← Straight Shooter with Stephen A.
Straight Shooter with Stephen A.
Interview Only: Fox News Host Will Cain and Black Star Network's Roland Martin breaks down Trump vs Musk, and how it impacts American citizens.
00:58:33
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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [00:39]
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- [01:05]
Roland Martin
VGW Group void. We're prohibited by law. 21 + terms and conditions apply.
- [01:13]
Stephen A. Smith
I have two guests, a conservative and a liberal. To break this all down, we'll start on the right with the conservative. He hosts the Will Kane show on Fox News. I believe it is every weekday at 4pm on Fox News. He used to work with me at espn. He's a friend of mine. I love him to death. I haven't seen him in a while. He's crazy. We don't usually agree, but I got love for him. The one and only Will Kane. What's up man? How you doing?
- [01:40]
Will Cain
What do you mean you believe it is at 4pm Eastern time? You damn well better know it's at 4pm Eastern Time. I mean, I've learned, I've learned from the best. If you don't sing your praises, I don't know who will. So let me just say if you, if you don't know, well, you need to join the millions that do. We're setting ratings records over here at 4pm we're rivaling Prime time. So tune in and join Stephen A.
- [02:04]
Stephen A. Smith
Right. Well, listen man, I, I, I've, I've caught, you know, my schedule's busy, but I've caught your show several times because it's you. And I'd love to tell you I'm surprised at the great job you're doing, but I'm not. I love the fact that you got your own show. I think that you're going to eventually be in prime time. I'm making that prediction Personally speaking, I think you should be in prime time already. I'm just going to give you that kind of love. But I'm proud of you, my man. You're getting better. You're. I have to give it to you. Well, let me get right to it, man. Yesterday on your show, you broke down the timeline of the heated feud between Elon Musk and President Donald Trump, saying, quote, this is not a story that we wanted today for America. Is this good or bad for the Republican Party, in your estimation? Will?
- [02:44]
Will Cain
Well, there's no doubt about it that it's bad. There's no doubt about it. This is not just bad for the Republican Party, STEPHEN A. This is bad for America. The only people left snickering today and enjoying the ride are those that wish for the downfall of Donald Trump or think that Elon Musk is the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler. Hitler. And of course, both of those are absurd propositions. I think we have seen something truly remarkable and I've been watching your commentary. I've been watching your, I hope, evolution not towards the right, but towards being in the right over the last several months. And the truth of the matter is when the world's richest man in the world's most powerful man can share the stage, and they did, STEPHEN A. In remarkable fashion, in very generous and humble fashion, when they can share the stage, that in itself is remarkable for America. And I can only hope at the end of this roller coaster, it coasts in for a beautiful ride. I hope that they can make amends and get back on the same team.
- [03:39]
Stephen A. Smith
Will educate my audience as to specifically why has it come to this with their personal relationship? We can speculate, we can read various news reports, but from your understanding, what was the tipping point that pushed Elon Musk over the edge to get to this point where he's been so acerbic and so abrasive towards the President, because I definitely would accuse him of being that towards the President.
- [04:04]
Will Cain
In this particular instance, yeah, Elon Musk looks like he's crashing out. Looks like he's lost it and he's unstable. In this particular episode, the last 24 hours, there's the substance and there's the style. Let's start with the substance. STEPHEN A. It is the most boring, but it's also the most important. Elon doesn't like the big beautiful Bill. Elon has taken it upon himself over the last several months to dig in to the government's finances, dig into every department with, of course, Doge. Look, Elon is a genius. Stephen A. I mean, he's a Thomas Edison level individual that will go down in history as one of the most important men to grace this planet. He simply is. But Elon is also someone quirky, used to getting things done solely sometimes, or at least through his singular vision. And that's just not going to be possible in government. It's certainly not going to be possible in democracy. Democracy is messy and full of people of different opinions, and some of those are even within what people think is a monolith. One party Republicans. But it's not a monolith, it's a mix. So Elon comes in, he sees the dire financial straits of the United States. He knows we can't continue to run these kind of deficits over 6%, 7% of GDP year over year. It's unsustainable, $36 trillion in debt. And he wants to do something about it. And he wishes he had the reins to just get it done. But you don't. You just don't in a democracy. And so he doesn't like the big, beautiful bill. For his part, I do believe that Donald Trump is getting the best possible bill that he can get. And that is because it is messy, as I keep saying, democracy. Of course, Democrats aren't going to participate in anything that reduces the size of government. But even on the right, even among Republicans. Stephen A. You got New York and New Jersey and California Democrats that probably will do something you want, which is institute salt state and local tax deductions to your federal taxes. Guys like you that live in New York and New Jersey or in California, you want that. You don't want to pay the feds for stuff you're having to pay the state of New Jersey. I'm sure I lived up there with you, I'm sure I liked it. But now that I live back home in Texas, I don't want to subsidize your bloated and fat and inefficient government in New York and New Jersey. And that's what I'm doing. I'm subsidizing it when you get to write it off of your federal taxes. But Donald Trump has to deal with it because there are Republicans from New Jersey and New York and California in the Senate, there's Republicans that like parts of the Green New Deal, and it means something to a senator from North Dakota. So the point is, Stephen A. He's gotta make a deal. And that's what Donald Trump does, he makes deals. And Elon Musk doesn't like the deal. So that's the substance. Okay. But real quickly, then there's the style. Okay. And that's important as well. It's the personalities. And I don't know what's going on with Elon. You know, I think he, like I said, is. Is quirky. I don't know Elon. I think I've. I don't even know that we've shaken hands. We've been in the same room once or twice. But, you know, I think he has a grand vision. I appreciate his vision. I think that he is a different kind of dude. STEPHEN A. I really do. And I think it speaks volumes to Donald Trump that not only have they gotten along, but he's welcomed him in and shared the stage and managed to be good partners for America.
