Stephen A. Smith (4:14)

Game one and two in your eyes, more about what the Knicks are in terms of their clutch, Knowing that a guy like Jalen Brunson and clutch time has outscored the entire Celtics team by 1412? Or is it about a diminished product that we're seeing in a reigning defending NBA champions, that is the Boston Celtics. I know what Tatum brings. I know what Brown brings. They're both $300 million plus plays. You got new ownership in Boston. They're going to have to make decisions about the future. You've articulated all of those things very clearly over the last few days or so, but are we seeing a diminished Boston Celtics or just a team suffering a hiccup that's expected to get it together this weekend?

Brian Windhorst (4:54)

Very savvy question. I think the answer is both. I think you see a Knicks team that is extremely confident when they get into the end of a close game. Jalen Brunson, he. He is so calm when he's under pressure. It's crazy. Like, he gets into tough situations when he's Got a live dribble and you're like, how's he getting out of this one? And he does, you know, they, they put a 6, 9 guy on him and you're like, how's he getting out of this one? He gets open. He is, he's got. He is at the top of his game, at the top of his confidence level, and it's a master at work. So that's absolutely happening. But also the Celtics are diminished. One, I think their confidence is shaken. I think you see in some of the decisions that Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown make at the end of these games. And two, they don't have Porzingis. Porzingis isn't right. And that's probably the most unpredictable thing in this series. What's gonna happen with Poisonous, Because Porzingis, I wouldn't say he was their curveball because he could hit you with the right hook. I would say he was like their slider. And especially if you were having difficulty, you know, scoring from the perimeter, you know, yeah, he's, he's a deadly outside shooter, but, you know, you can throw it to him in the post and he can say 7 foot 3, he can turn around and cause problems.

Stephen A. Smith (6:13)

Let me stop you right there with Por Zingus, because I heard you on the air talking the other day. You on air with me, you on air with get up on espn talking about how you. You spoke to Porzingis. He doesn't know what's going on, but just flatline fatigue is kicked in. And I'm just looking at numbers here. In two regular season games against the Knicks this season, he's averaged 24 and a half points on 50% shooting from the field, 45% shooting from three point range. In his playoff series against the Knicks, he's got a total of eight points on three or nine shooting on one for one on a three pointer, one free throw attempt, no blocks, eight rebounds and 27 minutes total. He clearly has been a virtual no show because he just hasn't been on the court for the Boston Celtics. Do we know specifically what is wrong with Porzingis?

Brian Windhorst (6:56)

We don't. He was. He got sick in February. He tried to fight through it for a while, then they ended up shutting him down and they started, you know, calling him questionable. And all of a sudden he's out three weeks, eight games he missed. And when he came back, he said they couldn't diagnose it and they were having. He was having a real hard time with fatigue. I think initially they said it was like A. Upper respiratory. And so you're thinking you're seeing a guy who's coughing, you know, runny nose, etc. That's. He doesn't, he doesn't come off sick. He may have wind issues. There may be a lung thing for sure. I'm not saying that's not true. He doesn't look like a guy who's got the flu. But what he's having a big problem with, from what he says is fatigue. He crashes. And I think he had been in it, by the way, when he came back from that time away, he, his first five games, he was really good. Like, it looked like, okay, he's past it. You're talking about stats in this series. He was terrible against Orlando. Terrible is not a fair word. He was, he was not productive against Orlando, certainly not to his, to his normal level. And in game one, he was fighting it. It really came back in game one of this series. In the halftime, he just, he didn't have energy. And so they brought him off the bench in game two, Stephen A. And, and the reason they brought him off the bench is because I think they're trying to save his energy. So what I think they're hoping is he gets two days to rest before game three and he can recover. But he has had. He, he referred to it as a big crash that he was managing it, and then all of a sudden, one big crash that's obviously concerning.

Stephen A. Smith (8:40)

I need two quick answers to this, to these two questions. If the Boston Celtics lose this series, what will it mean for this franchise?

