Interview Only: Stephen A reacts to Mark Kriegel's book "Baddest Man: The Making of Mike Tyson"

Summary

The Stephen A. Smith Show: Detailed Summary of Interview with Mark Kriegel on "Baddest Man: The Making of Mike Tyson"

Release Date: June 4, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Stephen A. Smith Show, host Stephen A. Smith engages in an insightful conversation with Mark Kriegel, an Emmy award-winning television broadcaster, journalist, and New York Times bestselling author. Kriegel discusses his latest work, "Baddest Man: The Making of Mike Tyson," delving deep into the life and legacy of the legendary boxer Mike Tyson. This interview offers listeners a nuanced perspective on Tyson beyond the well-known public persona, shedding light on his humanity, struggles, and transformation.

Mark Kriegel’s Journey with Mike Tyson

Timestamp: [01:12]

Stephen A. Smith introduces Mark Kriegel, highlighting his extensive background in sports journalism and biography writing, including notable subjects like Pete Maravich, Joe Namath, and Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini. The conversation begins with Kriegel recounting his early interactions with Mike Tyson as a young reporter for the New York Daily News during the 1980s.

Initial Coverage and Personal Encounters

Timestamp: [02:00 - 04:47]

Kriegel describes his first assignment covering Tyson, starting with early morning visits to Dapper Dan’s in Harlem and progressing to covering Tyson’s tumultuous personal life, including his trial and relationships with figures like Robin Givens. He reflects on the evolution of his perception of Tyson—from viewing him as a notorious figure to recognizing his human complexities. A pivotal moment occurred in 2012 when Kriegel attended Tyson’s one-man show in Las Vegas. The raw and confessional nature of the performance moved Kriegel deeply, leading to a transformative encounter where Tyson acknowledged the emotional toll Kriegel's reporting had on him. This meeting marked the beginning of Kriegel’s newfound respect and understanding of Tyson as a real person rather than an abstract symbol of controversy.

Mark Kriegel: “To me, that was the day he became like fully human to me. Not an abstraction, a real, real guy.” ([03:30])

Decision to Author the Book

Timestamp: [04:51 - 05:49]

Despite initial reluctance, Kriegel decided to write the book after introspection and encouragement from a friend who emphasized his duty as a writer. He grappled with his past portrayal of Tyson in the media but ultimately recognized the importance of presenting a more balanced and humanized narrative. Kriegel acknowledges the complexities of Tyson’s life, including his battles with drugs, fame, and personal relationships, which he believes are critical to understanding Tyson’s true character.

Humanizing Mike Tyson: New Insights

Timestamp: [06:34 - 09:17]

Stephen A. Smith challenges Kriegel on what new information the book offers about Tyson, given that Tyson has been extensively covered in the media. Kriegel responds by emphasizing the book's focus on Tyson's humanity and the profound losses that shaped him, such as the death of his mother and his strained relationship with his father. He argues that these personal struggles add depth to Tyson’s public persona and provide a more comprehensive understanding of his motivations and actions.

Mark Kriegel: “I think you're going to find that, that he's a human being in this. And a lot of it has to do with excavating his past as, as an amateur, as a kid.” ([08:50])

Defining Moments and Transformation

Timestamp: [09:17 - 12:54]

Smith probes into the defining moments that led to Tyson’s transformation from a feared boxer to a more reflective and stable individual. Kriegel identifies key events such as Tyson losing a daughter, marrying Kiki, and achieving sobriety as pivotal in his reformation. He also discusses the influence of Cus D'Amato (referred to as "Cus" or "Customato" in the transcript), Tyson’s mentor, highlighting the complex relationship and the psychological strategies employed to mold Tyson into a champion.

Mark Kriegel: “Cus was famous for almost a theology of the bully. How do you beat a bully? When Ali was fighting Foreman, he consulted with Cus and d' Amato said, you run across the ring and you smack him in the mouth, hit him with the right hand.” ([12:00])

Kriegel reflects on the paradox of Tyson’s training under Cus D'Amato, where fostering an "animalistic" fighting style contributed to both Tyson's success and his internal struggles.

Ethical Considerations and Authorization

Timestamp: [12:54 - 14:29]

Smith raises concerns about whether Tyson authorized the book, to which Kriegel clarifies that Tyson did not formally authorize it. However, Kriegel emphasizes that he maintained respectful communication with Tyson, often seeking approval through Tyson’s wife, Kiki. He explains his approach was driven by a commitment to journalistic integrity rather than personal gain, differentiating this work from other biographical endeavors that might have commercial motivations.