- [07:23]
Stephen A. Smith
But in the same breath. Well, we can't sit here and act like Donald Trump has done everything right. I certainly understand. And I side with you from the standpoint that, you know, with your big, with his big, beautiful deal, everything in there, everybody is not going to, like. You have to acquiesce to some of the demands. Like you said, he's about making a deal, whatever it takes to get a deal done and get some of the things that he wants, primarily preserving those 27 tax cuts and making sure they extend to now and they don't get canceled out. The flip side to that, however, is that he brags about having these individuals hiring the very, very best, the greatest innovative minds, people who have the country's interests best and stuff like that. And when we see this kind of erratic behavior from an Elon Musk and we see him and the President of the United States go back and forth, some people would say it's beneath Donald Trump. I happen to believe what Donald Trump said hasn't been that bad against Elon Musk. To me, it's been coming from Elon Musk in terms of the extreme statements that he has made, which I won't repeat. My point is, is that it's still somebody that Donald Trump not only embraced, but empowered. Department of Government efficiency cuts, people lost their jobs, et cetera. And folks, particularly on the left, are looking at this now and saying, see, it's exactly what we warned y' all about. Look at this mess that's going on within the Trump administration. Because no matter which way you slice it, because it's Elon Musk, that is what he is perceived as, because that is what he has been a part of the Trump administration. How do you, what do you say to that?
- [08:50]
Will Cain
First, you won't say, but I Will and I see you're showing some of what Elon Musk had to say on screen. But let's deal with the most salacious and the biggest broadside attack and that that is the reason the Epstein files weren't released is because Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. Well, first of all, it's not breaking news that Donald Trump knew Jeffrey Epstein. It's nothing new or nothing salacious to say. There are records that show he might have been at times flying with Jeffrey Epstein, but there's no evidence there's anything more than that relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And if there were, Stephen, I would suggest to you, I would suggest to you that the Department of Justice under Joe Biden would have, the FBI under James Comey would have aired that stuff against Donald Trump. They did everything possible to take down Donald Trump. And I say this with love. Even you have been talking about the level of lawfare against Trump. So do you think they would have kept that ace of spades in their pocket not and not played that card had they had it against Donald Trump? It's simply unbelievable.
- [09:49]
Stephen A. Smith
Pause. Before you go on, I want to make sure that I'm letting my audience know. I, I think it's egregious to just say something like that without proof. So I'm glad you're touching on it. But I want them to know the reason I haven't done it is because I'm not going to be unfair to Donald Trump like that. That's why I didn't want to do that. That's why I just want to let the audience know that because I think it's irresponsible to just throw that out there the way Elon Musk did. But go ahead.
- [10:11]
Will Cain
Right. Well, I just think it's, and it's okay for us, it's okay for us to discuss it in terms of its lack of credibility. What more it's not the flex that Elon thinks. It is that if he knew that information, he was going to keep it as well under his cap as long as like the spending cuts. So now he doesn't like the spending cuts. So he's willing to expose one of the greatest, salacious, most indicting things you could say about somebody. I just think it shows it has no credibility that particular broadside. Now, to your point about everyone looks at Donald Trump saying he hires the best and the brightest and look at the method it's created. Well, look, you know, it's a little bit like criticizing. It's, I'm trying to think of the right sports metaphor. Stephen A. It's a little bit like criticizing the New England Patriots run, the incredible dynasty put together between Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. And then for us all to think the bigger story is the relationship between Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. So what I mean by that is not necessarily that Elon Musk and Donald Trump put together a historical dynasty, but it is historical to bring these types of figures together. So what I mean, okay, you know this. If I might. Stephen A. You know something about big egos. Not just your own, but others. You've been around a lot of big egos.
- [11:27]
Stephen A. Smith
Yours, Yours too. Damn it. You ain't getting away with that. You too. Go ahead, go ahead, man.
- [11:34]
Will Cain
Our relationship. Our relationship is a testament to the power that sometimes big egos can coexist, get along and even be friends. But don't get, don't get it twisted. That's rare. How often are the world's richest man and the world's most powerful man partners in a shared vision? It is super rare. So you start from a historical point. You can't really think the story is, wow, it didn't last, or it's a mess. It's incredible it ever existed in the first place. Look at Donald Trump literally shared the Oval Office, let Elon Musk stand there for hours on end and commandeered the cameras. I watched those and I thought, man, Donald Trump is not the guy people think he is. He is not the attention hound and the credibility seeker that everybody thinks he is. He's perfectly willing to share the stage. And I think that is historical. It's truly historical. Now posit that, okay, it's messy, it's transparent. Everything's playing out before our eyes and it's not always going to go well. Now posit that against what we've had, not just for the last five years. Stephen A. But I would offer you, through most presidential administrations, highly coordinated, highly produced fake, Fake. Kumbaya. Everybody on the same page, everybody parroting the same spin. And in the end, what do you get? You get something like Karine Jean Pierre three months out of the office of being the biggest spinster.
- [12:53]
Stephen A. Smith
Oh, don't get me started with her.
- [12:55]
Will Cain
I know.
- [12:56]
Stephen A. Smith
Oh, I can't wait to see her. I can't wait to see her. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
- [13:01]
Will Cain
Go ahead, lie. She wasn't willing to spend for Joe Biden. And then three months later, you know what? I'm not a Democrat anymore. That right there could suggest to everybody in America maybe We could use a little more messy transparency instead of manufactured and polished fake Kumbaya.
- [13:19]
Stephen A. Smith
That's a damn good point. And don't get me started with that. You're not even a Democrat anymore and now you out of office, you're out of the White House, and now we gonna profit. Oh, I can't wait to see her. God bless her for selling her book, but I can't wait to see her to ask her about that stuff. Because stuff that she said in the White House is one thing. That was your employer. But then you went on a view after you left the White House and you said some of the same stuff. You could have gave everybody a heads up. Then you didn't do it. So anyway, we'll get back to that another time. You said it's hard to see a path forward for these two, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, to repair their relationship after Musk slammed the President's proposed spending bill. Is, I mean, is this a feud the party created or do you just put it solely on Musk? What are your thoughts about that?
- [14:03]
Will Cain
Well, if the party helped create or fuel this feud, it's that Elon Musk doesn't like what happens when you pour action into the messy democratic process of a bunch of congressmen and senators and get the result that he doesn't like. But the truth is, I think this is more about personalities. Now, normal personalities would say you've crossed the Rubicon. This is irreparable. You accused me of being in league with Jeffrey Epstein and he also endorsed a random user saying impeach Trump and, and, and install JD Vance. He also did that. And for most people that would be a bridge too far. We're not going to fix this. I don't think that's Donald Trump. I'm being real with you, Stephen A. Now, I do know this man somewhat. Where I said I don't know Musk as well. I do know Donald Trump, but you don't have to know him to see this. He's actually forgiving. He actually moves beyond. He doesn't hold grudges. Oh, he'll come hard at you if you go at him. But given time and space and the opportunity to heal, he's shown over and over that he's willing to do so. I mean, J.D. vance one time referred to him as Hitler and J.D. vance is the Vice President of the United States. You have said hard things about Donald Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if you told me right now he's called you. Actually, I'd be Surprised if you said he's never called you. I bet you've heard from Donald Trump, right? And you've said hard things about Donald Trump. He looks past it when he needs to. He's not as sensitive or at least he doesn't hold grudges like you would think. And so I wouldn't put it beyond the realm of possibility that we could see a beautiful big reunion for Musk and Trump.