Brian Windhorst (8:49)

I don't know because I don't know what the new owner's appetite for spending is. I know that this is a team that has proven to be a championship team, that if they hold it together, I would say they would come out next year and be a top three team to win it again. It's also going to cost $500 million. And here's the thing. It'd be one thing if you owned the Boston. The guys who bought the Boston Celtics have owned it since 2001, 2002, they paid a couple hundred million dollars for it. If it's not paid off, I'm sure it probably is very close to paid off. They. At the end of the day, you know, they're not paying a massive mortgage on the team. So if you have to pay 500 million and you lose a couple hundred million, that's one thing. You're dealing with a couple hundred million dollars loss. Now, if you're buying the team for 6 billion they're actually buying 50% of the team for about 3 billion. You have to write a 3 billion dollar check, however you're getting that money. This is not Steve Ballmer buying the team. Steve Ballmer, when he bought the Clippers, literally said, here is a cashier's check for $2 billion. He didn't borrow money. He's like, here you go. That's not the case here. These guys are leveraging to get this, which is not. I'm not. I mean a ton of money. So now they're going to have a mortgage payment. So imagine you're in a house and you don't and you own the house outright. No mortgage payment. Now you've now bought the house. You bought a new house that's 30 times the price. You got a big mortgage payment due every month. Now if I tell you that the house costs a bunch of money to operate and everything like that, now you're making two payments. You're paying for the operation of the house and you're paying the mortgage payment. That's what's coming for the Celtics ownership. I don't know what they're going to do. They have not. Because the deal isn't closed. They're not.

Stephen A. Smith (10:30)

Got it.

Brian Windhorst (10:32)

So I don't know, but I know this $500 million is a lot of money. That's not just like an inconvenience that you get. You're going to have to pay for a payroll.

Stephen A. Smith (10:41)

The Knicks win this series, how far can they go?

Brian Windhorst (10:46)

STEPHEN A. If the Pacers get. Get two more wins over the Cavs and the Knicks get home court, I realize they've been better on the road than home. The Knicks get home court against the Pacers. Hey, man, they went to seven games against the Pacers last year when Og Anunoby was out and Jalen, you know, got. Got hurt. That's a. That's a. I think the Knicks would be favored in that series, depending on everybody's health. I mean, it would be tight. The Pacers have been really good. Maybe it's a toss up, but considering that the Knicks were. The Knicks, in my view, had the toughest draw in the league because they were looking at. For them to win, they were looking at Detroit. Gotta be Boston without. Well, Detroit for sure.

Stephen A. Smith (11:25)

Detroit and Boston.

Brian Windhorst (11:27)

Boston without home court. Then you're thinking Cleveland without home court. Then maybe Oklahoma City without home court. Talk about a gauntlet. If they get into a series against the, the Pacers where it's a toss up series that they have home courted where they're playing well. It's one of the greatest turnarounds in situations that you could ever see in an NBA playoff setting.

Stephen A. Smith (11:49)

What about the Indiana Pacers? Real quick, for a second, how surprised are you that they've looked this good? I know there's been injuries. DeAndre Hunter, Evan Mobley, Darius Garland didn't play in game two. They got a pivotal game three coming up tonight. No doubt about it, they got to win this game. But still, in all, we can't take away from what we've seen from the Indiana Pacers, who closed out, you know, Milwaukee. And not only did you do that, but we saw Tyrese Halliburton actually speak up against his own father because of how his father acted in Giannis's face. We didn't talk about that. And now here they are. Halliburton, who was voted quietly privately by no name players who wouldn't attach their name to it as being overrated. He's balling out to me. They have no one great, but a whole bunch of dudes that are really, really good and they can beat anybody at this point. Real quickly, that's my synopsis of the Indiana Pacers. What's yours?

Brian Windhorst (12:42)

They have somebody great. It's their coach. He's a great coach and he's a great playoff coach for Carlisle.