Mark Kriegel: “I just was like, hey, let me do what I got to do. And he was okay. And that was more than I could have.” ([14:10])

Controversial Fights and Tyson’s Vulnerability

Timestamp: [14:29 - 17:04]

The discussion shifts to specific fights, notably Tyson’s bout against Michael Spinks. Kriegel provides an insider’s perspective on the psychological warfare and strategic decisions made during their encounters. He debates the portrayal of Spinks as overly cautious, arguing that Spinks made tactical errors that led to his defeat. This segment highlights the intricate dynamics of boxing matches and the emotional and psychological factors that influence fighters’ performances.

Mark Kriegel: “Eddie Futch had a plan. Mike fades after six rounds. Stick and move, stick and move. Have to be disciplined.” ([15:30])

Mike Tyson Today: A Reflection on Happiness and Redemption

Timestamp: [17:04 - 18:32]

In the concluding segment, Smith asks Kriegel to characterize Tyson’s current state of happiness and fulfillment. Kriegel responds optimistically, asserting that Tyson is happier than ever, attributing his contentment to personal achievements such as his marriage to Kiki and sobriety. He underscores the transformation Tyson has undergone, moving from a life marked by turmoil to one of love and stability.

Mark Kriegel: “Happier than he's ever been. And for the first time in his life, he's loved.” ([17:18])

Kriegel praises Tyson’s journey, suggesting that his story is a testament to resilience and the possibility of redemption, challenging the notion that Tyson was destined for a tragic end.

Conclusion

Stephen A. Smith wraps up the interview by expressing enthusiasm for Kriegel’s upcoming book, "Baddest Man: The Making of Mike Tyson," set to release on June 3rd. The conversation provides listeners with a deeper understanding of Mike Tyson’s multifaceted persona, highlighting his vulnerabilities, personal growth, and the enduring impact of his legacy in the world of boxing and beyond.

Notable Quotes

• Mark Kriegel: “To me, that was the day he became like fully human to me. Not an abstraction, a real, real guy.” ([03:30])

• Mark Kriegel: “I think you're going to find that, that he's a human being in this. And a lot of it has to do with excavating his past as, as an amateur, as a kid.” ([08:50])

• Mark Kriegel: “Cus was famous for almost a theology of the bully. How do you beat a bully? When Ali was fighting Foreman, he consulted with Cus and d' Amato said, you run across the ring and you smack him in the mouth, hit him with the right hand.” ([12:00])

• Mark Kriegel: “Happier than he's ever been. And for the first time in his life, he's loved.” ([17:18])

Final Thoughts

Mark Kriegel’s interview on The Stephen A. Smith Show offers a profound exploration of Mike Tyson’s life, moving beyond the sensational headlines to reveal the man behind the legend. Through personal anecdotes and in-depth analysis, Kriegel presents a balanced narrative that captures Tyson’s journey toward self-acceptance and happiness. For fans and newcomers alike, this episode serves as an enlightening primer for understanding Tyson’s enduring legacy.

Transcript

[Ryan Seacrest]

This is an iHeart podcast. ATT has a new guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed. Like getting through self checkout by yourself. Not guaranteed in a world where Nothing is guaranteed. AT&T is bringing something new to the table. AT&T is introducing a guarantee with connectivity you can depend on deals you want and service you deserve or they make it right. Learn [e-mail] guarantee@&t connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details.

[Tom Yamas]

The NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Down or NBC News.

[Mark Kriegel]

I'm Tom Brokaw. We hope to see you back here.

[Lester Holt]

I'm Lester Holt.

[Tom Yamas]

It's carried forward.

[Mark Kriegel]

Tom Yamas is there for us.

[Tom Yamas]

Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next, trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News. I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas evenings on NBC.

[Stephen A. Smith]

My next guest is an Emmy award winning television broadcaster and journalist and a New York Times best selling author of sports biographies on Pete Maravich, Joe Namath and Ray Boom Boom Mancini. He's out with a new book, Baddest man the Making of Mike Tyson. Please welcome my buddy. I haven't talked to him for a long time, but it's great to see him. The one and only Mark Kriegel is right here. What's up, big time? How are you, man? Long term, how you been?