- [15:35]
Stephen A. Smith
I would tell you this. I've never, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I've never said anything that I owe Donald Trump an apology for. I can tell you that much because I never called him out his name or anything like that. I just don't like the way he behaves. And I think you don't have, you.
- [15:46]
Will Cain
Know what the funny thing is?
- [15:46]
Stephen A. Smith
Hell out.
- [15:47]
Will Cain
You don't have to apologize. You don't have to apologize to be on good terms with Donald Trump. Look at Bill Maher. You don't have to. It's just he's not. The media has created such a caricature of Donald Trump. If you only ever watched CNN or MSNBC or NBC or ABC or cbs, you just have a cartoonish caricature vision of who the man actually is. And you don't know reality.
- [16:06]
Stephen A. Smith
How worried are you for the Republicans in the 2026 Midterms in light of Musk, you know, basically threaten to formulate a third party, basically threatening to finance Democrats the way that he did some Republicans, especially Trump, 2026, 2028 could be in trouble for the right based on all this noise we've been seeing. You concerned about that? You concerned about that, Will?
- [16:29]
Will Cain
I'm not. I'm not. Look, you can do two things at the same time. You can give Elon Musk a ton of credit for the role he played, the money he spent in electing Donald Trump. But I personally think Donald Trump would have trounced Kamala Harris without Elon Musk. And right now, and I wouldn't put it beyond the realm of possibility that Elon Musk does go out there, maybe he does give money to third parties, maybe he even gives money to Democrats. But you, you could give all the money in the world you could give. How about this? I don't want to give you any ammunition, so I'm not going to use the Dallas Cowboys. But you could give all the money in the world to, I don't know, pick your lowest level franchise. And it doesn't going to make, it's not going to make them an overnight champion. And Right now, the problem with the Democratic Party is there's nobody to put money behind. There's just simply no talent on the bench. There's not any in Triple A, there's not any in Double A, and there's certainly not any in the majors. You show me where the biggest level talent is, I might be talking to him. I might be talking to the biggest talent on the bench for Democrats.
- [17:27]
Stephen A. Smith
There you go with just a. Did you go. There you go with your stuff. I will tell you this though. I agree with you as it, as it pertains to a national figure. But when you're talking about some of these congressional districts, when you're talking about some of these districts that the senators are fighting for as well, I think he has an opportunity to make inroads. I think, I think, I don't, I don't know if you can definitively say that the GOP has a strong hold on the House and the Senate in that regard as you sift through this country. He might be able to make some inroads there.
- [17:55]
Will Cain
Yeah, that's fair. It's a slim margin. It's a slim margin in both the House and the Senate. And let's not get it mixed up. The charm and charisma and pull of Donald Trump. Not every politician can even come close to scratching the surface of doesn't matter if they have an R by their name. But it's not just the people. Politics is two things. And you know, one thing I appreciate about and people, I don't want people to think I'm, I'm gratuitously, you know, buttering you up because I have on my program at times criticized you. And whether or not you're aware, I'm sure you're a big boy enough to not care. And politics is two things. And one of them you still have to work on. If any of this stuff about you is real, then there's, there's still, and you admit this holes in your game. It's a combination of two things. It's personality, charm, persuasion and the ability to connect with people. And you have that. You've got that, okay? And Donald Trump has that. But you also have to have policy. You have to have things people care about. And right now the Democratic Party has no policy. Stephen A. That even an Elon Musk funded run presents to me a real threat. Now that doesn't mean he couldn't pick off a House seat or two or maybe a Senate seat or two. And it is a slim margin. But the biggest issue for The Democrat Party right now isn't money, and it is, in part, personality. But the biggest problem is the policies and ideas. They're simply not just bad. Stephen A. They're really, really unpopular.
- [19:23]
Stephen A. Smith
Let me say this to you on a personal note. There's been plenty of times where people have come up to me and they said, did you see Will Cain? He's criticized you. I said, no, and I don't give a damn. And here's the reason why, because I'm quite sure it was Will Kane disagreeing with something that I said. He's not attacking me or my character. That's the relationship we have. I don't care if he disagrees with me, and that's all.
- [19:41]
Will Cain
I've always been that way, and you're the same way. This is one of the reasons we've gotten along. I would not say something into a microphone or behind your back that I would never say to your face, and that is like, our relationship is not predicated on liking everything each other have to say. The relationship is predicated on the integrity of telling one another where and where we do not agree or disagree.
- [20:05]
Stephen A. Smith
That's right. And where we stand. And that's why we got love for one another. Let me ask you this question. What's. You've heard that Steve Bannon, you know, obviously a Trump loyalist, somebody that used to work in the White House, no longer does so, but he basically called for Elon Musk to be deported. He said, quote, they should initiate a formal investigation of his immigration status because I am of the strong belief that he is an illegal alien and he should be deported from the country immediately. Now, see, Will, this is one of the problems right. This is one of the problems right here, because I had somebody look it up, and I was informed. Elon Musk is a naturalized US citizen. He became a citizen in 2002 after moving from South Africa to Canada in 1989 and then to the United States in the early 1990s. His journey included various visas, culminating in US citizenship through the legal naturalization process. As a US citizen, Musk is protected under the Constitution and cannot be deported without due process. Deportation of a naturalized citizen is extremely rare. If I know that, damn it, Steve Bannon knows that. What do you think when you hear somebody like Steve Bannon say those words?
- [21:20]
Will Cain
Well, first of all, that's a question. And. And I. I don't know if you two have talked. I think that you have, and that's in the past.
- [21:27]
Stephen A. Smith
Yes, I interviewed him.