Stephen A. Smith (12:48)

Yes, he is.

Brian Windhorst (12:49)

They lost on on New Year's Eve to go to 16 and 18. Halliburton was hurting early. They had some other injuries since January 1st. They finished the season 34 and 14. That was not a four seed. That was a two seed masquerading as a four seed. That was 58 win pace that they played on that that from January 1st. They have depth, they have speed, they have a style of play and they have a closer and they have proven that they can pull it out their backside. They have twice been down seven points in the last minute of a game it in the playoffs. So maybe that's a little bit fortune there, but they are formidable, formidable team.

Stephen A. Smith (13:28)

Moving out to the West. How nervous were you about Oklahoma City? You've been raving about them all year. When they lost game one, when Jokic did what he did, when we see Russell Westbrook playing the way that he played, when we saw Aaron Gordon playing bully ball, how nervous were you for your thunder before they annihilated the Nuggets in Game 2?

Brian Windhorst (13:46)

There were two things about that first game that were worrisome. Number one, they couldn't get any supporting scoring for Shay Gildas Alexander, by the way, he he had a great game, too. Shea has not had a good postseason so far. This is a guy who's going to be named MVP probably next week. His numbers are okay, but they weren't great. That's what, that's. That's one thing. Secondly, so that. And then they don't have a second score that's reliable. Sometimes they have a second score, but they don't have a guy out there that they can count on to deliver. And that's what cost him in game one. The second thing was Chet Holmgren got totally dominated by Jokic. And I mean, obviously Holmgren can't play Jokic the same way Vita Zubac plays him. They're not built the same same way. But three times in the last couple of years, the Thunder have been in high leverage situations and come up small. One was in the playoffs last year to the Mavericks. They had home court in that series. The series was tied. They melted down the chest of that series total. Their offense completely abandoned them and Luka snatched them. And then this year in the in season tournament where they played Milwaukee, where they just absolutely laid an egg, that was a moment for them to win something as a group. They totally laid an egg then in game one, losing home court advantage out of the gate. So I've seen them under pressure all of a sudden, not be able to score when it matters, and they have the mvp. That shouldn't be the case. So those more pressure moments are coming and I expect them to overcome that because they are. They have every tool that you need. But there is that sense of mystery about how it's going to happen. What's going to happen when that challenge occurs again.

Stephen A. Smith (15:17)

Switching over to Warriors, Timberwolves. Obviously we're looking at them. Steph Curry's gonna be out with the strained hamstring. The likelihood is that for at least games three and four and, and possibly game five, what do you peel away? You saw the warriors win in game one. You saw Steph Curry score 13 points in the first 13 minutes before he goes down. We saw Draymond Green hit four three pointers in the first half. We saw Jimmy Butler come on strong in the second half. We saw none of that in game two after Finch held Anthony Edwards accountable. We saw McDaniels show up. We saw Julius Randle show up. We saw Ant man show up. And the three have combined to hold Jimmy Butler to like 13% shooting from the field when one of those three are guarding him. So what do you make of this series thus far at this particular moment.

Brian Windhorst (16:09)

There's two things that have got to happen. One, Jimmy Butler has got to be more of an offensive engine. They can't score without Steph. Offensive efficiency plummets by like 25ish percent when he hasn't been out there. They just can't survive that. I understand. They're not going to totally replace him. That's clear. Jimmy. Jimmy's got to be more of a factor offensively, scoring the ball. The second thing is this team, after the Jimmy Butler trade was a good defensive team. Their defensive numbers improved. And in game one, they won that game because not because of what they did without Steph, because they only gave up 88 points. Now, some of that was the Wolves. They didn't handle their business that well and that's why Chris Finch got on them. But in game two, the Wolves made 16 three pointers and ESPN's tracking said that every single one of them were deemed open. There's no other game in the database in the playoff history where a team has gotten 16 all 16 three pointers or 16 or more three pointers open. They've got to play better defense. The only way to do this is to pinch it from both ends. You've got to play your max level defense and you've got to get some more scoring. That's how you close the gap in this situation. They don't have to do it three more times. They're not winning this series without Steph anyway. They need to do it one more time at least at home, probably in Games 3 or 4, to give the window for Steph to come back in game five or six and give them a fighting chance and what's hopefully a.

