more than any other American university, one would argue, why can't they tap into that as opposed to needing federal assistance or requiring federal assistance? Why would they not just tap into their own funds and be independent so they don't have to worry about needing federal dollars in order to do what they want to do. That way Trump and the administration, the nationalists or anybody else wouldn't have it. So much power.

Eliza Collins (63:28)

Well, they might have to. And I think that's why Harvard, unlike some other universities, actually have some staying power in this fight. You know, $53 billion is an obscene amount of money. But Harvard spends a lot of money and they do have a lot of research. They've said that these government funding cuts will affect things like cancer research. And so they've become really reliant on the federal government, as have a lot of these elite universities for research fund. Another thing is that a lot of these universities make money from international students because those are the students who are generally coming in, they're paying full price, they're not getting scholarships and they're really reliant. And Harvard, I think it's about a quarter of their student body is international. That's a huge chunk. And if they can't get that money, it's not tomorrow that their funding stream runs out. But it is a big deal if they lose their tax exempt status, then they suddenly have to start paying taxes on things like their property, which I imagine Boston area pretty expensive. So I think they spend a lot of money, they have a ton of money. It's not going to happen tomorrow. They have to do things. But there's a lot less hope for schools like maybe UC Berkeley, which is an elite state level institution. If their state funding gets cut off, I think it's a lot harder for them to fight back in the long term, sorry, federal funding.

Stephen A. Smith (64:57)

And clearly people are going to be in panic mode because you got these smaller universities that don't have that endowment base that Harvard has. And as a result of Harvard loses, okay, then everybody loses. That's their probably their mentality. I must ask this goal going back to the international student body that you pointed out exists at Harvard. Conservatives will say those are number because again, you have a lot of people that nationalist view. That's their national perspective. Remember Trump? America first. America First. America first. He never said America only, but he says America first. And people in America who support him take it like America first, last and always. So with that mentality, one would ask the international student body, how does Harvard explain how such a student body is that large as opposed to more American citizens being enrolled in their universities? Do they ever try to discuss that kind of argument? Because it's certainly one that that the folks on the right has made against them.

Eliza Collins (65:52)

Yeah, I Mean, I think we've just seen the Harvard, at least in court, related to these international students. They say these students are, you know, instrumental in making Harvard. Harvard. Harvard, of course, is an elite university. So they have really smart people from around the world. They have incredible athletes. I'm not sure if they've made the exact case saying this is why we have so many. They're not the only school. Most of these Ivy League schools have large populations of international students, as do a lot of these sort of State Ivies, like a UC Berkeley or Michigan. They've just over the years become really reliant. I'm sure a large part of it is their funding. And then, of course, you know, they're bringing in smart students. Now the universe, the government, as you said, sort of this America first agenda. Steve Bannon told me that when he was talking about this idea in Trump 1.0, far before the conversation about antisemitism, he felt like students on American universities were becoming anti American. And so this really goes back exactly what you're saying to that nationalist idea of who's American and who is patriotic. And that is a priority for Trump.

Stephen A. Smith (67:06)

Any idea whether he's in a good position or whether Harvard is in a good position? Who's. Who's got the poll position right now, as they say?

Eliza Collins (67:15)

You know, I'm not a legal reporter, so I can't, I can't guess. I think it's. We have reported at the Wall Street Journal that even if Harvard wins these cases, the damage, at least in some point, is done. Right. If you're an international student, yeah, you can stay right now, but are you going to come back in the fall if it could be revoked, or are you going to try to go somewhere else at home? You know, there's a lot of federal funding that's been cut off. They might get some back, but is it all going to be reimbursed, you know, at the same levels? I think there are a lot of questions, especially for people making decisions. Now, if you're a student who is supposed to go to Harvard in the fall, do you have pause? Maybe not. But especially if you're an international student, it has to be on your radar because you could be sent home at any moment.

Stephen A. Smith (68:03)

Any specific institutions other than Harvard that the, that the administration has targeted, in your estimation?

Eliza Collins (68:09)

Yeah. So we can talk about Columbia a little bit. Columbia University also got demands from the government. And basically, we should be clear, the the government demands on Harvard were pretty extensive. Basically, they said they should have say over who the University hires, who the university admits, who the. The university's curriculum. Basically, the government says, if you're receiving our money, we are. We should have a say in what happens at a university. Now that bucks a long standing tradition of universities getting to do what they want. And that's why Harvard pushes back. Columbia had a little bit less of a list of demands, though. Basically, the government does want a say. And as someone at the DOJ described to me, they said Colombia is playing dead. Colombia is in negotiations with the government, has agreed to do some things. I know one of the requests from the government at Columbia was to ban masks. That was something that we saw students wearing during these protests to disguise their identity. Seems like Columbia agreed to that. So there's a. It's a similar situation at Columbia, though. They are negotiating with the government. Now, we know Trump is. He's obsessed with Harvard in this case. And it's really because Harvard is pushing back in a way that other schools are not. And they have so much money. So Trump feels like what you asked earlier, why do they need our money if they have so much money?