- [21:28]
Will Cain
Yeah, I thought that was right. Yeah. And that's a question for Steve Bannon. So I'm glad you looked that up, because I was wondering that last night I saw what Steve had to say. And I'm gonna say a couple things. Steve is incredibly smart and, and. And Steve is worth listening to. And there are things that Steve and I are definitely on the same page about, and I have no problem saying, like, I believe in the United States of America and the culture and the form of government and the protection of the United States of America. And Steve, I believe, is very skeptical of anyone who he thinks might question those foundational elements of the United States of America. I wondered last night the same thing that you just educated me on. I wondered, what is Elon's. What is Elon's citizenship status? And I'm glad you clarified for me and the audience. He's a citizen of the United States, and you can't deport a citizen of the United States, to my knowledge. And I would love to hear Steve's argument for why Steve's always been skeptical of Elon. And I don't think Steve's skepticism of Elon, by the way, is unfair. I think he's skeptical towards all of tech, towards everyone that thinks that a country is like a company ready to be optimized. That's not what a country is. We're not a business. We're not here simply to get rich and wealthy. We are here to be what we have been throughout our history, and that is the world's leader in way of life. And this is where we can always diverge into conversations about where we've fallen short and our mistakes that we've made throughout our history, all of which are true and need to be acknowledged. But still, we're special. We're special on the face of humanity. And I'm with Steve in protecting that above all.
- [23:01]
Stephen A. Smith
I hear you on that. What is special about the big beautiful Bill, in your estimation that the country should look forward to, that the country should, like, since Elon Musk has spoken against it. What about those who have spoken for it? What are they saying that's big and beautiful about it?
- [23:18]
Will Cain
Okay, that's a tough question. I'm not sure there is a lot that is special. Do you ever get to special by compromise? Do you ever get to special by the messy issue of making a deal? But I do think there are very smart people who are singing its praises. I'll give you two. I think Stephen Miller is brilliant. I think Scott Besant, Treasury Secretary, is brilliant. And they lay out three things Tax cuts, waste and fraud cuts, not to the level that Elon wants, but waste and fraud cuts and codifying the protection of the border. Those are the three things they like. Now on the most important thing is if you're going to have deficits but you want to try to reduce those, the argument is the way you do that is growing your economy and the tax cuts grow the economy. Besant believes we can run deficits at 3% by growing the economy 3% and by cutting taxes, we supercharge the economy into growth of 3%. That's the way you reduce deficits, even if it's not the cuts that someone like Elon Musk wants through Doge. There's one more thing, Stephen. If you're really in the business of educating your audience, it's a little bit boring. But you have to understand a reconciliation bill is not a budget bill. It's not an appropriations bill. There's only so much you can do through reconciliation. There are other places to make cuts. Two of them are rescission. That's what the President says to the Senate. I want you to make these cuts. They go back and they formalize them. There's one right now for 9 billion, which is not enough and that's tiny in the grand scope of things. And the other is appropriations and all those great people you mentioned that Trump hires Peg. Seth. That's where I've taken issue with you. By the way, Stephen A. My friends, Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense, Sean Duffy of Transportation, on and on, every secretary of every cabinet looks for cuts, asks congressman, this is the budget that I need. Institute these cuts and that's what we'll get through appropriations. It's not the end of the story just because it's not in the one big beautiful bill.
- [25:14]
Stephen A. Smith
Understood. And by the way, I'm going to save your platform to bring up Pete Hegseth when you call me on your show. You, you, you do that. I got no problems with the man. I'm not. I haven't land based the man at all. I've just talked about what his, his ascension represented. There was a bigger deal. If I saw Pete Hegseth, I'd walk up to him and say to him, I have nothing against you. You served our country with honor and distinction. I got no problems with you, my man. I was just talking about what it represented. I mean, damn. That's all I'm saying. But we'll talk about that another day. My last question to you because I know you got to go and I got to go as well if this Elon Musk and Trump fiasco brouhaha doesn't simmer down. If it gets uglier. You've already said this is not good, right? How bad could it possibly get for Trump and the administration and our government if Elon goes nuclear, per se, and somehow gets even worse than he has already gotten? Especially considering the fact that Trump acknowledged all the access that he had throughout the White House, access to files and things of this nature. What the hell of that? What if that happens, Will Kane? What if Elon Musk gets uglier?
- [26:26]
Will Cain
I think there's limited damage for Trump. There's a floor on the amount of damage that Musk can do to Trump. And there is much more potential loss for Musk. First of all, must does have government contracts. I don't think he cares as much about EV tax credits. He's incredibly passionate about space and NASA and SpaceX. And he stands to lose on one of his biggest passions should he make a complete enemy of the President of the United States. I also think Musk will run into a credibility issue if he keeps doing things like the accusations around Jeffrey Epstein or impeachment and Donald Trump. Look, the American people voted for Donald Trump. They didn't vote for Elon Musk. That doesn't mean there's a lot of people that might have been persuaded to his side because of the influence of Musk. But in the end, he is the man that's elected to the President of the United States. And I think there's a floor on the amount of damage. Look, how about this, Stephen? A name? This is you and me and other sports metaphors standing at the plate. We're batting against, I don't know, we're batting against Garrett Cole. And he's thrown every pitch. He's got what's left in the end. We're hitting everything Donald Trump has seen. Every pitch. Every single pitch. Are you telling me Musk has one that hasn't already been thrown? I think there's a floor in how much damage.
- [27:42]
Stephen A. Smith
I'm saying we don't know that, Will. The man is worth over $450 billion. And he got close to Trump and close to the White House administration. I'm saying I don't know. I mean, I get the point. It's a legitimate question that you've asked, albeit rhetorically. I'm saying the. The possibilities of a potent answer might be out there. It might be something we haven't seen. We don't know what this guy.
- [28:07]
Will Cain
Right? We don't for the record, just for the record, as we're putting this down, just prepare yourself, because more likely as an outcome is, you have one big, beautiful makeup session and these two guys get back together.
- [28:20]
Stephen A. Smith
I got you the one and only Will Kane. The will Kane show, 4:00pm Eastern Standard Time. Fox News got ratings already rivaling prime time, doing his thing. And I'm gonna come on your show soon because I owe you. So I've been on the road the last two damn months. I owe you. I owe you an appearance on your show, man. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy.
- [28:40]
Will Cain
All right. Thanks, Stephen.
- [28:40]
Roland Martin
A.