Stephen A. Smith (17:38)

Three game series switching to Draymond Green, Obviously he made news for a different reason. And I appreciate your participation in the discussion with myself and Mike Wilbon on, on ESPN's First Take earlier this morning. And I'm certainly not asking you to elaborate on his comments about being portrayed as an angry black man. I took care of that in the first segment at the top of this show. But what I wanted to ask you is that in terms of Draymond Green's image, in your estimation, as somebody who covers this league and as somebody who walks the streets with people coming up to you about what you know about this league, what would you qualify or classify as the perception that Draymond Green has and how fair or unfair do you think it is?

Brian Windhorst (18:29)

I think people in the league feel like he's one of the great defensive players of the last 25 years one of the great influencers. Influencers of the game where he can control the game, especially for a guy who is not a scorer. His ability to control the game without being a scorer have a big influence on the control of the game because of his screen setting, because of the way he can defend, because of the way he can take the, you know, take the ball off the glass, go down and be the point center. The way he can play two man basketball with Steph, where they're just basically reading each other. They're impossible to prepare for because when the two of them are working together, it's just read and react, read and react. And he's just such. He's so quick on his feet and so smart and makes him so savvy. And people in the league think that he savilly controls the officials, that he's sly like a fox in the way he does things and the way he applies pressure to the officials and the way he is so demonstrative. And they feel like there are many times when he can manipulate the officials to sort of lean them in one way or the other because of the way he behaves. That yes, there are times when he loses control, but a lot of it is totally calculated that what he is doing is putting the officials into a corner to achieve a certain edge. There is an admiration for him within the league for that. However, he also loses control for as. As savvy and nuanced of the game that he plays. There are times when that all goes out the window. He loses control, which has happened unfortunately a number of times. This is a guy who I think there's no chance the warriors win the 2022 title without him. He was absolutely brilliant during that season and in that playoff run. I know he had a complicated finals where I think he got benched at one point, but he was brilliant in the closeout game. No way they win without. No way they went with that. And so the 2026 title, Draymond's got both hands on that ring and he. He derailed the 2023 season by sucker punching his teammate and he damaged the 2024 season by suspensions that that forced. That ended up significantly forcing the warriors into the play in and obviously his role in the other in the previous three titles is unquestioned. But just in the last three seasons he's carried, not carried, but like stood shoulder to shoulder with Steph to win the title and undercut two seasons. And this year he's working hard. We're going to find out which way it's going to go. And, you know, the Warrior's eyes are wide open. They totally understand what it means to be in business with Draymond Green. They've. They've dedicated themselves and protected them and rededicated themselves over and over. But that is the dynamic player that you're getting. A guy who is a genius and brilliant, who also can do things that can hurt you badly that he can't take back.

Stephen A. Smith (21:25)

What about what he said coming into this series, if not the playoffs overall, where he said he sat down and spoke with Steve Kerr, he spoke to his family, and he had to do some reflection, looking at himself and thinking about what he needed to do better. Where did that come from? If we're sitting here today and he's going off about how he's being portrayed.

Brian Windhorst (21:46)

We'Ve heard it all before. You know, he did a story with, at espn, our warriors reporter, Om Young Masook, where he detailed after he was suspended indefinitely for the Rudy Gobert incident last year. They made him go to, like, essentially counseling sessions. But it wasn't just with a counselor. It was with a whole bunch of different people who basically acted as a village for him, and he didn't want to do it, and he was annoyed by it. And he discussed how it really helped him and how he started to lean on it. And it was a beautifully done story, giving insight into Draymond's thinking and how he's trying to better himself. And you come away from that story saying this is very earnest, raw, and impersonal view of how he's fighting his challenges. And then he goes out there and commits five technicals and two flagrants in nine games. And so you can see why the people closest to Draymond have complicated relationships with the situation. They treasure him, they love him, they protect him, and he absolutely drives them crazy, and he absolutely leads them to victory. He's one of the more complicated, great players of this generation.