Stephen A. Smith (69:37)

I'm curious to know if you can't answer this, I certainly understand because you're a reporter and I certainly don't want to put you in that kind of position, but I'm curious to know what level of support Trump has from the Jewish community. Because in the aftermath of what you alluded to earlier with Hamas attacking Israel on October 7th a couple years ago. Right. What transpired thereafter. Obviously, Israel has been, you know, after Hamas and there's a lot of Palestinians that people have been viewed as suffering tremendously. And you have pro Palestinian supporters, primarily on college campuses. They're seeing more so than any place else. And Columbia is one of those places. Harvard was another one of those places. You see Berkeley, if I remember correctly, I think was one of those places. You pointed out these kind of things. I'm wondering what role it's perceived that they're playing in pushing Trump or supporting Trump to take these positions against universities, one would argue they've supported the Jewish community, has supported for years. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's an appropriate question.

Eliza Collins (70:44)

Well, we can definitely say that Trump's win in November, he did better across the basically every demographic group, including young people. I think it's really important to say he closed the gap with that. Biden had won young people in 2020, I think it was by like 25 points. Harris won young people by four in 2024 so young people in general of all religions were moving towards Trump. That has emboldened him. Jewish supporters, I think it's, it's a smaller group, so we haven't seen a ton of polling. But we do know that Trump's hard to Hamas. Strong support of Israel did help him with Jewish, especially conservative Jews who are pro Israel. Of course, not all Jews are, as you know, pro the current Israeli government, but those that Jewish section of the population we've seen is more aligned with Trump. I think it's also really important to note that the frustration over Gaza, while there were a lot of progressive voices advocating for Gaza, they didn't show up for Democrats in November. And so in some ways, they actually even helped Trump, even if they didn't support him, because a lot stayed home, a lot voted third party. I live in Arizona. That's a key battleground state. We did some reporting on Arab Americans here. It was amazing how many I talked to who didn't vote at all. Arizona is a state. Trump won it pretty easily this time around by 5%. But in 2020, Biden won it by 10,000 votes. So Michigan, huge Arab American population, where this was an important issue. So Trump was helped by those voters, too, even if they didn't necessarily mean to, because some of them were protesting Harris and the Biden administration's policies. Policies.

Stephen A. Smith (72:42)

Last couple of questions before I let you get on out of here. How soon should we anticipate a decision being made on this matter between the Trump administration and Harvard University?

Eliza Collins (72:51)

Well, there are several different lawsuits. And like I said, I think with Harvard and with a lot of these cases we're seeing with Trump in general on immigration, on government cuts, I mean, these are cases that are making their way through the courts and ultimately probably will end up at the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court has the final say. And these are real questions about how much power the President of the United States and his executive branch have. And so I don't know. You know, each court has to decide to take something up. They have their own timelines. The Supreme Court has all sorts of rules about when they can take cases up. So I think we're, we're months away from decisions. And of course, like that international case is one case, federal funding something else. You know, we're seeing fight over tax exempt status with the irs. I mean, there's all these different fights. So I don't think anything's going to be tied up with a bow, and certainly not all of it at once. I think we can plan for this is going to be going on for a while.

Stephen A. Smith (73:57)

Very last question to you. I've seen various conservatives even lamenting Trump's push towards this issue with Harvard because they talked about it compromising our First Amendment rights, free speech, et cetera. And so you got to wonder about that. I guess the question would be, if Trump were to win this case against Harvard and these kind of changes were to be invoked, what would that mean for universities throughout the country? What's the perception, rather, of what it would mean for those universities and for America as a whole, considering the fact that an administration in the White House could pull off such a feat?

Eliza Collins (74:35)

I mean, I think it would have effects that if what the government was asking to do to Harvard was have a say over who they hire, who they admit, what they research. And so if they're able to win that case and that is implemented at universities across the country, I think we would see a major shift from how things have been for as long as the US has been around. I think it's really important to note that polling shows Americans overwhelmingly oppose cutting medical research and funding from universities. If you ask that question simply. But if you get into details and say, what about doing it for antisemitism on campuses, the issue basically evens out. So basically, half and half would support funding cuts. There is a lot of polling that shows Americans feel, you know, elite universities do not represent them. They feel that college is too expensive. They feel that the value of an educa degree doesn't go as far anymore. So I think not. I think I know that the administration feels they have a lot of pulling and a lot of anger at universities. But there also is that counterpolling that people do not like the idea of medical research in particular, that funding being this is of course, decided in the courts, not by vote, but I think the where the American public is on this issue is important.

Stephen A. Smith (76:06)

Eliza Collins, national reporter for the Wall Street Journal, covering this particular issue with the Trump administration at Harvard University. Outstanding column just the other day in the Washington well Street Journal, the punch that launched Trump's war on American universities. Eliza, thank you so much for coming on the show, taking time out of your busy schedule. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much. And feel free to come back anytime.

Eliza Collins (76:28)

Thanks. That was fun.

Stephen A. Smith (76:29)

That was a fully loaded show. So I don't need to give you anything else. Okay. You got plenty of stuff to soak in and absorb over the weekend. This is Stephen A. Smith signing off. Thank you for staying with me. Really, really appreciate it. Look forward to talking to you you on Monday. Until then, peace and love everybody. Enjoy your weekend. God bless.

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Stephen A. Smith (77:21)

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