- [28:41]
Stephen A. Smith
All right, buddy. You take it easy. Interesting perspective right there from Will Kaine. Obviously, he thinks it's a relationship that could be amended. Things could get better. Who knows? Donald Trump has forgiven people before. So the likelihood is that he'd be willing to forgive a man worth about $450 billion that donated over $200 million to his campaign and that of other GOP members. This is what Donald Trump is capable of doing. After all, the president, Vice President of the United States of America once said some very incendiary things about him. And he's the vice President of the United States of America, said some really ridiculous things about Donald Trump in the past, and Donald Trump forgave him. So that's what. That's what their position is now. Let's hear from the other side. My next guest has been called the voice of Black America. He hosts the daily political show Roland Martin, unfiltered. He's been here many times. He's a friend. Got love for him even when he gets after me. Okay, I'm talking about the one and only Roland Martin in the house. What's up, big time? How are you, man? How's everything going, bro? What's up?
- [29:40]
Roland Martin
I. I wore the coldness and the bonus fraternity shirt today just for you.
- [29:47]
Stephen A. Smith
There you go. There you go with yourself. I'll leave it alone. I'll leave it alone. Because we got Musk and president.
- [29:53]
Roland Martin
That's the flyway signal.
- [29:57]
Stephen A. Smith
I got you. I got you. Listen, with Trump and Musk, what were your thoughts when you saw this bat unfolding everywhere yesterday?
- [30:07]
Roland Martin
Well, we all. We knew it was going to happen. When you take two narcissistic, egotistical, deranged individuals, they are going to clash. It was inevitable. Donald Trump can't stand anybody that gets more attention than he does. And here's a guy who gets more attention, owns his own social media platform. We know truth social is a joke. And he's got way more money than Donald Trump. They were going to class and so I was sitting here watching chickens coming home to roost and I was really, this is really, this is how I was operating all day. I was sitting here going, okay, what's next? What's next?
- [30:53]
Stephen A. Smith
That's what you were doing?
- [30:55]
Roland Martin
Yeah, because it was beyond laughable to watch these two idiots going back and forth. And it shows you that Donald Trump, I do not call him president. He is the twice impeached, criminally convicted felon con man in chief. And it goes to show you that he does not have the demeanor nor the authority to sit in that Oval Office chair. They can yell all they want to about Joe Biden and his mental acuity and his cognitive decline, but guess what? You didn't see a grown man who occupies the Oval Office acting like a spoiled little brat going back and forth with a, with a donor.
- [31:38]
Stephen A. Smith
Well, let's talk about that donor for a second. That donor also happened to be the head of Doge Department of Government Efficiency who I facilitated billions of. Yeah, but, but you talk about, you know, they, what did they say? $1.75 billion in waste.
- [31:56]
Roland Martin
That's what they claim. They saved that. But then when you actually, when you actually get what actually came down, most even Republicans say it was barely 100 billion in so called savings.
- [32:13]
Stephen A. Smith
No, I only bring that up to ask this question, Roland. He wasn't just somebody mouthing off. He's a guy that's worth over 100 or $450 billion. He's an individual that was empowered by Donald Trump himself and the Trump administration. Obviously some of the decisions that he made led to federal employees being cut. Let's make sure we recognize that. So he's been harmful to some degree. So with all of that being said, how bad do you think this situation could deteriorate into? Because it doesn't seem like it's just back and forth banter or whatever. It seems like some real damage could be done. I'm wondering, what damage do you think could be done to Trump? What damage do you think will be done to the country in light of what's going on right now, if anything at all? That's what I'm asking.
- [33:00]
Roland Martin
First of all, it's not going to be damage to the country because let's just be perfectly clear, if you're Elon Musk from a business standpoint, your business doesn't exist without federal dollars. And I broke this thing down on my show, like, I love these people, I love these black People talk about man, or we got Duke for sale, do for sale, pull ourselves up by bootstraps. And I said, you can see them 32 billionaires, 32 corporate CEOs who went to Saudi Arabia with Trump. So Elon Musk, SpaceX, Tesla, when you talk about the loans that he got the contract. So he needs, in fact, his company Tesla loses money last year without the government. If the government doesn't buy the vehicles, his vehicles, he loses money last year, so he needs the government. Okay, his tax breaks that he gets from states and from cities as well. Now Donald Trump, what do you lose? He can't afford to have a high profile person who can. We know who has manipulated the Twitter algorithm to turn that against him. And so he was greatly aided by that. And so when you have these two people clashing and then it's dominating the news cycle, all these things happen. So don't be shocked to see Republicans and other donors trying to broker a peace deal a day taunt because you've got Speaker Mike Johnson trying to get this big, beautiful bill, which one of my panelists call a bbl, a big beautiful lie, going through the Senate and then back to the House. And so it's imperiled. So that's what's happening right now. And so this becomes the centerpiece. Oh, it's going to be great chaos. And I'm just going to sit here and enjoy my popcorn.
- [34:46]
Stephen A. Smith
Well, listen, I think you're going to do more than that because you are a preeminent voice in America, not just black America, as far as I'm concerned. I love talking to you and I, and I know that you ain't going to just sit back eating your popcorn, even though you clearly eat my brother. You do eat, man, you big boy. But here's my question to you. How do you feel? We know how the right feels about this big, beautiful deal. What's your issue with the big, beautiful deal? Educate my audience to the specifics about why the deal may be, may not be big and beautiful at all in your mind and in the minds of liberals.