Stephen A. Smith (22:59)

Before we go, if I tell you I'm going to give you the series, and you tell me what, what you believe it will be after four games. Cleveland, Indiana, three.

Brian Windhorst (23:09)

One.

Stephen A. Smith (23:09)

Indiana, Knicks, Boston.

Brian Windhorst (23:12)

Two. Two. I'm gonna duck. I'm gonna duck. I'm two blocks in the garden. I'm gonna duck. The Knicks fans are gonna be so angry.

Stephen A. Smith (23:19)

You think you're telling me you believe that the Boston Celtics are walking into Madison Square Garden and they're gonna win. They're gonna take both games in Madison Square Garden away from the New York Knicks? Is that what you just said? Is that what you just said, Brian, went to us.

Brian Windhorst (23:31)

I don't believe it, but I think that's what's going to happen. I don't believe it because I do believe in the Knicks ability. Every way I know to evaluate the game is saying to me that the Celtics should be winning these games, but they're not. So I look at it and say the Celtics could very easily be up too low. And my, my analysis side of my brain says the Celtics will win the Knicks 2. Knowing everything that I know, but I have to admit, I can't quite identify why the Knicks won games one and two. So the analysis side of everything is being defeated. And that's what is happening for the whole Celtics organization right now, that their analytical analysis philosophy is being defeated by the knicks Confidence.

Stephen A. Smith (24:25)

Okay, OKC Denver 3 1.

Brian Windhorst (24:30)

I'm sorry, I think it'll be 2, 2 going back to OKC.

Stephen A. Smith (24:35)

He's gonna go, they're gonna split in Denver.

Brian Windhorst (24:37)

I know. I, I, Game three is going to tell me everything. I, you know, Oklahoma City could win by 25 and you're like, okay, this is a five game series, but I think Denver has to press very hard in Game 3. And if, if Denver pulls that out, then I think you're looking at 2, 2. That the Oklahoma City losing game one at home opened the door for that to be a long series. Assuming that they can get one more at home.

Stephen A. Smith (25:05)

Minnesota, Golden State.

Brian Windhorst (25:10)

Sorry to say, but I got three. One Minnesota. I was so, just, I was so disheartened by their effort in game two. They are going home. They could get a hot shooting game. I mean, that's the thing about the Knicks. The Knicks haven't shot the ball well yet. You know, the Knicks can undo any analysis by just getting hot. You can get hot at home, but I'm leaning more towards Minnesota 3. Minnesota is 22 and 5 in its last 27 games. They are playing really well, just like Indiana is playing really well.

Stephen A. Smith (25:42)

Brian Wentos. Appreciate you, man. Keep up the great work. We'll talk next week.

Brian Windhorst (25:46)

All right, thanks for having me. Have a great weekend.

Stephen A. Smith (25:49)

You do the same. One and only Bryan Windross right here on the Stephen A. Smith show over the digital airwaves of YouTube and of course, iHeartRadio.

Brian Windhorst (26:03)

New out of nowhere obstacles. New all or nothing moments. New less than likely triumphs. Season two of the Unshakeables podcast has it all. Hi, I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business and host of the show. We're excited to bring you more inspiring stories from small business owners who share the what are we gonna do? Moments that ended up changing everything. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JPMorgan Chase & Co. AT&T has a new guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed, like getting through self checkout by yourself. Not guaranteed in a world where Nothing is guaranteed. AT&T is bringing something new to the table. AT&T is introducing a guarantee with connectivity you can depend on, deals you want and service you deserve or they make it right. Learn more@att.com guarantee@&t connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details.

Stephen A. Smith (27:18)

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