[Mark Kriegel]

I'm good. It's great to see you too, man. The hardest working man in the sports business.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Just on the grind. Just on the grind, man. Let's get right to this because. Because there's a lot that's going on. You are a young reporter at the New York Daily News. In the 80s when you were swept up in the Mike Tyson hurricane per se, how did y' all meet? Let's get that out the way. How what was that like?

[Mark Kriegel]

My first tyson Assignment was CD editor. Me up about 4 in the morning, run up to Harlem, go to Dapper Dan's my wheel. What's Dapper Dan's like a club? No, it's a clothing store. Go get up there. And as you said, I got caught up in that, that swirl. A couple weeks later I get a call he had torn up the place in Bernardsville he was living with. Robin Givens. Write that I covered his trial, covered his fights. I didn't become columnist until 91. You remember when we met, we used to talk about basketball. You were covering high schools.

[Stephen A. Smith]

That's right.

[Mark Kriegel]

And, yeah, and, and I was, I was a city side reporter man. We talked about, like Fly Williams. I spent a lot of time in Brownsville as, as, as a police reporter. Anyway, I covered his stuff, but it wasn't until, I'm ashamed to say this, 2012, and he had been the villain in my column for years, both at the Post and the News. Wasn't until 2012 that I actually looked on him as something different. I covered his one man show in, in preview in Vegas. And it was not polished up yet. It was still raw. And I listened to it and it was fully confessional and eviscerating, but I found myself, like, holding back tears and this is a guy I just killed. I was having a bad day, like, well, I got Mike Tyson a bash and we met right after the show and I told him about, you know, Mitch and running around with all the Robin craziness. And he says to me, how'd that make you feel? And he was, I think, newly sober and vegan that time, or what? I didn't mean, I said, what do you mean? How did it make me feel? What was that like? And he meant, like chasing him around, thought about it and I thought about the, the adrenaline of it. And I told him it was like, it was, it was a form of getting high. And he nodded at me, not disapprovingly, but just in sort of recognition. And to me, that was the day he became like fully human to me. Not an abstraction, a real, real guy. And I, I did. The publisher broached this idea, would you do Tyson? Because I owe the publisher money on something else. And the publisher broached this idea and I was like, I do. Hell no, I ain't doing Tyson. Because my, my feeling has always been whether they cooperate with me or not, I don't care, but, but I have to love them. And I didn't love Mike Tyson. I kind of do now, but I didn't then. And I said, no, I ain't doing Mike Tyson. I torn my hamstring.

[Stephen A. Smith]

So what made. So what made you decide to do it? What made you decide to do it?

[Mark Kriegel]

I thought about him. I wasn't torn my hamstring. I'm not in my right mind. I'm thinking about it. I got a friend of mine says, you can't give money back to the publisher. It's your duty as a writer. I start thinking about, like, who I was then, who I am now. And I thought about that day in Vegas and what the guy had survived. And I wasn't necessarily wrong, but I was pretty pigheaded and vain about a lot of the stuff I wrote in the 90s. Not proud of all of it. And I started thinking about what he had survived. Foods, drugs, Brownsville. That, that whole generation of like stick up kids but just blown off the face of the earth got it. Boxing itself, fame. He was famous in a kind of way that will kill you. That, you know, that killed Elvis, that probably killed Tupac.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Yeah, but Mark, let me go here, let me go here. We thought we've heard everything about Mike Tyson. Like when you talk about drugs, fame, you know, alcohol, women, whatever it is, you know, we heard it all before in our eyes. What is it about Mike Tyson that we're gonna learn in this book that we don't already know? Considering the fact that he was an open book. He was on Front street in terms of the fame. We saw him doing his, his, his, you know, like you said in Vegas, Broadway and other places. Spike Lee was producing these one man shows. We seem to have known everything about him. What is it that we're going to learn? Give us a nugget of what we're going to learn in this book that we haven't already heard about Mike Tyson.