- [35:18]
Roland Martin
First, first and foremost in the position that I take is I've never called myself a liberal or conservative. I call myself a voter. I, and I look at this purely through a, I have to look at this through a human lens. The people that will greatly benefit from this bill are the richest people in the country. The people that will be hurt are the poorest. When I listen to, look, I may, I am a Christian. The Catholic church that I grew up in was Founded in my grandparents living room. My wife is an ordained minister. I'm a Christian book author. And when I look at evangelicals who are silent, who are saying nothing about the massive cuts and how it's going to impact the poor, that is greatly offensive to me. That's why I stay with Bishop William Barber and Repairs of the Breach and the Poor People's Campaign and their efforts against this. When you look at the cuts to SNAP benefits, when you look at the cuts to $880 billion to Medicaid, when you look at the impact when it comes to women having children, all of that is real. To what to be able to make permanent the Trump tax cuts in 2017 that benefited the richest in the country. Please, is that actually what they need? When you look at this, that's what it speaks to. When you've got Republicans who are voting on a bill that prevents states from regulating AI for at least a decade. I'm sorry, how did that get in the bill? The other day I was reading that there's an insertion in the bill that will require banks to pay back crypto investors before they pay back depositors, if there's an issue with that bank. But when you start looking at this bill and looking at all of the perks in there for the rich and how it hurts the poor, it's a problem. If you cut 880 billion for Medicaid, you're going to be impacting rural hospitals. You know, that's going to hurt a lot of the white folks who voted for Trump in rural America. Not just rural black folks in black was in rural America, but rural white folks. We saw what happened when this took place in North Carolina. I'd never forget Bishop William Barber was at a parade and his redneck with a Confederate flag draped over his shoulder walked up to Bishop Barber and he said with a tear in his eye, bishop, you know, I got to be honest with you, I don't agree with a whole lot, but thank you for trying to save our hospitals. And so the problem we have is the brokers. Sickest places in America are the reddest. So people always talk about black folks vote against their interests. How about all these white conservatives who are voting against their interests? They're cutting education, they're cutting health care, they're cutting government benefits. Who takes advantage of that more than anybody else? Broke white people in America? West Virginia, Mississippi, Arkansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia. So those folks should be up in arms because trust me, they are going to be severely hurt if this bill gets through Congress.
- [38:27]
Stephen A. Smith
One could easily argue based on everything you just broke down, that it should be easy for people in this day and age to see the light and to, you know, rally up against what we're seeing from this quote unquote, big beautiful bill and what we're seeing from the Trump administration thus far. Nevertheless, when you talk to the folks on the right, they seem to be not worried at all about folks on the left because they accused the votes on the left for not having any kind of vision for America whatsoever. Talking about the Democratic Party ain't talking about Roland Martin, they're talking about the Democratic Party. What do you say to that? Do you believe that this is an opportunity for the Democrats to pounce on the, to capitalize off of, to gain regain some seats in the House and the Senate? Or is this one of those situations where you think that the Democrats will miss the boat and drop the ball and not take advantage of this particular moment where Trump and the GOP seem a bit more vulnerable?
- [39:19]
Roland Martin
Well, here's what you're seeing right now. First and foremost, the 2026 election is a long way away. And so what you have to do is, and I've been telling people, that's why I don't waste breath on 2028, even right now, 2026. I focus in 2025. You've got state races happening. You've got gubernatorial races in Virginia, you've got MAGA Lieutenant Governor Winston Sears, a black woman running against former Congresswoman Spanberger. On the Democratic side, the Democrats right now control the House and the Senate. If they control, if they keep control of the House, Don Scott, my Alpha Brother Plagia, Texas A&M Powell, McGrawn remains Speaker of the House. Louise Lucas remains in control of the money in the Senate. If Democrats control the Governor's mansion, they now have the trifecta. And now they can actually pass a deal that will then enshrine the return of voting rights for the formerly incarcerated. So that's a perfect example. Now, New Jersey, their gubernatorial primaries on Tuesday, Newark Mayor Ras Baraka is running. Then you go, it's a very blue state. But that's right now. Now what then happens after they got a mayoral election in New Orleans. We've seen mayoral elections in other places around the country. So look, you saw a black Democrat beat a white Republican in Omaha, Nebraska and that person was a two term incumbent. So you've seen where Republicans have actually lost some seats. Here's what Democrats have to do. You can't just say Trump is full of crap. Which he is. You can't say the Republicans are all about the rich, which they are. I mean the facts are the facts. You also have to lay out what your agenda is. And if you look at polling data, polling data shows that a lot of people are not happy at all with national Democrats. But when you start going down ballot, that changes. So what has to happen right now is you're going to see for 26 where you're going to have individual candidates. Do I believe Democrats are going to take back the House? The answer is yes. Republicans only have a three or four seat majority. But so you're going to have individual.
- [41:25]
Stephen A. Smith
You think the Democrats going to take back the House? You think the Democrats go take back the House?
- [41:29]
Roland Martin
Yes. Okay. Right now.
- [41:30]
Stephen A. Smith
Go ahead.
- [41:31]
Roland Martin
You have some, you have Republicans, you have Republicans who are in purple seats, districts that Biden won that they are very concerned about losing what you have now. And Democrats are doing very smart by going to Republican congressional districts and holding town halls because the Republicans don't want to hold the town halls for fear of getting cussed out by their own voters. So they should be doing a lot more of that. But you also have to be articulating what is your agenda. Frankly, Senator Chuck Schumer, the Senate minority leader has been very weak on this. I haven't heard a lot. You see a little bit more from a Democratic House leader, Hakeem Jeffries. His problem is he doesn't have, he can't do much. Schumer could literally stop appointments. They can stop. They can. You can do a lot more with the Senate rules. You can in the House. What the House has to do, what Jeffries has to do and get his caucus to be doing, they got to be far more vocal. And as Congresswoman Maxine Waters said on my show last night, she said we should be taken to the streets leading protests, doing sit ins because you have to raise awareness of what is happening. When you talk about the destruct, the destructive path that we're seeing. Do you know right now, Stephen A. They are threatening with the shutdown of Education Department that is going to impact a program I had them on last night where first generation students, mostly people of color, they will be losing those benefits. The program is $1.2 billion. It is going to impact more than a half a million first time college students. So don't you think we would want first generation folks being able to reach the American dream? They're going to cut that program out if they shut down the Department of Education. That's the brain dead Stuff that happens. And the hard part is that when it's being talked about. That's why I can't watch these cable networks because they talk about process. Process. No, on my show I talk about real people, how a regular person is going to be impacted. Your students, student loans. We're talking about mothers, fathers, single dad, single moms. So we have to talk about policy that impacts the regular person. As my man, the late Joe Madison and said, you got to put it where the goats can get it. And Democrats.
- [43:59]
Stephen A. Smith
You know how many times I use that? You know, have you had. If you've heard, if you've watched me on First Take. I've used that line several times. You know, crediting the great, the late, great Joe Master God restaurant. So give it to them where the goats can get it. No question about that. Real quick answer to this question. What should folks prefer? Like whether it's the Democrat or the Republican Party, what should the folks prefer? More seats in the House or more seats in the Senate? If you had to get one, particularly with these midterms coming up over a year from now, which one would you prefer rolling to have, the House or the Senate?