[Mark Kriegel]

I think to be human, human like, you know, there's, there's an incredible loss there that I don't think he can ever feel. I think probably the closest thing he came to feeling it is right now. He got his life right with, with Kiki, his wife. But you know, the loss of his mother was some, was a hole he couldn't fill. The relationship with his father. I think that the idea, the way that this fame was constructed, the way he was built as a fighter is still relevant today. He, he drew 100, 108 million people saw him. Live stream with Jake Paul. Jake Paul's pretty good promoter, but he could have only done that number with Tyson. The question is why? Why are we addicted to him? Why did he come back? Why was, you know, the, the third act of a fighter's life is almost inevitably the, the tragic one. He's disproved everything. So I think you're going to find that, that he's a human being in this. And a lot of it has to do with excavating his past as, as an amateur, as a kid. You know, I, I, there are certain things that, that run through this. One of the first people I spoke to was, was his brother, his half brother. Was running back at Purdue, quit, went off to go find himself. Really bright guy. And you could see certain things like that run through the. The Tyson family. First, the guy was a great athlete. Second of all, he was really, really bright and he was searching. And I think that was. That's not unlike Tyson. The other element to it, I think that there'll never be another fighter that comes up like this. He had literary cachet before. He had street cred. All the, all the writers, some of them great, some of them were like my, my rabbis, my teachers, guys like Pete Hamill were so in love with Customato that this fable, cussing the kid Ustamato was original trainer, took him out of a juvenile pension and saved him. You know, I, I think that there's something to that, that deserves more nuance, that deserves to be. Deserves to be looked at again. Go on.

[Stephen A. Smith]

What do you believe or when do you believe that Tyson, in your eyes, what was the point? When we talk about him being humanized, per se, he talked about needing to be animalistic, needing to be the kind of individual that he needed to be in order to be a boxing champion in the heavyweight division. When do you think the side, you know, where his humanity is being shown? Where do you think it hit? And does the book reveal that? Was it the whole Robin Givens affair? Was it having to deal with Don King? Was it the fact that he looked at his own mortality, particularly in the aftermath of losing to Evander Holyfield and biting Evander Holyfield's ear here? What was the defining moment for the transformation, per se, that you believe is in. Is in Mike Tyson's head, where he, he, he reached the point where he said, yo, I can't. I can't be this person anymore. I need to be better.

[Mark Kriegel]

I think, look, this book is the first of two volumes. This ends with, with, with the Sphinx fight. But I think it came, I think the Reformation, you know, the final blows came with losing a daughter, marrying Kiki and getting sober. But you talk about, you know, he, he talks about wanting and needing to be an animal. His words, not mine. But the, the irony, yes, is that Customado was. And this is, this is why I think the history needs to be re. Examined. Customato was famous for almost a theology of the bully. How do you beat a bully? When, when, when, when Ali was fighting Foreman, he consulted with Customato and it was d' Amato said, you run across the ring and you smack him in the mouth, hit him with the right hand. Okay. The irony is that Cus, whether By design or just happened. Cust raise might to be a bully. There's never been a guy that was that scared, scary. I mean, he was scared too. But the way that he used the fear to inflict on other fighters. There's a passage in the book, is a matchmaker, pretty good matchmaker named Ron Katz. And he remembers early in his career he'd have to push guys out of the dressing room in order to fight Tyson. So somewhere along the line, I mean, Customado was famous for making Floyd Patterson the youngest heavyweight champion. Until Mike, Until Mike Tyson, no one wanted anything to do with Sonny Liston. But somehow Mike became the Sonny Liston. And somehow, the way I think people wanted a Sonny Liston at that time, the rules changed. The other thing with cost. Let me just, if I could, one more thing about Cusp. And Mike pushed back on this with me. When I said, hey, maybe it's not like the smartest thing in the world to take a kid who's been in and out of spa, right, and put him under hypnosis and tell them you're going to be a scourge from God. I go, maybe that's not like the way, the way to do it. And I said to me, what Cus was asking you to do was make him live forever. It was a Faustian bargain. Make, make the coach immortal. And he's. And, you know, I think he credits Cusp with saving him and suddenly getting. He goes, well, well, didn't I, didn't I make him immortal? And yes, he did. My question is, at what price?

[Stephen A. Smith]

At what price? And that's a very legitimate question because I got to ask you this. First of all, did Mike Tyson authorize this book? So he did not.

[Mark Kriegel]

I don't.

[Stephen A. Smith]

You had these.

[Mark Kriegel]

Don't do it like that. I mean, we spoke a couple times to, to get some ground rules. He was not right. To me, he was very generous. You know, never been antagonistic. And you know, when people, typically, what would happen is people call, let me see if it's okay. I said, go call Kiki. She'll tell you if it's cool or not. And most of the time it was. Yes, we have the same, we have the same agent as it. As it happens. Okay, but anyway, I have to answer your question. No, but, but it was. Gave me everything I. Everything I needed.