- [44:30]
Roland Martin
No, Senate. The reason the Senate, because the Senate is the one that confirms federal judges. Those are lifetime appointments. So that always a Senate over the House. The problem is the map doesn't benefit Democrats, it benefits Republicans. When you look at the seats are going to be open now, Republicans are desperate to get a strong Republican to run against Senator John Ossoff in Georgia. They want to take that seat. Governor Brian Kemp has already announced he's not running. They thought he was going to be the best choice. Democrats should really be focusing like a laser on Thom Tillis in North Carolina. And if they do that, they better take their asses to the black belt in North Carolina, which is east North Carolina. Vice President Kamala Harris made a huge mistake. So did President Joe Biden. Democrats keep doing this. They keep going to western North Carolina. You split the North Carolina map. They always go west. Charlotte Mecklenburg County, Raleigh, Durham. But guess what? The votes are in Black Belt in east North Carolina. So you got that going on as well. You've got potentially Democrat could run against Susan Collins in New Hampshire, but the map favors Republicans. So the likelihood Democrats have a better shot at retaking the House than they do the Senate, but they could pick up some gains. And again, Republicans, they want to take OSAP off out in Georgia. And so I can tell you right now, put a number on it, you're going to see minimum, minimum 150 million, 200 million spent in Georgia alone to take Senator OSAV off. He knows that and he's preparing for it. And Democrats got a gird for that battle.
- [46:08]
Stephen A. Smith
Let me get to a subject near and dear to me, because I only got you for a few more minutes, and I wanted to get this out of the way. Back In January of 2024, I was one of the first to say on this very show that I thought Joe Biden was too old to serve a second term. It wasn't his age. It was what I was seeing. And of course, I got blasted. You were one of the people that blasted me. Yes. My man Roland Martin got on me, ladies and gentlemen. Now Jake Tapper has the book out Original Sin with Alex Thompson. I'm sure you've read about that, talking about the president's, the former president's decline, per se. Anything you want to say about that, Roland? Ma. And the fact that, you know now people are looking at. You got Karen Jean Pierre coming out with her book, and she wants to lead the Democratic Party, and now she's saying she's a. She's an independent. And all we're going to hear about is some of the things that we thought we were seeing with the human eye from President Joe Biden. What do you want to say about any of that, Roland Martin, while I got you on this show, it is unfiltered here, too, by the way, so feel free.
- [47:12]
Roland Martin
First thing, I don't give a damn about Jake Tapper Al Thompson's book. I really don't. I don't really care. Here's the reality here that I would say, and this goes to any politician, and we've actually seen this. If you look at the last 10 politicians that have died in office, eight of them have been Republican. Excuse me, eight of them have been Democrat. We just saw Congressman Jerry Connolly, who ran for reelection. His cancer came back. We saw my brother, loved him dearly. Houston, former Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner, who ran to replace to take the seat of Congressman Shimmer Jackson Lee, who ran herself and then later died of pancreatic cancer. And so politicians need to be honest, and people around them need to be honest. Sometimes it's time to go. You can actually leave with dignity and grace. And my concern is that like the images of Robert Byrd and Strom Thurmond being wheeled around and held up, I mean, we know what those images look like. And so I hope politicians need to be honest to learn to let go of power. People around them also have to have to actually Be honest. Do I believe, do I believe that Joe Biden was an effective president? The answer is yes. But here's the issue which you're talking about. People are raised. The American presidency is not just about how you can make decisions in an office out of the way. It's also about the projection of power. It's also about how you.
- [48:48]
Stephen A. Smith
I totally agree.
- [48:49]
Roland Martin
It's also about, I mean, people. People don't understand how much the presidency. It's really about that what Americans want. And he was one of the biggest races of all time. But the reality is what Americans want. Americans want John Wayne in the Oval Office. They want. When the American President walks in, they want to see one of the reasons why we've always elected Paul president. People don't understand how these things are impact. So part of the issue for President Joe Biden was his. The appearance of being feeble, taking his time, mumbling. We know he also was a stutterer. And that image doesn't fit the image of how Americans see a president. We know Trump is nuts and crazy. People like, he's brash. He does this here. And even though he says crazy stuff all the time and me doesn't focus on. He is all about the image of strong, tough vigor. And that's what we have to recognize. And that was a huge stumbling block for people around Biden and for him and Jill as well. And they didn't see it. And whether he likes it or not, they can get mad all they want to with being forced out. And it was an awful three weeks. But that debate was hugely problematic and folk lost confidence. And guess what? When people lose confidence, whether you are the American people or a husband and a wife, or whether you are a player in your coach, Tom Thibodeau, guess what? When the people lose confidence in you leading, you can't. You can't.
- [50:29]
Stephen A. Smith
Rollin. I got to tell you, this show, I got to tell you this before I get on out of here, I got to tell you this. My problem with the Democratic Party right now, what I'm seeing is I see. I like what I'm a fan of Westmore, Maryland. I think that Josh Shapiro should have been a VP selection waltz. That's my personal. That's my personal opinion. And we know that we've got governors from the Democratic Party that can run for office that could possibly that likely do a hell of a job. I don't see anybody on the left having a national presence to win an election. I know you ain't thinking about 2028, but I'm bringing it up now because I'm thinking, I'm saying, I'm just. I'm saying that. I know you didn't want to bring up 20, 28. You said you didn't want to talk about it.
- [51:16]
Roland Martin
So let me unpack that. Let me unpack that.
- [51:18]
Stephen A. Smith
I'm just. I'm just. I'm just looking. Go ahead. Please, go ahead.
- [51:21]
Roland Martin
All right. Study the last 40 years. The last 40 years, very few individuals who become president have a national presence. So again, let's take this thing back. Reagan runs for. Reagan becomes the governor of California. Okay?
- [51:38]
Stephen A. Smith
Governor.