[Stephen A. Smith]

No, but that's what I'm wondering. So if he's giving you everything that he need that you needed to write the book on him, why wouldn't he authorize it?

[Mark Kriegel]

I mean, What? I mean, I didn't want to be in business with him. I mean, I don't. I've never got any. In other words, like. Like, for instance, I want to do a book about Joe Namath. And I understand, like. Like, Joe thought of it in his world as. As a. As a licensing deal. He wanted money. He want. I don't want to be in business. Maravich had passed away. Mancini cooperated fully. I had no expectation that Mike Tyson understood retail, his life, you know, for Mark Kriegel, for free. I just was like, hey, let me do what I got to do. And he was okay. And that was more than I could have.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Totally understand. Totally. I said, did Mike Tyson ever speak about the Michael Spinks fight? Because if you remember, I know you remember this. I remember this. That I believe it was Butch Lewis, the late promoter got arrested. So I think it was him. Spinks was in the locker room crying because he had to come out and fight Mike Tyson. But Mike didn't know that. And he was punching walls because he thought that Spinks was, you know, using it as a delay tactic, when, in fact, it was sp. Was scared to death. Did Mike Tyson ever talk about that at all?

[Mark Kriegel]

No, no, no. It ends. It ends on that. That's a pretty well known incident. But he does. He does put his hand. He does put his hand through the wall, waiting. But there was a controversy because Butch Lewis started some stuff, thought he would get in Mike's head. Okay, And Bush Lewis comes back there and says, retape. He wants him to retake, because I ain't retaping anything. I'm God. And it gets into a whole thing with the New Jersey Athletic Commission. Yeah, there were reports that Spinks was scared by the way Spinks was like, no, Trump. Spinks was a great, courageous fighter.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Mark, you're talking to me. You're talking to me, Mark Spinks was a light heavyweight that moved up. He wasn't a natural heavyweight. Come on, Mike.

[Mark Kriegel]

No, no, but, but, but, but. Hold up. But, but here's the thing. Eddie Futch had a plan. Mike fades after six rounds. Stick and move, stick and move. Have to be disciplined. And Butch Lewis, the genius that he was, goes right across and tells michael, listen, man, forget that, man. You got to get your respect immediately. And that's what Spinks does. And that was. I mean, look, it was only a matter of time anyway. But Spinks runs across, tries to throw a right hand, and he just gets smoked because he went to engage immediately. He listened. He listened instead of listening To Eddie Fudge. You know, he might have had a shot for a little bit more.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Kriegel. I got to get my glasses because I don't see what the hell you saying in that. I didn't see Spink walk over to the ring and try to engage Mike. He looked scared from open and tap. I mean, he wasn't on his bicycle. But I'll be there if he tried to engage in Mike tight with Mike Tyson. Come on, now. I didn't see that.

[Mark Kriegel]

I'm not saying he wasn't scared. I'm not saying he wasn't scared. But he does go to engage him, and he tried and he tried. Even when he tries to get up, he comes right back after him and he's throwing the right hand when he receives the coup de grace.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Got you. Last question, because I got to get ready to go. And I can't wait to see this. I can't wait to read this book. I'm going to ask you this question in the end. Who is Mike Tyson today and is he happy?

[Mark Kriegel]

Happier than he's ever been? Happier than he's ever been. And for the first time in his life, he's loved. That's not anything that I could have imagined. I think the great victory and this is where people like I had been his consistent, you know, detractors or haters and people who adored him and even Mike himself could agree on. He was never supposed to belong for this world. His doom was like, that was the safest bet. You know, if you're going to bet Mike Tyson's life expectancy, you were going to bet the under. And here he is. He's below. And I think that's, that's really the beauty of the story. And it's a destination that, I mean, no one I know could have imagined. Wow.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Mark Kriegel, the baddest man. The Making of Mike Tyson is out tomorrow, June 3rd. Wherever you buy your books. Mark Krieger's, good to see you, man. It's been a long time, man. Happy to see you. Take it easy. All right, all right. One only. Mark Krieger right here with Stephen A.

[Ryan Seacrest]

T has a new guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed, like getting through self checkout by yourself. Not guaranteed. In a world where Nothing is guaranteed, AT&T is bringing something new to the table. AT&T is introducing a guarantee with connectivity you can depend on deals you want and service you deserve, or they make it right. Learn more at@&t.com guarantee@&t. Connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details.

[Lester Holt]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

This is an iHeart podcast.