- [51:39]
Roland Martin
He runs for president. He runs for president and he loses. Okay? Carter was the governor of Georgia. He wins. Reagan wins in 80, after being the governor of California, ran for president, loss. George H.W. bush is the only one. Yet a long time ago, remember, he was a member of Congress. He was vice president. You go to 90, then you go Bill Clinton, governor of Arkansas. He gave an awesome speech at the Democratic national convention. In 88, people thought his career was dead. He wins the presidency in 92. What happens in 2000? Texas Governor George W. Bush. Obama was a state senator. And trust me, the only reason all those bills got passed, they credit him, that was because of Senate President Emil Jones. So he was a state senator, who becomes a U.S. senator. So the reality is the people that become president, they never have a national presence two, three years out that actually bills when they announce. And then you begin to run nationally. That's just.
- [52:40]
Stephen A. Smith
But hasn't that changed? Hasn't that changed? But. But has it. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying, hasn't that changed? People keep talking about the climate. We never thought. There's no way in hell with the years of Gary Hart and John Edwards and all this stuff, there's no way on earth that anybody ever thought that a guy like Donald Trump would be the President of the United States. But here he is, not just once, but twice. And so when you look at it from that standpoint and you see the maga, right, and the influence they appear to have, doesn't it need to be something a little bit different in order for the Democrats to reclaim their position?
- [53:13]
Roland Martin
No, no, because the reality is Trump is an aberration. One, he was. He was created by Jeff Zucker at NBC with the Apprentice, that false notion. He's also created by New York tabloids. Okay? Only reason we even knew about Donald Trump, because they kept putting in the media. Steven. I'll tell you point blank, Stephen, when I was at cnn I'd never forget he, Wolf Wilson was interviewing him and I went to the one of the bookers, Stephanie Katubi. I was like, why the hell y' all got him on? And oh, whenever he's on, he does great rating. I said, but I said, he's full of crap. And actually I was awful. You got to trip out with this. This is no lie. I was on with Heidi Phillips on cnn. We were talking about it. And that's why this is what I said. And I wish my folks at CNN will find a clip to send it to me. I said, anytime Donald Trump comes on cnn, we should run a crawl at the bottom that said for entertainment purposes only. The executive vice president of cnn, Ken Jout, sent me an email saying, don't be critical of Trump when he's coming on our air. Donald Trump was a media creation. You can't find any other person that the media, national media, newspapers, magazines would prop up. So the reason Trump is so different is he didn't have to go a normal route because national media created Donald Trump. And so if you look at from 2011 when he was flirting for running, he runs in 16, that was five years. He had already had this national Persona that was already created. So he is a media creation. There's nobody else the media has elevated in that way who I believe can do what he has done in running for the Oval Office.
- [54:57]
Stephen A. Smith
Before I let you get on out of here, you heard Steve Bannon call for Elon Musk to be deported. How do you feel about that?
- [55:04]
Roland Martin
South Africa don't want his ass. You know what? Here's the deal. Sure. Send him to El Salvador again. Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon. Also his credit, he called this and, and he saw what was going on there because Steve Bannon was. Eli was Elon Musk. Support Elon Musk. Trump ran him out as well because he was getting too much attention. And so again, it's hilarious to see what's going on. Bannon is an anti globalist. He thinks that that's what Musk is. I'm more concerned about. And I got this problem to stop. Now. ProPublica had an amazing article Stephen Al sending to you where the Trump administration was pressuring African nations to sign contracts with Elon Musk. Starlink Gambia was like, absolutely not. But they were pressuring that small nation. And that's what Trump did to the South African president when he was in an Oval Office. And so this administration was using the power of the United States Oval Office in order to drive business to Elon Musk. Hopefully all of that now stops since these two have fallen out. But that to me was a shameful thing that a lot of people didn't talk about. I had the Republic, the reporter for ProPublica on the show. And again, African nations were being pressured by Trump's team to give starlink contracts to Elon Musk. That was foul. So, hey, send to El Salvador. So send the Venezuela.
- [56:32]
Stephen A. Smith
So. So my last question to you would be this stuff three times. I know I ain't that true. Because. Because I'm with you. Because I'm with you. Last question, I swear. Would. Would this stuff with Musk and Trump, is it going in the end, is it going to benefit the Democrats?
- [56:55]
Roland Martin
It will. It will. It can't hold on. It can benefit Democrats if what it does is it. It would Musk's criticism and if he uses his voice in Twitter and platform to keep exposing the negative elements. There are a lot in this bill that's going to create pressure on Republicans to vote for it. You already got to remember they're trying to pass the reconciliation. They need a majority of the votes. You've got four or five Republicans who've already said, I'm not supporting this bill. Senator Ron Johnson, hardcore mag out of Wisconsin, was trashing it. Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, both states that voted for Trump. So if all of a sudden, if he starts saying, look at this crap, look at this crap, look at this crap. And if he keeps saying how this is going to increase the national debt, yeah, it can be problematic. So if I'm Democrat, every single. I'm doing a David Letterman Top 10 list. If I'm, if I'm Speaker Jefferson, Senator Schumer, I'm getting me a David Letterman Top 10 list. These are the worst things today in the big, beautiful bill because you have to educate, enlighten, and inform people. All we hear is, big, beautiful bill, massive bill. The average person, Stephen, ain't sitting here breaking this bill apart. And you're not getting that on cnn, MSNBC and Fox. So the Democrats should be doing that. And what that does is put pressure. Oh, did y' all know this was in it? And this and this. Now call your congressman, call your senator. That has to happen. And so Musk could actually do that if he starts doing that with Twitter. Yeah, no, call it X. Then it could be a huge problem for Republicans to pass this bill. So, yeah, this bill could very well die.
- [58:55]
Stephen A. Smith
Appreciate the education, appreciate you always educating me. Appreciate you getting on me when you like that, because I kind of love it. I kind of love it, guys. It doesn't bother me. I. I know you got love for me, even though you don't want to admit it half the time. I appreciate you, big boy. I appreciate it, man. Thanks a lot, man.
- [59:10]
Roland Martin
The white suit you had on in.
- [59:11]
Stephen A. Smith
Oklahoma City, it was pretty damn fly. Stop acting like it wasn't fly. Come on, bro. That was pretty damn fly like that. Come on.
- [59:19]
Roland Martin
I was like, damn. I was like, steve, they look like Benny Hinn.
- [59:27]
Stephen A. Smith
Man. Get out of here, man. I talk to you later. The one and only Roland Martin. Roland Martin, unfiltered on YouTube. Don't miss it. The voice of black America. Appreciate you, big bro. Love you, man. Thanks a lot.
- [59:42]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [60:50]
Stephen A. Smith
This is an iHeart podcast.